00:01.80
alexei sayle
Hello everybody, welcome to episode 19.

00:03.29
Talal K
Strong star, Alexi, with a, uh... Sorry.

00:08.56
alexei sayle
Well, it's the internet. I'll start again. ah you're going to keep Hello, if hey, hey, hey, everybody.

00:13.78
Talal K
Yeah!

00:14.78
alexei sayle
Hey, welcome to the morning crew on Alexi's sell podcast. we've Today we've got the bulldozer.

00:19.83
Talal K
Yeah!

00:21.33
alexei sayle
Hey, bulldozer. Hi, Alexi. We've got rat face. Hi, Alexi. We've got the whole crew here. Woo, woo, woo, woo.

00:30.40
Talal K
blah blah blah

00:32.64
alexei sayle
I used to do the Steve Wright show, and the first thing you would... but don't know if you can say this, with you but you'd come into the studio and you'd scream at how fat he got.

00:45.04
alexei sayle
And then after that, you'd have to you know have to plug whatever nonsense you were plugging. any Anyway, i am today we've got a guest who makes us all look bad, really, who's moral courage and ah physical...

00:52.34
Talal K
Oh, that's where the good old days.

01:02.90
alexei sayle
ah physical and moral courage, I guess. And is that a dog in the background?

01:08.51
Victoria Rose
it It is.

01:08.77
alexei sayle
Is...

01:10.53
Victoria Rose
You see, he's just got on the bed.

01:10.75
alexei sayle
is

01:14.48
alexei sayle
Dr. Victoria Rose, um recently back from Gaza, plastic surgeon. And, well, I guess tell us about yourself, really. um But you are you are you are the embodiment of a living saint.

01:29.73
alexei sayle
And of um cut this I've got this pain in my shoulder, which we can talk about later.

01:34.50
Victoria Rose
we could talk about later.

01:35.73
alexei sayle
Yeah.

01:37.17
Victoria Rose
um Yeah, so i'm ah I'm a plastic surgeon. um if I've actually been a doctor this August for 30 years, so I'm feeling a bit a bit old now.

01:45.47
alexei sayle
Yes.

01:48.28
Victoria Rose
um Yeah, so I think most people think when I say I'm a plastic surgeon that I do tit jobs and facelifts, but actually the bulk of plastic surgery that we do particularly in the NHS, is reconstruction. And that's that's what we've been doing in Gaza.

02:04.65
Victoria Rose
And I've sort of been involved with a very small charity called Ideals for a very long time. And um they've been going to Gaza for a very long time. But since since the war started, or since this war started, the charity registered itself as an emergency medical team.

02:15.36
Talal K
Thank you.

02:23.04
Victoria Rose
And I've been on three trips back to Gaza with them to try and do some reconstruction surgery.

02:29.90
alexei sayle
I mean, how physically does that work? i mean, what is the process by which you actually go there? I mean, where do you fly to and stuff?

02:38.41
Victoria Rose
So when we before they took the RAFA border, it was really nice. We used to fly to Cairo and you could hire your own minibus and you could fill it with whatever you could fit in it.

02:50.71
Victoria Rose
And then you would join the United Nations convoy of minibuses. So all the charities would have one or two minibuses and we'd all drive down through the Sinai Desert to the RAFA border.

03:02.84
Victoria Rose
And then you'd get all your bags out. There's always a bit of waiting around at the Egyptian side just to do all the passport checks. But once you were through, you were through.

03:10.30
Talal K
Yeah.

03:12.24
Victoria Rose
And then some but one of our colleagues in Gaza would pick us up and take us in all the baggage to to whichever hospital we were working at. And it was it was really, compared to what's happened since, it was really easy and very nice.

03:26.17
Victoria Rose
And we managed to get a lot of kit to them. And then in the May of 24, Israel took Rafa and closed that border.

03:38.02
Victoria Rose
So then you had to enter through Israel. which meant that you had to apply to the United Nations to get a seat on a bus now. So there was one bus that went in on a Tuesday and a Thursday and one that came out.

03:51.41
Victoria Rose
And there were 25 seats on the bus. So you would apply for a seat or the charity would apply for our seats. And they would be told about two weeks before that we had a seat. And then we'd all fly to Amman.

04:04.63
Victoria Rose
And the night before we were due to leave, we'd get approval as to whether or not Kogat would let us in. And if Kogat said you could come in, you were then allowed to make your way to the bus pickup spot at the Seventh Circle in Amman.

04:20.13
Victoria Rose
You're only allowed to take one bag with you. It's 23 kilos. You're not allowed to take any medical equipment. You're not allowed to take you're only allowed to take one mobile phone, one laptop, one iPad.

04:32.77
Victoria Rose
um And then you've got to have your own um place to stay when you get there. You're not allowed to stay at the hospitals. You've got to have your own driver 24 seven in case you need to evacuate. You've got your own sat phone and your own Garmin.

04:47.41
Victoria Rose
So they brought in all of these ridiculous stuff. rules and you've got to stay there for a month you' you're not allowed to go in for under a month so so it was started to become really difficult for us to go but we carried on and then you get you get from Amman to the King Hussein Bridge or the um uh the the Jordanian crossing the Allenby Bridge and then you get off

05:11.53
alexei sayle
into the restaurant.

05:12.98
Victoria Rose
Yeah, you get off, your bags are checked by the Jordan officials. Then you get back on the bus, then you drive a couple of hundred metres. Then you get off the bus, all your bags are taken off you by the Israeli ah customs guys.

05:25.61
Victoria Rose
And then there's a lot of waiting around. Eventually you get your bags back and then you get on the Israeli bus. And it's a three hour journey all the way through Israel, right down to i mean, virtually down to Egypt, you're driving um to cross at a point called Kerem Shalom.

05:42.23
Victoria Rose
which is, it is it is basically next door to Rafa. um You're not allowed to get off the bus at all because you don't have a visa for Israel because they won't give you on if you go into Gaza.

05:54.64
Victoria Rose
So there's a police escort in front of you and a Koga escort behind to make sure you don't get off the bus. Then when you get to Kerim Shalom, you're decanted into a UN armoured vehicle. So about seven UN armoured vehicles come and pick you up.

06:11.48
Victoria Rose
You get all your crap off the bus, put it in the armoured vehicles. You get stab vest and tin hat. You get in the UN vehicle and they drive you through the border Derabella, which is sort mid-Solom.

06:26.13
Victoria Rose
mid-level Gaza and that's where OCHA has its training centre and you're all deposited there and then your respective teams pick you up from there and take you to whichever hospital you're going to. Yeah.

06:37.16
alexei sayle
I mean, people have often talked about, you know, medical, you know, MAP is the main medical charity that I work with, obviously.

06:43.09
Victoria Rose
yeah

06:44.50
alexei sayle
But they've talked about, you know, they used to talk about the vitality and the, um you know, just that even though despite the oppression, know, the wonderful...

06:55.91
alexei sayle
energy that you found in Gaza. I mean, it's also, it's sort of, it's those names, isn't it? Like saying Rafa or, you know, D.A.R. Bala or, you know, they're just different parts of rubble, aren't they, really, that you're referring to?

07:09.16
alexei sayle
No, they're not places with distinct identities.

07:10.77
Victoria Rose
No, no, Derabell has held on to a bit more of its infrastructure, I think, just because, but that's just because a lot of the UN, well, the UN offices were there.

07:16.83
alexei sayle
Right.

07:19.54
alexei sayle
Work their way around. Yeah. Yeah.

07:22.55
Victoria Rose
So that's where OCHA is. That's where UNRWA, MSF have got a big base there. And I think it's been harder for Israel to to hit that.

07:30.83
alexei sayle
Yeah.

07:31.04
Victoria Rose
But the rest, the rest of it is is rubble. I mean, when we first went in the march, It was bad. But when we went in the August, the difference was striking. I mean, it was like a something out of a film, like going across the surface of the moon. that We didn't see any sign of life or a single building for about 15 minutes as we drove up at the Saladin Road.

07:54.21
Victoria Rose
And that road we'd driven in the march and there'd been people running around and some of the farms were still, you know, trying ah trying to work. So what's happened in in that time frame is just incredible.

08:06.45
Victoria Rose
I mean, that it's 70% of every part of their infrastructure has been raised to the ground.

08:13.57
alexei sayle
Yeah, and I'm just going to shut the cat up. Really?

08:20.80
Talal K
Hello, elf. That is... oh and i Well, let's wait for Alexia and I'll start her.

08:33.63
Victoria Rose
Hello, Fletch.

08:35.40
Talal K
Both of you having creatures.

08:36.90
Victoria Rose
I

08:38.99
Talal K
And I've got a builder next door hammering, like, on the wall ah behind me.

08:41.75
alexei sayle
right

08:43.04
Talal K
It's all kicking off here.

08:43.90
alexei sayle
this is not

08:45.48
Talal K
Um...

08:45.61
alexei sayle
This is not legacy media. Did you see I didn't have my trousers on either.

08:51.51
Victoria Rose
missed that.

08:52.50
Talal K
I missed it too.

08:54.45
alexei sayle
I've got underpants on.

08:55.03
Victoria Rose
Yeah, it's really hot, isn't it, in London now, or in the UK?

08:58.19
alexei sayle
Yeah, i mean, we're in the basement, so so it's relatively cool, but yeah. ah Yes, it was really hot yesterday. um Where were Yeah, I mean, i mean i how much are you... and Because I know...

09:15.19
alexei sayle
NHS workers are have been constrained was that UK liars for Israel are very keen on depressing...

09:21.63
Victoria Rose
Yeah, that they've they've take yeah they've they've taken one of my friends to court. ah them They reported him to the GMC on ah on a really amazing claim from um a woman who who was Jewish, who said that she although she'd never met him or been treated by him, she felt that if she had to be treated by him, he would be anti-Semitic.

09:47.50
Victoria Rose
And that actually that that actually made Because if you refer one of us to the GMC, they have to look into it.

09:47.64
Talal K
Oh, yeah.

09:53.62
alexei sayle
Yes.

09:53.87
Victoria Rose
So he yeah he actually got that sort of, there's a GMC inquiry against you.

09:58.60
alexei sayle
Yeah.

09:58.62
Victoria Rose
He had to get all of us to write statements about his character to support him. You know, it's just hassle.

10:04.05
alexei sayle
Yeah.

10:04.77
Victoria Rose
I mean, although we all knew it wasn't going to go anywhere, as he said, it's just the...

10:09.05
alexei sayle
It ties people up.

10:09.47
Victoria Rose
It's just...

10:09.93
alexei sayle
I mean, they do that with map as well, you know.

10:10.23
Victoria Rose
Yeah, it's just...

10:12.19
alexei sayle
Yeah.

10:12.21
Victoria Rose
Yeah, you've just got more bureaucracy to deal with.

10:14.65
alexei sayle
Yeah.

10:14.65
Victoria Rose
so And then they reported him to the Charity Commission as well.

10:15.39
alexei sayle
And then.

10:17.85
Victoria Rose
So that was, you know, another...

10:19.52
alexei sayle
Yeah, I know they are under investigation. mean, the Charity Commission will be useless.

10:23.16
Victoria Rose
ah hope I hope they're under investigat investigation.

10:24.99
alexei sayle
They are, but you know whether anything will come of it is highly unlikely. I mean, they are the most evil people in many ways. I think it's poisonous group of monsters.

10:36.15
Victoria Rose
I know, it's amazing. It's amazing that they get funding to do what they do, but...

10:40.68
alexei sayle
Well, not really amazing when you think of what the project is.

10:44.15
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

10:46.53
alexei sayle
the So, um i mean duke I mean, this is, I mean i suppose we'll get down to the specifics. I mean, this is, I mean, the the the eradication of Gaza is part of a, it's a project. i mean, it's the and end goal is to is to either kill everybody or drive them out of,

11:08.37
alexei sayle
Gaza, don't you think? I mean, I'm not sure.

11:10.31
Victoria Rose
That's, yeah, I mean, that certainly seems to be what they're doing. And I think now quite a few of them have actually come out in, um you know, national publications and TV and other media outlets and and said that.

11:25.18
Victoria Rose
I don't know whether you saw that article by that that woman in The Guardian and she picked up 20 bits of media where one of one or other of a high level

11:25.99
Talal K
Hmm.

11:37.46
Victoria Rose
um government figures in israel had said that they wanted you know not a single life left in gaza wanted all of them dead and it is there's she stopped after 20 because she said she's you know got another job to do um but yeah so so

11:43.77
alexei sayle
Right.

11:49.98
alexei sayle
ah Right.

11:52.34
Talal K
Yeah, there there was even there was even that one who said, just like Hitler wanted to do with the Jews we and eradicate the Jews, i want we should do we want to clear Gaza of all Muslims.

12:08.73
Talal K
It's like comparing their actions directly to Hitler.

12:10.05
alexei sayle
Yeah.

12:11.14
Victoria Rose
Yeah, I mean, it's about...

12:13.29
Talal K
And it's like, you make it you know making the Hitler comparison is ah is such a cheap thing, but you make it you put it there like that.

12:21.55
Victoria Rose
yeah so Yeah, so her name was Awa Madawi, and she published it in the...

12:22.45
Talal K
Mm-hmm.

12:25.12
alexei sayle
I know she's good, yeah.

12:26.01
Victoria Rose
Yeah, and and there there were things in there, like, you know, a place where no human being can exist and flat and flatten everything in Gaza, just like Auschwitz.

12:33.14
alexei sayle
Yeah.

12:36.95
alexei sayle
Yeah.

12:37.07
Victoria Rose
I mean, so so you... you It's very difficult to now say that they're not, that's not their intention because they've sort of let the cat out of the bag.

12:43.51
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, what what to go back to the start, then, what propelled... I mean... What propelled you to, I mean, your job must be difficult enough as it is really.

12:55.80
alexei sayle
What propelled you to then go to a war zone? And where is it infinitely more difficult?

12:59.07
Victoria Rose
ah Well, it wasn't, it when we first, when I first went, it was 2018. it wasn't really a war zone. And I went really, ah to to help my orthopedic colleagues.

13:11.65
Victoria Rose
um Because I work, that the team that I go with, so Graham, who's the guy that I go with, I work with him in the NHS. We work at King's College together.

13:18.85
Talal K
Thank you.

13:20.48
Victoria Rose
and um And he's been going since, you know, 2009, trying to train local guards and doctors and orthopaedic techniques and the issue that the doctors in gaza have got is because of the way they're occupied or have have been occupied most of them when they apply for permits most of the doctors when they apply for a permit to to leave gaza to come to say england for a conference or a training course it gets denied and so to put that in perspective

13:53.51
Victoria Rose
In the UK, all of our plastic surgeons have to go to international meetings as part of their training. It's one of the things that they won't accredit. They won't be ah able to take a consultant's post unless they show that they've had this continual professional development.

14:10.40
Victoria Rose
And that will involve going either abroad for a period of time to train in another country or engaging in international meetings. And obviously, Israel stopped the guards and doctors doing that. So it kind of stunted their ability to to sort of grow their healthcare care service. So Graham's main aim was to to try and combat that.

14:32.55
Victoria Rose
And he actually managed to get two of them back to the UK to train with us. And then he started sending us there to train them. And I went to start a plastics training program. So that was what I was trying to do and i I got a Garzan surgeon to come back to the yeah UK and train with me and he was with me for two years um and so consequently you become good friends you know and I know his wife and his kids they've been around to my house my other half knows them really well you know he's cook them dinner and and then suddenly you've got ah someone very you've got a real personal face on it and so when when the war started we were still in touch and up until that point he'd been sending me pictures of difficult operations that he was thinking of doing and we were looking at them at kings and giving him some advice and then suddenly in the October the pictures were you know little kids where he's saying to me I don't know what to do other than amputate this seven-year-old's leg and I was like oh my god

15:08.68
alexei sayle
Mm-hmm.

15:31.17
Victoria Rose
You know, he's just become the consultant level. He's got no one else really out there because he's the only plastic surgeon. So I said to Philip my other half, you know, in the kitchen.

15:43.25
Victoria Rose
I think I'm going to have to go to Gaza and give Ahmed a hand. and And there was a moment of, don't be so fucking stupid.

15:49.15
alexei sayle
Ha ha ha.

15:49.83
Victoria Rose
but But then there was a moment of ah he could actually see that, although that was really stupid, that that was needed. and And, you know, they all resisted it a lot when we first went back in the march.

15:58.96
Talal K
Mm-hmm.

16:02.69
Victoria Rose
But I think it it it was very hard for them. They'd all met him. It was very hard for them to say, you can't go. And then obviously when we get out there, and they can see what we're doing, it makes it even you know even more compelling to go back.

16:20.29
alexei sayle
And so I mean, so so how many times, you've been there three times and you've seen a particularly a precipitate kind of, yeah.

16:24.78
Victoria Rose
Three times, yeah.

16:29.44
Victoria Rose
Yeah, I mean, it's just got worse and worse. every Every time I leave, I keep it, I think it can't get any worse. And I said that when we left in in June, it can't get any worse. And then they cut the internet. And I was like, Jesus, I didn't even think they could do that.

16:43.40
Victoria Rose
But um in court of course, they can do that.

16:44.15
Talal K
Mm-hmm.

16:44.20
alexei sayle
Yeah.

16:45.64
Victoria Rose
So yeah, so I mean, it it is I'm, you know, we're due to go back in October.

16:45.79
alexei sayle
Yeah, they can do whatever they want, really.

16:52.45
Victoria Rose
And I keep hoping that we've had some sort of change in the state of play by then. But Because if we haven't, I can't imagine what it's going to be like.

17:03.27
alexei sayle
No. So, I mean, so what's the, I mean, i mean, what's, what, what is your, your day-to-day activity then when you are there?

17:11.83
Victoria Rose
So we we have been based for the last two times at the NASA Medical Complex. um We were supposed to be at the European Gaza in May when we went back, but on the day that we got there, they started bombing it. so So that sort of scuppered our plans and and we decanted to NASA.

17:31.03
Victoria Rose
um But NASA's got sort of a theatre or it's got two theatres that are dedicated to orthopaedic and plastics and they're next to each other on the ground floor and we normally go and take those over.

17:42.39
Victoria Rose
And the the way that we work is we We do work really closely with MAP because we we were partnered with them before the war. We used to be their sort of surgical arm. They supported our projects, um funded a lot of it, actually.

17:54.43
Talal K
Thank you.

17:57.06
Victoria Rose
um And so we we often team up with the MAP surgeons so that we've got a couple of orthopaedic surgeons, plastic surgeons and an anaesthetist so that we can run the theatre.

18:08.13
Victoria Rose
um And we normally ah go to to NASA and set up there and just run a theatre nonstop from the moment we get there until the moment we leave. And then our Palestinian colleagues sort of join us. So the nurses that we've worked with for years will come and and work with us and and other doctors that we've known come and come and work with us. And we just get through the backlog, really.

18:30.72
Victoria Rose
Whoever they've got in the hospital, we whoever comes in through accident emergency, we see people. And we just try and get through as much as we can. Last time we were doing about 13 cases each day, 10 to 13. Yeah.

18:45.45
Victoria Rose
and

18:46.21
Talal K
like surgeries

18:47.51
Victoria Rose
Yeah. Yeah.

18:49.98
alexei sayle
And I know you...

18:50.08
Talal K
and you've got dwinling dwindling supplies and and resources.

18:50.70
alexei sayle
you

18:53.99
Victoria Rose
yeah I mean, it it was tricky. I mean, I'm not going to last. It was a bit like scrap heat challenge for for most of it. But yeah. you can't, you you can't not sort of keep going and, you know, bit bits and pieces that filter through to you in drips and drabs.

19:10.86
Victoria Rose
So, you know, what you, we haven't gotten what we, we have got and you sort of try and be as frugal as you can. But a lot of it is getting them into a sort of clean environment, trying to get the wounds clean.

19:24.56
Victoria Rose
um it's It's that sort of thing. And then, you know, fixing bones and trying to reconstruct the skin. But is getting harder and harder. We've got, when we left in the, in June, we had no analgesia. So we had this terrible situation where we would operate on people and then you'd take them into the recovery area and just have to listen to them screaming in pain because we didn't have any painkillers.

19:47.77
Victoria Rose
um And that's hard when it's kids. That's really hard when it's kids. Yeah. And, you know, and and a lot, well, I'd say that more than 50% of the list was kids. The first six people, it was done in age order.

20:00.05
Victoria Rose
So the first six would be under the age of 14 every day. and And none of them had any painkiller. And then you, you know, we started to run out of antibiotics and intravenous saline, just sort of stuff that you would never imagine you couldn't couldn't source in a hospital.

20:18.17
Victoria Rose
But we had no, we had no supplies from the 2nd of March Right the way through that May, not a single truck of equipment got to us. And then at the beginning of June, MSF got two trucks of medical equipment in and some of it came to NASA.

20:37.27
alexei sayle
And this is, you know, entirely the Israelis are stopping these talks. It's not to do with Hamas and all those lies.

20:41.10
Victoria Rose
Yeah, no, no, no.

20:42.93
alexei sayle
Yeah.

20:42.94
Victoria Rose
It's entirely...

20:43.09
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.

20:44.20
Victoria Rose
Yeah, i think i think if it I think they need to show the evidence that it is...

20:48.72
alexei sayle
yeah

20:49.21
Victoria Rose
so Because we never saw we never saw that the truck's being looted, and I don't think they've provided the evidence for it, but there's certainly... was ah a gang that had apparently been paid by the Israelis that Hamas were regularly fighting and you could hear that going on around the hospital.

21:04.88
alexei sayle
yeah yeah

21:11.75
Victoria Rose
So there was a gang trying to disrupt what we were doing and you could hear Hamas having a go at them, but you never really saw it. And they certainly you know didn't didn't take any trucks of equipment.

21:26.29
alexei sayle
No, we know it's not.

21:26.31
Victoria Rose
So it's a difficult narrative.

21:28.22
alexei sayle
Yeah, it so it's it's all lies. I mean, how do you how do you feel? I mean, do you feel better for having done something? I mean, because one of the things I think that we suffer from is just this feeling of impetus, really.

21:43.01
Talal K
Yes.

21:43.18
Victoria Rose
Yeah, I suppose i do feel like I've done something, but then you have that horrible survivor's guilt where you haven't done enough. You know, it's all very well for me to swan in and knock out a couple of surgeries, but then to be able to leave them all behind is really hard.

21:56.63
alexei sayle
Yeah.

21:57.97
Victoria Rose
and And actually we...

21:58.39
alexei sayle
There must be a very poignant moment when you say goodbye to them.

22:02.28
Victoria Rose
It's awful. And you just don't know whether you're going to see them again. And that's the hardest thing.

22:06.02
alexei sayle
Yeah.

22:06.93
Victoria Rose
And we've lost some really close friends. So Adnan Birch, who who was the orthopaedic surgeon that's featured in the film that the BBC didn't show, he was really old colleague of ours.

22:20.56
Victoria Rose
We'd all worked with him and he was one of the surgeons that came to the UK to train with us. So That was really hard when he died. And Mohammed Abed, again, is has been disappeared. He's in the film as well.

22:33.52
alexei sayle
Yeah.

22:33.99
Victoria Rose
And we've we've lobbied the government so much to try and get them to find him um because we believe that he is in in prison in Israel. But um that's that's the hardest bit.

22:45.59
Victoria Rose
and And now I've got a whole host of you know nurses that every time I go back, it's sort of finding out you know where where they are, if they're safe um and what they're doing.

22:58.65
alexei sayle
I mean, how does it, um how do you feel? Can you speak about your feelings of the UK government, for example? I mean.

23:06.82
Victoria Rose
I just, ah cant I cannot believe that we can stand by and not do anything about it. I just, it's, I find it incredible that we have a prime minister who is a humanitarian lawyer, so a human rights lawyer, who who has Jewish family rights.

23:26.83
alexei sayle
yeah

23:31.12
Victoria Rose
who is in a privileged position to be able to do something about this and at the same time have, you know, the ear and the protection of the UK Jewish population.

23:44.71
Victoria Rose
And he, and any he doesn't, and he doesn't.

23:44.95
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever met him?

23:51.04
Victoria Rose
We had a ah Zoom call with him at the beginning of this week.

23:56.89
alexei sayle
What was that like?

23:57.25
Victoria Rose
Um,

23:57.84
alexei sayle
If you can, if you're afraid to speak.

23:59.58
Victoria Rose
It was it was um it was yeah it was disappointing. I mean, it was he gave us all ah some time to talk, um which was good. So there was a lot of doctors there. So there was three of us from my charity, Ideals, and three of us from Medical Aid for Palestine. And obviously the six of us know each other very well because we've been on on missions together.

24:23.58
Victoria Rose
And then there was a team from UK Med and ICRC who were the Red Cross, but both of those organisations received direct funding from the FCDO.

24:33.84
Victoria Rose
So you sort of worry what how far they will go and and you know how how much will they put their voices on the line if if that's where their income is coming from.

24:40.13
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah

24:46.67
alexei sayle
yeah

24:46.80
Victoria Rose
um I think the thing that is strong about the the MAP team and the ideals team is that we're we're all surgeons so we unlike the sort of UK Med and ICRC that work in those sort of silos of the field hospitals where the the NGO has gone out there built a field hospital independently of the sort of local ghazan population and the and the ministry of health and they've got a system that they can man so they've got so many beds and they've got you know so many resources they tend to be a lot more sterile and they're able to control what comes through the door and what they do and what they see whereas with map and ideals we embed in the ministry of health hospital so we will go to the ministry of health and say where do you want us and what do you want us to do and they will

25:13.10
alexei sayle
Right. right.

25:34.17
alexei sayle
right

25:39.29
Victoria Rose
invariably sends us to one of the hospitals and we work shoulder to shoulder with the Palestinian doctors and there is no filter for us. You know, we we can't say, oh, we don't take burns over 40%, which ICRC can say because they run that unit.

25:46.62
alexei sayle
Right.

25:53.61
alexei sayle
Right.

25:53.65
Victoria Rose
we we see We see everything that comes through the door.

25:55.94
alexei sayle
Right.

25:56.88
Victoria Rose
So I think we have a much more realistic view of what's going on and we're probably a little bit less um lip service to to our funding.

26:05.46
Talal K
What?

26:07.61
alexei sayle
Yeah.

26:07.62
Victoria Rose
So we were we were quite strong in what we said. hope... i hope I know that one of my colleagues, Anna, specifically spoke about, you know, the baby formula being confiscated when she tried to get in um and and little things that are very difficult for us as doctors to to swallow, really.

26:27.14
alexei sayle
Yeah. Did he look, did he seem like he was listening?

26:30.66
Victoria Rose
I think he was listening. I felt like, though you know, there were some things he might take away, um I don't know what he's going to do with it, but it it it was a very strong testimony from all of us that you couldn't you couldn't deny. And certainly there were a couple of couple of the staff members from ICRC and UK Med who'd only ever been, you know, it was their first time they'd been to Gaza and they were absolutely astounded by what they saw. And that was so great for it to come across.

27:00.02
alexei sayle
Right, right.

27:01.19
Victoria Rose
um so i think you know we said we said a lot you know including stop sending the f35 parts because if you did that we'd all have a lot less to do when we're out there but but i you know what what he yeah

27:13.98
alexei sayle
is Yeah, he's not going to he's not going to do anything, is he really? I think, given who's funding him and who's, you know, where his ideologue, for whatever, I mean, whoever the hell he is I don't quite know, you know, he's

27:19.93
Victoria Rose
it's it's

27:28.86
Victoria Rose
No, it it is it is difficult. And I know, you know, whoever's funding him is funding him. But I do think at some point, even the people that are funding him have got to look at what's happening and realise that it's not right.

27:43.18
alexei sayle
You think?

27:43.14
Victoria Rose
It doesn't matter who, what you, yeah, it doesn't matter what you want from this as your political objective. if you Even if you, you know, want them to to leave Israel or Palestine, and this is not the right way of doing it.

27:59.46
Victoria Rose
And I, you know, the whole world is is watching those people fund this.

28:01.84
Talal K
Hmm.

28:02.03
alexei sayle
Yeah.

28:03.66
Victoria Rose
So at some point, you know, even the Israeli lobby has got to agree that it's not a good look for them.

28:04.26
alexei sayle
Yeah.

28:10.59
Victoria Rose
They are looking very Nazi Germany right now.

28:12.42
alexei sayle
ah we yeah to Yeah, so I agree, but i don't know if they care really. I mean, what you have any i mean what do you think is going to happen? i mean you Any predictions for future?

28:20.78
Victoria Rose
I do. I do think that we are going to, I think if we carry on with the pressure that we're putting on all the respective governments and and as charities, you know, MAP and and Ideals have been across Europe this summer, speaking to them the foreign ministers from Spain.

28:38.21
Victoria Rose
and from ah Germany and from France, and we've been to Geneva and to the United Nations. And I ah do feel that if we can keep the pressure up across Europe, we could start a sort of European sanctions against them. We we know what hurt them, and that was sanctioning Smotrich and Ben Govear. And as we've said, that there is another, you know, 20 so...

29:05.22
Victoria Rose
high ranking Israeli officials that could have sanctions brought against them for things that they've done and said, ah you know, just on the human on the human rights issue and international ah you know it breaches in international law.

29:18.75
alexei sayle
Yes.

29:19.49
Victoria Rose
And if we all did that as as Europe,

29:22.66
alexei sayle
Yeah.

29:22.86
Victoria Rose
I think that's, that would send a massive message. And I'm sure that once one country goes and if you saw it with the recognizing Palestine, although that was lip service, that's a lot further than we've ever got before.

29:34.52
alexei sayle
Yeah.

29:34.76
Victoria Rose
And France france went, UK went. So we're definitely moving in the right direction. And my, view is if we could all take more action as Europe, then that just leaves Mr. Trump and Israel.

29:50.00
Victoria Rose
And and whatever you think of him, you know, he's very, he's very erratic. And he is he is a businessman.

29:54.59
alexei sayle
Yeah.

29:57.30
Victoria Rose
And you can see it now in America that lots of those politicians are saying, we don't want our tax dollars funding somebody else's war.

30:05.43
alexei sayle
Yes.

30:06.85
Victoria Rose
And that is coming, even Fox News are giving airtime to some of the sort of politicians who are who are saying that, you know, they've got huge problems with housing and unemployment.

30:19.07
Victoria Rose
What are they doing funding a war for Israel?

30:21.09
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.

30:22.92
Victoria Rose
And i just I just think if Europe went and he's left on his own with Israel, the finances are really going to start to become an issue for him.

30:34.04
Victoria Rose
And he doesn't, he won't, but you know, you know what he's like. He doesn't like being told what to do. So the more AIPAC and, you know, the lobby are on him, the more likely he is to just go, no, I'm running this.

30:40.59
Talal K
Thank you.

30:42.88
alexei sayle
Yeah.

30:46.03
alexei sayle
Well, that being, Inshallah, let's hope so.

30:46.87
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

30:48.97
alexei sayle
I mean, do you have much to do with the individual Israelis?

30:49.74
Victoria Rose
yeah

30:53.94
alexei sayle
Do you have, I mean, you find, I mean,

30:56.27
Victoria Rose
No, we we don't we don't really. and We've not really managed to get any audience with any of them. We did work quite closely with a mediation group um that were trying to to sort of ah put forward some peace talks and they involved us in their talks about rebuilding the healthcare infrastructure in Gaza if there was a ceasefire.

31:25.29
Victoria Rose
But we we never really got to to talk to any high-ranking Israeli officials.

31:30.84
alexei sayle
No.

31:31.73
Victoria Rose
we've got some We've got some friends. Obviously, we've we've made lots of friends in the media now because we are you know giving them the information that they can't get.

31:40.81
alexei sayle
Right.

31:40.76
Victoria Rose
So we we have some colleagues in Israel that write for Israeli out news outlets. So quite a few of us have worked with Hararetz who have been amazing people.

31:52.65
alexei sayle
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

31:54.04
Victoria Rose
And some and you know some other publications have picked up on things that we've said and and interviewed us. So that's probably been our closest contact to to your average Israeli, really.

32:07.45
alexei sayle
How do they, i mean but these are the I mean, these are small outliers, aren't they, in terms of the Israeli population?

32:15.00
Victoria Rose
They are, but again, they are getting some traction. I mean, I don't know whether you saw the news that that showed a huge number of Israelis demonstrating at one of the crossings, trying to get in to give aid to the Gazans.

32:25.81
Talal K
Thank you.

32:28.20
alexei sayle
Really, no.

32:29.20
Victoria Rose
Yeah, so that that has recently been...

32:30.95
alexei sayle
not We're trying to blockade, because there's quite few who do that.

32:33.31
Victoria Rose
No, though they weren't trying to blockade.

32:33.92
alexei sayle
Yeah.

32:35.03
Victoria Rose
They were trying to get in to to to give aid.

32:36.27
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.

32:38.38
Victoria Rose
um so So there are sort of small pockets.

32:38.67
alexei sayle
Right.

32:41.26
Victoria Rose
And, you know, it's amazing to think how close Tel Aviv is to Gaza and that life goes on normally there.

32:46.82
alexei sayle
Yeah, I mean, that's

32:50.19
Victoria Rose
And I think it, you know, it's a bit, you know, it is becoming, it I think it is becoming uncomfortable for them and the way that the world is ostracizing them.

32:59.87
alexei sayle
Right, yeah. Well, I hope so. Let's do more of all that, really.

33:04.32
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

33:04.45
alexei sayle
I mean, it is one of the only ways that we can.

33:05.39
Talal K
Yeah.

33:07.05
alexei sayle
i mean, they still have, unfortunately, still have all their bought and paid for advocates, but it is the, you know, all these monsters in our government. But, yeah, it is something we can do. It's not, you know, obviously boycott Israel, boycott, and also...

33:23.53
alexei sayle
ah you know, campaign in any way that we find find possible. So are you planning to go back? to i mean but You said, didn't you?

33:34.21
Victoria Rose
Yeah, we we we we've we've got ourselves booked for another mission in in October. Obviously, the charity sends a mission every month now. So a team leaves on the 28th of August.

33:46.44
Victoria Rose
And then we've got another team that will do September. And um my name's down for the October mission. But it's difficult because, as we said, the final decision on who gets in goes to Israel.

33:58.48
Victoria Rose
So they vet that list.

33:58.75
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.

33:59.92
Victoria Rose
And and obviously, you know, myself and Graham, who I go with, have have probably been more visible than we've ever been before.

34:09.42
alexei sayle
yeah

34:09.64
Victoria Rose
um And I'm under no illusions that I'm likely to get a denial or a ban.

34:15.31
Talal K
Oh yeah.

34:15.39
Victoria Rose
And quite a few doctors have been banned and denied now. So um it is, you know, it it is, it is worrying. I think they, they've, the WHO have said it's approaching 50% of all doctors that apply get denied.

34:30.72
Talal K
Stop that clicking please

34:33.31
alexei sayle
It's not me.

34:35.29
Victoria Rose
Oh, it might be me on the on the computer, sorry.

34:40.58
alexei sayle
How does it affect your life back here? I mean, do you...

34:45.17
Victoria Rose
um it's i'm I'm pretty ah lucky at the moment because the trusts that I work for have been very good. um i have to take annual leave to go, um but but they have been very good.

35:00.25
Victoria Rose
And we sort of arranged that they will let me arrange things so that it you know, minimum impact on the service that we're running here. So we'll, you know, front load everything and then catch everything up when I get back.

35:11.60
Talal K
Of course.

35:14.62
Victoria Rose
So it's always a it's always a killer because you you're working really hard before you go to get everyone seen and done and then you go and you've got this four weeks of carnage out there and then when you come back it's you've got to deal with you know everybody that has been waiting to sort of be seen so it it is it is tiring it's very very tiring um but everybody you know

35:37.11
Talal K
Do you ever, you ever resent, ever end up resenting your NHS patients who are like complaining because they've waited too long for an appointment? And you're like, mate, I've just been to fucking Gaza where there's no anesthetic and I'm, you know,

35:50.72
Victoria Rose
No, it it's it's nice to to, it is really nice to come home and see other problems that you can sort out. It is very, I do a lot of breast cancer reconstruction and it is really nice to come home and actually be able to do something well with all the equipment and that is just is it's it is good so no I don't really ah don't really see that that all the patients say it to me though oh I feel really bad coming in moaning about this

36:19.78
Talal K
but you know

36:21.14
alexei sayle
That's nice.

36:21.41
Talal K
If I could ask, that you you do hear obviously that, oh God, it just makes you makes you want to weep just thinking about how restricted and how few supplies you have out there what you're forced to do in terms of surgeries and that you would never you know wish on it on your enemy like,

36:21.82
alexei sayle
ah

36:40.26
Talal K
to do the operations in those circumstances, but has those circumstances ah led to any kind of innovation or like has new ways of doing things because of these constraints come about from it that could help people in the future in war zones and stuff?

36:56.86
Talal K
there anything like that?

36:57.24
Victoria Rose
i I think what I have realized is how much we waste in the UK on once single-use only items. And we probably ought to look a bit more at reusing single use items because that is what we were doing in Gaza.

37:16.91
Victoria Rose
Those items definitely have a lifespan on them. They're not designed to be used forever, but most of them can be used more than once. And I think that was probably what was the most interesting for us when we were there. So things like the the masks that they or the tubes that they put into your throat when they give you a ah general anaesthetic. There's one called a laryngeal mask, which sort of holds um your airway open.

37:44.48
Victoria Rose
goes in the mouth. And in the UK, we throw that away, we use it once and we throw that away.

37:49.46
Talal K
Mm-hmm.

37:49.54
Victoria Rose
Whereas in Gaza, they would put that through sterilization.

37:49.60
Talal K
Mm-hmm.

37:53.09
Victoria Rose
So that would go into an autoclave and be used again. and then it would it would go into a disinfectant and and would use those multiple times. There's other sort of bits and pieces, some some of the surgical equipment that we we throw away in the UK, they were re-sterilizing and getting another two or three uses out of it. And I suppose, you know, you think in this day and age, with all the problems we've got with plastics and and waste and, you know, climate issues, the health services is hugely responsible for creating an enormous amount of of stuff that goes to landfill.

38:29.76
Talal K
Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

38:33.24
Victoria Rose
And lots of lots of our anaesthetists in the UK have been pushing

38:33.41
Talal K
yeah

38:38.84
Victoria Rose
two you know, so to reuse things. So I work with an anaesthetist in London and she will use one syringe for one patient. So when she puts you to sleep, she'll draw every single drug that you need with a single 10 mil syringe.

38:55.78
Victoria Rose
So whereas everybody else will open another syringe for each drug that they give you.

39:01.05
Talal K
Yeah.

39:01.17
Victoria Rose
So they give you some paracetamol, that will be in one 10 mil syringe. They'll give you the fentanyl, that'll be in another one. ah She won't do that. She'll she'll just use one.

39:09.83
Talal K
It's mad.

39:10.07
Victoria Rose
and and and And it is things like that that make you think, well, we that is probably a good thing to be doing in the UK. And they are certainly doing that in Gaza because they they wouldn't dream of of opening yeah of opening all that equipment for one patient.

39:21.92
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.

39:26.88
Talal K
Why do we have that culture just on this slight off chance that someone doesn't sterilize it properly and and they don't want to get sued?...........................

39:26.88
Victoria Rose
So...

39:31.82
Victoria Rose
Yeah, I think that I think there is there is that sort of culture of, of you know, best practice and um infection prevention and, you know, all of that protective, you know,

39:47.62
Victoria Rose
sort of mentality around it and that's that's what's driven it. Definitely infection prevention has driven that. But there are ways of reusing those items and still maintaining um antiseptic techniques.

40:02.95
Talal K
Yeah.

40:04.78
alexei sayle
And ah just finally, I mean, if if I needed it, could you do me a new face?

40:10.82
Victoria Rose
You don't need it.

40:12.58
alexei sayle
Well, I might, you know.

40:13.09
Victoria Rose
You...

40:15.27
alexei sayle
Ah, that's very kind of you to say. That just might be for legal reasons, you know.

40:18.16
Victoria Rose
You definitely don't need it.

40:20.24
alexei sayle
might need If I need to disappear,

40:20.91
Talal K
ah

40:22.51
Victoria Rose
Oh, well, yeah, if you need to disappear, yeah, definitely come and see me.

40:26.81
alexei sayle
yeah I'll come and see you and you he could redo me as a...

40:29.79
Victoria Rose
We'll sort something out.

40:31.04
alexei sayle
Yeah. Good to know. what it's it you know that All this stuff, I've got a solicitor on board you know just in case now these days. um I might as well have a plastic surgeon as well.

40:43.65
alexei sayle
Thank

40:45.43
Victoria Rose
Definitely, definitely not a problem.

40:46.97
alexei sayle
you. Is there anything else you'd like to add to our millions of viewers in the Philippines?

40:56.13
Victoria Rose
No, no, I suppose I suppose the only thing the only thing that I wanted to ask you is how much backlash have you got? Because you're you're Jewish, aren't you?

41:03.86
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, my mother was serious. I mean, I'm not, i mean it's it's I mean, I think I'm in a really privileged position in a way. I mean, I've consistently always supported ah Palestine. I was a founder member, I think, of MAP back in the day.

41:20.61
alexei sayle
um And so it's part of my brand, as it were, that I speak out for Palestine, I think. And I don't, obviously, I don't care.

41:31.43
alexei sayle
I'm also not on social media.

41:32.04
Victoria Rose
Thank you.

41:34.12
alexei sayle
Media, so I don't see, presumably, there is a lot of vile stuff that is pumped my way. If I was on Twitter, I would get, no?

41:41.45
Talal K
No, well, i I manage your accounts, but ah I guess a lot of people realize you're not running it, but a lot of people think you are there.

41:44.71
alexei sayle
That's true, yeah. Yeah, they just know.

41:49.55
Talal K
They'll message you ah thinking that you're sitting on your Instagram replying to messages.

41:54.94
alexei sayle
ha ha ha.

41:55.63
Talal K
And I'm like, I'm, I always say I'm Talal by the way I'm not Alexi.

41:58.66
alexei sayle
Right.

41:58.78
Talal K
um If I respond to someone, but I,

42:00.67
alexei sayle
There was, I mean, before that, I mean, that which is hardly considering it's not really suffering, but, you know, there was an attempt. I think it was ah it was a sort of an initial,

42:12.20
alexei sayle
it would have gone further. When I did Desert Island Discs in 2021, there was an attempt by a conservative cretin called Matthew Alford MP, who's now lost his seat,

42:24.19
alexei sayle
Obviously, I suppose at the behest of the campaign against anti-Semitism, which of course is a campaign for Israel, campaign for apartheid and ethnic cleansing, that they,

42:31.99
Victoria Rose
Yes.

42:40.86
alexei sayle
to have my Desert Island Discs not broadcast because I allow anti-Semitism for various number of reasons. very very number of reasons And that, you know, the the the backlash was so strong in support of me that they they they they backed off, really, because they they they saw that I was kind of fireproof in that.

43:04.30
alexei sayle
ah like At that point, I was kind of fireproof that I'm one of the few people that they can't go after, really. And that's, ah you know, it's ah it's it's a very privilege. You know, I've worked very hard to build in that position, really, you know, to to you know and you have to.

43:20.74
alexei sayle
You always have to think about what you say and what you do. But, you know, I've always consistently... mean, I've always looked... I've always had that consideration in mind with all the things I do though that they are going to come after me one way. But I feel a great kind of sympathy for...

43:35.98
alexei sayle
and younger performers really you must have a you know about whether to speak out or whether not i mean it's like sometimes you I mean like kneecap it's made them arena acts it's increased their one them might go to jail but I mean um you know it's increased their profile massively others yeah There's a lot of comedians. Again, UK Liars for Israel and other groups, they they they they they act against comedians, particularly, I think, because comedians are the kind of conscience. And so you've got Reginald D. Hunter, who's going through a kind of ah ah legal tussle with shitba Martin Lewis's brother, Mark Lewis.

44:19.02
alexei sayle
and And, you know, they they go I think they go for comedians. they they They deliberately go and see comedians and then storm out outraged and then, you know, try and get them cancelled.

44:31.01
alexei sayle
There's a thing going on Liverpool UNC Theatre about them can...

44:31.20
Talal K
Fun night out.

44:36.46
alexei sayle
So they are, they're very conscious about attacking comedians, I think, because we do act as a kind of conscience. I also think that a lot of comedians are being utterly cowardly, though. I think that they should speak out more, i'm particularly ones who are, this you know, position themselves on the left. If you're, you know, I mean, i it's it's ah it's not my original quote, but If you wonder about how you would have behaved during the Nazi Holocaust, how you are behaving now is how you would have behaved then.

45:06.47
alexei sayle
And if you stay silent during this, you'd yeah, you'd stay silent during the Nazi Holocaust.

45:06.92
Talal K
Oh.

45:08.75
Victoria Rose
Yes, you're siding with the power.

45:13.20
alexei sayle
So, you know, you have to you have to reflect on that, you know, and whatever you know, whatever pen penalties you suffer, you know, your, you know, your moral, you know, the country and the world needs you to speak out, really. So I think there is a lot. there There's intimidation, and I understand that, and it's, you know, I'm sympathetic.

45:35.61
alexei sayle
There's also there's also moral cowardice, really, which kind of shocks me, really.

45:38.73
Victoria Rose
Gone.

45:40.09
alexei sayle
and it's um And it's easy for me, because I say it's always it's always been a part of my brand that I speak out, but I've never...

45:40.20
Talal K
It's funny. and

45:47.48
alexei sayle
um I mean, I think, i mean, they don't ask me to review the papers anymore on Radio 4 on Sunday morning. that That opportunity he seems to have mysteriously vanished.

45:57.45
Victoria Rose
go

45:58.33
alexei sayle
there was a thing, the thing that happened, I don't know, it's because there was, ah I was at 500 Jewish people handing the letter into Downstreet, which they wouldn't take. He's such a coward, he wouldn't even take the fucking letter.

46:10.14
alexei sayle
But, I don't know. um But we were interviewed by some TV crew for politics. politics i was I was scheduled to go on the PM program. And then I was interviewed by a TV crew for Politics Live.

46:22.33
alexei sayle
And then PM and came back and said, well, we can't have you on because Politics Live have interviewed you. So we're canceling your PM. And then it turned out that Politics Live is not on at the moment.

46:33.80
alexei sayle
So it's like, what's what's up with that? What's going on with that? You know, you I mean, you get... You know, I think, I mean, I haven't really, I mean, you I don't know, you i mean you you were on the media round, really. it sentt They don't ask me, really. I can put myself forward, I guess.

46:51.53
Victoria Rose
Yeah, we did. We did have a lot of of the BBC cancelling us, though, I have to say. they They'd contact us a lot when we were in Gaza and say, we want to do this interview with you.

46:56.50
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.

47:00.33
Victoria Rose
And, you know, you'd move the operating list around so that somebody else could do a case while you stepped out to do an interview. And then when you stepped out, they'd say, oh, no, we've been on BBC radio this morning, so we we don't want you.

47:12.29
alexei sayle
Yeah, that's so so that's the that's a kind of trick, I think, that they pull.

47:16.66
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

47:17.19
alexei sayle
Yeah.

47:17.51
Victoria Rose
And I think we, we, well, like Philip, who was running my sort of, um, contacting everyone with all the stuff, videos that I'd recorded. He worked out that they did that to us about nine times when we were in Gaza.

47:30.72
Victoria Rose
They canceled an interview that they said, yeah, mate.

47:30.88
Talal K
Jesus.

47:30.97
alexei sayle
Right, so that's it. Okay. Yeah, that's it.

47:33.80
Talal K
but Do you get any ah horrible messages or anything from individuals?

47:38.34
Victoria Rose
um i've had some I've had some letters um from members of staff come to the hospital, but probably only three or four. I had a really interesting conversation with a ah chap on Instagram, a Jewish guy,

47:53.75
Victoria Rose
um And, you know, he's so he was quite anti me and I was a Hamas mouthpiece and that was his opening gambit. um And then we sort of, you know, I replied and tried to state my corner. and And then he just suddenly came out and said, you've just got no idea what it's like for Jewish people in the UK. You can't, you know, basically, if you if you say you support ah Palestine, you're a self-hating Jew.

48:22.40
Victoria Rose
And if you try and support Israel, you're a genocidal maniac. And so a lot of them, he was, you know, what he was trying to say to me is, you know, by spurting or everything I'm spurting is inciting ah problems for for, you know, the Jewish population, which is, you know, it's, it's, he, ah yeah, I do, I do listen to to what people say.

48:37.84
alexei sayle
Bye.

48:44.37
Victoria Rose
It's a difficult one, isn't it? But I, i I think it's hard. for i do think it's hard. I've got a ah very devout Jewish friend and i and I know she finds it hard. And when when I first went to Gaza, we, you know, she was just very grateful that I came back and I was alive and I was okay.

49:01.88
Victoria Rose
But we did have a conversation at the start of the war where we both said, look, we probably shouldn't get into it because we'll have different viewpoints. But now I feel it's gone so far that, you know, we probably should get into it because I know that she's not the sort of person that would support this because she's, you know, she's not.

49:17.41
alexei sayle
Yeah.

49:18.50
Talal K
Mm-hmm.

49:19.33
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

49:20.41
alexei sayle
Yeah. I mean, Jewish people need to have those honest conversations in their community. But I mean, obviously, the community pressure. i'm and I'm not part of whatever the Jewish community.

49:30.36
Victoria Rose
yeah

49:31.58
alexei sayle
Well, I'm a part of. I'm a part of a Jewish community, which is pugnacious. Old Jews who hate Israel and hate genocide. I mean, that's my Jewish community.

49:42.76
alexei sayle
Yeah, was some of them Holocaust survivors. With weird beards. a lot of them have kind strange, kind of slightly Baroque facial hair. i mean, the men. you're just cantankerous old Jews who are so kind of morally you strong in a way but yeah that's my Jewish community so that that makes it easy for me I know if you're a part of that Golders Green or Manchester or you know kind of ah you know kind of Israel supporting Ashkenazi it is it must be difficult but you know

50:10.61
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

50:21.61
alexei sayle
You know, you can't mate.

50:22.98
Talal K
especially as we we do have idiots who are approach who anti-Zionist and they do conflate that with the being anti-anyone Jewish and that you do have that minority that, you know, there are anti-Semites out there that have to fucking, if afford to what do you do, ignore them or like just, we can't apologize for them because that gives us responsibility for them, you know, it's like they're not,

50:36.45
alexei sayle
Very tiny minority, I think.

50:38.34
Victoria Rose
Hmm.

50:43.50
Victoria Rose
Oh yeah, there there are. So you...

50:49.48
alexei sayle
No, it's not my fault.

50:54.46
Talal K
They're not humanitarian. These are just hateful people.

50:55.96
Victoria Rose
No, no, exactly.

50:56.62
Talal K
Like, fuck them.

50:58.07
Victoria Rose
exactly so And I think that's that's the way that we've navigated it really as the charities is just to stick to the humanitarian issues. It doesn't matter who you are or what your religion is. Watching 117,000 people be maimed and sixty thousand die isn't isn't acceptable in any any religion

51:20.29
alexei sayle
No, it doesn't matter people are going to say things to you. to ah Your son's bar mitzvah, tough shit.

51:28.93
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

51:29.72
alexei sayle
I think. What's your dog called?

51:34.10
Victoria Rose
Well, he's not mine. He's mine.

51:35.19
alexei sayle
Oh, right.

51:36.00
Victoria Rose
I'm borrowing this dog. My dog's at home, but this is Fletch. He's not really supposed to be on the bed, but I'm a real pushover.

51:42.13
alexei sayle
All right.

51:44.12
Talal K
uh,

51:46.50
alexei sayle
Says your support you borrowed a support animal.

51:49.19
Victoria Rose
Yeah, no, I had to leave mine at home because he's he's not got passport now and he's bit old. So I'm borrowing this one while I'm here. But he's good, this one.

51:55.59
alexei sayle
Where are you?

51:57.06
Victoria Rose
ah We're in Barcelona.

51:58.52
alexei sayle
Oh right, oh okay.

51:59.53
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

52:01.19
alexei sayle
Young ones was big in Catalonia.

52:01.53
Victoria Rose
Yeah.

52:04.53
Victoria Rose
What was it?

52:05.27
alexei sayle
Yeah, bizarrely, because it was the first thing broadcast when they got their own Catalan language station.

52:10.67
Victoria Rose
Oh.

52:11.85
alexei sayle
One of the first things that were broadcast was and the young ones dubbed into Catalan. There's actually a statue there's a statue of Nigel Plainer somewhere in some town south of Boston, somewhere Catalan town.

52:18.19
Victoria Rose
Oh, I'd love to see that.

52:26.08
alexei sayle
I never remember its name.

52:26.81
Victoria Rose
Oh, brilliant.

52:28.29
alexei sayle
and

52:29.21
Talal K
Wow.

52:29.39
alexei sayle
um Yeah, we went to me and Nigel went to a conference there,

52:34.05
Victoria Rose
Brilliant.

52:34.69
alexei sayle
A few years ago, I was a festival called Primera Persona. And, um yeah, so...

52:41.54
Victoria Rose
Oh, well, i'm I'm, we're going into, we're going into Barcelona itself at the weekend before we come back and I'm desperately trying to find those escalators that they've painted in the Palestinian flag.

52:41.64
Talal K
Are you jealous?

52:48.15
alexei sayle
right

52:52.41
alexei sayle
No, I didn't know anything about that, no. Well, they're, yeah.

52:54.26
Victoria Rose
Oh yeah, there's there's ah some escalators in the city and they've um they've painted the the floor in the Palestinian flag colours.

53:01.27
alexei sayle
Brilliant. They're very good.

53:03.40
Victoria Rose
So, Yeah, they are. They're very good.

53:07.08
alexei sayle
Isn't it extraordinarily hot? that I mean, you it must be.

53:10.26
Victoria Rose
ah Well, I think it's probably not far off what it is in London at the moment, looking at the forecast.

53:12.52
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.

53:17.59
alexei sayle
Well, you're on neurology, so you're not, you know, that's a yeah.

53:17.97
Victoria Rose
Aircon, though.

53:22.06
Victoria Rose
No, this is this is my... It's not even a week because we only got it yesterday, but there this is our this is our holiday.

53:28.93
alexei sayle
Oh,

53:29.66
Talal K
the Those stairs are in Park Güell or Juá?

53:33.40
alexei sayle
oh I know Pockwell, yeah.

53:35.00
Victoria Rose
Oh,

53:35.65
alexei sayle
Yeah, I will see her now. Will, shut up.

53:39.20
Talal K
No, let Wilf fly free, he's all good. Hello Wilf.

53:41.37
Victoria Rose
and

53:41.52
alexei sayle
That's my senile cat.

53:44.43
Victoria Rose
I should get Fletcher. Oh, Fletcher's left.

53:48.45
Talal K
Alright, it's a fucking zoo in here.

53:48.93
Victoria Rose
He's got a lot to say.

53:50.87
alexei sayle
Yeah, well, he's his mind's going. He doesn't quite know, you know. where he is or what's going on, really.

53:55.31
Talal K
Habibi.

53:56.93
alexei sayle
We're only keeping him alive because the community the podcast loves him so much, really. Oh, you poor old fellow.

54:04.45
Talal K
Habibi, wealth.

54:08.04
alexei sayle
He's better now. He's seen me. He's calmed down. Oh, dear.

54:11.03
Talal K
Oh.

54:13.75
Talal K
Doctor, we we might say goodbye in a second, but but please wave a wait, wait, wait.

54:15.97
Victoria Rose
No, thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

54:18.24
alexei sayle
Well, thank you for coming on.

54:18.50
Talal K
This is, wait, wait, wait.

54:19.30
alexei sayle
Yes, I'm glad.

54:19.99
Talal K
I need to do this admin.

54:20.28
alexei sayle
Well, oh, all right.

54:21.62
Talal K
ah We might say goodbye, but that doesn't mean close your tab ah because once we stop the recording, everything needs to upload. So we're just saying goodbye.

54:29.95
Victoria Rose
Okay.

54:30.77
Talal K
We're saying goodbye for the sake of the podcast. And then we'll say our real goodbyes after I've uploaded everything.

54:34.31
Victoria Rose
Okay.

54:35.87
Talal K
Please don't close the website and run away ah because that will be a disaster.

54:39.01
alexei sayle
I hope coming on wasn't a disappointment for you.

54:41.63
Victoria Rose
No, it was brilliant. Thank you.

54:43.71
alexei sayle
ah Thank you.

54:44.23
Victoria Rose
Honestly, and you're an absolute legend. i'm ah I'm that young one's age group. grew up on that.

54:50.12
alexei sayle
Well, thank you, yeah. yeah Yeah, well, it's you know it's nice.

54:53.24
Talal K
Really appreciate your time.

54:54.98
alexei sayle
yeah Yes, thank you very much, Jimi.

54:56.32
Talal K
And if I can just waste a little bit more of your time, I do need to let the listeners know that to support the show, they can go to patreon.com forward slash Alexis L podcast. That's patreon.com forward slash Alexis L podcast. Cut, chuck us a couple quid a month to help keep the show going.

55:12.79
Talal K
Keep the show afloat. This is all grassroots movement. We never want to have adverts on the show and you help us. do that. All right, I got that out the way Thank you, guys.

55:23.93
alexei sayle
Thank you.

55:25.22
Talal K
Real pleasure, doctor. Keep up the good work.

55:27.06
Victoria Rose
Thanks very much.

55:27.59
alexei sayle
thank you but do eat What happens now?

55:32.34
Talal K
Say bye to our listeners, Alexi.

55:33.69
alexei sayle
Bye-bye. Bye-bye, listeners. Bye-bye.