00:00:12:32 - 00:00:35:24
Unknown
Welcome to our weekly livestream recording of the Emanating podcast series devoted to acquisition entrepreneurs, search funds and how Kobold is in the UK. EU and beyond. We discussed the topics and challenges that impact SMB succession, and I explored the highs and lows of searching, acquiring, owning and operating small and medium sized businesses. This week we're back with a more familiar format the ever popular buy side breakdowns.

00:00:35:24 - 00:01:01:04
Unknown
But once again, it's a slightly different line up for you. I'm joined by my friend and colleague, Tobi Johnson. Welcome, Tobi. Thanks for joining me today. So happy to join now three been in the background in many of these podcasts and finally come and show my face on one. I'm delighted to do so. Absolutely. Absolutely. So for those of you that don't know Tobi and if you had any interactions with this bunch before, you probably will have spoken to him at least once.

00:01:01:07 - 00:01:28:30
Unknown
Toby heads up most of the sell side Activity app is crunched, which makes him the perfect guest host for a buy side breakdown today. So with that in mind, Tobi, what company are we looking at today Yet to today we'll be taking a closer look at a logistics and transport business based in the north west England. What makes this company particularly interesting is the way it's been built around three different distinct revenue sources.

00:01:28:30 - 00:01:56:01
Unknown
I'm not sure if it came out like that, but there's a professional driver training, a busy road haulage operation and then a pallet storage within their warehouse. And I believe that one warehouse is like 10,000 square feet, which pretty much accompanies all of those those three different revenue streams. It's not so definitely a lot to break into. And an interesting, interesting proposition for the buy side breakdown.

00:01:56:03 - 00:02:14:08
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. Now, this one's a bit of a mystery because usually when we find these listings, I can find out what the who the company are and we don't divulge on the podcast at all. But I normally can get a bit of a background in, but I can't seem to find this company, which is it makes it all the more, more of a enigma for us.

00:02:14:11 - 00:02:50:11
Unknown
It's very elusive. Very elusive. Let's let's go through some of the numbers here. So the asking price that they've got in this business is £1,000,000, and that's with two and a half million turnover. The net profit is undisclosed, but the gross profit is 700,000 a year. Yeah, super interesting. I think just right off the bat, even even seeing that they say that their turnovers around 2.5 million, they actually quote almost 2.5 million and that gross profit in excess of 700,000.

00:02:50:12 - 00:03:29:14
Unknown
I wonder how almost that 2.5 that now how much an access that 700,000 is. But yeah having that 25 to maybe around 30% gross profit I don't think is I think that falls pretty much average within the industry. I think it usually spans from like 20 to 40%. But it mainly thinking about, you know, how that structured, if they put a lot of those overheads into the cost of goods sold, like there's a lot of different ways that the accounts you can go about structuring that I've seen businesses that have majority of stuff just placed into the overheads and then vice versa.

00:03:29:14 - 00:03:51:29
Unknown
Like I just explained, a lot of businesses put way too much into the cost of it sold and then it looks like the gross profit is just mediocre when it when it could actually be able to either. So like I said, this one does fall into that average range. But it it'll be interesting getting into the numbers if somebody does reach out on an interested basis to at least see what the breakdown is there.

00:03:51:32 - 00:04:08:27
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And this is one of the reasons that I'm frustrated. I couldn't find the country because usually I would try and sort of dig them up and look at their accounts and Gareth would do that. He's he's actually the best at doing that since we're kind of missing him this week because he's found a couple that I haven't managed to dig up over the over the years.

00:04:08:30 - 00:04:45:04
Unknown
When we're talking about prices, I think one thing to flagged straight away is that that £1 million asking price doesn't include the fleet plant or equipment. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was super interesting because usually with with like a business of this size obviously the gross profit around 700,000 or above 700,000 that may be. But how much actually goes to the bottom line or that usual term that's thrown out in the industry of even discussing even the multiples on disclosing their net profit kind of just pops up as like a red flag for me because it's like how much are they actually cash flowing?

00:04:45:05 - 00:05:06:14
Unknown
And if they want a million and that's not even talking about their assets. For me, this is just jumping out as this will probably become a net deal and sometimes I'm not sure how common this is and the logistics industry, but there would be some goodwill or maybe they built some processes that that they can kind of attach a little bit of a premium on.

00:05:06:14 - 00:05:33:25
Unknown
So their net asset value, that's what NAV means for everyone who's not a announced. The person who's listening. But yeah, it it'll be really interesting to see like what that that gross profit breaks down to at becoming like net profit and those margins that I was talking about that even a margin because yeah 1 million on top of their net asset value or asset value, I'm not sure how much they're leveraged here.

00:05:33:28 - 00:05:52:29
Unknown
There's really not a lot of financials to go off of, but yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you need a detailed inventory list with, with, you know, the fleet plant equipment stuff in there, some fair market value, some market against. We also I'd be really interested to see the breakdown of where that turnover is coming from, from those three sort of avenues of the business.

00:05:52:29 - 00:06:18:07
Unknown
Because if a large portion of that is coming from the training side, then I don't think that that valuation is too much of a problem. You know, the 1 million from the from the 700 K gross because you can understand the portability of that training school and the name that they built up and, you know, the prestige that they might have and the list of drivers that they trade and all of those things you think could could move over.

00:06:18:07 - 00:06:47:28
Unknown
I think if it's mainly coming from the whole IT side, that becomes a bit more of a problem because obviously that 700 K profit isn't accessible to you unless you pay the extra on top for the fleet plant equipment, unless you are doing this as part of a roll up or you already own, you know, a haulage based business in the north west anyway, and how much of it comes from the storage side, because the pallet based storage is obviously a 10,000 square foot warehouse in the northwest, but that is also not included in this price and get fair market rents for that on top.

00:06:47:28 - 00:07:05:01
Unknown
So yeah, I'd be I'd be really interested to see what the breakdown is for what they want cos they're looking for, for those assets and you know where this income is coming from. Like I said, if it's primarily coming from training then then I don't think it's a problem if most of it's coming from the haulage. Slightly different.

00:07:05:03 - 00:07:41:19
Unknown
Yeah. It's, it's interesting because they do actually mention that the haulage receipts account for approximately 1.8 of that, a 2.5 turnover. Okay. So that leaves what, 700,000 to be divided against their training and their and their warehouse activities. So if that's 50 5050 split, that's 350 on both ends. Like that's still pretty minor. So I'm wondering they either have to be either just an avenue in which the owner seems, you know, why not go down this route?

00:07:41:19 - 00:08:18:18
Unknown
Because it will help and be synergistic to the overall play of their haulage or another has to be some bonus for just extreme the cash generative. Those are my two because it's because they have only £700,000 split between those two avenues. It's just interesting to say the least. It is interesting. I do absolutely see the value. I mean, obviously, if you're if you've got excess storage space and he wants to rent that out, totally see whatever value you make from that, it's better than of an empty space with the driver training.

00:08:18:19 - 00:08:38:11
Unknown
I think that's super interesting because I'm not sure how up to date you are. Toby on the on the on the driver shortage that we had during COVID in the UK. But so in 2021, there was a real issue that we had with drivers in the UK. So I think it was in the kind of aftermath of Brexit.

00:08:38:11 - 00:09:03:19
Unknown
We've lost a lot of EU based drivers and the minimum wage had gone up and driver wages kind of hadn't risen with it. And they got to a point where I think it's almost 50% of haulage companies in the UK were advertising for drivers and there were lots of shelves stocked in the UK and it was national news and they were even talking about like drafting in the army to drive articulated lorries to deliver food and goods and it was a whole big issue.

00:09:03:19 - 00:09:22:00
Unknown
So I think that having the training school there, not only, you know, it brought a lot of new drivers to the market, you know, hearing about that issue. There was also a bump in wages for HGV drivers, which obviously put more drivers to training. And again, if their drivers queuing up to be trained, then having a train to school makes sense.

00:09:22:03 - 00:09:41:26
Unknown
It also would make sense to have a steady stream of drivers coming through to their company because adequate looking vacancy rates are still at about 20%. So, you know, one in five haulage companies in the UK still don't have enough drivers. So even if yeah, I read some somewhere that also that the turnover for drivers for some reason is extremely high.

00:09:41:26 - 00:10:07:33
Unknown
I was wondering if you also saw that that statistic. Yes I think going around yeah I did. There was an article about this in the Financial Times recently and they were talking about, you know, the turnover. I think it comes back to wages and also sort of unsociable hours, I guess, especially if you're doing long distance driving. You know, it's a very heavily regulated industry in terms of, you know, the amount of times that drivers can go on for.

00:10:08:01 - 00:10:28:30
Unknown
So if you're doing, you know, pan-European trips, I think you can drive far. I think it's up to 12, 12 and a half hours, something like that. Don't quote me on that. Any HGV drivers out there before you have to stop and rest for a set period of time and you have to be able to sleep. And so, you know, you're away for kind of days at a time and hours can change and traffic jams and, you know, all sorts of things like that.

00:10:28:30 - 00:10:52:32
Unknown
So I think that once upon a time when drivers were particularly, well, renumeration, I think that was fine. But I think these days where, you know, I've seen some adverts out there for HGV drivers at sort of 14, £15 an hour. If you think that minimum wage is about £12.20 now you kind of think, you know, I could go and work somewhere for minimum wage and not have to be away from my family for a couple of days at a time.

00:10:52:32 - 00:11:12:25
Unknown
So I can definitely see that still be a problem. But again, it makes you think, it makes you think about like why the turnover so high, because like obviously there's a lot of training needed to become one of these drivers. So is it just because they get better offers and that's why they keep going on to a bigger and better position within a bit longer?

00:11:12:28 - 00:11:28:09
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, it might, it might also be that it seems more attractive than it is when they go into it. I think that, you know, I've, I've, I thought that during COVID and I thought, well, you know, it can't be that bad. I sit in the truck and listen to music and I don't have to talk to anybody for a couple of days at a time.

00:11:28:09 - 00:11:56:25
Unknown
And maybe the reality of it isn't great. Is that the fantasy of it? It might just be one of those things that once you get into it, you realize it's it's not. It's quite, quite as fun as it seems. But yes, and there's a lot of drive training required. You have to once I think it's once every five years, you have to do 35 hours worth of training, which again lends itself well to this business having the training school, because you have a steady resupply of clients coming back and doing the training again and again.

00:11:56:28 - 00:12:21:33
Unknown
And, you know, high turnover is not a problem for this business. If they do have a pipeline of people coming through that training school and high turnover drive, it just means more people being trained. So where it probably is an issue for lots of haulage companies, if you have a bolted on driving driver training school, see, and maybe that explains why even if they're not making huge money from it, I guess it kind of plugs one of the big problems of haulage, which is, like you said, turnover.

00:12:22:02 - 00:12:56:13
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, that would definitely be an interesting metric to really look at to see what what their and also what their utilization within the training is like. I believe they mentioned on the on the website listing around 25 were able to fit in like the singular classroom that they have. So yeah, if they're actually getting 25 drivers into each course or each training program, what that training for program even looks like, if it's fully online, you know, these days everything digitization of practically everything is, is imminent.

00:12:56:16 - 00:13:15:31
Unknown
So yeah, super interesting get into the the nitty gritty of that training and see that see the metrics and see actually how it is from a operators standpoint. Absolutely. You know, is there you know, all the their instructors and coaches sort of in-house or is that somebody that they have to pay a fee to to come in? How often are they booked?

00:13:16:00 - 00:13:38:15
Unknown
Are there opportunities to expand that by offering digital portions through colleges in different regions and maybe they come in to do practical stuff? I do not know enough about HGV Driver training, but I'm guessing there probably some avenues for expansion there. Well, luckily on their listing, it also says that they have a full complement of staff dedicated to the training side of the business.

00:13:38:15 - 00:14:00:09
Unknown
So someone comes in and they don't have much knowledge on it. I've no idea what a full complement of staff means in that in that area, but it would be interesting to break that down for them. Well, I mean, if they have staff there all of the time, you know, a full complement of staff, as you say, then I'm guessing maybe they are fairly regularly booked and this isn't an issue.

00:14:00:09 - 00:14:18:23
Unknown
So then again, I suppose we have to go back to that 700 K that's left over that they're making up that revenue and say, you know, how much of that comes from the training and how much of it comes from the pallet storage? I mean actually I don't think 5050 would be fair because they'd have to be storing a hell of a lot of pallets to be making 350 K a year for me, I would guess.

00:14:18:23 - 00:14:38:16
Unknown
So maybe it is more heavily weighted. So even in turnover? Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Now that, that it's about right. You mentioned a 10,000 square foot. Yes. So I've got some other small business facts here that we haven't covered so the family run business which is always a good thing, you know, hopefully I've got a good reputation within industry.

00:14:38:19 - 00:14:58:32
Unknown
They've been around for almost 15 years, which is the magic number and base crunch. So we're all kind of established business markers in 15 years. Plus we say that's the mark of a company that's, you know, survived a couple of recessions and is fairly robust. So that's a definitely a positive. They are divi as a C ILC and Stu, I approved.

00:14:58:32 - 00:15:36:27
Unknown
So they are approved for all training and drivers. I think the reality is the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport. So they're completely covered. They're I think a little bit of research into this and anybody coming in and buying the company doesn't need to have any sort of training of their own in order to maintain this. But they will simply to maintain the memberships that maybe some additional staff training needed and they need to be certainly aware of of this and which kind of members of staff they need to retain because I would imagine that if the owner doesn't need to have any particular certification, I'm guessing at least one member of staff would need

00:15:36:27 - 00:15:59:26
Unknown
to. So that's something when it comes to staff retention, you know, you need to be careful that you are either ready to retain or hire a new member of staff that is knowledgeable in each of these sort of facets. Again, unless you are already a haulage company or you're part of a a roll up of companies like this and and you can kind of facilitate that off the back.

00:15:59:29 - 00:16:20:09
Unknown
Yeah. I wonder if the full suite of staff they have for that training, if that knowledge is is within their, if it's actually within the owners, that'll be a pretty big thing going forward because you know, you have to retain the owners for at least a year that to to get all this knowledge out of them unless unless that's with the the management team and that staff already in place.

00:16:20:12 - 00:16:45:10
Unknown
Yeah. And I think that's fairly standard these days as well to want to retain the owner for for a while. Yeah. Yeah. I mean so we for anybody that hasn't seen it yet, there's a really great episode from that we could like for this year to acquire some post in which has the guys from Astral Holdings and Moon Base and they were talking about, you know, how long they like to retain business owners for in the knowledge that they can impart and stuff.

00:16:45:10 - 00:17:05:09
Unknown
And I think it becomes fairly standard now. But I think that it also raises, you know, a point which we always have to bring up on this podcast, which is, you know, is there a risk there that if owner leaves from a family run business, how many client relationships suffer? And again, I know that's teach people to suck eggs at this point and everybody needs to think about that.

00:17:05:09 - 00:17:52:04
Unknown
But I think that's sort of key. Post independence is particularly important with family run businesses. Yeah, yeah. It does seem like they have a bit of a management structure in place, so just from the listing. But yeah, it definitely is. If there that that client head who talks to everyone. Yeah, it's really important to see what businesses will believe once they leave, especially if they're asking a million on top of that that net asset value base because you know, you'll probably have to, you know, do this as a structure and out and dependent on how many clients stay with you or you know but put some limitation of warranties on that that client retention there.

00:17:52:07 - 00:18:14:30
Unknown
Yeah absolutely. I mean that's an interesting point. What would you you know, how would you look at structuring a deal like this? Would you look at maybe doing some sort of asset backed lending if you wanted to take the, you know, the assets from them and, you know, the plant and the storage and then do some sort of, now for the rest, like how would you what would be your ideal deal structure for a company like this?

00:18:14:33 - 00:18:58:29
Unknown
Well, to be fair, it's pretty hard to get into just because there's not much information here. Sure. There they're alluding to assets, but assets is that a fleet in a fleet can be three vehicles or 20. There's a lot of unknowns. So I would first off, you know, get somebody who knows the industry, maybe someone who's also mechanical, who can inspect the fleet value that on, you know, from somebody I trust and then probably go from there the asking price of a million on top of whatever that net asset value price will be.

00:18:58:31 - 00:19:25:09
Unknown
I think that's a bit rough. You know, getting owners expectations down from that will be difficult because it's it's 700 gross profit. So I really I can't imagine that this business is turning over anything more than or cash flowing more than 300 to 400. And that's saying that they have very minimal overheads and that, you know, half of that or almost half of that is going to the bottom line.

00:19:25:12 - 00:19:52:10
Unknown
So what you would imagine with this kind of business, that minimum I would imagine minimal overheads would be likely because there is, there are a lot of things to be, doesn't sound like it. There are a lot of things to pay for. There are a lot of things to you know, upkeep and maintenance and vehicle costs and yeah, I mean, again, I suppose it depends on how much they've put in to operational costs and you know, how they've structured that.

00:19:52:10 - 00:20:25:28
Unknown
As you said sort of earlier on, it says they have a full team of highly skilled staff on the books. So like if they're properly in the overhead sets, you know, do you mean like maintenance staff and that kind of thing and whether they have all that in-house. Yeah. And they say they have a full time transport manager, fleet manager, administrations manager, full two time logistic planners, 18 full time class one drivers like all of these things.

00:20:25:31 - 00:20:50:14
Unknown
And I bet some of them can go into the cost of goods sold and likely from just this a percentage basis and I'm not exactly sure how logistics industry works. I'm not I'm not I don't specialize, obviously, in that industry. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see just the breakdown of where those costs fall into. And like I said, just how much is going to the bottom line.

00:20:50:14 - 00:21:20:00
Unknown
Because if you see like I said, 300 or around 300, but let's just say even at a4x multiple, that's 1.2. So they're already asking for a million on top of their their net asset value. That's why I think this will definitely become just a deal that will just come down to the assets and the value. And then the owner with that a million on top is definitely looking for some goodwill, which isn't common.

00:21:20:02 - 00:21:47:06
Unknown
So unless like I said, it's a brilliant and we built business, some alliteration that just got me tongue twisted. Yeah, it's going to be it's going to be difficult. There's definitely going to be some hurdles to overcome here, but at the same time, it's diversified each of its different revenue streams can complement each other. So there's definitely some quality aspects about this business.

00:21:47:09 - 00:22:25:26
Unknown
But the numbers that they allude to, it's just not specific enough to really make an informed decision. Yeah, I totally agree. You raise some interesting points in that we talked about seven different staff members that they had you talking about sort of logistics and or transport management. And I would guess that there is a huge amount of software and systems required to manage a fleet and a business like this because like I said, you've got drivers traveling all over the world for different sort of regulatory bodies needing to be informed and even I guess now with Brexit you're going to need visas and also things like this.

00:22:25:26 - 00:22:44:14
Unknown
You need staff management and again, they need to be rested for certain amounts of times that's going to affect your timetabling. I guess there's a huge amount of back office work that is going on here and obviously this is not something that you would get from a listing like this and it would come out in the wash as you start to have your more subtly sparked conversations.

00:22:44:14 - 00:23:14:00
Unknown
But I'd be interested in seeing how efficient those processes are, if there's any room for improvements there. You know how a 15 year old family business I don't want to make any assumptions, but maybe they, you know, how much have the updated and improved in over those 15 years? Well operated successfully for 15 years. So apparently they've had some unsuccessful operations, potentially private prior to those 15 years.

00:23:14:00 - 00:23:34:22
Unknown
They had some unsuccessful ones. But yeah, I'd love to know what is going on there and whether there are some again, some operational efficiencies that can be made. Is there anything again, you know, if I'm looking at expansion, I would look probably my first port of call would be in the training because I'd be easier to expand, I would imagine.

00:23:34:25 - 00:23:54:22
Unknown
But again, this is me coming at this as somebody who isn't from a haulage background and does see absolute value in this business. But I think if you come from a haulage background, you know, who had been great for this call actually would be our friend Charlie Norton. Charlie knows this inside out, so I'd love to know what Charlie thinks transness.

00:23:54:25 - 00:24:11:01
Unknown
But yeah, if you come from that kind of background, you're going to know probably even at a glance from this listing a little bit more than we can glean from it. And maybe they could even figure out who the company is. But yeah, what are those operating operational efficiencies? Where can improvements be made? How is best to expand?

00:24:11:01 - 00:24:36:27
Unknown
It says that you can move this company because it said that they're in a rented premises, but I would be. Every company is movable, right? Every company, as long as this one seems particularly difficult. I think also as well, you would probably lose any goodwill that's been built up around that sort of family name. You part. The reason that you're buying this business is because it has been family run for 15 years and it's built up a name and a reputation.

00:24:36:30 - 00:25:00:12
Unknown
And I think that you you know, you disrupt that local goodwill by relocating of the outsider to the it just because of family owned businesses. That's that's a big point to bring out because a lot of acquirers don't like them in businesses because either the families to built into the business and maybe like the grandfather selling but there's still nieces nephews, sons, daughters in the business.

00:25:00:14 - 00:25:27:15
Unknown
And, you know, once they leave and there's different operation oversight, it gets a bit of a sticky sometimes. You know, you have to make some decisions that pivot or switch around the operations of anyone who's existing. Obviously, this can go for regular employees, too. But sure, I think there's usually more of a tendency for those people in the family to get a little more bothered by change than than regular employees.

00:25:27:17 - 00:25:49:13
Unknown
Yeah, Yeah, I can I can totally see that. I suppose that raises another interesting point as to if this is a family run business, why is somebody in the family not taking over? Yeah, that is another good point that yeah, I really considered. Yeah. If this is, you know, owned by mum, dad, grandma, granddad, whoever it might be, why isn't somebody else in the family stepping up and taking over.

00:25:49:16 - 00:26:10:21
Unknown
Why is there no sort of succession happening here, which is maybe because that net profit margin is actually super low because it's undisclosed. And, you know, my assumption may be that we can't we can't cast aspersions, so we don't know. But yes, maybe I mean, that immediate when we looked at this list, that was a kind of a red flag that that threw me off.

00:26:10:21 - 00:26:36:27
Unknown
I mean, you don't always get a huge amount of detail in these things, but you have to have, you know, turnover and gross listed, but not net. I think it immediately does make you worry. It says in the listing high profitability, but that's in a broker's listing. And I don't know what that means. So yeah, you reach out and they're like, gross profitability, not, not profitability.

00:26:36:30 - 00:27:02:13
Unknown
But again, you know, it comes back to how that structured. Yeah, I think that it this is a really interesting business. I think that if you are looking for sort of scalable business for multiple levers, it's something you could look at. I think if you're a roll up operator in logistics, warehousing or even in education, actually, I think they could be a sort of logical move for you.

00:27:02:16 - 00:27:32:29
Unknown
I think if you're maybe an embryo candidate with a bit of sort of regional and an inside knowledge, I think maybe it would be good for you. Yeah, I think maybe that. Sorry, It would just yeah, yeah, it would be interesting. I know you mentioned scalability of of the training. It says the classroom can accommodate 25 people. So the usage metrics I think will be really key in what an operator or new operator can do with this business.

00:27:32:29 - 00:27:59:29
Unknown
Like how much is the warehouse being utilized on a on a higher basis, How much is the training really booked out? And then also, like, how are those systems rent, Is it on a spreadsheet, Is it on a book or is these online processes built and and ready for scalability? So yeah, I think also an understanding of how the teaching has to be delivered for this because is there a certain amount of this that needs to be in person?

00:27:59:29 - 00:28:23:07
Unknown
Could there be a heavy lean towards digitization? Could you partner with other organizations and colleges and, you know, while there is still a shortage of truck drivers, is this something you can work with local colleges to to put programs into? And that's something that maybe you need to look, we have insider knowledge for. And again, maybe why somebody in education might might consider a move for a company like this.

00:28:23:10 - 00:28:50:29
Unknown
Yeah. Okay. Look, I think that leads us on to the conclusion of our episode. So this is where we do a sort of buy or pass thumbs up or thumbs down. So Toby, if this is you today looking at this listing, obviously we need a little bit more information, but where do you lean bypass? I think there's a lot of unknowns.

00:28:50:31 - 00:29:32:14
Unknown
Obviously, like you just alluded to, I'd want to know the net asset value. I'd want to know the bottom line that profitability on how they're valuing that assets versus, you know, someone who I trust, a mechanic, whatever I'm into the business and, you know, seeing if they're even close on valuation on estimated CapEx because with with a view with a business with this high assets and it probably being a net asset value deal, the CapEx post-acquisition is needed to be estimated by not only myself but a professional in the industry.

00:29:32:17 - 00:29:56:27
Unknown
But just because of that, that £1 million on top of the fleet value or the net asset value, it's going to have to be passed. For me, I just think that's going to it's going to put the owners thoughts about valuation on the business too much out of the out of my wheelhouse or, you know, if I was in acquirers, we'll house How about you, Alfie?

00:29:56:30 - 00:30:16:18
Unknown
I think I agree with you on that. I think I was leaning buy when I sort of first looked at this, but I think you're right. There is a lot of information still to be found. I think potentially if I was in the industry, like I said, if I was already looking at roll ups in this, if I knew the industry very well, I would definitely look for more information on it.

00:30:16:21 - 00:30:34:18
Unknown
But I do think that if the financial outlook was as rosy as the listings as it was, then they would have put the information in the listing just how I feel about that. So I think if you are in the haulage industry or you're in education, I think it's one to maybe get a bit more info on and have that initial call.

00:30:34:18 - 00:30:57:27
Unknown
But I think for me it's also going to be a pass. Yeah, it is. The utilization is also a big a big key there. And then the owner's position within the business is, is fully dependent on the owner. They do mention they have like pretty turnkey operations set in place for at least the trainings. So is that is that the same with the the warehouse hire and the elements?

00:30:57:30 - 00:31:18:19
Unknown
Sure. And then they also mentioned that the warehouse is like as a fair market value. But you know, what lease do they have in place? Is that renewing soon? The warehouse seems to be pretty detrimental to the operations. A lot of factors, a lot of factors that can put it in a very positively, but also can impact it very negatively as well.

00:31:18:19 - 00:31:37:03
Unknown
So that's actually a point we didn't raise. Is that all we rent in this facility from them fair market value or is it rented from somebody else? If it is working for somebody else, why we rent in 10,000 square feet that we then have to hire some of it out to somebody else. So yeah, every, every, every avenue we go down, there were more questions than answers.

00:31:37:03 - 00:31:55:23
Unknown
So which isn't necessarily a bad thing, you know? No, these could have amazing answers. They could have amazing answers. But as I said, if they have amazing answers, it used to be in the listing. So, yeah, from both of us, it's going to be a pass. But I would love to hear what you view is in this thing.

00:31:55:23 - 00:32:16:30
Unknown
So if you've got a different view on this, please do let us know if you particularly have any knowledge in this industry. I'd love to hear from you. And if Toby and I have completely missed something that haulage and education experts know, then please do let us know. Type it in the comments, put it in the links, in comments on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:32:16:32 - 00:32:37:22
Unknown
For those of you that are busy Crunch users, we have some really exciting updates coming for you soon, so please do keep an eye out on your emails and also make sure that you're looking out for the ECI awards hosted by Gerard Edelman, which should be soon and myself and the BIS Crunch team will be there. So if you are coming along, please do come and say hi.

00:32:37:22 - 00:32:51:07
Unknown
I will drop a link to get your tickets at the bottom of this video. But yeah, until next time, keep on crunching. Keep on crunching. Thanks, Toby. Cheers, Alfie.