00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:32
Unknown
Hello and welcome back to the amazing weekly podcast for acquisition entrepreneurs, holdco, builders and search funders in the UK, Europe and beyond. Sometimes you find in this space that there are people making a lot of noise and then there are people that are just head down, getting on with the work that's quietly building empires. And one such gentleman today joins me.

00:00:34:33 - 00:01:01:23
Unknown
He is a hugely successful serial acquirer who's built a group three groups, actually, of companies, five companies in total engineering and fabrication companies based in the north west of England and the West Midlands. So I'm delighted to introduce you all today to young Mark Picken. Yeah. Mark, welcome. Hi, Thanks for having me. It's an absolute pleasure and an honor.

00:01:01:23 - 00:01:23:09
Unknown
Thanks for giving up some time in your busy life. You seem to have a lot on and I think as listeners and viewers will discover over the weeks ahead, even more on as as time marches, you're an unstoppable force trying to definitely trying to have this. Despite of that, I need some sleep. yes. Snoozing is losing, as they say.

00:01:23:12 - 00:01:48:17
Unknown
So you you came to the UK. You have a successful corporate life behind you with Schneider Electric. Give us a bit of a whistle stop tour of how you found your way here, please. Yeah, Yeah, that's actually. That was it's kind of a funny story because so I spent like over a decade and Schneider Electric and various countries.

00:01:48:17 - 00:02:18:10
Unknown
I work for them in Germany, in Switzerland and in France mainly, but with many other countries around around the globe during that time. But how I ended up in the UK was that I, my wife and I actually started some business coaching and then we went to an event in New York and we met a guy called Phil who was also one of the partners and this enterprise.

00:02:18:13 - 00:02:37:30
Unknown
And so that was January 2020. And I remember we were in New York, we had one guy there from Hong Kong and everybody was joking around, if he's going to make it back or if all the borders are going to be shut and we all know what came after. So that was the last the last live event before that.

00:02:37:30 - 00:03:09:29
Unknown
And then we stayed in contact over over COVID and things started progressing. And then in 2022, things got pretty much going. And because I'm mainly dealing with all the operations in the group, I just couldn't go back and forth any more. So then there was the decision made to basically relocate from Cyprus at that time to the sunny UK.

00:03:09:32 - 00:03:31:18
Unknown
Yeah, I'm not sure you traded up on the sun index there. No, but I can, I can see the commute would be a lot shorter so they commuted. Definitely shorter, that's for sure. And my wife likes them weather here more than she does the the heat so. okay. Well to each their own. My wife's the opposite being of Greek descent.

00:03:31:21 - 00:04:06:12
Unknown
So. Good. Well, so you've built these three groups through acquisition. This is the sort of tried and true, you know, proper businesses from a generation of owners that, you know, had built them to a certain certain point. We have Phil to thank for. Patriot new to the UK to effectively oversee these and grow these operations so allied global engineering in Manchester as one group GE engineering in Oldham as another group and then Suffolk is solutions in Birmingham as your third platform.

00:04:06:15 - 00:04:37:17
Unknown
You've been very busy then in the last four years up to this point. Yeah. Allied is the is the group that's, that's that's, that's across and we have we have two machining businesses which are essentially acting as one. That's why we refer to it as like the machining part of the business. And then we have, we have like GE, which is the production fabrication part of it and Sandvik has, which is more shop fitting fabrication.

00:04:37:17 - 00:05:09:15
Unknown
So they do like more high street stuff and yeah, great. So you have this unique background which arguably bridges German precision and British grit, which I would argue makes you perfectly suited to this particular sector that you've chosen to build your empire. Right? But how how is that combination showing up in in the style of leadership that you've brought to these businesses as I'm.

00:05:09:18 - 00:05:55:20
Unknown
How do how do I say that I'm I'm pretty direct which I am I'm trying to adjust my tone to to be more British sometimes but as my leadership style is, it's usually a very direct style. But I can I can find Junior depending on who I'm talking to and what the what the situation is. A lot a lot of the times when when we acquire a business, there's a huge cultural change because things get done a certain way and probably for good reasons, or because they have been always done that way for the last ten years, 20 years, whatever it was.

00:05:55:23 - 00:06:21:27
Unknown
And then trying to change that, depending on the on the time you have, you can be a bit more relaxed or you have to be very decisive, which is very, very blunt. Sometimes I'm I'm very transparent in my in my leadership style. So everybody that that works for me and works with me usually always knows where I stand.

00:06:21:27 - 00:06:50:07
Unknown
Exactly, because I share as much information as I can, unless I'm bound by confidentiality. But other than that, I'm sharing the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of customer feedback, in terms of what works and what not works. And one of the things I have managed to establish mostly is that don't hide anything. So as I we don't we don't lie.

00:06:50:07 - 00:07:34:33
Unknown
We don't try to hide anything. If somebody makes a mistake, we'll deal with it and we'll get will get on with it, because that's the only way how we can learn, how we can grow. And I think that's that's mainly my my natural style. And then there are. And have you found those have you found you've had to give permission for teams to behave that way, to to be open and transparent and collaborative in that sense, because owner operated businesses in the UK, I'm generalizing, but I have tended to find in my experience that there have been a bit of, you know, unwillingness to embrace negative news that's kind of culturally, you know, woven into

00:07:34:33 - 00:08:15:18
Unknown
the fabric of some of these businesses. And have you found that with the businesses you bought, you've had to kind of re-engineer the culture to be more open and transparent? Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's usually it comes out of it comes out of fear. At least that's my that's my feeling to when when you give people the permission to fail, they look at it you like you're, you're crazy and it is I think I think a lot of times and I and it took me a while in my career to figure out that honesty actually propels you much further in your career.

00:08:15:21 - 00:08:34:33
Unknown
And if you are trying to hide things, especially if you if you climb up the chain and it's like a few examples, this I got I got promotions that at that point I didn't want to because I wanted to get out, but I got them because I was like one of the few ones that was like just bluntly telling how it is.

00:08:35:02 - 00:09:04:11
Unknown
And a lot of people think you get punished for it and and to to be to be fair, in a lot of companies, you do as if you are the bearer of bad news. You're usually the one that is like captivated indeed so so creating that that that trust based openness that that culture of of sharing and owning both the good, the bad and the ugly, as you say, has been quite transformational for the businesses.

00:09:04:11 - 00:09:27:20
Unknown
I'm pleased to hear you mentioned in a previous conversations about how these businesses before you got hold of them were ultimately owner led businesses. I think you've used the word chaotic in some cases where perhaps you've had to bring bring order from chaos and create these scalable future ready companies that you describe them to now be. Walk us through what that looks like.

00:09:27:20 - 00:10:00:16
Unknown
I mean, in terms of, you know, what might be broken when you get there that you had to you had to fix beyond the culture is when you a lot of the time it's it's not only owner let but it doesn't matter over a lot of teams they have something which is called tribal knowledge. So they they they rely on what that means if you have not the term before is basically everybody knows how it's done because it's like it's delivered in stories and whatnot.

00:10:00:16 - 00:10:25:04
Unknown
And you ask John or whoever walks the floor and how do we do that? And he was like, Yeah, the last time we did that 15 years ago, and this is how we did it. This is how they serve as products. That's how they serve as clients. And it works. It works brilliantly until some of those pieces fall apart.

00:10:25:06 - 00:10:57:25
Unknown
And very often that's like retirement sickness, unfortunately, or people just deciding to leave because they they don't like it anymore or they, they get a better opportunity or whatnot. And then a lot of the knowledge and companies gets lost because it's not institutional memory. Yeah, exactly. There is no there's no documentation or very little documentation. Usually if they are certified, which many are, there is the absolute minimum documented to pass the ISO, which is not bad.

00:10:57:28 - 00:11:22:05
Unknown
I'm not saying it's bad. It works as long as everybody knows what it is. And then and then when you start changing things, this is then when you find out that where the gaps are because as soon as you change something, it has ripple effects. And if time permits, I usually go for like a kind of an iterative approach.

00:11:22:05 - 00:11:44:28
Unknown
So I change something and then I observe it for a bit to see what happens now. And then you identify the next bottleneck and basically you go like piece by piece. And where have you found those bottlenecks to largely be in these businesses? I mean, on the shop floor or in the back end processes or, you know, in the back office?

00:11:44:28 - 00:12:11:26
Unknown
Like where are you typically having to solve those issues in these kinds of companies? If you it's it's mostly a reliable system that works. And I mean, it's also with suppliers that we deal with as like them, especially this time of the year. You send them an email and they would say it's like, yeah, my accounts department a.k.a my one person that deals with the accounts is on holiday and I can't deal with that for two weeks.

00:12:11:28 - 00:12:39:25
Unknown
So this is very, very often it's more in the back office than it is on the shop floor. Unless on the shop floor you have very specific operations of very specific parts where only one person is always doing it because they are the best at it. They've done it for a decade. They you can wake them up at 3 a.m. at night and they can do it blindfolded so nobody else gets trained because they are there and they do it.

00:12:39:31 - 00:13:05:10
Unknown
You make the most money if they do it and not somebody else. And then it's like you have that that thing we have we have done that in some of the fabricated products that that we make as only like two people knew how to how to basically make it. And if they are not there, then your production comes to a grinding halt.

00:13:05:11 - 00:13:28:09
Unknown
So it's kind of both, but I see it more in the back office just also because the headcount tends to be way lower. You have maybe two or three people in the office and the typical company, maybe four. So if you take one out, then it's already starting to get very shaky. Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I've seen that too.

00:13:28:10 - 00:13:59:31
Unknown
I think that firsthand. So did you know this going in when you were looking to buy this kind of business, or is this something that you've learned to look for? I, I would say I expected it, but there is there is theory and then there's practice. I mean, one thing I learned when I was studying and I had this idealized picture of how work works, and then I started joining a company and I realized really fast that reality is not like what I learned.

00:14:00:00 - 00:14:27:29
Unknown
And it's the same. It's the same here. It's you expect it, but every company is different. They all run somehow on Excel, even worse, it can be program macros from somebody that has like left the company like three years ago and it's then just running on that version. So I mean, there are, there are all those different type of things and you just have to be ready for it.

00:14:27:29 - 00:14:52:10
Unknown
And then they think about where you want to go and where. If you're not, if you know where you want to be, then you just you will find a way on how to how to get there piece by piece. So so armed with that expectation, then why specifically this sector? What was the attractive thing about going off to, you know, established, mature British engineering SMEs?

00:14:52:12 - 00:15:20:02
Unknown
For me, I just like engineering because I get stuff. I'm an I'm an engineer and I can't help myself. I like I like seeing ponds being made. I like fixing stuff, I like taking ponds, taking things apart. But it's it's for me, it's just it's fascinating. And if you think about it, economy wise, it's it's a really non glamorous sector.

00:15:20:05 - 00:15:59:12
Unknown
I mean, nobody nobody talks about the small engineering businesses that have five employees, ten employees, even. They massively undervalued, massively undervalued in the UK as they are undervalued in terms of when it comes to the price you can buy them for. But they are also undervalued for the contribution they make because that's where I'm in actually. Yeah, they they can, they can create some really qualified and good paying jobs and secure jobs.

00:15:59:15 - 00:16:29:03
Unknown
And more than that, they, they secure a vital part of the supply chain because a lot of the if everybody things about like big companies like the household names they assemble a lot of parts but somebody has to make those bonds. Yeah. And there's a lot going on in in the sector about supply chain security and also independence, especially when it with how the world is going.

00:16:29:06 - 00:16:57:14
Unknown
That is like you don't want to have those very long, vulnerable supply chains anymore. You want to have alternative. Yeah I think the offshoring era of let's let's that doesn't matter where it is in the world that is made actually, you know, long as it's cheap. I think that mindset of 20 years ago has is almost inverted now and it is about supply chain security and near shoring and being able to have greater control again.

00:16:57:17 - 00:17:20:25
Unknown
So these unsung heroes are absolutely essential parts of that of that transition. So with these companies, when you bought them, where they from retirement age owners or any of the owners still with the businesses or did they all transition out? There is one where Andrew from Suffolk cos he's he's still he's still with us. But that was that that was the plan.

00:17:20:27 - 00:17:56:10
Unknown
One left for health reasons and the other one's for retirement. So usually the way you see people near a certain age and then they realize, well, maybe I don't want to do that anymore, deal with all, with all the stress, because having a business is fun. If times are good and it's very stressful, if times are not that good and very often you go like up and down, up and down, up and down and can be week by week, month by month, depending on customer crisis.

00:17:56:13 - 00:18:28:29
Unknown
What whatever. And they, they are retired usually they they don't stay on and to be quite frank, one day it's probably better it's good to have a hand over and to have them available for specific things that only they know because of no documentation. But if you if you want to start changing things, if there is a reason why they haven't done it Yeah.

00:18:28:29 - 00:19:02:08
Unknown
So as I well so that so that end transformation we did you go into these looking to transform these businesses did you feel that they were transformation opportunities. Yeah that that was that was the plan. Yeah. As far as I it wasn't they weren't businesses that you, that you would buy and say it's like cruising so because you the way I see it in the way the way you have to think about it is if you buy it's kind of like buying a house.

00:19:02:16 - 00:19:28:26
Unknown
If you buy a house and rent it out and you buy and buy a new builds, I mean, I've heard some stories or maybe not, but let's say you buy a good quality house that is six properly done, everything up to standard newly electric, plumbing, whatever, and you rent it out. There is not a lot of value left for you to create other than the the tenant in it.

00:19:28:26 - 00:19:53:26
Unknown
But if you if you find yourself a house that is like the worst house in that neighborhood, then you get it a bit cheaper. But you have to accept the fact that you have to put in some work. And that's and it's nothing different in companies. It's just different mechanics. But you can create way more value if you find yourself a good base and then try to grow it from there.

00:19:53:28 - 00:20:17:26
Unknown
Yeah, great analogy and Mark and and that it's often said that the best returns are secured on the deal that you do going in. You know if you could actually buy a fixer upper and you can put a bit of investment into the turnaround actually exponentially, you get more out than you put in. Yeah. So, so yeah, I think there is there's, there's gold there.

00:20:17:26 - 00:20:42:20
Unknown
Definitely. And how has the transition or transformation been with these businesses? Has it been easy, Has it been difficult. Have you ever met resistance and is the job done? Are you still on the journey of transformation with these companies? We are we are definitely still on the we are definitely still on the journey. And it's it's an up it's an up and down, especially.

00:20:42:23 - 00:21:17:06
Unknown
I find it's it's very difficult to hire the right people in and because in the smaller company more than in a big company every every person in the business counts and everybody has to do their job and has to do their job properly. And you can't afford to have that weight on on the on the business because it's exponentially more harmful than it is in a and a big company now were were were nowhere near done.

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:59:24
Unknown
There have been times where it has rather been easy, I would say where we got in a and a good flow and things started clicking. But then you have external or internal factors and you go back and you have another another transition. I mean, last year I did a whole management overhaul and the fabric on the fabrication side, which basically means is like a lot of people left in the office and we, we started rebuilding and sometimes that's those are the tough decisions that come that come with it.

00:21:59:26 - 00:22:30:12
Unknown
And you have to you have you have to cut the bushes in order for the new growth to to, you know, to break through. And that is just how it is. Otherwise you end up with, you know, their branches. So it's a difficult, difficult process to go through. But but a necessary one, you know, that change. So in previous conversations, you've mentioned that the feel that the engineering sector, you know, in Europe, I guess also specifically in the UK here is a crossroads between traditional and transformation.

00:22:30:15 - 00:22:56:21
Unknown
What are you seeing specifically in that dichotomy is so a lot of a lot of companies are owned by people that either are very close to retirement age or are actually already classified as over retirement age. So they are like 68, 70. I mean, the guy with one of the guys we bought Jean J from, he was 74 when he sold it.

00:22:56:23 - 00:23:27:32
Unknown
So and it's so you have that day, they want to pass the business on very often they want to bond. Either their kids don't want the business and sometimes it's also because they might have bad feelings towards it, because it has taken their parents away, because business is intense. And if you build it as an owner, you're not going to spend a lot of time at home.

00:23:27:32 - 00:23:57:14
Unknown
Or if you are at home, you're not really, you know, present. You're not present. Yeah. So there's that part then There are a few people are willing to take to take the risks because you have to accept the fact that it can also go wrong doing your own thing and having your own business. And so there is a lot of the businesses that might just close because there is nobody to to pass it on to.

00:23:57:17 - 00:24:16:32
Unknown
And it's depending on on the owner because that's how they, they created it. So they they are the one in control. They want to be the one in control, which is fine is nothing wrong with that. It's just you have to accept the fact that you can't just hand it over because you are the only one that knows how to orchestrate that whole thing.

00:24:17:01 - 00:24:41:23
Unknown
So it's that. And then you have, especially in the in the last years, if if I think back like two years ago when when I did, when I started with the C and C side of the business and the transformation there was no air in that sense. Like it's it's now they are the they were early things. Yeah.

00:24:41:25 - 00:25:14:32
Unknown
And you could do some stuff and it was good at very little And today the rapid transformation you see in that technology sector, I mean when the latest interviews I've heard with CEOs all over the place, I mean, Klarna slashed 800 jobs and their customer service and cut down their customer service, wait time by half. Yeah. In the process and save 40 million a year.

00:25:14:32 - 00:25:38:27
Unknown
And those are the ones that are talking about it, right? I mean ibm with their h.r. A.I. that they've just released. Those are the ones that are talking because ibm obviously wants to sell their solution. So they are like, yeah, it did great for us. Now here it is for you. This is why they talk about it. But I think a lot of companies, they they don't talk about it.

00:25:38:30 - 00:26:06:22
Unknown
No, it also get more difficult to insert that kind of automation and and make those kind of economies and savings in capital plant intensive, you know, production based businesses than it is in finance companies or, you know, very human centric, data centric, then process driven companies. You could see how I would would absolutely route workforces in those companies.

00:26:06:22 - 00:26:42:22
Unknown
Whereas in the artisanal, you know, actual tangible goods space, it's more difficult. Although to your point about AI in the industry, I mean, the strides forward in in actual CAD in Canada have been incredible AI investing software. Yeah, it's it's been quite, quite transformational. And in recent months actually you adopting some of that then it allied what we what what I am what I'm having and what I'm I'm doing is like because we have Microsoft and Microsoft SharePoint Technologies.

00:26:42:25 - 00:27:00:21
Unknown
Yeah I know a lot of people say that and Phil hates it where the passion as well and that's that's all nice and fine. But the word at one point agreed that that's like the data they want to go with. But nevertheless, if you like it or not, I mean, Google is going to probably going to go in the same direction.

00:27:00:21 - 00:27:34:03
Unknown
Not that I have played with the Google Suite yet, but Microsoft has something that's called copilot integrated now, which I think is essentially GPT now. But nevertheless as it because I have both. So I've been private and I have copilot basically integrated into whole suite. They work different, they give you a different answers. But the big thing about it and this is like one of the moments I had to two weeks ago or something like that.

00:27:34:05 - 00:27:59:14
Unknown
So we had a problem whether with an assembly that we did. So we had to go down to the customer, see the customer they took the part upon with us witnessing. So the whole quality parade and then everything got taken apart and we got sent back home and had to write a report basically and suggest containment, action, corrective action and so on.

00:27:59:16 - 00:28:42:20
Unknown
Exactly so on. When we went back on, on Monday in the, in the office, I took the sales guy with me so that the two of us sat down and I wrote a whole ADP report in about an hour. And the longest it took me. The reason why it took that long was because he and me had to dig out some information manually and feed it into copilot, because copilot is can can find anything that's on on our SharePoint any any document, especially because if you are director you can see everything so it can, it can find all the documents.

00:28:42:20 - 00:29:10:01
Unknown
So you go and you put in the the name, the reference number, the drawing number, and then you feed everything in it, giving you the whole thing. And it did the same for a for a quantity management plan where you would usually hire classically a consultant for and you would be probably charged a day rate of at least £500 for a one and a half hours.

00:29:10:03 - 00:29:29:01
Unknown
And I've never done it before. I've never written a Q IMS plan. Right. But you gave you a template or did it have it? Nothing inherently not right. You just said I want an eight day. And I said, I want an ad. This is the product, this is the problem, this is the description. This is what we are thinking about.

00:29:29:01 - 00:30:02:30
Unknown
Like as a as a solution. We can refit the pens, we can do this, we can do that. And then just just push go and then it came up with the solutions. And then you read through it, obviously, and you say, Well, that doesn't sound right. All right, let's rephrase that. Take it out into word, do like put whatever in and delete whatever is garbage because it's not like 100% There were document back in, say, all right, how about this and make it like that and this is the customer name done.

00:30:02:33 - 00:30:21:18
Unknown
It's scary, isn't it? But also it's it's hugely exciting. I mean, what an empowering moment with just this kind of tech. I mean, you hear, you know, the venture world's getting carried away with this AI powered roll ups. You know, we can go and buy these traditional businesses and we can into AI and automate the hell out of it and increase the margins and blah, blah, blah.

00:30:21:25 - 00:30:42:15
Unknown
But actually, you know, that's an extrapolation. It's a perfect world unicorn scenario. But what you're living is the real world example of that, where these these things that you would normally have had to outsource or lose a day to or, you know, generally incur cost. For now, technology is helping you mitigate to that. And that should be an empowering, empowering change.

00:30:42:15 - 00:31:07:14
Unknown
A great time to be buying a business and inserting just simple things like that. I would think, yeah, that is like an off the shelf solution. There's nobody has programed anything. Nobody has done anything with it. It's just it just have all the data that is available in the company. And to be like with traditional companies, that's not a lot, but it's the enough data to be able to do something with it.

00:31:07:17 - 00:31:29:02
Unknown
I mean, in the future that would just become table stakes. But right now it's a it's a game changer. It's it's a differentiator for the companies that are embracing it. Good. So you touched on a little bit there about people. And obviously, you know, you are in an artisanal space with skilled people, something that is often lamented about Western manufacturing sectors.

00:31:29:02 - 00:31:57:20
Unknown
Is that a shortage of skilled labor? How is that playing out in your companies? I think I know probably at least 60, 70% of all the CAC engineers in Greater Manchester. That's how small the Poulos, I mean, I look for a very specific skill a couple of months back in terms of Fusion 360, which is the software that we are using.

00:31:57:23 - 00:32:29:05
Unknown
Look at it as a as a CAD software. I want that FANUC experience because that's the machine language. Yeah. And and at least five five axis experience because we have like nine axis military machines, like huge things. So you have to know what you're doing. So to the Yeah with with changer so it has a turret on on the top and then it has the two here and then one on the bottom.

00:32:29:05 - 00:32:51:28
Unknown
So as I can do a lot of things in parallel if it needs to be run by a skilled operator and I and, and I put it on indeed. And I said all right, I have to sponsor it because we're with headhunters. We have mixed we have mixed experiences. Some are really good and some are really bad as I can never remarket.

00:32:51:30 - 00:33:18:27
Unknown
So I tried that myself. So I said, All right, sponsored yet And when you sponsored yet and like indeed it gives you people that first of all it asks you adults the people that you want and you classify. Yes. No Yes. And also the algorithm learns pretty primitive in these days, to be fair. But it works. And but it also gives you the possibility to invite people to apply.

00:33:18:33 - 00:33:47:30
Unknown
You're basically giving them a nudge so they get sent a message. A message like the recruiter from this company would really like you to look at that ad and apply. And I did that. And I could do, I think, 20 a day and I would really struggle to find ten go somewhere close to what I want, not not like that effect, but where I think they are close enough that I can make it work.

00:33:47:33 - 00:34:10:27
Unknown
Though at the end I found the perfect guy and he applied by himself so I have no idea how that would but a divine intervention. He must divine intervention. He must have been really pissed off where he was before to say like, okay, I really want to change bom do because this is, this is also when people are really skilled and they are fairly treater, they would.

00:34:10:31 - 00:34:37:04
Unknown
Yeah. And I and I and I get it. I mean people have a mortgage rent to pay kids in school, whatever, whatever it is, wherever they are in their life. And macro economically, it's not felt like great conditions to change employment in the last couple of years. In fact, post-COVID, you know, other than the great resignation, there's been this kind of trepidation about, you know, it's not you know, things aren't smooth.

00:34:37:06 - 00:35:00:33
Unknown
Obviously, cost of living now is driving a lot of people to look and it's driving lots of employers to have to keep pace with the the change in the market. Yeah, but so so talent retention, you're finding if you treat them well and you get good people, that's okay. Yeah. But you know, in terms of trying to grow the business and increase the capacity and make sure you've got, you know, some additional skills there, that is hard to come by.

00:35:01:02 - 00:35:28:29
Unknown
It is. It is really hard. It's really hard to find to find good people. And and I think this is this is also one of the things because it's not it's not attractive and it's not like something that you get to know anymore and school or anything. What I mean if you if you it's like I mean I'm I'm over 40 so it's like it's hard to tell what kids do these days.

00:35:28:29 - 00:35:56:23
Unknown
And my son is eight so he's not in that age anymore. But it's nothing that is popular on social media or any trends or anything to get your hands greasy and work with with machines or wet stuff together or bend it into shape or laser, cut it. It's it's not well promoted. Yeah. So what is it as a as a career choice as well.

00:35:56:26 - 00:36:21:05
Unknown
And definitely Home office is not on the table. No. No. Exactly. So yeah, that's a that's an interesting kind of caveat for any searcher that's looking to acquire in, in the engineering spaces is there is a almost a global talent shortage in certainly in the Western developed worlds of skilled artisans, even at machine operator level for these kinds of businesses.

00:36:21:05 - 00:36:44:15
Unknown
So it can be a bit of a growth inhibitor. And some of the companies that I've looked at and worked with acquisition entrepreneurs looking at where they've actually taken skills development in-house with their own academies, or they're working with colleges on apprenticeship programs. So they're sorting some of their talent pipeline out, but it's sowing seeds for the very long term rather than having an immediate, immediate solution.

00:36:44:17 - 00:37:12:31
Unknown
So let's teleport back to 2020 and you're in New York. I finished meeting with Phil. He's talking you into the idea of coming to the UK and and doing some acquisitions and operating some engineering companies. If, if 2025 Jean-Marc was to materialize in the middle of that conversation with some advice, what would you hope that would be? This might be knowing what you know now that that that is a real good question.

00:37:12:33 - 00:37:43:12
Unknown
That's a really good question. Like say, all right, we if we if we grow if we want to do this and if we want to buy the companies, we'll have to take take a break. And we have to be very selective on when we are taking on the next deal in terms of because you are you are you adapt loaded if you if you finance it with that.

00:37:43:14 - 00:38:24:22
Unknown
Yeah. Where would you which you have to serve. Yeah. So that has to come from somewhere and to be more pushy that soon as we have the two companies that directors have to work in the business. Right. Right. In the beginning to be not like a financial burden to the business and on the one hand, but also to have a chance to learn the business because it emits nothing.

00:38:24:25 - 00:38:46:14
Unknown
I think the best thing that that happened and it sounds really it sounds really tragic because our our empty at at the time and he got sick. He got really sick so he couldn't continue to work, which is unfortunate. But for me that was the best thing because I had to go into the C and Seed business at that time.

00:38:46:14 - 00:39:10:20
Unknown
That was, that was ejl1 and located in Glossop and had to and had to run it. Was I evidence had seen machining before. No, no, I've done it at university. I knew how it looked like I know how they work. I know metals roughly. I mean I couldn't program C and C machine if my life depended on it.

00:39:10:23 - 00:39:36:12
Unknown
I probably can learn that, especially nowadays where they give like YouTube videos and you can learn G code if you really want it, you can probably done it. But it was the it was the best thing because it gave him it. I had to be really on the ground and I was in the fabrication businesses at that time on the ground and I had to learn how to quote.

00:39:36:15 - 00:40:15:01
Unknown
I had to learn how to plan the the shop floor and all the certification and implementing the MRP properly because my PS are great if they're properly. Properly. Yeah. If they are if they are half. As for better words, they are they are wrecking your business because nothing lines up anymore. And then people start cheating the system and then you have like a stock of 400 K, which you don't really have just because they don't know how to ship stuff properly and things like that.

00:40:15:09 - 00:40:39:29
Unknown
I think that would have been my advice is that there is like a mandatory half year or a year for every director to work different jobs in the business, to really, really understand how how it's going on and how does this and how it's and how it's done. And I can only give that advice to anybody that acquires a business.

00:40:39:29 - 00:41:14:00
Unknown
It's not it's not rocket science. And you can learn it, but you have to be willing to commit to that type of of thing because you see where you lose the money. You see if people if you have that culture where people are trying to hide stuff. And I mean, one thing I said is like I made clear really quickly, I started because you have those metal scrap bins where like all the swath, the chips fall into and they work.

00:41:14:03 - 00:41:48:32
Unknown
And they usually would also throw in either the setting pieces or the pieces that just got wrong when they when they were basically done so that there was like a clear communication as like and I and I was going through the staff bins every other day basically and put and took pods out and put them on the, on the canteen table and every time until no pods ended up in there and we had a discussion about why the hell that went wrong, why did we break the tap?

00:41:49:00 - 00:42:09:24
Unknown
I don't care that they broke it top. Yes, it's not ideal, but you want to learn. I mean, as I and the only way you learn is discussing. Why did we do it this way? Yeah, well, that the best way we could have done it. Is there a different way? And can we change something to not always break it up and.

00:42:09:30 - 00:42:28:24
Unknown
Yeah. And you only see these things. You only see these things when you actually immerse yourself in the shop floor, in the operation in the end where the work is done and put yourself in a position where you can have those conversations with the staff and drive that kind of continuous improvement mindset from from within rather than from above.

00:42:28:24 - 00:42:52:15
Unknown
Where you normally end up meeting resistance, right? If it's if you're if it's you by mandate, it's much more different than if it's us collectively trying to solve a problem. And it's it's day and night and that is day and night. But you also you get to you get a different respect if you try to really understand what the difficulty is.

00:42:52:15 - 00:43:33:06
Unknown
At one point, I mean, as like we had, we still have one brilliant operator, but I think it took me three months until he would start talking to me just because he's introverted. It's not because he's a bad person, but is like utopian, introverted, very competent engineer and not really trusting. So it took a long time for him to open up, but they did came some really, really good things out of it in terms of changing fixtures to make the jobs faster, using different feed speeds, using different tools.

00:43:33:09 - 00:44:05:08
Unknown
I threw away a lot of the HS as as tools and I'm like, why are we using them as like, well, we've always done it and they are cheaper. And I might, yeah, but they are cheaper than a carbide. But you can run a carbide and you just told me that you run a carbide and it's done in 5 minutes and with the HS as you do it in ten and then you have to send them for re grinding and you need five of them, it doesn't make any sense of the economy as Yeah, but as a people and I get it from the operator perspective because if they are told made you with what

00:44:05:08 - 00:44:33:00
Unknown
you have, they will make you with what you have a day. Well, if they get told you can't spend any money, then they will avoid spending any money and they will not tell you that if you spend £50 will make 200. Yeah, but I mean that's that mindset doesn't necessarily ever really permeate down to the shop floor like that, that return on investment mindset, you have to really cultivate that and give permission as we talked about earlier.

00:44:33:00 - 00:44:56:15
Unknown
So yeah, really interesting, fascinating insights and I'm sure listeners are taking quite a lot of learnings from this if they want to get involved in owning, you know, complex engineering businesses, they should proceed with caution and take the sort of approach that you've taken to get stuck in at the at the coalface, so to speak. So this task for 12 months, you mentioned to me that you've had quite a long moment.

00:44:56:15 - 00:45:21:19
Unknown
You've got some exciting things unfolding in a good way. So if we look in 12 months, we check in. Where do you hope that you are with these businesses and more? Well, as I did a few and a few changes definitely coming up. And where where I hope to be in 12 months as I definitely want to drive technology just to be as efficient as possible.

00:45:21:22 - 00:45:46:20
Unknown
I think this is like because if you think about it, if you if you run a if you run a company that has that has the robot, the robot doesn't care where it stands in the world. It gets paid the same nothing and it consumes electricity that might be a bit more expensive. So if if you want to compete, you have to opt for some automation.

00:45:46:21 - 00:46:13:18
Unknown
I want to make an impact. If you want to build a successful business, you only do that if you stay relevant. Very true to your to your business, to your colleagues and to customers. 100%. Exactly. That's been hugely insightful. Yeah. Mark, thank you so much. Is there any message you'd like to impart to our listeners and viewers? Anything that you'd like to ensure that they take away from this by way of advice or ways to contact you or anything that you might ask for from them?

00:46:13:21 - 00:46:36:22
Unknown
I know. I mean, you can't you can find me on on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is my preferred medium to be ahead. And to be honest, I do have Instagram as well and Facebook and so on. But LinkedIn is the is the best way to to reach me. I'm definitely changing about the approach and the model. And so in terms of a management buy in.

00:46:36:22 - 00:46:58:14
Unknown
So if you if you know anybody that wants to get out of their business, I'm happy to have a look at it. I'm also happy to help making a business more presentable to a buyer because I've been on the other side. I know what we look at and I know what we value, and I really also know what we don't value.

00:46:58:17 - 00:47:29:30
Unknown
So that's the that's the thing. But thanks for having me. And I hope that everybody that and thanks for listening and watching and I hope that you get something out of it that one day, something that makes it better. It's it's lovely to go from the sort of tactical to the practical, if you will, and actually hear from people that are living this post-acquisition reality of the sort of warts and all of running these businesses and glad glad that you're enjoying the ride.

00:47:29:33 - 00:48:01:20
Unknown
And mostly, yeah, mostly just stay on. As you said, it's mostly enjoyable. Yeah, great. Well, thanks again and thanks everybody for listening. We got more interviews coming up for you over the weeks ahead. But until then, keep on watching. Bye for now. Thank you. Bye.