Emma Pownall 0:00
Today I'm joined by Tim Purcell Datel's R&D director. I've worked with Tim for many years, and we've sat alongside each other in the boardroom for nearly a decade, and Tim's helped many businesses with their tech strategy and how to embrace new and evolving technologies. He has an approach to tech that I really wanted to share with you, which is one of evolution alongside digital transformation. So I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Emma Pownall 0:33
Hi, Tim, thanks for joining me. I obviously know you well. Worked with you a long time, but for those in our audience that don't know you. How would you describe your background and what you're passionate about?

Tim Purcell 0:44
Okay, well, thanks for having me. So in terms of background, I've been in the tech industry for about 3035, years. So predominantly, you know, originally, as a developer. So I've always been involved in technology from a development point of view, all the way through to being the R and D director for Datel. I think anybody that knows me knows I'm absolutely mad about technology and about how technology is evolving, and about how businesses are adopting and utilising that technology. So and I've worked with probably hundreds of businesses over the years in terms of advising them and guiding them and, you know, working with them to to achieve those aspirations through tech, really,

Emma Pownall 1:27
yeah, and we're talking about digital transformation today. Let's start there and with the basics. What does digital transformation mean to you?

Tim Purcell 1:38
Okay, so transformation, I guess, as its name suggests, really is a very transformative approach to a business. So taking a an entire technology ecosystem and generally replacing most of that. So so transforming what a business is capable from a digital strategy perspective, and then replacing that and building a new technical infrastructure, a digital infrastructure.

Emma Pownall 2:08
And from your experience, how has that concept helped or hindered businesses over the last few years?

Tim Purcell 2:16
I think it's probably helped and hindered different businesses. I think those businesses that need to adopt new technology. So where technology is absolutely hindering their ambitions, it's it's stopping them from progressing. Digital transformation is quite a key starting point for those businesses to evolve and to support their their function. But I think also it can be, it can be a hindrance to businesses. So, so businesses going into a transformational project without the full buy in of the business, without the right cultural approach, without the right strategy, really, I think transformational projects can become long wielding they can become cumbersome, they can overrun and they can they can also cost more than there was originally foreseen.

Emma Pownall 3:08
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, isn't it, because it can feel like a utopia. Let's rip everything out, start again, change all our processes, and we'll gain a lot from that. But then that approach can also feel very disruptive to a business that has a job to do, has a business to run and profit to make as well. So can really leave people in a quandary about whether it is right or wrong to take a transformation approach?

Tim Purcell 3:38
Yeah, because I think you made a really good point there about how businesses they need to operate. They still need to keep the lights on, they still need to ship to customers. So pulling huge numbers of people out the business to satisfy transformational projects is difficult, and therefore elongates the timescales, because they're having to focus on the day to day and try not to disrupt that element of it, but also they need to give these projects the time that they need to be able to be successful. So I think that could be a huge challenge to an organisation that potentially is running reasonably lean and having the right culture, the right buy in also is quite important. So it takes quite a big mindset shift for a lot of those businesses, too, to be successful with those transformational projects.

Emma Pownall 4:27
Without naming any names. Are there any examples you've seen where digital change has been too ambitious or too fast or simply just didn't land with the business?

Tim Purcell 4:39
I think there's been a few, a few areas where transformation has been difficult. I think we've had situations where, again, I think you mentioned it ambitious. Too ambitious. I think some organisations have tried to look at to rip and replace everything. So take. An entire not just a system finance system out, but everything that wrapped around it. That's partly because the legacy systems are so ingrained with things that are built around it, then it's it's such a transformative process to rip all of those things out and to replace them. Can be too ambitious, and some of those businesses should have potentially taken a bit of a step back, looked at how they could evolve some of that process. Maybe replace some of the systems that are, well, basically unpick some of those systems that are wrapped around the core finance system, and then build from there, I think again, coming back to that culture piece, some some organisations have just not quite understood that whole culture and the whole business buy in, and tried to run a transformational project just through an individual project team, but without that fuller buy in. And I think that again, a project is pretty much doomed to failure right from the start there.

Emma Pownall 5:55
Yeah, I can imagine so. From knowing you, from working with you, I know your your preferred focus is more on digital evolution. Can you just explain a bit about what that means to you? As a phrase for me,

Tim Purcell 6:12
I guess, this describing it's quite difficult, because it's all to me, it just feels more natural, I guess. But evolution is more of an incremental gain. So rather than pulling apart an entire business system, business digital strategy, it's it's looking at that longer term growth, longer term value piece, but but replacing those areas that are going to generate more value for the for the business. So, so taking those incremental gains, replacing obvious failing parts of a system, Legacy parts of the system, but then building on that, and evolving on that over time, and taking a very fast fail approach. So change something if it doesn't work, go again, but, but looking at very much that that incremental gain approach,

Emma Pownall 7:03
yeah, and why do you think that sort of incremental people first approach helps businesses to embrace technology in a better way?

Tim Purcell 7:14
I think both transformation or wider transformation and evolution both have their place, but certainly the taking the more incremental approach can deliver value more quickly. It's easy to probably get the the the buy in across the organisation. You're not pulling an entire organisation, organisation apart to to fulfil an evolution project. You're you're focusing on key, key value areas. So I think there's a few different areas that that you probably would see as a, I guess, more of a a productive way of approaching that type of project. So like I say, taking individual areas the business, individual functions that you know you can add value to, and then taking a very incremental approach. So So investing time, investing a bit of effort, try and prove the concept is going to work, and then scale, and then roll with it, settle it down, and then move on to the next and next evolution project,

Emma Pownall 8:15
yeah. And how have you seen tech advancements and changes for business changed that ability to be more evolving and gradual than maybe years ago, when it was big, like we were talking about transformational change and big projects that took forever to to get to fruition.

Tim Purcell 8:41
I think there's probably a couple of factors really. I think cloud and subscription is one change. So I think what that's done is it's probably introduced a bit of a throwaway culture where systems are easy. It's easier to obtain. Businesses are identifying from a whole wide range of value add ons to core business systems. So very easy to identify. So businesses are, they're onboarding these systems more quickly. They're they're trying them, they're testing them. They're failing them, if, if, if they're not suitable, or they're implementing it much more quickly as well. So I think that that type of culture, that type of mindset, has changed. So people are businesses are very much more effective at bringing in a system quickly and then trying it and seeing if it gives them that that value add. So I think that's certainly a change that that's happened. I also think there's a there's been a mindset shift as well. So people are a lot more willing to to trial these things. They're a lot more willing to to research, to play around to to try and see where that that value add piece is coming from, and then very quickly move on again, if it's not working for them.

Emma Pownall 9:58
Yeah. I. Imagine integration is quite key to this. So systems that you trial in and and working with talking to each other. What's the reality of that? Do they actually talk to each other easily? What's your experience?

Tim Purcell 10:16
So some of the more modern cloud based systems, some of the more modern finance systems, they are definitely operating at a more open API type level, and I think that's quite a key, key element to this, in the fact that if a system is open, it's easy to integrate with. So some businesses are taking an iPaaS approach, where they're bringing in a central integration piece, which is platform agnostic. So then they're able to bring in different levels, different APIs, different systems, and join them through that I pass mechanism. So that's given the ability to switch in, switch out, different systems, and then take that more evolutionary approach, rather than replace everything, replace individual elements of a system. So I think, is that a reality? I think in a lot of cases, yeah, it absolutely is. And you're seeing systems built with very first and very much an API first type approach. So they're building with the API in mind, with that open operability in mind, and then making it easier for systems to integrate. So yeah, I think generally the reality is there. I think there are still systems that are lagging behind that, but I think most are now heading in that right direction.

Emma Pownall 11:28
Okay, and so with this digital evolution approach, where do tech partners, you know, CTOs, where do they all fit into that mindset and approach to tech. It's

Tim Purcell 11:42
Probably a mixed, mixed answer to that. I think, I think the CTOs now typically are tending to look more at that open interoperability of systems. So they're coming in with a mindset that a, let's take the finance system. For example. The finance system is part of a wide of a wider digital ecosystem, so therefore that finance system has got to be capable of being integrated with easily. That is not going to take a whole legacy mindset or a whole different skill set. It's it needs to be smart, it needs to be efficient, it needs to be easy to connect to. And I think CTOs is taking that, that approach first. So if a system doesn't conform to those requirements, if a system is not like I say, not easy to scale, not easy to adapt and evolve with the business, and not easy to be able to switch data as and when required. I think it's switching off a lot of CTOs from, from those those systems.

Emma Pownall 12:42
Yeah, it's so it feels like strategy, and tech strategy, particularly, is going to be really key to this. We talked earlier about culture can be a challenge when transforming and changing systems, where does strategy fit in for the business?

Tim Purcell 13:00
I think having a long term mindset is obviously key. I think that very fast, very agile approach is is now starting to to become apparent across a lot of businesses, digital teams. So the ability to to work in a like, I say, an agile, agile process. I'm seeing a lot of Sprint squad type squads appearing in businesses where the whole mindset of that squad is to look at a particular short term strategy. So once you've got that longer term piece, breaking that down into individual value gains, I think is starting to happen quite a lot those squads are then focusing on those gains, looking at the right systems, experimenting, switching in, evolving and then scaling that out, and then moving it pretty much to a business as usual. So so I think we're seeing a combination of the older mindset of that longer term strategy piece, but also a very, very quick, agile based strategy as well now.

Emma Pownall 14:03
yeah, that makes sense. And then where do you see external partners fitting into that approach that businesses are taking?

Tim Purcell 14:12
I think now it's important for those external partners to both understand, I guess, the strategy, obviously, of the business, the mindset of the business, the culture of the business, but also be able to support a lot of these businesses growth. Certainly now what we're seeing is a lot more capable businesses. So people within those businesses know exactly what they're trying to achieve, know the technologies that they want to work with and integrate with. And I think it's important for those partners to understand that and to be able to support that journey, I think, not just assume that you know, whilst partners like ourselves have such a wide range of knowledge, actually working with very, very capable teams and blending, blending that approach of working around them, supporting them, and almost operating. As an extension of their their internal agile teams.

Emma Pownall 15:03
How can this philosophy help businesses with innovation?

Tim Purcell 15:09
I think that agile approach is, is quite key to that, really. So the innovation piece is, I mean, I think the the older approach of looking at technology and trying to then build a multi year plan around that technology has changed, has moved on. I read something recently about artificial intelligence being that the current AI is going to be the worst that its AI is ever going to be. So tech is evolving at such a rate, the businesses are now having to react quickly to that, and if they're finding that if they're not adopting those technologies, then their competitors pretty much will be so. So I think that agility is quite key to that. So being able to try something and quickly prove whether it's going to add something to the business, I think is really key. So try it, experiment with it. Fail it quickly, move on. Tends to be very much the approach. Now.

Emma Pownall 16:08
yeah, it's really interesting. I think that that mindset of tech as a neighbour of growth and tech as a competitive advantage, and I've certainly seen in the time I've been working with businesses in technology that that mindset shift has happened, and we see so many more businesses using technology as a driver of growth. How else do you see mindset shift by taking this type of approach?

Tim Purcell 16:36
I think that that driver of growth is key. I think it's a really good point that I think there's a lot of fear, actually in businesses today, that they are seeing their competitors. And actually the industry doesn't help, let's be honest. But the tech industry drives these acronyms, these new technologies at businesses. They that the suggestion is that if you're not doing AI, then you're lagging behind. And I think that that drives a lot of fear into businesses today. So you do see a lot of businesses are experimenting, some completely misguided but there are a lot of businesses out there that are trying to use it in as much of a productive fashion as they can. But I think you do see a lot of that fear driven approach. But I think that growth factor is important as well, because businesses can truly see the power of some of this technology in terms of enabling them, not replacing but but actually enabling them to do more than they're doing today, to to hit areas of growth that they've not hit today to hit market opportunities that they're maybe not getting into today because the knowledge is out there and the technology to support that growth is there today.

Emma Pownall 17:49
Yeah. And, you know, I've certainly seen that shift from years ago. We talk about building efficiencies, and then it moved to productivity. And, you know, almost doing more with less people and that sort of thing. And it, it does feel like the strategy behind tech for businesses now is more about whether can they go, what can they do? What growth can can that enable, which makes it much more exciting place to be. I think.

Tim Purcell 18:24
I think tech today, tech in business, is probably, I probably say this every five years anyway, but I think it's probably the most exciting it's ever been. And I think the speed of growth today is probably what's making that quite exciting. In some respects, actually, the speed of growth is quite frightening in terms of how quickly it's evolving. And again, coming back to that AI point that that I made a couple of minutes ago, that AI is generally, is evolving at such a rate, and it's becoming such a an important facet now. And just seeing the growth across you're seeing it embedded in business systems now, today, almost as an expectation, as opposed to something that's new and is different. It's now in product now. So I think we're seeing now a period where it's shuffling itself around a little bit. I think that there are some technologies that are trying to find a little bit of a place in a home, but very quickly they are and again, businesses are having to adapt, having to to to adjust, having to adopt different technologies quite quickly, to find out what works and what doesn't work for them.

Emma Pownall 19:38
Yeah. Okay, so let's try and get a bit more practical now. What's one mindset shift or question that our audience should be asking themselves to stay on the right path if they want to adopt a digital evolution approach?

Tim Purcell 19:55
I think there's probably a couple of starting points like. Looking at, looking at the systems they have today. So do those systems? Are they open enough? Are they readily extendable enough? Are they capable of achieving those, those goals, those ambitions that a business has got? So if they're open enough, then evolution is, is is absolutely something that you can start looking at and start to evolve. If the system is is not, if the system is struggling from a maybe from a legacy point of view, if, if those systems are not open enough, then potentially it's more of a transformational step to start with, but then evolving from that moment onwards. So I think that's an important starting point. I think data as well. Having a data understanding across the business is important as well. And again, coming back to AI, if you don't understand your data, if you don't understand what your data consists of, and potentially the value you've got within that data, trying to build a technical strategy such as artificial intelligence over the top of something you don't truly understand is probably not going to get you very far. So so I think that's your starting point, really is to understand what you have today, what you can build on today, but then looking at some of those, those quicker automational gains. So things like Accounts Payable automation is, is something now that is becoming very quickly a standard function within finance teams, a standard expectation. So So utilising some of the functionality now that is very, very readily available is, is is potentially a quick win.

Emma Pownall 21:38
Yeah, I've heard when you know it's interesting, you talk about you might need that transformational step first to then move into an evolution mindset. Where does good enough fit into that? Because I've heard you talk a lot about being getting to a good enough point with with something like transformation to then move into a continual improvement point. How do you know where you good enough would be?

Tim Purcell 22:10
Suppose it depends on it depends on the business. So getting to a point where the system is capable of evolving, I think can be absolutely good enough. I think perfection, whereas in going back, probably showing my age a little bit here, but going back previously, where a full transformation process is everything. It's taking an entire business ecosystem, and replacing it with something where you've got a specific set of goals and a specific set of requirements in mind, and then the the aim is to, is to replace and achieve those, those those goals, those requirements, as part of that project. Businesses are taking, especially where the system is open and capable, businesses are taking a shorter term approach now. So building on something that, as you say, is good enough, building on a platform where you're accepting the the information you got available to you today, and then building on that incrementally, I think, is a quicker way to achieve greater value. Because you're taking shorter term steps. You're you're adding quickly, you're adding value to it, not waiting for the data to be perfect, not waiting for everything to be perfect, and then build around it, build quickly, grow, see what works, see what doesn't work, and then evolve from there, really,

Emma Pownall 23:34
yeah, take that next one. Keep incrementally moving forward.

Tim Purcell 23:38
All about those, those smaller incremental gains. Because if you're setting a longer term mindset with a full transformational approach, you may never get to the gains that you're looking to achieve, because the project is so long, so so transformative, so has such a big impact on the business itself, that is probably no no, no surprise that some of those projects never quite deliver on both the budget and the expectation. Whereas taking that smaller incremental approach, you can quickly grow, you can quickly gain some of that value.

Emma Pownall 24:15
Yeah. And one objection I often see to taking a more incremental approach is that people think it's not quite ambitious enough, or it's not going to get people far enough. How would you handle that objection, if you were talking to someone about taking this approach in tech?

Tim Purcell 24:33
I guess, I suppose that's a difficult one for me to answer, in a way, because I've, I guess I've always had that mindset over the years, working in software development. We for probably 1015, years, we've taken a very agile, very incremental approach, where we work in very short cycles. We do something, we try it. If it works, we carry on and we evolve it. If it doesn't work or it doesn't quite deliver what we expected, we tweak. It, we tune it, or we rip it out and go with something slightly different. But the failure is found very quickly, and the replacement is found very quickly. Then the impact on the team and the business isn't that big, and then we find where we can apply that incremental gain, and then go from there. So So I've guessed we've, we've always had that, that kind of mindset and approach. So for me, it's quite natural that you you take that early understanding, you try something, you experiment with it, you see what value it adds, and then you go and I think with systems today, they do allow you to do that. They do allow you to bring things into it in to integrate things very quickly. So I think if, if I were, if I were being challenged, than that approach, there's so many different examples that we can show that that show that that type of agility and incremental gain approach is it works well for a lot of businesses,

Emma Pownall 26:00
yeah. And I suppose the point is that all those small gains get you to that vision. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, you've just had the ability to pivot along the way, if it doesn't quite get you where you need to be.

Tim Purcell 26:13
But if you're, if you're taking a 123, year transformational approach, business changes over that period of time, that's a long time. And especially with technology, it's evolving. It's such a phenomenal rate that by the time you get to that end goal, technology has moved on three years. Well, actually, that's such a fast pace that you're already behind by the time you've come to the end of that transformational project. So so having those quick gains, those, those Quicken. It that that incremental approach means that you're always on top of how technology is changing. And if your business pivots, if your business opens up to new markets, you're in a quicker position to be able to deal with that more effectively.

Emma Pownall 26:55
Yeah, it's really interesting. It's, it's, it's such a good point that the tech is moving so quickly, and business strategy moves so quickly now that you need that agility to keep moving forward.

Tim Purcell 27:10
Yeah, I think that's probably the scary thing, actually, especially working in tech now, is that it is moving so quickly and keeping on top of that, and understanding that is so important. But if you are keeping abreast of those, those changes, if you're if you're monitoring those changes, if you're trying to add that value into into the business systems that you've got, and evolve those systems, then there's no reason why you can't stay alongside that, that that growth of tech.

Emma Pownall 27:38
So final question, what's one small action that a business leader could take this week to embrace the sort of progress that we've been talking about.

Tim Purcell 27:49
I think it's probably to ask yourself the question as to whether your systems are good enough today. So are they capable? Are you able to get the right insights out of the systems today? Are they in a position to support the new technologies that are available, and are they supporting you in your aspirations within the business as well? So so if you are, for example, if you're going through a lot of mergers and acquisitions, are they able to support that process? Are they able to support things, or are they a barrier to what you're trying to achieve. So I'd probably start there to look at whether you need to take that, that stage zero approach, which is the more transformational approach, to get your systems to a place that they can be evolved, or whether you are like I say, whether they're good enough to be able to build on today. Yeah,

Emma Pownall 28:37
I love that. Is it transformation first, then evolution or it, or are you in a position to evolve from where you are now? It's a good audit point for someone to get started on thinking in this way?

Tim Purcell 28:51
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think transformation, you do see a lot of transformation versus evolution, but they can work hand in hand. If you need to take that like I say, that stage zero approach, which is to transform the systems to a point that they can be evolved upon, then that's the right approach. But if your systems are good enough today, if they're capable of supporting both your aspirations but also the technology stacks that are available today, then they can be evolved and built on so, so, yeah, that absolutely can be, can be combined, but also you just need to look at whether your systems are capable of supporting where you need to be.

Emma Pownall 29:28
Yeah, brilliant. Thank you, Tim. Thanks so much for your time and for your insight into digital evolution. How can people get in touch if they want to find out more

Tim Purcell 29:38
Probably, combination of ways. So I'm on LinkedIn, so people can reach out to me there. I think a lot of people probably listening have probably got my email address and my contact details, so by all means, they can reach out to me that way.

Unknown Speaker 29:50
Brilliant. Thanks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai