>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from Thinking

Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain. I'm

Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live in

a Jesuit young adult community. We all live hectic

lives and often don't get time to reflect on what's happening both

to us and around us. This podcast is

meant to help you take a moment to stop and think

about where you are, where you're going, and

where your relationship with God fits into it all.

Every week I'll, meet a new guest who tells me about something they

experienced which changed their life forever

by talking about the things they wish they'd known at the time. We'll

explore the idea that God is in all things. And we'll

talk about the part that faith plays in navigating life

challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Emma, director of Pray As You Go.

She shares about her experience of walking the Camino and how

she walked her first Camino at 23.

I love talking to her because she shares about the experience of

community whilst doing the Camino and how God met

m her on the journey. So, Emma,

why did you decide to do the Camino?

>> Emma: Yeah, I'd finished my undergraduate degree, so I did

theology and I was just kind of in a stage of life.

I'd had quite a big life transition

moment. I'd been engaged and called it off

and that kind of thing. So I was kind of looking for

something to kind of, I don't know,

help me process and that sort of thing.

And, yeah, I heard about it through a

German friend who, was going to walk. She ended up not doing it and

then she was devastated that we couldn't walk it together. I

watched the film the way, which is a bit of

a cliche, but, yeah, I felt inspired to do it.

And then I ended up just kind of

deciding the day before, and then I just went for a

month, which was unexpected.

>> Julia: Were you, like, preparing for it? Were you practising walking or did you

just.

>> Emma: Absolutely not. I mean, I was 23, so it

was kind of a lot easier. And, I remember there's, I lived in Bath

at the time, and there are obviously a lot of hills in Bath,

so I remember the day before thinking, okay, if I can walk up

this hill, like, easily, I'll go and I'll be

fine. And I did it and I was like, okay, surely you need more

than that. But I didn't, prepare that much.

>> Julia: I'm, also imagining. Did you get many blisters I got,

>> Emma: At one point I had 17 blisters on both feet,

which was shocking.

>> Julia: And did you prepare in any way spiritually?

>> Emma: I want to say yes. but I did not, I didn't.

I think at the time I was. I'd say

I was kind of floating a bit. So I wasn't fully

connected into, church. I wasn't,

necessarily. I had a lot of questions at the time.

I think, I wasn't fully, kind of in my

faith, I'd say. I think God was there, but I don't

think I was fully present with it. so in the

run up. No, not really.

Hilariously, looking back on it, someone had given me a

book on St. Ignatius and I knew nothing about St. Ignatius. I

didn't come from a Catholic background, but they felt I'd

had like a cannonball moment in my life

with ending an engagement, that kind of

thing. And so I. I'd been given lots

of things but hadn't actively kind of stepped into

anything in terms of spirituality. I think

doing the Camino was probably a subconscious search for that

as well. A, kind of reconnection.

>> Julia: What does doing the Camino mean?

>> Emma: Good question. I think before I went, I would have

had no idea either. I mean, in some ways,

just journeying, journeying along and I think,

oh, gosh, this is going to be a whole lot of walking cliches, quite

literally. we should have like a little buzzer whenever there's a

cliche. But it is different for everyone. I think it, like,

everybody's journey is different just based on where they're coming

from in terms of geography, but also

spiritually where they're coming from. So I think for me on

that particular Camino, I think doing the

Camino was really being

extracted into a completely different place,

different time, a different. I mean, it

was completely different from. I'd done a lot of travelling, but it was different from

anything that I'd done before. I was going by myself.

And I think overall

it kind of means just surrendering

into it. Doing the Camino is just kind of. You just give

yourself into the journey of whatever that's

gonna look like, really.

>> Julia: And are you glad that you went on your own or do you wish you'd

taken other people?

>> Emma: I'm so glad I went on my own, but I

think definitely an aspect to it that, you just. You

join the community of what's happening when you're there.

So what was nice, after I'd walked the Camino, I

knew that I was going to do a master's degree at the London School of

Economics and it was in social anthropology. So I kind

of used that as an excuse to kind of process the pilgrimage. And

so I did my dissertation on the Camino

and as part of that I read a lot of Victor

Turner and Edith Turner, who are Catholics. Ah. As well,

which is interesting. But they've written a lot on ritual and

pilgrimage. And, one of the things Victor

Turner talks about is liminality, which got thrown around

all the time during COVID which was annoying at first, but I

do think we were in a liminal space then. But part

of that was something called communitas,

where it's kind of like a heightened solidarity

that you have with people. and I don't think I would

have had that if I would have gone with other people. I think

I really gave myself into the community that's in that

kind of vague space of

what is this place of, you know, unknown kind of the in between.

I think he calls it something like betwixt and

between. It's like a really beautiful phrase,

but you really have to rely on the

people there and that sense of community

is like, it's really strong. So. Yeah.

>> Julia: And if you've not done the Camino before, can you tell us a bit

about what the actual day looks like or how the process

of the journey?

>> Emma: Yeah. So each day

you get up quite early, especially if you're doing it in warmer

months because you want to beat the sun. so I'm

normally up at, by six

and walking. and then you do about six hours of walking,

maybe seven, depending on pace, and

you're basically just following arrows. It's wonderful. You have all

the decisions of life taken away from you. All you have to do is follow the yellow

arrows of the trail and you'll stop in

little villages or towns along the way. There are some beautiful

churches as well that you can stop and pray at.

Lots and lots of kind of bars and pubs.

People have said it's like the longest pub crawl technically.

but yeah, there's a lot of time for kind of social

interaction and spiritual interaction.

you spend kind of evenings having dinner perhaps with the people

that you've met or the people that you've come with. But yeah,

essentially after your day of walking is done, you do the

shower, you wash your clothes, you tend to your blisters. There's a whole

like blister festival going on in the, in the albergues,

which are, ah, like the inns that you stay at people tending to

their. Their wounds on the walk. And,

yeah, you go to bed pretty early because you're pretty tired, so.

>> Julia: And you're going to get up early than.

>> Emma: You're going to get up early, so. Yeah, that's exactly it.

>> Julia: So you kind of talked about the blisters.

>> Emma: Yes.

>> Julia: What are the challenges of doing the Camino?

>> Emma: Yeah, you know what I mean? It is physically

tiring. I really noticed the difference when

I went back two years ago to do a

week, the first week in the Pyrenees. And,

I found it really hard. And I, you know, in my head I

was like, you know, this was easier before. And I was

like, oh, I was 23. so you do notice the difference?

It is quite physically, tiring, depending on, like,

which bit you're doing. I stupidly packed heavier the

second time. so there's that.

I think quite a lot comes out emotionally as

well. I found, There's a week in the desert,

which. The mesetas. And, there's not

a lot in terms of landscape. It's kind of just flat, dry.

You've got not a lot going on. And for me, that's where a

lot of, like, the emotional stuff kind of came up. And I think that's

where a lot of God kind of met me there.

so that was quite demanding as well.

But, yeah, you get to certain points, it's normally when I get to

Pamplona, which is really significant as well. When I've done it, the times that

I have done, I feel emotionally, like, giving up

already. It's only been like, three or four days, but I'm like, why am I

here? You have to really kind of move past that. And, Yeah,

it is just. It's tiring. But I think that is what

pilgrimage is.

>> Julia: Yeah. I feel like with lots of experiences, but especially

pilgrimages, you have that, like, first day

excitement, then it starts to get real and you've still got

quite a while to go. And so then you're like, do I just

give up now? And then you push through that and

then you can see the end. And that's

where the joy comes in it, I suppose.

>> Emma: Absolutely. And I think it's harder when you're

only doing a week, I think, because you. You can push

past, but then you're done. Whereas if you've got the whole

stretch ahead of you, you're like, oh, it would be worth it. And you have the

time to push past it and it becomes easier. And

see, I've always found Doing a week at a time, much harder.

>> Julia: I guess your ending isn't an

actual finished part of it as well.

Like. Yeah, you're not in Santiago to, like,

celebrate.

>> Emma: There's no. Yeah, there's no fun.

>> Emma: You just go home. No, it's, Yeah, no, that is

true. Although I remember someone saying to me that, like, the

pilgrimage is like, coming home as well, so the end

place is always actually where you're returning to.

and, yeah, that. That stays with me a lot. And

it has. I think that has echoes with, like.

I've also done the Ignatian

spiritual exercises, where you're away for, you know,

four or five weeks in silence. And I always

mirror the two. They're very similar. To me, they're both pilgrimages

in their own way. But people talk about the fifth week of the

exercises, like, the coming home part and that kind of

thing, and. Yeah, that being really important.

>> Julia: So what makes the Camino different from a walking holiday?

>> Emma: Yeah, I mean, particularly the Camino de Santiago is its

own kind of special thing. I mean, pilgrimage is

very different from a walking holiday. You're walking

towards something. in the case of the Camino de

Santiago, the belief is that St. James is buried,

at the cathedral of, Santiago de

Compostela. but obviously lots of people walk. They don't

have a faith. there's a legend that

it's been sort of a pilgrimage or a camino long

before St. James. But, you know, for the purposes

of now, lots of people walk towards and then

they arrive at the cathedral and it's a beautiful

moment. wherever they've come from, it's been a long journey.

And there's a statue of St. James there and you can touch

his feet. I knew one person who.

They'd done, like, the whole five or six weeks of walking arrived

and big moving moment. They were walking towards the

statue to have that real amazing

moment. And then this group of tourists just came off a

bus and completely went in front of her. And

she had to wait for, like, a long time to.

To reach the statue.

>> Julia: My favourite thing about Santiago, cathedral

is the swinging thurible.

>> Emma: It is amazing. And even for people that don't have a

faith of any kind, when they have a swinging.

What did you call it?

>> Julia: Thurible.

>> Emma: Thurible, yes.

>> Julia: It's where they have the inside of it.

>> Emma: Yeah.

>> Julia: And so it's like, if you don't know what a thurible is, they, like,

swing them during Mass. and normally it's Just in your

hands and an altar server will do it.

But with this one, it like, takes like six men

or something pulling it. Bit like a bell ringer,

and they pull it up and down and it swings literally like the

full length of the cathedral.

>> Emma: Oh, is it the width? Yeah, the width of the cathedral. But

it's absolutely amazing. And even, you know. Yeah, people without

faith will just come to. Come to watch that

because it's such a moving moment. It is a moving

moment. I think I could be wrong, but I

think the actual reason for the incense was because the pilgrims

used to smell so bad. Yeah, that's the Roman that they would swing the

incense. But now it's a beautiful part of the mass.

and yeah, it's such a draw for

people to have that moment in the cathedral of arrival.

And it's a very special place.

And people are arriving every day, so there's a

celebration every day. Which. Where else do you get that in the

world? People arriving and having a party every

night. It's wonderful.

>> Julia: So is the Camino a bit like a

mountaintop moment in that you're walking it,

you're getting closer to God,

you're having this, like, real experience of him, and

then you're coming, then having to come back and coming back down

the mountain.

>> Emma: Yes and no. Yeah. I think especially for that first

one, there's nothing like arriving in Santiago.

Although I was really adamant. I was, I'm going to arrive by myself. It's a

really important moment. But then you don't have anyone to celebrate with. So,

yeah, I felt a bit alone at that point. but,

yeah, in some ways you do you really meet with God.

and I suppose you get that kind of glow of the post Camino

glow that stays around for a while and then, sure, you can't

live in that space forever. but I think

there's an element with the Camino that it does stay

with you. Again, cliche buzzer.

I can close my eyes sometimes and still feel like

I'm there. I can go, like, very present back to that

place. I think it's probably something to do with when

you're physically walking, like, you're embodying something.

And it's kind of embodied prayer, pilgrimage. It's just,

you know, walking. your body remembers so much.

>> Julia: So how did you find God in the

Camino?

>> Emma: I mean, one was like, it's obvious. Again, cliche.

Nature was just a huge one. I'd grown up

in, like, a Christian community in North Devon

called Lee Abbey, so that was My first experience of kind of life was

meeting God in nature and the hills and the seas

and, like, creatures. and, you know, there was one

guy who I'd met. It was his fourth Camino, and he

said, oh, like, there's always a little

bird that just, like, hops along the path in front of

me for, like, miles, and he's like, that's God.

In my head, I was, like, a bit cynical about that first, but

then I had a little butterfly that did a similar thing, and I was like,

okay, yeah, maybe God is here. So in

really small ways, and just on the road in

general, I mentioned the desert before. I think there's a lot

of God there. I think whenever

I've done, like, an examine on the experience, I think one of the

places that I found God the most was through the other people.

that, again, sense of community really drew me

out of myself. And I think that was God quite present in

other people doing that. I think I didn't have

a huge, like, sense of self before

I walked the first Camino, and the difference was,

like, huge. I don't think I would have stepped into

the job that I'm in now. I don't think I

would have fully known God in a

deeper way. And it's similar when I

have done other things, like the, spiritual

exercises. Even though you're in silence, it's the people

that you're with as well that really always

speak to me. And I'm an introvert. So that always really

surprises me that people, you

know, God is in people so much.

And that's always where I found God and whether that's

people. I think a lot of people on the Camino,

obviously, are, Christians or Catholics. And just the

depth of the conversations that you have as well about God. Everyone

wants to talk about God on the Camino, whether they've come for God or

not. And I do think God's

just present there, in those moments, and

it's really beautiful.

>> Julia: Does that sense of community continue once you finish the

Camino?

>> Emma: Yeah, I've stayed in touch with a lot of people that I've

walked with. I've gone to visit them in their countries and, stayed with

them, that kind of thing. There is a solidarity, I think

there's. There's a sense of experience that sort

of only we have in that time and place.

And even I went back

maybe six or seven years ago as well, to do a week

with my dad, and he'd just gone through

cancer treatment, and it was just a Real space

for us to kind of bond again and that kind of thing.

And it really was. And I think between

my dad and I, we got a different relationship from it,

and that's lasted and stayed. And

I'm sure we would have had something similar without

it. But I think there was something really special

about the walking together and

the memory of that and being together in that space.

That stays with us a lot.

>> Julia: And I suppose it's something that you can always go back to. You were saying

earlier about if you close your eyes, you can feel it. But I

suppose it's something you've got in common.

You can chat about together as well. Because, I often

find on those, what I count as mountaintop

moments. That's quite hard when you come back because

you've had this experience that might or might not be

life changing, but then you're trying to explain it to other people

who've not had it, and that's quite a

challenge.

>> Emma: Yeah. And you find you end up really annoying them. Because

when I came back from my first Camino, it's all I could talk

about. and when I started

my master's degree, it was all I would talk about and

it became a joke. but also it's.

Yeah, it is really. It's really hard to convey. And

I think it's because it's so unique and precious to you.

And other people will have different experiences in those

places. You know, I talk to a lot of people who go to Taze, and they have the same

experience for them. so I think

we catch glimpses of each other's kind of stories in those. And

that's. That's really beautiful. I think.

>> Julia: I think that that's really nice that in that

people might have that experience of God at Taize, and then

you've had that experience of God on the Camino. But, like, God speaks

to us in a way that we,

nourishes our soul, maybe, is what I'm trying to say. It's like,

different to different people because we're all different.

>> Emma: Yeah. But it's still God, and it's still the same

consolation. I think it is just, you

know, Gerard Manley Hopkins talks about christ

playing in 10,000 spaces. I've probably butchered that quote.

But, I think, yeah, it is the

consolation of Christ and just playing out in different

ways in different people's lives for those particular

moments. And that's very special.

>> Julia: So I've not done the Camino before, and you were talking about

that sense of community, and that is Something that

I understand from going on silent retreat. I always

find it interesting that I don't know the names of people,

I don't know anything about them, but I'm. As.

I'm on retreat with them, I am praying for

them. and obviously on the Camino, you can talk to

people. and then at the end you kind of. I

mean, at Binos, you get to have breakfast with them and then you get to find out

a bit about them. Have you had that experience with anyone?

>> Emma: I have. I've had that experience. I have that a lot.

especially when I was doing the 30 days. You get sort of influx

of different people each week and that can be disruptive

sometimes. But, there was one week where

actually it was Harry Cooper, who you've heard on your

podcast before, and we'd never met before. When I'm in silence,

I will name people just because it helps me pray for them.

I named him Jack. Didn't know his name, but I

found he would. He would often, steal my jigsaw

puzzle time, because that's really all you can do on a retreat for fun.

so that was a little bit frustrating. And then there was a. There was a moment

where we, we were so hungry. They only

gave us, like, one slice of pizza. And, you know, obviously we were the

only kind of young people there. And we just kept sort

of looking at each other at dinner like, can we take another slice?

Can we do that? And we ended up

just giggling a lot. And then he, you know, he left. I

continued my retreat and then we had an event at Farm Ah,

Street Church maybe three months later,

and we just ran at each other and hugged and

we were like, oh, it's so good to see you. And we were like, what is

your name? We just didn't know. So we were

meeting each other for the first time, but not really. So there's

that weird bond of silence that kind of

brings you together in humour and in a depth

of God and, you know, friendship

without even knowing someone's name. And I think it is a

little bit like that on the Camino as well, because I remember the first time

I walked the Camino, I noticed no one really

asked each other what they did for their jobs, which

was really fascinating to me. We just didn't

do that. And you had this whole picture of a person

without what they did. And, But yet you

feel so close to them and there's such a

depth and the depth of conversation and

experience that you're sharing is just huge.

>> Julia: Yeah, it's interesting because as a society we introduce people

by going, this is Emma, she's director of Prayers. You

go, which almost puts your value on what

you do, but not on you as a human being. Which I

guess is what you did have when you were doing the Camino together and not

talking about jobs. Yeah.

>> Emma: And I don't, I think it was a fluke because since I've been back, obviously

the weeks I've been, we've all talked about what we've done. So for some

reason, for that first Camino, it was such an odd experience. I don't

remember anything that anybody did in their lives just because they were

that person at that time in this place and

that's who they were.

>> Julia: If you would go and give your 23 year old

self a piece of advice, what bit of advice would you have

given her?

>> Emma: I think especially when she was

deciding whether to do it, just do it, just get on with

it. And I think because I was very hesitant,

before I think that it would

be okay. I think there's the advice of

just surrender to it in some ways and just,

it's okay to kind of lean into the community that's there.

Ah.

>> Julia: Can you, can you remember what made you hesitant?

>> Emma: I think there was a lot of fear because it's such an unknown.

I'm actually going, I'm going back towards Camino in two

days time with my husband and it's interesting watching him go through

it, asking all the questions because he has no idea.

It's just such an unknown. And you can watch all the films and read all the

blogs and watch all the vlogs and that kind of thing, but

until you're there. And even when I went

looking back on it, I was like, it looked nothing like how my research

went. Like you, you have to really be there.

So I think it was the hesitation was a lot of

fear, a lot of the unknown. but that's

part of it. I think it's, it's the stepping out into

something completely new that makes it such

an amazing thing. and I think sometimes when we step

into those spaces with God as well, God really

meets us there. I don't know if it's because we have a huge need in

that moment because we're so afraid, but I think,

yeah, that was the hesitation. And

so I think I'd probably encourage my 23 year old self.

I don't know if I'd tell her not to be afraid because it's part of it, but

maybe that it will be okay. You can surrender into it and

there's something amazing on the other side of it.

>> Julia: I think that's great advice whether you're 23 or

53 or whatever age.

so you mentioned how in two days time you're going back with your husband.

So what takes you back? What makes you want to

go back?

>> Emma: it's a good question because in some

ways it's a bit like Narnia, like when the kids try

and get back in the wardrobe to go back and they can't.

And I think every time I've been back it's never been the same

as first Camino. I went on the draw of it is

that there's always a hope that when you extract yourself from your

normal life and you enter into that liminal space

that you'll meet God and it will be amazing again.

And I think each one has had its own graces for

that time, but perhaps it will never look as like

that mountaintop experience of the first one.

But I think there's something in the act of going back

that is really important for me now in

the sense of a spiritual life. It's

kind of a, physical kind of testimony or an

embodiment of I'm doing this, I'm walking

in the hopes of meeting with God. I'm enacting

walking towards God as well. So there

are elements of that. But yeah, each one has different graces

and different gifts and different people

that you meet.

>> Julia: I suppose each one has a different Emma

walking. Like you're not, as you've said before, you're not the

23 year old Emma that you were. So it's a different person

walking. It's ah, even if

like physically it's still the same person, it's still

emotionally, spiritually a very different person walking it. So

it's a different way that God will meet you in that time.

>> Emma: Absolutely, yeah. I hadn't thought about that. But it is, yeah, it is a

totally different Emma walking each time. And I

suppose in some ways I need it less than I did from

that first one. so it's, yeah, that makes it

a different experience. And yeah, it's,

it's for a different purpose. But I mean for some people it's a

real addiction. Like I remember on my first ever morning

of walking the Camino, someone said there was

a Japanese girl who had just finished the whole

thing and she'd gone immediately back to the beginning to start again

that day. And you know, some people

do they just want to live their life walking around in circles and doing it

again and again. And I'd met people who had walked.

It was their 10th Camino, someone was walking from

Jerusalem that he'd been walking for years. You know, there's just different,

I think for everybody, they respond to it differently. And there is

that urge, to immediately walk again. And

you feel it. But again, like we were saying, the

going home is, is really important.

>> Julia: Yeah, I was just, I was kind of thinking about that idea of

walking it again immediately. And in my head

that I guess you're quite excited anyway to

be like fish. But I think it comes back to that kind of

thing that I often find in spiritual direction that I end up in

the feeling like I'm in the same place with God. Like,

I keep going. And then I had my

mind blown when my spiritual director was like, you might feel like

you're going in a circle, but really you're going like in a spiral.

So you're going deeper every time. And I guess, like

when you do the Camino, you're going into it and

you're not going right to this physically, you're going right

to the start, I'll be clear. But like, maybe spiritually you're not

going right where you were when you were 23 to do it the first time.

You're going to. it in a deeper level.

>> Emma: Yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, and I think

that's so true. And it's like what you're saying about the different versions

of walking, but actually there's probably depth

and newness each time. it happens. I mean,

from the outside I probably look really stupid just going back again,

but lots of people do it. but yeah, I think that depth is

there each time. It's just allowing space. It's kind of like going on

retreat. It's allowing God the space to move and work.

And I think now I go into them more

intentionally with God, whereas I didn't with

the first one. But, you know, that's how I go now.

>> Julia: So how has your perspective of God

changed? Having done multiple

Caminos.

>> Emma: I think

looking back on my perspective of God from the first

Camino I did, I think I obviously, I

come from such an evangelical Anglican

background that

I think I had quite a boxed in view of God. And it's

funny, I hadn't had a huge amount, even though I went to a Jesuit university.

I hadn't had a huge amount of contact with

Ignatian spirituality. But I think I kind of found it

in a way on my first one of that box

being Kind of opened up in a big way

and that God can be present

in so many different ways and so many different things.

So each Camino that I go to now, I'm

noticing more. So I look out more. I've got the

kind of antenna up just to notice where God is

a bit more. And so I think my perspective's

changed that I find God to be present

in so many different ways and not

just in the churches that you visit along the way and that

kind of thing, and

just kind of in daily life. And this

again, cliche, but there's something about the

Camino being a reflection of our whole life

in terms of walking towards God. So it sort of doesn't matter

where we are in our daily life. We are all walking towards God.

And I think that's really changed my perspective as well. But it

is the journey, of making our way just a little

bit at, ah, a time with other people, wherever we are.

And yeah, so it's framed my whole kind of

universe of how I look at God and each other.

>> Julia: So what things do you wish you knew?

>> Emma: So from a practical sense, I

was carrying my bag. I wish that I had packed lighter.

I mean that's just simple. and it's just good sense.

I ended up shedding a lot of the things that I'd brought with me on the

way. You can buy things on the way

as well, it's fine and you have help. I wish I'd

known that there'd be lots of people around to help when I

was struggling and that kind of thing.

in some ways I wish I'd known how

intense it would be, and how in some

ways life changed like it was life changing because I sort

of did become a different person. I remember walking out of the

airport doors and my dad thought I was going to keep walking forever because I just

looked more confident and stronger and taller

and was walking differently.

but then in some ways I wish I hadn't known because that is part of

it. It's the unknown, I think in itself

is where we meet God and

where the change comes from.

>> Julia: and do you wish you'd known about the sense of community?

>> Emma: Yeah, I really wish I'd known about the sense of community because I think

I would have been much less hesitant. yeah,

I wish I'd known that I would have,

you know, made some friendships for life and just

had that sense of togetherness with people. I wish

I'd known also that's where I'd find

God. because up until then, I don't think I

had, in that way, that sense of joy and

consolation that comes through people, I think really

shaped me and changed me.

>> Julia: What are you most grateful for?

>> Emma: There's too many things. I think

overall, I'm just. I'm most grateful

that so much of the journey continues

like what we talked about, that it stayed with me,

that there's so much from it that I can live

from and live out of in

daily life, in even

decisions about prayer as you go or

how we lead the team with prayer as you go. All those kinds of things. I

think I'm just so grateful that I had that time. In some

ways, I don't think I'd be in the job that I'm in now as well. I

think stepping into it was a fruit of the

Camino, and,

yeah, there's just so much I'm grateful for.

>> Julia: Well, thank you for joining us.

>> Emma: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I know this episode

is going to stay with me because Emma inspired me to do the

Camino, and she reminded me about how we're always

walking with God. How about you?

We'd love to hear about how Emma's story resonated with you.

And why not also tell us if you're facing an experience you

wish you knew and how you would want to look at it differently. It

might just be something we can help with. You can find out

more about this theme and others at thinkingfaith.org

thank you again for listening, and I hope you'll join me again

next time on Things I Wish I Knew.