(00:00:00):
My husband engaged in sexual coercion for the majority of our relationship with

(00:00:04):
constant fights about frequency,

(00:00:06):
weaponizing moods,

(00:00:07):
not taking no for an answer,

(00:00:08):
withholding his participation in other areas of our relationship.

(00:00:12):
You know, typical shit women are taught to accept.

(00:00:15):
This resulted in scheduled and obligatory one-sided sex one to two times a week for

(00:00:20):
over 10 years.

(00:00:21):
As you can imagine, my libido tanked.

(00:00:24):
And of course it was my fault and my problem.

(00:00:26):
So I did what a lot of women do and I started researching.

(00:00:30):
This is when I figured out what sexual coercion was.

(00:00:33):
When I explained this to my husband,

(00:00:34):
instead of validating me,

(00:00:36):
he fell apart realizing that he hurt me and immediately became insecure.

(00:00:41):
He started love bombing me and seeking my reassurance that I wouldn't leave him.

(00:00:45):
And yet during this time,

(00:00:47):
the obligatory sex was still taking place because he was craving even more

(00:00:51):
connection with me to soothe his anxiety.

(00:00:54):
During one of these one-sided acts, he blurted out, I love you.

(00:00:58):
It's hard to describe the disgust I felt in that moment,

(00:01:01):
how used I felt,

(00:01:02):
and the fact that he thought any part of it was love was sickening.

(00:01:05):
I started crying and he realized his mistake.

(00:01:08):
He wanted to stop.

(00:01:10):
And here's where the story takes a turn.

(00:01:11):
I couldn't stop.

(00:01:13):
In my mind, I heard him, but I kept going in desperation.

(00:01:16):
I made him come because I knew if I didn't, it wouldn't count against his number for the week.

(00:01:21):
He would ask again, we would fight again, and I would have to do it all over again.

(00:01:26):
and so now my hands are no longer clean.

(00:01:29):
Anytime sexual violence comes up,

(00:01:30):
whether it's mine or women's in general,

(00:01:33):
he talks about his pain and how unseen he feels.

(00:01:36):
We have talked about my assault of him multiple times now,

(00:01:39):
where I took responsibility and apologized,

(00:01:42):
but I bet you can guess how many times we've talked about the sexual coercion.

(00:01:46):
Hi, I'm Zahn Valines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast.

(00:01:51):
And I'd just like to add to our opening vignette that this wasn't 10 years of coercion.

(00:01:55):
It was 10 years of rape.

(00:01:56):
Coercion is just a nicer word for rape.

(00:01:59):
It's enraging.

(00:02:01):
It's easy to feel so much rage for so many male behaviors.

(00:02:05):
And that is why today we are talking about misandry,

(00:02:08):
man-hating,

(00:02:09):
and whether or not I hate men,

(00:02:11):
as well as whether or not we're allowed to hate men.

(00:02:14):
We'll walk through this short and stupid history of misandry.

(00:02:17):
And at the end, we'll air some letters from our liberating motherhood complaint box.

(00:02:21):
As always,

(00:02:22):
I'd like to encourage you,

(00:02:23):
if you like this podcast,

(00:02:24):
to support it by leaving a positive review on your favorite podcast platform,

(00:02:29):
heart-reacting it on Substack,

(00:02:30):
and sharing it on social media and with your loved ones.

(00:02:33):
These actions really do make a difference.

(00:02:35):
They help the podcast succeed, and I'm very grateful if you do them.

(00:02:39):
I am here today with my husband, Jeff.

(00:02:41):
Hey, I'm Jeff.

(00:02:42):
I'm Zahn's husband.

(00:02:43):
I am here in support of her mission to destroy all things ill in society,

(00:02:49):
starting with a patriarch.

(00:02:52):
Starting with this specific dude.

(00:02:55):
Yeah.

(00:02:57):
Yeah, so I'm a sometimes guest on this podcast.

(00:02:59):
Not my podcast.

(00:03:01):
So I'm just here to fill in some gaps.

(00:03:04):
The only man who will ever be on this podcast, by the way.

(00:03:08):
So, Jeff, do I hate men?

(00:03:11):
Uh...

(00:03:13):
No.

(00:03:14):
Yes.

(00:03:18):
I wasn't ready for that question.

(00:03:20):
Not all men.

(00:03:21):
Hashtag.

(00:03:26):
No, you don't hate every man, if that's the question.

(00:03:29):
Is that the question?

(00:03:31):
I don't know.

(00:03:32):
I think that's the real question, is what do people mean when they talk about women hating men?

(00:03:36):
Are they saying that we hate all men because that's an easily...

(00:03:40):
disputed thing are they saying that hating some men is the same as hating all men

(00:03:45):
we're not allowed to hate any men it's a totally amorphous allegation are you

(00:03:50):
saying that you hate the qualities of men like their propensity for violence i hate

(00:03:55):
the guy in our opening vignette he sounds like a real simp so jeff's using that

(00:04:02):
word because of something that's in our complaint box at the end which we'll uh

(00:04:06):
we'll get to

(00:04:07):
No, he does, though.

(00:04:08):
I mean, someone who complains about being the victim when they're not the victim.

(00:04:12):
That's pretty fucking weak.

(00:04:15):
Anyway, how did all this misandry stuff start?

(00:04:19):
OK, so as I said, we're talking about misandry today.

(00:04:23):
And the reason that I wanted to talk about this is this comes up over and over again.

(00:04:31):
everywhere I publish anything.

(00:04:33):
And it's always men accusing women of misandry,

(00:04:37):
and then women assuring men that they're not misandrous.

(00:04:42):
And this detracting away from whatever the original discussion was.

(00:04:45):
And this is not an accident.

(00:04:48):
This is just another really ineffective and foolish rhetorical trick that men use.

(00:04:55):
So I decided that I was going to research the history of misandry a little bit.

(00:04:59):
And I thought that I would have like

(00:05:01):
hundreds of years of information and like there would be like misandrist

(00:05:05):
revolutions i should have known better because there weren't there aren't um so the

(00:05:12):
misandrist term didn't really start being used until the late 19th century uh and

(00:05:17):
that's when an article in the spectator used it to refer to suffragettes so from

(00:05:23):
the very beginning misandry was a term used to deride and silence feminists maybe

(00:05:28):
we should explain what a suffragette is

(00:05:30):
Yeah, maybe we should.

(00:05:31):
It's people who think women should get to vote.

(00:05:34):
That's some real man-hating.

(00:05:36):
I mean, yeah, I just can't even.

(00:05:39):
Because there are lots of people now who think that women should not be able to vote.

(00:05:43):
Yeah, there are.

(00:05:44):
And they're the same people who call me a misandrist and who would call the

(00:05:47):
suffragists misandrist.

(00:05:48):
So, yeah, it developed not because there was...

(00:05:54):
some sort of misandrist movement.

(00:05:56):
It developed not as a way to discuss men's issues.

(00:05:59):
It was cultivated solely as a way to deride and silence women.

(00:06:05):
Thereafter,

(00:06:05):
journalists sometimes used it as analogous to feminist,

(00:06:09):
as a way to silence feminists,

(00:06:11):
as a way to detract from any critiques they might have.

(00:06:15):
Misandry has never been a standalone claim.

(00:06:18):
It's always been about getting women to stop talking about male violence and women

(00:06:23):
because we are

(00:06:24):
socialized to behave logically and reasonably and to make coherent,

(00:06:31):
cohesive arguments,

(00:06:32):
we respond to this.

(00:06:34):
When someone tells us that we're a misandrist,

(00:06:36):
we respond and we say,

(00:06:37):
here are the reasons that I'm not.

(00:06:39):
We very calmly and rationally argue with the man who just keeps insisting that

(00:06:43):
we're misandrist because men have learned that all they have to do to silence women

(00:06:48):
is to just say this shit.

(00:06:49):
Where have I seen that dynamic play out in a different context?

(00:06:54):
race yep yeah reactions to to uh any civil rights movement yeah all lives matter

(00:07:03):
don't you care about white people yep yep it's a way of silence it's always a way

(00:07:09):
of silence why isn't there white history month the group with the power claims that

(00:07:13):
the group who's complaining about unequal treatment hates them and is trying to

(00:07:17):
take away their rights

(00:07:20):
So I did find this anthropologist,

(00:07:21):
David Gilmour,

(00:07:22):
and I didn't dig very deeply into his research.

(00:07:25):
So if he's a terrible monster, then you'll have to accept my apologies for that.

(00:07:32):
But he argues that misandry is about hatred of the male gender role and of the ways

(00:07:36):
that men are socialized rather than of men.

(00:07:39):
So misandry is about hating toxic masculinity.

(00:07:43):
And under that definition, I think we should all be misandrous.

(00:07:45):
I think we should proudly claim that title.

(00:07:49):
Because in patriarchal masculinity, violence and abuse of women are completely normalized.

(00:07:53):
And that is effectively what the male gender role is.

(00:07:56):
The male gender role is

(00:07:58):
abuse of women while pretending to be the victim,

(00:08:00):
just like this piece of shit in our opening vignette.

(00:08:04):
One in three men now admit to engaging in intimate partner abuse, and that's just who admit it.

(00:08:10):
We know that the number is much higher.

(00:08:12):
32% of college-aged men say they'd rape a woman if they could get away with it,

(00:08:17):
and about a quarter admit to raping a woman before they graduate college.

(00:08:22):
I don't know a single woman who hasn't been abused in some way by a man.

(00:08:27):
Most of the women I know have been abused by multiple men and have not had any

(00:08:32):
period of their life during which they weren't being abused by at least one man.

(00:08:37):
So yeah, I'm a misandrist and I do hate men as a class if this is what men are doing.

(00:08:42):
Well, and you had some recent survey results that you showed me about partner violence.

(00:08:47):
Yeah.

(00:08:47):
So I'm doing a survey right now.

(00:08:49):
Um,

(00:08:51):
By the time this comes out, I will no longer be collecting data on that survey.

(00:08:56):
And I'll be releasing the survey results in early September, but I'm currently collecting data.

(00:09:03):
And it's just a survey about women's experiences and their romantic relationships with men.

(00:09:08):
And one of the problems with...

(00:09:10):
Data on violence against women is that it's never very specific,

(00:09:15):
and it often uses language that discourages women from reporting honestly.

(00:09:20):
And of course, we can't trust men to honestly report that they are violent.

(00:09:25):
Researchers just designed these studies very poorly.

(00:09:29):
Sometimes it seems intentional, like they don't want to capture the full scope of male abuse.

(00:09:34):
So I've done my own surveys.

(00:09:36):
And, you know, I'm not a statistician.

(00:09:38):
I'm not a researcher.

(00:09:39):
I don't pretend that they're scientific.

(00:09:40):
But I sure do have a large sample of a lot of different kinds of women.

(00:09:44):
And what I keep finding is that abuse of women is rampant.

(00:09:49):
So in my current survey, as of now, 75% of women...

(00:09:56):
have been in at least one physically violent relationship with a man at some point

(00:10:02):
during their life.

(00:10:04):
And I think it was 60% of women reported having been raped by an intimate partner.

(00:10:11):
And like 96% of women reported having at least one abusive relationship with a man.

(00:10:19):
And when I asked how many men had abused these women, the average number of women

(00:10:25):
gave me was that 11 men had abused them over the course of their lives and I just

(00:10:31):
how can men talk to the women in their lives who do tell them about these

(00:10:36):
experiences and come away feeling aggrieved how can they hear this and think oh I'm

(00:10:41):
the victim how can this fucking dude coerce his wife into sex for 10 fucking years

(00:10:48):
and then she has to comfort him

(00:10:51):
How?

(00:10:51):
Why?

(00:10:52):
Like, why?

(00:10:53):
Why are we OK with this?

(00:10:55):
And why do we feel like we have to defend ourselves against claims of misandry?

(00:11:00):
Every man should have to defend himself against a claim of being a rapist.

(00:11:04):
That should be our default assumption with men,

(00:11:07):
since all of the data shows it's more likely than not.

(00:11:11):
Well, at least men's violence is limited to intimate partner violence.

(00:11:14):
Oh, yeah.

(00:11:14):
Yeah.

(00:11:15):
It's totally safe.

(00:11:16):
The women are doing the mass shootings.

(00:11:17):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:11:19):
And it's women who are hitting on women in parking lots,

(00:11:23):
who are taking children to islands and sexually assaulting them.

(00:11:27):
You know, at least, you know.

(00:11:29):
Well, look, one person is in prison for Jeffrey Epstein's.

(00:11:35):
And it's a woman.

(00:11:37):
It's a woman.

(00:11:37):
Isn't that fucking typical?

(00:11:39):
Yeah.

(00:11:40):
Yeah.

(00:11:43):
so yeah but um but sure i don't hate men because it's terrible to hate men not to

(00:11:48):
say she shouldn't be in prison yeah she should be in prison obviously she should be

(00:11:52):
joined by two dozen at least you know this is i mean this is not the first time

(00:11:58):
that this has happened that there's been you know mass abuse of women by a group of

(00:12:03):
men and then the only person who is punished is a woman um

(00:12:08):
men commit acts of violence against women with near total impunity.

(00:12:13):
And I think our opening vignette is like a really good example of,

(00:12:17):
of that dynamic that this man,

(00:12:19):
this man probably doesn't even actually feel like a victim.

(00:12:23):
He's just faking it so that he can extract more sex from her so that he can rape her even more.

(00:12:28):
It's a way of shutting anything down.

(00:12:30):
You know, it's, it's, um, uh, what is it?

(00:12:33):
The, the, you did it to argument.

(00:12:35):
Uh, yeah.

(00:12:37):
Um,

(00:12:38):
Whataboutism, I guess.

(00:12:40):
Yeah.

(00:12:40):
But no, it's just that.

(00:12:42):
I mean,

(00:12:42):
it's just from the playbook of like you find something that you can always use

(00:12:46):
against the person and then you always use against them.

(00:12:49):
You always use that against them anytime something comes up.

(00:12:54):
So sort of logically,

(00:12:55):
this misandry argument,

(00:12:58):
when men accuse women of hating men,

(00:13:01):
they either mean that women hate all men,

(00:13:05):
That women unfairly... And who gives a shit if they do?

(00:13:08):
Yeah, that women unfairly judge men.

(00:13:11):
Who gives a shit if they do?

(00:13:13):
Or that women hate men who are bad.

(00:13:15):
Like, those are really the only three things they could possibly mean.

(00:13:18):
And none of them are really relevant to any argument.

(00:13:23):
And as far as women,

(00:13:24):
like,

(00:13:25):
prejudging men,

(00:13:26):
what I see with women over and over again is aggressively giving men the benefit of

(00:13:30):
the doubt.

(00:13:32):
Yeah, I mean, that's how...

(00:13:33):
That's how men get the opportunity to do a lot of what they do because a lot of

(00:13:37):
their violence occurs in the context of intimate relationships.

(00:13:45):
So in my feminism,

(00:13:47):
women can hate all the bad things about men and hate all the bad things about

(00:13:53):
masculinity and still have individual men that they care about and not unfairly

(00:13:59):
judge men.

(00:14:00):
But to be clear, women don't have to have men who they care about.

(00:14:07):
Whether a woman has men in her life who she cares about is really irrelevant to any

(00:14:12):
argument she might make or to any

(00:14:14):
sharing of her experience that she might do.

(00:14:18):
I think that what's really going on here is that men who view feminism as

(00:14:25):
fundamental fundamentally about hating men are men who see women's rights as a

(00:14:33):
personal threat.

(00:14:34):
They see men and women as fundamentally in opposition to one another.

(00:14:41):
And so naturally when their enemy,

(00:14:44):
women,

(00:14:45):
assert their rights,

(00:14:47):
these men see it as a threat and see it as a sign that they think men should not

(00:14:52):
have rights.

(00:14:54):
I think it's important to note that men who reject harmful,

(00:14:57):
violent masculinity don't read feminism as being about hating men.

(00:15:02):
And so it's a pretty good test of how dangerous a man is to see how he responds to feminism.

(00:15:09):
And if he says that means you hate men,

(00:15:12):
It means he sees women and men as fundamentally in opposition to one another, as at war.

(00:15:18):
And so a woman demanding good treatment is someone who is demanding that a man not

(00:15:24):
get what he wants.

(00:15:25):
And apparently what he wants is violence against women.

(00:15:29):
Yeah.

(00:15:29):
So I would, so try it on, Mizan.

(00:15:32):
Hate a man at me.

(00:15:34):
Or hate men at me or, you know.

(00:15:37):
I will never work with a male doctor.

(00:15:38):
Okay.

(00:15:40):
Okay.

(00:15:42):
That's cool.

(00:15:44):
Why would I give a shit?

(00:15:46):
Like if I'm on a date with you or, you know, obviously I would ask why.

(00:15:50):
Be curious and everything.

(00:15:51):
But like, that doesn't affect me at all.

(00:15:56):
You would never work with a male lawyer.

(00:15:58):
Well, I'm a male lawyer.

(00:16:03):
So what?

(00:16:04):
Yeah.

(00:16:05):
Why would I care?

(00:16:06):
Why would I give a shit?

(00:16:07):
What a woman thinks.

(00:16:08):
And maybe...

(00:16:10):
If I didn't have a defensive reaction and I listened, maybe I could get a client out of that.

(00:16:18):
That's the thing.

(00:16:20):
If you can disprove assumptions, that's a good way of proving yourself.

(00:16:26):
But if you get too defensive, then all you're going to do is just look like an asshole.

(00:16:33):
Yeah,

(00:16:33):
and I think the other thing that this misandry thing reveals a lot is that men

(00:16:39):
really identify with being men.

(00:16:42):
They identify with, like, manhood as a class, and they really are deeply invested in other men.

(00:16:49):
Why would an emotionally stable,

(00:16:52):
confident,

(00:16:53):
healthy man care that I disliked another man or that I dislike most men?

(00:16:59):
Yeah, it's weird because, like, I am pretty...

(00:17:03):
deep in the manosphere of,

(00:17:06):
like,

(00:17:07):
hobbies and shit,

(00:17:08):
you know,

(00:17:09):
and,

(00:17:09):
you know,

(00:17:10):
I was in a fraternity,

(00:17:11):
you know.

(00:17:13):
I did... I don't know.

(00:17:16):
I don't really want to list my manhood credentials or anything,

(00:17:19):
but,

(00:17:19):
like,

(00:17:20):
you know,

(00:17:21):
I like a lot of the same shit that these toxic masculine guys like.

(00:17:25):
Like,

(00:17:26):
you know,

(00:17:26):
we...

(00:17:27):
I've been friends with plenty of them,

(00:17:29):
and we've gotten along just fine,

(00:17:31):
and...

(00:17:32):
Because there weren't any women around.

(00:17:35):
So I never had to deal with any of that other shit.

(00:17:37):
But, like, all I'm getting at is, like, I identify with all this manly shit.

(00:17:43):
Like, I don't know what they identify with.

(00:17:45):
Like, where you go that extra step of, like, I identify as a man.

(00:17:50):
I think they identify with the predatory aspects.

(00:17:55):
The entitlement?

(00:17:56):
Yeah, I mean, well, if you spend any time online, like on Facebook or...

(00:18:00):
Reddit,

(00:18:00):
you see all these men talking about submission,

(00:18:03):
you know,

(00:18:03):
women need to learn to submit to men and they'll never define what that means.

(00:18:08):
But what they really mean is that men are just allowed to be predators of women.

(00:18:11):
Yeah.

(00:18:12):
I think it means that it also means that in their relationship,

(00:18:15):
they're allowed to act like a little boy whose mom takes care of them.

(00:18:18):
Yeah.

(00:18:19):
Which is like the core thing that is going on.

(00:18:22):
And a lot of this, a lot of this is just bratty entitlement by men.

(00:18:26):
And that's what leads to so much violence.

(00:18:29):
That's what leads to so much abuse is that they can't cope with the fact that they

(00:18:32):
have to earn things and they have to get,

(00:18:35):
you know,

(00:18:35):
they have to earn their wife's respect.

(00:18:39):
They have to make their wife want to have sex with them instead of just demanding

(00:18:45):
it and then pouting about it and then getting pity sex,

(00:18:47):
which is just the most pathetic kind of sex I think anyone can ever have.

(00:18:52):
God, just gross.

(00:18:53):
Anyway.

(00:18:54):
So,

(00:18:54):
I mean,

(00:18:54):
the takeaway here is I don't think that these men accusing us of hating men

(00:19:00):
actually think that we think that.

(00:19:02):
It's just an effective tool that they've learned with their little, like, red pill dimwits.

(00:19:09):
It's a way to take our attention away from our arguments,

(00:19:13):
from our discussions,

(00:19:15):
and to make us defend ourselves.

(00:19:16):
The goal is to put you on the defensive.

(00:19:18):
So I don't think that women...

(00:19:20):
should engage with this argument at all.

(00:19:22):
I think an appropriate response is, no, I don't hate all men, but I hate you.

(00:19:27):
Or I do hate men, because look at what men do.

(00:19:31):
Don't you hate men too?

(00:19:32):
Don't you hate that?

(00:19:36):
You told me there was one guy,

(00:19:39):
another parent,

(00:19:40):
who said something to you like,

(00:19:43):
well,

(00:19:43):
not all men,

(00:19:43):
right?

(00:19:44):
And your response was...

(00:19:46):
what was my response?

(00:19:48):
It was, um, you know what we say, not all men, but probably you.

(00:19:52):
Right.

(00:19:52):
And what was his response?

(00:19:54):
A good response.

(00:19:54):
Take note, men.

(00:19:56):
What was his response?

(00:19:57):
I don't remember.

(00:19:58):
He laughed out loud and slapped his leg because he knows.

(00:20:02):
Yeah.

(00:20:03):
Yeah.

(00:20:03):
This was a, yeah.

(00:20:05):
I, I mean, I have not all men, but probably you on a sticker.

(00:20:09):
It's just the moment that,

(00:20:11):
that a man wants to defend men, that's when you know.

(00:20:14):
And we need to,

(00:20:17):
rather than taking that as a good faith argument,

(00:20:19):
as a failure of understanding or someone who needs to be educated,

(00:20:23):
we need to take that for what it is,

(00:20:25):
what it has been since the 1800s,

(00:20:28):
which is just a way of stigmatizing women who want to not be abused.

(00:20:32):
But people are always asking about red flags, and that's a perfect example.

(00:20:37):
Now, just because someone has a reaction like that, they can laugh at that.

(00:20:42):
um that that doesn't that's not a green flag that's not great but it certainly

(00:20:47):
isn't defensiveness and defensiveness is like a number one red flag and if you hear

(00:20:52):
a man saying oh well you just hate men i mean like if you're talking about a

(00:20:58):
romantic relationship i unless this person is very open to learning and that's

(00:21:04):
their initial reaction and you know you're both young and like they grew up you

(00:21:08):
know and it

(00:21:09):
stupid household or something you know like unless this person has clearly shown uh

(00:21:16):
ability to change and process information is curious and they're just saying

(00:21:19):
something stupid but if this is coming from a grown ass man it's a thought

(00:21:24):
disrupting cliche that's all it is it's not a real argument and we shouldn't treat

(00:21:29):
it as such and if we're going to talk about decentering men which we should all be

(00:21:34):
doing

(00:21:35):
We need to keep in mind that this false allegation of misandry is and always will

(00:21:39):
be about diverting attention away from women's concerns and refocusing attention

(00:21:44):
onto men and their stupid fucking fifis.

(00:21:46):
But it's also a...

(00:21:50):
And speaking of diverting attention,

(00:21:52):
our cats have just decided to throw everything off of my shelf.

(00:21:58):
So if you've heard a bunch of crashes in the background over the last few minutes,

(00:22:03):
it's because we have kittens,

(00:22:06):
the kittens we discussed in our last episode,

(00:22:08):
and now the kittens are two weeks bigger and two weeks more adventurous.

(00:22:13):
And they've decided to make it their mission to climb all the shelves in my office

(00:22:16):
and knock everything over.

(00:22:18):
They're two weeks badder.

(00:22:20):
Two weeks batter, yes.

(00:22:21):
Who would have thought that would happen?

(00:22:22):
That is the process of animals growing up.

(00:22:24):
It's the process of them getting batter and batter.

(00:22:26):
Oh, but they're so cute.

(00:22:28):
I, being a man, am unaffected by cuteness.

(00:22:32):
But I do love it when my family is happy.

(00:22:36):
I don't really know what that means.

(00:22:38):
That's going to be the one that gets the angry comment, probably.

(00:22:41):
That I'm unaffected by cuteness.

(00:22:42):
You're unaffected by cuteness.

(00:22:44):
But I love it when my family is happy.

(00:22:46):
That's true, you do.

(00:22:48):
Anyway,

(00:22:48):
I think the thing,

(00:22:49):
the one thing I was saying before we stopped was defensiveness and reaction to

(00:22:55):
anything feminist is oftentimes a confession.

(00:23:00):
And if someone gets upset and says you hate men because you're objecting to certain

(00:23:06):
behaviors that men engage in,

(00:23:08):
that's a pretty good indication that that person probably identifies with that and

(00:23:13):
is feeling attacked.

(00:23:14):
Hit dog hollers.

(00:23:16):
Yeah.

(00:23:17):
Always.

(00:23:18):
Like,

(00:23:18):
why would somebody who does not rape women be offended by me talking about men

(00:23:24):
raping women?

(00:23:24):
Why does someone who doesn't coerce their wife into sex be offended by me talking

(00:23:29):
about how that's harmful?

(00:23:32):
It's transparent why they are doing this.

(00:23:35):
And there's also this weird logic baked into this you're a misandrist thing.

(00:23:43):
And it's the idea that

(00:23:45):
I have to agree that it's not all men for my feminism to be valid.

(00:23:51):
Like, why should I have a defense of men baked into my feminism?

(00:23:55):
Why should I have to have a belief in the fundamental goodness of most or some or

(00:24:01):
all men built into my feminist beliefs?

(00:24:05):
That's up to men.

(00:24:06):
It's up to men to argue that men are good.

(00:24:09):
And the effective way to do that

(00:24:11):
is not by calling women misandrous on the internet, it's with their actions.

(00:24:16):
If you are a good man and you behave well,

(00:24:19):
then women will think,

(00:24:21):
oh,

(00:24:21):
it's not all men because it's not you.

(00:24:24):
Yeah,

(00:24:25):
well,

(00:24:25):
so like,

(00:24:26):
let's actually talk about what I think the feminists are after and what the men

(00:24:31):
just don't want to give up.

(00:24:32):
Let's just talk about social stuff.

(00:24:36):
Okay, don't rape women.

(00:24:39):
Don't assault women.

(00:24:41):
Don't harass women.

(00:24:43):
Don't intimidate women.

(00:24:45):
Do your fair share at home.

(00:24:47):
And when we say harass and intimidate,

(00:24:49):
that includes imposing on women in the workplace,

(00:24:52):
talking over them,

(00:24:54):
refusing to move for them,

(00:24:56):
taking up more of everything.

(00:24:59):
Being respectful.

(00:25:00):
Being humble.

(00:25:02):
You know, prioritizing your family.

(00:25:05):
Doing a job and doing it really well.

(00:25:07):
Taking pride in yourself and your appearance and your hygiene.

(00:25:13):
For fuck's sake.

(00:25:15):
Always on the hygiene.

(00:25:15):
You know, these guys...

(00:25:18):
You know, I bet that guy who says that people are simps doesn't wipe his ass.

(00:25:21):
I bet he's got poop flakes.

(00:25:23):
You know, don't act like a fucking child.

(00:25:25):
Like, that's what women are asking from men.

(00:25:28):
Like, show me the man who has a problem with any of those things.

(00:25:35):
And I'll show you a man who's a problem.

(00:25:37):
Yeah.

(00:25:38):
So, for us, for feminists, for women...

(00:25:42):
It's really time to stop engaging with this argument.

(00:25:45):
And what if instead of wasting our time engaging with this argument,

(00:25:49):
we refocused our attention on our fundamental right to safety and on working to be

(00:25:55):
as safe as possible by minimizing our contact with men?

(00:25:59):
This is something I do in my own life.

(00:26:01):
I do not hire men.

(00:26:03):
I do not use men doctors.

(00:26:05):
And when people push back on this with me, I don't defend myself because fuck them.

(00:26:10):
But,

(00:26:10):
you know,

(00:26:10):
occasionally I'll point out that data shows that male surgeons are more dangerous

(00:26:14):
for women,

(00:26:16):
that male doctors make more errors with women,

(00:26:18):
and that men in any role ever are more likely to assault,

(00:26:22):
rape,

(00:26:22):
and kill women and also their children.

(00:26:24):
So it's

(00:26:26):
You know,

(00:26:27):
it's completely justified to say that we want to avoid men in these contexts or in

(00:26:31):
any context.

(00:26:33):
Association with any given person is not a right.

(00:26:36):
Men don't have a right to associate with women generally or specifically.

(00:26:39):
Well, and like, why would anyone push back on that?

(00:26:44):
Like having a rapport with your doctor is important.

(00:26:47):
It's very important, right?

(00:26:49):
I have had male doctors, female doctors.

(00:26:53):
I don't have to worry about that because they treat me respectfully.

(00:26:57):
And so I don't have to go in wondering whether this guy is going to disbelieve

(00:27:02):
something I'm saying or say that I'm,

(00:27:03):
oh,

(00:27:03):
it's just he's emotional or something like that.

(00:27:06):
I will be generally regarded as an objective reporter, even though men are way more emotional.

(00:27:12):
And I'm actually not a very good historian of health.

(00:27:17):
But whatever, I'll be regarded as one.

(00:27:19):
Well,

(00:27:19):
yeah,

(00:27:20):
so we've had a recent example where Jeff had a minor issue with some medical care

(00:27:25):
that he received.

(00:27:27):
and complained about it and the fawning attention he has gotten from multiple

(00:27:33):
people in authority of we're taking this very seriously we're going to address this

(00:27:38):
putting written reports in his chart and then asking if we needed to correct those

(00:27:43):
written reports asking if i'm okay emotionally about it yeah um doing everything

(00:27:48):
that you would expect except for like a minor thing whereas like

(00:27:53):
I had a medical provider assault me and then later that same day failed to

(00:27:59):
appropriately treat my postpartum hemorrhage and it's crickets for me.

(00:28:03):
Um,

(00:28:05):
you know,

(00:28:06):
and,

(00:28:06):
and it's,

(00:28:06):
it's,

(00:28:08):
I wonder why do you,

(00:28:09):
it must be because I'm just so irrational.

(00:28:12):
Yeah, no, I, I, it, it is really a stark contrast and like, you know,

(00:28:20):
Especially because, like, with my complaint, I'm like, I'm fine.

(00:28:23):
I don't really give a shit, you know.

(00:28:25):
I got out with what I needed, which was, like, the procedure done, you know, to satisfaction.

(00:28:30):
I don't really give a shit what anyone else did to me or whatever.

(00:28:34):
But, you know, you got to complain because I don't know what is going to happen to other people.

(00:28:40):
But, like, the life and death situation...

(00:28:45):
Yeah,

(00:28:46):
the zone goes through is just treated as like,

(00:28:48):
oh,

(00:28:48):
well,

(00:28:49):
talk to the the hospital person whose job it is to try to smooth over,

(00:28:54):
you know,

(00:28:54):
emotional complaints and then make them go away.

(00:28:57):
And it's just fucking typical.

(00:28:59):
It really is.

(00:29:02):
But no, all that to say is like, you know, I.

(00:29:08):
Who cares if someone doesn't want to work with a man?

(00:29:12):
That doesn't affect anyone else but that person.

(00:29:16):
And so anyone who's arguing about this stuff is just arguing that they are entitled

(00:29:21):
to something.

(00:29:22):
Anyone who thinks they're entitled to something is fucking weak, doesn't want to work for it.

(00:29:26):
And that is the root of all masculine fragility.

(00:29:30):
Yeah, they just they don't want to do the work.

(00:29:33):
So, speaking of misandry, Jeff, are you excited for our new feature?

(00:29:38):
Oh yeah, are we there?

(00:29:39):
Yeah, I've been stoked about this one.

(00:29:42):
Okay, so we are going to do the Liberating Motherhood Mail Complaint Box.

(00:29:50):
Y'all tell me all the time about your husband's complaints about the podcast.

(00:29:53):
You email me, you DM me.

(00:29:56):
I lose the complaints.

(00:29:57):
I want to respond to them.

(00:29:59):
I want to punch your husband's for you.

(00:30:02):
So a couple of weeks ago,

(00:30:04):
I decided to make it an official thing that you could submit your male partner,

(00:30:10):
male loser,

(00:30:11):
male random acquaintance complaints and

(00:30:14):
to my complaint box um weirdly a lot of you used it to submit like general mail

(00:30:19):
complaints um complaints men had about you or the world i appreciate the vote of

(00:30:26):
confidence that i can address all mail complaints um i i believe that i can

(00:30:31):
actually they should just shut the fuck up um but for today we're gonna limit it to

(00:30:37):
complaints specifically about the podcast and

(00:30:41):
I'm going to start with three.

(00:30:43):
Since we're dealing with men,

(00:30:45):
and since I'm a dangerous,

(00:30:46):
scary misandrist,

(00:30:48):
I'm going to give Jeff the first crack at all of these.

(00:30:51):
Oh, yeah.

(00:30:51):
I'm not a misandrist.

(00:30:52):
I hate everybody.

(00:30:54):
All right.

(00:30:55):
So here's the first one.

(00:30:56):
And this is a quote.

(00:30:59):
The listener notes that this is from a man who was complaining about his lack of

(00:31:05):
sex after reading my article about why women don't want to have sex with men.

(00:31:10):
And here's what he said.

(00:31:11):
I'm sorry, but she's not going to be reaching any men until she changes her tone.

(00:31:18):
Snowflake.

(00:31:21):
Snowflake can't handle the truth.

(00:31:23):
You know, your wife gave you that article to read because you need to read it.

(00:31:29):
And it hurt your feelings.

(00:31:31):
And complaining about a lack of sex.

(00:31:36):
Well, it's like what I always say.

(00:31:37):
Do men actually want sex or do they just want to complain about not getting it?

(00:31:42):
No, they want it.

(00:31:43):
They just don't want to have to do anything to make themselves be appealing.

(00:31:50):
You know, is this guy spending time with the kids?

(00:31:56):
Is he cleaning the house?

(00:31:58):
Is he... Does he smell?

(00:32:00):
Does he smell?

(00:32:01):
Does he shower?

(00:32:02):
You know.

(00:32:03):
Has he ever made a woman have an orgasm?

(00:32:07):
No.

(00:32:08):
No.

(00:32:09):
No, friend.

(00:32:10):
And so I'm sorry that you don't like my tone

(00:32:12):
but I'm actually not here to reach men anyway.

(00:32:16):
I offer this information,

(00:32:21):
and men can say,

(00:32:22):
gee,

(00:32:22):
I want to have more sex,

(00:32:24):
and this is a woman who talks to women all day,

(00:32:26):
every day.

(00:32:28):
Maybe I should listen to her, or they can say, hmm, maybe not.

(00:32:32):
It doesn't affect me if men get more sex with their partners.

(00:32:36):
I'd really like it if people could give a profile.

(00:32:39):
of the men yeah we're making these complaints please for the next complaint box if

(00:32:43):
you could like baseball card kind of like stats like last shower was six days ago

(00:32:48):
you know last orgasm from him was 23 years ago or never last time he cared for our

(00:32:55):
kids like that would that would help um but i realize also that a lot of these men

(00:33:01):
are unfortunately dangerous so if it seems too specific that's going to be a

(00:33:04):
problem

(00:33:06):
Okay, so here's the next one.

(00:33:07):
I think this is a really good one.

(00:33:09):
So she says,

(00:33:10):
this is more of an ex-situationship complaint,

(00:33:13):
but he complains that the content is cynical and negative,

(00:33:17):
and that he prefers to live with a positive mindset because life is too short.

(00:33:21):
Oh, and he also loves using terms like simp and beta man to discount and dismiss feminist men.

(00:33:29):
Yeah, this is the sort of guy who I'd like to see the profile on.

(00:33:32):
Yeah.

(00:33:33):
Let's see.

(00:33:34):
Let's see what this this guy looks like.

(00:33:38):
Yeah.

(00:33:38):
But what the fuck does that mean?

(00:33:39):
Simp feminist.

(00:33:41):
Like,

(00:33:42):
OK,

(00:33:44):
first of all,

(00:33:44):
like I prefer to live with a positive mindset because you don't have to deal with

(00:33:48):
anything.

(00:33:48):
It's because your life is easy.

(00:33:50):
It's because you don't have to,

(00:33:51):
if you had to face like a fraction of the shit that women face every day,

(00:33:54):
you would crumble.

(00:33:55):
That's what you're saying.

(00:33:56):
Well, let's actually talk about what's really cynical.

(00:33:59):
Because I want to address that and what is actually positive.

(00:34:03):
So what's actually a positive mindset is talking to people of all genders about how

(00:34:10):
we have completely within our power the ability to build whatever world we want

(00:34:16):
that is what a relationship is it is a world that two people choose to create

(00:34:21):
together and you can create whatever you want whatever kind of world you want in

(00:34:26):
that relationship you have the power to create and what i am arguing

(00:34:31):
is that people in heterosexual relationships can come together and create

(00:34:35):
relationships of mutual love and support,

(00:34:39):
of immense and constant pleasure,

(00:34:41):
and they can build something that is much greater than the sum of the two halves.

(00:34:46):
And

(00:34:47):
That's not cynical.

(00:34:48):
That's hopeful.

(00:34:49):
What's cynical is saying that women just need to settle and not complain and not

(00:34:56):
build a better world because it makes this simp feel sad that he can't live up to

(00:35:01):
any expectation that any woman might set.

(00:35:03):
Yeah, positive mindset is that you can escape your abusive relationship.

(00:35:07):
Positive mindset is that you can identify that you're in an abusive relationship.

(00:35:11):
He is looking at it from his perspective.

(00:35:14):
But, you know, this simp, like, I don't know.

(00:35:18):
I'm a feminist.

(00:35:19):
No one's ever called me a simp.

(00:35:21):
I think he's calling you a simp.

(00:35:23):
No, he's not.

(00:35:25):
I think he is, Jeff.

(00:35:27):
Well, maybe on the internet.

(00:35:29):
But, like, if we hung out, I don't think he would be calling me a simp.

(00:35:32):
Like, not that I'm, like, so fucking tough that, like, he wouldn't dare.

(00:35:35):
It's just, like...

(00:35:36):
I just don't think that's the reaction he would have in real life.

(00:35:40):
Because there's nothing to argue with.

(00:35:43):
There's nothing to look down on.

(00:35:44):
What?

(00:35:45):
My wife loves me.

(00:35:46):
I have a happy family.

(00:35:48):
I have an important job.

(00:35:53):
What is simpy about any of this shit?

(00:35:55):
You've built a life where people like that you're alive rather than hoping for you to be dead.

(00:36:01):
Yeah, what, because I clean?

(00:36:03):
Because I put laundry away?

(00:36:06):
Because I don't let my hobbies take up all of the free time for the entire family?

(00:36:12):
Because I don't abandon my family on the weekends so that I can go play while my

(00:36:16):
wife does all the childcare?

(00:36:17):
Well, I've got a theory about this sim thing that I think is actually worth talking about.

(00:36:23):
There is this thing that a lot of men who are...

(00:36:27):
fake feminists do that's like a weaponized fragility weaponized vulnerability thing

(00:36:35):
where it's like oh i'm so sensitive and i go to therapy and i have these big

(00:36:40):
feelings that i'm going to talk about forever and i'm not going to be a tough guy

(00:36:44):
and just essentially presenting themselves as like babies and unfortunately a lot

(00:36:51):
of women

(00:36:52):
buy this because they've seen this sort of like performative tough guy, alpha male stuff.

(00:36:58):
And so this like faux sensitive guy seems like something new and different,

(00:37:02):
but it's the same old misogynist just wearing a cloak of like weakness and

(00:37:08):
manufactured weakness and victimhood.

(00:37:12):
And I do wonder if these men calling feminist men simps,

(00:37:18):
have that kind of guy in mind, because that is what has been promoted as the feminist man.

(00:37:25):
You know,

(00:37:25):
feminist men can have all kinds of appearances and all kinds of jobs and all kinds

(00:37:29):
of interests and all kinds of body types and all kinds of emotional states.

(00:37:34):
None of those really have any bearing on whether or not they're feminists.

(00:37:38):
Yeah, I mean, no one's trying to take away any of your manly pursuits, whatever those may be.

(00:37:43):
You want to wrestle around with sweaty, half-naked guys, you know, call it jiu-jitsu.

(00:37:48):
You want to be an MMA fighter.

(00:37:52):
You want to...

(00:37:53):
be an underwater welder.

(00:37:55):
Like,

(00:37:55):
I don't know what the...

(00:37:56):
You want to give up sex for a week and go hang with your bros on a boat,

(00:38:00):
just the boys?

(00:38:01):
Well,

(00:38:02):
that one is a problem,

(00:38:03):
actually,

(00:38:04):
because,

(00:38:04):
you know,

(00:38:05):
you don't get to just fucking take off because you actually have responsibilities

(00:38:09):
because,

(00:38:09):
like,

(00:38:09):
a real man actually faces his responsibilities and handles them before they do

(00:38:14):
anything else.

(00:38:15):
But, like, I don't know what's simpy about it.

(00:38:19):
Like, it...

(00:38:21):
I guess it's simply to not like wine.

(00:38:24):
It's simply to not like beg for sex or to insist that you get to have five hobbies

(00:38:30):
while your wife has zero hobbies that you suck at that will make no difference in

(00:38:34):
the world.

(00:38:34):
You will contribute nothing to the advancement of any scientific or artistic

(00:38:39):
pursuit in the world.

(00:38:41):
Like, so, you know, I guess, I don't, I don't know.

(00:38:45):
How many women are happy that you're in the world?

(00:38:49):
How many people are happy that you're here?

(00:38:54):
You know,

(00:38:55):
we are in the world to do as much good as we can and to love as much as we can,

(00:39:01):
not to prove how domineering and terrible we can be and not to leave a legacy of

(00:39:07):
destruction such that everyone's glad when we're dead.

(00:39:10):
Yeah, I don't get it.

(00:39:12):
All right, next one.

(00:39:17):
Yeah.

(00:39:18):
Hi,

(00:39:19):
Zahn,

(00:39:19):
and then parentheses,

(00:39:20):
and Jeff,

(00:39:21):
I have shared a ton of your work with my soon-to-be ex-husband,

(00:39:25):
and the main takeaway by him is that you're,

(00:39:27):
quote,

(00:39:28):
angry or,

(00:39:28):
quote,

(00:39:29):
ranting.

(00:39:30):
This is,

(00:39:30):
of course,

(00:39:31):
typical of men,

(00:39:32):
to just dismiss everything you say,

(00:39:34):
every research fact,

(00:39:35):
every real actual event,

(00:39:36):
and,

(00:39:36):
of course,

(00:39:37):
real feelings by women,

(00:39:38):
and she has this in all caps,

(00:39:39):
me.

(00:39:41):
I am sure you will hear this countless times from countless women.

(00:39:43):
I try to educate the man, but he is put off and shuts down when he feels attacked.

(00:39:48):
And of course,

(00:39:48):
any truth of the matter feels like an attack to him because he's taken so much of

(00:39:51):
advantage of me.

(00:39:52):
He doesn't work,

(00:39:53):
has not worked for ages,

(00:39:54):
and this has been one of the main reasons I've filed for divorce.

(00:39:57):
He takes from me,

(00:39:58):
but when I bring him evidence that this is a real thing and show him or read to him

(00:40:01):
from your blog,

(00:40:02):
he is just so dismissive that you're just some crazy,

(00:40:04):
angry feminist woman and that nothing you say has value.

(00:40:08):
So the first thing that I would say to this dude,

(00:40:10):
and I know I said I was going to let you respond first,

(00:40:11):
but I just,

(00:40:12):
I have to.

(00:40:14):
How dare you?

(00:40:15):
Are you, you're taking away my, I feel such a simp.

(00:40:20):
Oh my God.

(00:40:21):
Okay, so.

(00:40:23):
If you're not angry about the way that women,

(00:40:27):
about the way that black people,

(00:40:29):
about the way that immigrants and people with disabilities and so many other

(00:40:32):
marginalized groups are treated in this culture,

(00:40:35):
there is something deeply wrong and deeply broken inside of you.

(00:40:40):
Anger is an emotion that exists to incite action.

(00:40:43):
We feel angry when there is an injustice.

(00:40:46):
Good people feel angry when they see something bad happening because anger is what

(00:40:51):
inspires you to do something.

(00:40:53):
And feel angry all the time, right?

(00:40:55):
Because there's so much of it around us.

(00:40:57):
And so this thing we do where we dismiss women as angry,

(00:41:01):
you know,

(00:41:02):
it's just a new version of,

(00:41:04):
oh,

(00:41:04):
it's just a hysterical woman.

(00:41:06):
And it's very similar.

(00:41:07):
It's very similar to the misandry thing where it's just a thought terminating

(00:41:13):
cliche designed to shut down dissent.

(00:41:17):
Oh, you're angry.

(00:41:18):
And then she argues that she's not.

(00:41:20):
And then that's what you're discussing.

(00:41:22):
Yes.

(00:41:23):
I am angry.

(00:41:24):
I am angry that at least 30% of college men are raping women because women are

(00:41:30):
people and those men deserve to feel ire.

(00:41:33):
I am angry that relationships with men,

(00:41:36):
which should be a source of joy and liberation and pleasure and everything good in

(00:41:42):
the world,

(00:41:43):
have become a source of nothing but abuse and misery,

(00:41:46):
have stolen millions of women's lives.

(00:41:48):
I am angry about all of this because I

(00:41:52):
Anger is what tells us something needs to change.

(00:41:55):
So, like, shut the fuck up, you loser bitch.

(00:42:01):
Well, I'll take a more direct route here and just focus in on three words.

(00:42:06):
He doesn't work.

(00:42:07):
Yeah.

(00:42:08):
What the fuck is he doing?

(00:42:11):
And, like, why are we trying to convince this guy?

(00:42:15):
Now, maybe he's got an excuse for not working.

(00:42:19):
Maybe he's on disability.

(00:42:22):
I mean, she says it's one of the reasons they're splitting up, so I doubt it.

(00:42:26):
Yeah,

(00:42:26):
and so...

(00:42:29):
I mean,

(00:42:29):
if someone doesn't have enough self-respect to get a fucking job and take care of

(00:42:33):
their family and contribute to their household,

(00:42:36):
I don't think that they're going to read Zahn's work and get there.

(00:42:40):
Like, this is someone who...

(00:42:43):
doesn't need to be dragging anyone else down.

(00:42:46):
And so of course he is dismissive.

(00:42:49):
He's probably depressed.

(00:42:51):
And so he's going to lash out against anything that makes him try to take accountability for it.

(00:42:58):
And I just... What he's saying is that he doesn't think that he should have to change.

(00:43:04):
And you say that everything feels like an attack on him.

(00:43:09):
And that is because it is.

(00:43:11):
It's because I am talking about men like him.

(00:43:15):
If you feel attacked by my work, it's because I'm talking about you.

(00:43:20):
And that's not a sign that you need to get defensive and threaten me or threaten

(00:43:24):
your wife or whine or whatever.

(00:43:28):
It's a sign that you need to change.

(00:43:30):
When you feel attacked by someone calling you to behave in a more moral and ethical

(00:43:37):
way,

(00:43:38):
listen to that voice inside of you that feels attacked.

(00:43:41):
And instead of getting defensive, think about...

(00:43:44):
how you could have a better life and you could build a better life with your partner.

(00:43:48):
Like we get one life and these relationships can be nothing but good if we just

(00:43:55):
make them that way.

(00:43:56):
And why would we not choose to make them that way?

(00:44:00):
Yeah.

(00:44:01):
And I think that I just want to say one thing about the depression thing, since I mentioned it.

(00:44:07):
So what do women, what do mothers especially do when they get depressed?

(00:44:13):
They get up and they keep going, right?

(00:44:14):
Yeah.

(00:44:15):
Because there's no other choice.

(00:44:17):
There's no alternative.

(00:44:18):
And once you have kids,

(00:44:20):
you don't really get to claim,

(00:44:22):
oh,

(00:44:23):
I'm depressed so I don't have to work.

(00:44:25):
I'm depressed so I don't have to get out of bed.

(00:44:26):
Well, and especially I'm depressed so I'm going to do...

(00:44:30):
This isn't an argument that depression is not real or pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

(00:44:34):
It's an argument that you don't get to claim, I'm depressed, so I'm going to do nothing forever.

(00:44:40):
I'm just going to check out of this and make it all someone else's problem.

(00:44:43):
I mean, I'm putting aside traumatic things or event-based stuff.

(00:44:50):
I'm just talking about...

(00:44:53):
You know,

(00:44:53):
and I don't know,

(00:44:54):
when it comes to depression,

(00:44:56):
I am a little bit of a pull yourself up because,

(00:44:58):
like,

(00:44:58):
the only way I've ever found out of depression is you keep going and you keep going

(00:45:02):
and you do the stuff that you know you're supposed to do.

(00:45:04):
You drink water,

(00:45:04):
you eat food,

(00:45:05):
you exercise,

(00:45:05):
you go to work and,

(00:45:07):
like,

(00:45:07):
you know,

(00:45:08):
because you're going to feel like shit anyway.

(00:45:10):
You might as well not make it worse.

(00:45:11):
You might as well keep doing it.

(00:45:14):
So I... But, yeah, I mean, trying to educate someone who can't be bothered to get a job...

(00:45:24):
I don't know.

(00:45:25):
Well,

(00:45:25):
and I think generally,

(00:45:27):
you know,

(00:45:27):
I don't know what your,

(00:45:29):
what the state of things is with your soon to be ex-husband.

(00:45:33):
But it's pretty clear he's not going to change.

(00:45:35):
So I would just say, stop trying to change him.

(00:45:38):
Stop trying to educate him.

(00:45:40):
Because all that happens is it upsets you.

(00:45:42):
It wastes your time.

(00:45:44):
And this is what men are experts at is wasting our fucking time.

(00:45:48):
And every moment that he steals from you is a moment that you could spend doing anything else.

(00:45:55):
And so spend that time on something else.

(00:45:57):
We need to stop arguing with men about our fundamental humanity.

(00:46:01):
We need to stop acting as if these are valid debates.

(00:46:04):
They're not.

(00:46:07):
Yeah, every fight that you have drains something from you.

(00:46:11):
And not just your time, but your energy and your mental well-being.

(00:46:15):
And it's just never worth it.

(00:46:17):
So...

(00:46:18):
And it nurtures self-doubt.

(00:46:19):
You know,

(00:46:19):
if the person who is supposed to love you the most is saying,

(00:46:23):
well,

(00:46:23):
you know,

(00:46:23):
maybe actually you're not entitled to equal rights.

(00:46:26):
And,

(00:46:27):
you know,

(00:46:27):
maybe you're a monster for asking that,

(00:46:29):
you know,

(00:46:30):
I not spend the last 10 years raping you or I get a job or whatever.

(00:46:35):
Even if you know that they're wrong, I think that it gets in your brain in a lot of ways.

(00:46:41):
And I think it harms you.

(00:46:42):
And I think that you don't need to hear those messages.

(00:46:45):
Do you think that our second complainant...

(00:46:48):
would call our third complainant a simp, or would I be the simp in this situation?

(00:46:52):
Oh, you're the simp.

(00:46:53):
But I have a job.

(00:46:55):
Yeah, but you're the simp.

(00:46:57):
See, alpha just means... What does alpha mean?

(00:47:05):
I think alpha means that you're confident and you don't have to lash out at people.

(00:47:10):
To these guys, what does alpha mean?

(00:47:13):
Um...

(00:47:15):
I think it means I don't like women.

(00:47:17):
I think it means I'm entitled to whatever I want.

(00:47:19):
And if I don't get it, I'm going to throw a fit about it.

(00:47:22):
And that sounds like a child to me.

(00:47:27):
Yeah.

(00:47:27):
And women don't typically want to fuck children.

(00:47:29):
Certainly not as great men do.

(00:47:32):
Burn.

(00:47:32):
I don't know if that's the best ending.

(00:47:37):
So, okay.

(00:47:38):
Well, I haven't even told you this.

(00:47:40):
So one of the questions in my survey that's going to be coming out like about a

(00:47:44):
month after this comes out.

(00:47:46):
Women keep telling me that there's like an epidemic of men being interested in

(00:47:51):
literal children that like people are not talking about.

(00:47:54):
And I'm starting to encounter this a little bit in the women that I work with.

(00:47:59):
It's pretty common for her to like give a litany of complaints.

(00:48:06):
And then one of them is, and I found child sexual assault material on his computer.

(00:48:10):
Oh, God.

(00:48:11):
And he was treated for sexual interest in children.

(00:48:17):
It's not the norm.

(00:48:18):
I want to be clear.

(00:48:18):
It's not the norm like rape and domestic violence are,

(00:48:21):
but it is far more common than you would think.

(00:48:25):
And right now in my survey,

(00:48:29):
I don't have the question in front of me,

(00:48:30):
but I worded it as,

(00:48:32):
you know,

(00:48:33):
has your partner ever

(00:48:36):
had child sexual assault material expressed an interest in children,

(00:48:40):
or do you have strong evidence that they might have an interest in children,

(00:48:43):
something like that?

(00:48:45):
And the answers have been yes in 10 to 15% of respondents.

(00:48:49):
And that number is consistent with what I see in the women that I counsel and work with.

(00:48:55):
Yeah, that's really alarming.

(00:48:59):
You know, having that shit on the computer is a felony that is taken very seriously.

(00:49:06):
But what I am seeing is that, you know, much like all other crimes, it's often not prosecuted.

(00:49:14):
They come in and they raid the computer and then nothing happens.

(00:49:19):
And then she seeks a protective order and sometimes can't get one.

(00:49:22):
I can think off the top of my head of like...

(00:49:27):
five or six examples of this just in like women i know and this is this is not what

(00:49:34):
i would have thought um because i see those cases yeah yeah this is not what i

(00:49:39):
would have thought before i started like sticking my nose in so many women's lives

(00:49:44):
you got to remember like prosecutions are decisions based on based you know by

(00:49:49):
someone called a district attorney or or similar terms depending on the state but

(00:49:54):
generally

(00:49:55):
Every single county in every single state has its own district attorney who makes

(00:49:58):
all the prosecution decisions.

(00:50:00):
And so pretending that there's any uniformity and enforcement in the criminal

(00:50:03):
justice system is a joke.

(00:50:06):
And so that's that's a big, big problem.

(00:50:09):
But I'd also I think that especially given the recent climate politically

(00:50:17):
surrounding Epstein and,

(00:50:20):
you know,

(00:50:21):
Trump and the like,

(00:50:23):
you know,

(00:50:23):
some of those women might want to see if any local writers are interested in that

(00:50:28):
because a prosecutor who is not following through on prosecuting,

(00:50:32):
especially like childhood sexual assault videos.

(00:50:35):
I mean,

(00:50:35):
there's victims on the other end of those,

(00:50:37):
which is generally why the prosecutions are so,

(00:50:40):
um,

(00:50:42):
you know, at least in theory, so serious.

(00:50:45):
I would also advise that if you find anything like that on your partner's computer

(00:50:51):
or phone,

(00:50:52):
you need to report that because there's a world in which maybe you potentially get

(00:50:55):
blamed for it otherwise.

(00:50:56):
Yeah, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't report that.

(00:51:02):
You know, anyone who's got that on their computers, they got a problem.

(00:51:12):
All right,

(00:51:12):
so on that note,

(00:51:14):
women don't want to have sex with children at nearly the rates that men seem to.

(00:51:19):
If you would like to submit your husband or boyfriend or random male loser's

(00:51:23):
complaint for our judgment,

(00:51:25):
you can do so at tinyurl.com.

(00:51:31):
LM complaint box.

(00:51:32):
And that LM complaint box is all one word, no spaces, no underscores.

(00:51:36):
I'll also put it in the show notes.

(00:51:38):
Please use this only for mail complaints, not general communication.

(00:51:42):
Every time I give a form,

(00:51:43):
I get like a couple of messages from men on it that are like,

(00:51:46):
hello,

(00:51:46):
I'm a man and I just want to share some things.

(00:51:49):
If you want to get in touch with me for any other reason, you can email zahn at zahn.net and

(00:51:55):
The Liberating Motherhood website is also a really useful source of information,

(00:51:59):
including details on how to come on the podcast,

(00:52:02):
how to submit a vignette for the podcast,

(00:52:05):
where to find all of my work,

(00:52:07):
so much more.

(00:52:08):
Check it out at liberatingmotherhood.org.

(00:52:11):
And of course, follow me on Substack.

(00:52:13):
I also have to put a quick plug in here for the Liberating Motherhood community.

(00:52:19):
I'm finding that

(00:52:21):
A lot of listeners and readers don't actually know about it.

(00:52:24):
So if you become a paid subscriber,

(00:52:27):
then you are eligible if you sign an NDA and meet certain basic requirements.

(00:52:32):
What's an NDA?

(00:52:33):
A non-disclosure agreement.

(00:52:36):
A non-disclosure agreement is an agreement that you are not going to take content

(00:52:40):
from the community and give it to other people outside of the community.

(00:52:44):
So you sign this agreement,

(00:52:45):
you become a paid subscriber,

(00:52:47):
you get to join the Liberating Motherhood community.

(00:52:49):
And it is amazing.

(00:52:50):
It is the most supportive place I have ever been.

(00:52:53):
You know,

(00:52:54):
members have stayed with each other,

(00:52:58):
sometimes lived with each other,

(00:52:59):
traveled with each other,

(00:53:00):
supported one another financially and otherwise to leave abusive relationships.

(00:53:05):
If you are struggling in your life, it is

(00:53:09):
going to be probably the most useful source of information.

(00:53:12):
There will be someone who has faced the exact same thing you have there.

(00:53:15):
Do subscribers have a right to continue to access to this community?

(00:53:19):
So Jeff is asking that because I...

(00:53:24):
I will occasionally remove subscribers who are problematic or who won't sign an NDA

(00:53:30):
because I'm really committed to keeping this community safe.

(00:53:34):
And of course, when I remove people, they get very angry.

(00:53:36):
So no, it's not a right.

(00:53:38):
But, you know, as long as you come in and you don't act like a complete jackhole.

(00:53:43):
You'll get to stay and help other people and benefit from their wisdom.

(00:53:46):
So it's like let me just it's like any other community.

(00:53:49):
Like if you if you go into any specialized community on the Internet,

(00:53:53):
like say you go on Reddit and go into like the plant forum or.

(00:53:57):
Whatever,

(00:53:58):
whatever specialized hobby there is,

(00:54:00):
and you're a total beginner and you start posting,

(00:54:03):
telling people what to do,

(00:54:05):
you know,

(00:54:05):
posting your opinion about everything.

(00:54:06):
People are not going to like it.

(00:54:08):
Right.

(00:54:09):
You need to stop and listen, read the room, understand the rules, understand the culture.

(00:54:15):
Just don't go in and start arguing with people because you'll get kicked out of there.

(00:54:19):
And, but once you do, it's an amazing place.

(00:54:22):
So yeah, become a paid subscriber and you get access to the community.

(00:54:26):
You get an additional podcast from us.

(00:54:28):
You help support my work.

(00:54:30):
Subscribers are the sole reason I could do this work.

(00:54:33):
I don't take ads.

(00:54:35):
I don't do sponsorships.

(00:54:37):
It's everyone who's paying.

(00:54:40):
So thank you if you are one of those people.

(00:54:42):
And if you can't pay, you're doing enough by just listening, sharing, et cetera.

(00:54:47):
And Jeff, any parting words?

(00:54:50):
He is shaking his head no because he thinks you people can see him.

(00:54:55):
No, I have nothing further.

(00:54:57):
All right, we will be back in two weeks.