INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Hello and welcome everybody to this NSPCC

KAREN SQUILLINO: Learning Podcast.

KAREN SQUILLINO: I'm Karen Squillino and I am a trustee

KAREN SQUILLINO: at Lift multi-academy trust.

KAREN SQUILLINO: It's a role that I've held for five years

KAREN SQUILLINO: now. I'm also the chair of

KAREN SQUILLINO: the wellbeing and safeguarding committee.

KAREN SQUILLINO: In addition to my role at Lift as

KAREN SQUILLINO: trustee, I'm also the Local Services

KAREN SQUILLINO: Director here at the NSPCC with a

KAREN SQUILLINO: responsibility for our local campaigning

KAREN SQUILLINO: work, our direct delivery to children and

KAREN SQUILLINO: young people in communities, but also our

KAREN SQUILLINO: work in schools. So there's some real

KAREN SQUILLINO: connection between my trustee role and

KAREN SQUILLINO: the day role. And I have with me today

KAREN SQUILLINO: colleagues from Lift, Habib and Jill.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So I'd like to ask you to introduce

KAREN SQUILLINO: yourselves now, if you could.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Jill?

JILL FULLER: Hello, my name is Jill Fuller.

JILL FULLER: I'm the Head of Safeguarding for Lift Schools

JILL FULLER: and I've been in this role for almost two

JILL FULLER: years now, but I've been with Lift Schools

JILL FULLER: for 10 years in total.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Hi there, I'm Habib Hussain.

HABIB HUSSAIN: I'm a deputy headteacher at a school in

HABIB HUSSAIN: North London called Aylward Academy, but I

HABIB HUSSAIN: also do a regional [safeguarding] role for

HABIB HUSSAIN: Lift Schools, and I oversee London and the

HABIB HUSSAIN: South.

KAREN SQUILLINO: I'm really excited to be talking to

KAREN SQUILLINO: Habib and Jill today because there's some

KAREN SQUILLINO: really great work going on at Lift and we

KAREN SQUILLINO: thought this would be a wonderful

KAREN SQUILLINO: opportunity to share what we're doing at

KAREN SQUILLINO: Lift around safeguarding and wellbeing.

KAREN SQUILLINO: I think the listeners are going to be

KAREN SQUILLINO: really interested to know more about the

KAREN SQUILLINO: roles and responsibilities of a

KAREN SQUILLINO: multi-academy trust when it comes to

KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding and pupils in their schools.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Just by way of context, at Lift we've got

KAREN SQUILLINO: 57 schools and around 34,000

KAREN SQUILLINO: children. So Jill, could you just give us

KAREN SQUILLINO: an explanation around that?

JILL FULLER: Yes, I can. And I think what's important is

JILL FULLER: that multi-academy trust schools have the

JILL FULLER: same statutory responsibilities for

JILL FULLER: safeguarding as any other school.

JILL FULLER: So we are governed by statutory documents,

JILL FULLER: Keeping Children Safe in Education (KCSIE),

JILL FULLER: which is updated annually, and also Working

JILL FULLER: Together to Safeguard Children.

JILL FULLER: And we work with all multi-agency partners as

JILL FULLER: any school would.

JILL FULLER: Sometimes there's a little bit of confusion

JILL FULLER: about multi-academy trusts and do they have

JILL FULLER: the same safeguarding requirements, and we

JILL FULLER: absolutely do.

JILL FULLER: But the way we've structured ourselves at

JILL FULLER: Lift Schools is we have a very clear

JILL FULLER: safeguarding assurance framework, which is

JILL FULLER: consistent for all our schools.

JILL FULLER: That is supported by a safeguarding

JILL FULLER: dashboard, safeguarding operating procedures

JILL FULLER: and in every single one of our

JILL FULLER: schools, we have what's called a designated

JILL FULLER: safeguarding lead.

JILL FULLER: You may know of that term as a

JILL FULLER: DSL. So we have 57 designated

JILL FULLER: safeguarding leads with teams in schools

JILL FULLER: working on safeguarding and complex

JILL FULLER: safeguarding issues every day.

JILL FULLER: And then to supplement the work in

JILL FULLER: the schools and to support that, we have what

JILL FULLER: are called regional designated safeguarding

JILL FULLER: leads and you might hear me refer to those as

JILL FULLER: our RDSLs.

JILL FULLER: We have five of those because Lift schools is

JILL FULLER: split into five regions and

JILL FULLER: a DSL in one of the schools

JILL FULLER: in the region will support other

JILL FULLER: schools in that region and also support the

JILL FULLER: central inclusion team in driving a

JILL FULLER: culture of excellence in our schools.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So just thinking about multi-academy

KAREN SQUILLINO: trusts generally then, before we get into

KAREN SQUILLINO: what we're doing at Lift, how does

KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding traditionally work within a

KAREN SQUILLINO: large multi-academy trust?

KAREN SQUILLINO: Because we've got schools up in the north

KAREN SQUILLINO: of England and right down to the south.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So what, in your view, would

KAREN SQUILLINO: it traditionally look like?

JILL FULLER: I think traditionally it probably has a

JILL FULLER: central team or a central lead and then we'll

JILL FULLER: have a DSL in each school who will report

JILL FULLER: into the principal, because ultimately a

JILL FULLER: principal is responsible for safeguarding in

JILL FULLER: their school. I don't think that there are

JILL FULLER: many other multi-academy trusts with the

JILL FULLER: spread geographically that we have and

JILL FULLER: therefore will have set up the regional model

JILL FULLER: that we had to support our schools.

JILL FULLER: Our network is such that we've got 57 DSLs.

JILL FULLER: They sit in our five regions, as you said,

JILL FULLER: Karen, from the north to the midlands, to the

JILL FULLER: south and everything in between.

JILL FULLER: And those regional DSL's work and network

JILL FULLER: with the DSL. So they can look very much at

JILL FULLER: the complexity of the cases, the regional

JILL FULLER: themes within the area that they are

JILL FULLER: set, and that will take account of all the

JILL FULLER: local context that is going on in the

JILL FULLER: communities around our schools.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Habib, I'm going to come to you next as

KAREN SQUILLINO: one of our regional DSLs.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Can you talk to us about the process that

KAREN SQUILLINO: you've been a part of to create this

KAREN SQUILLINO: regional DSL structure?

KAREN SQUILLINO: And then I'd be really interested to

KAREN SQUILLINO: understand more about what it looks like

KAREN SQUILLINO: in practice on the ground.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Yeah, sure.

HABIB HUSSAIN: I've been with Aylward Academy, which has

HABIB HUSSAIN: been part of Academies Enterprise Trust and

HABIB HUSSAIN: now Lift Schools for 19 years, this is my

HABIB HUSSAIN: 20th year, and I've been DSL now for over

HABIB HUSSAIN: 10 years. About three years ago, I was

HABIB HUSSAIN: approached by Jill and the trust, because

HABIB HUSSAIN: we obviously wanted to look at this

HABIB HUSSAIN: regional model, and we talked about why

HABIB HUSSAIN: that would be a great idea.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Before we set up this model, schools were

HABIB HUSSAIN: kind of working in silos.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Even though we're part of such a huge trust,

HABIB HUSSAIN: which you've just referred to, 57 schools

HABIB HUSSAIN: and so many students and we had schools

HABIB HUSSAIN: within a two-mile radius on my school, but

HABIB HUSSAIN: I didn't know who those DSLs were.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And we would only reach out to Jill in

HABIB HUSSAIN: crisis. It shouldn't be that way.

HABIB HUSSAIN: When you are such a big trust, you need to

HABIB HUSSAIN: look at the strengths of that, and one of

HABIB HUSSAIN: the strengths of that is having people like

HABIB HUSSAIN: myself — and I'm not the only one; when you

HABIB HUSSAIN: start to look around, you see just how much

HABIB HUSSAIN: experience is there.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Being a DSL is a very challenging job.

HABIB HUSSAIN: You have to deal with all sorts of very

HABIB HUSSAIN: challenging and very emotionally, kind of, evoking

HABIB HUSSAIN: cases on a day-to-day basis.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And what I've found, since taking this

HABIB HUSSAIN: regional role, is just how grateful

HABIB HUSSAIN: everyone is to finally have someone who's

HABIB HUSSAIN: kind of the glue to bring everyone

HABIB HUSSAIN: together. And that's what it needed: to

HABIB HUSSAIN: make everyone realise that being part of a

HABIB HUSSAIN: trust really can have so many benefits in

HABIB HUSSAIN: terms of making sure that you can just pick

HABIB HUSSAIN: up a phone; and now with modern technology,

HABIB HUSSAIN: like Google classrooms and Google chats and

HABIB HUSSAIN: things like that, just in an instance, if

HABIB HUSSAIN: something happens and you're unsure, you

HABIB HUSSAIN: can just put it in there and you can get

HABIB HUSSAIN: five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 different

HABIB HUSSAIN: responses about what can happen and how you

HABIB HUSSAIN: can deal with things. So it's been

HABIB HUSSAIN: unbelievably positively welcomed by all the

HABIB HUSSAIN: DSLs. It has been created with one thing in

HABIB HUSSAIN: mind and that is support, and it's not been

HABIB HUSSAIN: there to do checks and to make people feel

HABIB HUSSAIN: like it's another level of checking on

HABIB HUSSAIN: schools. It is there as a support and

HABIB HUSSAIN: it is as and when you need, but we've also

HABIB HUSSAIN: got a model where I go and see every school

HABIB HUSSAIN: at least once a term and all the other

HABIB HUSSAIN: regional DSLs do the same thing as well.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And if there are any areas of improvement,

HABIB HUSSAIN: then everyone is grateful to have a

HABIB HUSSAIN: friendly face come along and work with

HABIB HUSSAIN: them. So you don't just tell them this needs

HABIB HUSSAIN: doing, you can actually work with him to

HABIB HUSSAIN: get the improvements and move from that

HABIB HUSSAIN: compliance to excellence.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And everyone, all the schools that the

HABIB HUSSAIN: regional DSLs have worked with, you can

HABIB HUSSAIN: look at the track record in terms of all

HABIB HUSSAIN: the visits and all the inspections

HABIB HUSSAIN: and everything have been unbelievably

HABIB HUSSAIN: positive, you know, in terms of outcomes.

HABIB HUSSAIN: So it shows that it's working in terms of

HABIB HUSSAIN: the feedback, but also when we have

HABIB HUSSAIN: external audits and visits, the outcomes

HABIB HUSSAIN: are clear for everyone to see as well.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Great, so real early evidence that it's

KAREN SQUILLINO: making a difference for children and

KAREN SQUILLINO: young people.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So hearing from you there about the

KAREN SQUILLINO: impact of having that collective there,

KAREN SQUILLINO: that being mobilised by the centre and

KAREN SQUILLINO: supported by the centre.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Did you have any challenges in terms of

KAREN SQUILLINO: recruiting to the regional DSL post?

KAREN SQUILLINO: Because they're quite meaty jobs, aren't

KAREN SQUILLINO: they? They're quite big jobs.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Just talk to us about what it looked like

KAREN SQUILLINO: bringing the regional DSLs in.

JILL FULLER: Clearly, the regional DSL has got to have

JILL FULLER: credibility and experience.

JILL FULLER: I mean, that's the most important thing,

JILL FULLER: because for all that Habib has said, they

JILL FULLER: have got to be out there and actually

JILL FULLER: bringing in that improvement and impact with

JILL FULLER: the DSLs that they're working with.

JILL FULLER: So, we advertised the secondment, and

JILL FULLER: we did...

JILL FULLER: I think we needed to contact DSLs to outline

JILL FULLER: the role, because when you just put out,

JILL FULLER: "it's a regional DSL, here's a spec, here's a

JILL FULLER: bit of an advert or some wording".

JILL FULLER: I think a lot of DSLs wanted to know what

JILL FULLER: that meant and also what it would mean for

JILL FULLER: them being out of their school for a day a

JILL FULLER: week, because, as we've said, we have 34,000

JILL FULLER: children and young people in our schools.

JILL FULLER: Schools are a universal service, though

JILL FULLER: children aren't in school all the time, and

JILL FULLER: obviously that safeguarding role in a school

JILL FULLER: is absolutely crucial.

JILL FULLER: I think it was that discussion around what

JILL FULLER: might it look like if a DSL was out for

JILL FULLER: a day a week, and would the school, the

JILL FULLER: safeguarding in the school, not suffer any

JILL FULLER: detriment? But no, we did successfully

JILL FULLER: recruit in every region and we also

JILL FULLER: have primary and secondary-phased

JILL FULLER: regional DSLs. So the team is a mix of

JILL FULLER: primary and secondary.

JILL FULLER: That's been really, really important because

JILL FULLER: if we have a particular critical incident,

JILL FULLER: something that is really very serious in a

JILL FULLER: school that has happened, because it's in a

JILL FULLER: region, it doesn't mean that we won't draw on

JILL FULLER: another regional DSL who has really specific

JILL FULLER: topic knowledge.

JILL FULLER: And that's where we've been able to build

JILL FULLER: this regional model, and through the network,

JILL FULLER: the safeguarding network, we can also now

JILL FULLER: signpost to DSLs in schools who have

JILL FULLER: particular experience or expertise.

JILL FULLER: I think it's that collective knowledge and

JILL FULLER: expertise and sharing of that, rather than

JILL FULLER: saying "there is one person who will know

JILL FULLER: everything, always", because safeguarding is

JILL FULLER: too complex for any one person to be

JILL FULLER: able to tackle every single thing that will

JILL FULLER: happen in a school around safeguarding.

KAREN SQUILLINO: That's really interesting.

KAREN SQUILLINO: As you said, safeguarding is complex and

KAREN SQUILLINO: schools are dealing with an array of

KAREN SQUILLINO: complex issues that they weren't dealing

KAREN SQUILLINO: with, say even five, 10 years ago.

KAREN SQUILLINO: It's much more multi-layered and

KAREN SQUILLINO: challenging out there, so [it's useful]

KAREN SQUILLINO: to have a system whereby you've

KAREN SQUILLINO: got expertise across the piece that you

KAREN SQUILLINO: can call upon. But is there also a

KAREN SQUILLINO: position whereby the DSLs will be leaning

KAREN SQUILLINO: in to new levels of complexity with

KAREN SQUILLINO: specific safeguarding scenarios, that

KAREN SQUILLINO: they will be taking the learning from and

KAREN SQUILLINO: sharing along the way?

KAREN SQUILLINO: How have you built that in; that ongoing

KAREN SQUILLINO: learning?

JILL FULLER: So we built it in through two ways.

JILL FULLER: First of all, we have a safeguarding network

JILL FULLER: and we meet twice termly.

JILL FULLER: We will utilise case studies, which we will

JILL FULLER: share with the DSL network.

JILL FULLER: We also take learning from our critical

JILL FULLER: incidents, which I've said are some of the

JILL FULLER: most serious things that can impact on

JILL FULLER: safeguarding in a school, and we we'll share

JILL FULLER: those back through the DSL network.

JILL FULLER: But one of the other areas, which I think is

JILL FULLER: quite new and innovative, is we have

JILL FULLER: developed a model of supervision which

JILL FULLER: is dealt with on a group basis.

JILL FULLER: So it's group supervision in each of the

JILL FULLER: regions and that again means that immediately

JILL FULLER: themes are being taken through learning that

JILL FULLER: we can feed into training.

JILL FULLER: We pick up topics which we can very quickly

JILL FULLER: put into the next safeguarding network

JILL FULLER: meeting. So I think that's one of the areas —

JILL FULLER: and I know we're going to go on and probably talk

JILL FULLER: about supervision but I don't know, Habib, if

JILL FULLER: there was anything you wanted to add there.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Yeah, I mean, I think on a day-to-day

HABIB HUSSAIN: basis, just having a group chat on Google

HABIB HUSSAIN: where if something comes up and someone

HABIB HUSSAIN: isn't quite sure how to deal with it, if

HABIB HUSSAIN: you put it into the group chat, there will

HABIB HUSSAIN: ultimately be someone who has come across

HABIB HUSSAIN: something and they will have some guidance

HABIB HUSSAIN: or they will be able to put you in touch

HABIB HUSSAIN: with some agency or with some piece of

HABIB HUSSAIN: evidence that will help you to navigate

HABIB HUSSAIN: that very complex path to get to the

HABIB HUSSAIN: outcome that you want to get to a whole lot

HABIB HUSSAIN: quicker, and with a whole a lot more

HABIB HUSSAIN: confidence, than you would have if you were

HABIB HUSSAIN: left on your own. But also, with myself and

HABIB HUSSAIN: all the other regional DSLs, having their

HABIB HUSSAIN: phone number. So in that real moment of

HABIB HUSSAIN: need you can just pick up the phone and

HABIB HUSSAIN: just say "Habib, I need this".

HABIB HUSSAIN: And if I can't answer it then I can put it

HABIB HUSSAIN: out to the other regional DSLs and suddenly

HABIB HUSSAIN: you've got DSLs up and down the country —

HABIB HUSSAIN: I can virtually guarantee that someone

HABIB HUSSAIN: across that network of 56, or however many

HABIB HUSSAIN: other DSLs that we've got up and done the

HABIB HUSSAIN: country, someone will be able to say I can

HABIB HUSSAIN: help you right now and you will have

HABIB HUSSAIN: someone who's got very good expertise and

HABIB HUSSAIN: will have dealt with something very similar.

HABIB HUSSAIN: It might not be exactly like that, but will

HABIB HUSSAIN: be able to talk you through step-by-step

HABIB HUSSAIN: and make that person feel reassured.

HABIB HUSSAIN: They won't do it for them.

HABIB HUSSAIN: It's about making sure that they experience

HABIB HUSSAIN: it, but you will have someone who is there

HABIB HUSSAIN: to guide you and help you and support you

HABIB HUSSAIN: through that whole process.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And then ultimately, it is through what

HABIB HUSSAIN: Jill just talked about, you know, during our

HABIB HUSSAIN: supervision — the feedback that we have got

HABIB HUSSAIN: on the back of those first supervision

HABIB HUSSAIN: sessions has been that people are so

HABIB HUSSAIN: grateful and just see how powerful that is

HABIB HUSSAIN: to share and understand what goes on.

HABIB HUSSAIN: You start to link the common themes,

HABIB HUSSAIN: especially because we're in a region; we

HABIB HUSSAIN: can start to contextualise what are those

HABIB HUSSAIN: themes and what can we do as a region but

HABIB HUSSAIN: then maybe even as a trust to start putting

HABIB HUSSAIN: in that network of support around key

HABIB HUSSAIN: themes and key ideas and key problems and

HABIB HUSSAIN: issues, and make sure that we tackle them

HABIB HUSSAIN: as a whole rather than individuals.

KAREN SQUILLINO: Great, so that collective resource there;

KAREN SQUILLINO: so not reinventing wheels every time

KAREN SQUILLINO: there's a different issue in the school.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So what I'm hearing there is the regional

KAREN SQUILLINO: DSL is connecting that and being a

KAREN SQUILLINO: conduit to information sharing across the

KAREN SQUILLINO: piece. So Jill, could you talk to us a

KAREN SQUILLINO: little bit more about the supervision

KAREN SQUILLINO: model that you've implemented?

JILL FULLER: As you know, most people dealing with

JILL FULLER: safeguarding have some form of supervision.

JILL FULLER: When we looked at this as a trust, as a

JILL FULLER: network of Lift schools, we saw lots

JILL FULLER: of different models that were probably pulled

JILL FULLER: together either as online or had been

JILL FULLER: based on social work or children's social

JILL FULLER: care, and there was nothing bespoke to

JILL FULLER: education, which actually looked at the role

JILL FULLER: of a designated safeguarding lead in

JILL FULLER: education.

JILL FULLER: So, just over a year ago, we trained all

JILL FULLER: our regional DSLs and DSLs in our own

JILL FULLER: bespoke supervision model, specifically

JILL FULLER: for education and schools.

JILL FULLER: And from that, we now have what Habib

JILL FULLER: has referred to as group supervision.

JILL FULLER: We have a process and programme.

JILL FULLER: The benefit of that is every single DSL

JILL FULLER: is able to access supervision.

JILL FULLER: We have a way of recording it and the actions

JILL FULLER: from it. I think the most important thing is

JILL FULLER: it's dedicated time for a designated

JILL FULLER: safeguarding lead in a school to reflect.

JILL FULLER: So not always to deal with something

JILL FULLER: immediately as they very often have to

JILL FULLER: and react. They are able to bring their cases

JILL FULLER: — and these are their complex cases — they

JILL FULLER: are to reflect, look at the learning

JILL FULLER: they get from it, share that learning.

JILL FULLER: and then collectively agree actions or review

JILL FULLER: the actions that they've already taken.

JILL FULLER: And the DSL's wellbeing is also

JILL FULLER: supported through this because they are able

JILL FULLER: to just reflect, have some space

JILL FULLER: and dedicated time. And I'm gonna pass to

JILL FULLER: you, Habib, because you've actually run a

JILL FULLER: group supervision session.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Yeah, I mean, what I'd say on the group

HABIB HUSSAIN: supervision is that, like I said, I've been

HABIB HUSSAIN: a DSL at school for many years and it can

HABIB HUSSAIN: be a lonely place. It can be a very, very

HABIB HUSSAIN: stressful place when ultimately you're

HABIB HUSSAIN: making decisions that you know could have

HABIB HUSSAIN: significant impact on the lives of these

HABIB HUSSAIN: young people. I honestly believe that it

HABIB HUSSAIN: was very, very important to get everyone

HABIB HUSSAIN: into a room face-to-face.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And initially it was a bit of, well, that's

HABIB HUSSAIN: a long way to travel. But after three hours

HABIB HUSSAIN: of our session, at the end of it, every

HABIB HUSSAIN: single person said they couldn't wait for

HABIB HUSSAIN: the next session. It really showed the

HABIB HUSSAIN: power of it, and it was very emotional.

HABIB HUSSAIN: I don't think people have ever been in a

HABIB HUSSAIN: room and actually been asked to talk

HABIB HUSSAIN: through their most difficult and most

HABIB HUSSAIN: challenging cases that they've ever

HABIB HUSSAIN: encountered and given the opportunity to

HABIB HUSSAIN: reflect on their practice.

HABIB HUSSAIN: I think it was just refreshing for our DSLs

HABIB HUSSAIN: to know that they have people who care and

HABIB HUSSAIN: who understand and who can offer help and

HABIB HUSSAIN: advice. We look at how things can be done

HABIB HUSSAIN: differently, sometimes better.

HABIB HUSSAIN: There are common themes and common traits

HABIB HUSSAIN: around what is going on in our region and

HABIB HUSSAIN: if we didn't have this model, that may

HABIB HUSSAIN: never have been picked up on.

HABIB HUSSAIN: We've already started to work on this with

HABIB HUSSAIN: certain schools. So we've got three special

HABIB HUSSAIN: schools who are in the same region but I

HABIB HUSSAIN: didn't even know who the DSLs were; and

HABIB HUSSAIN: after that supervision session all three of

HABIB HUSSAIN: them have been in regular contact and are

HABIB HUSSAIN: now sharing practice and are sharing

HABIB HUSSAIN: experiences and asking advice of one

HABIB HUSSAIN: another and they've been doing that

HABIB HUSSAIN: regularly over the last six or seven weeks.

HABIB HUSSAIN: So, on the back of that one session, there

HABIB HUSSAIN: was so much positivity and people really

HABIB HUSSAIN: felt almost rejuvenated; making

HABIB HUSSAIN: them feel like there's people at trust

HABIB HUSSAIN: level that do care and that we do want the

HABIB HUSSAIN: best for them and we are looking out for

HABIB HUSSAIN: their wellbeing as well.

KAREN SQUILLINO: It's brilliant to hear from you both

KAREN SQUILLINO: about the impact that you're seeing

KAREN SQUILLINO: already and the willingness of staff

KAREN SQUILLINO: to engage within that and they can see

KAREN SQUILLINO: the benefit. I'd like to ask you both

KAREN SQUILLINO: about challenges to that, because it has

KAREN SQUILLINO: been quite a shift in models.

KAREN SQUILLINO: When you're operating within a single

KAREN SQUILLINO: school but knowing that, as part of a

KAREN SQUILLINO: multi-academy trust, there is a a

KAREN SQUILLINO: centralised structure, but what you've

KAREN SQUILLINO: done here is really regionalise that

KAREN SQUILLINO: support. So you talked earlier about

KAREN SQUILLINO: recruiting to those designated

KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding leads, the regional posts,

KAREN SQUILLINO: but how did you bring the school on

KAREN SQUILLINO: board with, okay we're going to be

KAREN SQUILLINO: working more in a regional way around

KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding now, to strengthen it.

KAREN SQUILLINO: How was it sort of sold into the school?

KAREN SQUILLINO: How was it presented? And I'm thinking

KAREN SQUILLINO: particularly about— there will be other

KAREN SQUILLINO: people from other academy trusts thinking

KAREN SQUILLINO: now, "okay we might want to think about

KAREN SQUILLINO: this". So I just want to dig into some of

KAREN SQUILLINO: the challenges and how it was

KAREN SQUILLINO: communicated and how you brought people

KAREN SQUILLINO: along with you.

HABIB HUSSAIN: In terms of getting on board and looking at

HABIB HUSSAIN: this in terms of a region, I mean, it

HABIB HUSSAIN: wasn't really a hard sell.

HABIB HUSSAIN: It was, we are buying into something or

HABIB HUSSAIN: buying into a model where we are getting

HABIB HUSSAIN: all of this network and all of this

HABIB HUSSAIN: support and all this experience, and it's

HABIB HUSSAIN: not costing us anything. It's there for us.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And it's just about creating the links with

HABIB HUSSAIN: us and other schools.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And the most amazing thing on the back of

HABIB HUSSAIN: that has been that although this started

HABIB HUSSAIN: off as a regional DSL role,

HABIB HUSSAIN: the amount of people that I put in contact

HABIB HUSSAIN: at schools to create different networks

HABIB HUSSAIN: now, to make sure that this contact between

HABIB HUSSAIN: academies is not just for safeguarding

HABIB HUSSAIN: reasons, it goes beyond that now.

HABIB HUSSAIN: You know, when we start looking at

HABIB HUSSAIN: trauma-informed practices in terms of

HABIB HUSSAIN: behaviour. Although I go in there with the

HABIB HUSSAIN: hat of a regional DSL, part of the visit

HABIB HUSSAIN: is that I will offer to look at, you know,

HABIB HUSSAIN: attendance; how people are registered and

HABIB HUSSAIN: then deregistered and make sure that

HABIB HUSSAIN: processes and systems are in place for

HABIB HUSSAIN: that. I will offer to look at people's

HABIB HUSSAIN: behaviour policies to make sure they are

HABIB HUSSAIN: inclusive and make sure that we're looking

HABIB HUSSAIN: at how suspensions are given and how

HABIB HUSSAIN: we can reduce those.

HABIB HUSSAIN: So it has been one step, but it has

HABIB HUSSAIN: led to so many different conversations

HABIB HUSSAIN: happening with other schools.

HABIB HUSSAIN: In terms of going into other schools, the

HABIB HUSSAIN: big challenge was I'm a DSL.

HABIB HUSSAIN: I'm a deputy head at a school. I was going

HABIB HUSSAIN: into some schools where the DSLs are head

HABIB HUSSAIN: teachers. So I went in there and I had to

HABIB HUSSAIN: remind myself that this is the head teacher

HABIB HUSSAIN: and this is a new role.

HABIB HUSSAIN: And I had go in there and I had to convince

HABIB HUSSAIN: people that I'm not there to spy on people.

HABIB HUSSAIN: I'm not there to check up on people in that

HABIB HUSSAIN: sense; that this a supportive measure and

HABIB HUSSAIN: that we're trying to create a network to

HABIB HUSSAIN: help not only support you, but you might be

HABIB HUSSAIN: able to support me and other people as

HABIB HUSSAIN: well.

JILL FULLER: That's what safeguarding is, it's about

JILL FULLER: learning. But I think the other thing that

JILL FULLER: gave real credibility was that a

JILL FULLER: regional DSL is a designated safeguarding

JILL FULLER: lead, DSL, in their own right.

JILL FULLER: They are in a school every day dealing

JILL FULLER: with those issues. So it's not somebody, say,

JILL FULLER: from a central team that might be perceived

JILL FULLER: as "you sit in an office somewhere and you

JILL FULLER: don't see these children and young people

JILL FULLER: every day and their families", because I

JILL FULLER: think that's the other important thing.

JILL FULLER: Designated safeguarding leads in schools and

JILL FULLER: the regional DSLs in schools see the young

JILL FULLER: children and their families regularly.

JILL FULLER: They know the families, they know the

JILL FULLER: communities. I think the regional DLS bring

JILL FULLER: that credibility when they go out and do

JILL FULLER: these visits because they live and breathe

JILL FULLER: those jobs themselves in their schools, every

JILL FULLER: single day.

KAREN SQUILLINO: It certainly, from listening to you both

KAREN SQUILLINO: speak, it certainly feels like something

KAREN SQUILLINO: that is being responded to really

KAREN SQUILLINO: positively and the opportunity there to

KAREN SQUILLINO: share information amongst professionals

KAREN SQUILLINO: to assist in defensible decision-making;

KAREN SQUILLINO: that will serve

KAREN SQUILLINO: to strengthen the safeguarding across the

KAREN SQUILLINO: ascademy trust.

KAREN SQUILLINO: And the reason we wanted to do this

KAREN SQUILLINO: podcast — and Jill, you and I spoke about

KAREN SQUILLINO: it, didn't we — was because this is about

KAREN SQUILLINO: sharing with other multi-academy trusts

KAREN SQUILLINO: about what we're doing at Lift.

KAREN SQUILLINO: And it's really great to hear about how

KAREN SQUILLINO: this has landed and the impact that it's

KAREN SQUILLINO: having. But what would you share from

KAREN SQUILLINO: your own learning about putting this

KAREN SQUILLINO: process in place with other multi-academy

KAREN SQUILLINO: trusts that will be listening and thinking,

KAREN SQUILLINO: "right, we may want to do something

KAREN SQUILLINO: similar". What are the watch-outs with

KAREN SQUILLINO: this?

JILL FULLER: I think the most important thing is we didn't

JILL FULLER: want to be perceived as another tick box

JILL FULLER: check-in. We didn't this team to

JILL FULLER: be: we're coming in to do more checks.

JILL FULLER: So when we do those checks, I think it's very

JILL FULLER: important how you communicate that out and

JILL FULLER: the framework that a regional DSL has

JILL FULLER: when they go into a school.

JILL FULLER: The takeaways for me is the credibility of

JILL FULLER: those that take a regional role on.

JILL FULLER: They've got to be credible, I think,

JILL FULLER: and have an expertise.

JILL FULLER: It's got to be communicated really

JILL FULLER: clearly and effectively about what that role

JILL FULLER: is and that it's a supportive role.

JILL FULLER: And it's one where you build trust — because

JILL FULLER: I think that's really important — and it's

JILL FULLER: not around, we're coming in to catch you out.

JILL FULLER: It's supportive. It's about developing,

JILL FULLER: sharing and learning around safeguarding.

JILL FULLER: The other thing we do have to recognise is

JILL FULLER: there will be occasions where there will be

JILL FULLER: a difference of opinion about how you might

JILL FULLER: deal with a particular safeguarding issue or

JILL FULLER: where somebody has a way of working that they

JILL FULLER: are particularly keen on maintaining.

JILL FULLER: We sometimes have to say, we get all of that,

JILL FULLER: but we are a trust of 57

JILL FULLER: schools and we do need to have certain

JILL FULLER: consistency around what we're doing.

JILL FULLER: Otherwise we can't measure, we can't see the

JILL FULLER: impact, we can't get the insights we need.

JILL FULLER: And sometimes that has been one of the

JILL FULLER: challenges, around saying "we're just moving

JILL FULLER: to that, there is a reason we're doing this

JILL FULLER: and you have got a brilliant way of recording

JILL FULLER: this and it's really good, but it doesn't

JILL FULLER: sit with all the other ways that we're

JILL FULLER: recording across our other schools".

JILL FULLER: And it's little things like that, but I think

JILL FULLER: it's the manner in which the message is

JILL FULLER: delivered, which is very important.

JILL FULLER: That would be the takeaway for me.

JILL FULLER: I don't know if you've got anything to add

JILL FULLER: Habib.

HABIB HUSSAIN: No, I completely agree. It's when you go into

HABIB HUSSAIN: a school and you share your practices, or

HABIB HUSSAIN: practices that you've found, or that have

HABIB HUSSAIN: been agreed. That if you follow this, you

HABIB HUSSAIN: will be compliant, and if you go above and

HABIB HUSSAIN: beyond this, you will be making your way

HABIB HUSSAIN: towards excellence. Sometimes people, who

HABIB HUSSAIN: have worked incredibly hard on some

HABIB HUSSAIN: systems, might have created something that

HABIB HUSSAIN: they feel is fit for purpose and they find

HABIB HUSSAIN: it difficult to let go. You have to be very

HABIB HUSSAIN: sensitive to that and you have to give

HABIB HUSSAIN: people transition time.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Sometimes you can't just go in and say,

HABIB HUSSAIN: "you have to do it now, here, right now".

HABIB HUSSAIN: You can't have those hard and fast

HABIB HUSSAIN: deadlines that this is going to happen this

HABIB HUSSAIN: way when I say so.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Unless it has to be done.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Obviously, if there's a real concern, then

HABIB HUSSAIN: you have make someone understand.

HABIB HUSSAIN: But there has to that transition period and

HABIB HUSSAIN: you have be sensitive to the fact that

HABIB HUSSAIN: people work incredibly hard. Anyone who's

HABIB HUSSAIN: dealing with safeguarding works incredibly

HABIB HUSSAIN: hard and they do things with the right

HABIB HUSSAIN: intentions. And sometimes when you show

HABIB HUSSAIN: people a different way of doing something,

HABIB HUSSAIN: sometimes it lands well and people can see

HABIB HUSSAIN: that this is going to work better and they

HABIB HUSSAIN: welcome it with open arms; but sometimes

HABIB HUSSAIN: people feel that this is just a different

HABIB HUSSAIN: way of doing it and they don't understand

HABIB HUSSAIN: that because we are part of a trust, and we

HABIB HUSSAIN: need that consistency to be able to measure

HABIB HUSSAIN: impact across the academy, you have to make

HABIB HUSSAIN: them understand the bigger picture, not

HABIB HUSSAIN: just on a school level but on a trust

HABIB HUSSAIN: level. That was something that in some

HABIB HUSSAIN: areas took a little bit more work.

HABIB HUSSAIN: You do need to spend a bit more time and

HABIB HUSSAIN: make people understand why you're doing

HABIB HUSSAIN: what you're doing. It's not just to be difficult.

HABIB HUSSAIN: It's not just a tick box exercise.

HABIB HUSSAIN: It is there to make sure that all of those

HABIB HUSSAIN: checks and balances are in place, and this

HABIB HUSSAIN: is ultimately going to safeguard you when

HABIB HUSSAIN: it comes to making those decisions, when it

HABIB HUSSAIN: come to those really complex cases, to make

HABIB HUSSAIN: that you've got all of those different

HABIB HUSSAIN: layers of checks, to make sure that you

HABIB HUSSAIN: ultimately get to the right outcome; but

HABIB HUSSAIN: also to make sure that there's logic and

HABIB HUSSAIN: you follow the correct sequence to get to

HABIB HUSSAIN: that. We have got certain pro formas that

HABIB HUSSAIN: we now ask all of our schools to use.

HABIB HUSSAIN: We have a dashboard and key areas such as

HABIB HUSSAIN: CPOMS — we use a platform called CPOMS to

HABIB HUSSAIN: record and monitor trends and to record any

HABIB HUSSAIN: safeguarding issues. We also have a

HABIB HUSSAIN: dashboard where we record all of our

HABIB HUSSAIN: alternative provision students, to make

HABIB HUSSAIN: sure that we track and monitor and just

HABIB HUSSAIN: because they're out of sight, they're not out of mind.

HABIB HUSSAIN: So there's crucial areas that we do insist

HABIB HUSSAIN: that all of out schools follow a certain

HABIB HUSSAIN: process and make sure that we all are doing

HABIB HUSSAIN: the same things to ensure consistency but

HABIB HUSSAIN: also to make sure that we are

HABIB HUSSAIN: compliant in all those areas and that there

HABIB HUSSAIN: isn't

HABIB HUSSAIN: any question if we do have any visits or any inspections.

JILL FULLER: One of the other things around having so

JILL FULLER: many schools which is really good, is each of

JILL FULLER: them has a slightly different structure.

JILL FULLER: So there's no one model, because the

JILL FULLER: structure will be built up on the resources

JILL FULLER: in the school, the number of pupils, all

JILL FULLER: kinds of things.

JILL FULLER: One of things that we bring through this

JILL FULLER: framework is what we call an inclusion team,

JILL FULLER: because safeguarding doesn't sit on its own,

JILL FULLER: and Habib referred to this, as a silo.

JILL FULLER: It does cross over with attendance.

JILL FULLER: It does cross over with the PSHE

JILL FULLER: curriculum. It does cross over with

JILL FULLER: behaviour. It does crossover with SEND.

JILL FULLER: So it's really, really important that

JILL FULLER: each of those moving components

JILL FULLER: understand their role in safeguarding.

JILL FULLER: We've done a lot of work around those

JILL FULLER: operating models and structures in schools.

JILL FULLER: We haven't changed the structure necessarily.

JILL FULLER: It's more about bringing that as an inclusive

JILL FULLER: team. And one other point I think I'd bring

JILL FULLER: in as well: our size means that we work with

JILL FULLER: a lot of different local authorities — I

JILL FULLER: think we've got 25 or 26.

JILL FULLER: Now, each of those is different and

JILL FULLER: individual, and each of our schools has to

JILL FULLER: develop that relationship with that local

JILL FULLER: authority and their multi-agency partners.

JILL FULLER: So I think it's also being mindful when you

JILL FULLER: go— even in Habib's region, for instance,

JILL FULLER: there's probably three different local

JILL FULLER: authority that the schools within that work

JILL FULLER: with, and we have to recognise that.

JILL FULLER: I wouldn't call it a challenge, but it has to

JILL FULLER: be recognised and we have to work within the

JILL FULLER: constraints of that local authority and their

JILL FULLER: escalation, which is something when you have

JILL FULLER: a very, very complex case where you might be

JILL FULLER: escalating up through a range of multi-agency

JILL FULLER: partners and we mean by that children's

JILL FULLER: social care, police.

JILL FULLER: So that was part of what we had to

JILL FULLER: factor in when we were looking at developing

JILL FULLER: this regional model.

KAREN SQUILLINO: That's great. It's really fascinating because,

KAREN SQUILLINO: thinking about the importance of that

KAREN SQUILLINO: local context for the schools, you've

KAREN SQUILLINO: created that consistency, which is then

KAREN SQUILLINO: enabling that culture to develop.

KAREN SQUILLINO: That's been predicated on really good

KAREN SQUILLINO: communication.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So you're not just communicating within

KAREN SQUILLINO: the schools now, there's communication

KAREN SQUILLINO: right across the network, which has added

KAREN SQUILLINO: some really much needed capacity for

KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding, which ultimately will

KAREN SQUILLINO: impact the lives of children and young

KAREN SQUILLINO: people really positively.

KAREN SQUILLINO: So Habib, Jill, thank you so much for

KAREN SQUILLINO: your time this afternoon.

KAREN SQUILLINO: It's been really fascinating to hear

KAREN SQUILLINO: about the approach that's been taken at

KAREN SQUILLINO: Lift in terms of safeguarding and hearing

KAREN SQUILLINO: about the supervision model has been

KAREN SQUILLINO: really fascinating. And I hope it's given

KAREN SQUILLINO: other multi-academy trusts some thoughts

KAREN SQUILLINO: and ideas about taking that model forward

KAREN SQUILLINO: for themselves. So thank you once again

KAREN SQUILLINO: for joining us and goodbye.

JILL FULLER: Thank you.

HABIB HUSSAIN: Thank you.

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OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and

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