What are the best ingredients for a revival to happen?

When you know that the world is broken, when you know that you're broken and you are desperate

for answers, is there anything that can solve the world's brokenness that can solve the

brokenness I feel? There's a desperation and a longing and they're finding no answers

that the world has to offer.

This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best future.

Well, welcome everybody.

It is so very good to be with you today on Made to Advance.

And as I always ask, if you appreciate our podcast,

please, please, please rate and review us.

That helps us get the word out to more people

about Made to Advance.

And it also helps us bring on more incredible guests.

And today I'm so excited for the conversation

we've got coming your way.

I'm gonna get to have the chance,

the privilege of talking with Tom Lynn,

who is the president of InterVarsity.

And InterVarsity is a ministry that reaches college students

all over the United States.

They currently have a presence

on more than 700 campuses around the nation.

They reached 62,000 students and faculty last year

and saw more than 2,400 students

make first-time decisions for Jesus.

Tom has written or contributed to several books,

which I would encourage you to check out.

And not only does Tom have a big heart for campuses,

he's got a big heart for the nations,

which I'm also excited to discuss with him.

So Tom, welcome to Made to Advance.

- Thank you.

It's great to see you, Brian.

Great to be with you.

- I was thinking about us being on here,

and of course we're getting right on the doorstep here

of like colleges starting school,

and you're no longer a direct front lines college worker.

Do you still feel at the leadership level of InterVarsity?

Did you feel the college school year starting

or does it not even phase you?

It's just another day in the office.

- Oh, we feel it.

We feel it both on the, it's just exciting.

We love the beginning of the school year.

So much energy.

Our staff are excited.

Students are excited.

So we definitely feel that.

And then just from a pure work perspective,

we feel it in our organization.

So our campus staff are turning towards work on campus.

Whereas early in the summer, they were doing other things,

summer mission projects, things like that.

So we see it and we feel it.

- Does Ivy do a lot of, or much,

programming in the summertime?

I know certain ministries that are school year based

will still have some things going on in the summer.

Is that, or is it more of a, hey,

we go dark for a few months when school's out?

- No, actually the summer's quite busy.

So depending on the campus,

there could be a overseas missions program.

So students are gone for two to six weeks, some other country.

We've got urban programs.

Sometimes students are in some urban areas around the US.

And then sometimes just if they're on campus, we've got summer Bible studies and stuff like

that going.

It does slow down, but there's still stuff happening.

Yeah, that's cool.

Well I'd love to hear, but we're gonna talk a lot about intervarsity, and for some who

are listening, I'm certain that they won't really even be familiar with intervarsity.

So we'll get to that.

I'd love to start just by hearing your own spiritual journey.

How'd you come to know Jesus?

How'd you end up in ministry even?

Yeah, glad to share.

So I would say two parts of my journey.

First, I was raised in a church.

I would say I went to a church ever since I was young.

My parents brought me to church and we were a small church in the Chicago suburbs, small

enough where we needed outside resourcing.

So Moody Bible Institute sent us Sunday school teachers.

And I now understand, 'cause of my role and stuff, they were interns, really, they were

college interns who were assigned to my church.

Of course, I was young kid, so I didn't know any different, but they were older people

I looked up to, they taught my Sunday school, and it was primarily under their influence

that they shared the gospel.

I came to know who Christ was,

and I made a decision in eighth grade,

and then confirmed as a sophomore,

confirmed my faith as a sophomore in high school.

But I would say that faith really wasn't tested,

or I didn't really make it my own until I was in college.

And so that's probably the bigger second part of my story

is that, like a lot of college students,

I think when I entered, I wanted to explore the world

and figure a lot of stuff out.

And I went through a period where I really hit rock bottom

in terms of faith.

I explored a lot of things,

kind of like the parable of the prodigal son.

And it was intervarsity friends, people who,

I later learned they were part of intervarsity,

but people who reached out to me, loved me, cared for me,

reintroduced me to the gospel.

And they really brought me back to faith.

And that's when I committed my life to Christ

in making him Lord of my life in that way

as a freshman in college.

That began a period of several years

where studying the scriptures with a community on campus

really radically transformed me.

And as I thought about after graduating,

I'm like, what else do I want to do with my life?

I want to continue doing the ministry that I had appreciated

and that I had also led as a student.

I wanted to continue doing that after I graduated.

So that really continued my engagement with the university

and led me into ministry.

- What was your first campus that you served on

after graduating college?

- At Harvard University.

- Okay, and that's where you went to undergrad,

it was at Harvard, right?

- I did, yeah.

Yeah, so I served on that campus for a couple years

and then I moved over to Boston University after that.

- Okay.

When you were going through the season

where you were not walking with Christ as actively

at the front end, were most of your explorations, I would say, on the lifestyle side of things and

getting away from Christ in terms of doing what a lot of college kids do, or did you have intellectual

objections, doubts, questions that were coming up in a fresh way at Harvard?

Yeah. Primarily lifestyle, actually. Yeah, I think I remember a distinct moment where

a couple months into the year, it was late at night, I was alone, I sat in the quad area

by myself, just started weeping and realizing that I had no friends and I had no purpose.

My purpose had deviated, and I was like, "What am I doing with my life? Who are my friends,

and I'm all alone?" And it was at that moment that God reminded me of his love for me,

and that I had a purpose and that I'm his and I'm loved by him. And that moment was really pivotal,

but primarily it was around lifestyle because I thought, "Oh, I just want to have a good time,

meet a lot of people, be popular, get involved with a lot of things," that kind of thing.

Yeah. Well, I went to Indiana University and I, of course, probably every large school's

got the parting thing pretty figured out. And I remember those early weeks, I actually did not

I didn't really party much in high school.

I was locked in with a good group of guys

and had other things I wrestled with,

but not partying generally.

And I remember getting to IU and going to these parties

and doing some things I hadn't done before.

And I came to this place, I remember walking,

it was the middle of the night,

I was probably walking back to my dorm

at two or three in the morning,

thinking I'm surrounded by people.

All these people are doing the,

kind of the dream life of college.

and I feel totally empty, and I'm surrounded by people,

and yet I feel totally alone.

And I remember thinking, I loved my life

way more in high school, where I was surrounded

by a tight group of Christian dudes

that were getting after Christ and all that.

I felt so much more joy and satisfaction in that

than I'm feeling at all in college,

that's supposed to be like, oh, you're finally at college.

It was real, it didn't take long, honestly,

to come to terms with that.

Did it take long for you to kind of have that awakening,

or did, or you know what I mean?

- No, exactly, yeah, that's a similar feeling I began to,

then I would compare, I was like,

oh, there's this group of people here,

sort of believers on campus, this Christian community

on campus, that they seem to have something

that I don't have, you know?

- Yeah. - It was very obvious,

you know, or you reflect back to what you had,

like in your example.

As an aside, by the way, you'd be happy to hear,

Indiana University actually is the second largest

university chapter across the country.

- Go Hoosiers!

We have 550 Greek sorority and fraternity students involved with InterVarsity.

550.

Amazing.

We have a Bible study, I wanna say, at almost every Greek house on campus.

So it's pretty amazing.

God is doing something.

This has all happened in the last 12 months.

So anyways.

Is that right?

So clearly God is doing...

Well, that really is gonna beg the question on a few different things of where I wanna

go.

I'm so excited for this conversation.

So it's hard to know where to start.

I'll tell you though, as long as we're talking

about our own journeys and college experiences,

I'd love to hear your perspective on for a student

who is, let's say, in high school right now,

preparing for college, just about to launch.

In fact, my third child is 18.

He's gonna be a freshman this coming year.

What would you say about just kind of getting yourself

grounded and prepared for the days to come in college?

What would you advise a student

just beginning the journey these days,

and maybe even if you're at the front end of college,

it doesn't have to be just limited to not started yet.

- Yeah, I would say, I mean, two things,

all centered around the theme of community,

I would say, find a Christian community on campus.

So if you're a believer and you want that

to continue to be part of your life,

first thing you gotta do, find a Christian community.

Any Christian community, just find it, explore.

There hopefully will be at least one, if not multiple ones.

So explore.

The second thing I would say is,

I think there's a temptation, especially these days,

for young Gen Z students, they wanna decide quickly

'cause they're uncomfortable being alone.

They wanna decide quickly who their community is

and they get locked in really quickly.

What I often suggest is give yourself time.

So the first couple of weeks,

meet as many people as you can,

engage with as many communities as you can,

and then decide.

But don't get locked in too quickly

because that may not be the group or the community

that God really has prepared for you on campus.

So explore, engage with lots of different communities,

and then decide, but for sure,

commit to a Christian community on campus.

That's probably the best advice I can give.

- Yeah, such a big deal.

I just give a great big amen to that,

and that's been for our two kids who are now,

two oldest who are now out of college,

I think they did a good job doing just what you said,

and that makes a massive difference,

just getting rooted and not trying to kind of

be out there on an island by yourself.

Would you, how would you coach parents,

let's say who are,

their kids are in high school right now,

maybe juniors or seniors,

and they're trying to set their son or daughter up

as best as possible without being, you know,

tiger parents or whatever the phrases are these days

of like, you know, overbearing,

but how do, as a mom or dad, and you're kind of,

you're kind of in that season

where you're asking those questions,

but how do you best set it up for your child

as they're preparing for those days?

- Yeah, great question.

I think it is a challenge.

As a parent of an 18-year-old, 20-year-old,

I've been through the process.

I know you don't wanna do too much.

You don't wanna be overbearing.

They need to own their college decisions, things like that.

One thing that I do suggest for parents is

- Often, parents are involved with college tours.

And I would say,

but the far majority of incoming college students,

they wanna get connected before they get to college.

So I would say, when you're going on a tour,

if you have, hopefully you have some kind of networks,

find some Christian students on campus.

And I offer that to my friends.

If I'm like, if you visit any college campus,

let me know which one, I'll connect you ahead of time,

and I'll get you a student leader.

I'll get you a Christian student leader

to lead you on a tour.

What I found is that when your young high school student

connects with another Christian student,

college students who's already there, it does something.

They're like, wow, that was great,

or wow, this seems like, you know,

I wanna be around these people,

or this seems like a, you know, I think I wanna go here.

It's one of the best things you can do

because then you've connected them before college

and maybe even influenced their college decision in some.

But if you tell them to go to that school,

they're not gonna, if you tell them certain things,

so you gotta show them, right?

- Yeah, that's right.

- So I think if you can do that

through the college tour kind of thing,

and so I do that all the time.

I have our InterVarsity student leaders

lead other high school students on college tours

and tell them what they think of the campus.

And usually they throw in, "Hey, you know what?

"There's a thriving Christian community here on campus.

"I think it'd be great if you came."

- Man, that is just an incredible idea.

it's great, it's practical, it's easy.

And if a parent was going to some college or university

that they have no background with,

they're like, "I don't even know where to start."

I mean, I think, I know you well enough to know

you're gonna celebrate all the different campus ministries.

My guess is probably most colleges and universities

have a listing of these are what we offer at our campus.

So you could, even if you don't know anybody

from anybody at that school, you could probably look up

some of those Christian ministries

and reach out to whoever's listed

and try to facilitate something.

Wouldn't you think?

- Yeah, that's right.

There's a variety of ways.

I would say if you have youth pastors at your church,

they may know some people, right?

That's another.

Most ministries like ours is a directory.

You could just go on intervarsity.org.

You find some stuff.

And then we could talk about this later if you want,

but we started a coalition called Every Campus,

everycampus.com, where you can look on any campus,

literally, and you'll see all the ministries

that are at those schools as well.

So there's a variety of ways to figure that out.

- That is so cool, I've never heard of that.

Tell me more as long as we're on the subject.

Everycampus.com, you said, right?

- Yeah, oh, Every Campus, maybe it's been a while

since we've connected, Brian, I gotta tell you about this.

So in 2018, we launched a vision

to see every campus in the country

have a gospel movement by the year 2030.

- Wow. - It was a huge endeavor.

we at the time, we noticed our data show

that 2,500 college campuses of over 1,000 students

in population, so generally, you know,

not tiny, tiny colleges that might close next year

or whatever, 2,500 colleges, more than half

had no gospel movement on campus,

no identifiable campus ministry.

And so that broke our hearts, and we went to our friends

at Crewe as well and said, this is what we're hearing

from the Lord, what do you think?

and they're like, "Hey, we're hearing similar things."

So together, InterVarsity and crew launched Every Campus.

It's a coalition now with 120 different organizations,

dozens of other campus ministries.

Together, all we're trying to do,

it's not about InterVarsity,

we want to see a gospel movement on every campus,

whether it's InterVarsity or not.

And so that's what we're trying to do through Every Campus.

And you can see a lot of stuff on the website,

everycampus.com.

Wow, I am so blessed just to hear.

I mean, that's amazing, and not just,

it's amazing for the missional intent,

but also for like you and Cru and so many others

to be working together like that

is such a great model of the kingdom to say,

"Hey, we're not competitors, we're collaborators here,

"and we just wanna see kids come to know Jesus."

And the truth is, and we all know this,

the same for churches,

not different strokes for different folks.

Somebody that's gonna be so, just fit perfectly at IV

may not fit as well at Cru and vice versa,

And so I just, man, that's really cool to hear, and that's gonna be a massive resource

to those who are listening.

You know, this is, I mentioned to you, we have a huge passion in our church for college

young adults, that's the single largest age group, actually, that's part of our church.

I keep expecting, everybody says, "Brian, as you get older, the church is supposed to

get older too," and for whatever reason, that doesn't seem to be happening.

I don't know if it's 'cause I'm not mature enough, or if we're doing a good job, you

know, connecting.

I don't know what it is.

But from your perspective, Tom, why is it so crucial that we are intentional about reaching

college students?

And if you wanna broaden to young adults, feel free, but particularly college students,

why is that strategic?

Why is it worthy of extra attention and not just going, "Oh, they'll..."

The old thinking was always, "They'll come back to church when they get married.

They'll come back to church when they have kids."

And yeah, speak to that.

- Yeah, yeah, and the great thing about being involved

with student ministry is it keeps you young too, Brian.

So that's the positive right there.

(Brian laughs)

And I appreciate your church

and how you engage young people.

I tell people, there's three reasons

that I share with everyone why it's so strategic,

why I think it's the most significant mission,

type of mission that you could be involved with.

One is that it's tomorrow's world changers.

I really believe, right?

I mean, college grads generally are tomorrow's world changers.

They're the future leaders.

We're graduating leaders of the future.

So if you want to impact the society, if you want to impact the church, it's those college

graduates that are most likely going to be the ones.

So that's one, it's a strategic audience.

Second is that these students, in those two, four, five, six years of university that they're

in, they're the most open that they're going to be for the rest of their lives.

They are setting, it's really setting the trajectory of their life in terms of their

thinking, their faith, whether they have faith or not, they're forming their values.

So all of those things, they're malleable.

You know, it's the first time somebody, even if you grew up in the church, for the first

time you have to own your faith as an adult.

Or if you didn't grow up in the church, it's the first time you're exposed to faith and

you get to make a decision as an adult.

So it's the most open you'll ever be.

I don't think students realize that, that later in their life they're gonna get more

and more narrow and closed, actually,

rather than open, 'cause they're exposed

to so much at college.

So that's the second reason.

And the third is the statistic,

I'm sure you've heard of it,

and we see it all the time.

Even if you're church, 70% of those who are church

enter college, by the time they graduate,

they leave the faith.

- Wow. - And they leave the faith.

So this is a, Barna has studied this,

and it's consistently around the 70% mark.

That's, first of all, sad to hear,

but sad reality that even if you grew up in the church,

70% of your youth group, by the time they graduate,

will have left the church, statistically speaking.

So we've gotta do something about that,

and I think that's why it's so strategic

to engage in that college student season.

- Yeah, that's so, so good.

I remember when we first started at IU,

they gave, as freshmen, they gave us these boxes

filled with free products.

And at the time, I thought, this is really good stuff.

with a full can of shaving cream, full Bic razors,

full stick of deodorant, all these things.

And at the time I'm like, wow, how do they afford this?

Now I realize that to your point about openness

and then you start forming decisions

that set the trajectory.

Later on, I was a marketing major

and so I started coming across the research

through my program of how if you make certain decisions

in your college age, early 20s,

the likelihood of those literally sticking

for the rest of your life.

And so Gillette, that's who it was actually,

Gillette just realized, hey, it might cost us a bundle

to give these razors away,

but if we can get them shaving with Gillette in college,

we literally a vast percentage of the time

will have them for life as customers.

And I think that applies on so many other things.

Of course, making so many decisions, key decisions too,

work, job, spiritual, sometimes marriage,

all these things going on.

So I love you guys' intentionality.

Now, when we think about even that 70% figure,

I don't know if you would nuance this at all.

One thing I've thought about,

and for me this is a tough question to answer.

I would love, sometimes I feel like,

probably the biggest reason why kids end up

disconnecting from their faith or the church

is because they don't get connected,

which you spoke to earlier.

Sometimes I feel like kids are not prepared

necessarily intellectually from their growing up tradition,

and it's a weird thing because I wish they would

some books on, I wanna make everybody read D.A. Carson

or not D.A. Carson, excuse me, Tim Keller,

when it comes to some apologetics and whatnot.

But if you're in your high school years,

if you're sort of comfortable intellectually,

you might not feel a lot of motivation

to take on apologetics, even if it was,

you know, pitched at a accessible level.

Do you feel like there's much of a need

to come alongside kids before college

with that kind of resource?

you go, no, most of it's just they fall away from relationships with other Christ followers.

Do you know what I mean?

- Yeah, I do. I think it depends on their church background, frankly, and I'm sure you see it in

the church. It's honestly different youth ministries in churches as kids have their

upbringing. Some experience deeper foundations and some don't, right? Some come into college

much more of a cultural Christian, they know what it's like to go to a church, but they

don't own their faith at all.

So now, having said that, some churches do a phenomenal job in the youth ministry stage

where they're teaching the scriptures and/or having these young high schoolers study the

scriptures, read Tim Keller, whatever.

But not every church does that, right?

So I do think it matters, your background.

So now having said that, I think college is an opportune time, no matter what background

you have, to go deeper.

And so that's why, for us, we believe the keys are it's reading, right?

So reading, Tim Keller's reading, and scripture study.

So those form, for a student to be able to study the Bible for themselves if they hadn't

before, that is a key part of the formation.

Without those things, right, it's no surprise that they fall away because if they were going

before because of their friends, they're not there anymore. So why would I engage? So I

think it's an important time to build those foundations you're talking about.

Yeah. Well, I'm gonna pivot a little bit here, and this is probably the question I am most

excited to ask you about. All over the nation, we're hearing great stories of just spiritual

movement, and I would say even particularly at campuses, you just hear at both state universities

or smaller Christian schools even, these stories of different movements of the Holy Spirit

that seem pretty encouraging, and it's tough to know, I don't know if, you know, it might be a

little bit early for any kind of systemic research on it, but you just hear anecdotally more than I

have in the past, I would love to hear your perspective on just what is the spiritual

climate of colleges and universities across our country right now.

What are you guys seeing?

What feels encouraging?

What feels not so encouraging?

Yeah, great question.

I get asked this a lot, and I'll just say it is encouraging.

So both the anecdotes, and I could share lots, but the data.

The data actually confirms that we are seeing a resurgence of faith among Gen Z, and it

is so exciting.

There are certainly pockets of what we would call revival happening, but across the board,

if you look at data from everything from The Economist or The Atlantic, like secular publications

to Barna and Church Research, American Bible Society, Ed Stetzer wrote a piece recently

as well that all of these articles on, for the first time ever, we're seeing Gen Z go

up in their churchgoing and those who follow Jesus. That percent has gone up. Every previous

generation, it always goes down. It always declines. So, the last two years, we've seen

a reversal. Some would say that COVID played a part in that because prior to COVID, we

were still seeing decline among Gen Z. But whatever the reasons are, and I have my own

thoughts, we're seeing a change, an uptick. In the UK, this is really fun, they are seeing

the same thing, actually, even in greater numbers, 20% of young adult men in the UK

now attend church regularly.

That is a crazy statistic for the UK.

The group that's following Jesus the most in the UK of all the generations, even think

about age groups, is Gen Z, is the young adult group, not the older group, which is amazing,

right?

So we are encouraged, and some of it's supernatural, some of it is, yeah, outpourings of the Holy

spirit, some of it is just a variety of expressions for sure, but it's happening.

In intervarsity, we're seeing the most year-to-year growth than we have since

1980. No kidding. Yeah, in terms of those, what we call our core participants. So

it's an exciting time. That is, well, I know you said you have your own

theories or speculations on what's driving it, so if you feel

I'd love to hear just kind of some of what your leaning is

as far as what's behind this kind of spiritual traction.

- Yeah, I think I'll talk about in terms of the Gen Z

and sort of the climate we're in right now.

So what I love about Gen Z,

and some would have said many years ago,

what's challenging about Gen Z,

but this is what I love about Gen Z

is that they know that the world is broken.

It's obvious to them.

They see it on their phones every day.

It's actually in some ways devastating.

It's what causes depression and anxiety.

They know the world is broken.

They also have a keen sense that they are broken,

that I am broken, right?

They know themselves that they are broken.

Again, it does affect depression, mental health issues.

But what are the best ingredients for a revival to happen?

When you know that the world is broken,

when you know that you're broken

and you are desperate for answers,

Is there anything that can solve the world's brokenness

that can solve the brokenness I feel?

There's a desperation and a longing,

and they're finding no answers that the world has to offer.

So to me, and I think that's what you saw at Asbury

in certain revivals, you see students on their knees

repenting and just crying out to God, saying like,

"I'm broken.

"I need God, and the world is broken.

"The world needs God."

So that for me is probably one of the most compelling

dynamics that I see going that I think is contributing

to this outpouring.

- Yeah, I think that that makes so much sense.

And I think that the sort of the narrative of,

I mean, there was a time where you really had to convince

people, try to get them to possibly acknowledge

that they were broken, that they were sinners.

Now it seems like the more convincing is that there could be

any hope for all the brokenness.

And yeah, so it's a much better place to start from

when the gospel presumes that you're willing

to own some brokenness.

Now, I know you talked about on the research side of things,

is there anything, it's really helpful to hear all that

on the research side, but is there anything anecdotally

that you would point to within InterVarsity

or other places that, I mean, you already mentioned Asbury,

but you go, it's fun to hear the stories too.

Is there anything particularly that you'd say,

oh man, we saw this at a certain campus,

and it was just, wow.

you mentioned actually Indiana too. So anyone you want to pick that you feel like might be

just encouraging to our listeners as far as on the ground stories.

Yeah. I mean, Indiana, there was this one gathering of Greek students. They thought

maybe 100 Greek students would come. This was last April. And something like 180, 190

Greek students gathered for worship this one evening, I want to say 110 of those 180

made first-time professions of faith in Christ.

- Wow.

- That's at one gathering, you know?

- Wow.

- And the staff, the campus minister there said, "We made sure." Like, we asked them three times.

We're not looking for people to just raise their hands. We said, "We made them fill out a card.

We made them like…" And this is still the number that appeared. Like, "We didn't make it easy. We

- I was told that we share the cost of following Jesus.

So anyway, that's just a fun one.

University of Colorado Boulder, we had a Bible study there

and the campus minister realized

that there was some football players who were there.

And the football players who were on injured reserve

asked for healing for their injuries, right?

And so the leader there said, "Okay, I'll pray for it."

And these football players were healed.

- Wow.

Now what that does is then they tell all their football player friends.

And soon, the whole football team starts coming to the Bible study, especially those who are

injured, and they start asking for healing, right?

And then they start getting healed.

And as you may be aware, some of these revival-type things are being led by athletes too.

So Ohio State recently saw a big upholding.

I think the football team there was really the ones who were leading the ministry there.

And then, so all places, I would say one of our historically black colleges and universities

we administer at, Jackson State University.

At Jackson State, there was a time period about a year and a half ago where week after

week, students were coming to faith, over and over, like new students, new students,

new students, every week that the fellowship gathered, and for like 10 straight weeks.

And we're continuing, just seeing an outpouring of the Spirit and people coming to faith in

Christ for the first time at this historically black college.

So all over we're seeing it and yeah.

By the way, our largest ministry now is, I don't know if you would like this, at Purdue

University.

Also do...

[laughter]

Oh, come on.

Well, here's a funny thing, Tom, when you say Purdue, and don't forget where you're

going with that, specifically Purdue, but you're probably familiar with the Salt Network

that plants churches in university towns.

Does that ring a bell?

Sure.

Yeah, sure.

have such a like heart to us, we try to plant one--or we try to support very

generously one church plant every year, sometimes more, but at least one. And

because Salt Network overlaps with our heart in so many ways, reaching young

adults, the global kind of focus, all of that, they make for very natural

relationships. So we have planted--helped plant in Ann Arbor, we've helped plant in

Milwaukee, but the big one that was a true step of faith for us was

we've helped get started a church in West Lafayette. So I want you to know,

even as an Indiana Hoosier, that's how much I love Jesus. In fact, at their

Purdue campus at Salt Network that Pastor Jordan's leading, it is growing so

fast they've had to now get a new space, and he just called me the other

day and said, "Hey, we've got this, I mean, it's a crazy, sounds like not optimal space,

but they got it and we're helping them renovate it because they just, I mean, are running

out of room for students."

So it's just really exciting to hear that.

I just literally, last week, was having a conversation about what God's doing in West

Lafayette.

What are you seeing in Purdue?

I mean, I don't know if you were gonna go further, you said that's the biggest, but...

Well, we're just saying, yeah, we've got 500--actually, that's also a Greek ministry we have.

580 students who are involved in Bible studies

and the fellowship at Purdue's campus.

So they're all in Greek fraternities and sororities.

And we saw a lot of that growth and revival being led

by what's exciting is being led by Gen Z students.

So student leaders leading the charge.

About a year ago, a student leader shared the gospel

and called all her peers to faith in Christ.

And like, I wanna say 40 or 50 students

room also responded, first-time decisions for Christ.

Just a lot of growth we're seeing, and it's being led by Gen Z, which is really exciting.

- Amazing.

And you said Indiana was what number in size?

- The second largest.

- Second, okay, that's what I thought you said.

- So you know, it's good, it's good, yeah, yeah.

- So for all the Hoosiers out there that might be listening, and I see the demographics,

I know you're listening right now, let's pray that IU can grow in Jesus' name.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

you said--this may be premature to ask this question, but when it comes to

graduation and interest in ministry--and obviously we celebrate Christ

followers going into every sector of society--but as a pastor I know that one

of the conversations we're having a lot amongst pastors is it feels like--and I

haven't seen statistics on this--but it feels like we're seeing a dearth of

younger people interested in pastoral leadership. And I would just be curious

if you're seeing any changes based on some of these trends, or if it's too

early to say, relative to interest specifically in vocational ministry

post-college? Yeah, great question. I think certainly we are seeing some

challenges. I would say those who go into the pastor or pastoring churches,

it hasn't always been the same exact alignment in terms of trends as

as parachurch or campus ministry.

But certainly there's some similar factors

that are correlated.

So like during COVID when pastors started leaving ministry

or post-COVID, especially when they started leaving ministry

also having to do with polarization in the church

and just, it's not fun being a pastor.

It's like really tough.

You get criticized all the time.

Some similar reasons, it's not exactly the same.

I would say campus ministers also

you know, kind of had some of those challenges as well. I think the biggest challenge is that

Gen Z is different, and I think we need to recognize that. I think that they're more

pragmatic. So, do I want to engage in three years of seminary before I become a pastor or go into

ministry? No. You know, both the money and do I need to, right, are big questions. And I know,

you know, churches are not requiring that kind of thing as much anymore as well. But

And we're also seeing Gen Z generally is more risk-averse.

So I think if you study the generations,

you see that a lot in characteristics.

They're a little bit more risk-averse.

And so, it's not easy to go

into full-time vocational ministry.

It is a risk.

It's unstable.

And they're looking for security, and it's not as secure.

And so, I think those are some challenges that we have

that are probably similar to churches.

Now, our data shows right now that we're either about flat

or starting to recover, like see a slight increase

year over year in terms of our campus ministers.

We recruit new ones every year, of course,

and people are always coming in.

But I would say we're not seeing huge growth,

but things are relatively flat or increasing a little bit,

and especially since COVID.

- Okay. - Yeah.

- Interesting, yeah, that's really interesting to hear.

And it'll be fascinating in the next even couple years,

just to see how this plays out

as Gen Z continues to take steps.

I'm curious, how do you guys navigate

the student's involvement with parachurch ministry

while still maintaining a vision for the local church?

I think we see a lot, for us, we see this regularly

where you see students have really cool

parish church experiences, but the church world out there, even at great thriving churches,

is just quite different than a college ministry.

And so I know in our area, our college ministries have tried to adapt a little bit with a better

handoff and a better kind of working in partnership even.

How does Ivy approach that, trying to cast the vision for the local church?

Yeah, I would say we cast vision especially for, I would say, multi-generational local

church because we say that is probably where you're likely going to be for the long term.

I would contrast that with, there are certainly campus churches that are like 90% all students

anyway.

That's a little different.

That's more like a campus ministry that is also a church.

But we try to cast vision for multi-generational churches, reminding them that's where they're

gonna be in the long term, most likely.

It's not easy.

The biggest challenge, actually, Brian, that we face is that in most cases, college students

end up moving or going to a different locality where they will have to start over.

So they're starting over, period, and they're starting with a new church.

So it's not so much about, well, you have to plug into a local church here because this

this is where you're gonna end up after college.

No, because actually they're probably gonna move anyways,

right, or go somewhere else.

But we do want them to have the experience

of being part of a multi-generational, a broader church

because that is the kind of church

they're gonna end up with in the long run.

Now, whether students do that or not, there are challenges.

We have, you know, our campus ministers

might take them to church.

Hey, I'll give you a ride, whatever.

Ultimately, if they don't show up, they don't show up.

We try to bring pastors in to speak

to our intervarsity groups as well.

So we partner in a variety of ways like that.

That gives them exposure.

Again, whether or not they actually go

to those churches or not, I don't know.

And then of course, about 30% on average

of our intervarsity chapters, as I was sharing earlier,

they're non-believers.

So they have no church background.

They're not even thinking about attending a church.

They're trying to check out who Christ is still.

So some of them will do that in the context of church as well.

But yeah, so anyways, that's what I would say.

- Yeah, well, that's really cool

to hear what you guys are doing.

And I hear what you're saying with regard

to it being an uphill battle on the one hand.

But I think that kind of exposure and connection,

I mean, for the church, the college church I went to,

there were so many involved with crew, intervarsity,

fellowship Christian athletes,

who also were regular attendees of this particular church

and/or in some cases serving.

And I just found it was, and boy, this is,

I don't know if there's any kind of real research

on this or not, but it just felt like

you were more accustomed and comfortable

with that local church multi-generational feel

for when you did take that step and graduated

and moved to the new town.

It wasn't such a jarring, like I'm in this college ministry

where we all live together and eat together

and it's community off the charts and all this stuff.

And then all of a sudden I'm in this thing

where everybody goes to work and they don't sit there

and aren't together all the time,

and it was just a little bit more of a transition,

and it really helped.

Now you hit on something,

and actually I wanted to press in on a little bit,

which is, as great segue,

the idea of whether it be pastors or campus workers

feeling some of those tensions at the campus level

that have come out culturally

in these last years in particular.

And I was gonna ask you two questions,

but I'm gonna combine them into one.

I was gonna ask how IV has responded to the culture

without necessarily conforming to the cultural shifts.

But I'll tell you a close cousin of that

is the other question I was gonna ask,

which is how do you navigate this tension

between evangelism and social concern or social issues,

especially, I think, among students

who tend to be very socially, they really can galvanize.

So I'll leave it to you if you wanna take that

one question or two, generally, I'd be responding to culture without necessarily

conforming, and then also that tension between evangelism, social issues on

campus. Yeah, no, great. I get asked that a lot. I think people generally think of

InterVarsity as a leader in engaging culture or the issues of the moment

because we see it on university campuses, and so it is a part of what we do

every day. I think I'll start by saying, you know, we're always shaped by culture,

So the question is, how are we being shaped?

So I always warn students to think that you are oblivious

or you're immune to being shaped by culture.

You know, you be honest with yourself.

We're being shaped all the time.

I would challenge them, figure out who you want

to be shaping you and how do you want to be shaped?

'Cause you're always being shaped, right?

So we do need to be aware, I think,

that there are powerful currents that we're swimming in.

And especially if you're in the university, 'cause there's so much going on.

I think how we prepare our students, and this relates to evangelism and justice-related issues,

we place a priority on being grounded in Scripture. So, culture's gonna say a lot.

I mean, actually, John Stott used to say, "It's about the Word and the world." Right?

We need to be aware of what's going on in the world, and we need to engage the world

to being centered on the Word. It's always about both. You don't want to be the world

and devoid of engaging the world,

but it's the word and the world.

So grounded in scripture, grounded in the word of God.

I remember for me, studying the gospel,

Mark was transformative in seeing like, who is Jesus?

Okay, and Jesus says very clearly,

proclaim and heal, right?

He goes, proclaim and heal, right?

There is a, or, you know, his particular attention,

Jesus' particular attention to the marginalized

and the poor.

I think for students, young people who are grounded

in scripture, they're able to do both well

without the dichotomizing or the polarizing effects.

They think of it as integratively,

but that grounding of scripture is so key.

So I would say, yeah, how do we do the both

and being grounded in scripture is one of the keys.

Organizationally, I would say, and this is maybe

for us as an organization and probably churches,

church leaders, pastors that faces tension.

There is a discerning around,

'cause there's so many cultural issues of our day,

what are your majors and what are your minors?

Where are the places where you're okay

for conversations to happen

and where do you need to be clear

so that we're better able to engage in the culture

if we're clear?

And so an example of that is,

for us, we're very clear about sexuality

and our theology on human sexuality

and where we stand and what we believe

and why we believe what we believe is beautiful.

We don't, so by being clear, actually,

we're able to engage all different types of communities

because we're clear on what we believe.

And I think that's one of the ways

to navigate these moments is figure out

what you need to be clear on for your own church body

or your own ministry.

And then with that, you then have the freedom

to engage the culture 'cause you've been clear.

- Do you find that if you have clarity on the issues

that Ivy has said, hey, these are the ones

that we're gonna be clear on,

I'm guessing periodically,

either the sort of the organization as a whole,

or even then just local expressions at campuses

sometimes feel some pressure to say,

hey, you guys need to take a stand on X,

you need to say Y.

And do you just simply in those moments,

when they are not issues that you are in the,

these are our essentials, do you just kinda say,

hey, we leave that to the discernment of the individual

and that's just not gonna be an issue,

we make a sort of a public or a statement on it?

- Yeah, that's one of the ways that we might respond.

I think generally we don't actually,

'cause there's so many, we don't make statements

on a lot of things, we choose not to.

I actually have a board policy that says

that I can't make a statement or endorsement

about a particular issue without board approval as well.

That's a nice safeguard 'cause then,

so nationally we don't do that.

Yeah, so I think that's right, and we would,

it doesn't mean that we don't care about that thing,

we're just not gonna make a statement about it.

And with a diverse movement like ours,

On a lot of issues, we have a lot of different opinions.

And so, no one person can represent

all the opinions we have.

And so, that's another reason why we just try not to,

yeah, take a firm position on X or Y or Z issue

all the time.

- Yeah, that makes sense.

I was talking to one unnamed university leader,

and I remember this is some time ago,

but he was just saying the moment we,

he did make a couple of statements,

but the moment you start making statements,

then people want statements for other things,

and then the moment you make statements,

you're alienating all the people

who thought the statement was wrong,

and even the people that feels like you're supporting

then end up feeling like you didn't go far enough,

so the whole thing just feels like a massive catch-22

that ultimately drags you off mission

of helping people meet Jesus.

I love your policy. - Exactly, exactly.

- I think that's some wise leadership.

- Yes, exactly. - How Tom,

You've been in your role now nine years, at least as I understand it, and have you seen

your leadership have to adapt much over those nine years, or do you feel like the way you came in and

led the organization? I mean, once you got your feet underneath you, do you feel like you've been

mostly able to kind of lead in the same fashion and style from the early days on?

You know, yes and no. I mean, you lead authentically with who God's made you to be

and understanding what you're particularly good at

and what are things that you need a lot of help in.

But I would say no, you know, there's a,

you adapt to the season.

So I've had to, I think, there've been seasons

where a big part of my role was to bear pain,

just to bear pain, leaders bear pain.

And that's just a big part of the calling.

When we went through COVID, it was around like,

especially caring for employees, actually,

caring for our staff.

What does it mean to,

then there've been other seasons

where it's been fully about what's our vision to see a gospel movement on every campus,

and how does that play out, and leaning more into strategy or prayer for revival.

So I would say, depending on the season, and yeah, it's been, now I'm in my 10th year,

and I feel like I've been through five different seasons in just 10 years, but you lead accordingly.

So it's been, yeah, I've kind of had to adapt in different ways.

That makes sense. That makes sense. One last question to ask you. Urbana is coming up this

December. And for many, I'm sure in our listening audience, they won't have any idea what this weird

word Urbana even means. My guess is, I've heard just over the years, just different shifts and

and changes and trying to continue to see Urbana

be everything it can be.

I would love for you just to tell us,

what is Urbana?

When is it?

Who is it for?

And maybe you would wanna speak to some of the journey

Urbana's in, what it's trying to accomplish this year

and how maybe that's different than previous years.

- Yeah, glad to.

I mean, Urbana is, I would say, the longest running

and traditionally one of the largest

student mission conferences in North America.

1946, since 1946.

- Wow.

- Most of the time, it's only every three years.

And so the last one was in December of 2022,

and we're gonna have it again December 2025.

December 28th to the 31st, 2025, this year.

It's a missions mobilization conference.

So the goal of every Urbana is to call students,

for students to discern and hear God's call to the nations

and what might God have for them

in their participation in global missions.

Billy Graham used to say that more than half

of the missionaries in the world were in some way

called to the mission field at an Urbana conference.

So that's the kind of legacy and influence

that Urbana's had for generations.

So I think what's unique about this year's Urbana

or this season of Urbana, it's Gen Z, Taylor.

This is really for Gen Z.

And I often tell my older friends who want to come to Urbana, and many do, church leaders

come, we're going to have a church leaders track led by Ed Stetzer this time around as

well.

Every time I talk to my older friends, I said, "Please come.

You're going to love it, but it's not for you.

Just remember, you are not the primary audience.

I think you'll get a lot out of it, but it's for the Gen Z student."

So we tailor everything around it.

We speak their language.

So for some older people, they're like, "I don't even know what that word really means

Gen Z gets it, right?

So it's for their generation.

And so one way you'll see it play out at this Urbana,

which I'm excited about,

is we're gonna actually do an assessment test

called the SEMA assessment test.

When they come in, when students come in,

the first thing they'll do when they're signing in,

checking in, is take this quick assessment test,

and they love these kind of tests as well, Gen Z.

It gives them a profile of themselves immediately.

And that they'll take with them throughout the conference

helping them reflect on, "Oh, this profile says I'm interested or I'm built in this way for these kinds of things.

These are my interests. These are my passions, etc. Maybe I should explore X or Y or Z in missions."

So that will help them as a guide. Again, that's what Gen Z, they like the practical tools.

They think everyone should have practical tools because it's so easy, right?

And they like to understand themselves, who they are. And so, that's an example one. I'd say

we're focused on global missions issues like we always do. We're going to hear from different

parts of the church, excellent Bible expositors and speakers from around the world. They're all

listed right now on urbana.org. A few additional people are being added actually this month as

as well, urbana.org has all the information to register.

It's also in Phoenix, Arizona.

So I don't know, Brian, if you've been to Urbana

back in the day, it's always been in the Midwest.

- Right.

- In cold, frigid temperatures.

This is the first Urbana that's moved out of the Midwest,

Phoenix, so, yep.

So enjoy.

And it's also priced for church groups.

I would say this is probably the lowest priced Urbana

in like 20 years.

So there's like inflation pressures every Urbana.

It usually always goes up,

but we've done some things to simplify this Urbana,

to bring the cost as far down as we can.

And we've got group registration packages for churches

where you can register as a group and things like that.

So anyways, I'm excited about it, December 28th,

and we're hoping for as many students from churches

and variety of ministries.

It's not an intervarsity only event.

In fact, InterVarsity usually only makes up 25, 30% of the participants.

So it's really for the whole church.

Yeah, for the whole church and lots of other ministries.

Yeah.

Well, those sound like some amazing changes and innovations, and I have no doubt that

between the price and the location, that alone...

You know, it's funny, 'cause we like to think, "Oh, it'd just be wonderful if every student

or attendee came purely because it's all of the lofty spiritual reasons and calling, but

let's be honest, warm temperatures help the cause.

That's right.

That's right.

They do, it just helps the cause.

That's right.

That's right.

There's a reason why all those Florida people are so happy all the time when they get all

that sunlight.

So, you know.

Hey, before we finish today, Tom, anything else you want to mention or share on before

we wrap up our time?

No, I'm just excited.

I want to invite any of the audience to come check out both Urbana and InterVarsity.

The easiest way to do it is urbana.org and intervarsity.org.

You can find out more about what we're doing, you can find out about every campus and our

vision to see a gospel movement on every campus.

So God is at work on college campuses, and I hope that's a big takeaway that those listening

today take away.

Well, I sure appreciate your willingness to take some time, particularly as school is

bearing down here and you guys are feeling all of the all of the speed

increase but Tom just such a fan of yours and praying for you and I'm

praying for InterVarsity as you launch this year I just love hearing your

passion for young adults for college students and really believe that in the

in the great logs of history which we won't fully understand all the factors

that advance the kingdom but I know InterVarsity is gonna have been a big

a big player in God's kingdom

for seeing generational change in our country and beyond.

So thank you for your leadership

and thank you for your influence.

Yeah, thanks, Brian.

Great to be with you today.

Wow, what a great conversation with Tom Lynn.

And I find it so encouraging to hear what God is doing

on college campuses all around our country,

what God is doing through inner varsity as well.

And I just wanna kind of end this episode

of really just making a plea and encouragement really

that if you have the opportunity to build into

and encourage college students and young adults,

please take that opportunity.

If college students are part of your church,

take 'em out to lunch.

If you know people that are working and serving

with parachurch ministries or with their young adult

ministries at their church, encourage them,

support them financially, open up your home to them.

College students are making these massive decisions

are gonna shape the rest of their lives and our culture.

And so what a great investment,

and I'm so glad to hear what God is doing nationwide.

As I always say, if this episode was encouraging to you,

please rate and review Made to Advance.

That really is such a gift to the whole team

that makes this show possible.

It's been a production of Engedi Church,

and we have more great conversations on the way.

So until next time, just know God made you to advance.