INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Hello and welcome everybody to this NSPCC
KAREN SQUILLINO: Learning Podcast.
KAREN SQUILLINO: I'm Karen Squillino and I am a trustee
KAREN SQUILLINO: at Lift multi-academy trust.
KAREN SQUILLINO: It's a role that I've held for five years
KAREN SQUILLINO: now. I'm also the chair of
KAREN SQUILLINO: the wellbeing and safeguarding committee.
KAREN SQUILLINO: In addition to my role at Lift as
KAREN SQUILLINO: trustee, I'm also the Local Services
KAREN SQUILLINO: Director here at the NSPCC with a
KAREN SQUILLINO: responsibility for our local campaigning
KAREN SQUILLINO: work, our direct delivery to children and
KAREN SQUILLINO: young people in communities, but also our
KAREN SQUILLINO: work in schools. So there's some real
KAREN SQUILLINO: connection between my trustee role and
KAREN SQUILLINO: the day role. And I have with me today
KAREN SQUILLINO: colleagues from Lift, Habib and Jill.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So I'd like to ask you to introduce
KAREN SQUILLINO: yourselves now, if you could.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Jill?
JILL FULLER: Hello, my name is Jill Fuller.
JILL FULLER: I'm the Head of Safeguarding for Lift Schools
JILL FULLER: and I've been in this role for almost two
JILL FULLER: years now, but I've been with Lift Schools
JILL FULLER: for 10 years in total.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Hi there, I'm Habib Hussain.
HABIB HUSSAIN: I'm a deputy headteacher at a school in
HABIB HUSSAIN: North London called Aylward Academy, but I
HABIB HUSSAIN: also do a regional [safeguarding] role for
HABIB HUSSAIN: Lift Schools, and I oversee London and the
HABIB HUSSAIN: South.
KAREN SQUILLINO: I'm really excited to be talking to
KAREN SQUILLINO: Habib and Jill today because there's some
KAREN SQUILLINO: really great work going on at Lift and we
KAREN SQUILLINO: thought this would be a wonderful
KAREN SQUILLINO: opportunity to share what we're doing at
KAREN SQUILLINO: Lift around safeguarding and wellbeing.
KAREN SQUILLINO: I think the listeners are going to be
KAREN SQUILLINO: really interested to know more about the
KAREN SQUILLINO: roles and responsibilities of a
KAREN SQUILLINO: multi-academy trust when it comes to
KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding and pupils in their schools.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Just by way of context, at Lift we've got
KAREN SQUILLINO: 57 schools and around 34,000
KAREN SQUILLINO: children. So Jill, could you just give us
KAREN SQUILLINO: an explanation around that?
JILL FULLER: Yes, I can. And I think what's important is
JILL FULLER: that multi-academy trust schools have the
JILL FULLER: same statutory responsibilities for
JILL FULLER: safeguarding as any other school.
JILL FULLER: So we are governed by statutory documents,
JILL FULLER: Keeping Children Safe in Education (KCSIE),
JILL FULLER: which is updated annually, and also Working
JILL FULLER: Together to Safeguard Children.
JILL FULLER: And we work with all multi-agency partners as
JILL FULLER: any school would.
JILL FULLER: Sometimes there's a little bit of confusion
JILL FULLER: about multi-academy trusts and do they have
JILL FULLER: the same safeguarding requirements, and we
JILL FULLER: absolutely do.
JILL FULLER: But the way we've structured ourselves at
JILL FULLER: Lift Schools is we have a very clear
JILL FULLER: safeguarding assurance framework, which is
JILL FULLER: consistent for all our schools.
JILL FULLER: That is supported by a safeguarding
JILL FULLER: dashboard, safeguarding operating procedures
JILL FULLER: and in every single one of our
JILL FULLER: schools, we have what's called a designated
JILL FULLER: safeguarding lead.
JILL FULLER: You may know of that term as a
JILL FULLER: DSL. So we have 57 designated
JILL FULLER: safeguarding leads with teams in schools
JILL FULLER: working on safeguarding and complex
JILL FULLER: safeguarding issues every day.
JILL FULLER: And then to supplement the work in
JILL FULLER: the schools and to support that, we have what
JILL FULLER: are called regional designated safeguarding
JILL FULLER: leads and you might hear me refer to those as
JILL FULLER: our RDSLs.
JILL FULLER: We have five of those because Lift schools is
JILL FULLER: split into five regions and
JILL FULLER: a DSL in one of the schools
JILL FULLER: in the region will support other
JILL FULLER: schools in that region and also support the
JILL FULLER: central inclusion team in driving a
JILL FULLER: culture of excellence in our schools.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So just thinking about multi-academy
KAREN SQUILLINO: trusts generally then, before we get into
KAREN SQUILLINO: what we're doing at Lift, how does
KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding traditionally work within a
KAREN SQUILLINO: large multi-academy trust?
KAREN SQUILLINO: Because we've got schools up in the north
KAREN SQUILLINO: of England and right down to the south.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So what, in your view, would
KAREN SQUILLINO: it traditionally look like?
JILL FULLER: I think traditionally it probably has a
JILL FULLER: central team or a central lead and then we'll
JILL FULLER: have a DSL in each school who will report
JILL FULLER: into the principal, because ultimately a
JILL FULLER: principal is responsible for safeguarding in
JILL FULLER: their school. I don't think that there are
JILL FULLER: many other multi-academy trusts with the
JILL FULLER: spread geographically that we have and
JILL FULLER: therefore will have set up the regional model
JILL FULLER: that we had to support our schools.
JILL FULLER: Our network is such that we've got 57 DSLs.
JILL FULLER: They sit in our five regions, as you said,
JILL FULLER: Karen, from the north to the midlands, to the
JILL FULLER: south and everything in between.
JILL FULLER: And those regional DSL's work and network
JILL FULLER: with the DSL. So they can look very much at
JILL FULLER: the complexity of the cases, the regional
JILL FULLER: themes within the area that they are
JILL FULLER: set, and that will take account of all the
JILL FULLER: local context that is going on in the
JILL FULLER: communities around our schools.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Habib, I'm going to come to you next as
KAREN SQUILLINO: one of our regional DSLs.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Can you talk to us about the process that
KAREN SQUILLINO: you've been a part of to create this
KAREN SQUILLINO: regional DSL structure?
KAREN SQUILLINO: And then I'd be really interested to
KAREN SQUILLINO: understand more about what it looks like
KAREN SQUILLINO: in practice on the ground.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Yeah, sure.
HABIB HUSSAIN: I've been with Aylward Academy, which has
HABIB HUSSAIN: been part of Academies Enterprise Trust and
HABIB HUSSAIN: now Lift Schools for 19 years, this is my
HABIB HUSSAIN: 20th year, and I've been DSL now for over
HABIB HUSSAIN: 10 years. About three years ago, I was
HABIB HUSSAIN: approached by Jill and the trust, because
HABIB HUSSAIN: we obviously wanted to look at this
HABIB HUSSAIN: regional model, and we talked about why
HABIB HUSSAIN: that would be a great idea.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Before we set up this model, schools were
HABIB HUSSAIN: kind of working in silos.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Even though we're part of such a huge trust,
HABIB HUSSAIN: which you've just referred to, 57 schools
HABIB HUSSAIN: and so many students and we had schools
HABIB HUSSAIN: within a two-mile radius on my school, but
HABIB HUSSAIN: I didn't know who those DSLs were.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And we would only reach out to Jill in
HABIB HUSSAIN: crisis. It shouldn't be that way.
HABIB HUSSAIN: When you are such a big trust, you need to
HABIB HUSSAIN: look at the strengths of that, and one of
HABIB HUSSAIN: the strengths of that is having people like
HABIB HUSSAIN: myself — and I'm not the only one; when you
HABIB HUSSAIN: start to look around, you see just how much
HABIB HUSSAIN: experience is there.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Being a DSL is a very challenging job.
HABIB HUSSAIN: You have to deal with all sorts of very
HABIB HUSSAIN: challenging and very emotionally, kind of, evoking
HABIB HUSSAIN: cases on a day-to-day basis.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And what I've found, since taking this
HABIB HUSSAIN: regional role, is just how grateful
HABIB HUSSAIN: everyone is to finally have someone who's
HABIB HUSSAIN: kind of the glue to bring everyone
HABIB HUSSAIN: together. And that's what it needed: to
HABIB HUSSAIN: make everyone realise that being part of a
HABIB HUSSAIN: trust really can have so many benefits in
HABIB HUSSAIN: terms of making sure that you can just pick
HABIB HUSSAIN: up a phone; and now with modern technology,
HABIB HUSSAIN: like Google classrooms and Google chats and
HABIB HUSSAIN: things like that, just in an instance, if
HABIB HUSSAIN: something happens and you're unsure, you
HABIB HUSSAIN: can just put it in there and you can get
HABIB HUSSAIN: five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 different
HABIB HUSSAIN: responses about what can happen and how you
HABIB HUSSAIN: can deal with things. So it's been
HABIB HUSSAIN: unbelievably positively welcomed by all the
HABIB HUSSAIN: DSLs. It has been created with one thing in
HABIB HUSSAIN: mind and that is support, and it's not been
HABIB HUSSAIN: there to do checks and to make people feel
HABIB HUSSAIN: like it's another level of checking on
HABIB HUSSAIN: schools. It is there as a support and
HABIB HUSSAIN: it is as and when you need, but we've also
HABIB HUSSAIN: got a model where I go and see every school
HABIB HUSSAIN: at least once a term and all the other
HABIB HUSSAIN: regional DSLs do the same thing as well.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And if there are any areas of improvement,
HABIB HUSSAIN: then everyone is grateful to have a
HABIB HUSSAIN: friendly face come along and work with
HABIB HUSSAIN: them. So you don't just tell them this needs
HABIB HUSSAIN: doing, you can actually work with him to
HABIB HUSSAIN: get the improvements and move from that
HABIB HUSSAIN: compliance to excellence.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And everyone, all the schools that the
HABIB HUSSAIN: regional DSLs have worked with, you can
HABIB HUSSAIN: look at the track record in terms of all
HABIB HUSSAIN: the visits and all the inspections
HABIB HUSSAIN: and everything have been unbelievably
HABIB HUSSAIN: positive, you know, in terms of outcomes.
HABIB HUSSAIN: So it shows that it's working in terms of
HABIB HUSSAIN: the feedback, but also when we have
HABIB HUSSAIN: external audits and visits, the outcomes
HABIB HUSSAIN: are clear for everyone to see as well.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Great, so real early evidence that it's
KAREN SQUILLINO: making a difference for children and
KAREN SQUILLINO: young people.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So hearing from you there about the
KAREN SQUILLINO: impact of having that collective there,
KAREN SQUILLINO: that being mobilised by the centre and
KAREN SQUILLINO: supported by the centre.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Did you have any challenges in terms of
KAREN SQUILLINO: recruiting to the regional DSL post?
KAREN SQUILLINO: Because they're quite meaty jobs, aren't
KAREN SQUILLINO: they? They're quite big jobs.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Just talk to us about what it looked like
KAREN SQUILLINO: bringing the regional DSLs in.
JILL FULLER: Clearly, the regional DSL has got to have
JILL FULLER: credibility and experience.
JILL FULLER: I mean, that's the most important thing,
JILL FULLER: because for all that Habib has said, they
JILL FULLER: have got to be out there and actually
JILL FULLER: bringing in that improvement and impact with
JILL FULLER: the DSLs that they're working with.
JILL FULLER: So, we advertised the secondment, and
JILL FULLER: we did...
JILL FULLER: I think we needed to contact DSLs to outline
JILL FULLER: the role, because when you just put out,
JILL FULLER: "it's a regional DSL, here's a spec, here's a
JILL FULLER: bit of an advert or some wording".
JILL FULLER: I think a lot of DSLs wanted to know what
JILL FULLER: that meant and also what it would mean for
JILL FULLER: them being out of their school for a day a
JILL FULLER: week, because, as we've said, we have 34,000
JILL FULLER: children and young people in our schools.
JILL FULLER: Schools are a universal service, though
JILL FULLER: children aren't in school all the time, and
JILL FULLER: obviously that safeguarding role in a school
JILL FULLER: is absolutely crucial.
JILL FULLER: I think it was that discussion around what
JILL FULLER: might it look like if a DSL was out for
JILL FULLER: a day a week, and would the school, the
JILL FULLER: safeguarding in the school, not suffer any
JILL FULLER: detriment? But no, we did successfully
JILL FULLER: recruit in every region and we also
JILL FULLER: have primary and secondary-phased
JILL FULLER: regional DSLs. So the team is a mix of
JILL FULLER: primary and secondary.
JILL FULLER: That's been really, really important because
JILL FULLER: if we have a particular critical incident,
JILL FULLER: something that is really very serious in a
JILL FULLER: school that has happened, because it's in a
JILL FULLER: region, it doesn't mean that we won't draw on
JILL FULLER: another regional DSL who has really specific
JILL FULLER: topic knowledge.
JILL FULLER: And that's where we've been able to build
JILL FULLER: this regional model, and through the network,
JILL FULLER: the safeguarding network, we can also now
JILL FULLER: signpost to DSLs in schools who have
JILL FULLER: particular experience or expertise.
JILL FULLER: I think it's that collective knowledge and
JILL FULLER: expertise and sharing of that, rather than
JILL FULLER: saying "there is one person who will know
JILL FULLER: everything, always", because safeguarding is
JILL FULLER: too complex for any one person to be
JILL FULLER: able to tackle every single thing that will
JILL FULLER: happen in a school around safeguarding.
KAREN SQUILLINO: That's really interesting.
KAREN SQUILLINO: As you said, safeguarding is complex and
KAREN SQUILLINO: schools are dealing with an array of
KAREN SQUILLINO: complex issues that they weren't dealing
KAREN SQUILLINO: with, say even five, 10 years ago.
KAREN SQUILLINO: It's much more multi-layered and
KAREN SQUILLINO: challenging out there, so [it's useful]
KAREN SQUILLINO: to have a system whereby you've
KAREN SQUILLINO: got expertise across the piece that you
KAREN SQUILLINO: can call upon. But is there also a
KAREN SQUILLINO: position whereby the DSLs will be leaning
KAREN SQUILLINO: in to new levels of complexity with
KAREN SQUILLINO: specific safeguarding scenarios, that
KAREN SQUILLINO: they will be taking the learning from and
KAREN SQUILLINO: sharing along the way?
KAREN SQUILLINO: How have you built that in; that ongoing
KAREN SQUILLINO: learning?
JILL FULLER: So we built it in through two ways.
JILL FULLER: First of all, we have a safeguarding network
JILL FULLER: and we meet twice termly.
JILL FULLER: We will utilise case studies, which we will
JILL FULLER: share with the DSL network.
JILL FULLER: We also take learning from our critical
JILL FULLER: incidents, which I've said are some of the
JILL FULLER: most serious things that can impact on
JILL FULLER: safeguarding in a school, and we we'll share
JILL FULLER: those back through the DSL network.
JILL FULLER: But one of the other areas, which I think is
JILL FULLER: quite new and innovative, is we have
JILL FULLER: developed a model of supervision which
JILL FULLER: is dealt with on a group basis.
JILL FULLER: So it's group supervision in each of the
JILL FULLER: regions and that again means that immediately
JILL FULLER: themes are being taken through learning that
JILL FULLER: we can feed into training.
JILL FULLER: We pick up topics which we can very quickly
JILL FULLER: put into the next safeguarding network
JILL FULLER: meeting. So I think that's one of the areas —
JILL FULLER: and I know we're going to go on and probably talk
JILL FULLER: about supervision but I don't know, Habib, if
JILL FULLER: there was anything you wanted to add there.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Yeah, I mean, I think on a day-to-day
HABIB HUSSAIN: basis, just having a group chat on Google
HABIB HUSSAIN: where if something comes up and someone
HABIB HUSSAIN: isn't quite sure how to deal with it, if
HABIB HUSSAIN: you put it into the group chat, there will
HABIB HUSSAIN: ultimately be someone who has come across
HABIB HUSSAIN: something and they will have some guidance
HABIB HUSSAIN: or they will be able to put you in touch
HABIB HUSSAIN: with some agency or with some piece of
HABIB HUSSAIN: evidence that will help you to navigate
HABIB HUSSAIN: that very complex path to get to the
HABIB HUSSAIN: outcome that you want to get to a whole lot
HABIB HUSSAIN: quicker, and with a whole a lot more
HABIB HUSSAIN: confidence, than you would have if you were
HABIB HUSSAIN: left on your own. But also, with myself and
HABIB HUSSAIN: all the other regional DSLs, having their
HABIB HUSSAIN: phone number. So in that real moment of
HABIB HUSSAIN: need you can just pick up the phone and
HABIB HUSSAIN: just say "Habib, I need this".
HABIB HUSSAIN: And if I can't answer it then I can put it
HABIB HUSSAIN: out to the other regional DSLs and suddenly
HABIB HUSSAIN: you've got DSLs up and down the country —
HABIB HUSSAIN: I can virtually guarantee that someone
HABIB HUSSAIN: across that network of 56, or however many
HABIB HUSSAIN: other DSLs that we've got up and done the
HABIB HUSSAIN: country, someone will be able to say I can
HABIB HUSSAIN: help you right now and you will have
HABIB HUSSAIN: someone who's got very good expertise and
HABIB HUSSAIN: will have dealt with something very similar.
HABIB HUSSAIN: It might not be exactly like that, but will
HABIB HUSSAIN: be able to talk you through step-by-step
HABIB HUSSAIN: and make that person feel reassured.
HABIB HUSSAIN: They won't do it for them.
HABIB HUSSAIN: It's about making sure that they experience
HABIB HUSSAIN: it, but you will have someone who is there
HABIB HUSSAIN: to guide you and help you and support you
HABIB HUSSAIN: through that whole process.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And then ultimately, it is through what
HABIB HUSSAIN: Jill just talked about, you know, during our
HABIB HUSSAIN: supervision — the feedback that we have got
HABIB HUSSAIN: on the back of those first supervision
HABIB HUSSAIN: sessions has been that people are so
HABIB HUSSAIN: grateful and just see how powerful that is
HABIB HUSSAIN: to share and understand what goes on.
HABIB HUSSAIN: You start to link the common themes,
HABIB HUSSAIN: especially because we're in a region; we
HABIB HUSSAIN: can start to contextualise what are those
HABIB HUSSAIN: themes and what can we do as a region but
HABIB HUSSAIN: then maybe even as a trust to start putting
HABIB HUSSAIN: in that network of support around key
HABIB HUSSAIN: themes and key ideas and key problems and
HABIB HUSSAIN: issues, and make sure that we tackle them
HABIB HUSSAIN: as a whole rather than individuals.
KAREN SQUILLINO: Great, so that collective resource there;
KAREN SQUILLINO: so not reinventing wheels every time
KAREN SQUILLINO: there's a different issue in the school.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So what I'm hearing there is the regional
KAREN SQUILLINO: DSL is connecting that and being a
KAREN SQUILLINO: conduit to information sharing across the
KAREN SQUILLINO: piece. So Jill, could you talk to us a
KAREN SQUILLINO: little bit more about the supervision
KAREN SQUILLINO: model that you've implemented?
JILL FULLER: As you know, most people dealing with
JILL FULLER: safeguarding have some form of supervision.
JILL FULLER: When we looked at this as a trust, as a
JILL FULLER: network of Lift schools, we saw lots
JILL FULLER: of different models that were probably pulled
JILL FULLER: together either as online or had been
JILL FULLER: based on social work or children's social
JILL FULLER: care, and there was nothing bespoke to
JILL FULLER: education, which actually looked at the role
JILL FULLER: of a designated safeguarding lead in
JILL FULLER: education.
JILL FULLER: So, just over a year ago, we trained all
JILL FULLER: our regional DSLs and DSLs in our own
JILL FULLER: bespoke supervision model, specifically
JILL FULLER: for education and schools.
JILL FULLER: And from that, we now have what Habib
JILL FULLER: has referred to as group supervision.
JILL FULLER: We have a process and programme.
JILL FULLER: The benefit of that is every single DSL
JILL FULLER: is able to access supervision.
JILL FULLER: We have a way of recording it and the actions
JILL FULLER: from it. I think the most important thing is
JILL FULLER: it's dedicated time for a designated
JILL FULLER: safeguarding lead in a school to reflect.
JILL FULLER: So not always to deal with something
JILL FULLER: immediately as they very often have to
JILL FULLER: and react. They are able to bring their cases
JILL FULLER: — and these are their complex cases — they
JILL FULLER: are to reflect, look at the learning
JILL FULLER: they get from it, share that learning.
JILL FULLER: and then collectively agree actions or review
JILL FULLER: the actions that they've already taken.
JILL FULLER: And the DSL's wellbeing is also
JILL FULLER: supported through this because they are able
JILL FULLER: to just reflect, have some space
JILL FULLER: and dedicated time. And I'm gonna pass to
JILL FULLER: you, Habib, because you've actually run a
JILL FULLER: group supervision session.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Yeah, I mean, what I'd say on the group
HABIB HUSSAIN: supervision is that, like I said, I've been
HABIB HUSSAIN: a DSL at school for many years and it can
HABIB HUSSAIN: be a lonely place. It can be a very, very
HABIB HUSSAIN: stressful place when ultimately you're
HABIB HUSSAIN: making decisions that you know could have
HABIB HUSSAIN: significant impact on the lives of these
HABIB HUSSAIN: young people. I honestly believe that it
HABIB HUSSAIN: was very, very important to get everyone
HABIB HUSSAIN: into a room face-to-face.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And initially it was a bit of, well, that's
HABIB HUSSAIN: a long way to travel. But after three hours
HABIB HUSSAIN: of our session, at the end of it, every
HABIB HUSSAIN: single person said they couldn't wait for
HABIB HUSSAIN: the next session. It really showed the
HABIB HUSSAIN: power of it, and it was very emotional.
HABIB HUSSAIN: I don't think people have ever been in a
HABIB HUSSAIN: room and actually been asked to talk
HABIB HUSSAIN: through their most difficult and most
HABIB HUSSAIN: challenging cases that they've ever
HABIB HUSSAIN: encountered and given the opportunity to
HABIB HUSSAIN: reflect on their practice.
HABIB HUSSAIN: I think it was just refreshing for our DSLs
HABIB HUSSAIN: to know that they have people who care and
HABIB HUSSAIN: who understand and who can offer help and
HABIB HUSSAIN: advice. We look at how things can be done
HABIB HUSSAIN: differently, sometimes better.
HABIB HUSSAIN: There are common themes and common traits
HABIB HUSSAIN: around what is going on in our region and
HABIB HUSSAIN: if we didn't have this model, that may
HABIB HUSSAIN: never have been picked up on.
HABIB HUSSAIN: We've already started to work on this with
HABIB HUSSAIN: certain schools. So we've got three special
HABIB HUSSAIN: schools who are in the same region but I
HABIB HUSSAIN: didn't even know who the DSLs were; and
HABIB HUSSAIN: after that supervision session all three of
HABIB HUSSAIN: them have been in regular contact and are
HABIB HUSSAIN: now sharing practice and are sharing
HABIB HUSSAIN: experiences and asking advice of one
HABIB HUSSAIN: another and they've been doing that
HABIB HUSSAIN: regularly over the last six or seven weeks.
HABIB HUSSAIN: So, on the back of that one session, there
HABIB HUSSAIN: was so much positivity and people really
HABIB HUSSAIN: felt almost rejuvenated; making
HABIB HUSSAIN: them feel like there's people at trust
HABIB HUSSAIN: level that do care and that we do want the
HABIB HUSSAIN: best for them and we are looking out for
HABIB HUSSAIN: their wellbeing as well.
KAREN SQUILLINO: It's brilliant to hear from you both
KAREN SQUILLINO: about the impact that you're seeing
KAREN SQUILLINO: already and the willingness of staff
KAREN SQUILLINO: to engage within that and they can see
KAREN SQUILLINO: the benefit. I'd like to ask you both
KAREN SQUILLINO: about challenges to that, because it has
KAREN SQUILLINO: been quite a shift in models.
KAREN SQUILLINO: When you're operating within a single
KAREN SQUILLINO: school but knowing that, as part of a
KAREN SQUILLINO: multi-academy trust, there is a a
KAREN SQUILLINO: centralised structure, but what you've
KAREN SQUILLINO: done here is really regionalise that
KAREN SQUILLINO: support. So you talked earlier about
KAREN SQUILLINO: recruiting to those designated
KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding leads, the regional posts,
KAREN SQUILLINO: but how did you bring the school on
KAREN SQUILLINO: board with, okay we're going to be
KAREN SQUILLINO: working more in a regional way around
KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding now, to strengthen it.
KAREN SQUILLINO: How was it sort of sold into the school?
KAREN SQUILLINO: How was it presented? And I'm thinking
KAREN SQUILLINO: particularly about— there will be other
KAREN SQUILLINO: people from other academy trusts thinking
KAREN SQUILLINO: now, "okay we might want to think about
KAREN SQUILLINO: this". So I just want to dig into some of
KAREN SQUILLINO: the challenges and how it was
KAREN SQUILLINO: communicated and how you brought people
KAREN SQUILLINO: along with you.
HABIB HUSSAIN: In terms of getting on board and looking at
HABIB HUSSAIN: this in terms of a region, I mean, it
HABIB HUSSAIN: wasn't really a hard sell.
HABIB HUSSAIN: It was, we are buying into something or
HABIB HUSSAIN: buying into a model where we are getting
HABIB HUSSAIN: all of this network and all of this
HABIB HUSSAIN: support and all this experience, and it's
HABIB HUSSAIN: not costing us anything. It's there for us.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And it's just about creating the links with
HABIB HUSSAIN: us and other schools.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And the most amazing thing on the back of
HABIB HUSSAIN: that has been that although this started
HABIB HUSSAIN: off as a regional DSL role,
HABIB HUSSAIN: the amount of people that I put in contact
HABIB HUSSAIN: at schools to create different networks
HABIB HUSSAIN: now, to make sure that this contact between
HABIB HUSSAIN: academies is not just for safeguarding
HABIB HUSSAIN: reasons, it goes beyond that now.
HABIB HUSSAIN: You know, when we start looking at
HABIB HUSSAIN: trauma-informed practices in terms of
HABIB HUSSAIN: behaviour. Although I go in there with the
HABIB HUSSAIN: hat of a regional DSL, part of the visit
HABIB HUSSAIN: is that I will offer to look at, you know,
HABIB HUSSAIN: attendance; how people are registered and
HABIB HUSSAIN: then deregistered and make sure that
HABIB HUSSAIN: processes and systems are in place for
HABIB HUSSAIN: that. I will offer to look at people's
HABIB HUSSAIN: behaviour policies to make sure they are
HABIB HUSSAIN: inclusive and make sure that we're looking
HABIB HUSSAIN: at how suspensions are given and how
HABIB HUSSAIN: we can reduce those.
HABIB HUSSAIN: So it has been one step, but it has
HABIB HUSSAIN: led to so many different conversations
HABIB HUSSAIN: happening with other schools.
HABIB HUSSAIN: In terms of going into other schools, the
HABIB HUSSAIN: big challenge was I'm a DSL.
HABIB HUSSAIN: I'm a deputy head at a school. I was going
HABIB HUSSAIN: into some schools where the DSLs are head
HABIB HUSSAIN: teachers. So I went in there and I had to
HABIB HUSSAIN: remind myself that this is the head teacher
HABIB HUSSAIN: and this is a new role.
HABIB HUSSAIN: And I had go in there and I had to convince
HABIB HUSSAIN: people that I'm not there to spy on people.
HABIB HUSSAIN: I'm not there to check up on people in that
HABIB HUSSAIN: sense; that this a supportive measure and
HABIB HUSSAIN: that we're trying to create a network to
HABIB HUSSAIN: help not only support you, but you might be
HABIB HUSSAIN: able to support me and other people as
HABIB HUSSAIN: well.
JILL FULLER: That's what safeguarding is, it's about
JILL FULLER: learning. But I think the other thing that
JILL FULLER: gave real credibility was that a
JILL FULLER: regional DSL is a designated safeguarding
JILL FULLER: lead, DSL, in their own right.
JILL FULLER: They are in a school every day dealing
JILL FULLER: with those issues. So it's not somebody, say,
JILL FULLER: from a central team that might be perceived
JILL FULLER: as "you sit in an office somewhere and you
JILL FULLER: don't see these children and young people
JILL FULLER: every day and their families", because I
JILL FULLER: think that's the other important thing.
JILL FULLER: Designated safeguarding leads in schools and
JILL FULLER: the regional DSLs in schools see the young
JILL FULLER: children and their families regularly.
JILL FULLER: They know the families, they know the
JILL FULLER: communities. I think the regional DLS bring
JILL FULLER: that credibility when they go out and do
JILL FULLER: these visits because they live and breathe
JILL FULLER: those jobs themselves in their schools, every
JILL FULLER: single day.
KAREN SQUILLINO: It certainly, from listening to you both
KAREN SQUILLINO: speak, it certainly feels like something
KAREN SQUILLINO: that is being responded to really
KAREN SQUILLINO: positively and the opportunity there to
KAREN SQUILLINO: share information amongst professionals
KAREN SQUILLINO: to assist in defensible decision-making;
KAREN SQUILLINO: that will serve
KAREN SQUILLINO: to strengthen the safeguarding across the
KAREN SQUILLINO: ascademy trust.
KAREN SQUILLINO: And the reason we wanted to do this
KAREN SQUILLINO: podcast — and Jill, you and I spoke about
KAREN SQUILLINO: it, didn't we — was because this is about
KAREN SQUILLINO: sharing with other multi-academy trusts
KAREN SQUILLINO: about what we're doing at Lift.
KAREN SQUILLINO: And it's really great to hear about how
KAREN SQUILLINO: this has landed and the impact that it's
KAREN SQUILLINO: having. But what would you share from
KAREN SQUILLINO: your own learning about putting this
KAREN SQUILLINO: process in place with other multi-academy
KAREN SQUILLINO: trusts that will be listening and thinking,
KAREN SQUILLINO: "right, we may want to do something
KAREN SQUILLINO: similar". What are the watch-outs with
KAREN SQUILLINO: this?
JILL FULLER: I think the most important thing is we didn't
JILL FULLER: want to be perceived as another tick box
JILL FULLER: check-in. We didn't this team to
JILL FULLER: be: we're coming in to do more checks.
JILL FULLER: So when we do those checks, I think it's very
JILL FULLER: important how you communicate that out and
JILL FULLER: the framework that a regional DSL has
JILL FULLER: when they go into a school.
JILL FULLER: The takeaways for me is the credibility of
JILL FULLER: those that take a regional role on.
JILL FULLER: They've got to be credible, I think,
JILL FULLER: and have an expertise.
JILL FULLER: It's got to be communicated really
JILL FULLER: clearly and effectively about what that role
JILL FULLER: is and that it's a supportive role.
JILL FULLER: And it's one where you build trust — because
JILL FULLER: I think that's really important — and it's
JILL FULLER: not around, we're coming in to catch you out.
JILL FULLER: It's supportive. It's about developing,
JILL FULLER: sharing and learning around safeguarding.
JILL FULLER: The other thing we do have to recognise is
JILL FULLER: there will be occasions where there will be
JILL FULLER: a difference of opinion about how you might
JILL FULLER: deal with a particular safeguarding issue or
JILL FULLER: where somebody has a way of working that they
JILL FULLER: are particularly keen on maintaining.
JILL FULLER: We sometimes have to say, we get all of that,
JILL FULLER: but we are a trust of 57
JILL FULLER: schools and we do need to have certain
JILL FULLER: consistency around what we're doing.
JILL FULLER: Otherwise we can't measure, we can't see the
JILL FULLER: impact, we can't get the insights we need.
JILL FULLER: And sometimes that has been one of the
JILL FULLER: challenges, around saying "we're just moving
JILL FULLER: to that, there is a reason we're doing this
JILL FULLER: and you have got a brilliant way of recording
JILL FULLER: this and it's really good, but it doesn't
JILL FULLER: sit with all the other ways that we're
JILL FULLER: recording across our other schools".
JILL FULLER: And it's little things like that, but I think
JILL FULLER: it's the manner in which the message is
JILL FULLER: delivered, which is very important.
JILL FULLER: That would be the takeaway for me.
JILL FULLER: I don't know if you've got anything to add
JILL FULLER: Habib.
HABIB HUSSAIN: No, I completely agree. It's when you go into
HABIB HUSSAIN: a school and you share your practices, or
HABIB HUSSAIN: practices that you've found, or that have
HABIB HUSSAIN: been agreed. That if you follow this, you
HABIB HUSSAIN: will be compliant, and if you go above and
HABIB HUSSAIN: beyond this, you will be making your way
HABIB HUSSAIN: towards excellence. Sometimes people, who
HABIB HUSSAIN: have worked incredibly hard on some
HABIB HUSSAIN: systems, might have created something that
HABIB HUSSAIN: they feel is fit for purpose and they find
HABIB HUSSAIN: it difficult to let go. You have to be very
HABIB HUSSAIN: sensitive to that and you have to give
HABIB HUSSAIN: people transition time.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Sometimes you can't just go in and say,
HABIB HUSSAIN: "you have to do it now, here, right now".
HABIB HUSSAIN: You can't have those hard and fast
HABIB HUSSAIN: deadlines that this is going to happen this
HABIB HUSSAIN: way when I say so.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Unless it has to be done.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Obviously, if there's a real concern, then
HABIB HUSSAIN: you have make someone understand.
HABIB HUSSAIN: But there has to that transition period and
HABIB HUSSAIN: you have be sensitive to the fact that
HABIB HUSSAIN: people work incredibly hard. Anyone who's
HABIB HUSSAIN: dealing with safeguarding works incredibly
HABIB HUSSAIN: hard and they do things with the right
HABIB HUSSAIN: intentions. And sometimes when you show
HABIB HUSSAIN: people a different way of doing something,
HABIB HUSSAIN: sometimes it lands well and people can see
HABIB HUSSAIN: that this is going to work better and they
HABIB HUSSAIN: welcome it with open arms; but sometimes
HABIB HUSSAIN: people feel that this is just a different
HABIB HUSSAIN: way of doing it and they don't understand
HABIB HUSSAIN: that because we are part of a trust, and we
HABIB HUSSAIN: need that consistency to be able to measure
HABIB HUSSAIN: impact across the academy, you have to make
HABIB HUSSAIN: them understand the bigger picture, not
HABIB HUSSAIN: just on a school level but on a trust
HABIB HUSSAIN: level. That was something that in some
HABIB HUSSAIN: areas took a little bit more work.
HABIB HUSSAIN: You do need to spend a bit more time and
HABIB HUSSAIN: make people understand why you're doing
HABIB HUSSAIN: what you're doing. It's not just to be difficult.
HABIB HUSSAIN: It's not just a tick box exercise.
HABIB HUSSAIN: It is there to make sure that all of those
HABIB HUSSAIN: checks and balances are in place, and this
HABIB HUSSAIN: is ultimately going to safeguard you when
HABIB HUSSAIN: it comes to making those decisions, when it
HABIB HUSSAIN: come to those really complex cases, to make
HABIB HUSSAIN: that you've got all of those different
HABIB HUSSAIN: layers of checks, to make sure that you
HABIB HUSSAIN: ultimately get to the right outcome; but
HABIB HUSSAIN: also to make sure that there's logic and
HABIB HUSSAIN: you follow the correct sequence to get to
HABIB HUSSAIN: that. We have got certain pro formas that
HABIB HUSSAIN: we now ask all of our schools to use.
HABIB HUSSAIN: We have a dashboard and key areas such as
HABIB HUSSAIN: CPOMS — we use a platform called CPOMS to
HABIB HUSSAIN: record and monitor trends and to record any
HABIB HUSSAIN: safeguarding issues. We also have a
HABIB HUSSAIN: dashboard where we record all of our
HABIB HUSSAIN: alternative provision students, to make
HABIB HUSSAIN: sure that we track and monitor and just
HABIB HUSSAIN: because they're out of sight, they're not out of mind.
HABIB HUSSAIN: So there's crucial areas that we do insist
HABIB HUSSAIN: that all of out schools follow a certain
HABIB HUSSAIN: process and make sure that we all are doing
HABIB HUSSAIN: the same things to ensure consistency but
HABIB HUSSAIN: also to make sure that we are
HABIB HUSSAIN: compliant in all those areas and that there
HABIB HUSSAIN: isn't
HABIB HUSSAIN: any question if we do have any visits or any inspections.
JILL FULLER: One of the other things around having so
JILL FULLER: many schools which is really good, is each of
JILL FULLER: them has a slightly different structure.
JILL FULLER: So there's no one model, because the
JILL FULLER: structure will be built up on the resources
JILL FULLER: in the school, the number of pupils, all
JILL FULLER: kinds of things.
JILL FULLER: One of things that we bring through this
JILL FULLER: framework is what we call an inclusion team,
JILL FULLER: because safeguarding doesn't sit on its own,
JILL FULLER: and Habib referred to this, as a silo.
JILL FULLER: It does cross over with attendance.
JILL FULLER: It does cross over with the PSHE
JILL FULLER: curriculum. It does cross over with
JILL FULLER: behaviour. It does crossover with SEND.
JILL FULLER: So it's really, really important that
JILL FULLER: each of those moving components
JILL FULLER: understand their role in safeguarding.
JILL FULLER: We've done a lot of work around those
JILL FULLER: operating models and structures in schools.
JILL FULLER: We haven't changed the structure necessarily.
JILL FULLER: It's more about bringing that as an inclusive
JILL FULLER: team. And one other point I think I'd bring
JILL FULLER: in as well: our size means that we work with
JILL FULLER: a lot of different local authorities — I
JILL FULLER: think we've got 25 or 26.
JILL FULLER: Now, each of those is different and
JILL FULLER: individual, and each of our schools has to
JILL FULLER: develop that relationship with that local
JILL FULLER: authority and their multi-agency partners.
JILL FULLER: So I think it's also being mindful when you
JILL FULLER: go— even in Habib's region, for instance,
JILL FULLER: there's probably three different local
JILL FULLER: authority that the schools within that work
JILL FULLER: with, and we have to recognise that.
JILL FULLER: I wouldn't call it a challenge, but it has to
JILL FULLER: be recognised and we have to work within the
JILL FULLER: constraints of that local authority and their
JILL FULLER: escalation, which is something when you have
JILL FULLER: a very, very complex case where you might be
JILL FULLER: escalating up through a range of multi-agency
JILL FULLER: partners and we mean by that children's
JILL FULLER: social care, police.
JILL FULLER: So that was part of what we had to
JILL FULLER: factor in when we were looking at developing
JILL FULLER: this regional model.
KAREN SQUILLINO: That's great. It's really fascinating because,
KAREN SQUILLINO: thinking about the importance of that
KAREN SQUILLINO: local context for the schools, you've
KAREN SQUILLINO: created that consistency, which is then
KAREN SQUILLINO: enabling that culture to develop.
KAREN SQUILLINO: That's been predicated on really good
KAREN SQUILLINO: communication.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So you're not just communicating within
KAREN SQUILLINO: the schools now, there's communication
KAREN SQUILLINO: right across the network, which has added
KAREN SQUILLINO: some really much needed capacity for
KAREN SQUILLINO: safeguarding, which ultimately will
KAREN SQUILLINO: impact the lives of children and young
KAREN SQUILLINO: people really positively.
KAREN SQUILLINO: So Habib, Jill, thank you so much for
KAREN SQUILLINO: your time this afternoon.
KAREN SQUILLINO: It's been really fascinating to hear
KAREN SQUILLINO: about the approach that's been taken at
KAREN SQUILLINO: Lift in terms of safeguarding and hearing
KAREN SQUILLINO: about the supervision model has been
KAREN SQUILLINO: really fascinating. And I hope it's given
KAREN SQUILLINO: other multi-academy trusts some thoughts
KAREN SQUILLINO: and ideas about taking that model forward
KAREN SQUILLINO: for themselves. So thank you once again
KAREN SQUILLINO: for joining us and goodbye.
JILL FULLER: Thank you.
HABIB HUSSAIN: Thank you.
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OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and
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