00:00:12:17 - 00:00:30:19
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to The Amazing, the show for acquisition entrepreneurs, search funders and holdco builders across the UK and Europe. Each week we dive into the real world stories strategies and challenges behind buying and building small businesses. And whether you're searching for your first deal or one in a group of companies. This is your space. Learn, share and get inspired.

00:00:31:01 - 00:00:40:00
Speaker 1
Regular listeners will be happy to see that we're back to our standard format, and I welcome back my erudite co-host, Gareth Wilkins. Welcome back, Gareth.

00:00:40:01 - 00:01:03:13
Speaker 2
Thanks, Alfie. You flatter me with that adjective, so I'm not so sure our regular listeners will be all that pleased because you and Toby have done a fantastic job of covering while I was summering. And so thank you very much for keeping the content wheels turning and smashing out some insightful episodes. We've got a full line up of insightful interviews coming up as well, and some more by side breakdowns.

00:01:03:13 - 00:01:18:16
Speaker 2
So, you know, it's a busy season ahead, but here we are at the beginning of September and the whole kind of quarter and year beyond laid out before us. you know, I guess this episode is to talk about what that might have in store.

00:01:18:18 - 00:01:34:03
Speaker 1
Yes. I feel there's a lot of sort of back to school, back to work, end of summer energy, and we want to capitalize on that and reflect on on what's gone. And yeah, look at the look at the year ahead. Look at what's happening in M&A. Why think the market off market, all the things that we we like to delve into.

00:01:34:08 - 00:01:39:03
Speaker 1
This is the best time to do that but a couple of months of good work ahead of us before we have another break for Christmas.

00:01:39:05 - 00:02:08:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, although it hasn't felt this year like the world ground to a summary halt. I think there's been this greater bias for action amongst the investor and acquirer community during August, which, you know, has felt like despite the good weather, people have still wanted to, you know, be at their desks or at least on the end of their mobiles doing deals and backing projects, which is which is really encouraging.

00:02:08:06 - 00:02:11:18
Speaker 2
I think it's a sign of returning confidence more than anything.

00:02:11:18 - 00:02:19:17
Speaker 1
And yeah, absolutely. Well, I was going to say it's either that or the fact that we had a nice spring so nobody was desperate for a bit of August sun.

00:02:19:18 - 00:02:51:04
Speaker 2
Maybe we all got too much for the sun, but cool. So it's been an interesting few months of M&A activity within the M&A space as well, which is yeah, quite ironic and interesting because we we heard last month in early August that the US platforms are starting to consolidate in the M&A search tools and an ideal suite tools.

00:02:51:06 - 00:03:30:07
Speaker 2
So we we see data cycle and grata acquiring subscribe and so there's some consolidation happening there which is super interesting. And then on the lender side, we have seen the announcement that shore sure. But bank buying thin cuts or merging acquiring then gets so yes that may or may not be a massive change. couple of lenders coming together, but certainly these are two buoyant players in the space that have written a lot of checks to to get a lot of deals done over the last few years.

00:03:30:09 - 00:03:35:06
Speaker 2
So be interesting to see how the landscape looks post that integration.

00:03:35:08 - 00:03:41:10
Speaker 1
And do you think the shorts and think that's integration is a result of the high street lenders coming back?

00:03:41:11 - 00:04:10:11
Speaker 2
Yes, I think it's exactly a consequence of that. There were some wilderness years post COVID with the interest rates going up. The sort of high fee banks didn't really want to touch SMB lending, particularly SMB M&A to a greater extent than they did previously. And I think that gap was more than adequately filled by the alternative lenders who obviously have different economics and different margins that they need to make and therefore different interest rates.

00:04:10:13 - 00:04:44:03
Speaker 2
And I think the return of these high street banks to the fray with their rates is going to create some more competition. And that will lead to, I guess, consolidation amongst the alternative lenders. But that's probably good for scale. It's probably good for professionalization of certain products that maybe previously were emerging products. So yeah, I think it's all part of the the fun of the fair rate, but no doubt they'll be stronger than the sum of the parts.

00:04:44:05 - 00:05:06:04
Speaker 1
We'd like to think. So it's exciting and it's been a really busy time in UK S and B M&A. So I shared some news on our links in page about a month ago that said that we've seen increased activity in M&A in the UK, and I surmise that it was probably from, you know, the larger end of the market but actually experience H1 2025 review just came out.

00:05:06:04 - 00:05:19:13
Speaker 1
So the SME bees accounted for 88% of disclosed value transactions in the UK. So so fewer blockbuster deals and a lot more mid-market movement, which is exactly the world our our audience operating well.

00:05:19:13 - 00:05:44:16
Speaker 2
That's where the gold is. I think that's where the value creation comes from. I think, you know, the, the, the take privates in the fewer of those opportunities. You know, there was a big spate of private equity taking public companies that were sort of struggling at the lower end of the market, taking them private and then relisting them in a different geography arbitrage doing the geography, for example.

00:05:44:17 - 00:06:13:04
Speaker 2
And I think, you know, there's only so many those that you can do. There is only candidates at a given time, but also in terms of large businesses that are available for sale, the large private businesses that were available for acquisition, you know, in the hundreds of millions non-listed since that, that's some tricky it's a it's a it's a small playing field now and there's lots of private equity funds that that need to have drop out of that they need to do deals.

00:06:13:06 - 00:06:34:02
Speaker 2
So it's for a long time now, you know, a good few years it's been the case that deal activity has been coming down the value chain in terms of company sizes and the sort of lower mid-market is being increasingly buoyant. So it doesn't really surprised me that there's so many deals going on. I think you've got to look at also the nature of those deals.

00:06:34:02 - 00:07:05:05
Speaker 2
So are they private equity or are they trade acquisitions? You know, in periods of slower organic growth, companies are going to look to buy competitors or make adjacent or vertical acquisitions to improve their their position and put their cash to use. That's certainly good practice. So I think that plus obviously, as we know, the increasing number of acquisition entrepreneurs in the space and employee ownership trusts, there are, you know, multiple, multiple avenues for for sellers to to exit.

00:07:05:07 - 00:07:29:05
Speaker 2
And it's still woefully low in terms of number of deals that are getting done. It's good to see a greater emphasis on the lower middle market. I don't think it comes down necessarily far enough to just to well serve those businesses that are circa a million. And even though that were 1 to 2 million, if it don't, I think that's I still still get left behind to an extent.

00:07:29:06 - 00:07:38:12
Speaker 2
So there's a job to do there on that broad base of the pyramid, but great to see the the small smaller businesses or the lower mid-market being buoyant.

00:07:38:14 - 00:07:55:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I feel like, as you said, it will pull through. You know, it does work its way down the chain. And we said there's a lot of other positives going on at the moment. You know, there's more lending on the market. There's a lot more appetite for people to sell and get into some of the regulatory and other reasons behind that.

00:07:55:04 - 00:08:07:19
Speaker 1
But it does feel like we are pulling in the right direction and it is gathering a bit pace. We are still, you know, some ways behind our our cousins in the US, but we we're moving in the right direction by certainly.

00:08:07:19 - 00:08:59:08
Speaker 2
And I think that that waterfall, that cascade that you speak of actually creates a bit of a kind of incubation or an environment for a conveyer belt, if you will, of growing smaller businesses, getting them to a material size where they can be either bolted onto or acquired outright by the larger private equity or trade players. And so acquisition, entrepreneurship, it has this great role to play in, you know, taking those smaller businesses that are just below that viable threshold for acquisition to, you know, a larger and immaterial entity and either through their own strategic sort of small business platforming and and roll ups or just by rejuvenating and yet speedily growing the businesses that

00:08:59:08 - 00:09:10:15
Speaker 2
they buy and just tipping them over that you know, million or one and a half million threshold inhibit the value. So I think self-funded search is going to benefit as a consequence of this trend.

00:09:10:16 - 00:09:17:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I'm interested and really exciting times choice.

00:09:17:04 - 00:09:47:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, but the hugely exciting is just, you know, there was a period two years ago where you would speak to a new searcher, you know, once every month maybe someone would be popping up and saying, I'm starting a search now. You know this The Daily It's fabulous to see the real momentum through which entrepreneurs have been switching to this space and seeing the value of of of buying rather than building from zero.

00:09:48:00 - 00:09:58:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, that definitely correlates with the move Music shift from VC to private equity. And, you know, it's really nice to see the business schools pushing this in greater number now.

00:09:59:00 - 00:10:19:05
Speaker 1
Absolutely. As I say, that leads us nicely into our first topic for this, which is the growth of education in business schools in the UK and Europe. And we've talked about this before that, you know, if we look at the U.S. as a blueprint for the ACA movement, it kind of started in academia, right? You have the Chicago Business School and it was happening outside of that.

00:10:19:05 - 00:10:39:18
Speaker 1
They sort of led the charge and it grew across the schools and more and more services before out into the ecosystem. And they've had the time to grow into those roles. But it's really starting to take root here. So I know lots of business schools have I've touched on this, but I think, you know. LBB now offering an ECI elective and they have a student run ACA club.

00:10:39:19 - 00:10:44:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would say they've been the strongest in the UK for a few years on this.

00:10:44:07 - 00:10:49:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. INSEAD also has a lab dedicated ACA hub, yet and such funding.

00:10:49:17 - 00:11:08:13
Speaker 2
In the last couple of years they have come on leaps and bounds. I mean, if you'd attended the first ETA kind of get together INSEAD, what, three or four years ago, it was it was a you know, you could have filled the broom cupboard, but but you went to the one earlier this year and it was it was oversubscribed.

00:11:08:13 - 00:11:19:01
Speaker 2
It was a full lecture theater. There was go hundreds of people there. So, you know, the speed at which this is gaining momentum is incredible. Did you have some others that you testing that? Sorry if I spoke, I'd be.

00:11:19:02 - 00:11:33:17
Speaker 1
An interesting one that I just discovered. Obviously, we do look beyond the shores of of the UK is Rotterdam's. Erasmus Business School just launched the ETF society as well and they actually have their first High society conference at the end of this month on.

00:11:33:19 - 00:11:35:04
Speaker 2
The indicator member is it?

00:11:35:06 - 00:11:54:02
Speaker 1
Yes. Sorry. Yes. At the end of November. And you know we I've talked to often about SCA and you know, in Southern Europe and it's very prolific in Spain and it's thought to grow in in Italy. But to see it, you know, reaching its tentacles across across the rest of Europe is is also super encouraging.

00:11:54:03 - 00:12:15:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think if you were to write a recipe book around the ingredients required and the sort of cooking process to make a properly functioning ecosystem for search in a geography or if you were kind of, you know, looking to drop behind enemy lines and sort of make a beachhead, there's a certain series of things that you need.

00:12:15:01 - 00:12:50:13
Speaker 2
And I think that played out originally in the U.S. and then in Spain and now in London and Northern Europe. You can see these things coalescing. And fundamentally that that all began with the kind of the kernel inside these academic institutions, but surrounded by these family offices that had the appetite to back these projects. They were you know, they were the probably the vanguard, really, these family offices of being willing to embrace these alternative assets, this these alternative projects and see the benefit of, you know, the IRR that comes from them.

00:12:50:15 - 00:13:27:14
Speaker 2
And, you know, by by seeing that play out in in the north eastern states of the US and and around the sort of Madrid Barcelona corridor in in Spain, you can see how London now is starting to emulate that with more and more family offices kind of circling the LPs ecosystem. But that's pushing out to like Cambridge Judge and Oxford Z and I think even the Warwick Business Schools looking at ETA Society and there are a few others which so, you know, is really starting to come of age.

00:13:27:14 - 00:13:55:06
Speaker 2
And I don't think we held a gathering of family offices about six weeks ago. And, you know, the this isn't foreign to them anymore. This isn't a country of that is. And it's not off the radar. Yeah. And so that'll only increase, I think, as we start to get more example exits coming from the first vintage of of UK churches.

00:13:55:08 - 00:14:37:15
Speaker 2
So yeah, I'm really excited about how this is playing out and you can see the same in Benelux. So there's a number of Belgian and Dutch family offices that are now active investors in search. So you're you're not advice of. Adams your search right Capital partners you know these are really starting to catalyze the space in their respective markets same in Germany with you know I think on a almost monthly basis we're seeing another funding institution spinning up in Germany, specifically to to back this sort of initial stand by out opportunities that search brings.

00:14:37:15 - 00:14:51:00
Speaker 2
So, I mean, it's how how far up to the right can you take this, I guess how how far can you extrapolate this? So we are we at the thin end of a wedge or is it is it reaching a maturity?

00:14:51:02 - 00:15:14:16
Speaker 1
I think there's still some way to go because when I spoke to Robin Gold Hogan from Know Boston at a similar car symposium and his role is investor relations and he said that, you know, even now a major part of his job is educating family offices on this asset class. He still speaks to, you know, very well established and well funded family offices who have not really come across this before.

00:15:14:16 - 00:15:30:05
Speaker 1
So I think there is still some way to go. And I think that is actually encouraging. I think if we were at the kind of deal volume that we're at now and reaching maturity, I'd be worried. I do think we are at the end of the way. So I think there's still a long way to go. In a good way, though, I think there's still room to grow.

00:15:30:06 - 00:16:13:15
Speaker 2
The difference, I think with Robin and Nova Stone and others, you know, you've got all interests aligned. Ralph Gross's new venture with Charles Williams and team and Peter had you the the I think the the difference between that and equity cap funding of individual deals is that what family offices and institutions particularly haven't had the opportunity to invest in is diversified portfolios through a through a fund structure that hasn't there hasn't been really readily available for you've had to spin up your own, if you like, portfolio and invest directly in these deals.

00:16:13:15 - 00:16:44:03
Speaker 2
So that's where all of these kind of family offices and regular investors in search have come from. But if you go one layer beyond those and you look for limited partners to come into a diversified fund structure, building portfolios, that is where the education emphasis I think is is having to be spent. So, you know, Robin and David and the team there that have been raising from LPs have have had to sort of lead that charge, if you will, of switching institutions onto this.

00:16:44:03 - 00:17:12:11
Speaker 2
And still like the pension funds, the insurance firms, you know, the the big institutions that would want access to fund structures are only now just toeing the water into that. It's still there with the family offices, if you will, that are the main LPs having a go at this. So I'm super excited to see how that space is going to unfold because you could have said the same about VC 25 years ago.

00:17:12:12 - 00:17:33:02
Speaker 1
So and you go back to your analogy about, you know, the ingredients. Do you think that the sort proliferation of of business schools talking about E.T.A. and that kind of academic backing lends enough credence to kind of help bring those big institutions to the table that I think this relates to the pension funds, etc., that might have otherwise been a little bit dubious.

00:17:33:02 - 00:17:38:11
Speaker 1
You think it kind of legitimizes the space a little bit more for those big lenders?

00:17:38:13 - 00:18:02:05
Speaker 2
I think it helps because it creates a bit of an ecosystem. It creates some studies, it creates statistics. And you know, we're not short of a few graphs and a few tables now that come out from Stanford's in the ACS and the INSEAD and LBA. So they're all super helpful to to educate us. But I think the big catalysts will be exits.

00:18:02:07 - 00:18:24:06
Speaker 2
You know, it took unicorns in venture for the world to be a path to VCs and that's become a swollen movement that you know, was interesting capital faster than it could allocate it. And I think the same catalyst is necessary in search. The 35% average IRR is hidden under a bushel, right? It's not being sung from the rooftops.

00:18:24:07 - 00:18:59:13
Speaker 2
And so that's where there needs to be more kind of public examples, more press, more shining examples of how a small company became a big company. You know, there was this cycle and, you know, massive return for all the original investors that had the foresight to back the project. If we get a few more of those, not only does it cultivate the paying it forward piece, like I can see at the moment, you've got a number of excited tech entrepreneurs who are backing search now because they've got capital and they want to pay it forward and they're looking for a buoyant emerging asset class.

00:18:59:14 - 00:19:20:16
Speaker 2
But interestingly, if if we create more organic future of backers, feature investors from excited entrepreneurs that have bought this journey like this on the website, for example, there's a few more of those I think, that will have the crowd effect of, you know, encouraging more money into into the space.

00:19:20:18 - 00:19:44:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think also part of the, you know, to go back to components of the unicorn thing with startups is because it is a bit slower and it does take a little bit longer. And we are and you know, there are fewer of deals going through. I think it's maybe part of the reason why that excitement is yet to sort of bubble over and because those 35% returns are great, but it's often a little slower than when a building is selling a unicorn startup in three years or whatever.

00:19:44:17 - 00:19:47:00
Speaker 1
They, you know, the most well known.

00:19:47:02 - 00:20:14:02
Speaker 2
VC made a good trade out of magic, right out of multiple and invested capital and demonstrating on paper that your valuations had increased and the sort of primary funding rounds or dilutive funding rounds of putting new capital in to give businesses growth equity, if you like, to, to to, to drive them upwards in each one of those milestones created a new valuation kind of ceiling, if you like, or raise the bar.

00:20:14:06 - 00:20:34:08
Speaker 2
And so it was at that point that people could feel like they were getting an increase in the book value of their investments. Right. Whether that be turned into distributions and liquidity was was the question. That's why I think we're we're facing this kind of disenfranchisement towards venture unfortunately during this kind of little dip in in the cycle.

00:20:34:10 - 00:21:20:10
Speaker 2
But I think what we'll see as more distributions come from the kind of more rapid, I think fund cycles that are going to come for these the search funds, the actually that 35% will become more tangible, more known to investors. My worry if if I was to have a worry, my worry is that the the amount of capital flowing into the space, particularly for the search phase of traditional search funds, is not keeping pace with the number of new searches coming to the market and know we are seeing a very steep increase in the number of new searches, new new traditional search funds.

00:21:20:12 - 00:21:42:08
Speaker 2
And yeah, I don't know how you're seeing it play out, but I'm seeing the consequence of more choice for the search fund investors leading to some new trends, shall we say, in the way that they interact with with the search funds.

00:21:42:10 - 00:22:04:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I find some interesting stats on this actually. So the median number of investors per search fund is actually increased to around an average of 18 backers per fund. So you know, and that fresh non existent. yeah. Well they have they send to a larger network of small investors to meet to meet the needs. So you've got you know demand is outstripping supply essentially.

00:22:04:04 - 00:22:36:14
Speaker 2
Or I mean I'm seeing larger and larger search phases. So you know time was you'd raised 300 grand. Now it's double that, you know, seeing searches, raising five and 600,000 to see themselves through two years, a lot of which get spent on sourcing and due diligence and, you know, regles and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, it could be that, you know, you're raising a bigger round, a bigger search phase of the pre-seed of buyouts.

00:22:36:15 - 00:23:02:01
Speaker 2
And but as it as a consequence, your, you know, the check sizes haven't increased for that for many of the institutions really people aren't going, yeah, I'll write you a 50 grand check with. So the unit sizes are going to have to stay the same, but you need more units. So I guess that means you need more, more LPs, more, more investors that I've heard of.

00:23:02:03 - 00:23:28:14
Speaker 2
Search funds of late taking longer to close. That raises partly because the raises a bigger but partly because the decision times are a bit more protracted now amongst the investors and there's more conditionality I've noticed. So the come back when you're at x percent, you know, that's almost becoming universal amongst the sort of established, you know, the OGs of search fund investing.

00:23:28:16 - 00:23:37:08
Speaker 2
come back when you're at 50% or come up when you're 80%. If everybody said that no one never get to 50 or so, it's an interesting paradox. The creating.

00:23:37:10 - 00:23:52:01
Speaker 1
Why do you think that is? Why do you think that we're moving in that direction? Because I know first time that that's, you know, what happened in sort of seeing start startups over the last couple of years. You know, if the same general reasons you think just sort of less money in the space so investors are more cautious.

00:23:52:03 - 00:24:19:13
Speaker 2
I think more choice, more opportunity but but the that's to say their fund sizes haven't necessarily kept pace with the you know they have a portfolio construction to achieve and let's say they want to back 15 searches or 20 searches right. If if that if 15 searches now represents 10% of the pool of searches, rather than 50% of the pool of searches, you know, they go they've got to kiss more frogs.

00:24:19:13 - 00:24:59:02
Speaker 2
They've got to go speak to more people. They've got to screen more candidates. They've got to become more robust about how they screen those candidates. So the process just takes longer. And, you know, there's a greater likelihood that more will fall by the wayside and won't reach that criticality. And and so that hedging that perhaps comes with the consequence of that is almost a natural, natural byproduct whereby, you know, do I want to back the wrong horse and rush into backing these people or do I want to see how they're going to get on and follow the journey of three or four of these before I make my decision as to which one of those

00:24:59:02 - 00:25:22:13
Speaker 2
is going to get my ticket. And we saw it play out exactly that way with we you know, the proliferation of start ups meant the capital became even though there's more capital, it just became more less concentrated and more the VCs had more choice. So they had to establish more robust processes to determine which ones they would invest in.

00:25:22:15 - 00:25:25:00
Speaker 2
It just takes it takes a little longer.

00:25:25:02 - 00:25:34:19
Speaker 1
And what do you think that means for the acquisition entrepreneurs who, you know, make up a large portion of our audience? Is it is it about becoming the most attractive frog?

00:25:35:01 - 00:26:06:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely. I do think you have to differentiate. You know, you look at a lot of the searcher websites and there is a com a common theme and a common structure to them. And so telling them apart on their merits, you know, has to be done in an interview. And I know so with some of these search funds, investors have, you know, case studies that they ask you to do.

00:26:06:14 - 00:26:36:00
Speaker 2
They have personality psychometric profiling, that they do you they they they set you some challenges. These are all useful kind of filters, if you like, assessment criteria to determine whether you are, you know, likely to score highly in their in their measurement system. I am I think what it will mean for searchers is that they they probably need to have some deals up their sleeve to talk confidently about.

00:26:36:01 - 00:27:00:05
Speaker 2
I think the hypothetical and I'll get shot down by some of the search fund investors out there that just want the searchers to focus on raising the search and then go off and do the actual sourcing. But but I do think in this day and age, you know, you could be sourcing in parallel to your search, raise and give yourselves some optionality about, you know, which channel you then end up going.

00:27:00:06 - 00:27:30:05
Speaker 2
But it helps to sit in an interview, I think, and talk confidently and knowledgeably about some of the candidate companies that you are reviewing rather than rely on hypotheticals and case studies. I think you get a more grown up conversation and maybe you create a bit more momentum around, look, this deal is is in motion. You know, we're going to diligence it in the next 16 weeks.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:56:05
Speaker 2
We'd love to have the search phase underway. Yeah, and maybe that's just overambitious, but I do think it certainly helps to have some examples to point to and say, look, this is the kind of business we want to be ready in time, but this is the kind of business that we would like to look at. And we've done some, you know, sort of pre diligence, if you will, to determine why we liked it and share that with you.

00:27:56:07 - 00:28:33:06
Speaker 2
I don't think that would hurt because it supports those that are intellectually attracted by search from those that are operationally, geared towards search. You know what I mean? Like thus I do worry, I think part of the minefield that the search fund investors are navigating is who just wants me to pay their salary for the next two years versus who's genuinely got a bias for action to go out and acquire a business and get it, you know, over the line and start operating it because that's that latter camp are the ones that generate returns.

00:28:33:08 - 00:28:57:03
Speaker 2
What we don't want to see is a sort of poisoning of the, well, if you will, of more searches being backed that don't come to fruition. And by a company like that would distort the numbers kind of tragically. So I think some of that hesitation is coming from, well, I don't want to back somebody that is is just looking to raise the money to sit in search for two years.

00:28:57:03 - 00:29:04:03
Speaker 2
I want to back somebody that's going to get this done and deliver me a return. And that's getting, I think, more difficult to find.

00:29:04:04 - 00:29:22:07
Speaker 1
Okay. How do you think that searchers can demonstrate that they do have that bias, recognizing that, you know, going out and doing some sourcing? Do you think that's the best thing? Do you think maybe, you know, taking part in one of the incubator programs or, you know, what do you think they can do to it's it's put their head above the parapet?

00:29:22:09 - 00:29:51:15
Speaker 2
Well, I think there's a there's a natural inclination towards experience to entrepreneurs. So you're seeing some exited tech founders. Alex Dent, for example, he he got backed really reasonably swiftly because he'd already, you know, delivered some great returns as an operator to the investors that backed him in his venture, Luke Grubb and Tom Fry that are running LLC Heritage Partners.

00:29:51:15 - 00:30:18:02
Speaker 2
They yeah, they have credibility. Tom's at BCG. Luke was a founder. Hello Hellofresh like you would back up because yeah, they've done that, they've done the work. So I think those guys are finding it that they are standing out. Right? But the it makes it more difficult for the what were the traditional search candidates full track search which are the MBA freshly minted MBA grads that this is the first thing they want to do with their career.

00:30:18:02 - 00:30:31:04
Speaker 2
All this is, you know, they haven't run a company before, but they did. The whole trad thing was that was was posed to fund them, to go and do that and learn on the job, if you will. I worry that they won't get the funding as as much. Go ahead.

00:30:31:05 - 00:30:52:10
Speaker 1
I'm sorry. Do you think that there is more than because the ecosystem is becoming more similar, that that such acquisition entrepreneurs can learn from startups in that sense? So, you know, having been through this fund fundraising process myself, yeah, they do. What's the experience? They want to see that maybe you know, you worked at X, Y, Z company, you've been through the process before.

00:30:52:11 - 00:31:12:00
Speaker 1
Is there maybe some onus on searchers to, you know, even post MBA go and work for recently acquire company team up somebody that's researching a show. They think through the process and they know the struggles they're in and they're not just, you know, freshly minted MBA with maybe some industry experience and they're going into it with not as much knowledge, is it?

00:31:12:00 - 00:31:13:07
Speaker 1
Perhaps they could.

00:31:13:08 - 00:31:44:00
Speaker 2
You're already seeing the savvy MBA students and grads going that route and actually partnering up, either interning or going in as operating partners or whatever with these search funds and being able to demonstrate they've got some experience in those firms or in the searches before they then go off and create their own vehicles. And I think that's super savvy and it protects the process.

00:31:44:00 - 00:31:51:03
Speaker 2
But actually it may not be a bad thing that these people come out with more experience.

00:31:51:05 - 00:32:12:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that there's also some scope for searchers to go in and maybe even work for search funds as well. I actually spoke to a guy that works at Moon Base while we were at Syracuse Symposium and that was how he how he works with Mr. Rahimi. He went to him and asked him for funding and he said, actually, come and work with me and learn the ropes and then I'll find you later down the line.

00:32:12:07 - 00:32:23:14
Speaker 1
So that could be another route in as well. And he gets to see it from the other side of the car and then he's going nuts. Some really valuable experience that as I know, people done this again, working for VCs and then they translate that into funding startups.

00:32:23:16 - 00:32:57:17
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah, it is ever been thus. But yeah, working for the search fund investors or working for a search fund I think is definitely a sort of worthwhile exercise to do to cut your teeth before you then go off and and start your acquisition journey yourself. And of course all of this is made evermore possible. You know, the being able to talk about deals that you've got under review, being able to source more actively, if you will, more efficiently.

00:32:57:19 - 00:33:19:18
Speaker 2
All of this is being expeditiously improved by tech and that the model that was founded in the eighties, you know, it had to navigate that the time and the technology that was available, which, you know, was very old school, very traditional. Right? It was it was shoe leather and the phone directory, you know, and trade shows and pressing the flesh.

00:33:20:00 - 00:33:43:06
Speaker 2
And here we are 40 years later, and you've got AI and you've got, you know, automations and tools, you know, a plethora of tools. But there's crunch amongst them, too, to help you, but you search on autopilot. And I think that changes the landscape a little bit. I think, you know, I have to quit my job in order to search mentality.

00:33:43:08 - 00:34:06:09
Speaker 2
I think when you quit, your job becomes potentially an option. You know, do you do it when you've got a pipeline of of on and off market deals that you know, you're busily cultivating rather than when you've got a blank canvas at the very beginning? And I don't know, I just I just feel like the tech is a bit of a catalyst for a change in the trend.

00:34:06:11 - 00:34:30:09
Speaker 1
hugely. I mean, you know, we're seeing a move from the research phase even before you begin outreach, you know, that's been slashed from, you know, weeks and months to Alice. And that's something that, you know, we were really passionate about when we started Base Crunch was that we spoke to lots of people who were, you know, combing through five or six data sources, trying to patch it together.

00:34:30:09 - 00:34:46:05
Speaker 1
I think if you remember, one of our early design partners was paying his kids to input data into an Excel spreadsheet he was paying us. So a couple of quit line while they were home from uni because it's just a slow and painstaking process and it would take a couple of months to build a list to then go out and do the outreach for.

00:34:46:05 - 00:34:59:04
Speaker 1
And then you have to wait for, you know, outreach replies. And that takes some time as well. And I think, you know, being able to to slash that time and to get to conversation that much faster is absolutely can be a huge catalyst for change.

00:34:59:06 - 00:35:14:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I had this other client that he was paying his kids to lick the stamps and seal the envelopes and, you know, just do the printing and sending out the mail much so I think yeah this tech if there's any negative consequence it's these kids are at work.

00:35:14:18 - 00:35:16:11
Speaker 1
Yeah that was.

00:35:16:13 - 00:35:18:02
Speaker 2
Another way to buy the book money.

00:35:18:03 - 00:35:52:18
Speaker 1
Yeah that was my mission at Biz Crunch to put students out of work. But no, and I think that, you know, obviously this is something we've been a big proponent of at this point. She's sort of advent. They are becoming much more than, you know, a machine for chat bots. I read some interesting stats and output one of my sources at the bottom this video from you only wants to read a bit more and that a poll of researchers this was in the U.S. but we can translate it loosely here so that the from the 18% who currently regularly use AI in their search is looking to rise by 27 to 80%, which is significant,

00:35:52:19 - 00:36:00:01
Speaker 1
shows a significant move in that direction. I would be surprised actually, if it's as low as 80% in a couple of years time. I think the adoption quite a bit faster than that.

00:36:00:01 - 00:36:38:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's going to be table stakes and I think it's not just in your search or just in your outreach. I think it's in your triaging, your diligence, seeing, you know, you know, we're at the cusp of being able to press a button on your deals in your deal tracker and get an industry report about that particular company, how it sits in the in the context of the industry that it serves like these kind of these additional that are, you know, at your fingertips now to be able to really help you make an informed decision about the businesses that you want to you want to run with, I think are going to be super helpful.

00:36:38:09 - 00:36:45:18
Speaker 2
And, you know, probably being an exponent for the number of searches and hopefully for the number of deals like.

00:36:46:00 - 00:37:06:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it has to be. I think, you know, at the moment there's a sort of feeling we're moving in a direction, but it's sort of wading through treacle. I think again, a lot of the paperwork stuff and the due diligence when you about kind of conveyor belt of buyers, you know, buying companies, improving their metrics, getting their revenue up, maybe packaging up the cup more roll ups and setting up and then starting that cycle again.

00:37:06:15 - 00:37:30:11
Speaker 1
And I think the if the time to, you know, complete finding, complete deals shrinks from two years to two months and then you know, that's going to be a huge catalyst for growth in ECI. And I think that's something that some of the I'm very excited about. But I think it's something that our listeners and the wider community should be excited about because I think it's a real sort of strap a rocket to the back of of the movement.

00:37:30:13 - 00:37:55:14
Speaker 2
The only way it shrinks to months versus years, though, in reality is with better collaboration and more of a network effect. So, you know, you've got the thing that still baffles me about search is the blank canvas situation of, you know, and what's left behind in the wake after a searcher has done one deal like, you know, you you start with this top of funnel and there are thousands of potential companies and you get down to effectively one along the journey.

00:37:55:14 - 00:38:19:02
Speaker 2
You've had a fair few conversations, but you just haven't you haven't progressed with some companies, but you throw them back, you know, you've fished, you've caught and you've thrown them back and it's for someone else to go in that big blue ocean and find that same fish, which really I find baffling because you know that someone has taken that seller on an emotional intellectual journey towards exiting their business.

00:38:19:03 - 00:38:29:14
Speaker 2
I think that made them ready for the next search or acquirer to come along and pick up that conversation and move it forward. And it just hasn't till now been the infrastructure for that to happen.

00:38:29:15 - 00:38:51:12
Speaker 1
I totally agree. I think for a business owner that hasn't explored the option of of exit him and the succession plans which which lots happen I think that move from 0 to 1, I haven't considered it at all and now I'm thinking about it is a bigger mindset than going from 1 to 10, which is the actual sale of the business because I know obviously deals can break down and terms change and things pop up in due diligence and what have you.

00:38:51:12 - 00:38:59:01
Speaker 1
But I think once you've got them over the line of I would actually quite like to sell my business, that's a massive part of about one. And yes.

00:38:59:03 - 00:39:21:01
Speaker 2
It works, it needles away at it. You know, as a as a seller, you're like you're intellectually committed to the idea, you know, you've almost spent the money or I'll go out and buy my new house or buy back your bill or buy the holiday home in Marbella or whatever. So, you know, once you've made that kind of journey from 0 to 1 journey of I'm off on, I'm on, well, it's hard.

00:39:21:01 - 00:39:39:12
Speaker 2
Go back to putting that back in the box. Right? So but I think what we have got macro economically is a lot of kind of conspiring factors that are creating an increase in the number of sellers. So we all know about the Salvation Army and we know we've got the sort of demographic pressure, the generation of wealth transfer.

00:39:39:14 - 00:40:01:05
Speaker 2
I'm not going to go back over that, but that is still a massive driver. But add to that the kind of compounding tax burden and bureaucratic burden on business owners that have, you know, had 30 or 40 years running their businesses and have never known it So challenging and less rewarding, if you like, on a day to day basis than it has been in recent years.

00:40:01:07 - 00:40:25:08
Speaker 2
You know, you've got a lot of motivated sellers that are like, I want to I want to cash in it, particularly because of the tapering off of the business as it's both relief and business, property relief and like there there is a ticking clock for for these folks now. So it really is, I think to an extent a buyer's market, particularly if you're up in the regions like sorry, to the regions Manchester, I know that's where you live now, but the.

00:40:25:08 - 00:40:27:12
Speaker 1
Region beyond the wall. Yeah.

00:40:27:13 - 00:40:47:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly that. Sorry. But yeah, if you're going outside of the bubble of the southeast where you know, multiples are a little bit more toppy because there's more competition, if you get out to the west mids and the north west at the north, east and and beyond, there are some fabulous businesses that you know don't want hundreds of times EBIT.

00:40:47:18 - 00:41:07:04
Speaker 2
You know, they're just looking for a credible exit and often with seller finance available and all that kind of stuff. So so I think there's there's a there's still a plethora of company. I mean, we've calculated it probably 36 years worth of deal flow the current rates of annual acquisition. I mean something has to happened to mop that up, right.

00:41:07:06 - 00:41:25:13
Speaker 1
Well, and perhaps more so because we are seeing more and more businesses either reaching that, you know, the one mill threshold, which is generally this lower limit for us on this crunch and also more and more business owners reaching retirement age. And that's only going to accelerate. So I think that that the number of businesses coming to the table is growing even faster than the search is.

00:41:25:13 - 00:41:41:13
Speaker 1
And actually, if we go back to what we spoke about earlier, the one piece of the puzzle that's missing is the funding, because we've got more and more searchers coming to the market, more and more sellers come into the market. If we could figure out that final piece of the puzzle and get some more money pumped in, we could really start to see a big shift.

00:41:41:15 - 00:42:01:18
Speaker 1
I want to go back to you briefly touched on the business property release and there's a there's a sort of pluses and minuses because so currently BPR means inheriting a business is tax free. But from April 2026, the relief will be cut to only 100% on the first 1 million business value. Right. And above that, it's 50% relief.

00:42:02:00 - 00:42:07:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it matches to a similar kind of mindset to the business asset disposal.

00:42:07:09 - 00:42:38:11
Speaker 1
Now that's potentially positive for acquirers because they're going to be more companies coming to the table, you know, nothing more and it's to sell before 2026. They want to maximize their retirement proceeds. Have you less attracted to go succession plans for your family? But then that's also a potentially a negative for inheritance and for succession because, you know, part of the reason we do this is not just to help searchers acquire businesses, but we do see a kind of wider economic issue of businesses not being passed down.

00:42:38:11 - 00:42:45:19
Speaker 1
You know, petering out the end of their life rather than continuing to be strong and employing people and making money in companies in the economy. So lots of.

00:42:45:19 - 00:43:10:12
Speaker 2
Succession. I saw that one, the kids not wanting to take it on. Yeah, we've seen it, but I am I've spoken to a number of sellers, a number of owners in recent months since that announcement of the budget about the potential. What about inheritance tax capture on private companies. So like historically, you could hand your business onto your kids and they wouldn't pay IHT on the on the company.

00:43:10:14 - 00:43:34:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, not so anymore. So we've heard the fury over farmers and you know, the same is true in the sort of the SMB land where these assets were to be generational and now they're under fire and it's motivated a number of owners to say, well, you know, what's the point? What why don't I seek my exit now? Yeah, because it might as well just be cash.

00:43:34:19 - 00:43:56:12
Speaker 1
Interestingly. And another thing that I've sort of uncovered while while, you know, researching and looking at some of the sort of future trends of this episode is there's been a real growth in employee trusts as well across the UK. And so there's a 0% capital gains incentive for qualifying sales for ownership trusts that obviously, you know, goes back to the the change in tax landscape.

00:43:56:14 - 00:44:15:02
Speaker 1
But it looks like the sector is throwing 37% year on year by mid 2024 6% of all UK business sales will go into employee trusts and and I had no idea that it was so large. I mean 6% is so small, something not a huge sample size. There aren't a huge amount of sales happen, but even a 6% is larger than than I'd expected.

00:44:15:03 - 00:44:21:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. So what you notice have been around for over a decade now. I think 2014 they came to the market. Yes.

00:44:21:05 - 00:44:22:09
Speaker 1
I get some people saying.

00:44:22:11 - 00:44:24:18
Speaker 2
How many have we seen in a decade?

00:44:24:19 - 00:44:28:00
Speaker 1
We have seen 650 in a decade.

00:44:28:02 - 00:44:51:14
Speaker 2
So about 60. Yeah. Yeah. Small bear. I mean, no wonder the growth rate is is 87% per annum. No, you're starting from a very low, very low base. I mean I think they serve a great purpose and I do think they, they can be complex to set up decreasingly because I think there are some great solutions now for that.

00:44:51:14 - 00:45:20:08
Speaker 2
But what I haven't heard of is the what next, like these employees that own the EOT and if given that tax free exit to the to the founder or that or the previous owner, what's their what's their option, What's their exit? Because it's quite difficult to buy a business that's owned by an YOTI. And you know, often this there's some conditionality around this long term earnout that's being paid to the to the original seller because it's being it's being paid off from the profits from the company.

00:45:20:13 - 00:45:37:14
Speaker 2
Well, some of that is often either like backloaded or well, in the event that we get an exit. So the multiple is it can be quite toppy in any what sense. So where you're going to get your arbitrage is questionable.

00:45:37:16 - 00:45:53:02
Speaker 1
That's super interesting. And I think as you said, it's been around for sort of over a decade. So there should be some more stories about, you know, the what next of votes, maybe that's maybe I can try and find someone to come on the podcast and give us their give us their story of what happened, because I think that's I.

00:45:53:02 - 00:46:14:09
Speaker 2
Know a very good solution for Variety set up. So perhaps we can get that team to come and give us the lowdown. I don't want to cast aspersions, but I too haven't heard of a formally IATI, you know, run business that is exited to private equity or listed or whatever. So I think it's just it adds complexity.

00:46:14:11 - 00:46:29:14
Speaker 1
Do you think maybe also there's different motivations? Do you think perhaps the type of business that goes into an 88 suits the business owner and the type of business and the culture? Therefore it's not said it's private equity and for it to stay within employee hands?

00:46:29:15 - 00:46:30:17
Speaker 2
One said.

00:46:30:19 - 00:46:52:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's an interesting route. I mean, again, perhaps not not relevant for for our listeners, but but yeah, it's something that I'd heard about but I didn't know, you know, even 650 of them in the last ten years is more than I'd expected. I thought it was a more sort of niche thing that you saw around. I don't know, I the only RTI I know of was, was around a range of organic greengrocers.

00:46:52:04 - 00:46:55:13
Speaker 1
I kind of thought it was, you know, just about anything like that, you know.

00:46:55:16 - 00:47:25:12
Speaker 2
It tends to be those kind of values LED show business is yeah remember you know, it's a it's a double edged sword that doesn't necessarily serve the the cold hearted capitalist very well because, yes, it's tax free, which is wonderful, but it's paid paid down over like a decade. So, you know, it's this and contagious in terms of net present value and like you know it doesn't keep pace with inflation.

00:47:25:14 - 00:47:50:04
Speaker 2
So isn't it better to have 70% of your money upfront and a two year deferred consideration from, you know, a an investor acquirer probably, yes. But, you know, it's pays your money, takes your choice. They're out there. It's a it's another method and I'm all for succession. So whatever gets these businesses carrying on and continues to contribute to the to the economy.

00:47:50:06 - 00:48:23:07
Speaker 2
I guess the last question we should probably end on is what businesses what are the trends going to be in terms of sectors? You know, we've seen a number of of very busy acquisition focused sectors both in B2C and B2B. And, you know, we hear the same ones being trotted out quite frequently. It's actually quite refreshing when I speak to a searcher and they're like, I'm going to look in the southeast and I look in the northwest and I'm going to look at nurseries, I'm going to look at engineering companies, and I'm like, happy days.

00:48:23:09 - 00:48:37:16
Speaker 1
You know? So yeah, I feel the same. I do the majority of the parents demo, so I speak to searchers who are actively looking all the time. And I yeah, if I speak to someone who says, you know, I used to be an engineer and I really want to buy engineering firms in the West Midlands, I'm like, Great.

00:48:37:16 - 00:48:52:14
Speaker 1
You can have much less competition too, as opposed to the more regular. I'd like to buy care home in the south east. So yeah, it is always refreshing to see to see some. But look, those those categories are popular for a reason.

00:48:52:16 - 00:49:37:09
Speaker 2
Yes. Well, yes, there's there's a kind of basic impetus there, which is aging population or increasing population. You the whole kind of health space is, you know, you've got to guarantee future there, haven't you? Yeah. So I can certainly see why. And historically there have been fragmented sectors so that they do speak to a need for consolidation. So also I get it, but I think they've got over over competed in terms of the number of searches, looking to acquire them and trying to achieve some kind of unicorn type outcomes from them because you end up paying for them or going in and it makes the the arbitrage, you know, the upside more difficult to achieve.

00:49:37:11 - 00:49:57:14
Speaker 1
I do wonder also if we start to see, you know, a lot more roll ups and consolidation in care homes as we did with vets in the previous decade. If that does bring the CMA knocking, who can we generally at the upper end of the market but have become more interested in consolidating industries because you know a lot of choice in high prices and what have you.

00:49:57:14 - 00:50:06:04
Speaker 1
And they took a real keen eye on vet services. And I wonder if are these more popular categories if that starts to become an issue going forward.

00:50:06:06 - 00:50:23:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. If the Competition and Markets Authority is starting to say, hang on a minute, we're losing the free market forces in this space. And yeah, they've been rolled up. It's probably folly after the fact. I think we're we're a fair way away from that with some of these health and and care businesses. There is still a lot of fragmentation.

00:50:24:01 - 00:50:51:16
Speaker 2
But I do think it's got great hope is the new track right Everybody everybody wants to it's similarly like nurseries at the other end of the spectrum already the life lifecycle nurseries are you know there's an increasing number of people buying early, some of them hugely well funded. We spoke about it in a previous pod. Yeah. So yeah, I think those in a B2C sense are are toppy.

00:50:51:18 - 00:51:15:04
Speaker 2
Nice to see renewed focus on some accounting roll ups. I've seen more of those. I guess the kind of obvious I play in accountancy same with legal the white collar professional services. That's an interesting avenue that I'm speaking to more people that are actively keen to to acquire that. And what else?

00:51:15:06 - 00:51:38:10
Speaker 1
Energy and renewables is another one that we might see a push in. I mean, obviously the market in general and consumers are starting to lean more towards renewables. But also, you know, there are government subsidies and plans and packages and all sorts of things out. This helps homeowners and businesses and move in that general direction. I know that we don't have to comply with everything, so we wise for even going down to sort trucking.

00:51:38:10 - 00:51:50:13
Speaker 1
As Toby and I talked about Haulage Company last month, there's going to be more regulations about sort of EV trucks and what have you. So that seems to be a more so growing category and one oncoming across more and more.

00:51:50:13 - 00:52:17:10
Speaker 2
Of an X to the maturity of things like PV and PV panels yet to overtake our panels and air source heat pumps and things like that. Those are areas of kind of like the electrical and plumbing type markets that are still very fragmented. They've reached a maturity. There's there's a sort of a vintage of those businesses that are now at scaling viable and have maybe ownership of the retirement age or whatever.

00:52:17:12 - 00:52:22:09
Speaker 2
But it speaks to yeah, the fact that this is here to stay, which is good.

00:52:22:11 - 00:52:42:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. And anecdotally I saw one of my very first jobs I worked for renewable energy company. I sold air source, ground source, heat pumps, wind turbines, the the ones this was almost 20 years ago. And at that point, yeah, it was it was a very new thing. I was speaking to lots of property developers who had never heard of this before but have to kind of bring them to site and show them one.

00:52:42:03 - 00:52:55:03
Speaker 1
This is an associate hub. This is how it works. And we've come a long way in that in that short space of time, I think, you know, you can buy PV tiles in IKEA now, so it's definitely a much more rural market.

00:52:55:04 - 00:53:37:02
Speaker 2
Sorry, he got big giggling about IKEA for some scary thought. Well, I mean I think ultimately if we can conclude anything, there's plenty more to play with. There's plenty of businesses in the sort of northern European, Western, European sort of markets that need to sell. There still isn't enough. I don't think we're saturated by the number of acquirers that can come along and do this play search, be they, you know, trade or investment buyers that we've still got a plethora of businesses that are too small for private equity and therefore need to be scaled before they have a defined exit opportunity.

00:53:37:02 - 00:54:00:11
Speaker 2
So, you know, it's an exciting time to be searching. I speak it's it's a joy and a privilege to be speaking to so many intelligent, driven people that have cottoned on that this space is going to be rewarding, more rewarding than than the venture, you know, for want of a better phrase.

00:54:00:12 - 00:54:26:02
Speaker 1
And it was a funny conversation when we talk about the difference between sort of venture and ECI because we are helping people do it, we are also a startup, so we're a bridge bridging that gap. I suppose we get to see sort of both both sides of the aisle. But yes, it's super exciting. I mean, it's one of my favorite things about working in this industry is, is is talking to all the new people, you know, learning about the new deals and the direction that the market is moving in and going to events again to about Syria, to cars and housing.

00:54:26:02 - 00:54:41:11
Speaker 1
I had such a great time talking to everybody there and feeling that sort of buzz in the room. And I get it on, you know, calls. I speak to, you know, researchers in all different parts of the world. I'm increasingly, you know, spoke about Germany area sweet Typically Germany saying you're can you come and do this for us in Germany and we need to pick a scene here.

00:54:41:11 - 00:54:50:16
Speaker 1
And we've got our first event in Berlin. And it's it is a really, really exciting space to be in right now. And I feel very blessed to be part of it.

00:54:50:18 - 00:55:15:00
Speaker 2
Well, to that end, look, yeah, let's collab, let's let's do whatever we can to help proliferate this movement more aggressively, more actively, expeditiously. Across across Europe, it's still lagging years behind the US. And you know, come one, come all. I think this there's plenty of opportunity here. Let's let's work together to make those opportunities a reality.

00:55:15:02 - 00:55:36:07
Speaker 1
Absolutely. And I think before we go, we've got some exciting news on that front in a couple of different avenues for Bitcoin. So again, we're always trying to push to make Asia more accessible and to help more acquisition entrepreneurs and encourage more sessions. So as of next week, we will actually be hosting a set of verified listings on our platform.

00:55:36:07 - 00:55:53:02
Speaker 1
So not only the off market search that we are best known for, but, you know, vetted, ready to contact listings from from sellers that we've spoken to and spent some time with. And I think that's a really exciting move for us and for our users.

00:55:53:03 - 00:56:17:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, look of market search is is vital. I think that's where the value is. But it takes time to cultivate both to make make the right fit with the seller's mindset. The point that they actually think you might be interested in a conversation. But then once you start the conversation, you've got to build a relationship. So, you know, that isn't Rome wasn't built in a day, so you can be frustrating if you're in a hurry.

00:56:17:03 - 00:56:48:12
Speaker 2
So having, you know, this is why a number of searches turn to the to the broker market. And I think that's you know, there are some really, really great independent brokers. We've lamented before some of the institutional kind of like style shops that may be off road but seem to make a lot of money in the process. And so I think there is room for a middle ground where, like, you know, the folks that have come through the off market piece and are now interested in being connected to other potential acquirers get could get a bit of exposure because those deals will get done more rapidly.

00:56:48:12 - 00:56:58:13
Speaker 2
So delighted that we're now in a position at this country to be putting some of those joining some of those dots and putting some of those policies together. You know, more to come.

00:56:58:15 - 00:57:32:13
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and that's that's all from us. We got another big, big announcement, which is towards the end of this month, we'll also be launching that this crunch virtual data room. And again, just a step towards becoming that operating system for for SBM And I I'm trying to make that due diligence process just easier, smoother and also the whole searching and sourcing process to make it more holistic, keeping it in one place, less view to think about when it comes to perhaps even the less exciting part of acquiring a business, which is, you know, finding data, doing outreach, tracking them, due diligence stuff, you know, it frees you up more time to do the

00:57:32:13 - 00:57:37:16
Speaker 1
fun, talk to people, go to site, build a growth plans, go out and fundraise.

00:57:37:17 - 00:58:01:04
Speaker 2
And given that we've made this an epic episode and we're now nudging up against the hour and I guess I'll get on my soapbox for a second and talk a little bit about what motivated us to build a VR rather than go and work with others that are out there already. It's very established. You know, there's plenty of other players in the market, many of them that are partying like it's 1995, some even built for each other.

00:58:01:05 - 00:58:28:02
Speaker 2
But we we wanted something that was fit for the air age so that you could, you know, very quickly rag and analyze. You could put an alarm across your your data and get some some insights. Now, the infrastructure required for that is a different shape to the traditional kind of data rooms. Yeah. I mean is driven API first and that is it built on modern modern infra.

00:58:28:02 - 00:58:51:12
Speaker 2
So that's what we set out to build. And you know, we're able to bring this to market now in an AI ready format. So watch this space. Certainly it's a very affordable and scalable solution for and brokers and acquaintances and various folks that might want to spin up data rooms for their clients, very agile and very integrated well with your products too.

00:58:51:13 - 00:59:00:00
Speaker 2
So listeners, if you're out there in the digital scene and they're looking to spin up data rooms programmatically, is crunch has you covered.

00:59:00:02 - 00:59:10:13
Speaker 1
Absolutely fantastic note to on this has been a mammoth episode but there's just been so much exciting stuff to cover. But I think that's all for me. Guys. Is there anything else for you this week?

00:59:10:15 - 00:59:14:02
Speaker 2
Nope. Keep on crunching until then, folks. Thanks a lot.

00:59:14:04 - 00:59:14:18
Speaker 1
Kevin Garnett, you.