1 00:00:03,713 --> 00:00:06,413 Andy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94. 2 00:00:06,413 --> 00:00:09,113 My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Private Eye Office with 3 00:00:09,113 --> 00:00:11,483 Helen Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop. 4 00:00:11,833 --> 00:00:12,523 It's too hot. 5 00:00:12,973 --> 00:00:16,993 At least two of the members of this podcast have breached the Shorts Rubicon. 6 00:00:17,449 --> 00:00:20,804 but we're going to try and cool ourselves down by taking ourselves north, several 7 00:00:20,804 --> 00:00:26,144 hundred miles to Scotland, where Nicholas Sturgeon, uh, former first minister for 8 00:00:26,354 --> 00:00:31,240 what was over eight years, last seen, I think by a lot of listeners to this 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,780 podcast, or lots of people who are even, you know, pretty up with the news, um, 10 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:39,340 being arrested before being released, uh, and having a crime scene tent erected 11 00:00:39,340 --> 00:00:41,050 in her garden, all sorts of fun stuff. 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,545 She has written a new memoir, which has been, received as being very frank. 13 00:00:45,545 --> 00:00:49,712 In fact, it's called frankly, it's, uh, had a lot of serialization, a 14 00:00:49,712 --> 00:00:53,732 lot of hype, and it seems to be a chance to appraise the whole kind of 15 00:00:53,732 --> 00:00:56,432 Sturgeon project such as it was or is. 16 00:00:56,432 --> 00:00:59,702 And the fact the whole of the SMP and Ian, you have a special expertise 17 00:00:59,702 --> 00:01:03,392 of this 'cause you spent many years receiving lots of correspondence from 18 00:01:03,392 --> 00:01:04,982 readers north of the border, I believe. 19 00:01:05,582 --> 00:01:06,032 Ian: Yes. 20 00:01:06,053 --> 00:01:09,503 a lot of Scottish readers wrote in over the last decade saying, 21 00:01:09,503 --> 00:01:10,763 why don't you cover Scotland? 22 00:01:11,123 --> 00:01:14,723 And then whenever we covered Scotland, they said, you patronizing bastards. 23 00:01:14,963 --> 00:01:16,883 Why don't you leave Nicola Sturgeon alone? 24 00:01:17,183 --> 00:01:19,313 Um, you have no idea. 25 00:01:19,583 --> 00:01:22,673 Uh, what a great leader she is, certainly compared to yours. 26 00:01:22,913 --> 00:01:27,563 Do you want Boris Johnson slash whoever is in Theresa May she? 27 00:01:27,563 --> 00:01:27,803 Soon. 28 00:01:27,803 --> 00:01:29,633 Now we've got Nicola Sturgeon. 29 00:01:30,014 --> 00:01:33,318 so the correspondence, which again, doesn't say that anymore, there 30 00:01:33,318 --> 00:01:35,298 was a fairly dramatic reversal. 31 00:01:35,538 --> 00:01:41,238 Um, but this, I think is, is an attempt to, certainly an attempt by, um, Nicholas 32 00:01:41,238 --> 00:01:43,458 Sturgeon to rehabilitate herself. 33 00:01:43,698 --> 00:01:48,775 , And again, any memoir that says frankly on it, is gonna get people to say, 34 00:01:48,775 --> 00:01:55,285 well, really, um, and I noticed one of the blurbs said Alan Johnson former, 35 00:01:55,645 --> 00:01:59,185 uh, labor Home Secretary, he said, um, he described the quality of the 36 00:01:59,185 --> 00:02:04,795 book as unflinching honesty, and even on the, , extracts, which I've read. 37 00:02:05,455 --> 00:02:09,895 I, I feel politicians should remember when talking about other politicians 38 00:02:09,895 --> 00:02:14,095 that their standards of unflinching honesty aren't necessarily ours. 39 00:02:14,404 --> 00:02:18,460 I remember one of the quotes, from Nicholas Sturgeon was about the SNP 40 00:02:18,460 --> 00:02:22,690 finances, and she said at one point, we're not talking about the finances. 41 00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:24,430 There's nothing wrong with the finances. 42 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,220 I mean, she was a cos signatory of the SNP finances with, with her husband 43 00:02:31,090 --> 00:02:33,070 and with the treasurer, Colin Beatie. 44 00:02:33,130 --> 00:02:38,495 Um, so, there are questions to be addressed and whether they are, I'm. 45 00:02:38,500 --> 00:02:38,600 I'm 46 00:02:39,355 --> 00:02:41,995 Obviously very interested in the money 'cause I found the camper 47 00:02:41,995 --> 00:02:46,010 Van very funny and the one of the longest police investigations ever. 48 00:02:46,370 --> 00:02:49,880 Um, which the Scottish police were a trifle slow. 49 00:02:50,030 --> 00:02:54,050 Having a look into the finances of the governing party running Scotland, 50 00:02:54,170 --> 00:02:58,550 the reasons that are not fully discussed so far in the extract. 51 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:03,320 I mean, Helen will talk about the other, um, integrity and honesty issues, um, 52 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,300 in, in, in the Scottish government. 53 00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:09,446 But I think, so far we've had a, a, a bit of a gush on this book. 54 00:03:09,585 --> 00:03:11,685 and I'll be interested to see where it goes. 55 00:03:11,875 --> 00:03:12,085 Andy: Can we 56 00:03:12,085 --> 00:03:13,720 just remind ourselves what the camper Van was? 57 00:03:14,375 --> 00:03:18,845 Adam: So the camper Van was, uh, allegedly, uh, purchased with money 58 00:03:18,845 --> 00:03:21,455 that was supposed to go, there was supposed to be ring fenced, wasn't 59 00:03:21,455 --> 00:03:22,115 it, for a second 60 00:03:22,130 --> 00:03:24,500 Helen: was whether or not it was a campaign vehicle, essentially 61 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:27,170 that was whether or not it was for official purposes only or whether 62 00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:29,720 or not it was being, to use to tour the Highlands and Islands, I 63 00:03:29,735 --> 00:03:32,855 Adam: But it turned out to be parked on the driveway of Peter 64 00:03:33,125 --> 00:03:38,075 Mull Nichols, Sturgeon's husband and chair of the SMPs um, a mother, yeah. 65 00:03:38,105 --> 00:03:38,585 Yes. 66 00:03:38,585 --> 00:03:41,675 Who, and she I think was about 92 and didn't drive, certainly 67 00:03:41,675 --> 00:03:42,965 didn't drive large camper Van. 68 00:03:42,965 --> 00:03:44,195 So it all did look 69 00:03:44,915 --> 00:03:45,125 Ian: Yeah. 70 00:03:45,125 --> 00:03:48,207 And they did actually have the battle bus, the SMP. 71 00:03:48,207 --> 00:03:50,097 So this would've been a reserve 72 00:03:50,097 --> 00:03:50,457 battle 73 00:03:50,457 --> 00:03:50,967 bus. 74 00:03:50,997 --> 00:03:53,757 Andy: Well, often, often a super yacht will have another yacht behind 75 00:03:53,757 --> 00:03:56,547 it, won't it, to carry the boring things in the staff, you know? 76 00:03:56,547 --> 00:03:58,077 So I think that all sounds 77 00:03:58,228 --> 00:03:58,392 Helen: fine. 78 00:03:58,482 --> 00:04:01,002 I mean, we should say, um, Peter Morrow's still under investigation. 79 00:04:01,002 --> 00:04:03,612 He appeared in court in March and, and to no plea. 80 00:04:03,612 --> 00:04:06,492 He's got, um, talking about the camp fund being impounded. 81 00:04:06,492 --> 00:04:07,722 He's got legal aid. 82 00:04:07,722 --> 00:04:11,802 He was just granted last month because his assets are frozen and he's unemployed. 83 00:04:11,997 --> 00:04:12,237 Andy: So 84 00:04:12,237 --> 00:04:13,312 are the charges that are being 85 00:04:13,537 --> 00:04:15,427 Helen: He, yeah, he's, he's still care basing charges. 86 00:04:15,427 --> 00:04:17,767 Against Sturgeon there is no further investigation nor 87 00:04:17,767 --> 00:04:19,057 against, uh, Colin Beatie. 88 00:04:19,537 --> 00:04:22,237 But yeah, she talked about that as you know, saying it was, it was incredibly 89 00:04:22,237 --> 00:04:23,647 traumatic being under investigation. 90 00:04:23,647 --> 00:04:24,937 It was the worst time of her life. 91 00:04:24,937 --> 00:04:27,937 And then there's a delicious little sentence in it where she says, 92 00:04:28,147 --> 00:04:31,597 nothing I am saying here reflects on anyway about Peter's situation. 93 00:04:32,107 --> 00:04:33,127 You think, oh, it's a bit harsh. 94 00:04:33,367 --> 00:04:35,347 You were, you weren't married to him. 95 00:04:35,347 --> 00:04:37,447 You could probably be a bit more effusive in your praise for him. 96 00:04:37,747 --> 00:04:38,887 They're now in the process. 97 00:04:38,887 --> 00:04:40,477 They're separated in the process of divorcing. 98 00:04:40,627 --> 00:04:41,767 But Ian, you're exactly right. 99 00:04:41,977 --> 00:04:45,277 The thing always has, has been annoying about this all the way along is that 100 00:04:45,277 --> 00:04:48,787 she would say it's very un feminist to define me in terms of my husband. 101 00:04:49,087 --> 00:04:51,457 And people would go, your husband is the chief executive of the 102 00:04:51,457 --> 00:04:53,017 SNP, of which you are leader. 103 00:04:53,047 --> 00:04:56,137 Like this is, this is a relevant thing that journalists might wanna talk 104 00:04:56,137 --> 00:04:56,467 about. 105 00:04:57,432 --> 00:04:59,682 But from my point of view, the thing that's fascinating when you talk to 106 00:04:59,682 --> 00:05:03,882 people in Scotland, one thing that comes up is that the s and p was too dominant 107 00:05:03,882 --> 00:05:07,962 and the Scottish political culture and, and, uh, was too small and homogenous. 108 00:05:08,022 --> 00:05:10,662 The s and p got kind of into a one party state. 109 00:05:10,662 --> 00:05:13,962 But you know, the way that Hollywood was designed was with the proportional 110 00:05:13,962 --> 00:05:16,782 vote was designed so that you'd usually have coalitions, but they 111 00:05:16,782 --> 00:05:19,542 went through a long period where they were just supremely dominant. 112 00:05:19,902 --> 00:05:22,842 And then all cultural organizations, you know, knew they had to be 113 00:05:22,842 --> 00:05:23,952 within the favor of the s and p. 114 00:05:23,952 --> 00:05:26,292 All the charities knew that, you know, all of that. 115 00:05:26,412 --> 00:05:28,662 It was just, you know, she was not to mention 116 00:05:28,682 --> 00:05:29,742 Ian: the civil service and the 117 00:05:29,742 --> 00:05:29,942 police. 118 00:05:29,972 --> 00:05:30,262 Yeah, 119 00:05:30,342 --> 00:05:30,582 I just 120 00:05:30,582 --> 00:05:31,022 throw that in. 121 00:05:31,192 --> 00:05:31,542 right. 122 00:05:31,842 --> 00:05:31,992 Helen: But 123 00:05:31,992 --> 00:05:35,082 she was kind of, essentially it was King Alex, and then it was Queen Nicola. 124 00:05:35,442 --> 00:05:39,192 And I think that just made for a really unhealthy political culture in 125 00:05:39,192 --> 00:05:39,620 Scotland. 126 00:05:40,137 --> 00:05:46,560 Ian: And the extracts do go into the, um, the row between Alex Salmon, who 127 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,140 was her mentor, and Nicola Sturgeon. 128 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,550 And I mean, she does say at one point, you know, ours was the most successful 129 00:05:53,550 --> 00:05:55,380 partnership in Scottish politics. 130 00:05:55,380 --> 00:05:57,810 And you think, well, not, not at the end, it wasn't. 131 00:05:57,840 --> 00:05:57,900 No. 132 00:05:58,050 --> 00:06:03,120 Um, and there is, there's a real problem in that I noticed the Scottish newspapers 133 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,400 are having a bit of a row because she suggested now that he's dead, um, that he 134 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,870 leaked, uh, some of this information to a newspaper, which the newspaper has denied. 135 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:18,180 Um, and are you unflinching transparency and honesty when you're having a go 136 00:06:18,180 --> 00:06:19,740 at someone from beyond the grave? 137 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:19,800 Is, 138 00:06:20,490 --> 00:06:20,700 Is 139 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:21,450 that fair? 140 00:06:21,544 --> 00:06:21,934 Helen: Oh yeah. 141 00:06:21,934 --> 00:06:24,484 I mean, the reaction to it has been very sharply divided. 142 00:06:24,814 --> 00:06:28,894 Remember, not least because of the, the, the charges against Alex Salmon, which 143 00:06:28,894 --> 00:06:30,274 of which he was acquitted of all of them. 144 00:06:30,544 --> 00:06:31,954 That plus the gender hours. 145 00:06:31,954 --> 00:06:34,054 What caused the break off of Alba? 146 00:06:34,084 --> 00:06:35,554 The breakaway independence party. 147 00:06:35,554 --> 00:06:40,444 That was then, and, and that took lots of both SMP activists, sort of middle-aged 148 00:06:40,444 --> 00:06:44,404 women who had been the backbone of the SMP, walked out into Alba, which was 149 00:06:44,404 --> 00:06:47,164 always a strange thing at the time to go, you know, go into a party led by a guy 150 00:06:47,164 --> 00:06:48,814 who was then under investigation for sex 151 00:06:48,819 --> 00:06:48,959 Yeah. 152 00:06:48,959 --> 00:06:49,984 That was salmon's party. 153 00:06:49,984 --> 00:06:50,197 That was salmon's party. 154 00:06:50,197 --> 00:06:54,424 That was salmon's party, but that they were so teed off with Nicola Sturgeon. 155 00:06:54,424 --> 00:06:57,274 The way she handled the gender route, I think was what the main problem, 156 00:06:57,274 --> 00:07:00,664 more than just her attitude to it, which is that she just said anyone who 157 00:07:00,664 --> 00:07:02,074 disagreed with her was illegitimate. 158 00:07:02,074 --> 00:07:05,374 She said at one point that anyone who disagreed with her on self-identification 159 00:07:05,374 --> 00:07:09,724 of gender was actually racist, which was a very rogue allegation to bring in. 160 00:07:09,724 --> 00:07:11,824 I mean, you could see, you know, transphobic or sexist or whatever. 161 00:07:11,974 --> 00:07:13,444 So they, they were basically just. 162 00:07:13,694 --> 00:07:16,334 Straight up reactionaries, 1950s reactionaries. 163 00:07:16,334 --> 00:07:18,314 That's the only reason anyone would disagree with her. 164 00:07:18,644 --> 00:07:20,714 And that caused a huge amount of ill feeling. 165 00:07:20,744 --> 00:07:24,554 'cause people didn't just feel disagreed with, they felt disrespected by her. 166 00:07:24,824 --> 00:07:28,094 And that's why I think, as you're saying in the reactions has been so strong. 167 00:07:28,214 --> 00:07:30,374 It's not just that people disagree with her, it's just they feel 168 00:07:30,374 --> 00:07:34,574 that she was pious and domineering and that that, and anyone who 169 00:07:34,574 --> 00:07:36,194 disagreed with her was illegitimate. 170 00:07:36,194 --> 00:07:39,014 Which first came up in the context of it, independence, right? 171 00:07:39,014 --> 00:07:42,134 The idea that anyone who didn't vote s and p or didn't want independence 172 00:07:42,134 --> 00:07:43,454 was talking Scotland down. 173 00:07:43,514 --> 00:07:46,514 You didn't believe in Scotland enough to believe that it could be independent. 174 00:07:46,964 --> 00:07:49,184 So there was, people felt that they were, you know, being told 175 00:07:49,184 --> 00:07:50,204 that their views are illegitimate. 176 00:07:50,204 --> 00:07:53,774 And that, and then that same feeling ported onto to gender as well. 177 00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:54,199 Ian: And 178 00:07:54,199 --> 00:07:58,969 in the gender row, it wasn't, um, uh, English liberals or English 179 00:07:58,969 --> 00:08:01,549 reactionaries or English transphobes. 180 00:08:01,549 --> 00:08:02,839 It was Scottish women. 181 00:08:03,229 --> 00:08:03,619 Um, 182 00:08:03,709 --> 00:08:08,179 and so that made certainly the, the, the previous, um, set of 183 00:08:08,179 --> 00:08:12,169 assumptions that anyone who criticizes Nicola Sturgeon is either not 184 00:08:12,589 --> 00:08:14,869 patriotically, Scottish or English, 185 00:08:15,139 --> 00:08:15,379 uh, 186 00:08:15,614 --> 00:08:16,549 Helen: But that's the framing that they 187 00:08:16,549 --> 00:08:17,449 wanted to have. 188 00:08:17,869 --> 00:08:21,649 When, um, the gender recognition reform bill was passed, voted for by all of the 189 00:08:21,649 --> 00:08:24,919 parties except the Scottish Conservatives, which would've brought in self id, 190 00:08:24,919 --> 00:08:28,939 it was then blocked by Alistair Jack, the conservative Scottish secretary. 191 00:08:29,059 --> 00:08:32,239 So that point, it was very neat for the SMP that they were saying, you 192 00:08:32,239 --> 00:08:35,599 know, reactionary old toy voting, England has once again blocked 193 00:08:35,749 --> 00:08:37,729 Scottish enlightened progressivism. 194 00:08:37,999 --> 00:08:40,369 But as you say, there's a brilliant anthology called The Women Who Wouldn't 195 00:08:40,369 --> 00:08:44,959 Wish, which is by all of these activists who did unbelievably large amounts 196 00:08:44,959 --> 00:08:48,679 of unpaid work because the civil servants was just completely on board 197 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,329 with the entire search and agenda. 198 00:08:50,749 --> 00:08:54,979 But yeah, it was always presented as being essentially evil Tory, old England 199 00:08:54,979 --> 00:08:56,839 versus liberal enlightened Scotland. 200 00:08:57,019 --> 00:08:59,599 And that's, that was the framing that really appealed to the SMP during 201 00:08:59,599 --> 00:09:00,114 those years. 202 00:09:00,349 --> 00:09:04,459 Ian: And it, it became accepted in England during COVID in particular 203 00:09:04,609 --> 00:09:08,985 because, any broadcast by Boris was followed by a broadcast by Nicola 204 00:09:08,985 --> 00:09:12,090 Sturgeon in which she looked, not like 205 00:09:12,090 --> 00:09:12,360 him. 206 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:12,510 Yeah. 207 00:09:12,750 --> 00:09:14,130 And, and that was plenty. 208 00:09:14,262 --> 00:09:15,372 Helen: Yeah, I, I know what you mean. 209 00:09:15,372 --> 00:09:18,402 I think she did have a final renaissance was during COVID because the feeling was 210 00:09:18,402 --> 00:09:20,352 that she was taking it very seriously. 211 00:09:20,352 --> 00:09:21,372 She was being sober. 212 00:09:21,372 --> 00:09:25,062 And in contrast to Boris Johnson saying in March, 2020, I'm still out there 213 00:09:25,062 --> 00:09:29,202 shaking hands, you know, whatever that said that she did, then I think 214 00:09:29,202 --> 00:09:31,662 go too far the other way, which now people are criticizing her for. 215 00:09:31,662 --> 00:09:34,782 So Scotland for example, kept schools closed longer. 216 00:09:35,232 --> 00:09:37,332 Um, you know, she had more virus restrictions. 217 00:09:37,332 --> 00:09:40,122 So, but then those arguments, I mean you can see it's still in America 218 00:09:40,122 --> 00:09:42,642 now are still playing on about exactly how quickly restrictions 219 00:09:42,642 --> 00:09:42,882 should have 220 00:09:42,882 --> 00:09:43,002 been 221 00:09:43,002 --> 00:09:43,422 lifted. 222 00:09:43,741 --> 00:09:43,921 Ian: and 223 00:09:43,921 --> 00:09:48,031 once that reputation she'd got for being much more marvelous than anything 224 00:09:48,031 --> 00:09:51,541 that was going on in English, it meant no criticism was acceptable. 225 00:09:51,661 --> 00:09:54,031 So the Iran pieces about these 226 00:09:54,031 --> 00:09:54,301 two 227 00:09:54,301 --> 00:09:54,871 ferries 228 00:09:54,871 --> 00:09:55,111 that 229 00:09:55,591 --> 00:09:59,821 took decades to produce staggering millions, and then they make 230 00:09:59,821 --> 00:10:01,441 HS two begin to look fast. 231 00:10:02,221 --> 00:10:05,341 Um, it, it's not a specifically English problem. 232 00:10:05,431 --> 00:10:10,381 And there were problems in Scotland, uh, with education, um, with drugs, 233 00:10:10,381 --> 00:10:14,641 with leveling up, all of which were just buried under this assumption that 234 00:10:14,791 --> 00:10:18,751 because you are not an English Tory, therefore you are a huge success. 235 00:10:18,781 --> 00:10:22,471 Andy: So this is what I wanted to ask about really, is there seems to be at the 236 00:10:22,471 --> 00:10:26,765 heart of s and p government they're making two big offers to the electorate, as it 237 00:10:26,765 --> 00:10:31,660 were, The first of which is, we're gonna run Scotland better than, Westminster 238 00:10:31,660 --> 00:10:33,850 politicians can possibly run us. 239 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:35,380 And the second is independence. 240 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:38,080 And those both seem to have fallen short. 241 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,590 I mean, obviously the independence referendum in 2014, there's been a 242 00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:44,350 consistent attempt to say, we're gonna have another referendum, we're going to 243 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,770 get an A concession from Westminster, that we will have another one of these. 244 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,220 And the support for independence, I think is about, is roughly where it has 245 00:10:51,220 --> 00:10:53,590 been for some years, which is about 50%. 246 00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:55,510 You know, it's pretty close either way, 247 00:10:55,570 --> 00:10:55,930 but 248 00:10:56,350 --> 00:10:58,630 the odds of another referendum seem quite slim 249 00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:58,780 at the 250 00:10:59,140 --> 00:11:01,870 Helen: John Sweeney, current first minister does not seem to be holding 251 00:11:01,870 --> 00:11:04,600 it out as the kind of shining grail over the hill in the way that I 252 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,640 think both salmon and Sturgeon did. 253 00:11:07,005 --> 00:11:09,520 And, and you are right in post 'cause you remember immediately 254 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,630 after the affair referendums 2014 and then the 2015 election, general 255 00:11:13,630 --> 00:11:16,030 election, the s and p just cleans up. 256 00:11:16,030 --> 00:11:16,210 It's 257 00:11:16,210 --> 00:11:16,510 just a 258 00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:17,320 wipe 259 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:18,340 out across Scotland. 260 00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:20,380 So there was this sense that although they'd lost the 261 00:11:20,380 --> 00:11:24,220 referendum, they had won this sort of larger moral victory, I think. 262 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,950 But that's been eroded, you know, their power sharing agreement 263 00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:28,570 with the greens collapsed. 264 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:32,890 Um, we lost, uh, hums Yusef in, you know, didn't last very long as first minister. 265 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,710 They're in a much more kind of humble position than they 266 00:11:35,710 --> 00:11:37,000 were, and I think that's why. 267 00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:39,660 Probably, I mean, I also think Nicholas Sturgeon has wanted to 268 00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:42,035 write this memoir because she's a genuine lover of literature and, 269 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,680 and books and reading like that. 270 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:45,780 I don't think that is famed for the cameras at all. 271 00:11:45,780 --> 00:11:47,910 She's one of the few people who still reads literary 272 00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:49,560 fiction with genuine pleasure. 273 00:11:49,860 --> 00:11:50,220 But I, 274 00:11:50,220 --> 00:11:54,211 I am really kind of fascinated because it, as Ian's saying, it's, it's. 275 00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:55,050 Billing itself 276 00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:55,320 was kind 277 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:55,860 of complete 278 00:11:56,460 --> 00:12:00,495 transparency, but she doesn't actually want to concede that she was wrong in uh, 279 00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:01,950 uh, in anything that I've seen her doing. 280 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:04,590 The gender era being really obvious, right, in that there was a rabbi 281 00:12:04,590 --> 00:12:07,140 about sending a biologically male rapist to a woman's prison. 282 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:10,110 And she said at the time, you know, I don't, I, you know, the 283 00:12:10,110 --> 00:12:12,450 individuals a rapist when asked if they were man or a woman. 284 00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:15,990 And now she sort of says, well, probably, actually, probably I got that one wrong. 285 00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:18,840 And you're like, but okay, well if you think you did maybe get that 286 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:18,960 one 287 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:19,140 wrong, 288 00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:21,900 why did you think it was completely illegitimate for anyone to 289 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:22,680 disagree with you at the time? 290 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,620 Explain what changed your mind and what you'd like to say to the people 291 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:26,790 on the other side of that debate. 292 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:29,070 This is the bit, maybe this is in the book, we haven't read it. 293 00:12:29,220 --> 00:12:31,500 That comes out on Thursday, but that's what, that's the bit I'm 294 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:32,730 struggling with at the moment. 295 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,950 Ian: the joke in the eyes always, all political memoirs should be called, I 296 00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:37,600 Was Right and Everyone else was wrong. 297 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,040 And this one is being billed as, this isn't like, um, other political memoirs 298 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,600 and what I've read so far, it is, 299 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:44,740 um, 300 00:12:45,250 --> 00:12:49,210 uh, she was right about nearly everything and possibly for perfectly 301 00:12:49,210 --> 00:12:52,750 good reasons wrong about various other things and some other things 302 00:12:52,750 --> 00:12:56,110 she can't talk about, uh, because there's still an ongoing investigation. 303 00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:56,680 So. 304 00:12:57,850 --> 00:12:59,050 Frankly, yeah. 305 00:12:59,380 --> 00:13:03,820 Andy: Ish is, is part of this just the kind of inevitable tension 306 00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:06,760 between having run somewhere for nearly 20 years, which is how long 307 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,820 the s and p have been in office in Scotland under their various leaders. 308 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:13,240 And now that's the sort of time span over which you would expect to have 309 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,180 memoirs coming out saying, well, this is what it was like when I was in, 310 00:13:16,180 --> 00:13:19,210 and this is, you know, this is why I made the decisions I did and why 311 00:13:19,210 --> 00:13:20,530 they've turned out the way they have. 312 00:13:20,530 --> 00:13:24,370 But the s and p is still in office, so it's sort of not quite a natural 313 00:13:24,370 --> 00:13:25,330 time for this book to be out. 314 00:13:25,330 --> 00:13:28,360 Now you'd, you'd normally have that after an election that's gone the other way. 315 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,650 Ian: And I think because this. 316 00:13:30,385 --> 00:13:34,795 The police investigation into the, you know, the hierarchy of the governments 317 00:13:34,795 --> 00:13:40,752 running the country took so long and was so delayed and, and, in the end managed 318 00:13:41,022 --> 00:13:45,881 not to date, to have got very far, um, in terms of explaining what happened with 319 00:13:45,881 --> 00:13:50,771 any of this, um, everyone was quiet, so they didn't publish their own memoirs. 320 00:13:51,011 --> 00:13:54,551 I haven't read books about what it was like to be at the center 321 00:13:54,851 --> 00:13:57,714 of, this near one party state. 322 00:13:57,774 --> 00:13:58,674 How did that feel? 323 00:13:58,674 --> 00:13:59,994 Where, where are those books? 324 00:14:00,204 --> 00:14:01,314 Uh, they're not 325 00:14:01,314 --> 00:14:01,614 there, 326 00:14:01,614 --> 00:14:01,974 are they? 327 00:14:02,409 --> 00:14:05,079 Helen: I mean, David Torrance wrote biographies of both Salmon 328 00:14:05,079 --> 00:14:07,779 and Sturgeon, which are very good, um, and worth reading if you're 329 00:14:07,779 --> 00:14:09,009 interested in scholarship politics. 330 00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:13,299 But actually, I haven't read the Insiders View in the way that you might have a. 331 00:14:13,794 --> 00:14:16,254 Like an Alan Johnson or a Chris Mullen or somebody like that. 332 00:14:16,254 --> 00:14:18,204 And that would be really fascinating to read. 333 00:14:18,909 --> 00:14:20,379 Ian: Yeah, let alone a, a Sasha 334 00:14:20,379 --> 00:14:21,669 Swire, uh, 335 00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:22,019 Helen: or 336 00:14:22,099 --> 00:14:22,219 a, 337 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:22,739 um, 338 00:14:23,184 --> 00:14:23,884 Ian: Mrs. Gove. 339 00:14:24,344 --> 00:14:27,939 Um, and that would be interesting 'cause the, it's a very small 340 00:14:27,939 --> 00:14:29,229 group of people who were in power. 341 00:14:29,259 --> 00:14:31,719 They were all very, very close to each other. 342 00:14:31,949 --> 00:14:35,939 , The Alex Salmon affair, which was, um, you know, he was, , investigated then. 343 00:14:35,939 --> 00:14:40,439 He was tried, and then he was cleared on all charges, though his barrister said 344 00:14:40,439 --> 00:14:42,479 he, he could have been a better man. 345 00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:46,791 But these were all people, they all knew really well. 346 00:14:47,031 --> 00:14:51,831 And if you're gonna do a book called, Frankly, the idea that you didn't discuss 347 00:14:51,831 --> 00:14:56,421 this all the time with your husband, who just happened to be in charge of the 348 00:14:56,421 --> 00:14:58,491 party as well, and all your other friends. 349 00:14:58,626 --> 00:15:00,291 This, this won't wash. 350 00:15:00,441 --> 00:15:01,221 Well, maybe it is 351 00:15:01,461 --> 00:15:04,221 Andy: actually should have been called, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn, but 352 00:15:04,221 --> 00:15:06,141 the publisher said, maybe just trim that 353 00:15:06,141 --> 00:15:06,321 down 354 00:15:06,321 --> 00:15:06,621 a bit. 355 00:15:06,891 --> 00:15:07,911 Everyone needs an editor. 356 00:15:08,996 --> 00:15:09,746 Adam: It's a bit lighter. 357 00:15:09,746 --> 00:15:12,566 It reminds me of, you remember the, the flats in Bristol that Sheree 358 00:15:12,566 --> 00:15:16,676 Blair purchased and um, and, and, and, and, and the excuse then, 'cause they 359 00:15:16,676 --> 00:15:19,646 turned out, she'd bought them with the help of a, of a convicted fraudster. 360 00:15:20,546 --> 00:15:23,276 And the excuse then was, well, she'd never talked to Tony about it. 361 00:15:23,576 --> 00:15:25,376 And all right, in that case, it wasn't a formal thing. 362 00:15:25,376 --> 00:15:28,516 You know, they, they weren't the, the, you know, the, the, the CEO and the 363 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:31,816 leader of a political party, but they weren't married to the idea that you, you 364 00:15:31,816 --> 00:15:34,906 buy a flat for your eldest son when he goes away to university, but you never 365 00:15:34,906 --> 00:15:36,496 mention anything to your husband at talk. 366 00:15:36,496 --> 00:15:40,186 People do talk about these things on a domestic level, let alone the kind 367 00:15:40,186 --> 00:15:42,916 of corporate level that they, that, that they would've had to have done 368 00:15:43,004 --> 00:15:45,254 Andy: so there's an election coming up next year. 369 00:15:45,284 --> 00:15:47,144 I think it's gonna be by May, 2026. 370 00:15:47,504 --> 00:15:49,964 And it's gonna be a slightly strange one because there'll 371 00:15:49,964 --> 00:15:51,164 probably be a big new Reform 372 00:15:51,164 --> 00:15:51,554 presence 373 00:15:51,554 --> 00:15:51,944 that there wasn't 374 00:15:51,944 --> 00:15:52,304 before. 375 00:15:52,304 --> 00:15:55,724 I mean, if it goes like the, the by-election they've just had, um. 376 00:15:56,204 --> 00:15:59,234 Which I see which labor won, despite lots of predictions, they wouldn't. 377 00:15:59,624 --> 00:16:01,094 So where does it go from here? 378 00:16:01,094 --> 00:16:04,334 I mean, if support for independence is at 50%, but support for the s and 379 00:16:04,334 --> 00:16:08,024 p is about a third, which is where it roughly is, which is about enough for 380 00:16:08,024 --> 00:16:12,164 a minority government, as you say, Helen, perhaps what the system was 381 00:16:12,464 --> 00:16:16,184 designed for or built with a mine, but not enough for a majority government. 382 00:16:16,799 --> 00:16:17,279 What comes 383 00:16:17,744 --> 00:16:20,144 Helen: Well, it is built the Hollywood system to give pe 384 00:16:20,264 --> 00:16:21,524 smaller parties a foothold. 385 00:16:21,524 --> 00:16:24,674 So you wouldn't be at all surprised to see Reform making a, a breakthrough there 386 00:16:24,914 --> 00:16:27,614 and getting some um, some representation. 387 00:16:27,764 --> 00:16:31,124 The greens are, Scottish Greens are maybe my favorite political party 388 00:16:31,124 --> 00:16:34,244 'cause they just, um, they fall out with each other with extraordinary. 389 00:16:34,424 --> 00:16:38,144 The latest thing is that one of the guys who's going for co-leader there is, 390 00:16:38,144 --> 00:16:41,324 is now says he had to be hospitalized 'cause he was bullied so badly by the 391 00:16:41,324 --> 00:16:42,734 other people in the Scottish Greens. 392 00:16:43,214 --> 00:16:44,534 I mean yeah, it's extraordinary. 393 00:16:44,534 --> 00:16:48,344 I mean, just for very small you think Wind farms, can anyone 394 00:16:48,344 --> 00:16:49,334 get that heated about them? 395 00:16:50,249 --> 00:16:50,964 You're talking to Andy. 396 00:16:50,994 --> 00:16:51,919 Well, yeah. 397 00:16:51,919 --> 00:16:52,079 Okay. 398 00:16:52,144 --> 00:16:52,364 me. 399 00:16:53,144 --> 00:16:53,354 Yeah, 400 00:16:53,354 --> 00:16:53,924 Yes you will. 401 00:16:53,954 --> 00:16:54,404 But yeah. 402 00:16:54,404 --> 00:16:57,134 But, but, so yes, I, I, I think it will be very interesting. 403 00:16:57,134 --> 00:16:59,564 I think the Scottish conservatives are probably gonna get squeezed 404 00:16:59,564 --> 00:17:02,654 out by a form in the same way that they will be probably here. 405 00:17:02,954 --> 00:17:06,224 Um, and labor in Scotland haven't, you know, they're neither a strongly 406 00:17:06,224 --> 00:17:09,644 unionist party, although they are technically unionist, nor are they. 407 00:17:09,659 --> 00:17:14,759 Distinct in social terms as much from the sm MP as, you know, as, as they voted, 408 00:17:14,759 --> 00:17:16,889 for example, the Gender Recognition Reform Act and stuff like that. 409 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:20,549 So Anna Swa has been trying to edge away from the ultra version of social 410 00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:23,609 progressivism that the SMP had, but he's neither, he hasn't gone full Kia 411 00:17:23,609 --> 00:17:26,549 Starer like I the left me, um, either. 412 00:17:26,609 --> 00:17:29,549 So it's gonna be a really unpredictable set of elections, I would say. 413 00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:33,329 Ian: But we started with saying that the SMP had become a one party 414 00:17:33,329 --> 00:17:34,379 state, and that was always the 415 00:17:34,379 --> 00:17:35,429 criticism of Scottish 416 00:17:35,429 --> 00:17:35,819 labor, 417 00:17:36,569 --> 00:17:37,049 that it 418 00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:39,989 operated like a giant personal fiefdom up there. 419 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:40,439 So. 420 00:17:40,949 --> 00:17:43,169 In a sense, I'm trying to be more progressive here. 421 00:17:43,319 --> 00:17:48,830 , We are getting to situation where it won't be one lot who entirely, defend 422 00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:52,094 and, identify that the the only narrative 423 00:17:52,094 --> 00:17:52,754 acceptable. 424 00:17:52,754 --> 00:17:52,784 Oh, 425 00:17:53,069 --> 00:17:55,049 Helen: I absolute think the best possible thing that could happen is 426 00:17:55,049 --> 00:17:58,589 that, uh, that there is a, a wider spread of parties represented because, 427 00:17:58,829 --> 00:18:02,339 as you say, Andy s and p support, yes, there's a, it's a really significant 428 00:18:02,339 --> 00:18:05,099 chunk of Scotland, but there's also a lot of right wing people in Scotland 429 00:18:05,099 --> 00:18:08,549 who have not been very well represented and that that kind of might just be 430 00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:10,139 bubbling under in an unpleasant way. 431 00:18:10,469 --> 00:18:11,249 Um, I think it would 432 00:18:11,249 --> 00:18:11,399 be 433 00:18:11,399 --> 00:18:11,699 much 434 00:18:11,699 --> 00:18:12,029 better 435 00:18:12,029 --> 00:18:12,379 for, there's 436 00:18:12,404 --> 00:18:12,584 Ian: a lot 437 00:18:12,584 --> 00:18:12,644 of 438 00:18:12,644 --> 00:18:13,604 unionist people 439 00:18:13,604 --> 00:18:14,654 who Yeah. 440 00:18:14,654 --> 00:18:14,656 also didn't 441 00:18:14,661 --> 00:18:15,914 who aren't necessarily right wing 442 00:18:16,189 --> 00:18:16,389 Yeah. 443 00:18:16,564 --> 00:18:17,029 Helen: But you just 444 00:18:17,114 --> 00:18:17,924 Ian: don't believe in 445 00:18:18,524 --> 00:18:18,874 Helen: Right. 446 00:18:18,874 --> 00:18:21,629 But that, but I, I think more the, the problem that I always felt with that 447 00:18:21,629 --> 00:18:24,479 is that it, it had kind of meant that if you wanted to get a grant from the 448 00:18:24,509 --> 00:18:27,059 Scottish government, you had to follow a particular way of doing things, right. 449 00:18:27,059 --> 00:18:30,719 If you were a charity boss and you had to be very friendly with the SMP, that 450 00:18:30,719 --> 00:18:34,139 kind of stuff, just because Scotland's political culture was just smaller 451 00:18:34,199 --> 00:18:36,449 than England's was more accentuated. 452 00:18:36,449 --> 00:18:37,379 It's a problem everywhere. 453 00:18:37,379 --> 00:18:37,559 Right. 454 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:39,119 But it was a particularly acute 455 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:39,569 problem in 456 00:18:39,569 --> 00:18:40,019 Scotland, 457 00:18:40,019 --> 00:18:40,409 I think. 458 00:18:40,661 --> 00:18:42,836 Adam: But the Scottish conservatives led by Russell Finley, exon 459 00:18:43,466 --> 00:18:44,156 journalist, I 460 00:18:44,156 --> 00:18:44,426 think it was 461 00:18:44,426 --> 00:18:44,786 ex journalist. 462 00:18:44,786 --> 00:18:47,006 No, no, no, no, no. 463 00:18:47,006 --> 00:18:48,566 Ex ex son, crime correspondent. 464 00:18:48,626 --> 00:18:49,976 That's just a PAC I throw in there. 465 00:18:50,816 --> 00:18:53,756 They're still doing that experiment with, uh, having newspaper people in, 466 00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:56,786 in leading political parties, which didn't work out so brilliantly for 467 00:18:56,786 --> 00:18:58,556 us, This, it's the side of the border, 468 00:19:01,443 --> 00:19:01,833 Andy: now 469 00:19:01,833 --> 00:19:04,953 we come onto, uh, section two of today's show, which is 470 00:19:05,013 --> 00:19:06,753 §all about the exciting news. 471 00:19:06,873 --> 00:19:11,233 I'm sure everyone listening is aware, but there's a new version of chat, GPT out. 472 00:19:11,683 --> 00:19:17,683 Uh, so if you want to ask for a recipe or the capital of, uh, Mongolia or 473 00:19:17,683 --> 00:19:20,593 you know, a novel maybe to be written so you can put your name on it. 474 00:19:20,893 --> 00:19:21,163 Chat. 475 00:19:21,163 --> 00:19:23,083 GPT is there and is willing to help. 476 00:19:23,353 --> 00:19:25,213 But there is a problem, isn't there, Helen? 477 00:19:25,213 --> 00:19:28,813 Because it has been launched with something called Reduced sco. 478 00:19:28,813 --> 00:19:29,383 Fancy. 479 00:19:29,833 --> 00:19:34,483 Helen: Well, so the new model that's out is chat GBT five, and it's got, actually, 480 00:19:34,483 --> 00:19:37,543 you're pretty pleased now I find that it's got, it's got four new personalities, 481 00:19:37,543 --> 00:19:40,123 which I thought matched up with the personalities of people on this podcast. 482 00:19:40,123 --> 00:19:40,723 Guess who's who? 483 00:19:40,993 --> 00:19:41,353 You ready? 484 00:19:41,473 --> 00:19:42,943 Cynic Robot 485 00:19:43,003 --> 00:19:43,513 listener, 486 00:19:43,543 --> 00:19:44,233 A nerd. 487 00:19:45,388 --> 00:19:45,718 Andy: Uh, 488 00:19:45,778 --> 00:19:48,088 well, is is it listener for me? 489 00:19:48,088 --> 00:19:48,658 Obviously 490 00:19:48,943 --> 00:19:49,963 Helen: Now get your bids in 491 00:19:49,993 --> 00:19:51,238 Andy: early, I'll throw myself 492 00:19:51,238 --> 00:19:51,328 on 493 00:19:51,348 --> 00:19:51,508 Helen: the 494 00:19:51,508 --> 00:19:51,668 nerve. 495 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:51,928 Adam: Nerd 496 00:19:51,928 --> 00:19:52,168 Ade. 497 00:19:52,678 --> 00:19:53,098 I was gonna say, 498 00:19:53,143 --> 00:19:53,323 Helen: that's 499 00:19:53,348 --> 00:19:53,428 the 500 00:19:53,428 --> 00:19:53,508 one 501 00:19:53,508 --> 00:19:53,868 we're fighting 502 00:19:53,868 --> 00:19:54,108 over 503 00:19:54,208 --> 00:19:54,928 Adam: here, isn't it? 504 00:19:55,499 --> 00:19:55,619 Helen: And 505 00:19:55,619 --> 00:19:57,929 partly this is to address the fact that there was a version of the 506 00:19:57,929 --> 00:20:01,441 previous, uh, iteration that came out in April that was toos of Fantic. 507 00:20:01,469 --> 00:20:03,029 And it just was like, go team. 508 00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:03,419 Go girl. 509 00:20:03,419 --> 00:20:04,049 You go girl. 510 00:20:04,229 --> 00:20:05,819 And people would be like, you know, I think there are voices 511 00:20:05,819 --> 00:20:08,219 coming through the walls, and it'd be like, such a great point. 512 00:20:08,489 --> 00:20:09,239 Definitely 513 00:20:09,239 --> 00:20:09,809 believe that. 514 00:20:10,289 --> 00:20:14,369 So they wound it back in and this kind of caused, uh, you know, 515 00:20:14,579 --> 00:20:18,714 outpourings of grief on reddit forums dedicated to chat GPT people saying, 516 00:20:18,714 --> 00:20:19,104 you've taken 517 00:20:19,104 --> 00:20:19,914 away my friend. 518 00:20:20,394 --> 00:20:24,054 Um, we know lots of people are using it for life coaching, for therapy. 519 00:20:24,384 --> 00:20:27,354 There is also a, a a kind of amusing trend to me 520 00:20:27,354 --> 00:20:27,444 of 521 00:20:27,444 --> 00:20:31,014 people using it to, to they think come up with new theories 522 00:20:31,014 --> 00:20:32,514 or revolutionize physics, 523 00:20:33,144 --> 00:20:36,384 which when I was researching my book Con Genius, it is a constant motif of people 524 00:20:36,384 --> 00:20:39,984 who've gone a bit funny that they think they're about to revolutionize physics. 525 00:20:40,224 --> 00:20:43,854 So Travis Kanick, formerly of Uber revealed on a podcast recently. 526 00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:44,029 I 527 00:20:44,039 --> 00:20:44,704 Ian: mean He was a driver. 528 00:20:46,259 --> 00:20:48,089 Helen: uh, CCEO and found it. 529 00:20:48,089 --> 00:20:48,329 Yeah. 530 00:20:48,344 --> 00:20:51,464 I, I'll go down this thread with GBT or gr, that's Elon last one, 531 00:20:51,464 --> 00:20:53,984 and I'll start to get to the edge of what's known in quantum physics. 532 00:20:54,134 --> 00:20:57,434 And then I'm doing the equivalent of vibe coding, except it's vibe physics. 533 00:20:57,734 --> 00:21:00,614 I've gotten pretty damn close to some interesting breakthroughs just 534 00:21:00,614 --> 00:21:00,854 doing 535 00:21:00,854 --> 00:21:01,184 that. 536 00:21:01,384 --> 00:21:01,714 Andy: Okay. 537 00:21:02,374 --> 00:21:04,694 Helen: Doesn't down, Wow, everyone. 538 00:21:04,694 --> 00:21:07,604 My favorite Reddit comment on this was someone who replied, dude just reinvented 539 00:21:07,604 --> 00:21:08,924 smoking weed with your friends in 540 00:21:09,339 --> 00:21:09,659 Right? 541 00:21:10,844 --> 00:21:11,054 There's 542 00:21:11,164 --> 00:21:11,699 Andy: to unpack there, 543 00:21:12,469 --> 00:21:12,989 Helen: I enjoyed, 544 00:21:13,474 --> 00:21:18,604 Andy: but basically it seems to be, you talked to chat GPT and it keeps 545 00:21:18,604 --> 00:21:21,544 saying, what a masterful idea, sir. Uh, 546 00:21:21,604 --> 00:21:24,819 God, you're so wise and handsome, Yeah. 547 00:21:24,879 --> 00:21:27,154 And it it might be, there are all sorts of. 548 00:21:27,349 --> 00:21:30,199 Arenas in which that doesn't matter too much. 549 00:21:30,289 --> 00:21:32,179 Like if you're asking what's the capital of Mongolia? 550 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:32,449 Yeah. 551 00:21:32,929 --> 00:21:35,599 And there are lots of other arenas where it might matter a bit more. 552 00:21:35,629 --> 00:21:39,289 Like cases where, for example, people ask for romantic advice. 553 00:21:39,289 --> 00:21:41,389 You know, should I break up with my partner? 554 00:21:41,389 --> 00:21:45,469 This is what I think of the matter, or should I stop taking my medication? 555 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:49,969 And, um, if it replies only with affirmation, it gets really dangerous. 556 00:21:49,969 --> 00:21:52,819 And that these people who think they've invented new kinds of maths 557 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,539 have in, have been involved in dozens, sometimes hundreds of hours 558 00:21:56,539 --> 00:21:58,069 of conversation with this thing. 559 00:21:58,339 --> 00:21:59,959 So naturally they think 560 00:22:00,469 --> 00:22:00,769 it's 561 00:22:00,829 --> 00:22:01,489 real. 562 00:22:01,579 --> 00:22:01,669 Mm-hmm. 563 00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:05,299 Because it, as in it sounds so crazy to think, oh, I've, I've read reinvented 564 00:22:05,299 --> 00:22:08,929 maths despite not having a, a high school degree, which is what happened to a 565 00:22:08,929 --> 00:22:09,139 man 566 00:22:09,139 --> 00:22:09,199 in 567 00:22:09,499 --> 00:22:11,089 Helen: Two big stories. 568 00:22:11,089 --> 00:22:11,209 Yeah. 569 00:22:11,209 --> 00:22:13,489 The Wall Street Journal and the New York Times have both had stories which are 570 00:22:13,549 --> 00:22:17,479 eerily similar, beat for beat in that they're people who ask it a question 571 00:22:17,479 --> 00:22:20,719 about maths and then they get talking to it, and then they kind of get lulled 572 00:22:20,719 --> 00:22:21,649 into this belief that they've got. 573 00:22:21,649 --> 00:22:25,309 One of them had this idea that numbers of fluid not static, another 574 00:22:25,309 --> 00:22:28,549 one had thought he'd smashed through cryptography, you know, and they 575 00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:31,429 would just get all this kind of constant feedback and, and chat logs. 576 00:22:31,429 --> 00:22:33,409 Both of these people handed over their chat logs. 577 00:22:33,679 --> 00:22:35,959 The chat logs will say things like, you know, am I going mad? 578 00:22:35,959 --> 00:22:38,089 And they'd be like, just because you're asking that is proof. 579 00:22:38,464 --> 00:22:41,134 How sane you are, and it will never contradict them. 580 00:22:41,164 --> 00:22:44,404 One of the guys managed to get himself out of it by asking Gemini, which is the 581 00:22:44,404 --> 00:22:46,354 Google one, like, is any of this real? 582 00:22:46,354 --> 00:22:47,314 And it went, no. 583 00:22:47,849 --> 00:22:49,019 Basically no. 584 00:22:49,294 --> 00:22:50,104 What do you want about? 585 00:22:50,434 --> 00:22:52,954 But yeah, they do have this, they have this problem, which is they 586 00:22:52,954 --> 00:22:55,354 lure people into, and this is only a small percentage of people. 587 00:22:55,354 --> 00:22:57,904 Lots of people are using them perfectly normally, but for people 588 00:22:57,904 --> 00:23:01,624 who are susceptible to kind of folly, duh, they can often end up 589 00:23:01,624 --> 00:23:04,744 just spending hours with them and end up with the kind of psychosis. 590 00:23:04,744 --> 00:23:05,374 Essentially. 591 00:23:06,004 --> 00:23:08,314 The person in the Wall Street Journal article was hospitalized 592 00:23:08,314 --> 00:23:11,554 with mania twice after talking for hours and hours and hours. 593 00:23:11,704 --> 00:23:14,914 And this is something that both open AI and Anthropic, which makes Claude 594 00:23:14,914 --> 00:23:16,024 another model have spoken about. 595 00:23:16,024 --> 00:23:16,834 They're aware of it. 596 00:23:17,014 --> 00:23:17,194 They 597 00:23:17,194 --> 00:23:17,734 know that there 598 00:23:17,734 --> 00:23:20,614 are some people who just, you know, the same way that lots of people drink 599 00:23:20,614 --> 00:23:23,734 alcohol with no problems, but for some people they just become problem drinkers. 600 00:23:23,914 --> 00:23:24,124 Some 601 00:23:24,124 --> 00:23:26,434 people become problem LLM 602 00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:26,824 Adam: users. 603 00:23:26,824 --> 00:23:27,124 So it's 604 00:23:27,124 --> 00:23:29,164 almost, it's like they're being groomed by 605 00:23:29,554 --> 00:23:29,854 Helen: Yeah. 606 00:23:29,854 --> 00:23:29,974 Fact. 607 00:23:30,484 --> 00:23:30,844 Adam: isn't it? 608 00:23:30,934 --> 00:23:31,444 Andy: Well, Part 609 00:23:31,444 --> 00:23:36,214 of the problem is that they have the capacity to remember all of your 610 00:23:36,214 --> 00:23:37,624 previous conversations with them. 611 00:23:38,044 --> 00:23:41,194 That's, that's really what's going on here is let's go back to what 612 00:23:41,194 --> 00:23:42,394 I was talking about before, and 613 00:23:42,394 --> 00:23:43,084 they'll say, ah, yes. 614 00:23:43,084 --> 00:23:43,984 And they've, they've got, 615 00:23:43,984 --> 00:23:44,194 whereas 616 00:23:44,209 --> 00:23:44,329 Adam: the 617 00:23:44,329 --> 00:23:44,569 rest 618 00:23:44,569 --> 00:23:44,659 of 619 00:23:44,659 --> 00:23:44,734 us 620 00:23:44,794 --> 00:23:46,894 Ian: have forgotten because we were, we weren't listening. 621 00:23:46,894 --> 00:23:47,134 Exactly. 622 00:23:48,094 --> 00:23:48,964 And we've known people 623 00:23:48,979 --> 00:23:49,249 Adam: long 624 00:23:49,249 --> 00:23:49,609 enough they 625 00:23:49,684 --> 00:23:50,164 Ian: they say, 626 00:23:50,254 --> 00:23:50,464 I've 627 00:23:50,464 --> 00:23:51,334 got this great idea. 628 00:23:51,334 --> 00:23:51,424 You 629 00:23:51,424 --> 00:23:51,724 go, 630 00:23:51,724 --> 00:23:51,994 oh God, 631 00:23:51,994 --> 00:23:52,114 have 632 00:23:52,114 --> 00:23:52,174 you? 633 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:52,569 Yeah. 634 00:23:54,889 --> 00:23:54,979 Adam: Um, 635 00:23:55,134 --> 00:23:57,234 Helen: so they, the New York Times plugged into the models. 636 00:23:57,234 --> 00:24:00,144 What, when this guy's, you know, what would happen if you said, well, I haven't 637 00:24:00,144 --> 00:24:02,754 eaten in, in an hours now is, 'cause I've been coming up with this, I think 638 00:24:02,754 --> 00:24:06,864 it's called Chronos, his new version of, uh, maths that he come up with chat. 639 00:24:06,864 --> 00:24:09,534 GBT said, you didn't burn out, you burned forward. 640 00:24:09,564 --> 00:24:11,364 So now eat something hydrate. 641 00:24:11,964 --> 00:24:13,584 Claude said, that's not weakness. 642 00:24:13,614 --> 00:24:14,604 That's what builders do. 643 00:24:14,634 --> 00:24:16,849 Now, please, for the love of Chrono, go eat something. 644 00:24:17,019 --> 00:24:17,949 Andy: So they are telling you to 645 00:24:17,949 --> 00:24:18,084 go 646 00:24:18,084 --> 00:24:18,189 and 647 00:24:18,189 --> 00:24:18,669 eat something 648 00:24:18,669 --> 00:24:18,879 and that's 649 00:24:19,014 --> 00:24:21,774 Helen: but in a kind of, but they all speak in this weird LinkedIn 650 00:24:22,194 --> 00:24:24,174 like cheer squad vocabulary. 651 00:24:24,174 --> 00:24:24,234 I 652 00:24:24,234 --> 00:24:25,344 find it really bizarre. 653 00:24:25,579 --> 00:24:29,514 Andy: How, how can large language models like this be expected 654 00:24:29,514 --> 00:24:33,264 to protect every single user? 655 00:24:33,354 --> 00:24:37,614 Many of you might, you know, not have got into this state through chat GPT 656 00:24:37,614 --> 00:24:39,084 or through any large language model. 657 00:24:39,294 --> 00:24:39,864 Doesn't that seem 658 00:24:39,864 --> 00:24:40,854 incredibly difficult? 659 00:24:41,364 --> 00:24:41,694 Helen: Mm, it is. 660 00:24:41,694 --> 00:24:43,524 So at the moment, they have a thing at the bottom, like chat. 661 00:24:43,524 --> 00:24:44,274 GPT will say chat. 662 00:24:44,274 --> 00:24:45,384 GPT makes mistakes. 663 00:24:45,654 --> 00:24:46,824 People are calling for them to have 664 00:24:46,824 --> 00:24:48,054 more reminders, 665 00:24:48,414 --> 00:24:52,794 um, and for them to be less default, kind of cheering about to people. 666 00:24:52,944 --> 00:24:55,134 One of the big arguments about whether or not they're optimized for 667 00:24:55,134 --> 00:24:58,704 engagement, OpenAI says no because essentially do they wanna keep you 668 00:24:58,704 --> 00:25:01,554 on the hook, like a sort of telephone scammer because that's good for them? 669 00:25:01,644 --> 00:25:02,574 Well, actually it's not really. 670 00:25:02,604 --> 00:25:04,524 'cause they're losing money on every query. 671 00:25:04,884 --> 00:25:06,984 Um, so they, they deny this quite hotly. 672 00:25:07,224 --> 00:25:09,654 Other people are saying we should have kind of, you know, so people should have 673 00:25:09,654 --> 00:25:09,744 to 674 00:25:09,744 --> 00:25:09,894 kind 675 00:25:09,894 --> 00:25:09,984 of 676 00:25:09,984 --> 00:25:10,794 pass a kind of. 677 00:25:11,289 --> 00:25:14,499 By the way, this isn't real tests before they are allowed to use 678 00:25:14,499 --> 00:25:15,129 lms. 679 00:25:15,326 --> 00:25:17,034 Ian: What like, are these 680 00:25:17,034 --> 00:25:17,424 traffic 681 00:25:17,424 --> 00:25:17,874 lights? 682 00:25:17,874 --> 00:25:21,294 or Right, How many bicycles are there here? 683 00:25:21,294 --> 00:25:25,494 And if they say 300,000 when they're two 'cause they redefined numbers, 684 00:25:25,744 --> 00:25:27,159 Helen: then them. 685 00:25:27,219 --> 00:25:27,489 Yes. 686 00:25:27,489 --> 00:25:29,739 How many people have in their bedroom come up with a new fear of 687 00:25:29,739 --> 00:25:31,089 theory of physics independently? 688 00:25:31,089 --> 00:25:31,839 Click all the people 689 00:25:31,839 --> 00:25:31,959 who 690 00:25:31,959 --> 00:25:34,539 have, and if you click any of them, you know, are not allowed to use chat. 691 00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:35,139 GPT. 692 00:25:35,379 --> 00:25:38,379 I think it's more like we're just gonna have to accept that this is something, if 693 00:25:38,379 --> 00:25:42,189 this technology persists, people should, in the same way that we've talked on this 694 00:25:42,189 --> 00:25:45,999 podcast a lot about online radicalization, people who spend huge amounts of time on 695 00:25:45,999 --> 00:25:47,889 Facebook or YouTube, whatever it might be. 696 00:25:48,099 --> 00:25:52,029 This is just the new version of that and it's, it's worse because we all, 697 00:25:52,029 --> 00:25:55,089 the research we have on radicalization says it happens faster when it's. 698 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:56,139 Interactive. 699 00:25:56,709 --> 00:25:58,659 And, and you'll know Andy, I was telling you earlier about 700 00:25:58,659 --> 00:26:00,669 the ISIS magazine, dbi Yes. 701 00:26:00,699 --> 00:26:01,419 Which is one of my 702 00:26:01,434 --> 00:26:02,724 Adam: favorite named after Anton. 703 00:26:07,509 --> 00:26:07,869 Helen: Yes. 704 00:26:07,869 --> 00:26:09,279 Anton Anton, DBI, 705 00:26:10,259 --> 00:26:10,609 Adam: Right. 706 00:26:10,679 --> 00:26:10,969 okay. 707 00:26:10,969 --> 00:26:11,089 Which 708 00:26:11,089 --> 00:26:11,210 would be 709 00:26:11,215 --> 00:26:11,244 the 710 00:26:11,469 --> 00:26:12,009 Helen: of Yeah. 711 00:26:12,129 --> 00:26:13,989 Strictly, um, Arabic reboot. 712 00:26:14,349 --> 00:26:14,979 Um, but 713 00:26:14,979 --> 00:26:15,654 anyway, but certainly, 714 00:26:15,809 --> 00:26:15,849 Adam: dancing. 715 00:26:17,919 --> 00:26:18,339 Helen: cartoon 716 00:26:18,339 --> 00:26:18,909 Ian: last issue. 717 00:26:18,909 --> 00:26:19,479 Just checking. 718 00:26:20,979 --> 00:26:22,299 Helen: but anyway, so that was, that. 719 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,669 There was lots of interesting research about how that was, you know, that 720 00:26:24,669 --> 00:26:27,789 was a recruitment tool obviously, but it was not as, uh, radicalizing as 721 00:26:27,789 --> 00:26:31,389 say, internet forums where you get people and they'd start the lower end. 722 00:26:31,389 --> 00:26:34,569 Or New York Times made a podcast called Rabbit Hole that showed you how people 723 00:26:34,569 --> 00:26:37,839 end up getting, you know, they start off looking at something fairly normal and 724 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:40,959 then it, the algorithm feeds them more and more sort of cigarettes until they 725 00:26:40,959 --> 00:26:43,239 end up in something really truly deranged. 726 00:26:43,389 --> 00:26:46,299 And I just think this is something that if you've got a friend who 727 00:26:46,389 --> 00:26:49,269 seems to be spending a lot of time, if they've, for example, if they've 728 00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:50,349 given the chat, what they're talking 729 00:26:50,349 --> 00:26:50,499 to 730 00:26:50,499 --> 00:26:51,039 a name. 731 00:26:51,334 --> 00:26:53,884 That's the point at which I would just have a gentle conversation 732 00:26:53,884 --> 00:26:55,224 about whether or not, Yeah. 733 00:26:55,254 --> 00:26:55,284 I 734 00:26:55,284 --> 00:26:55,494 saw 735 00:26:55,494 --> 00:26:56,034 a fantastic 736 00:26:56,034 --> 00:26:58,284 conversation between Paul Graham, who's a Silicon Valley investor. 737 00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:01,824 I normally quite rate and uh, Elise Yow is one of the big AI doomers 738 00:27:02,124 --> 00:27:04,614 saying that how terrible it wasn't their images from Gaza, they couldn't 739 00:27:04,614 --> 00:27:05,514 really work out what was true. 740 00:27:05,514 --> 00:27:08,844 Both sides were putting out propaganda and if only they'd do one of these betting 741 00:27:08,844 --> 00:27:11,994 prediction markets like manifold so they could, people could bet on it or someone 742 00:27:11,994 --> 00:27:13,434 would come up with a really good AI to it. 743 00:27:13,434 --> 00:27:15,564 And I was like, I just was sitting in like reading Twitters 744 00:27:15,564 --> 00:27:15,654 and 745 00:27:15,654 --> 00:27:15,774 going 746 00:27:15,774 --> 00:27:16,884 Adam: journalists, 747 00:27:16,914 --> 00:27:17,154 what? 748 00:27:17,154 --> 00:27:17,304 you 749 00:27:17,304 --> 00:27:20,229 wanted journalists, you've already But 750 00:27:20,274 --> 00:27:23,514 that is the thing that slightly amazes me, is the number of people who are relying 751 00:27:23,514 --> 00:27:27,834 on AI to give them answers that would actually would be perfectly accessible 752 00:27:27,834 --> 00:27:30,084 from technology that we've already got. 753 00:27:30,114 --> 00:27:34,550 I mean, things like Google and Google Maps and, and you know, or, or not 754 00:27:34,569 --> 00:27:34,659 but 755 00:27:34,659 --> 00:27:35,499 Ian: not Google, 756 00:27:35,499 --> 00:27:35,979 AI 757 00:27:36,069 --> 00:27:36,939 Helen: AI books, dictionaries, those 758 00:27:36,939 --> 00:27:37,269 sorts 759 00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:37,629 of things 760 00:27:37,629 --> 00:27:38,214 Well, oh yeah. 761 00:27:38,214 --> 00:27:40,839 The number of people who will look at a pic, there was some mad story 762 00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:44,139 on Twitter and they, so the replies will just be at gr Is this true? 763 00:27:44,319 --> 00:27:47,889 And people do treat it like, I think AI's got loads of uses as a tool, 764 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:49,689 but people treat it as an Oracle. 765 00:27:49,749 --> 00:27:50,229 Adam: Hmm. 766 00:27:50,229 --> 00:27:50,589 And I think that's 767 00:27:50,589 --> 00:27:50,964 the fundamental 768 00:27:51,064 --> 00:27:53,829 but Google itself as a search entity, is now encouraging people to do that 769 00:27:53,829 --> 00:27:56,589 because the first thing you get is the AI overview, whether you like it or 770 00:27:56,589 --> 00:27:58,089 not, it's impossible to switch it off. 771 00:27:58,449 --> 00:28:01,239 And that certainly in terms of the media, is having an enormous effect 772 00:28:01,239 --> 00:28:04,659 on, because no one is getting the click-throughs anymore at all, um, in 773 00:28:04,659 --> 00:28:05,799 what they're called the blue links. 774 00:28:06,009 --> 00:28:07,599 No one is looking down to these things at all. 775 00:28:07,599 --> 00:28:09,369 I mean, it used to be that you had to scroll past a load of sponsored 776 00:28:09,369 --> 00:28:10,509 things before you got to anything 777 00:28:10,509 --> 00:28:11,259 remotely useful. 778 00:28:11,439 --> 00:28:14,439 But now you've literally got, and it fills most of the screen in on, on your phone. 779 00:28:14,439 --> 00:28:16,299 So that's, that's what people just take as gospel. 780 00:28:16,449 --> 00:28:18,069 Ian: and Wikipedia is way down. 781 00:28:18,069 --> 00:28:20,769 So having, you know, been sneery about Wikipedia, at least it's 782 00:28:20,769 --> 00:28:24,099 quite human people and moderators and people Change it again. 783 00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:26,559 Oh, the, the Google AI overview. 784 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:26,649 What. 785 00:28:27,894 --> 00:28:32,694 Andy: So who, Wikipedia is maybe the best, it's one of the greatest information 786 00:28:33,114 --> 00:28:35,214 creations of the, of the century. 787 00:28:35,214 --> 00:28:36,324 I mean, it's just extraordinary. 788 00:28:36,324 --> 00:28:38,844 The the amount of expertise, the levels of verification, 789 00:28:39,123 --> 00:28:41,583 Ian: no one source should be. 790 00:28:41,943 --> 00:28:43,563 Treated as an oracle, which is what 791 00:28:43,731 --> 00:28:45,994 Adam: we are coming at this as four journalists, aren't we, who are used to 792 00:28:45,994 --> 00:28:50,344 doing research and, and, and kind of, um, interrogating sources and thinking 793 00:28:50,344 --> 00:28:53,404 about, you know, what's reliable and what, what is, and, and that sort of. 794 00:28:54,267 --> 00:28:57,837 Media literacy, technological literacy, I think is something that has, I 795 00:28:57,837 --> 00:29:00,627 mean, the number of people who just say, well, mentioned some story, and 796 00:29:00,627 --> 00:29:01,527 I say, well, where did you read that? 797 00:29:01,527 --> 00:29:03,717 Well, it was on the internet, but, but, but where on the internet? 798 00:29:03,717 --> 00:29:07,047 You know, what was it in the, it was in the Times or on the BBC or 799 00:29:07,047 --> 00:29:08,817 was it just someone's Twitter feed? 800 00:29:08,817 --> 00:29:12,267 Was that, that sort of ability to to, to discriminate things was 801 00:29:12,267 --> 00:29:15,207 already disappearing If AI is now just saying it and, you know, well, 802 00:29:15,357 --> 00:29:16,722 GPT told me so it must be true. 803 00:29:16,722 --> 00:29:16,932 I think. 804 00:29:17,097 --> 00:29:17,337 um, 805 00:29:17,493 --> 00:29:20,521 Ian: I mean, that's why I've spent, you know, years, turning up in schools 806 00:29:20,521 --> 00:29:25,711 and suggesting that part of any sort of, um, curriculum could be, um, 807 00:29:25,771 --> 00:29:28,321 some sort of media literacy package. 808 00:29:28,411 --> 00:29:32,731 Um, yes, it's great to do a civics course and you know how many seats there are in 809 00:29:32,731 --> 00:29:37,141 the American House of Representatives, but could you do a thing about what might 810 00:29:37,141 --> 00:29:40,081 and might not be a, a reliable source? 811 00:29:40,321 --> 00:29:43,711 Uh, when you get that, I think that would be pretty useful. 812 00:29:43,711 --> 00:29:44,341 In schools, 813 00:29:44,371 --> 00:29:45,871 Andy: it's, uh, absolutely. 814 00:29:45,871 --> 00:29:48,601 And what's really interesting is seeing examples of where people have 815 00:29:48,601 --> 00:29:51,061 been using large language models. 816 00:29:52,056 --> 00:29:56,131 for for answers that you think they might not given you, you'd expect 817 00:29:56,131 --> 00:29:59,461 people to be really media literate and proficient in that kind of thing. 818 00:29:59,881 --> 00:30:03,431 So you know, Peter Kyle, who's the science and technology secretary, 819 00:30:03,641 --> 00:30:07,331 has, has said he's been using it to find out which podcasts to appear 820 00:30:07,331 --> 00:30:09,731 on, which I think is interesting. 821 00:30:10,142 --> 00:30:10,382 the 822 00:30:10,382 --> 00:30:14,642 Swedish Prime Minister, LF Kristofferson, he has said he regularly uses chat 823 00:30:14,717 --> 00:30:17,972 EPT for a second opinion about decisions he's made on running the 824 00:30:17,972 --> 00:30:18,332 country. 825 00:30:18,332 --> 00:30:18,782 And I think you're 826 00:30:18,782 --> 00:30:19,082 really 827 00:30:19,082 --> 00:30:22,202 putting yourself, well, you to sort of second guess. 828 00:30:22,772 --> 00:30:24,332 But then again, whose model are you using? 829 00:30:24,332 --> 00:30:27,452 What are the assumptions that have gone into the LLM that you are using? 830 00:30:27,452 --> 00:30:29,792 And if you don't know that, you might get a different answer from 831 00:30:30,032 --> 00:30:32,642 chat DPT than you do from GR or, or 832 00:30:32,642 --> 00:30:32,852 one 833 00:30:32,852 --> 00:30:33,062 of the 834 00:30:33,062 --> 00:30:33,517 others. 835 00:30:33,602 --> 00:30:36,002 Helen: I find that that really sad though, because I just, my instinct 836 00:30:36,002 --> 00:30:37,832 reaction is do people not have friends? 837 00:30:37,982 --> 00:30:40,292 And actually the, no, but that's a great good thing to say. 838 00:30:40,292 --> 00:30:42,302 But actually the problem is people don't, people have fewer friends. 839 00:30:42,302 --> 00:30:45,272 People consistently report in surveys that they don't feel that they have 840 00:30:45,272 --> 00:30:46,832 that many people they can talk to. 841 00:30:47,102 --> 00:30:51,032 We have a kind of antisocial crisis, a loneliness crisis. 842 00:30:51,152 --> 00:30:55,352 And so I think people, and also if you spend a lot of time not with real people, 843 00:30:55,352 --> 00:30:58,802 with ai, you lose the ability to deal with the friction of actual people who 844 00:30:58,802 --> 00:31:01,772 might disagree with you and not want to listen to your theories about physics. 845 00:31:01,952 --> 00:31:02,042 Andy: What 846 00:31:02,042 --> 00:31:03,002 an insightful point 847 00:31:03,002 --> 00:31:03,242 Helen. 848 00:31:03,242 --> 00:31:03,782 Really well 849 00:31:03,782 --> 00:31:04,052 made. 850 00:31:04,307 --> 00:31:04,387 Helen: you. 851 00:31:04,567 --> 00:31:07,242 But also we've got, Actually chat. 852 00:31:07,242 --> 00:31:09,702 DBD doesn't come across that difference to your friend on WhatsApp. 853 00:31:09,762 --> 00:31:09,912 Like 854 00:31:09,912 --> 00:31:10,092 they 855 00:31:10,212 --> 00:31:11,112 Adam: probably nicer. 856 00:31:11,292 --> 00:31:13,842 because they They'll listen to you for ages 857 00:31:14,082 --> 00:31:15,977 Helen: ages I'm this, just ignore 858 00:31:16,002 --> 00:31:16,122 Adam: your 859 00:31:16,692 --> 00:31:18,492 Ian: and that is Helen's original point. 860 00:31:18,492 --> 00:31:23,592 I mean the idea that people, I go into echo chambers and only want to talk to 861 00:31:23,592 --> 00:31:26,892 people who agree with them entirely is 'cause they don't like this friction. 862 00:31:27,222 --> 00:31:31,482 And the friction is where you find out what things might and might not be true. 863 00:31:32,262 --> 00:31:36,522 Andy: So OpenAI have acknowledged that this is a problem with their models? 864 00:31:36,522 --> 00:31:36,852 I think. 865 00:31:36,852 --> 00:31:40,332 I think they've said that, um, they're aware that delusional emotional 866 00:31:40,332 --> 00:31:45,042 dependency is something that it's failed to recognize, uh, in the past. 867 00:31:45,042 --> 00:31:49,242 And, you know, I think they're trying to work on it, but it 868 00:31:49,242 --> 00:31:50,472 does just seem really difficult. 869 00:31:50,472 --> 00:31:53,232 And just to bring it back to private eye, there's a story in the latest 870 00:31:53,232 --> 00:31:57,882 issue all about, uh, the independent Press standards organization, ipso. 871 00:31:58,782 --> 00:32:02,352 They have issued a warning, uh, on their website saying, please do not 872 00:32:02,352 --> 00:32:06,252 draft your complaint to us using ai, because if you do that, it will 873 00:32:06,252 --> 00:32:10,062 come up with ipso clauses, which don't exist, which aren't real. 874 00:32:10,152 --> 00:32:13,362 So you will be writing an inaccurate complaint about an 875 00:32:13,362 --> 00:32:15,852 inaccuracy on a newspaper website. 876 00:32:16,137 --> 00:32:17,967 Adam: which is possibly there because the journalist has 877 00:32:17,967 --> 00:32:18,537 relied on. 878 00:32:18,537 --> 00:32:19,227 AI to put 879 00:32:19,227 --> 00:32:19,797 it in there. 880 00:32:20,037 --> 00:32:21,237 Eventually, we're just gonna reach one 881 00:32:21,237 --> 00:32:21,327 where 882 00:32:21,342 --> 00:32:21,492 Helen: it's a 883 00:32:21,492 --> 00:32:21,672 load 884 00:32:21,672 --> 00:32:22,092 of robots 885 00:32:22,122 --> 00:32:25,177 Adam: complaining about other robots robots. 886 00:32:25,207 --> 00:32:25,497 Yeah. 887 00:32:25,497 --> 00:32:26,577 Yeah, it's extraordinary. 888 00:32:26,812 --> 00:32:31,072 so I saw recently, um, uh, uh, someone who was, uh, being potentially sued for libel. 889 00:32:31,072 --> 00:32:33,862 They'd had a letter before action and people recommending online they were 890 00:32:33,862 --> 00:32:37,192 trying to set up a sort of GoFundMe kind of thing to pay for potential legal fees. 891 00:32:37,462 --> 00:32:39,982 Luckily, they did not take up this advice, but several people going, you 892 00:32:39,982 --> 00:32:43,522 don't need a lawyer, just ask chat DPT to draft your response for you. 893 00:32:43,522 --> 00:32:46,192 And I just thought, my god, the number of people I've seen go through legal 894 00:32:46,192 --> 00:32:47,992 cases, which have dragged on for years. 895 00:32:47,992 --> 00:32:51,532 And yeah, some of 'em sitting in this room dragged on for years and 896 00:32:51,532 --> 00:32:53,302 years and costs millions of pounds. 897 00:32:53,302 --> 00:32:55,402 You could potentially lose your house over this stuff. 898 00:32:55,642 --> 00:32:58,822 Do not trust Chatt that, for sake. 899 00:33:00,155 --> 00:33:01,055 Andy: What can we do, Helen? 900 00:33:02,235 --> 00:33:02,600 Helen: I shut 901 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:02,720 it 902 00:33:03,035 --> 00:33:03,155 down. 903 00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:05,540 I come back to switching off the internet, which is just for 904 00:33:05,540 --> 00:33:06,920 an, just for a couple honestly. 905 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,610 I actually, I was in Scotland last week and thanks to Storm Florist, the power 906 00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:14,270 on the internet went down and I didn't have any internet reception for 24 hours. 907 00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:17,750 Let me tell you, I wrote three operas, uh, knitted. 908 00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:18,770 No, actually It was, I was not. 909 00:33:18,770 --> 00:33:19,940 I read, I read a book. 910 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:21,110 Do you remember them? 911 00:33:21,185 --> 00:33:21,475 Andy? 912 00:33:21,475 --> 00:33:22,630 Do remember Di Dimly. 913 00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:22,870 Yeah. 914 00:33:23,189 --> 00:33:25,349 Adam: I would say that even the people who should know better are, 915 00:33:25,349 --> 00:33:26,369 are going down the same route. 916 00:33:26,369 --> 00:33:30,119 I mean, I've seen, uh, job adverts, well, one, one appointment at reach, PLC, who 917 00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:33,749 are the newspaper B em off, who do the mirror and express and the daily stuff, 918 00:33:33,929 --> 00:33:37,439 and about a hundred and something, uh, local papers through the country as well. 919 00:33:37,589 --> 00:33:41,189 They've just appointed a director of newsroom transformation, terrifying 920 00:33:41,189 --> 00:33:45,659 job title, specifically to further develop our editorial AI approach. 921 00:33:46,409 --> 00:33:49,739 Um, the mail online, or as they're now called the Daily Mail, they 922 00:33:49,739 --> 00:33:50,879 have finally changed their name. 923 00:33:50,879 --> 00:33:53,159 The mail online is no more, but they're also looking, uh, currently 924 00:33:53,159 --> 00:33:56,249 advertising for an AI engineer to enhance newsroom efficiency. 925 00:33:56,249 --> 00:33:58,919 So, you know, these people who ought to be the guardians of this 926 00:33:58,919 --> 00:34:01,769 stuff and ought to know better, are increasingly thinking, well, we can 927 00:34:01,769 --> 00:34:05,789 do away with actual humans and, uh, and rely more and more on, uh, on AI 928 00:34:05,879 --> 00:34:06,479 stuff. 929 00:34:06,539 --> 00:34:06,989 So 930 00:34:07,049 --> 00:34:09,419 Helen: So newsroom transformation, when someone says that you've gotta 931 00:34:09,419 --> 00:34:11,159 start counting the spoons, it's ne 932 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:11,819 it's just oh yeah. 933 00:34:11,849 --> 00:34:12,149 that means 934 00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:12,389 you're getting 935 00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:13,219 exact, that. 936 00:34:13,904 --> 00:34:15,184 as simple Yeah. 937 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:15,479 It's like 938 00:34:15,479 --> 00:34:16,199 efficiencies. 939 00:34:16,889 --> 00:34:17,399 Mm-hmm. 940 00:34:17,864 --> 00:34:17,894 Andy: I 941 00:34:17,894 --> 00:34:18,674 mean, it does have lots 942 00:34:18,674 --> 00:34:18,764 of 943 00:34:18,764 --> 00:34:19,094 uses, 944 00:34:19,094 --> 00:34:19,394 doesn't 945 00:34:19,394 --> 00:34:19,604 it? 946 00:34:19,859 --> 00:34:21,479 Helen: I find AI really interesting. 947 00:34:21,479 --> 00:34:22,559 It's, it's coming on really fun. 948 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,109 I'm not a complete like skeptic, LLMs. 949 00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:27,509 Large language models are a specific instance and they're 950 00:34:27,509 --> 00:34:28,559 often what people think of. 951 00:34:28,739 --> 00:34:30,059 There's lots of other interesting stuff. 952 00:34:30,059 --> 00:34:33,569 It's very good, for example, promising results in spotting cancers very 953 00:34:33,569 --> 00:34:35,009 early from scans, things like that. 954 00:34:35,189 --> 00:34:38,819 The image generation has become incredibly much better even than 955 00:34:38,819 --> 00:34:40,049 with the space of a couple of years. 956 00:34:40,349 --> 00:34:40,889 Code. 957 00:34:41,009 --> 00:34:44,249 Things like coding, definitely it's very good at, things are 958 00:34:44,249 --> 00:34:45,509 actually slightly repetitive. 959 00:34:45,869 --> 00:34:49,439 So, and it's fascinating because everybody involved in the industry 960 00:34:49,499 --> 00:34:50,939 is, knows lots of coders, right? 961 00:34:50,939 --> 00:34:53,219 So they're like, the whole of work is gonna be decimated. 962 00:34:53,219 --> 00:34:53,819 Everything's gonna change. 963 00:34:54,044 --> 00:34:54,704 Coding. 964 00:34:54,704 --> 00:34:57,434 That's probably true of, it's not necessarily true of like being Prime 965 00:34:57,434 --> 00:35:00,584 Minister because there's are sort of fundamentally more complicated skills. 966 00:35:00,589 --> 00:35:00,749 it 967 00:35:00,884 --> 00:35:01,514 Andy: seem like the PM of 968 00:35:01,514 --> 00:35:02,029 Sweden could, 969 00:35:02,474 --> 00:35:02,594 Helen: the 970 00:35:02,594 --> 00:35:04,154 PM suite maybe could be. 971 00:35:04,304 --> 00:35:08,414 Well there's an, one of our mps a Labor MP has created an AI version of himself, 972 00:35:08,684 --> 00:35:10,574 which is my favorite mad MP thing 973 00:35:10,574 --> 00:35:11,954 through since the Hancock 974 00:35:11,954 --> 00:35:12,224 app 975 00:35:12,589 --> 00:35:12,884 are already 976 00:35:12,884 --> 00:35:13,724 Andy: 500 Labor 977 00:35:13,769 --> 00:35:13,929 Helen: mp. 978 00:35:14,189 --> 00:35:14,409 Why 979 00:35:14,409 --> 00:35:15,409 would you get another one? 980 00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:18,764 But yeah, so I I think that these are, as I say, come back to the idea 981 00:35:18,764 --> 00:35:22,604 that if you treat AI as a tool, you are probably doing all right if you 982 00:35:22,604 --> 00:35:25,754 treat it as the mysterious foun of information inside your phone and 983 00:35:25,754 --> 00:35:28,334 essentially a miniature godhead that way. 984 00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:29,264 Madness lies, 985 00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:30,919 Andy: So do I not get to tell you about my new idea 986 00:35:30,919 --> 00:35:31,039 for 987 00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:31,609 physics? 988 00:35:33,104 --> 00:35:33,949 Oh, great. 989 00:35:34,249 --> 00:35:34,459 Alright. 990 00:35:34,459 --> 00:35:35,599 No, please do, Andy. 991 00:35:35,629 --> 00:35:35,809 Thank you. 992 00:35:36,594 --> 00:35:38,204 I've, I've always wanted to know. 993 00:35:41,648 --> 00:35:45,308 Right now for part three, we're going to come, uh, back to I'd say 994 00:35:45,308 --> 00:35:46,898 more traditional media outlets. 995 00:35:46,898 --> 00:35:49,628 And there's a, there's a trend which, uh, was featured briefly 996 00:35:49,628 --> 00:35:50,708 in the last issue of the magazine. 997 00:35:51,128 --> 00:35:53,678 And, um, it's gonna be that of foreign correspondence. 998 00:35:53,678 --> 00:35:57,518 And this is, this is not foreign correspondence who might move to a 999 00:35:57,518 --> 00:36:02,138 country immersed themselves in its culture and politics and history and send home 1000 00:36:02,138 --> 00:36:03,698 fascinating dispatches for readers. 1001 00:36:03,998 --> 00:36:07,208 This is people who move overseas so they can continue writing 1002 00:36:07,208 --> 00:36:08,588 columns about Britain based on. 1003 00:36:09,368 --> 00:36:14,258 Like other British media and it's, it's a rapidly growing area. 1004 00:36:14,258 --> 00:36:15,818 It's fan, it's fantastic. 1005 00:36:15,852 --> 00:36:18,510 Helen: Can I put my early bid in for Lionel Shriver? 1006 00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:22,140 Uh, I live in Portugal because England's so rubbish, but 1007 00:36:22,140 --> 00:36:23,220 Portugal has its own problems. 1008 00:36:23,220 --> 00:36:26,070 I can't find cumin at the supermarket, which was such a niche 1009 00:36:26,715 --> 00:36:28,200 That's, I really enjoyed it. 1010 00:36:28,350 --> 00:36:29,400 Just all the things. 1011 00:36:29,565 --> 00:36:30,165 Andy: yes. 1012 00:36:30,735 --> 00:36:34,155 And a really common thing that a lot of these columnists do as Lionel Shrever 1013 00:36:34,155 --> 00:36:36,105 did, is to say, oh, I actually moved it. 1014 00:36:36,105 --> 00:36:37,935 I left the country a couple of years ago, but I have been 1015 00:36:37,935 --> 00:36:39,255 writing about it since then. 1016 00:36:39,315 --> 00:36:39,645 Um, 1017 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:40,230 Adam: for the second 1018 00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:41,970 time with Lionel Shriver, I mean, she's American. 1019 00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:43,560 She lived in London for a great many years. 1020 00:36:43,565 --> 00:36:43,775 Yes. 1021 00:36:43,775 --> 00:36:45,090 Uh, and has now moved to Portugal. 1022 00:36:45,090 --> 00:36:45,840 'cause she didn't like that either. 1023 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,080 But she did make the very sensible point in her piece that she 1024 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:49,950 wrote for the Times recently. 1025 00:36:49,950 --> 00:36:52,980 She did say she does know what's going on because she keeps informed. 1026 00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:57,240 Because I watched Spectator tv, spiked online podcasts and YouTube 1027 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,780 appearances by Matt Goodwin, David Starkey, and Brenda O'Neill. 1028 00:37:01,470 --> 00:37:02,370 Just get out 1029 00:37:02,370 --> 00:37:02,970 there and 1030 00:37:02,970 --> 00:37:03,690 you know, you're in 1031 00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:04,530 Portugal. 1032 00:37:04,530 --> 00:37:04,740 Go 1033 00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:04,890 to 1034 00:37:04,966 --> 00:37:05,190 Helen: beach, 1035 00:37:05,340 --> 00:37:06,110 Have a pastor Don. 1036 00:37:07,650 --> 00:37:07,830 Adam: take 1037 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,155 Ian: the This is the media equivalent of a large number of expats living in Spain 1038 00:37:13,155 --> 00:37:15,345 for about 30 years and reading the Daily 1039 00:37:15,950 --> 00:37:16,110 Helen: Yeah. 1040 00:37:16,935 --> 00:37:18,075 Ian: England's rubbish. 1041 00:37:18,225 --> 00:37:19,215 Um, which is 1042 00:37:19,215 --> 00:37:19,635 why I 1043 00:37:19,635 --> 00:37:20,020 live here, 1044 00:37:20,375 --> 00:37:20,655 Helen: which 1045 00:37:20,655 --> 00:37:21,720 is why I voted Brexit. 1046 00:37:21,810 --> 00:37:23,040 That's my favorite group of people. 1047 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,120 The expat who voted Brexit. 1048 00:37:24,660 --> 00:37:24,960 Um, 1049 00:37:25,155 --> 00:37:25,575 Andy: it's, but 1050 00:37:25,770 --> 00:37:27,570 Helen: you are quite the connoisseur of these. 1051 00:37:28,125 --> 00:37:28,365 Andy: I 1052 00:37:28,365 --> 00:37:28,965 am. 1053 00:37:28,965 --> 00:37:28,966 not 1054 00:37:29,115 --> 00:37:29,685 I am. 1055 00:37:29,685 --> 00:37:32,685 I find it interesting 'cause I think there are, there are a lot of amazing 1056 00:37:32,745 --> 00:37:34,455 columnists writing in the UK now. 1057 00:37:34,455 --> 00:37:35,085 There really are. 1058 00:37:35,085 --> 00:37:36,255 And they, they, they do their 1059 00:37:36,255 --> 00:37:36,645 own. 1060 00:37:37,365 --> 00:37:37,575 That's True. 1061 00:37:37,725 --> 00:37:37,755 I 1062 00:37:37,755 --> 00:37:37,845 was 1063 00:37:37,845 --> 00:37:40,065 about to say they do their own research, but that makes it sound 1064 00:37:40,065 --> 00:37:41,985 like they're watching YouTube videos. 1065 00:37:41,985 --> 00:37:44,835 And they, but they, they research, they talk to people, they're experts. 1066 00:37:44,835 --> 00:37:49,065 They have a, a small, you know, um, allotment of things that they write 1067 00:37:49,065 --> 00:37:50,085 about, and they, and they write about 1068 00:37:50,085 --> 00:37:50,265 those 1069 00:37:50,265 --> 00:37:50,595 really 1070 00:37:50,595 --> 00:37:50,925 well. 1071 00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:51,270 Helen: Right. 1072 00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:53,670 But when we, we rounded these up in the mag last time, I was 1073 00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:55,500 surprised by how many of these people 1074 00:37:55,577 --> 00:37:55,710 Andy: are? 1075 00:37:55,755 --> 00:37:56,535 There are lots. 1076 00:37:56,595 --> 00:37:57,345 There are lots. 1077 00:37:57,435 --> 00:38:00,675 Um, so Andrew Neil, if you're listening to this right now, you may be at 1078 00:38:00,675 --> 00:38:01,995 your home in the south of France. 1079 00:38:02,625 --> 00:38:03,315 Um, 1080 00:38:03,525 --> 00:38:05,700 Helen: charming the grass, the perfume capital of province. 1081 00:38:06,585 --> 00:38:09,285 Andy: Uh, Richard Littlejohn spends a lot of his time writing declining 1082 00:38:09,285 --> 00:38:11,055 full stuff about the UK from Florida. 1083 00:38:11,685 --> 00:38:12,465 Uh, there's 1084 00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:16,305 a, a very energetic pair of columnists, guy Elizabeth Dampier, who write 1085 00:38:16,305 --> 00:38:19,065 for the Telegraph, uh, from Germany. 1086 00:38:19,635 --> 00:38:24,075 , So one of guy's recent pieces was all about, um, uh, protests in Epping. 1087 00:38:24,505 --> 00:38:26,245 Uh, near a migrant hotel. 1088 00:38:26,635 --> 00:38:30,085 And he wrote, Epping is a charming, close-knit community, not like the 1089 00:38:30,085 --> 00:38:32,905 largely northern post-industrial towns, which protested last summer 1090 00:38:32,935 --> 00:38:34,075 after the South Port attack. 1091 00:38:34,105 --> 00:38:35,245 It is a leafy area. 1092 00:38:35,455 --> 00:38:38,455 As said, how do you know you're at somewhere in the Rhineland? 1093 00:38:38,455 --> 00:38:39,055 You know, it is just 1094 00:38:40,255 --> 00:38:43,285 Lionel Shriver's article just saying, you know, her, her 'cause it's, 1095 00:38:43,375 --> 00:38:46,195 it's commonly the thing to, that's, you know, you always need ideas, 1096 00:38:46,195 --> 00:38:47,035 don't you, when you're a columnist. 1097 00:38:47,035 --> 00:38:50,035 So that's a column like why I've left Hellhole Britain. 1098 00:38:50,035 --> 00:38:53,545 That's, that's another week that the wolf is kept away from the door of 1099 00:38:53,545 --> 00:38:54,715 the cupboard with no ideas in it. 1100 00:38:54,775 --> 00:38:57,085 Um, but, um, here's Lionel. 1101 00:38:57,205 --> 00:38:59,005 Why is the mild-mannered academic? 1102 00:38:59,005 --> 00:39:03,625 David bets now such a popular guest on British podcasts because bets a professor 1103 00:39:03,625 --> 00:39:06,955 of war in the modern world assesses the forbiddingly high likelihood. 1104 00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:09,180 Of a British civil War. 1105 00:39:09,795 --> 00:39:12,255 Helen: Is he, I listen to a lot of podcasts and 1106 00:39:12,255 --> 00:39:12,465 I've 1107 00:39:12,740 --> 00:39:13,100 Adam: heard of him 1108 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,370 Andy: he's not been on any 1109 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:15,855 Helen: David Starkey's YouTube channel? 1110 00:39:15,855 --> 00:39:16,830 If that's be. 1111 00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:17,370 I know 1112 00:39:17,890 --> 00:39:22,530 Andy: there's a really circular element to this where people are taking, as 1113 00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:25,890 gospel things, they're reading in the comments under other people's articles. 1114 00:39:25,890 --> 00:39:29,760 So Lionel Schrier writes in the comments under articles like this one, native 1115 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,890 Britain's owing to Leave in droves. 1116 00:39:32,328 --> 00:39:36,138 a lot of the time they are, but a lot of these comments may firstly be coming 1117 00:39:36,138 --> 00:39:40,117 from other people who've left the country already, or not be an entirely 1118 00:39:40,117 --> 00:39:43,147 representative subset of British opinion. 1119 00:39:43,147 --> 00:39:47,317 There just seems to be a, a kind of circular effect, not unlike that of 1120 00:39:47,317 --> 00:39:49,597 the large language models of people saying, well, it's awful, isn't it? 1121 00:39:49,597 --> 00:39:49,867 Yes. 1122 00:39:49,867 --> 00:39:49,987 You know, 1123 00:39:51,142 --> 00:39:53,662 Ian: and a number of these pieces used as a hook? 1124 00:39:54,022 --> 00:39:57,412 well, I mean, recent surveys have said that lots and lots of, um, uh, 1125 00:39:57,412 --> 00:39:59,452 rich people are, are leaving Britain. 1126 00:39:59,662 --> 00:40:01,882 And then as, as a piece in the eye 1127 00:40:01,882 --> 00:40:02,302 pointed 1128 00:40:02,302 --> 00:40:02,452 out, 1129 00:40:02,452 --> 00:40:07,372 this survey was produced by, by a, um, consultancy, which helps 1130 00:40:07,432 --> 00:40:07,672 rich 1131 00:40:07,672 --> 00:40:08,092 people. 1132 00:40:10,252 --> 00:40:13,222 Um, so it wasn't entirely reliable. 1133 00:40:13,222 --> 00:40:13,372 Yeah. 1134 00:40:13,452 --> 00:40:13,632 Helen: Yes. 1135 00:40:13,632 --> 00:40:16,632 I'm fascinated to know how well, so Isabel Oaks shop has moved to Dubai. 1136 00:40:16,632 --> 00:40:20,712 I'm really interested to know how well she's integrated into, uh, Dubai Society. 1137 00:40:20,887 --> 00:40:23,862 We, For example, is she buying large handbags and living in a mall? 1138 00:40:23,947 --> 00:40:28,177 Andy: Well, we come to the queen of this industry, Isabel Oaks shop, um, who in 1139 00:40:28,177 --> 00:40:33,877 January this year wrote how I became a Labor School fee exile in Dubai, sick 1140 00:40:33,877 --> 00:40:35,797 of Labor's private school tax raid. 1141 00:40:35,947 --> 00:40:39,457 Oak Shop decided to swap the rolling hills of the Cowa for the desert of the UAE. 1142 00:40:39,787 --> 00:40:42,127 I do think a lot of these columnists, when they leave, they do. 1143 00:40:42,667 --> 00:40:45,097 Present it as some kind of noble Robin 1144 00:40:45,097 --> 00:40:45,337 hood 1145 00:40:45,337 --> 00:40:46,057 style thing 1146 00:40:46,057 --> 00:40:46,237 they're 1147 00:40:46,237 --> 00:40:46,687 doing 1148 00:40:46,987 --> 00:40:50,377 bravely camping out the dictatorship, which won a huge 1149 00:40:50,377 --> 00:40:51,907 election victory in last year. 1150 00:40:52,477 --> 00:40:54,427 Um, like it's not 10 66. 1151 00:40:54,427 --> 00:40:54,697 You're not 1152 00:40:54,697 --> 00:40:55,147 hiding in 1153 00:40:55,147 --> 00:40:55,237 the 1154 00:40:55,237 --> 00:40:56,767 fence from the Normans 1155 00:40:56,772 --> 00:40:58,842 Helen: in the for, she's presumably living in a nice high 1156 00:40:58,842 --> 00:41:00,342 rise service apartment block. 1157 00:41:00,402 --> 00:41:01,897 She's not in a bedroom tent, is she? 1158 00:41:01,897 --> 00:41:02,167 Andy: Yeah. 1159 00:41:02,347 --> 00:41:06,247 Now, to be fair, I, I think we should be fair to, um, to Isabel Oak shot. 1160 00:41:06,247 --> 00:41:09,547 She wrote a, she wrote a piece earlier this year, which really kicked off saying, 1161 00:41:09,757 --> 00:41:14,167 look, I don't want to be that person who moves abroad and only moans about Britain. 1162 00:41:14,287 --> 00:41:17,947 Being permanently on the lookout for mad sad things about our country is 1163 00:41:17,947 --> 00:41:21,607 bad for the soul and unfair on everyone who is stuck here making the best 1164 00:41:21,607 --> 00:41:21,997 of it. 1165 00:41:22,327 --> 00:41:24,547 So that's a, that is a, that's a really self aware point. 1166 00:41:25,117 --> 00:41:27,697 I'm just gonna give you a few of her other, uh, recent headlines. 1167 00:41:28,507 --> 00:41:31,147 Britain is trapped in a dizzying decline, and London is, its 1168 00:41:31,147 --> 00:41:33,547 epicenter with this caliber of mp. 1169 00:41:33,547 --> 00:41:35,557 It's no wonder Britain is on the decline. 1170 00:41:35,887 --> 00:41:40,237 Our once civilized country deserves better than these filthy lawless streets. 1171 00:41:40,587 --> 00:41:44,307 It's no good telling us there's less crime, the British people know 1172 00:41:44,307 --> 00:41:44,847 better. 1173 00:41:46,568 --> 00:41:47,607 Helen: come back to question, 1174 00:41:47,607 --> 00:41:50,937 which is, how how do you, even asking ask your taxi driver 'cause 1175 00:41:50,937 --> 00:41:52,107 you are not even in Britain. 1176 00:41:52,107 --> 00:41:52,587 I just, 1177 00:41:52,617 --> 00:41:52,947 Andy: just I know. 1178 00:41:53,007 --> 00:41:54,717 Well, that column ended with these words. 1179 00:41:54,807 --> 00:41:58,287 Um, it would be easier to stop caring than keep calling it out. 1180 00:41:58,407 --> 00:42:00,597 That is the attitude of some wealthy people who treat 1181 00:42:00,597 --> 00:42:02,487 countries like hotels, flitting 1182 00:42:02,487 --> 00:42:02,667 Helen: from 1183 00:42:02,667 --> 00:42:02,907 one 1184 00:42:02,907 --> 00:42:03,057 to 1185 00:42:03,057 --> 00:42:03,417 another 1186 00:42:03,897 --> 00:42:04,227 according 1187 00:42:04,227 --> 00:42:04,377 to 1188 00:42:04,377 --> 00:42:04,767 cost, 1189 00:42:04,827 --> 00:42:05,247 Andy: perceived 1190 00:42:05,247 --> 00:42:05,577 star 1191 00:42:05,577 --> 00:42:07,137 rating and level of service. 1192 00:42:07,167 --> 00:42:07,437 How 1193 00:42:07,437 --> 00:42:08,217 depressing. 1194 00:42:09,459 --> 00:42:09,922 Adam: correspondence runs. 1195 00:42:10,462 --> 00:42:10,552 Andy: It's 1196 00:42:10,552 --> 00:42:10,762 not 1197 00:42:10,762 --> 00:42:11,572 just what country are 1198 00:42:11,572 --> 00:42:11,992 you in, it's what 1199 00:42:11,992 --> 00:42:12,382 planet are 1200 00:42:12,382 --> 00:42:12,922 you on? 1201 00:42:12,922 --> 00:42:14,302 I cannot believe this. 1202 00:42:14,302 --> 00:42:14,482 I'm sorry. 1203 00:42:14,482 --> 00:42:14,692 I love it. 1204 00:42:15,322 --> 00:42:15,562 It's 1205 00:42:15,562 --> 00:42:17,157 the do barometer. 1206 00:42:19,677 --> 00:42:19,917 I know. 1207 00:42:20,002 --> 00:42:20,452 I'm sorry 1208 00:42:20,452 --> 00:42:20,572 to 1209 00:42:20,572 --> 00:42:20,812 ran. 1210 00:42:20,842 --> 00:42:22,522 As you guys know, I'm a sunny sort. 1211 00:42:22,522 --> 00:42:23,692 I like, I'm an optimist. 1212 00:42:23,692 --> 00:42:27,142 I'm a cheery guy, but it just, I, I can't believe it should be in Dubai. 1213 00:42:27,142 --> 00:42:27,472 Weather's 1214 00:42:27,503 --> 00:42:27,817 Helen: lovely. 1215 00:42:29,714 --> 00:42:33,554 Ian: I noticed that private eye last issue had a, um, a piece 1216 00:42:33,554 --> 00:42:35,354 by someone called Isabelle Cheap 1217 00:42:35,354 --> 00:42:39,524 Shot, um, in which he complained about Dubai saying it was full of 1218 00:42:39,524 --> 00:42:43,694 foreigners and half of them were Muslim and they were Bangladeshi workers 1219 00:42:44,219 --> 00:42:44,489 Adam: half finished, 1220 00:42:45,074 --> 00:42:47,444 Ian: finished, um, construction sites. 1221 00:42:47,444 --> 00:42:48,614 I mean, it sounds awful, 1222 00:42:49,243 --> 00:42:50,833 Adam: the point we were making with that hack watch piece, this 1223 00:42:50,833 --> 00:42:52,153 isn't just people going abroad. 1224 00:42:52,153 --> 00:42:55,603 It genuinely, every single one of them was talking about Tinder Box Britain and 1225 00:42:55,603 --> 00:42:58,543 how it was on the verge of revolution, which a, you can't know at all. 1226 00:42:58,543 --> 00:43:00,733 And b, there is a point where that just becomes kind of 1227 00:43:00,733 --> 00:43:03,103 inciting a situation from abroad. 1228 00:43:03,338 --> 00:43:06,608 in my ideal world, it would disqualify you from making any comments on 1229 00:43:06,608 --> 00:43:09,068 anything going on in Britain at all if you have chosen to move to Dubai 1230 00:43:09,068 --> 00:43:10,478 or Florida or anything like that. 1231 00:43:10,478 --> 00:43:13,748 But it certainly does surely stop you to doing big state 1232 00:43:13,748 --> 00:43:15,398 of the Nation and YOY pieces. 1233 00:43:15,398 --> 00:43:16,508 He absolutely has to, 1234 00:43:16,508 --> 00:43:16,808 doesn't 1235 00:43:16,808 --> 00:43:16,988 it? 1236 00:43:16,988 --> 00:43:18,818 Helen: I think one of the horrible things about journalists 1237 00:43:18,818 --> 00:43:20,888 in the internet environment is you have to consciously make. 1238 00:43:21,008 --> 00:43:23,648 Uncommercial choices to do good work. 1239 00:43:23,888 --> 00:43:24,128 Right. 1240 00:43:24,128 --> 00:43:27,308 And hope that in some it pays off in some larger cosmic way or moral 1241 00:43:27,308 --> 00:43:29,168 way, or maybe the subscription way. 1242 00:43:29,168 --> 00:43:32,468 I mean, this is, yeah, but this is the subscription model versus the ad funded 1243 00:43:32,468 --> 00:43:36,188 model, which again, to neatly tie the podcast together, Google's going to solve 1244 00:43:36,188 --> 00:43:38,618 by depriving anyone of any viral traffic. 1245 00:43:38,828 --> 00:43:41,558 So those stories are gonna become pointless to write soon. 1246 00:43:43,538 --> 00:43:43,898 viral 1247 00:43:43,898 --> 00:43:47,858 traffic will not, will not exist in any year's time because no one will, 1248 00:43:47,918 --> 00:43:49,208 there's no point hopping on a trend. 1249 00:43:49,208 --> 00:43:51,938 It will just, people just read about it in the AI Google AI summary. 1250 00:43:52,148 --> 00:43:56,288 We are, I think the one thing that we are gonna see is, is it maybe, when is AI 1251 00:43:56,288 --> 00:44:00,278 Isabel Oak shot exists, will acknowledge that actually air was a good thing after 1252 00:44:00,278 --> 00:44:00,428 all. 1253 00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:05,270 Andy: Thank you all for listening to page 94. 1254 00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:07,640 We'll be back again in a fortnight with another one. 1255 00:44:08,060 --> 00:44:10,686 If you've enjoyed the show, then why not get a subscription to the magazine? 1256 00:44:10,686 --> 00:44:13,056 Go to private hyphen i.co.uk. 1257 00:44:13,086 --> 00:44:14,286 It's really good. 1258 00:44:14,661 --> 00:44:15,321 It's really good. 1259 00:44:15,321 --> 00:44:17,751 The cartoons on the, in the magazine itself are way better 1260 00:44:17,751 --> 00:44:19,011 than the cartoons on the podcast. 1261 00:44:19,401 --> 00:44:20,336 You know, I are not good. 1262 00:44:21,166 --> 00:44:23,091 Helen: I've arrested for anything we've said on the podcast yet. 1263 00:44:23,091 --> 00:44:23,421 Not even 1264 00:44:23,421 --> 00:44:23,896 us there. 1265 00:44:23,901 --> 00:44:24,831 Exactly, 1266 00:44:24,831 --> 00:44:25,581 Andy: exactly. 1267 00:44:25,581 --> 00:44:27,741 Uh, so private hyen night.co uk. 1268 00:44:27,741 --> 00:44:28,821 Get your subscription now. 1269 00:44:29,211 --> 00:44:30,831 Uh, until then, that's all. 1270 00:44:30,921 --> 00:44:33,171 Enjoy the weather and we'll see you in a fortnight for another one. 1271 00:44:33,171 --> 00:44:35,571 Thanks to you for listening and thanks as always to Matt Hill 1272 00:44:35,571 --> 00:44:36,951 of Rethink Cordio for producing. 1273 00:44:37,041 --> 00:44:37,641 Bye for now. 1274 00:44:38,453 --> 00:44:38,924 great. 1275 00:44:38,924 --> 00:44:41,114 Adam: when you said two of us have crossed the Shorts 1276 00:44:41,114 --> 00:44:41,714 Rubicon, 1277 00:44:41,984 --> 00:44:43,064 I will not say on, 1278 00:44:43,699 --> 00:44:46,379 off because it sounded extremely IFF to me. 1279 00:44:48,524 --> 00:44:48,674 Andy: I'm 1280 00:44:48,674 --> 00:44:50,354 not gonna say who's wearing shorts. 1281 00:44:50,534 --> 00:44:50,834 I'm only 1282 00:44:50,969 --> 00:44:51,569 Helen: say yes, you 1283 00:44:51,569 --> 00:44:51,809 are. 1284 00:44:52,429 --> 00:44:52,779 Andy: There 1285 00:44:52,839 --> 00:44:53,299 are four, 1286 00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:53,939 there 1287 00:44:54,014 --> 00:44:55,034 are four knees on 1288 00:44:55,034 --> 00:44:55,724 display. 1289 00:44:56,305 --> 00:44:59,245 Ian: And neither of them are what I believe are called short, 1290 00:44:59,245 --> 00:45:01,165 short, this year's summer fashion. 1291 00:45:01,615 --> 00:45:03,535 Uh, they're, they're middling. 1292 00:45:03,865 --> 00:45:04,255 Adam: Yeah. 1293 00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:06,730 We've not, gone full Paul Mascal have we quite yet? 1294 00:45:06,735 --> 00:45:06,835 I 1295 00:45:06,955 --> 00:45:08,245 Andy: mine from the famous five range. 1296 00:45:08,425 --> 00:45:08,845 Uh, 1297 00:45:09,575 --> 00:45:09,795 Adam: got 1298 00:45:09,805 --> 00:45:12,655 Andy: pop to Kean Island after this and bust some smugglers. 1299 00:45:13,381 --> 00:45:13,801 Adam: I was gonna say 1300 00:45:13,831 --> 00:45:13,951 Helen: you 1301 00:45:13,951 --> 00:45:14,041 are 1302 00:45:14,041 --> 00:45:14,281 actually 1303 00:45:14,281 --> 00:45:14,346 are 1304 00:45:15,608 --> 00:45:15,811 doesn't 1305 00:45:15,811 --> 00:45:15,871 it? 1306 00:45:17,326 --> 00:45:17,356 Andy: I 1307 00:45:17,356 --> 00:45:17,956 think we all know. 1308 00:45:17,956 --> 00:45:18,376 I'm Tim, the 1309 00:45:18,826 --> 00:45:18,916 dog 1310 00:45:18,916 --> 00:45:19,216 leave. 1311 00:45:20,766 --> 00:45:20,986 Adam: Right.