>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live in

a Jesuit young adult community. We

all live hectic lives and often don't get time to

reflect on what's happening both to us and around us.

This podcast is meant to help you take a moment to stop

and think about where you are, where you're going

and where your relationship with God fits into it all.

Every week, I meet a new guest who tells me about something they

experienced which changed their life forever. And

by talking about the things they wish they'd known at the time,

we'll explore the idea that God is in all things.

And we'll talk about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

So today I'm speaking to Nigel, who just before

lockdown, made the decision to adopt his son.

He's of Welsh heritage, he's a church leader and is

now working for Westminster Theological Centre.

Today he speaks about the process of adopting, the

infertility experience he had, and how he felt God's

presence in it all. I love talking to him

because his story is so powerful and so beautiful.

It really impacted me, especially when he shared the joys and

challenges of adopting. So,

Nigel, what made you decide to adopt your son?

>> Nigel: It was a very long journey. We'd gone through a very

difficult period of time in life and

I was walking down South End on

CC Front and really wrestling with

God about family and what

does it mean to be family? Because we all don't. We, we have this

2.4 children biological

understanding of family in Western culture

in particular. whereas family in the

Bible and family in many other cultures is

completely different. And for me, I think I was

in a process of getting my system both

intellectually, emotionally, spiritually,

mentally, really shaken around what it meant to

be family. And so, my wife and I

had sort of talked about adopting and I

just remember thinking to myself, in all

honesty, I don't want somebody else's child.

That's the really selfish thing to confess. But it is where

my heart was, at that particular moment. And

I remember walking down Southend Seafront, as I'd mentioned before,

and, I heard this voice in my head, around

adoption, you know, just what would we call it?

A sort of maybe a leading of the Holy Spirit.

And, and I confessed that out of my mouth, well, I don't want

somebody else's child. And. And then I just heard

this inner voice say to me, but you're adopted.

And I thought, no, I'm not. I have biological

parents who I've had all my life.

and I just really, again, this heart voice say to

me, yeah, I adopted you.

You're my son. And something just

radically changed in my mindset. I thought, oh, my

goodness, I've got this really narrow view of family.

And there's something much bigger, a bigger revelation

of. Not just for me as a. As a sort of

an adoptive parent, but also in my

theology and my understanding of God, which I'm sure

we'll get on to at some point. But that was kind of like

where I would say the light bulb, The

Damascus Road moment. The light bulb moment

came on where I thought, oh, this is something much

bigger than, you know,

what I thought it to be.

>> Julia: I was just thinking about this, and I hope you don't think I'm being rude

by saying this, but did you almost have to get over your own

ego about where you thought your

biological children needed to come from?

>> Nigel: Yes, you do. You. I think

you have to have every part of

you, shaken, really. Right. And so

the whole process of getting to that point

was an understanding or

coming to terms with what we didn't have.

And I think, you know, for years, when you are

wrestling with things like infertility and

you are facing up to, what

you don't have, especially when all your friends, you know, are on

number two and number three, and you're thinking to yourself, when's

number one gonna come? And in faith

communities, it can often be the worst place to

wrestle with certain things. Like, you know, I've

talked to my single friends who, like, really don't like being in

church and being single, because people have this

worldview. Or, you know, if you're struggling with

infertility, you know, it's like, God's got good plans for you. You get

lots of Bible thrown at you out of context.

you know, I remember the amount of times people

quoted Jeremiah 29:11 to me, you know,

about, God's got good plans for you. And being a bit of a

sort of, I would call myself a theologian, but I'm. I'm a

studier of the Bible. I had to remind them that the context

of that verse was people in exile.

So, you know, and actually they didn't get yes as an

answer. They got no, you're not going back to

Jerusalem. You're staying in Babylon, and you're going to

build gardens and, and grow

your Families and things like that. So in many ways,

I think just growing up in,

in the church heritage I grew up in,

there was a worldview. And when your worldview

doesn't match up with that, you then

really have a lot of soul searching. And. And if your

ego isn't bruised by that or shaken or

questioned, then I don't know what kind of process

you're going through.

>> Julia: So I know what makes your story different

is the fact that you had to make your decision quite

quickly because you adopted just before

lockdown.

>> Nigel: Yes, that's right.

>> Julia: And so what made you decide to adopt at that

time?

>> Nigel: Yeah, well, the adoption process goes on

for around about 12 to 14 months. It's quicker now,

than it ever was. And our, panel was

sort of in the October of 2019.

So we got approved, but we got matched pretty much before

panel, if truth be told. They found this little

boy with blonde hair, also Welsh heritage.

And I remember just in my heart looking at his photo and

thinking, that's my son. and I really

felt even God's voice to me say, go get

him. You know, go. You know,

in some ways it was like it wasn't even rescue, but it

was, you know, he's my son. Go get him. You know, he's your

son, but he's my son. Go get him, redeem him, bring him

back. And there was this real sort of sense of, of

cool about it, as well as the. All the other emotions

that go with it. And so we got to

January 2020, and the

transition process was approved. And that was going to be,

late February, early March. And

no one had really heard about COVID can

I say that without any necks creaking as people are listening,

you know, COVID 19 or coronavirus.

And then when we started our transition in early March,

second week of March, which was like

mid March, March 12th, 13th, I'm really terr.

times, I think we went into.

>> Julia: Lockdown around the 24th of March, something.

>> Nigel: Yes, that's around about. Right. So we had literally only

just started the process of

transition, and it normally takes about five or six weeks.

I'd had extended leave from work and my wife

did as well. And so we were, you know, in Wales

in a place called Newport, ready to do

this. And we were watching the news from

about the 13th or 14th every morning, growing more and

more concerned because now it was happening where we were.

And one of the buzz spots of COVID

in the very early days was Newport and Southwest.

So, so There were all these hotspots emerging and, and

my wife and I just thought, oh my goodness, like, is this going to

affect anything? So the, the social workers called an

emergency meeting with us on, I think it

was the Thursday before lockdown hit, which was the following

Monday. And they said, right, we know you've only

met him once or twice, but

basically there's going to be a national lockdown coming

into effect next week. So you either take

him home with you tomorrow morning or this

is going to be put on hold.

And so we had one night, literally. I mean, me,

you know, the guy with all the boxes where I thought, oh, you know, I can. At

least we've got another couple of weeks of like, tiny

bit of peace and quiet. That's what I was thinking in my head, like, oh, it's okay, it's all

fine. Then all of a sudden it was this realisation of

it's tomorrow and how.

>> Julia: Do you make that decision?

>> Nigel: I, think you go back to that

heart call again of without sounding too

pious, has God spoken to us about

this? Why are we here? Like, why are we even if

we're not going to do this, why are we even involved in this transition?

Has God always meant for

this boy and these two grownups

to be a family? And we were convinced that

that was the case. So in many ways

we knew the answer. it just took, you know,

just breathing, going m away and

breathing. In some ways it was more about like, oh my

goodness, this is really not panning out the way we thought.

Because then we realised that it wouldn't just be

yes to it and going much earlier,

but in really, really

weird circumstances that all of us

had not experienced in all of our lives before.

So for us it wasn't just lockdown. It was locked down

with a little three year old who didn't know us and

we didn't know him.

>> Julia: I was just thinking that as you were describing, that must have been

a massive transition for all of you. And

I can't, I, like, I mean, we all had our own lockdown experience,

but yours was like, sounds like it was layer on layer

of complication and challenges.

>> Nigel: I didn't know what hit me. I thought I was tired

before and I could hear all my friends who'd had children

laughing in the background. But you know, yeah,

it really was, it was a new world. So we could, you know,

we were stuck in our houses, all of us,

weren't we? And we could go out for an hour every day

and this little boy who'd had a really

unbelievably difficult start to his life,

suddenly found himself in a strange home again,

thinking, who are these two adults? How are they gonna. How are

they gonna treat me? What is this? And so it was

a super, super challenging. There's

no. You can't, you can't. I can't really put any glitter on it.

>> Julia: I was just thinking because from what I've heard of

adoption, quite often the child has had

experiences where they've had a, A person in their life

who's then disappeared and things. So your son must

have had that, Are they gonna disappear on me? But then instead

you were there all the time.

>> Nigel: Yes. He was probably thinking, when am I gonna get some space?

well, they did an exercise when we did adoption training

where all the potential adoptive

parents were holding pieces of string all at different parts.

And then they were saying, when a child moves, what do

they lose from where they were before? And you cut a piece of

string, you know, whether it's like foster parents,

pets that were in the house, toys,

clubs, and suddenly you go through it and all these

pieces of string are just falling everywhere and you're thinking, this

is this little child's world, probably for

the second or third time, and they're three.

That even though in some ways

the removal from the first place

was for safety, he

still lost. He still lost. You

know, he. You know, we can

sometimes over glorify the fact that, well, you know,

it's great that they were, rescued, but

you can't take away from the fact that they lost

something. So, you know, it

was a real challenge. It was a real, real challenge. And

we encountered lots of different

behaviours, coping mechanisms

and were, thankful for some

of the training we had, the friends we had. We could

FaceTime. But really it was a journey

that. And you can get all the advice you want, but you have to

journey it together

because that's where the healing comes. It's in that sort of

organic moment of I'm staring at this situation and

it's really awful, messy, awkward,

painful. But I've got to be there in

the moment with this, with this little one.

And, that's really, for me, the Kingdom of God.

>> Julia: Wow. I was just thinking, it's now been five years

since COVID How. How has life

changed for you?

>> Nigel: it really shows you how selfish you are

initially. Like, they always say, like, you know, if you get

married, you don't realise how selfish you are. But then when you

have a child, I think it takes you to another level again.

So it's that kind of thing of the living

a life where you are not just thinking of

yourself. So I've got a very busy

job that involves a lot of travel, and I literally have to

plan my travel around being a home or,

oh, gosh, I'm away the X amount of time here.

Therefore, this child who

has, you know, separation anxiety, really high

levels. So every time I leave, he will ask me the

question, are you coming back?

And I've come back every time for five years, and he

still asks me all, right, so this is why, you

know, instantaneous healing is great. But

for the majority of us, the truth is that

healing is an everyday journey of

putting one foot in front of the other. And

so every day he asks when I go, are you coming back,

dad? or when I'm away, we face

time and he sees where I am, he

sees who I'm with, and it gives him a

sense of security that,

you know, oh, you are, you're still, you're still here. You

haven't like, been ruptured anywhere and you know

you're coming back. So

that's been a huge change.

Cubs play dates.

Saturdays are normally my son and I

going out getting breakfast. I mean, you know, I sound

making this sound like it's across to bear, but a McDonald's

breakfast. So, you know, it's not really

helping my, health fitness levels. But,

you know, we, we get the app, we get the sort of packet of fruit

just to make us feel better as well. In the, in the options.

>> Julia: I'm sure there's a lot of running.

>> Nigel: Around with, like, there's a lot of running around. there's

watching movies you would never dream of watching, like

Clifford the Dog, which I can now repeat

backwards. And, it's, it's this. It's the

endless banter of, you know, your

faults being pointed out to you

mercilessly, really. So in

that sense, life has radically change, changed.

and, I'm sure my. If my wife was here, she would give another

nine ways of the way she sees it. But

for me, life's changed quite right. I'm trying to get him into sport and I'm trying

to, I'm trying to. He's at that age where, you know, I'm trying

to influence him, but, you.

>> Julia: Know, is he too cool?

>> Nigel: He's way too cool for me. Apparently the, the

term these days is sigma, right? yeah,

like, so, he told me the other day, dad, you're just not

Sigma. And I thought, what on earth is

Sigma? so I had to Google it and

add, an element of feeling, what my dad probably felt like when I was coming home,

saying words that made no sense to him.

So I'm not Sigma. There you go.

>> Julia: I mean, that's not a bad place to be in Sigma.

>> Nigel: It's not a bad place.

>> Julia: Not bad.

So now, in this time, does it feel like your

heart was already always open to adoption, even

if your brain wasn't?

>> Nigel: no, it wasn't always open. There's two things, I

think, from my tradition of church

that we're really poor at, and that is to

have a theology of waiting

and a theology of suffering. I think there's other,

parts of the body of Christ who embrace that

so much better than from my sort of

evangelical charismatic traditions that I've

grown up in. and I think that sort of this

whole thing of just waiting and

waiting for a pregnancy to come. Well, Obviously

it was 11 years of infertility.

and the reason why we, we held onto it was my wife had a,

A dream early in, in our marriage of this blonde

boy. And she came downstairs one morning and she said,

I just had this dream of this little blonde boy sitting on my

lap. And she said, I felt.

Never felt feelings like it. It was amazing.

And, and we just saw that as a kind of a

sign of, right, it's time to start a family. And

11 years later, nothing had happened

even probably longer than that. But we did fall pregnant

on one occasion. But, we. We lost

our son during the pregnancy,

and that was on our wedding anniversary that happened. So we were

a little bit. I don't know if anyone else who's listening to this

podcast ever gets a little bit angry with God.

I think he's okay with that. I think he kind of, you know, I've

been angry. Yes. I don't think he's full. He hasn't fallen off

his throne yet anyway, as far as I can see.

but we went through this whole waiting. And

so, what the process did was

brought me into attention that I'd not

embraced before, because for me it

was always about, you pray, you get a result, and

you judge the impact on the result. You know, we treat God

sometimes like a key, performance indicator, don't we? You

know, it's like, well, God, you know, these,

These are the KPIs that I've set up. This is how I'm going to measure

success, of you leading me in my life. And when it

doesn't all add up. You know, we are in that, and I don't

think in big sections of the church,

we've created a really good biblical understanding

of waiting is actually something that's part

of. Of the spiritual journey. And then

onto this, what I would call a theology

of. Of suffering. Because I

resisted adoption for years, I just said, this is not for

me. You know, God bless all the people who do it,

and had that kind of quite arrogant attitude.

But in the dark places of things not

happening, I found myself just going into a deep,

deep place with God. You know, we have our

high moments and our low moments. And I think for me, I

had to grieve losing a son.

I had to grieve how it made me feel, how

it made my wife feel. but Psalm

56, verse 8 is the verse that was a

transitional verse for us, which

said, you know, you have captured my tears in your bottle

and recorded each one in your book.

So every tear that I've shed, it's like

God's captured it. He. He remembers our pain

and not so that we can, consistently lament

in our pain for the rest of our lives, because that's a danger,

is we live from a place of pain for the rest of our lives,

but that ultimately he remembers.

>> Julia: I was thinking about how when you were talking

about in that time of sadness

was when you felt closest to God. Because I think in

my life, when things are going well, I find it just

easy to, like, yeah, God, I'm grateful for you. Thank you. And then, like.

But when I'm in that time of sadness, that's when I actually turn to him and

I, like, lay it down with him and have those

conversations. So, yeah, it's a really

powerful message to hear that from someone else who's had a similar experience.

>> Nigel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's, You often

find God in the crushing. It's hard to explain.

I. I used to want to tell all my friends

when things were going wrong that

victory was around the corner. I don't know what kind of language we'd put to

it, but, like, you know, and sometimes

we. We want to run away

from suffering. And who wants to embrace suffering? I mean, like, you

know, that's not something you want to embrace, but

I think sometimes we. We're so

keen to, like, get out of the suffering zone

when something really deep's happening in there. I don't think it's God's

will. I'm not saying that God puts us in Those

places. But I think these things happen. And he meets us

there. In the darkest moments, he

meets us there.

I think if I could just say this one little story.

It was a morning where my wife and I had some really bad

news. Not just about infertility, but

about something else that we were doing with family

and having a family.

And we were heading into,

to London for a medical appointment but it got cancelled

and it was, it was just quite devastating. And so we

walked down towards, the Tower of London.

And what we hadn't realised was this is how sort of not

switched on we were at that particular moment in our lives. We

didn't realise it was the London Marathon. And

so we're walking down going, oh, it's all the crowds. And we

got down and we managed to get over to the riverside

and then they were saying, oh, you know, people are

going to start running in a minute. So we got back up. So we were just

trying to distract ourselves. We had a coffee in our hand

and I was just completely numb.

And all of a sudden, sort of the, you know, the the

Paralympian athletes were coming past and just

watching them was stunning, really. I

could see like groups of two

running and I thought, they're not very competitive.

Why are they, why are they keeping up pace with each other? That's really

strange. I mean that's where my head was. I wasn't even able to

analyse what was going on. And then all of a sudden I realised

they were runners with impaired vision and

many of them completely blind running this

race. And when I looked at them, they were

attached with rope to someone else.

And again, it was that moment of hearing the voice in

your heart. No, no, heavens didn't open. Somebody

didn't come out with a harp and start singing. It was literally

voice in my mind that said, and I really felt it was the Holy Spirit say

to me, that's you and me. You can't see where you're going

at the moment. Life is just

feels abysmal and you

wonder how you're going to get to the finishing line.

But you are, because you're connected to me.

So, and I just felt like then permission

to be okay, that I didn't get it. I didn't have a

good answer for all my questions.

I didn't have all my healing for my pain.

But something was emerging in the midst of all

of that that is now morphing where we are now

into a beautiful story of

family and hospitality and things like that.

>> Julia: You say about it's now merging into beautiful story. But if

I'm being honest, I feel like it's always been a beautiful story.

It's just. It's hard when you're going through those lows.

I was also thinking about how your wife, had

that vision of the blonde boy and you mentioned that your

son has blonde hair.

>> Nigel: Yes.

>> Julia: And I think that in

my brain, at least, God's timing of it,

because he knew it was going to take you those 11 years to

get to a place where you're ready to adopt. And then your son

would be there at that point.

>> Nigel: Yes.

>> Julia: Because if you'd gone any faster, you'd have been too

soon for him.

>> Nigel: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think,

you know, defining beautiful is more,

in my head I'm thinking about. It feels beautiful.

and it, it always was. but. And

again, I think that's the, the earthiness of,

of what we mean by. What we mean by that, you know,

in our current age. he is genetically

so similar to me. That poor guy.

we, do plastic surgeon, so that's okay. But he

looks very like me. And my,

my parents were

flabbergasted when they first met him

because when you look at photos of me at

three and him at three, you know, we're like twins. It's,

it is really. And he's got the same personality as me.

He, he can talk and talk and talk

and he's cheeky and makes people

laugh and he's, you know, he's light hearted.

And, people love hanging out with him. You know, they don't see the

other bits that I'm not mentioning on here when it's, when the

trauma is really kicking in. Because let's not paint

a complete picture of like, glorious,

radiance. But, he is very much. I mean,

I go into the park with him and people will go, wow, your

son really looks like you. And,

I don't even think about him as my adopted son

now. it doesn't even enter my head.

>> Julia: He's just your son.

>> Nigel: He's my son. He's my son.

>> Julia: So what would you say to someone struggling with infertility

or not sure about adoption?

>> Nigel: I would, I wouldn't lob. What I would

do to start with, which is the mistake I made, is I wouldn't

lob them together. I think they're two

separate paths, as I was saying.

>> Julia: Yeah. I was thinking the first bit. What would

you say to someone struggling with them for infertility?

>> Nigel: Yeah.

>> Julia: And then we'll come back to the.

>> Nigel: Second part of the question, but the reason why

it's good to mention it is because

most people do connect those things

together. And

I'm not saying that adoption isn't for

everybody, but I think you

sometimes react very quickly out of our,

our place of pain. And

it's been hard for some people, Some people have

jumped from this infertility journey straight into adoption

because what they really, they want the, they want their child and

I understand that we all have a need to extend

family inside of us but it,

it's, it's, it's as much if not more

about the needs of the child. Right.

and they, it's not that you're

rescuing them because they will bring something to your life that

will be beyond rich, that you know, in

all of the. And again, you know,

I've not gone into, you know, lots of the stuff that

adoptive parents would be sitting there and thinking, yeah,

we know what that's like at three in the morning. Yeah,

we've felt that pain and all the rest of

it. It's all loaded together. So I think for,

in people struggling with infertility I would say

be prayerful about who you surround yourself with

because there's really well meaning people who want the best for you

and say things to you and it's got

to protect your heart a little bit. We had to be

quite discerning about who we would talk to

when people came with all this

good encouragement to us. We were careful about how we,

what we let in. So I think there's an element

of be, be wise, be discerning

and don't run from it.

We didn't adopt for a good

couple of years after we, we lost our son

and then we realised that was pretty much that journey's

done because we wanted to make sure we were doing

it from the right place and that

took time. So I would be saying, I could say 20 things

but they would be the key things.

Advice. M For people who want to adopt.

>> Julia: Yeah. Unsure about adoption.

>> Nigel: Unsure about adoption.

number one, I would encourage anyone to

adopt. I mean I would say pursue it, pray

about it, don't just discard it.

>> Julia: I just want to add, I think adoption is one of the most beautiful things

in this world.

>> Nigel: It is, it is. Well in, in many ways and

again I don't have time to talk about it now but I'm

doing a lot of writing on adoption as a lost biblical

narrative because it's a, ah, narrative of

the gospel. We don't hear talked about we just talk about

decisions and salvation and, you know. But

actually, adoption is not

just central to Paul's theology,

it's found in Hebraic culture. It's just not

called adoption. It comes out in different ways,

but it's family, it's hospitality, it's the

extension to the other. So

adoption is an experience

of the gospel, of the kingdom of God. It's.

It's heaven in a moment on earth. if you

look at the sort of. So adoption process, right?

So we went looking for him,

we found him, he came to

our house with all the stuff that was kicking off

them everywhere. We didn't throw him out. He spent time in our

presence, started to become secure. Now he's

starting to take on some of our mannerisms, like the

way he takes. People say, oh, the way he tells the

stories, like you. And he uses his hands and he said, it's hilarious

because it's like me seeing you. So he starts to take on our

DNA, our, mannerisms. He's in our presence,

he's becoming healed up. He's

realising that, oh, this is a safe place, or

maybe, maybe they are

trustworthy mother and father.

Then the judge rings up nine months down the line and

goes, oh, just to let you know, this boy

who's been in your house now, he's now

legally got your name, so he has the

legal right to all of your estate, everything.

And I'm looking over at him with chocolate all over his face, his

foot up like that, you know, picking his nose, and I'm thinking,

what have you done to get into

this position? Zilch.

That's good news.

That's good news. That's why the

gospel of adoption is essential. And

in this moment of our history,

people everywhere need to know that there's a place at the table

for them.

>> Julia: I'm blown away.

so if you're not sure about doing adoption,

you said, just do it.

>> Nigel: Yeah. I suddenly realised I didn't really answer your question, did

I? Yes. I think you should

explore it. And I think sometimes

people spend 10 years thinking about it.

Don't spend 10 years thinking about it. And if you're not

convinced, just take the next step. Right? It's the psalm I

quoted. Just take the next. Some people have gone, they've

gone through the training. They've got to the point where, oh, right, we'll

start looking and matching and they've gone, I'm

out. But you never know. You never know

until you take the next step and the next step. And if

if you don't feel terrified, then you're not

human. I, I felt

complete and utter terror most of the time. I'm not

gonna, like, glorify it. Even

to the point where when he came in my car and I drove him home

and when he walked into my house and he looked at me and I

looked at him and we were like, right, we're going

to be negotiating space here now, sunshine. You know,

it was like, how do I do this? But

isn't that the life of every parent?

Isn't that the life of every parent? When a child

gets to this age, it's a new set of challenges when they get

to that age. I hear parents when I think, actually,

that's life. So, if, if

you felt something in you

stir, go for it.

if you are trying to rescue a child, don't

let that be the only thing that's the driver.

Because sometimes we want to be the rescuers. But

actually what that child will bring to you,

yes. Disappointment, pain, all rest. Yes, absolutely.

But there will be something deep, something rich. I mean,

I walked my son to school this morning before I came here

and I've been away all week and you

know, he lets me know, when I've been away all week, that, that's not great.

But we reconnected this morning and

we. He made me laugh all the way to school

now. He was a nightmare to get out of the house. I mean, I

was pulling my hair out and there's not a lot of it. I was

pulling my hair. We're going to be late. We're going to be late. Come on.

You know, you know, he's hopping down the stairs with one shoe

on. You know, that's an eight year old for you. It's an eight year old.

And. But then literally switch into this,

like, comedy zone. And I suddenly dropped him off and thought,

yeah, that, that's life.

That's life. Do it, go for it. You know,

if one. I think I read a statistic the other day, so

I'm talking to the Christian community here,

but I would love all people to do it. But to my Christian friends

who are listening, if one family

in every church in the

UK adopted one child, there would be no

social care crisis in this country.

>> Julia: Also blowing my mind that

I can't get to my next question. It was too

powerful a moment.

so what do you wish you knew before stepping into adoption?

>> Nigel: do you know what? I'm gonna really throw this on its head

and say, I'm glad I Didn't know

the things I know now because I wouldn't have done

it. And I think that's part of

learning. I think that's part of life.

That's why God doesn't shine the street to you.

He shines the feet to you. Because,

if you saw the street, you'd be like, when we get to that,

that part of the road, I'm out. I don't, I. That's

not. I don't want to do that. I mean, how many of us would

be on the journeys we're on now if we saw the street at

the beginning? you know, I mean, you might get some really

good, faithful, faith filled people,

pious people who say, oh, no, I've, you know,

I am crucified with Christ. And I always knew it was going to

be like that.

>> Julia: Ah.

>> Nigel: And I'm like, well, God bless you. You can pray for me

regularly. Because I would never, have that

amount of courage. So I think, I think I've

probably alluded to some of the things I would say to my previous

self in the encouragement of if

you're thinking of doing this or if you're wrestling with this.

But I'm actually grateful

that. And if you said to me, now go and tell

your previous self this, I'd say I turn around

to myself in the mirror and say, don't, don't.

Because there's power in the growing, there's power in the

stretching, there's power in the learning. So that's what I

probably would say to my, to myself is just

make sure your foundations are solid. But I,

would be very cheeky and say, but I'm not telling you anything else

you're gonna have to learn.

>> Julia: I mean, that's the best story, right? Not when you can flip

to the back and read the last pages when you're going through

the journey.

Thank you for joining us.

>> Nigel: Thank you.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to things I wish I knew. I know this

episode is going to stay with me because the way Nigel shared his

story, there were several moments in this episode where I had to stop,

and reflect on what he'd said, including the fact Nigel

said about if one family in every church adopted one child,

there wouldn't be a social care crisis.

How about you? We'd love to hear about how Nigel's story

resonated with you. And why not also tell us if you're

facing an experience you wish you knew how to look at differently,

It m might just be something you can help with. You

can find out more about this theme and others@,

thinkingfaith.org thank you again for

listening, and I hope you'll join me again next time on Things

I Wish I Knew.