(00:00:03):
He repeatedly tried to strangle me,

(00:00:05):
but I stayed with him,

(00:00:07):
terrified that this monster would get some custody of our children.

(00:00:10):
I sacrificed my own safety to protect them until he put his hands on our daughter's neck.

(00:00:16):
We left that day.

(00:00:17):
I called the police who treated me like a scorned lover and a lunatic.

(00:00:22):
I filed for a restraining order where the judge talked to me like I was stupid.

(00:00:26):
Restraining order denied.

(00:00:27):
A different judge eventually granted it.

(00:00:29):
Not that it mattered since he repeatedly violated the order and the police did nothing.

(00:00:34):
Now we're fighting over custody of the child he tried to kill.

(00:00:37):
And this is where the real misogyny comes into play.

(00:00:41):
I don't have the money I should to fight for custody.

(00:00:44):
Daycare was too expensive.

(00:00:45):
Work paid too little.

(00:00:47):
I stayed home, entrapping myself with a violent man.

(00:00:50):
I thought I was doing the right thing for our children.

(00:00:53):
Now,

(00:00:54):
I worry my entire life story will be defined by him,

(00:00:57):
by the legal system that refuses to protect us.

(00:01:00):
I worry he will kill us.

(00:01:01):
I worry that will be due in part to the fact that I stayed home with my children

(00:01:05):
because I had no other choice.

(00:01:08):
Please let your listeners know that our legal system is in crisis and that however

(00:01:12):
little they think people are stepping up to help,

(00:01:14):
they're stepping up even less than that.

(00:01:17):
As long as women have to quit working to enslave themselves to patriarchy, we have no hope.

(00:01:22):
Hi.

(00:01:23):
I'm Zahn Valines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast.

(00:01:27):
As always,

(00:01:28):
I'd like to ask you to help support this podcast by sharing it on social media,

(00:01:31):
by leaving a positive review on your favorite podcast platform,

(00:01:35):
by heart reacting it on Substack,

(00:01:37):
and by leaving comments or otherwise engaging.

(00:01:40):
As many of you know,

(00:01:41):
social media algorithms are trying to drive away feminist and leftist creators.

(00:01:46):
The most effective way to push back is to give the algorithm what it wants, engagement.

(00:01:51):
You can also sign up to become a paid subscriber and then you'll get at least one

(00:01:54):
bonus podcast episode a month.

(00:01:56):
I am here today with my guest Fatima Goss Graves,

(00:01:59):
who is on a mission to change so many of the dynamics the writer spoke about in the

(00:02:03):
opening vignette.

(00:02:05):
She is a nationally recognized leader in the fight for gender justice and an expert

(00:02:09):
in law,

(00:02:10):
policy and culture change.

(00:02:12):
She is president and CEO of the National Women's Law Center,

(00:02:15):
president of the National Women's Law Center Action Fund,

(00:02:18):
and a co-founder of the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund.

(00:02:22):
Hi, Fatima.

(00:02:22):
Thanks for coming on the podcast.

(00:02:25):
So happy to be here.

(00:02:26):
I'm so glad to have you here.

(00:02:28):
And I think the thing that struck me most about that opening vignette is the

(00:02:33):
listener saying too few people are stepping up to make change.

(00:02:37):
And

(00:02:38):
I do agree with her,

(00:02:39):
but you are one of many stepping up to make change and you have done so much.

(00:02:42):
So thank you for that.

(00:02:45):
Well, thank you.

(00:02:46):
And I love that you honor the stories by reading them.

(00:02:52):
There's so much power in storytelling, which is a way to drive change.

(00:02:56):
So I took that in and feel like it was a gift to hear that story.

(00:03:03):
Well, I'm glad.

(00:03:03):
And I think,

(00:03:04):
you know,

(00:03:05):
I think there's really compelling research that we can recite as many statistics as

(00:03:09):
we want,

(00:03:10):
but that those statistics really don't resonate until we hear how that permeates

(00:03:15):
people's stories.

(00:03:16):
So I love the opportunity to share them.

(00:03:19):
And I want to hear your story to get started.

(00:03:22):
Tell me about yourself.

(00:03:24):
What is your story?

(00:03:26):
And how did you get to where you are today?

(00:03:29):
So I grew up mostly in California, in Oakland.

(00:03:35):
And I don't know how much you know about the Bay Area and Oakland,

(00:03:42):
but it is a place that where I sort of feel like activism is in the DNA of Oakland.

(00:03:50):
And it was not until I was an adult that I realized that that's maybe not every

(00:03:55):
place,

(00:03:56):
not every part of the country comes up with an understanding that activism is a

(00:04:02):
good,

(00:04:03):
that people who dedicate their lives to that work are community heroes in many

(00:04:11):
ways.

(00:04:12):
I'm also the daughter of Carol and Tom.

(00:04:16):
And I think that matters very

(00:04:19):
A lot.

(00:04:21):
They themselves instilled very serious values in me and my sisters about what our duty is.

(00:04:30):
What our duty is to community, what our duty is to family.

(00:04:36):
And so I came up in a way understanding that my life could not just be about me.

(00:04:45):
And I have tried my best to instill that in my own children, too.

(00:04:50):
Both my parents' families actually were plaintiffs in school desegregation cases.

(00:04:56):
And so I also became a lawyer.

(00:05:00):
I became the first lawyer in my family, actually.

(00:05:03):
And

(00:05:05):
but became sort of intrigued and excited about the law and its power to drive change.

(00:05:14):
And I really wanted to be a part of that.

(00:05:16):
And it's really a big part of why I became a lawyer was to think about how to

(00:05:25):
change things that seem unfair,

(00:05:28):
unequal,

(00:05:31):
and that the law says something about it.

(00:05:34):
And people who understand and wield that tool for good can have a lot of power in this country.

(00:05:42):
I love that you mentioned the law as a tool for good,

(00:05:45):
because I think we are a lot of us seeing it being used as a tool for just horror

(00:05:50):
right now.

(00:05:51):
And I am also seeing

(00:05:54):
this sort of social movement that is kind of like anti-lawyer culture.

(00:05:58):
And the thing I always tell people is that anti-lawyer culture is anti-justice

(00:06:02):
culture because the people who want you to distrust lawyers are the people who want

(00:06:07):
you to not assert your rights.

(00:06:09):
So,

(00:06:10):
you know,

(00:06:10):
to everybody listening,

(00:06:12):
the lawyers are not all good,

(00:06:15):
but many of them are on the very front lines of struggle.

(00:06:18):
And Tatima is one of them.

(00:06:20):
And we're lucky to have lawyers like her.

(00:06:23):
Oh, thank you.

(00:06:24):
But can I say something about that?

(00:06:26):
Sure.

(00:06:26):
You know,

(00:06:26):
we have,

(00:06:27):
so on our website,

(00:06:28):
we have these shirts that just say,

(00:06:32):
I took an oath and they have been like,

(00:06:37):
we were sold out and I think they're back and they have been flying off the shelves

(00:06:41):
because actually you,

(00:06:44):
you actually sign up to a profession as a lawyer that has some ethical standards.

(00:06:50):
Yeah.

(00:06:52):
And you do take an oath, and that oath is not to a particular person.

(00:06:56):
It is to the Constitution and to the rule of law.

(00:07:00):
And right now we are having a fierce debate over whether or not those basic ideas

(00:07:06):
are going to hold.

(00:07:08):
And so I actually think lawyers and our oath that we took have a really important

(00:07:14):
role to play right now.

(00:07:15):
And we're trying our best to do that at the National Women's Law Center alongside

(00:07:18):
so many other organizations because inherent in the oath we took is a requirement

(00:07:27):
for good.

(00:07:29):
I love that.

(00:07:30):
I think that's great.

(00:07:31):
And I think that's an amazing way to push back on these right wing forces that are

(00:07:36):
trying to convince us that,

(00:07:37):
you know,

(00:07:38):
these activist lawyers are just terrible people because they are the people

(00:07:41):
standing between us and everything else.

(00:07:45):
So tell me a little bit about the National Women's Law Center and what you do and

(00:07:50):
what your work looks like.

(00:07:52):
So the National Women's Law Center was founded over 50 years ago.

(00:07:56):
It was actually founded just a few months after Title IX passed in 1972.

(00:08:02):
And we fight for gender justice.

(00:08:04):
We do it in the courts.

(00:08:06):
We move to pass laws and policies at the federal level and in states.

(00:08:14):
And we engage with people where they are through culture and narrative strategies

(00:08:21):
that create the conditions for the sort of change we'd like to see.

(00:08:25):
And we work across the lives of women and girls

(00:08:29):
We work on their education and workplace justice.

(00:08:33):
We work on reproductive freedom and healthcare access.

(00:08:39):
We work on income security and the range of supports that families need to thrive,

(00:08:45):
including core supports like childcare.

(00:08:47):
And we work foundationally on really important things like our democracy,

(00:08:53):
like having court systems,

(00:08:57):
And we have a really amazing staff made up of lawyers and researchers and

(00:09:03):
organizers and storytellers and all committed to achieving gender justice.

(00:09:11):
And it's a real honor to lead this mighty group.

(00:09:15):
We also run a couple of funds,

(00:09:18):
including the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund and something that's called the Abortion

(00:09:23):
Access Legal Defense Fund.

(00:09:25):
And through those funds,

(00:09:26):
we're able to help people directly outside of our general legal and policy work by

(00:09:32):
supporting cases that need to be supported.

(00:09:35):
And so we are booked and busy, as I like to say in this time, but towards justice.

(00:09:43):
And I wouldn't want it any other way.

(00:09:46):
Well, booked and busy is good, especially in this moment.

(00:09:49):
I have to tell you, I have a soft spot for Time's Up.

(00:09:53):
because the very first piece of clothing that my oldest child wore was a Time's Up

(00:10:00):
onesie that my mother rushed to the hospital to essentially force onto her.

(00:10:07):
And I just thought it was such a lovely way to enter the world.

(00:10:12):
That is amazing.

(00:10:13):
That is an amazing story.

(00:10:15):
And,

(00:10:16):
you know,

(00:10:16):
Time's Up wound down as an organization a couple of years ago,

(00:10:21):
but we continue to run the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund.

(00:10:24):
And,

(00:10:25):
you know,

(00:10:26):
we found at Time's Up Legal Defense Fund in the wake of millions of people

(00:10:35):
gathering together

(00:10:37):
saying Me Too,

(00:10:39):
survivors coming forward and telling their stories so powerfully against some of

(00:10:48):
the most powerful people in this country and around the world.

(00:10:52):
And I think people forget that we did this,

(00:10:56):
it was in the first year of the Trump administration,

(00:11:01):
when we dared to launch this big,

(00:11:05):
hairy,

(00:11:05):
audacious idea that was demanding more.

(00:11:12):
And so,

(00:11:14):
you know,

(00:11:14):
at the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund,

(00:11:16):
we've been able to help over 5,000 people so far.

(00:11:24):
We've been connecting people with attorneys.

(00:11:27):
We've been helping to support them by paying legal fees and

(00:11:31):
providing media assistance in select cases of workplace harassment.

(00:11:37):
And it is always my treat to either meet people who have come through the fund or

(00:11:44):
meet people who were inspired to do something good because of Time's Up,

(00:11:51):
because they were ready to say Time's Up.

(00:11:54):
That's so many people.

(00:11:56):
I'm kind of my mind boggles at 5,000 people.

(00:11:59):
I think something a lot of people don't realize is how expensive these cases can be to litigate.

(00:12:05):
It's very easy to get upset about what lawyers charge,

(00:12:09):
but I think about most of my family are lawyers and most of them are working on

(00:12:15):
like civil rights,

(00:12:16):
1983 sorts of cases.

(00:12:18):
And the expert witnesses and all of the years and years and years of costs

(00:12:23):
are just mind blowing.

(00:12:24):
It's such a huge barrier to getting any kind of justice.

(00:12:27):
So it's so important that you guys are doing this.

(00:12:31):
Yeah,

(00:12:32):
that what we decided is that,

(00:12:33):
you know,

(00:12:34):
listen,

(00:12:35):
harassment should not be just a cost of doing business for organizations.

(00:12:41):
And part of the way that happens is if they assume that people will either not

(00:12:48):
afford or be able to try to fight back.

(00:12:52):
And what Time's Up Legal Defense Fund does is it changes that power calculation.

(00:12:57):
We have been able to support the cases of people whose earnings were so low,

(00:13:06):
they would have never been able to draw a lawyer to be interested in their case.

(00:13:10):
people who work as domestic workers and home health aides,

(00:13:14):
people who work as restaurant workers and on farms,

(00:13:18):
who work as security guards,

(00:13:20):
who experience harassment day to day.

(00:13:23):
And we've also been able to support people who've been on the other side of

(00:13:29):
litigation too,

(00:13:31):
who find themselves facing defamation suits just because they spoke out.

(00:13:36):
about the harassment that they face.

(00:13:39):
And so we are working to change that power and balance that people face when they

(00:13:44):
dare to say that they deserve to work with safety and dignity.

(00:13:51):
I'm so glad you guys are doing this.

(00:13:52):
So I will tell you when I was doing research for this podcast,

(00:13:55):
and I would encourage listeners to just Google Fatima,

(00:13:59):
because what you will find is an incredibly dense volume of work.

(00:14:05):
You'll find so much testimony.

(00:14:07):
And in each episode where she has given testimony anywhere,

(00:14:11):
it's so research dense,

(00:14:13):
so many useful statistics.

(00:14:15):
You can really go down a rabbit hole

(00:14:18):
for days not that I would ever do something like that um and and and learn a lot so

(00:14:24):
you're doing a lot you're kind of all over the landscape of women's law and I guess

(00:14:31):
my question for you is as you know the mother to all these sort of justice projects

(00:14:37):
I know you can't really have a favorite child um

(00:14:41):
But which one is most interesting to you?

(00:14:43):
Just tell us.

(00:14:43):
What do you think is the most important issue?

(00:14:46):
The one you like to talk about the most?

(00:14:48):
Like, tell us.

(00:14:50):
Well,

(00:14:51):
here's the thing that I will say,

(00:14:53):
because like any good mother,

(00:14:55):
I don't choose among my children.

(00:15:00):
But I will say that there are points in time where

(00:15:06):
I force myself to really laser focus on one area.

(00:15:12):
And that is sometimes because there is an opportunity.

(00:15:16):
And if we all just lean in, I know we can get a tremendous win.

(00:15:21):
Or sometimes there's a giant threat.

(00:15:24):
coming at us that we all need to be focused on.

(00:15:29):
So right now,

(00:15:31):
for example,

(00:15:31):
on the other side of the passage of the big betrayal bill,

(00:15:36):
we have a lot of work to do to help people understand what is going to happen with

(00:15:43):
these giant cuts to Medicaid.

(00:15:45):
We have a really,

(00:15:47):
really important task to help people understand what their rights are there and to

(00:15:52):
be able to help protect it.

(00:15:54):
Right now, with the giant efforts to quietly undermine reproductive freedom,

(00:16:05):
And we're seeing that at all levels, not just in defunding Planned Parenthood.

(00:16:11):
We have a duty to actually make sure that is seen so that people know what is happening.

(00:16:16):
They know what is coming.

(00:16:17):
And then the last thing that I will say that I probably am spending a lot of time

(00:16:21):
talking about may seem...

(00:16:25):
like a bit of a surprise given that we are in the business and era of a slate of

(00:16:31):
executive orders that call things,

(00:16:33):
that call diversity,

(00:16:34):
equity,

(00:16:35):
inclusion policies illegal.

(00:16:36):
I actually think we have to talk a lot about the fact that our civil rights laws

(00:16:44):
that have been on the books for 60 years,

(00:16:48):
they are still there.

(00:16:51):
And they do afford people rights at work, in school, in housing, and in other settings.

(00:16:58):
And that just because this administration calls something illegal doesn't make it so.

(00:17:04):
Our job in this time is to ensure people don't comply in advance with his illegal

(00:17:10):
executive actions and instead remember the communities that they are supposed to be

(00:17:16):
serving.

(00:17:18):
that can feel really hard and tricky in times,

(00:17:22):
um,

(00:17:22):
when there's a lot of fear,

(00:17:24):
but I think a radical act people can engage in is not complying in advance and

(00:17:32):
reminding themselves that they still have rights and autonomy,

(00:17:37):
even in the face of a bully.

(00:17:40):
I love, love, love that you were talking about not complying in advance.

(00:17:44):
Um,

(00:17:45):
So I live in Atlanta, so we have a really big civil rights movement and history here.

(00:17:51):
And there's been a lot of discussion about not complying in advance because of a

(00:17:55):
number of things that are happening here.

(00:17:57):
And one thing that we have seen occurring is a lot of school systems are removing

(00:18:03):
their diversity and their inclusion policies when there's no actual threat,

(00:18:08):
just ahead of time so they can fly under the radar.

(00:18:11):
Yeah.

(00:18:12):
And there was one case where we had a very progressive city here that removed all

(00:18:17):
of its diversity and inclusion policies,

(00:18:19):
arrested people for protesting it,

(00:18:23):
and then like three days later reinstated them.

(00:18:25):
And it's like, wow, to what end did you do this?

(00:18:30):
It's just really alarming to see people assuming that everything is over and acting

(00:18:37):
as if it has to be over rather than pushing back.

(00:18:41):
So I want to ask you about that a little bit more because I definitely see this in

(00:18:46):
my own work where there are just obviously illegal things happening to women,

(00:18:51):
especially at work,

(00:18:52):
sometimes at their children's school.

(00:18:56):
And they just kind of assume that in the new administration,

(00:18:59):
they have no rights or maybe they never would have thought they had rights to push

(00:19:02):
back.

(00:19:04):
Can you talk a little bit about...

(00:19:08):
what people can do in those situations,

(00:19:10):
what your advice is for women who,

(00:19:13):
you know,

(00:19:13):
are maybe being harassed at work and they think,

(00:19:15):
well,

(00:19:16):
maybe this is not okay,

(00:19:17):
but they're not really sure like what to do next.

(00:19:20):
So the first thing that I really want to say is that the Civil Rights Act of 1964,

(00:19:26):
so it is literally now 61 years old,

(00:19:32):
It provides protection against discrimination at work in every corner of this country, right?

(00:19:40):
Whether your state likes it or not, and whether this administration says it exists or not.

(00:19:47):
And really importantly, you have a private right of action under it.

(00:19:52):
And what that means is attorneys in the private bar can enforce it.

(00:19:57):
We at the National Women's Law Center, we run a legal network

(00:20:02):
that provides connections to attorneys for anyone who's experienced sex

(00:20:08):
discrimination at work,

(00:20:10):
at school and housing or health care.

(00:20:12):
So if you are someone who's experienced discrimination at work and you would like

(00:20:20):
to have a free legal intake,

(00:20:22):
you can find us at nwlc.org slash legal help.

(00:20:28):
Very easy to find us.

(00:20:31):
The second thing that I want to say,

(00:20:32):
though,

(00:20:33):
is I think people need to ensure that their employers are reminded of these

(00:20:42):
obligations.

(00:20:43):
Employers are in a tough spot right now,

(00:20:46):
I'm sure they think,

(00:20:47):
because they're getting one set of information from the administration and another

(00:20:53):
set of information from the actual law,

(00:20:56):
and they don't know where they will land.

(00:20:59):
But the thing that their employers really care about,

(00:21:02):
they care about their clients and customers,

(00:21:05):
and they care about their workforce,

(00:21:07):
right?

(00:21:07):
If they are not able to recruit and retain a strong workforce,

(00:21:11):
if they are not able to actually get...

(00:21:16):
their workers to be motivated to deliver, then they run into trouble.

(00:21:22):
And so employers should really understand that their workers care about this.

(00:21:26):
They care where they land on these issues.

(00:21:29):
They want to see them fighting for them.

(00:21:32):
And when we say don't comply in advance,

(00:21:35):
the reason we say don't comply in advance is that they're over there.

(00:21:40):
This administration is just making stuff up.

(00:21:43):
And so you will not be protected by complying in advance, but you might lose your best workers.

(00:21:49):
You might lose your best clients.

(00:21:52):
You might lose your dignity.

(00:21:54):
And those things should matter for some.

(00:21:57):
Yeah.

(00:21:58):
Yeah.

(00:21:58):
I mean, it's about more than just the law.

(00:22:00):
It's about we have a society that we would like to preserve.

(00:22:03):
And that also includes preserving businesses.

(00:22:06):
All right.

(00:22:07):
So I am going to tell you a story about the law.

(00:22:12):
unhinged thoughts that people often have before they become parents,

(00:22:17):
and then how parenthood changes that reality.

(00:22:19):
And then I have some questions for you about that.

(00:22:22):
So I,

(00:22:24):
all through college,

(00:22:25):
I was a nanny,

(00:22:25):
I had spent a lot of time around kids,

(00:22:27):
I felt confident that like,

(00:22:29):
I knew kids,

(00:22:30):
probably too confident,

(00:22:31):
like,

(00:22:31):
you know,

(00:22:31):
every childless person.

(00:22:34):
So when I got pregnant with my oldest child,

(00:22:37):
I had a good idea of what babies were like and how much work they involved.

(00:22:42):
And my husband had spent a lot of time around kids.

(00:22:46):
And we both had the privilege of having jobs where we could mostly work at home.

(00:22:51):
And what we, these two unhinged maniacs, believed is that we would not need any childcare.

(00:22:59):
We thought that we would have this baby,

(00:23:03):
And that we would work from home and we would put her in a bouncer and we would

(00:23:08):
hand her back and forth and it was all going to be fine.

(00:23:13):
And I remember my mother and mother-in-law getting progressively more nervous about

(00:23:17):
this and saying,

(00:23:18):
well,

(00:23:18):
you know,

(00:23:18):
maybe,

(00:23:19):
maybe we should interview some childcare providers.

(00:23:22):
And I remember my husband and me saying, oh, these boomers, they just don't know anything.

(00:23:28):
because of course we're socialized to just not listen to elders or to mothers.

(00:23:32):
And then,

(00:23:33):
you know,

(00:23:33):
lo and behold,

(00:23:35):
we had the baby and it turns out you can't just hand them back and forth while

(00:23:39):
you're working.

(00:23:40):
You actually do need childcare if you're a working parent and you probably need

(00:23:45):
childcare even if you're not a working parent because children are exhausting and

(00:23:50):
they need

(00:23:51):
And one of the things that I love about your work is first you acknowledge this

(00:23:56):
reality that I was in complete denial about.

(00:24:00):
But secondly,

(00:24:00):
during the pandemic,

(00:24:02):
I started to see a lot of rhetoric about how,

(00:24:05):
you know,

(00:24:06):
mothers are drowning without any additional context about who is drowning us,

(00:24:10):
why this is happening.

(00:24:12):
And motherhood is hard, but so is fatherhood.

(00:24:15):
And there's nothing innate to motherhood that has to mean mothers bear the full burden.

(00:24:19):
But of course,

(00:24:20):
we generally end up doing so because all of the systems that we live in teach us we

(00:24:25):
have to do that.

(00:24:27):
I would like to hear from you about what true family-friendly policies look like

(00:24:33):
and how we can implement them.

(00:24:35):
In some ways, it kind of feels like a pipe dream in this

(00:24:40):
But I know we can get there and I know that you're working on it.

(00:24:42):
So tell me a bit about that.

(00:24:45):
Well, I'm glad you started with this idea that for a lot of people, it isn't working.

(00:24:54):
Right?

(00:24:55):
And maybe people don't have a sense about why,

(00:25:00):
but it is not sustainable for people to feel like they are overworked at home,

(00:25:07):
overworked at work,

(00:25:09):
and just don't have the support for their families to thrive.

(00:25:13):
That feeling is palpable for a lot of folks.

(00:25:19):
And during the pandemic, we saw everything break, right?

(00:25:22):
Because schools closed,

(00:25:23):
child care centers closed,

(00:25:26):
and whatever informal support networks people were relying on,

(00:25:32):
those things broke.

(00:25:33):
And we realized that our care infrastructure was basically the unpaid and underpaid

(00:25:40):
labor of women.

(00:25:43):
And that was not actual real infrastructure.

(00:25:47):
And that was also not a thing that could survive any real testing of our time.

(00:25:57):
And millions of women left the workforce and weren't looking.

(00:26:01):
And it took us five years to build back to the levels we were before the pandemic.

(00:26:08):
And now women are leaving the workforce for, I guess,

(00:26:12):
And so what I will say is sometimes those are the indications of things not working

(00:26:18):
is that people leave work,

(00:26:21):
not because they don't need the money,

(00:26:22):
just because it is impossible for them to do.

(00:26:27):
And so there's a bunch of things that can make a difference.

(00:26:29):
Certainly having a significant investment in care policies can make a difference.

(00:26:36):
Things like childcare and paid leave

(00:26:40):
Things like services so that you could care for elders, aging, and disabled people.

(00:26:48):
And ensuring that the care workforce itself is strong and that requires them being

(00:26:54):
paid dignity wages,

(00:26:56):
having things like pathways to unionization.

(00:26:59):
So there's a bunch of things that would make our care infrastructure stronger and

(00:27:07):
are worthy of investment.

(00:27:10):
But it is also the case that employers can take a range of steps that actually make

(00:27:17):
it more possible.

(00:27:19):
You could have workplaces that allow for a range of flexible arrangements.

(00:27:24):
You have protections in place so that people don't experience discrimination anymore.

(00:27:30):
because of pregnancy or because of caregiving,

(00:27:33):
can ensure that people are paid fairly for their work so that they aren't getting

(00:27:38):
up every single day,

(00:27:40):
going to work,

(00:27:41):
working their butts off,

(00:27:43):
and then being paid basically 20% to 30% less than their male counterparts.

(00:27:52):
Ensuring that the work women are more likely to do is actually paid its worth.

(00:27:59):
and that the jobs of the future,

(00:28:02):
and there's been a lot of reporting on what those jobs might be,

(00:28:07):
but that they're jobs that women have a shot at and that the jobs that they do are

(00:28:12):
paid dignity wages.

(00:28:14):
So there's a whole suite of things that would actually make a difference in the

(00:28:21):
lives of families,

(00:28:23):
especially those who are parenting.

(00:28:27):
and in our economy so that more people can participate fully to the extent they

(00:28:34):
want in our economy.

(00:28:36):
We have to have the will to put those measures in place.

(00:28:40):
You can't just rely on looking into the good boss and the good job and that being a

(00:28:47):
thing that makes it work for everyone.

(00:28:51):
We've tried that.

(00:28:52):
That has been our pathway for a long time.

(00:28:55):
And we also can't just rely on the unpaid or the underpaid labor of women.

(00:29:01):
It doesn't work.

(00:29:03):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:29:05):
One of the things that y'all are working on that I'm really happy about is school

(00:29:10):
discipline and school push-out policies.

(00:29:14):
I think that often we have this idea that there's like women's issues and they're

(00:29:19):
cordoned off over here and then there's other issues.

(00:29:22):
But all of these issues, as you know, intersect.

(00:29:25):
And one thing that I am seeing,

(00:29:27):
particularly after the pandemic with so many of my friends,

(00:29:31):
is their children are running into problems at school.

(00:29:35):
And the school systems are essentially unwilling to properly care for their children.

(00:29:41):
And these kids are getting pushed out of school.

(00:29:43):
I have a friend right now who has got three kids, and it's been like

(00:29:48):
falling dominoes that every time a child reaches a certain age,

(00:29:53):
the school stops accommodating the child's special needs,

(00:29:56):
starts treating the child as a discipline problem.

(00:30:00):
And it's clear that that child is being pushed out of school.

(00:30:02):
And so now my friend has three children that she is homeschooling because she does

(00:30:08):
not feel that it is safe to send her children to a school where they're being

(00:30:13):
mistreated.

(00:30:13):
They're not being accommodated.

(00:30:15):
There's all kinds of layers of racism.

(00:30:18):
And so we see this is negatively affecting her children.

(00:30:21):
It's negatively affecting her ability to earn a living.

(00:30:25):
And it's, of course, negatively affecting the entire community.

(00:30:28):
So I'm wondering if you can talk to me,

(00:30:31):
particularly since I know I have a lot of listeners who aren't parents or who don't

(00:30:35):
have children who are in school yet,

(00:30:38):
about what's happening with school discipline and how that is affecting us all.

(00:30:45):
And this is the right time to have this conversation because around the country,

(00:30:49):
people are readying to send their kids back to school.

(00:30:53):
And one of the things that should have been not at all a surprise is that a lot of

(00:31:00):
kids and families emerge from the pandemic unwell and with actual significant

(00:31:09):
mental health challenges.

(00:31:11):
And rather than investing deeply in counseling and supports for this trauma that

(00:31:19):
young people had lived through,

(00:31:21):
they lived through death and illness.

(00:31:25):
There was a lot young people were holding.

(00:31:28):
Rather than reinvesting in counselors and social workers and nurses who could actually make

(00:31:35):
to ensure that young people were well as they were learning.

(00:31:40):
There are some places that went straight to discipline or maybe even policing kids

(00:31:49):
out of school.

(00:31:51):
And this is a cycle that continues and continues.

(00:31:55):
And we keep learning the same lesson around if you fail to invest and support young

(00:32:02):
people and criminalize them for the behavior that is typically kid behavior,

(00:32:12):
You both don't help that young person in real time.

(00:32:16):
You set them off a life trajectory that is harmful.

(00:32:21):
And for girls in particular,

(00:32:23):
the criminalization that especially Black and Indigenous girls face in schools,

(00:32:30):
we have this added layer that it is often overlooked.

(00:32:35):
that they don't necessarily feed the narrative,

(00:32:39):
but they are pushed out often for these vague violations,

(00:32:46):
for having a bad attitude,

(00:32:48):
as if there's some consistent standard for that,

(00:32:53):
or for things like

(00:32:54):
dress code violations or hair code violations.

(00:33:00):
What if instead of policing and punishing girls,

(00:33:05):
we just invested in them as the leaders that they can be?

(00:33:10):
What if we supported young people who've been through trauma

(00:33:14):
with counselors and social workers rather than policing.

(00:33:21):
There was just an opportunity to paint a different picture and create schools where

(00:33:29):
young people can be healthy and thrive rather than spaces where they don't want to

(00:33:35):
be,

(00:33:35):
where they're treated terribly,

(00:33:37):
and then pushed out and left.

(00:33:39):
And for girls who become women in particular,

(00:33:44):
What that ends up looking like is they are pushed out sometimes into the criminal

(00:33:51):
justice system,

(00:33:53):
but definitely when they're pushed out,

(00:33:54):
they're pushed out into poverty.

(00:33:57):
And that has tail effects sometimes generationally.

(00:34:02):
Yeah, it's really scary.

(00:34:04):
A friend of mine runs an organization called Motherhood Beyond Bars,

(00:34:08):
where they work with pregnant incarcerated women.

(00:34:12):
Seeing the data they publish has been so disheartening,

(00:34:16):
like five to 10% of women in jails and prisons are pregnant.

(00:34:21):
And the most common reason they get arrested is bad checks,

(00:34:26):
just the sorts of things that we should never be punishing people in that way for.

(00:34:32):
So it's awful.

(00:34:33):
And it begins with these school situations.

(00:34:36):
So I want to ask you,

(00:34:37):
I think probably as our final question,

(00:34:39):
do you have any tips for women who want to more effectively advocate for themselves

(00:34:44):
and for their children within the legal system and in other formal systems like

(00:34:49):
schools?

(00:34:53):
There's so much that people can do, especially in their own community.

(00:34:59):
And I often think it's better if you do it together.

(00:35:02):
So my first tip is gather with someone.

(00:35:07):
If we're talking about schools,

(00:35:08):
gather with other parents who probably are sharing the same concern.

(00:35:13):
you have and approach the issue together.

(00:35:17):
If we're talking about a workplace gathered with coworkers and who,

(00:35:22):
again,

(00:35:22):
are probably sharing the same concern.

(00:35:26):
The second thing is that you probably have all sorts of rights that you may not be aware of.

(00:35:33):
And so I encourage you to look them up.

(00:35:35):
We have lots of information on the National Women's Law Center website.

(00:35:40):
There may be community groups that outline what your rights are in your school

(00:35:46):
community,

(00:35:46):
for example,

(00:35:48):
but understand your rights so that you feel a little bit safer in your advocacy.

(00:35:54):
And then the last step I have is to really share information.

(00:36:00):
Many people assume that everyone is tuning in to the exact same things that they

(00:36:05):
are tuning into.

(00:36:07):
But we are in this very strange time in our history where we are overwhelmed with

(00:36:15):
content,

(00:36:16):
overwhelmed with information,

(00:36:18):
and it is hard to stay on top of basic things.

(00:36:23):
So if you decide every week you're gonna share information about a thing you care

(00:36:29):
about,

(00:36:30):
you will be making a difference with your friends,

(00:36:32):
with your networks,

(00:36:33):
with your family.

(00:36:35):
Start with,

(00:36:36):
you know,

(00:36:37):
people are more likely to trust information when it comes from people they know.

(00:36:42):
So if you see yourself as someone who can take that on, you will be making a huge difference.

(00:36:49):
That's such good advice.

(00:36:50):
I also want to focus on something you said at the beginning of the podcast,

(00:36:55):
which is that it's often about just going where there's urgency and where something

(00:36:59):
presents itself.

(00:37:01):
I think it's

(00:37:03):
You know, we all have the things that we are good at.

(00:37:05):
And often I think it's about just doing the next best, next right thing when something comes up.

(00:37:11):
No one can do everything.

(00:37:12):
So you just have to do what's there in front of you.

(00:37:15):
That's right.

(00:37:18):
Fatima, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

(00:37:21):
This has been wonderful and educational listeners.

(00:37:25):
I will put all of Fatima's information in the show notes because there's a lot of it.

(00:37:30):
And we will be back in two weeks.