This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather than those of Breast Cancer Now.

Today's guest is Kelly Crump, a model, influencer, and secondary breast cancer patient who literally climbs mountains. We cover all sorts of topics in this conversation, from body image and how it changes after breast cancer to helping others by inspiring people to take up physical challenges. Kelly has a really natural, positive mental attitude and natural strength and drive. She talks a lot in this episode about acceptance, accepting that the breast cancer is there, that the news may or may not be good after every scan, but that she can live the life she wants to live in spite of it. I hope you will get as much out of this episode as I did, and I hope you'll feel really inspired to live your life whatever situation breast cancer has put you in.

When Kelly found out at the age of 40 that her cancer had spread, she feared she wouldn't be able to do the things she loves like hiking, running and enjoying the outdoors. But 7 years later, she's just returned from climbing Mount Kilimanjaro. She shares her story on social media to inspire anyone with a similar diagnosis to live life on their own terms, even while living with secondary breast cancer. We'll be talking to Kelly about exercise, positivity, and how she became the first person with active breast cancer to pose with a mastectomy scar in Sports Illustrated Swimsuit magazine. Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

Hi, thank you. Oh, that was so kind. Thank you.

You're welcome. It's great to have you here. So you were first diagnosed with HER2 positive primary breast cancer when you were 38. Could you tell us a bit about how you were diagnosed? I found a lump accidentally while I was laying on the floor and scratching an itch in my left breast, felt something a bit strange, googled what to do when you find a lump in your breast, saw that there's other signs of potential cancer, saw that I should look in the mirror, see if there was any dimpling or puckering, went upstairs to the bathroom, raised my arm, and yeah, saw some dimpling and so booked a GP appointment and next, 3 weeks later I'm diagnosed with breast cancer.

And what treatment, and did you have surgery at that point?

So I had a lumpectomy, I had a sentinel node biopsy, which was all clear, did a cycle of IVF and then started chemotherapy in January of 2018, did six rounds of paclitaxel, Herceptin and carboplatin. lost my hair, all the things that come with it. And then actually I had a recurrence whilst I was on chemotherapy that was found when we were scheduling to have my port taken out. And so in June of 2018, I had a bilateral mastectomy after having that reoccurrence.

So that wasn't a secondary breast cancer at that point, that was a second primary?

Yeah, they called it a reoccurrence at the time. What we now know, looking back at the scans, is there was a tiny pinprick in my neck at the time. And that eventually grew over the years. So technically I was... on their side it was a reoccurrence but really, now when we look at it, it had already metastasised.

Could you tell us about when you found out for definite that it had metastasised and become secondary breast cancer?

Yes, was November of 2019. And yeah, that was... it was a strange time, because I think in the lead up having a primary, I didn't think immediately I was going to die. I know a lot a lot of people do. I just felt like, OK, we're going to get on with this and then we're going to kind of move forward. And when I had that scan and it came back and it was in my lymph nodes mainly, I immediately was asking my oncologist, so how long do I have? How long? And he would not answer. And I'm glad he didn't answer because nobody really knows. But I think at that point in time, I became really worried. I knew the statistics at the time. At that point I thought, oh, this is over. But now we're here. Seven years later.

And people will be able to tell that you've got an accent, you are from the US. But you were in London when you were diagnosed and you've been here for a long time.

Yeah, I've been here for 13 years. I initially moved abroad for work and I lived in Italy before moving to London. I was only planning on being here a few years and I have not left. And I still have, yes, some of my accent, but everyone in America will say that I sound English.

Oh, really?

Yes. So I can't win!

And you mentioned there that you had IVF treatment. You did a round of IVF before you had chemo initially. I'm assuming that was because you had planned to be able to have kids at some point or you wanted to at some point or you might...

At some point, I mean, my husband and I, it was one of those things where they tell you, oh, well, you know, when you start chemotherapy, it might shut down your ovaries, which I had no idea that that was even a thing. And we wanted to have the option. We had enough time in between before I was going to start chemotherapy in January. We had time for one cycle. Everyone told me it was safe. And you know, it had 20 eggs and we have 10 embryos.

Wow.

Yeah, it was very productive.

Yeah. And then what then happened after you were diagnosed with secondary breast cancer with that kind of decision or was the decision taken away from you or is there still an option?

I wouldn't be able to carry. I think my husband and I have discussed it and you know, he says he doesn't want a souvenir. So I think it's on hold. Every year we get the bill for the embryos. And they're living in a really nice place in Chelsea. And it's always, it's really hard because we want to believe that, I mean, you just never know what can happen with treatments and things nowadays. I mean, I've really kind of beat the odds at this point. So you never know.

Oh, it's so hard, Kelly. I had a similar... I had the option to freeze eggs. I didn't have a partner, so I had the option to do a round of IVF before chemo. And I don't know if yours was oestrogen positive.

Yeah, so it's HER2 positive and oestrogen and progesterone positive. So it's called triple positive or Luminal B is also what it's called.

So mine was oestrogen positive, but not HER2 negative. But at the time, which was 2012, so it was a bit before yours, they told me that they didn't know whether doing the IVF process was 100 % safe. They thought it was safe, but they weren't 100% sure. So I was like, okay, I'm not gonna do it. And so I have never had that thing of having the eggs frozen or having the embryo. And I also didn't have a partner through the whole time between my primary and secondary diagnosis, now to be having, to have secondary breast cancer and to have those embryos must be so confusing.

It is. It's a weird feeling. And I think for the most part, I mean, given now that my life has changed so much and I still do a ton, but I also don't feel good for really 14 to 15 days a month. So half of the month, I think it would be very challenging to, especially with my age as well, to have a young child. So I think we've kind of accepted it, but at the same time, we don't wanna give up on it.

Yeah, for sure, yeah. It's a really, really tough one, and it's something that a lot of people face. So I know you've been on various different treatments for secondary breast cancer over the years.

Yeah, yeah!

Is there a way to summarise and tell us what you're on now?

So I'm on Enhertu now. This is my sixth or seventh line of treatments.

Wow.

So for someone... so I did a primary line of treatment that was three drugs. We... I then did some pill chemotherapy after that. And then I started doing the antibody drug conjugate. So, kadcyla, pertuzumab, this, that, whatever. What did I do last year? Sometimes I can't even, sometimes I can't even keep up. I did another pill, chemo, and then I started Enhertu about a year and a half ago.

And didn't you... were you on Enhertu for a while and you stopped it and then you've gone back on it?

Correct, correct. I had 6 cycles and I had developed some pneumonitis, which is inflammation of the lung.

Right.

So I had to stop. And actually in May of last year, I was told that I didn't have any other options. So I said to my oncologist, I said, okay, well, if why don't you give me another month or give me a month or two, I think my lung issue will resolve itself. And then if it does, what if we tested doing the lowest possible dose of Enhertu? Because at the time, there were no other specific drugs for HER2-positive cancer that I could take. I was done with all of them. And there weren't any clinical trials going on at the time. So she did it. She said, OK, and here we are.

Wow. You said that it was in May 2024 that you were at that point where they said there was no more options for you. It was in June 2024 that I met you on a trek for Coppafeel. I remember I was asking you about your treatments you've been on and everything you were telling me as we were walking in the Brecon Beacons in Wales. And you said at that point you were not on any drugs. You were just living in between. I thought, wow, that must be so hard not being, not knowing that your body is just going at its own thing, but actually you were very confident that your lung was gonna recover and that you hoped that you were gonna find out that there was some more treatments for you.

Actually, my... so I had a scan right after that. My scan was actually... I was almost no evidence of disease.

After the trek?

Yes.

Wow.

It was only my lesion and my left lung that was still showing up, but all of my bone mets through my spine and my hips were gone. So Enhertu, and what they've now seen is continues to work in the body for, what she's seen is about 6 months.

Okay, wow, so was continuing to work even though you weren't on it at that point?

Correct.

Amazing!

Yeah, that was amazing. And then I had a scan in August and it had started back up. So we did an extremely low dose, the lowest I think you can possibly go on, it has not been studied, had a chest CT two weeks after to see if it affected my lung and it didn't. So we've kept going.

Do you know what, it's amazing to hear stories like that because I know your cancer is HER2 positive, so it responds really, really well to in HER2, but the campaign that's been going on in the background for the last year or so is for people with HER2 low breast cancers, which means that they have a low level of response to the HER2. They have a low level of expression of the HER2 protein on their cancer. Basically the drug in HER2 is available on the NHS to people with HER2 positive breast cancer, which is why you've been taking it, but it's not been made available, it's not been approved for use in HER2-low patients. However, when we hear you talk... and part of that thing is to do with cost and cost effectiveness and drugs companies and all sorts of battles going on behind the scenes. But part of it is that it can give people an extra average of 6 months of life, I think, with secondary breast cancer. But when we hear you talking about, that you stopped taking it and it still gave you... it was still working and working and working behind the scenes because it keeps on working, it just, to me, it is just so worth it. And even six months, even if it gives someone one month of extra life, it's worth it.
It's not an easy drug. And at the same time, I know a lot of people talk really positively about it. I've known a lot of people as well that it hasn't worked for them. So it's just like anything else. I think the most important thing is like, do we have the option of having options?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

You've been through several lines of treatment, which is when they put you on a course of drugs and then eventually, that drug stops working and then you start what we call a new line of treatment. How does it feel when a drug stops working for you?

I mean, it's very destabilising. I think, you know, I mean, it's unfortunate. It's never something a lot of people... I think think that when a drug stops working, there's this definitive line where you know it stops working. With my cancer, it just slowly starts to grow a little bit more, becomes a little bit more active. And usually we see that, I see that happening in the months prior to us deciding to stop the drug. And that's currently kind of where I am right now within HER2 as well. It destabilises, you don't know how your body's going to react. You have to adapt to new side effects. A lot of times you're not on treatment for maybe a month or two while insurance and everything gets worked out or your oncologist is doing other tests. It does make you go, gosh, is this one, is this gonna be it? Is this gonna be it? So I just try to face it with a positive attitude and it is what it is and maybe this one will be great and kind of you know, just get on with it, but it destabilises. It makes you question everything. And it does usually take me about three months for my body to get used to whatever drug I start taking.

Why did you decide to share your story on social media?

It's so strange. I had a normal Instagram page like everyone else when it started in 2012. And you know, the pandemic happened, more people were online, there was nothing to do. And I asked my followers, you know, what they wanted to know more about, hear more about. And people said, cancer. I said, really? Why, why? What do you want to know? And it was an overwhelming... people wanted me to talk about like my experience with cancer. So I started doing that and it took off from there, which some days I still go, people really wanna hear this? But they do. So that's kind of how it started and I kept it going and then getting messages from people who say that it's helped them or it's motivated them or it's given them more insight into maybe what their friend or family member is going through. So I just keep sharing.

Yeah, do you think that part of it is that, well, two things. One is that they see you active and well and fit and doing physical activities. And two is that they see you looking well and, you know, still enjoying fashion and makeup and all of that stuff and wanting to look good, which I think there's a there's a vision that people have when they don't know much about cancer and particularly secondary breast cancer because they think we're going to have a bald head and we're going to look terrible and we're to be deathly pale and grey skinned and ports coming out of our body and everything. But actually secondary breast cancer doesn't necessarily mean that, does it?

No, you know, everyone is different and everyone wants to when they're going through this, you know, however they wanna show up to the world is fine. For me, I didn't at the time see anybody that I really resonated with in terms of cancer. And yes, in the beginning I felt quite vain. To be honest, I felt like in a way people didn't want to look like themselves or they want to look like they had cancer. And I just didn't want to. And I felt that I had lost so much of myself in the process with my primary diagnosis. And I got really tired of that. And I said, well, I'm just going to be me. These are things I like. And this is how I was before. So I'm just going to keep doing what I like to do. And yeah, I think it has helped. And I think it's OK to say, you want to look nice or if you want to style your hair, if you want to wear makeup, like there's so much more to me than secondary breast cancer. I think that's just, quite boring in a way. So I just decided to be me and embrace the things that I like and do them.

Yeah. And before you had breast cancer, you were working in the fashion industry. That was your career.
Yes.

How has breast cancer, if it has, changed your body image?

I think it was, I thought as well when I was first diagnosed with the primary and going through chemotherapy, I thought I was going to lose a ton of weight. I knew I would be bald. I didn't, I gained a lot of weight. And yeah, it was really hard because I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and recognise who that person was. Then having to make a decision about having a mastectomy and what type of reconstruction and such after already having a diagnosis and having another diagnosis within six months of that. Yeah, I was a little, I was wrecked. It took me a while, but what I've realised is that fitness and taking care of my mental health is what has helped me deal and accept with how my body has changed, but also your body is doing so many amazing things every day. You know, the fact that we're sitting here, we're getting attacked by bugs, really, and we're not sick. We're sick in a different way, but, so I've actually come to appreciate my body and what it's gone through and how it carries me through each and every day.

Absolutely, that resonates with me so much because, I've also put on weight. It's such a myth now that, I mean, people do lose weight with cancer, but it just completely depends what stage you're at, what drugs you're on, everything else, who you are. But for me, it's been cancer, drugs equate to menopause. And I'm also in my 40s, you so you naturally put on weight at this age, but it changes your body. But you also have that thing of my body is so strong, my body has been through so much and you've almost got to kind of look at your body as if it's another person, like a friend who is just going through stuff.

Yeah, and take care of it. And I think I do hear people say, you know, my body betrayed me. I don't use that language and I don't believe in that personally because it's actually doing some, I mean, my body's been through so many, over 120 some sessions of chemotherapy. It's done amazing and I'm still doing things. There's a lot of problems as well, but at the end of the day, I think it's doing a pretty good job.

Let's move on to those physical challenges that you've been putting your body through as well as cancer. So you've just got back from climbing Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania, which is an incredible feat for anyone. But with someone with tumours in their lungs, spine and hips, it's just immense. Tell us about that trip.

Oh, I can't believe I did it. I mean, I can believe I did it, but I can't believe I did it. I had an opportunity to go climb Kilimanjaro with a group of people I did not know at the last minute. So three weeks before I was to depart is when I found out I was going to actually be able to do this. Got there and it was eight days of not showering, sleeping in a tent, you know, walking seven, eight hours a day. But the biggest challenge is the altitude. And my body did great, I really didn't have any issues up until about 5,800 meters, which is, I don't know, something around 19,000 feet. And actually I felt quite strong doing it. It was an amazing experience and I think it just, I wanna do it for myself but I wanna do it for other people to show that if there's things that you want to do, a lot of times you can do them. They might not always be the most comfortable, but there are people out there who have the capabilities and maybe are just a bit scared or fearful or unsure. And I wanted to show people that you can still do some really challenging, hard things.

If someone is really inspired by you to take on a trek or a hike or a really entry-level... yeah, walk, let's say, but they're scared. What would you say to them?

Start slowly. I think a lot of times we all want to just, okay, we're gonna start a new routine, you just really go after it. I think you have to be really conscious of if you haven't worked out in a while or you're not sure, just start slowly, little by little to gain confidence. And I think that's how I started after all of my surgeries and I was nervous. But then I realised, oh wow, I can do this. And I just kept kind of going and going and going. So start slowly, don't overdo it, see how your body reacts, but you're most likely a lot stronger than you realise.

And what was the highlight of your Kilimanjaro trek? Ooh, I think just the fact that I showed up and was there and pretty much okay up until about 5,800 meters where my lips turned blue and I felt really drunk and I almost honestly gave up. I had to speak to a doctor. I was worried that I had gone all this way and I was about to put myself in danger and I was going to have to get airlifted off the summit. But it was I think the highlight was me just being able to do it and complete it and finish it without having any issues. I think that was really reaffirming.

I like how you say "I was almost airlifted off the mountain, but I had no issues"!

Well, it was that moment where you have a wobble, as Brits like to say. I had a pretty big wobble. The photos of me, I just closed up. It was negative 20. And I was just walking super slow and I got there and I was like, get me down. I want to be done. But the whole experience, the Tanzanian people as well.

What got you through that wobble? The doctor sang to me.

Oh.

Yeah. Oh, she was amazing. She's actually done a Coppatrek before, which was "small world"!

Oh, wow.

She just said, listen, this is your summit. This can be your summit. It's fine. I said, how much further? She's like 15, 20 minutes. Is it really 15 minutes?

Yeah.

So I had some sugar, had some water, and I was like, I've come all this way. I just need that stupid photo at the top. And I went, but she sang to me. And I think, you know, a lot of times I'm taking care of other people, but she took care of me, and that's what got me up there. So I think it's all about somebody else believing in you. Sometimes we all need it and we don't always know when we need it. I think people are probably quite scared, especially if you've recently been diagnosed with secondary breast cancer or primary breast cancer or you have a diagnosis that means you have to be careful with certain parts of your body or you perhaps had a surgery for example.

Would you recommend people get medical advice before they do any challenges?

Always. I always say, before you do anything, talk to your doctor. You know, it's like the Ts and Cs. I think a lot of people are scared to talk to their doctors. And I think you need to ask. And most of the time, they're going to go, oh, yeah, you're fine. I mean, every time I was worried about it, they go, yeah, OK. I go scuba diving. I mean, I do lots of things. And I always tell my doctor, and I'll say, are you OK with this? And she'll go, yeah, it's fine. And I'll go onto the ward when I'm having chemotherapy and talk to people and I'll hear them say, oh, I was just diagnosed, I have lung mets and I just don't know if I can walk anymore. And they're upset and I said, talk to your doctor. But just so you know, I've done this and I've done that and I've been okay. Every situation is different. Do what feels comfortable. Everyone's pain threshold is different. But sometimes I think fear is preventing us from so much joy.

And it's so important for patients to see people like you or people like me who are years on and who are doing stuff like making a fun trip or doing a physical challenge. Yeah, you know, I do think sharing your story on social media is really, really important in that sense, because it helps other people think, okay, that could be me in seven years' time.

I think especially I think the language around primary diagnosis now is a lot is much more open. I do not think it's open enough around secondary and metastatic cancer. I think that a lot of that has to do with the way treatments have evolved over the years. But a lot of people don't even know when I tell them, they go, what is that? There's a lot that needs to get out there. And it's not about primary and secondary are different. They're extremely similar. But there is a lot of difference and yeah, there's a lot of life to live. And I think when you first hear those kind of words, you go, I'm gonna die. How long do I have? But it is changing and I think that is a positive thing, but more people need to come out and speak openly about it. What do you think needs to be said, what do you want to put out there? Everybody's different. However you want to live, live that way. But if for some reason you want to live a different way, or you want to, you know, do things that you've always dreamed about, or you want to be active, or whatever it is you want to do in life, if you really want it, most likely you can do it. Don't be so scared of that diagnosis and that word. It doesn't have to define you if you don't want it to. And there is a lot of positive things happening within treatment lines, but also within the community. And if you don't see or know people that you resonate with, they're probably somewhere online.

You advocate for having a positive mental attitude. Has that always been your outlook or was that something that changed at some point along the way with cancer?

No, I've always been like this. I think that was part of the reason why I was able to move abroad and with work because I was constantly problem solving within different countries and you know, anything, when things go wrong, like I'm the person that people call because I can usually problem solve, figure something out and then have a solution that works. So I've always had this mindset. I kind of just go and try to push through something and get it done and resolved.

Yeah. It's all starting to make sense now from what I know of you because you participate in a lot of the Coppafeel treks with Giovanna Fletcher to raise money for Coppafeel, the young person's breast cancer awareness charity. And on those treks, you act as a kind of floater going between the different groups and sort of motivating people?

Yeah, they've now renamed it to be Vice Captain. Vice Captain, basically there to help support and to ensure that the people trekking have the best possible experience, which yes, you can yell and scream and play music, but really what I also do is, listen to people's stories and talk about things that I've been through and what they've been through and give any advice or give any support, give hugs. I mean, there's usually someone breaking down. There's usually someone scared. There's usually someone worried that they're going to be the slowest walker they can't do it. So I'm there to try to help and help facilitate their experience, but also let them know that, you you can do these things, but let's get in the right mindset.

Where do you think your strength comes from? I think I grew up in a pretty chaotic, traumatic household. And I think from a young age, I knew that I had to kind of take care of myself. So I've always been very independent. I've done a ton of therapy. And I think that in a way actually prepared me for going through many other things in my life, but also going through cancer and living with cancer. The main thing I take away is, you can control your destiny and where you end up and things that happen to you don't have to define you. It might take a lot of work, you know, mentally, but I think it, like I said, it has prepared me for being able to deal with this and then allowing me to talk about it. So hopefully I can help somebody else.

We were talking before we started recording about how tired you do feel and how much sleep you need to get, which is the same for me. But you also love doing those physical challenges, which so do I. And I find that one of the times I feel is when I feel physically strong. When my body, and for me, I could have a few weeks where I just feel really strong and I can do lots of physical exercise and I feel great and I feel back to my 20 year old self where I was swimming and running and everything else. But then it hits you. And then I'm just like, I can't move and I just need to stay in bed and I feel like a cancer patient. Where do you lie on that spectrum and how do you get through the physical challenges of breast cancer?

Yeah, I mean, great question. I think currently I have an infusion of Enhertu every three weeks. So basically the day of infusion, sometimes I feel okay, sometimes I don't, but usually for seven, at least seven days, I don't do anything, even if I kind of feel okay. Most of time I don't feel okay. And then I slowly start to almost like come out of that cocoon of the couch and slowly start doing things in week two, building up and then week three, which is what I'm currently in, is like the week where I feel like I can do anything. I've got energy, you know, and then all of a sudden on Sunday night, instead of being anxious about going back to work, I mean, it is going to work. I know I'm gonna feel bad again. And I think that is mentally taxing, where you have to prepare yourself and you probably, it's like, I know I'm gonna feel bad. I'm trying not to focus on it. And then when you feel bad, is, you can't get off the couch. You don't wanna brush your hair. I mean, I don't cook food. I mean, I'm pretty incapacitated, I know some people go, "yeah, but you just climbed Kilimanjaro"... Well, I did it during, I actually skipped a round; I have to time everything around how I'm going to feel. So scheduling can be very, very difficult. And it's hard, it's mentally taxing and I get anxious. Because there's nothing worse than sitting on a couch and watching people run by the house. And all you want to do is run and be outside and you feel, you know, if you move your head, you're dizzy and sick.

Yeah. Because you know that's not you. The you is the person that's out there running, running past the house and you have to be the one who's on the sofa that day. It takes away the you-ness of you, doesn't it sometimes?

Yeah. It's almost like an out-of-body experience in a way. But then it's also two weeks later, you you're pinging off the walls and getting so much done and you feel mentally and physically great. And then you start all over again. So it's like three weeks of Groundhog Day.

It's great that you do have those times when you're really, really up because some people through their treatment, they're just constantly, you know, either very, very low or maybe middling, but never really have that time when they feel that energy.

Well for me, being on an infusion drug versus a pill drug is very different. Infusion, if you're having it every three weeks, it tends to be that same pattern of don't feel good, you slowly feel better, you feel really great, you start again. When you're taking chemotherapy in a pill form, which I've done before, it's constant fatigue. It's a different level. It doesn't go as intense the first week. It's just constant. And that is very hard too. Emma, my friend and I, we were debating about would you rather have an infusion every three weeks and go through that type of cycle? Or would you rather take a pill every day and always be fatigued? I don't know the answer to that one yet.

Emma Lawrence, your friend who was also a very good friend and supporter of Breast Cancer Now. She did some Instagram lives on Breast Cancer Now's social media accounts and she sadly died a year or so ago. She was a good friend of yours. How does it affect you when someone dies from the same illness that you have, secondary breast cancer?

Every time I see someone pass, I see a pattern. So I think you start to recognise the pattern and I think I'm just aware of, you know, where am I in that cycle? But also prepare my friends and family for what it could be like if that happens. Because I think a lot of people don't actually talk about death, friends-and-family-wise. They say, oh, don't be so morbid. But at the same time, I think we need to talk about it more and understand it so that they're prepared for it. Because we only know really death from cancer and things from movies. You see this person living out like, oh, I've been given six months live and I go travel the world. Then all of a sudden, they're surrounded by... There's a lot of different ways and I think it's been slightly romanticised. So I think it's become more of a reality for my friends and family in terms of how things can tend to go when you're dealing with secondary breast cancer.

Yeah. This is why I liked the film, I loved the film, We Live in Time.

Oh, I haven't watched that one yet.

Out at the start of 2025, end of 2024. I don't want to give spoilers away, it is a film about cancer, but shows it in a light that's more similar to you and I in the sense of someone who's really living their life, doing the things that they want to do. And a lot of cancer films, they're all about the chemo and the hair loss and the shaving the head and all of that stuff. And there is some of that, but you also see someone carrying on doing their job.

Yeah.

Which I think is something that a lot of people do because they need to continue having that purpose. They don't want to be just a cancer patient.

Yeah. I think it's really interesting. All I knew about cancer was actually from movies. And there are some things that are accurate, but there's a lot of things that aren't covered and there's some things that aren't accurate. And I think that's why it's so important to talk about our experiences because it shows the other side that's not shown always in the media. And if we don't talk about it, the media is not going to change either.

You had a really successful career in fashion before your diagnosis, but you've had to give that up since going through your treatment. How does it feel giving up your career?

It sucks. Let's just be honest, it sucks. It's funny. People always go, oh, it must be so nice. Like, you know, not working. It's horrible. You know, my first job was when I was 13 years old. I became a FIFA referee. I started refereeing football games. I've always worked. I've always worked really hard. I've used that probably as a way of defining myself. Always planned on going back. It was always like, OK. I finished these six cycles, gonna wait like two months, go back to work, go back to work, go back to work. And then I just kept getting diagnosed. And the roles that I've been in are not roles where I can pop... I can't pop in and out, can't go, oh, I can work for two days here and then two days there. I was running really big projects. I had a team of people. Yeah, it's strange. But at the same time, I think volunteering on the treks gives me a purpose. Speaking openly about how I'm living with a secondary breast cancer gives me purpose. I've just had to redefine my life. And it's not defined by cancer, it's just I'm living with this disease.

What would you say is your purpose now?

Speaking openly and honestly about my experiences with living with secondary breast cancer in the hope that I either can educate, empower, or inspire someone else who is affected by it or going through treatments and to make it easier to talk about. Let's just talk about it. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. Things I think... you look back 20, 30 years ago, it wasn't talked about because it, you know, it was, it was most likely, you know, a death sentence. It's not that way anymore. It doesn't mean that people aren't suffering. But, you know, times have changed, I think, and as we're more open about so many other topics, I think this needs to be another one that we just talk openly about. Because that's why you help another person or you help another person feel less alone.

When people go through secondary breast cancer, a lot of people have a scan every three months to just check in regularly, see how they're going. And lots of people on social media, when they have, if they get a good scan, they might share it on social media. And obviously lots of people don't share things on social media. That's totally fine. But the people who do sometimes will say, I've had a great scan. That means I've got three months where I can just live my life. Now you don't do that. Tell us why.

Gosh, that is just so exhausting. No, the reason I don't do that, and I think in the beginning, you get on there and you see the hashtag scanxiety, and everybody's anxious, and I don't know about my scan results, and then you live for three months and you wait. That's not a way to live. I want to do so much more than that. And for me, you know, thinking that, okay, am I going to be here in five years when I was first diagnosed? Like, that's just a day or days wasted worrying about something that actually you have very little control over. And that was already something I was really into when I was working. It's about control what you can control. So I decided I didn't want to spend time worrying about that, wanted to be more present in the moment. And as I gained confidence having living with what I'm living with, I just started to plan more and realized that I needed things to work towards beyond the three months. It's not a way to live for me. And I get it. It is anxiety inducing. But I also, it's not about hoping your scan's gonna be okay. I think it's about being believing that no matter what, like something will work out. And I think that belief can carry you through. And I mean, don't waste your, don't waste time on something that you can't control.

Yeah, so it's not about being complacent and being like, if my scan is good, then I can do this, this and this, and I can do this holiday. It's about doing it anyway, even if you get some bad news saying, okay, this is what I can do with that time.

Exactly. I mean, I think Emma at one point in time was saying she wanted to go skiing in Japan. She was like, I just don't know. I mean, at the time she had tubes coming out of her kidneys and she had all sorts of problems. She goes, it's a year away, I go, so what? Okay, if you don't go, you don't go. Would you rather book it and for some reason you can't go at the last minute or would you rather be a year from now going, oh, I'm fine, I could have gone, I didn't go? So I think it's putting it into perspective, like what would you feel like you would want more? But I think, yeah, now I plan, I don't think I can get more than five years out. Like it slowly moved. For a while it was three months, then it six months, then it was a year. And now it's like two years, I think, you know, could it be five? That's kind of what I'm working towards. I can't go beyond five, I think it is beyond that is hard for me. Let me say that I worry. I do worry. I just don't let it overcome each and every day. I think I wake up every day and go, okay, today I have a choice. How am I feeling? Do I wanna kind of be positive and get on with it or do I just wanna accept like I am in a mood, I don't feel good, this is horrible, I'm gonna have a bad day. And I think it's that, it's in that, it's the accepting when you don't feel good, when you feel anxious, when you feel sad, when you feel angry about the situation, you have to accept it and let it be and let it out. Because if you're kind of going, oh, I'm not anxious, I'm not anxious, oh, it's gonna come out and it's actually like gonna make everything make everything worse. So I say, accept the days when you don't feel good and you are worried and you are scared and you are angry, let it out. Don't keep it inside because it will come out probably at the wrong time. And the other thing is, you know, build up your mental strength, whether it's, you know, journaling, you know, gratitude journals, I do that. I do meditate to help. And some days I'm really good at it and some days I'm absolutely horrible. But that has helped me process the emotions. And I think any type of physical exercise, and it doesn't have to be intense, it can be walking, getting out, being outside and walking can help relieve that anxiety. And that's how I try to manage mine.

Yes. And speaking of courage, You did a swimwear shoot for Sports Illustrated Swimsuit a few years ago with your mastectomy scars. Can you tell us about that?

Yeah, that was not planned. That moment I'm very proud of. It was not something that we thought about. It was not pre-planned. It was just this thing where I was trying on this swimsuit that ended up having one side of it missing. And it ended up looking good. Then myself and the editor of Sports Illustrated, MJ Day, said, you know, what are you comfortable sharing on your body? Like, is it OK if we show your port scar? And she said someone had showed their port scar a couple of years ago, and it was really powerful. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'll show any scar. And she kind of looked at me like, really? I was like, she said that would be really empowering to a lot of people. And I said, I am fine with it, you know, we can mess around, play around with it. And the next day they came up and said, actually, MJ really wants to shoot that suit. Are you still okay with this? And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm okay. And we did it. And actually that was the suit that I think I felt the most comfortable in. And all I could think about was the fact that like, how could this help someone? And you see photo shoots of people with mastectomy scars. And I always felt like a lot of them I saw were quite black and white and sad or just quite dark. And that's just not my personality. And I kind of was like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it on the platform that I believe in. And that embodies me. And that's how it happens. And I was really nervous when it came out. I didn't know how people would react to be honest. And the reaction was amazing. And the amount of people that said to me, you know, I now view my body differently because of that photo is exactly why I did it.

Wow. Amazing.

So the most DM'd question I get is, hi, thank you for your story. You inspire me every day. But can I ask you what size your implants are?

Oh, really?

Yes, you would not believe. People tell me that they take the photo in to their surgeons to show them.
Wow, that's amazing. But that's really cool because I never had a mastectomy. Fortunately, I didn't need to have one at the time. I had a wide local excision, which is a much smaller operation. But I know that they show you, sometimes you get shown a brochure of you know, this is what your scars might look like and this is what your breasts might look like afterwards. But actually you putting something out there on the internet that looks great, you know, you look fantastic. It makes sense that someone would look at that and think, okay, I'm going to take this to my doctor and ask for that, ask for a Kelly.

Ask for a Kelly.

Yeah.

So that's, that's my most DM'd question. And I'm just very thankful and grateful that people accepted it, but that's... You know, you can, cancer's not sexy, but you can still be sexy. And I don't think there's anything, there's nothing wrong with that. I think we have to put that out there. Because it, you know, menopause, surgery, drugs, hair loss, body changes, like you don't feel sexy. You know, so sometimes, you know, you have to be accepting of your body and see that it is sexy and it is okay.
Okay. Yeah. Do you have any tips for kind of fake it till you make it in terms of feeling sexy and feeling better about yourself even when you don't feel that way?

I think it first comes with acceptance. Acceptance of what's happened to you and your body and where you are in that moment. I think when you can accept what has happened, then you can see it for what it is. And you're also not holding on to the past of I used to look like X or my hair used to be X or my body used to be X. It's going no, this is I'm here right now. I accept and I'm strong. I'm capable and you know my body's doing so many great things. I'm gonna show it off. I'm gonna be proud of it. The acceptance is a huge part, huge part. And then I think, again, going and having a friendly conversation with yourself as if it was your friend, because I've heard people talk about their bodies as... I've heard some really horrible, horrible things. And I said, would you say that to your friend? No, never. OK, well, stop saying it to yourself. So be mindful of also what you are saying internally to yourself. And then, you know, put something on that you love. You know, that's faking it. You know, if you like putting on makeup, put on makeup. If you like fixing your hair, fix your hair. Sometimes we need that boost to also kind of get us over that hump of negativity that maybe that we feel.

I'd like to finish with the question we're asking everyone on this podcast. Breast Cancer Now's vision is that by 2050, everyone diagnosed with breast cancer will not only live, but be supported to live well. What does it mean to you to live well?

Living well for me means being in the moment, spending time with friends, family, exercising, being outdoors, and being able to be myself. Anything outside of that is not living for me personally. I would much rather have kind of a really intense time and it be shorter than a time where I'm not able to be me or do the things that I like to do. That doesn't matter. I'm quality over quantity.

Got it. Got it. Finally, where can people find out more about you?

You can find me on Instagram @itskellycrump, where I basically just show you my day-to-day life unfiltered.

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