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Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm
here in an undisclosed location, with Adam

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MacQueen, Helen Lewis, and Ian Hislop.

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We are here to discuss the news of
the last two weeks, give or take,

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maybe even the next two weeks.

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And, we start off with the fact that
we've got a completely new government.

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We've had a reshuffle, new....?

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Adam: Well largely new.

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Yeah.

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Andy: Yes, sorry, new.

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Ian: I thought it was largely
the same... with different desks.

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Adam: Funny thing was... last press
day, so we're going back to, Monday,

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the 1st of September at about, 10 30.

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Once we thought everything was pretty
much done and we knew what copy was

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coming in, nothing else was happening.

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There's suddenly a big BBC breaking
news thing saying, Reshuffle Kicks Off.

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And I thought, oh my God, we're
gonna have to pull apart the entire

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magazine and redo it completely.

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And that turned out to be the Minister
for Paperclips was swapped with the

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Minister for nice biscuits with tea
and coffee after cabinet meetings.

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And that was pretty much
it, as far as I could see.

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So I thought we were safe at that point.

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At which point I, I disappeared off
on holiday for a couple of days.

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And a message from Helen, to
say, have you seen the news?

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And it, Angela Rainham resigned.

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And as you say, we'd had a lot, we
had a largely new cabinet suddenly.

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So...

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Andy: yeah, quite a lot of changes.

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New, what is it?

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New Home secretary, new foreign

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Helen: new Deputy prime Minister,
and then loads of changes.

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The two ones that have been gone a bit
under the radar is Pat McFadden, who is

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the kind of last surviving Blairite and
Keir Starmer's big fixer and straight back

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player on political shows has ended up
at the Department of Work and Pensions.

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And Johnny Reynolds who was a
business has gone to be Chief Whip.

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And the really interesting thing
about that is that suggests that

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they're going to try and put welfare.

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Cuts through again, because essentially
they tried to put through changes

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to personal independence payments
completely failed to do so because

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of a huge back bench rebellion.

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I think that they still know that
is a big target, a lot of money.

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They eventually end up making changes
that look like they'll be net costing them

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money now on the welfare bill and it's
money that they don't feel that they have.

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So there's.... that's part of it.

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And then the other part of it, I think
is a, feeling that they wanted Shabana

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Mahmood in at Home because she's the
most hard line on immigration and boats

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Every day they wake up and
thinking about how they're going

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to lose to Reform basically.

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And so they know that's the one
issue that they've absolutely gotta

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get a grip on is asylum, hotels

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Ian: I couldn't see what new weapons,
as Chief Whip, Reynolds has that

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the previous Chief Whip didn't have.

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Is it personality alone?

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what, why should the back benchers
put through any reforms this time

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that they didn't want last time?

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Helen: Johnny Reynolds
is famously very nice.

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For many years he used to send me
a Christmas card with all of his

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adorable children in matching sweaters.

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I think the labrador may even also
have been in a matching sweater.

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Adam: you think they've basically
gone from bad cop to good

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Helen: I think they may try in
good cop, but I agree with you.

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the way I see it is that lots of
these people think, I was elected in

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a Northern English seat or, street.

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I don't think I'm gonna win it next time.

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Do I want the one thing to come out of
my five years in parliament to have been

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taken money away from disabled people?

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So I think they will still struggle
to make that case with back benchers,

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but they obviously are trying to.

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Put people in that they
absolutely feel they can trust.

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There's been a lot of stuff
happening in the back room as well,

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actually as well, just to try and
make that Number 10 operation.

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And yeah, they brought back, Tim
Allen, I'm sure friend of the magazine.

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Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah.

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you're a dictator, then there
was only, for a time, there was

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only really one person to call.

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which is interesting to me because I
think one of the problems that this

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government has is they don't really
understand what the media is now.

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They're still wedded to the idea
of the six o'clock news bulletin or

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getting something on page one of the
Telegraph or whatever it might be.

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I think they're beginning to
realize that they really need to

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be on places like TikTok, where
Nigel Farage is absolutely massive.

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And James Lyons, who, has left as
recently as government communications

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advisor, said this in a LinkedIn post.

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He said, it's changed massively
even in the time I was there.

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And I still don't think we've really
got to grips with what it's like

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to try and make our case in this,

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Adam: That was something that struck
me with Shabana Mahmood as well, who

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as, as well as being the, most, hard
line and, socially conservative person.

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It was also, in terms of effectiveness, I
was thinking the last really big success

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they had in selling a story to the public
was the very awkward situation they were

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left with the massive prison population
that was, that was gonna explode.

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And she very successfully, as
justice secretary, managed to

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sell that back as this is a mess.

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We were left by the Tories
and this is what we're gonna

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have to do to get over it.

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It is not ideal for anyone.

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That was the last time I can
remember these government feeling

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quite surefooted on something
and, communicating it quite well

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Ian: And using an amazing
technique known as honesty.

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Adam: Mm.

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Ian: Which, is worth a try, occasionally.

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We have to let these people out
'cause there isn't room for them.

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We don't want to, we hate
them as much as you do.

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We don't wanna see them coming out
and being picked up in Jags by their

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old mates and having a glass of
champagne, but we haven't got any cells.

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That sort of worked.

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Adam: Yeah.

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I mean it was a potentially
government ending moment, wasn't it?

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The, that sort of imagery.

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And, somehow did pass and paved
away for new disasters thereafter.

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Helen: The other interesting one is that
Steve Reed has ended up going to housing.

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Now he is, music to my ears, a little
bit on the build baby build side.

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And I think they realize that target
1.5 million homes is something

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that they're going to be judged on.

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there is a housing theory of everything
about what's wrong with British politics.

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And if you look at something
like asylum hotels, that's a

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very good example of it, right?

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Actually, where are we gonna
put people while they wait for

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their claims to be processed?

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There's two problems there: no
places to put them, and it's huge

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backlogs in Home Office processing.

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So anything that can address
housing is, going to be, is gonna

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make everything else across all
their other policy areas easier.

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The massive fall from the Boris wave of
immigration to this year's immigration

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because it's something close to hared.

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I mean it's, they have
actually gone oh no.

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And I'm trying to work out why
Boris Johnson let that happen.

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Was that an ideological thing or did
he just.... be ready to be shocked

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here, simply just do something
He didn't really understand the

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Ian: What you mean carelessness
and inattention to detail?

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Helen: It seems unlikely.

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I know.

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Ian: I don't think so.

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Andy: But it was always gonna
be a lump in it, as it were.

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'cause of Ukraine and Hong Kong.

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Yeah.

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Which both added
substantially to the stat.

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And I believe I'm right in saying that the
backlog, people waiting for their claims

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to be processed is substantially down.

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Helen: Yeah.

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And NHS waiting list have fallen
a bit and they have seen off a

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reasonable number of strike threats,
not the tube strike threats that are

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happening as we're recording this.

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But it isn't actually quite as bleak a
picture as you might initially think.

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Although I'm currently feeling
quite pessimistic about it all.

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Andy: if that backlog has come down...
and I think it's by a decent chunk in

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what have they had now 14 months, the
question then becomes, does that matter?

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Or is the debate about immigration
boats, housing flags, all of that

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now so dominant and so toxic that
even results don't make a difference.

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Helen: Also they just lack the
ability to punch Nigel Farage.

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Stephen Bush, my former colleague,
The New Statesman said this, they're

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planning to run the next election
against Nigel Farage as a fear message.

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Do you really want this
guy to be Prime Minister?

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'cause lots of people, for
everyone that does are someone

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that doesn't, but they won't tell
you what you should be afraid of.

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And so there's this mad situation
when he said, look, I'm gonna

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return people 'cause we'll get out
the EHCR and I'll return them to

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Afghanistan and I'll, I'll pay them.

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And people went, you're
going to pay the Taliban.

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You're going to give money to the Taliban.

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and they couldn't really land that point.

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That this guy is so irresponsible.

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He'll give money to people we've said are
jihadists and terrorists and misogynists

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Ian: And it's worse than that.

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You'll, pay money to the Taliban to murder
people who were on our side briefly.

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Yeah.

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During the war.

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Helen: And this is the kind of thing
I think that a kind of Government

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comms operation ought to be able to

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make a little bit of hay out of.

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Helen: But they can't, they just, they,
they just can't quite get there on

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Ian: But the problem with blaming the
government comms office, just a way of...

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as is always true in British polls...
of saying, the advisors aren't much, the

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comms aren't, could the leaders do it?

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The members of the cabinet?

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I dunno...

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I suppose we should
say what's brought this

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Andy: whole reshuffle on in the
first place, and, say a sound

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farewell to Angela Rayner.

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Probably on au reviour.

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I imagine.

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Adam: Can she stand
again for Deputy Leader?

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That's something I haven't seen anyway.

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Could she just, I know I was talking
about the threat from the left and

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who might stand for deputy leader.

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Could she just put herself up
for it again, having resigned?

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Helen: I think technically she could,
you have to get a certain number of,

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either CLPs or trade unions and MPs.
There's this kind of two step process

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to show you've got a reasonable
amount of support to winow people out.

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There may be some bit in the rule book
that says you can't do it immediately.

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In the same way that Kemi Badenoch's
most favored line in the conservative

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rule book is that you can't have a
leadership challenge within a year

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of the new Tory leader getting in.

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There are a lot of people who are showing
a suspiciously high level of interest

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in the Gaza situation in a way that
suggests that they are about to imminently

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announce deputy two leadership bids.

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I'm looking at you, Emily
Thornbury and Stella Creasy

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Adam: Remember Suella Braverman resigning
from Liz Truss's Government, and then

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coming back immediately to the same
job as Home Secretary in Rishi Sunak's,

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just like a couple of weeks later.

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Ian: But are we saying A, that
people's memories are short or

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B, that they just don't care?

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So if, you are judged to have
behaved very badly and badly enough

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to have to resign from the second
highest job in the country, that

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doesn't mean you can't come back.

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it suggests you've done
something wrong in the first

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place, the record, which you
haven't obviously, because

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no

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one

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has ever done anything
wrong at any point in any

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Adam: The

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record on people being brought
back is not a brilliant one, is it?

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you might remember both Peter Mandelson
and David Bunker had resigned from

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Blair's government, and were both brought
back fairly rapidly to other jobs.

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Do you remember what happened next?

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Oh, yes.

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Both of them then had to
resign again, didn't they?

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Ian: But Lord Mandelson is now with us,

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Adam: like

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the poor.

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He is always with us, isn't he?

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Yeah, no, he's, he does just keep
bobbing bad up back up to the, the

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surfers of the pan, doesn't he?

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It's extraordinary.

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Helen: I'm gonna say that I'm quite
sympathetic to Angela Rayna on the basis

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of someone who has to do a, a tax return.

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I don't understand any of it.

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I don't think anyone can

230
00:09:26,324 --> 00:09:26,414
Adam: that.

231
00:09:26,564 --> 00:09:27,734
I'm not sure anyone does.

232
00:09:27,944 --> 00:09:31,424
I was thinking about this is
it the most boring reason for

233
00:09:31,664 --> 00:09:33,104
a political resignation ever?

234
00:09:33,314 --> 00:09:36,554
I absolutely She had to go, she'd gone
against the ministerial code of ethics.

235
00:09:37,039 --> 00:09:37,694
I'm, not disputing that

236
00:09:37,694 --> 00:09:37,784
at

237
00:09:37,807 --> 00:09:37,904
Andy: all.

238
00:09:37,964 --> 00:09:38,264
So what

239
00:09:38,264 --> 00:09:38,509
was it?

240
00:09:38,519 --> 00:09:38,679
Adam: It was

241
00:09:38,714 --> 00:09:39,584
so

242
00:09:39,614 --> 00:09:44,504
technical, As I understand it, she went
because she'd failed to seek further tax

243
00:09:44,504 --> 00:09:49,394
advice as recommended by lawyers on her
stamp duty obligation on buying a second

244
00:09:49,394 --> 00:09:49,694
home.

245
00:09:49,859 --> 00:09:50,099
Ian: Yeah.

246
00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:52,919
And then lied about it and
then tried to throw the local

247
00:09:52,919 --> 00:09:55,379
convincing firm under a bus.

248
00:09:55,999 --> 00:09:58,769
she was the minister
responsible for housing.

249
00:09:58,949 --> 00:10:04,199
So when for the second time, in six
months, you are involved in a housing

250
00:10:04,199 --> 00:10:10,169
purchase scandal, you might think, you
just might think, I better ask someone

251
00:10:10,169 --> 00:10:15,059
who knows about this, or I'd better
take the safe route and pay the maximum

252
00:10:15,119 --> 00:10:17,279
amount of tax rather than the minimum.

253
00:10:18,599 --> 00:10:18,899
just

254
00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,319
Helen: No, but also this is the government
of the ironic resignation, isn't it?

255
00:10:22,319 --> 00:10:24,989
And you get your anti-corruption
person, having to resign for

256
00:10:24,989 --> 00:10:26,104
corruption and ones going through.

257
00:10:26,249 --> 00:10:26,339
and

258
00:10:26,894 --> 00:10:30,044
Adam: in terms of absolute slam
dunks, they do stay on topic with all

259
00:10:30,044 --> 00:10:30,974
of their resignations, don't they?

260
00:10:30,974 --> 00:10:33,974
So we lost, R Han Alley just
a couple of weeks earlier.

261
00:10:34,304 --> 00:10:36,884
the homelessness Minister, she had
to resign after evicting tenants and

262
00:10:36,884 --> 00:10:39,584
putting the rent up while specifically
trying to push through the renter's

263
00:10:39,584 --> 00:10:43,274
rights bill, through Parliament, which
banned exactly that sort of behavior.

264
00:10:43,274 --> 00:10:46,754
We had Tulip Sadik, who was the treasury
minister, who was responsible for,

265
00:10:47,984 --> 00:10:51,614
fighting financial corruption accused,
and now in fact on trial incent in

266
00:10:51,614 --> 00:10:54,374
Bangladesh for financial corruption
connected to her aunt over there.

267
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:54,569
Ian: Yeah.

268
00:10:54,569 --> 00:10:56,399
Aren't she Corruption was her, brief.

269
00:10:57,284 --> 00:11:00,404
Adam: We had Louis Hague, that was
an undisclosed conviction for fraud.

270
00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:03,360
when her mobile phone turned out not
to have been stolen, and she'd just

271
00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:04,710
gone an upgrade to an iPhone instead.

272
00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:05,640
Now, that wasn't connected.

273
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,860
She was Minister for Transport, so
that wasn't entirely connected to her

274
00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:10,920
brief, but slight iron in the fact
that she was working for an insurance

275
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:11,400
company at

276
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:11,460
the

277
00:11:11,460 --> 00:11:11,790
time.

278
00:11:11,790 --> 00:11:11,850
So

279
00:11:11,995 --> 00:11:12,445
Ian: but wouldn't

280
00:11:12,445 --> 00:11:15,985
say you were Deputy Prime Minister and
there'd been all these series of scandals

281
00:11:15,985 --> 00:11:17,815
and enforced resignations going on.

282
00:11:18,025 --> 00:11:20,375
Wouldn't that make you
slightly more careful?

283
00:11:21,010 --> 00:11:22,030
Adam: You would think so, wouldn't you?

284
00:11:22,105 --> 00:11:22,225
Ian: Yeah.

285
00:11:22,530 --> 00:11:22,750
and

286
00:11:22,795 --> 00:11:25,828
the charge of recklessness
does that not hold?

287
00:11:26,108 --> 00:11:27,313
Adam: Oh, I think it absolutely does.

288
00:11:27,313 --> 00:11:27,583
Hold.

289
00:11:27,583 --> 00:11:28,963
I'm just saying it's the technicalities.

290
00:11:28,963 --> 00:11:30,103
It gets slightly lost in the weed.

291
00:11:30,253 --> 00:11:33,973
the fact that it took, kind of two
weeks, it was more than two weeks.

292
00:11:33,973 --> 00:11:35,263
'cause we had the scandal
last year, didn't we?

293
00:11:35,263 --> 00:11:39,193
Weren't we had the o over the
home in Stockport or Stockton

294
00:11:39,223 --> 00:11:39,343
Ian: was

295
00:11:39,343 --> 00:11:39,403
it?

296
00:11:39,403 --> 00:11:40,213
Yeah, the original.

297
00:11:40,363 --> 00:11:40,903
Adam: yeah.

298
00:11:40,903 --> 00:11:43,963
And the, I remember the mail on Sunday
going into two pages of forensic

299
00:11:43,963 --> 00:11:47,323
dissection of Instagram photos of
her sofa cushions, which was supposed

300
00:11:47,323 --> 00:11:50,443
to prove whether or not it was the,
that's the thing with s it's quite hard

301
00:11:50,683 --> 00:11:53,323
when, they're very, straightforward,
like the ones we've just mentioned.

302
00:11:53,323 --> 00:11:55,273
It's really nice and
easy to make them stick.

303
00:11:55,273 --> 00:11:58,513
But some of them, it's just a
lot more complicated, isn't it?

304
00:11:58,903 --> 00:12:02,923
Ian: But again, the overall optics,
which I believe comms departments call

305
00:12:02,923 --> 00:12:03,703
this, is

306
00:12:03,775 --> 00:12:07,555
someone who shouts Tory scum and
spent a huge amount of time having a

307
00:12:07,555 --> 00:12:09,805
go at the other side for corruption.

308
00:12:10,138 --> 00:12:14,722
and tax avoidance just
should be a bit more careful.

309
00:12:14,812 --> 00:12:15,742
Helen: That's the what da.

310
00:12:15,862 --> 00:12:15,982
Yeah.

311
00:12:15,982 --> 00:12:16,252
Damned it.

312
00:12:16,252 --> 00:12:16,462
You're right.

313
00:12:16,462 --> 00:12:19,372
She, he was straight out the traps on
someone like Madam Za Howie, for example.

314
00:12:19,522 --> 00:12:23,122
And there was a lethal moment, a prime
minister's question when, Kerry Barock

315
00:12:23,122 --> 00:12:26,602
said there was some dimension of her being
the minister and responsible for housing.

316
00:12:26,602 --> 00:12:27,742
And everyone groaned.

317
00:12:28,222 --> 00:12:31,162
And as soon as you become that sort of
punchline, the government would never

318
00:12:31,162 --> 00:12:34,732
be able to say anything about housing
as on, if, the second thing is everyone

319
00:12:34,732 --> 00:12:38,842
groans that I, and I thought, that's,
that's, that, just that exemplifies

320
00:12:38,842 --> 00:12:40,012
why she just had, she did have

321
00:12:40,744 --> 00:12:42,694
Andy: now all this is leading up
to a very exciting thing, which

322
00:12:42,694 --> 00:12:43,984
I know you've prepared Adam.

323
00:12:44,344 --> 00:12:48,574
Which is a brief quiz about some of
the most technical and obstru reasons

324
00:12:48,754 --> 00:12:50,284
ministers have ever had to resign.

325
00:12:50,284 --> 00:12:50,824
Is that right?

326
00:12:51,124 --> 00:12:51,604
Adam: Yes.

327
00:12:51,664 --> 00:12:53,344
We are not doing the
big sex scandals here.

328
00:12:53,404 --> 00:12:55,384
We are doing the really slightly

329
00:12:55,384 --> 00:12:56,674
tedious workmanlike

330
00:12:56,876 --> 00:12:57,079
Helen: ones.

331
00:12:57,109 --> 00:12:59,119
Can I say that Ian is
looking very confident about

332
00:12:59,164 --> 00:12:59,254
Adam: These

333
00:12:59,794 --> 00:13:00,509
Ian: These are the ones I

334
00:13:00,576 --> 00:13:00,799
Helen: like.

335
00:13:00,829 --> 00:13:00,979
Yeah.

336
00:13:02,344 --> 00:13:03,994
Adam: We have mentioned
Peter Mandelson already.

337
00:13:03,994 --> 00:13:05,614
So not the first resignation.

338
00:13:05,614 --> 00:13:07,264
That was an absolute slam
dunker, if you remember.

339
00:13:07,264 --> 00:13:11,014
He, he failed to disclose it
was housing again, wasn't he?

340
00:13:11,019 --> 00:13:14,704
He failed to disclose something that
might seem relevant to certain people.

341
00:13:14,704 --> 00:13:21,304
He, he owed 373,000 to another cabinet
minister who he was working with across

342
00:13:21,304 --> 00:13:24,064
the table, which he'd used to buy a
very, expensive house in Notting Hill.

343
00:13:24,814 --> 00:13:25,894
that's why he went that time.

344
00:13:25,894 --> 00:13:27,784
But as I say, he was then
brought back to the cabinet.

345
00:13:27,784 --> 00:13:29,914
Can you remember why he
had to resign the second

346
00:13:29,914 --> 00:13:30,304
time?

347
00:13:31,069 --> 00:13:32,509
Helen: he's rather passports, right?

348
00:13:32,509 --> 00:13:35,809
He got, he was involved in helping to get
passports for a couple of people who were

349
00:13:35,809 --> 00:13:37,669
Labour donors and industrial tycoons.

350
00:13:37,684 --> 00:13:40,204
Adam: And at this point, ahead of
the private eye lawyer, I jump in to

351
00:13:40,204 --> 00:13:44,428
say that at the inquiry into it, he
was cleared of improper involvement

352
00:13:44,428 --> 00:13:46,108
in trying to, source that passport.

353
00:13:46,108 --> 00:13:47,458
But yes, it was, and it was all turned up.

354
00:13:47,458 --> 00:13:50,518
Do you remember why it was felt that
he owed a favor to the Hinduja family?

355
00:13:50,796 --> 00:13:50,916
Andy: There

356
00:13:50,931 --> 00:13:55,011
Ian: Had they set up a, a Mushy
P factory in Hartley Pool?

357
00:13:57,321 --> 00:13:57,861
Adam: No, I'm a friend.

358
00:13:57,861 --> 00:13:58,641
He's even more time than that.

359
00:13:58,641 --> 00:13:59,601
He was the Millennium Dome.

360
00:13:59,661 --> 00:14:00,621
They were sponsors

361
00:14:00,621 --> 00:14:03,561
of the Millennium Dome or a
zone in the Millennium Dome.

362
00:14:03,981 --> 00:14:04,791
Yeah, indeed.

363
00:14:05,858 --> 00:14:08,731
Boris Johnson, promised to lie
down in front of bulldozers to

364
00:14:08,731 --> 00:14:10,441
stop Heathrow's third runway.

365
00:14:10,501 --> 00:14:10,576
Yes.

366
00:14:10,711 --> 00:14:10,831
Helen: Mm-hmm.

367
00:14:11,881 --> 00:14:15,601
Adam: so ahead of a parliamentary
vote on exactly that subject, which

368
00:14:15,601 --> 00:14:18,961
minister resigned from Teresa de
MA's government on principle so

369
00:14:18,961 --> 00:14:20,311
that they could vote against the

370
00:14:20,311 --> 00:14:20,941
third runway.

371
00:14:21,091 --> 00:14:22,261
Helen: Was it Zack Goldsmith?

372
00:14:22,561 --> 00:14:22,916
Adam: it was not.

373
00:14:23,011 --> 00:14:23,071
Helen: Oh.

374
00:14:23,148 --> 00:14:25,938
I've now got views in my brain with
the time that Michael gave either

375
00:14:25,938 --> 00:14:28,818
locked himself or got himself locked
in the toilet on his first day as

376
00:14:28,818 --> 00:14:31,878
chief whip, which I just is a way
to get out of a vote that you don't

377
00:14:31,878 --> 00:14:32,058
wanna

378
00:14:32,058 --> 00:14:32,218
Adam: vote.

379
00:14:33,278 --> 00:14:33,498
But

380
00:14:33,873 --> 00:14:37,623
Ian: Boris Johnson flew to Afghanistan.

381
00:14:37,653 --> 00:14:38,313
Adam: He did indeed.

382
00:14:38,616 --> 00:14:40,762
Ian: in order to have a
meeting, in order to not

383
00:14:40,947 --> 00:14:42,897
Adam: be in the country so
he wouldn't have to vote.

384
00:14:42,897 --> 00:14:43,137
Yeah.

385
00:14:43,197 --> 00:14:43,407
Yeah.

386
00:14:43,617 --> 00:14:44,542
Ian: Who resigned?

387
00:14:45,312 --> 00:14:45,932
Adam: I'll give you a clue.

388
00:14:48,762 --> 00:14:50,022
Helen: for audio listeners.

389
00:14:50,022 --> 00:14:50,712
Adam is doing

390
00:14:52,259 --> 00:14:52,679
Adam: jazz hands.

391
00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:56,219
His brother, poor old Greg Han,
no one remembers him at all.

392
00:14:56,219 --> 00:14:56,339
Do they

393
00:14:56,989 --> 00:14:57,279
Helen: Nope.

394
00:14:57,284 --> 00:14:57,614
Still

395
00:14:57,869 --> 00:14:58,799
Adam: be for Chelsea And Fullham

396
00:14:58,813 --> 00:14:58,919
Ian: full.

397
00:14:59,114 --> 00:15:01,574
I would never have got Greg Hans

398
00:15:01,694 --> 00:15:01,964
from

399
00:15:01,994 --> 00:15:02,354
Helen: Jazz

400
00:15:02,354 --> 00:15:02,504
hands.

401
00:15:03,344 --> 00:15:06,164
I was thinking like, was there someone
who was in a cabaret at one point?

402
00:15:06,199 --> 00:15:06,399
Yeah,

403
00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:08,444
Andy: I was thinking he's the
Jazziest member of Theresa Mae's

404
00:15:08,774 --> 00:15:09,254
Helen: in the Dean.

405
00:15:09,254 --> 00:15:09,584
Doris.

406
00:15:09,584 --> 00:15:10,514
She seems like she might have done

407
00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:10,979
Adam: would be Penny

408
00:15:11,054 --> 00:15:11,144
Ian: jazz.

409
00:15:11,144 --> 00:15:14,444
if this section does actually
make it onto a visual one.

410
00:15:14,564 --> 00:15:15,554
Can I say this?

411
00:15:15,554 --> 00:15:16,694
That's the worst charades

412
00:15:17,114 --> 00:15:18,164
I've ever seen.

413
00:15:18,829 --> 00:15:21,284
Helen: Now do Greg, do the concept of

414
00:15:21,539 --> 00:15:21,989
Adam: Sounds

415
00:15:22,094 --> 00:15:22,214
Helen: like

416
00:15:22,544 --> 00:15:22,934
egg.

417
00:15:23,024 --> 00:15:23,294
Oh, that's

418
00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:23,599
Ian: very good.

419
00:15:23,744 --> 00:15:23,924
Yeah.

420
00:15:23,924 --> 00:15:24,464
no, we'd go

421
00:15:24,524 --> 00:15:25,274
Helen: Oh, we, could have done that.

422
00:15:25,364 --> 00:15:25,664
Yeah.

423
00:15:25,934 --> 00:15:26,234
Ian: okay.

424
00:15:26,234 --> 00:15:26,954
So he resigned on

425
00:15:27,479 --> 00:15:28,859
Adam: Yeah, he went ahead of the vote.

426
00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:29,459
And Boris.

427
00:15:29,459 --> 00:15:31,679
Boris Johnson just scuttled off
to Afghanistan giving rise to

428
00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:33,089
a memorable private eye cover.

429
00:15:33,089 --> 00:15:33,689
Can you remember?

430
00:15:34,094 --> 00:15:35,119
Ian: It was with a translator.

431
00:15:36,074 --> 00:15:36,464
And

432
00:15:36,464 --> 00:15:40,754
I think the joke was that it wasn't the
third runway, it was a turd runaway.

433
00:15:40,814 --> 00:15:41,354
Adam: That's the one,

434
00:15:41,684 --> 00:15:41,924
Andy: brilliant,

435
00:15:43,072 --> 00:15:44,384
Helen: It's in the
finest tradition of cat.

436
00:15:48,193 --> 00:15:52,884
Ian: can someone explain to me why,
this dramatic reshuffle in which,

437
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:57,220
Yvette Cooper, becomes foreign
secretary and David Lamie becomes,

438
00:15:57,474 --> 00:15:59,524
vice president or no, that's his

439
00:15:59,524 --> 00:15:59,944
friend.

440
00:16:00,664 --> 00:16:00,964
but

441
00:16:01,354 --> 00:16:02,399
is this going to help?

442
00:16:02,857 --> 00:16:03,847
Helen: it changes as good as a

443
00:16:03,893 --> 00:16:04,087
rest.

444
00:16:05,227 --> 00:16:05,527
Oh,

445
00:16:05,527 --> 00:16:08,017
I know the answer to this, which is
because if you, listen to the Key

446
00:16:08,017 --> 00:16:10,537
Star interview with Matt, Charlie,
this, we are now in phase two.

447
00:16:10,897 --> 00:16:13,057
This is it, phase two of
the Star of government.

448
00:16:13,447 --> 00:16:16,357
You may have not noticed the passage
of phase one, but that the idea is that

449
00:16:16,357 --> 00:16:21,115
basically they're now gonna try and put
people into, do things that people like.

450
00:16:21,535 --> 00:16:22,375
I, yeah, I know.

451
00:16:22,435 --> 00:16:23,125
I don't think it's gonna

452
00:16:23,162 --> 00:16:23,305
Adam: work

453
00:16:23,455 --> 00:16:26,215
If that was the plan for this to
be phase two though, I come back

454
00:16:26,215 --> 00:16:28,735
to again, that reshuffle that
they had a few days before it.

455
00:16:28,975 --> 00:16:32,695
Why didn't they do it then if this was the
grand plan all along to, to move everyone

456
00:16:32,775 --> 00:16:32,935
Helen: round

457
00:16:32,965 --> 00:16:36,115
My hunch is that they had all this ready
and they planted it after party conference

458
00:16:36,115 --> 00:16:38,305
because everyone will be preparing
their speeches to party conference.

459
00:16:38,305 --> 00:16:41,305
And now you've got a load of people just,
who are going to have to give the biggest

460
00:16:41,305 --> 00:16:42,865
speech of their life as a minister.

461
00:16:43,735 --> 00:16:46,645
and something they only
swatted up on 10 minutes ago.

462
00:16:46,645 --> 00:16:48,985
So I think this was all
like in the offering.

463
00:16:48,985 --> 00:16:52,165
And then in a way they decided to
take the advantage of the crisis

464
00:16:52,338 --> 00:16:56,523
Ian: In terms of resignations though,
A lot of the speculation before,

465
00:16:56,973 --> 00:17:00,954
he had to do another reshuffle was,
yes, the minister for paperclips had

466
00:17:00,954 --> 00:17:05,874
changed, but he'd put in all these
sort of very good, economically minded

467
00:17:05,874 --> 00:17:07,854
people to undermine Rachel Reeves.

468
00:17:07,914 --> 00:17:14,274
So there appeared to be some point to that
procedure and then suddenly we're told no.

469
00:17:14,274 --> 00:17:16,764
Yvette Cooper, who's being
just in the hope she's going

470
00:17:16,764 --> 00:17:18,264
to foreign affairs, is she.

471
00:17:18,744 --> 00:17:20,994
Helen: but I think that was a kind
of face saving thing because actually

472
00:17:20,994 --> 00:17:23,544
she was being moved out because they
never really got along with her.

473
00:17:23,907 --> 00:17:26,217
I think they followed the,
you can't say anything nice.

474
00:17:26,217 --> 00:17:26,757
Don't say anything

475
00:17:26,757 --> 00:17:26,877
at

476
00:17:27,011 --> 00:17:28,287
Adam: but it does seem an

477
00:17:28,287 --> 00:17:30,327
odd move then to put her in charge
of the foreign affairs of the

478
00:17:30,327 --> 00:17:31,287
entire country, doesn't

479
00:17:31,287 --> 00:17:31,347
it?

480
00:17:31,737 --> 00:17:33,207
that's, traditionally one of the big jobs,

481
00:17:33,207 --> 00:17:33,567
isn't it?

482
00:17:33,777 --> 00:17:34,677
Helen: It's not anymore though.

483
00:17:34,677 --> 00:17:35,937
'cause the Prime Minister just does it.

484
00:17:35,937 --> 00:17:38,727
Who flew over to the White House
to sort out the Ukraine situation

485
00:17:38,757 --> 00:17:40,047
and it was K Stama last week.

486
00:17:40,047 --> 00:17:40,647
That's the thing.

487
00:17:40,737 --> 00:17:44,217
And that's why David Lammy Hass got
DPM is so, that he, as you reference

488
00:17:44,217 --> 00:17:47,042
here, and he can continue his fishing
based bromance with, JD Vance.

489
00:17:47,547 --> 00:17:51,117
But basically she's got a kind of a
job that involves her going and shaking

490
00:17:51,117 --> 00:17:55,289
hands at boring summits and, not
really driving a department in the same

491
00:17:55,499 --> 00:17:58,379
Andy: It's not like it was on the good old
days when Liz Trus was foreign secretary

492
00:17:58,629 --> 00:17:59,589
, Helen: Think of those trade deals.

493
00:17:59,589 --> 00:18:00,789
Think of all those great trade deals we

494
00:18:00,789 --> 00:18:01,089
made.

495
00:18:03,700 --> 00:18:04,002
Andy: so

496
00:18:04,062 --> 00:18:06,642
Reform had their conference, they're
annual conference they had at the

497
00:18:06,642 --> 00:18:11,412
huge, Birmingham, NEC, massive
great conference center, very big.

498
00:18:11,412 --> 00:18:12,582
It all happened over the weekend.

499
00:18:13,572 --> 00:18:17,802
I'd just like to know from the three of
you where we are on the ancient timeline

500
00:18:17,802 --> 00:18:21,312
of first they ignore you, then they laugh
at you, then they fight you, then you win.

501
00:18:22,122 --> 00:18:24,372
'cause I think we've had the
ignoring and the laughing at

502
00:18:25,482 --> 00:18:25,602
Helen: I

503
00:18:25,602 --> 00:18:27,462
think the laughing act can
coexist with the winning.

504
00:18:27,462 --> 00:18:31,332
Unfortunately, that's what my mainly took
away from that conference is that, f has

505
00:18:31,332 --> 00:18:34,062
been spending a lot of time with Donald
Trump, and he's obviously learned a lot

506
00:18:34,062 --> 00:18:38,892
about the American right wing style, which
is campers absolute knickers, but also

507
00:18:39,072 --> 00:18:44,022
incredibly successful in electoral terms
and, enacting a lot of its policy agenda.

508
00:18:44,262 --> 00:18:47,427
So you get a situation in which, yes,
it is objectively very funny that Andrea

509
00:18:47,427 --> 00:18:51,162
Jenkins comes out in a catsuit and sings
a song that she has composed herself,

510
00:18:51,192 --> 00:18:54,642
which you'd normally think was the
attitude of a fringes to fringe parties.

511
00:18:55,062 --> 00:18:58,152
But it was a heavenly
professionalized conference.

512
00:18:58,482 --> 00:19:00,732
It really was, as you say, a big audience.

513
00:19:00,732 --> 00:19:04,782
Big attendance, loads of bodyguards
sweeping around the place, stalls,

514
00:19:04,782 --> 00:19:06,822
all the exhibitors things, all
the things you'd associate with a

515
00:19:06,822 --> 00:19:09,372
main party conference were there.

516
00:19:09,507 --> 00:19:12,177
Adam: And the fireworks, I saw a
quote from a reform member this

517
00:19:12,177 --> 00:19:13,437
morning saying, we had fireworks.

518
00:19:13,437 --> 00:19:16,107
You only see Labour or conservatives
having fireworks on stage, will

519
00:19:16,107 --> 00:19:16,287
you?

520
00:19:16,287 --> 00:19:17,247
And I thought, Oh good.

521
00:19:17,247 --> 00:19:17,817
Clearly you're ready

522
00:19:17,817 --> 00:19:17,907
for

523
00:19:17,949 --> 00:19:18,222
Andy: government.

524
00:19:18,237 --> 00:19:18,372
Adam: then.

525
00:19:18,822 --> 00:19:20,202
Helen: But that's what Trump has learned.

526
00:19:20,202 --> 00:19:23,622
Like those rallies are slightly
like WE cage matches, right?

527
00:19:23,622 --> 00:19:26,892
There's a whole, and there's all people
like dressed up in stuff and there's

528
00:19:26,892 --> 00:19:28,632
a whole kind of pageanty aspect to it.

529
00:19:28,932 --> 00:19:31,632
And I have to say, as someone who's
attended many party conferences, it's

530
00:19:31,632 --> 00:19:34,992
not unwelcome that someone might try
and make them slightly entertaining

531
00:19:35,022 --> 00:19:37,392
do you remember that Thereon May
speech where everything went wrong and

532
00:19:37,392 --> 00:19:39,732
the thing fell off the back and she
got the throat suite and the person

533
00:19:39,732 --> 00:19:42,732
got the P 45 reforms conference.

534
00:19:42,732 --> 00:19:46,422
Although it was objectively ulu in
some ways was a lot more professional.

535
00:19:46,812 --> 00:19:49,812
Than that Tory camp party conference
when they were in government.

536
00:19:50,112 --> 00:19:52,272
So I think you can over
egg the laughing at them.

537
00:19:52,362 --> 00:19:55,902
We might have to one day laugh at
them as they do stuff and they win.

538
00:19:56,817 --> 00:19:56,937
Adam: and

539
00:19:56,937 --> 00:19:59,967
they unveiled Nadine, Doris
as their secret weapon.

540
00:20:00,282 --> 00:20:04,782
Their new recruit architect of the
online safety bill, which they are now

541
00:20:04,782 --> 00:20:05,522
hugely against,

542
00:20:06,102 --> 00:20:08,112
Ian: but no one's interested
in consistency, Adam.

543
00:20:10,362 --> 00:20:13,403
RAs literally said, we're
gonna deport everybody.

544
00:20:13,433 --> 00:20:16,673
And someone said, you did say a few
months ago that wasn't possible.

545
00:20:16,733 --> 00:20:17,123
He said, no, I

546
00:20:17,123 --> 00:20:17,453
didn't.

547
00:20:17,458 --> 00:20:17,588
Helen: Mm

548
00:20:18,683 --> 00:20:19,343
Ian: and he did.

549
00:20:19,853 --> 00:20:21,653
he's literally there in
black and white in the last

550
00:20:21,653 --> 00:20:22,073
issue,

551
00:20:22,133 --> 00:20:22,673
Adam: as we said.

552
00:20:22,673 --> 00:20:23,663
The Trump playbook, isn't it?

553
00:20:23,663 --> 00:20:23,873
Yeah.

554
00:20:23,963 --> 00:20:24,498
You just go, fake

555
00:20:26,063 --> 00:20:28,223
Helen: But fess up Adam,
because you secretly love Nadine

556
00:20:28,223 --> 00:20:29,183
Doris and her column in the

557
00:20:29,183 --> 00:20:29,513
mail.

558
00:20:29,783 --> 00:20:31,493
Adam: she's a magnificent
daily male columnist.

559
00:20:31,493 --> 00:20:33,413
I'm not gonna knock her
abilities at that at all.

560
00:20:33,653 --> 00:20:36,233
what I was interested, the justification
for, bringing in, 'cause a few people

561
00:20:36,233 --> 00:20:38,453
are, there's some rumblings going on
in reform aren't there, about bringing

562
00:20:38,453 --> 00:20:40,463
in lots and lots of ex Tories when
supposedly they're saying they're

563
00:20:40,463 --> 00:20:41,783
useless and they're gonna replace them.

564
00:20:42,323 --> 00:20:44,663
the justification was that they actually
need people who've got experience

565
00:20:44,663 --> 00:20:45,923
in government and know how to do it.

566
00:20:46,628 --> 00:20:50,678
Which is an odd justification getting
Nadine Doris in 'cause she wasn't exactly

567
00:20:51,338 --> 00:20:52,808
the, sort of greatest performer in,

568
00:20:53,033 --> 00:20:53,273
Ian: in, and

569
00:20:53,273 --> 00:20:55,223
she wasn't home secretary as I remember.

570
00:20:55,643 --> 00:20:55,823
No.

571
00:20:55,823 --> 00:20:57,173
Or Chancellor.

572
00:20:57,173 --> 00:20:58,373
She was minister of culture.

573
00:20:58,523 --> 00:20:58,613
No.

574
00:20:58,613 --> 00:20:58,913
Was she

575
00:20:58,958 --> 00:20:59,138
Adam: No, not

576
00:20:59,318 --> 00:21:02,288
in, during which her big quest was
to privatize Channel four, something

577
00:21:02,288 --> 00:21:03,338
that was abandoned and hasn't

578
00:21:03,338 --> 00:21:03,633
happened.

579
00:21:03,893 --> 00:21:04,193
Ian: Yeah.

580
00:21:04,193 --> 00:21:04,433
And she

581
00:21:04,433 --> 00:21:06,263
didn't know the details
of who owned Channel

582
00:21:06,263 --> 00:21:06,593
four,

583
00:21:06,968 --> 00:21:07,148
Adam: which

584
00:21:07,148 --> 00:21:08,498
she may exactly all over her

585
00:21:08,498 --> 00:21:08,678
Andy: brain.

586
00:21:08,828 --> 00:21:09,243
Was she Okay.

587
00:21:09,248 --> 00:21:12,398
I thought she had already
gone to reform, so I

588
00:21:13,028 --> 00:21:13,718
dunno what they've, what's

589
00:21:13,823 --> 00:21:14,033
Ian: of the

590
00:21:14,033 --> 00:21:14,363
news,

591
00:21:14,544 --> 00:21:16,058
Adam: she definitely left the Torries.

592
00:21:16,058 --> 00:21:18,728
I mean she's written two entire
books, which poor old Helen has,

593
00:21:18,728 --> 00:21:22,568
read, about how awful the Tories
are and how they're being run by an

594
00:21:22,568 --> 00:21:24,908
unelected cabal of rabbit murderers.

595
00:21:25,444 --> 00:21:27,834
Helen: don't you think that Boris
Johnson at some point might go reform

596
00:21:27,834 --> 00:21:29,214
or try and go reform, which will be

597
00:21:29,478 --> 00:21:29,739
Adam: fascinating.

598
00:21:29,814 --> 00:21:31,554
Ian: but Ferras denied it today.

599
00:21:31,584 --> 00:21:33,684
Helen: but they's 'cause this town
ain't big enough for the both of us.

600
00:21:33,954 --> 00:21:35,544
that's the thing that's fascinating to me.

601
00:21:35,544 --> 00:21:38,604
If you're Boris Johnson knew still
harbor some hoax for comeback.

602
00:21:38,874 --> 00:21:41,094
You've just gotta think where,
could I just pop up back again?

603
00:21:41,094 --> 00:21:44,639
Where's what I just felt about
that reform conference is that the,

604
00:21:44,644 --> 00:21:46,134
political momentum is all with them.

605
00:21:46,164 --> 00:21:48,504
So they've now got a, Daily
Mail columnist on their side.

606
00:21:48,504 --> 00:21:49,764
They've got GB news on their side.

607
00:21:49,764 --> 00:21:52,254
They've got the telegraph on
their side for their voting base.

608
00:21:52,254 --> 00:21:54,114
Those are the places that you would want.

609
00:21:54,474 --> 00:21:57,474
Who still likes the Tory party brand?

610
00:21:57,474 --> 00:21:58,374
Absolutely

611
00:21:58,659 --> 00:21:59,199
Adam: terrifying.

612
00:21:59,739 --> 00:22:00,369
Terrify Vine.

613
00:22:00,969 --> 00:22:04,509
Paige in the mail on Sunday saying,
although I deeply respect Nadine in

614
00:22:04,509 --> 00:22:07,509
that way, that all daily male economists
actually absolutely, definitely do.

615
00:22:07,539 --> 00:22:08,319
'cause they're all best friends.

616
00:22:08,829 --> 00:22:10,749
she said she thinks she's wrong
about this and the conservative

617
00:22:10,749 --> 00:22:11,919
party still has some life in it.

618
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:15,879
And Canmy beg knock is, is a
marvelous she will be sticking

619
00:22:15,879 --> 00:22:17,889
with the party of the man.

620
00:22:17,889 --> 00:22:17,974
She

621
00:22:19,014 --> 00:22:21,474
Helen: Someone wants a peer ridge from
the Tory party, is what I'm hearing there.

622
00:22:21,699 --> 00:22:23,139
Ian: well, like Nadine.

623
00:22:24,339 --> 00:22:26,739
Andy: But the aim, is, as far
as I understand it, of the

624
00:22:26,829 --> 00:22:30,759
conference this weekend was to
show firstly that it's inevitable.

625
00:22:31,149 --> 00:22:32,079
This is just going to

626
00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:32,589
happen.

627
00:22:32,619 --> 00:22:32,709
Yeah.

628
00:22:33,009 --> 00:22:33,159
To

629
00:22:33,159 --> 00:22:33,339
get

630
00:22:33,339 --> 00:22:33,549
used

631
00:22:33,549 --> 00:22:33,759
to it.

632
00:22:33,764 --> 00:22:33,984
but fight

633
00:22:33,984 --> 00:22:34,104
it.

634
00:22:34,269 --> 00:22:34,599
Maybe

635
00:22:34,599 --> 00:22:35,379
in two years.

636
00:22:35,409 --> 00:22:36,039
Maybe in two years.

637
00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:38,289
If there's an election for no reason,
that I can fathom there will be.

638
00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:38,709
Okay.

639
00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:41,859
And the other was to show that this is
no longer the Nigel show and we've got

640
00:22:41,859 --> 00:22:43,629
lots of talent waiting in the wings.

641
00:22:43,629 --> 00:22:48,482
And this is a party you can see
putting in a cabinet of 20, mps.

642
00:22:48,647 --> 00:22:49,907
Helen: 20 human beings.

643
00:22:49,907 --> 00:22:50,267
Real

644
00:22:50,267 --> 00:22:50,597
human

645
00:22:50,597 --> 00:22:50,897
beings.

646
00:22:50,902 --> 00:22:51,062
Yeah.

647
00:22:51,347 --> 00:22:51,467
Yeah.

648
00:22:51,467 --> 00:22:52,517
The second one is a lie though.

649
00:22:52,517 --> 00:22:53,337
It is still the Nigel show.

650
00:22:53,572 --> 00:22:56,477
It's always this is, I mean it's not, no.

651
00:22:56,777 --> 00:22:59,627
Basically that party does well when
it's got Nigel Farage, it's front man

652
00:22:59,627 --> 00:23:01,307
and doesn't when it, when it hasn't.

653
00:23:01,697 --> 00:23:04,637
And I don't really see that's changed
just 'cause Anne Whitaker is now sitting

654
00:23:04,637 --> 00:23:06,167
in a big hall rather than a small hall.

655
00:23:06,797 --> 00:23:08,477
Ian: Adam's earlier point is right.

656
00:23:08,687 --> 00:23:13,547
when confronted by some anomaly between
spending and tax that someone had

657
00:23:13,547 --> 00:23:18,218
turned up in the list of, wishes on the
back of a fag packet, which Nigel have

658
00:23:18,218 --> 00:23:19,028
presented as some

659
00:23:19,028 --> 00:23:19,988
sort of agenda.

660
00:23:20,408 --> 00:23:22,988
he was questioned about and he
said, I can't answer that now.

661
00:23:22,988 --> 00:23:26,258
We haven't got the senior people
with experience in, but we will have.

662
00:23:26,498 --> 00:23:29,798
And then the first person with
senior experience is Nadine.

663
00:23:29,798 --> 00:23:30,218
Doris.

664
00:23:30,218 --> 00:23:32,078
I mean that, that's not a big

665
00:23:32,078 --> 00:23:32,528
hitter.

666
00:23:32,678 --> 00:23:35,048
Adam: don't forget they've got your mate
Jake Berry in there as well, haven't they?

667
00:23:35,138 --> 00:23:35,408
Yeah.

668
00:23:35,828 --> 00:23:36,278
Yeah.

669
00:23:36,458 --> 00:23:38,313
You famously had a bit of
a run in with, didn't you?

670
00:23:38,314 --> 00:23:38,324
I

671
00:23:38,708 --> 00:23:39,368
Ian: I did,

672
00:23:39,368 --> 00:23:40,778
I had a bit of a shout up.

673
00:23:42,063 --> 00:23:42,248
Adam: okay.

674
00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:42,913
in,

675
00:23:44,078 --> 00:23:45,668
this is the creme de la creme, isn't it?

676
00:23:45,758 --> 00:23:47,258
This is the real top Tories of the

677
00:23:47,258 --> 00:23:47,618
last,

678
00:23:48,128 --> 00:23:48,668
Ian: listeners.

679
00:23:49,118 --> 00:23:54,158
I, confess, I had an argument with him
about, the re remuneration for the post

680
00:23:54,158 --> 00:23:59,108
office scandal victims, which
I wasn't terribly, temperate

681
00:23:59,343 --> 00:23:59,498
Helen: about.

682
00:23:59,648 --> 00:24:01,478
you can continue that
when he is in government.

683
00:24:01,478 --> 00:24:04,028
That'll be another select committee
appearance to look forward to

684
00:24:04,158 --> 00:24:07,068
As for the inevitability, I think it's
one that's worth taking seriously,

685
00:24:07,068 --> 00:24:09,558
because they are high in the polls.

686
00:24:09,558 --> 00:24:12,588
The thing about is some first pass
the post who we always say this

687
00:24:12,588 --> 00:24:14,208
notoriously hostile to new entrants.

688
00:24:14,568 --> 00:24:16,548
The mountain they have to
climb is absolutely incredible.

689
00:24:16,548 --> 00:24:20,858
Can they do that in one electoral
cycle when, Nigel Farage's,

690
00:24:21,668 --> 00:24:23,138
it's so dependent on him.

691
00:24:23,858 --> 00:24:27,938
Or can you see Nigel Farage sticking with
this as a 10 year project and building

692
00:24:27,938 --> 00:24:29,318
that momentum through the next parliament?

693
00:24:29,528 --> 00:24:31,718
That to me is the kind of,
don't get ahead of yourself.

694
00:24:32,018 --> 00:24:33,818
Bit of, a bit of this piece.

695
00:24:33,893 --> 00:24:35,513
Adam: That to me seems the
biggest hurdle they've got.

696
00:24:35,513 --> 00:24:37,673
It's not just that they've gotta
get 20 people in who could sit in a

697
00:24:37,673 --> 00:24:38,843
cabinet and know what they're doing.

698
00:24:39,113 --> 00:24:42,353
They've also gotta get at
least 320 electable people in

699
00:24:42,353 --> 00:24:44,753
different constituencies around
the country to get that majority.

700
00:24:44,753 --> 00:24:50,173
And given, as we've been noting in both
rotten boroughs and HP pages of private,

701
00:24:50,173 --> 00:24:54,223
I recent weeks, the record of the people
who did get elected on that wave in the

702
00:24:54,223 --> 00:24:56,023
local elections and what's happened since.

703
00:24:56,023 --> 00:24:58,513
And the number of them that have
had to resign or have been caught

704
00:24:58,513 --> 00:25:03,463
up in really quite extreme kind
of cases of racism recorded in

705
00:25:03,463 --> 00:25:05,053
the last issue and, other things.

706
00:25:05,333 --> 00:25:08,603
That seems to be a big insurmountable
hill that no amount of fireworks and opera

707
00:25:08,603 --> 00:25:11,453
singing, ex Tories is gonna, surmount

708
00:25:11,515 --> 00:25:11,815
Ian: some

709
00:25:11,815 --> 00:25:13,015
of the people in the local councils.

710
00:25:13,015 --> 00:25:16,525
It's just boils down to they
can't be bothered to do the job,

711
00:25:16,525 --> 00:25:18,925
didn't think they were going to
elect and don't want to very much.

712
00:25:19,105 --> 00:25:22,560
And that is the other problem about
government is it's quite boring.

713
00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:26,725
and reform will have to
learn how to do the boring

714
00:25:26,725 --> 00:25:27,115
bits.

715
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,470
Andy: that was one of the other
pieces on the roundup page in HP

716
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:36,065
last issue was they've, I believe,
loosened their vetting criteria.

717
00:25:36,260 --> 00:25:38,840
Which for a party that's had
as many problems with vetting,

718
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,685
you would think might be quite,
Why am I being so diplomatic?

719
00:25:44,915 --> 00:25:45,335
Adam: that's

720
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:45,890
Ian: no, you've gone

721
00:25:45,905 --> 00:25:46,150
Andy: No, you've done all

722
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:47,350
but they've gone bananas.

723
00:25:47,950 --> 00:25:50,230
if they're genuinely loosening the
criteria, they said, they wrote it

724
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:54,190
to their members saying, look, if you
got rejected last time, have another,

725
00:25:54,309 --> 00:25:54,415
Adam: pop.

726
00:25:54,415 --> 00:25:54,535
But

727
00:25:54,535 --> 00:25:58,255
I think that's genuine fear that they
need 650 warm bodies and you're gonna

728
00:25:58,255 --> 00:26:01,705
have to take in the fruitcakes and loonies
and closet racists and not so closet

729
00:26:01,705 --> 00:26:03,865
racists just to have bums on seats.

730
00:26:04,450 --> 00:26:04,600
Helen: Why?

731
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,480
I just think that the obvious play
for the is to try and eat alive

732
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,090
the remnants of the Tory party with
all its institutional machinery.

733
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,640
'cause the Torry party has got,
lots of people with huge amounts of

734
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,110
experience of running associations.

735
00:26:14,110 --> 00:26:16,900
But a dwindling membership reform has
got a growing membership, but almost

736
00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:18,880
no institutional campaigning memory.

737
00:26:19,390 --> 00:26:22,510
And, fair enough, like Nigel Friday is
very good at things like TikTok, but you

738
00:26:22,510 --> 00:26:26,230
do still need stuff like boring stuff like
contact sheets, to find out who you've

739
00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:29,290
been around, who you like to go knocking
up doors, all of that kind of stuff still

740
00:26:29,290 --> 00:26:32,298
does actually matter in closely for seats.

741
00:26:32,426 --> 00:26:34,946
Ian: as soon as you get in, you have
that moment, which they're finding

742
00:26:34,946 --> 00:26:40,331
in the council is saying, , what is
your, policy on special needs potholes?

743
00:26:41,501 --> 00:26:41,561
yeah.

744
00:26:41,621 --> 00:26:42,341
Libraries.

745
00:26:42,851 --> 00:26:43,841
we're gonna stop the boats.

746
00:26:44,381 --> 00:26:44,741
Yep.

747
00:26:45,101 --> 00:26:46,061
And after that,

748
00:26:46,165 --> 00:26:46,375
Helen: yeah.

749
00:26:46,375 --> 00:26:46,465
And

750
00:26:46,465 --> 00:26:48,265
that matters more in a national election.

751
00:26:48,265 --> 00:26:50,275
'cause local elections are often
like, do you hate the government?

752
00:26:50,275 --> 00:26:50,545
Yes.

753
00:26:50,545 --> 00:26:50,845
No.

754
00:26:51,265 --> 00:26:54,805
Whereas, it's going to be, do
you think this reform MP is gonna

755
00:26:54,805 --> 00:26:55,675
be good for your constituency?

756
00:26:55,675 --> 00:26:57,775
Is are they actually gonna turn up to

757
00:26:57,974 --> 00:26:58,225
Ian: Westminster?

758
00:26:58,345 --> 00:26:59,455
can I ask a question then?

759
00:26:59,515 --> 00:27:05,845
Is it a mistake for the lead party to
be so furiously obsessed by Farage in

760
00:27:05,845 --> 00:27:07,465
the same, is it a mistake for private

761
00:27:07,465 --> 00:27:07,645
eye to vote

762
00:27:08,605 --> 00:27:10,105
any further coverage to fraud?

763
00:27:10,345 --> 00:27:11,925
Is this helping him out?

764
00:27:13,525 --> 00:27:16,075
Helen: It's a very good question is why
are we playing all of British politics

765
00:27:16,075 --> 00:27:17,665
on the terrain that he has decided?

766
00:27:18,175 --> 00:27:21,325
I don't, immigration is obviously
come, something that comes up again and

767
00:27:21,325 --> 00:27:23,875
again, but people also really worried
about the economy, really worried

768
00:27:23,875 --> 00:27:25,435
about the NHS and public services.

769
00:27:25,915 --> 00:27:29,365
I think the reason that Labour are being
lured onto this is that they don't have

770
00:27:29,365 --> 00:27:32,215
a great story themselves to tell about
the things they'd like to talk about.

771
00:27:32,575 --> 00:27:36,325
And their devout hope is that
in three years time, they will

772
00:27:36,325 --> 00:27:37,765
be able to say, stick with us.

773
00:27:37,765 --> 00:27:38,905
We're halfway through this plan.

774
00:27:38,905 --> 00:27:41,845
And you'll begin to see signs of
it happening, but they don't really

775
00:27:41,845 --> 00:27:43,615
think there's anything they can
point to at the moment to make.

776
00:27:44,095 --> 00:27:44,665
That case.

777
00:27:44,665 --> 00:27:46,405
And they, therefore they
just keep being dragged.

778
00:27:46,705 --> 00:27:49,585
And again, I say as a media environment
that follows the right wing papers

779
00:27:49,585 --> 00:27:51,205
and the BBC follows that bulletin.

780
00:27:51,295 --> 00:27:52,585
And you always end up with that.

781
00:27:53,605 --> 00:27:55,555
we had a new, green leader.

782
00:27:55,735 --> 00:27:59,095
No one gives a toss even though
they've got a similar number of mps.

783
00:27:59,125 --> 00:28:01,945
And actually there's lots of
people who are disillusioned with

784
00:28:01,945 --> 00:28:04,755
Labour from the left and  be easily
peeled away to a different party.

785
00:28:05,415 --> 00:28:07,795
Ian: And, the backstory of both
the new green leader and the

786
00:28:07,795 --> 00:28:10,915
deputy are wow, are pretty fruity.

787
00:28:12,145 --> 00:28:14,065
at least as good as the
stories about reform.

788
00:28:14,065 --> 00:28:14,745
But no one cares.

789
00:28:15,115 --> 00:28:18,235
Andy: but I think we are slightly
disregarding the extent of the talent,

790
00:28:18,235 --> 00:28:20,005
which reform does have at its disposal.

791
00:28:20,005 --> 00:28:23,635
So I, for example, vi count,
Christopher Moncton, I'm sure

792
00:28:23,635 --> 00:28:24,565
you're all familiar with him.

793
00:28:26,027 --> 00:28:28,060
Adam: once wrote to private eye
to deny that he had a pointy

794
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:28,720
head, and that was

795
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:29,130
Helen: wore

796
00:28:29,150 --> 00:28:29,370
all

797
00:28:29,410 --> 00:28:29,710
Adam: hat.

798
00:28:30,715 --> 00:28:31,345
Andy: interesting.

799
00:28:31,555 --> 00:28:35,005
a few years ago he, he made a speech
where he, warned that homosexuality is

800
00:28:35,125 --> 00:28:39,505
one of the four sins crying out to heaven
for vengeance in traditional theology.

801
00:28:39,715 --> 00:28:39,985
He had

802
00:28:39,985 --> 00:28:40,585
it, he's doing it wrong.

803
00:28:41,845 --> 00:28:42,085
Helen: I'm

804
00:28:42,085 --> 00:28:42,355
so

805
00:28:42,715 --> 00:28:43,255
wanna know what the

806
00:28:43,285 --> 00:28:44,875
other three are, but we'll
have to come back to that.

807
00:28:44,875 --> 00:28:44,905
Okay.

808
00:28:45,355 --> 00:28:48,655
Andy: he also called for cigarette style
warnings about the dangers of being gay.

809
00:28:49,375 --> 00:28:49,645
Helen: what

810
00:28:49,645 --> 00:28:49,735
gay

811
00:28:49,735 --> 00:28:49,885
people,

812
00:28:50,065 --> 00:28:50,345
Adam: people.

813
00:28:52,005 --> 00:28:52,225
He

814
00:28:52,390 --> 00:28:53,710
Andy: say what you put the warnings on.

815
00:28:53,710 --> 00:28:54,520
No, you're right.

816
00:28:54,730 --> 00:28:56,125
I Where would you put the warnings?

817
00:28:57,125 --> 00:28:57,345
the

818
00:28:57,345 --> 00:28:57,425
front.

819
00:28:57,730 --> 00:28:58,300
Adam: You wouldn't be able to,

820
00:28:58,300 --> 00:28:58,840
Yeah.

821
00:28:58,840 --> 00:28:58,850
Yeah.

822
00:28:58,850 --> 00:28:59,290
Just Plain

823
00:28:59,290 --> 00:29:00,700
packaging and a big,

824
00:29:00,865 --> 00:29:01,975
Helen: I know that instead of Yeah.

825
00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:04,645
No, in photo disease, like
some people doing YMCA or just

826
00:29:04,645 --> 00:29:05,935
having like a fabulous talk.

827
00:29:07,090 --> 00:29:07,420
Andy: Okay.

828
00:29:07,660 --> 00:29:07,840
there.

829
00:29:07,870 --> 00:29:11,560
What about Asim Malhotra advisor
to the US Health Secretary?

830
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:12,130
No less?

831
00:29:12,430 --> 00:29:12,520
Yes.

832
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,430
Who made the very sensible point that
maybe the royal family got cancer because

833
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:19,780
they'd taken their COVID jabs and that,
it's all Bill Gates' fault and that the

834
00:29:19,780 --> 00:29:21,610
COVID vaccine is more harmful than COVID?

835
00:29:21,716 --> 00:29:24,494
Ian: Dr. Hammond who is
also a doctor, but I would

836
00:29:24,494 --> 00:29:28,784
suggest one that it might be worth
listening to slightly more of seriously.

837
00:29:28,784 --> 00:29:32,264
He will be addressing the subject
of reform's, new brilliant

838
00:29:32,264 --> 00:29:33,374
medical experts.

839
00:29:33,554 --> 00:29:34,544
Adam: And that was a great moment

840
00:29:34,544 --> 00:29:35,894
of, for Artism as well, wasn't it?

841
00:29:35,894 --> 00:29:38,144
Because afterwards he said, he
was just a guest at the conference

842
00:29:38,144 --> 00:29:40,604
that was a, and actually he'd been
introduced as the man who was helping

843
00:29:40,604 --> 00:29:42,764
to draft reforms health policies.

844
00:29:43,004 --> 00:29:43,964
Slightly awkward.

845
00:29:43,979 --> 00:29:44,189
Andy: Yes.

846
00:29:44,189 --> 00:29:47,309
Reform said they don't endorse what
he said, but they do believe in free

847
00:29:47,478 --> 00:29:47,684
Adam: speech.

848
00:29:47,714 --> 00:29:49,604
And to be fair, he's not the only
one working on the health policies.

849
00:29:49,604 --> 00:29:51,254
'cause there's also Dr. David
Boulogne, who is the guy

850
00:29:51,254 --> 00:29:52,274
that was strangled by Ghost.

851
00:29:52,334 --> 00:29:54,524
So you know, that said he'll be bringing

852
00:29:54,524 --> 00:29:54,614
the

853
00:29:54,685 --> 00:29:55,019
Andy: censor and he

854
00:29:55,094 --> 00:29:57,554
Ian: And he followed
Lucy Connolly, is that

855
00:29:57,554 --> 00:29:58,064
right?

856
00:29:58,094 --> 00:29:58,634
Adam: Yes.

857
00:29:58,634 --> 00:29:58,874
Yeah.

858
00:29:58,874 --> 00:30:02,264
The convicted criminal who had, who
pleaded guilty to inciting racial hatred,

859
00:30:02,564 --> 00:30:05,489
Ian: and she's helping them
with their justice policies.

860
00:30:05,654 --> 00:30:05,774
Adam: Oh

861
00:30:06,254 --> 00:30:06,494
Andy: yes,

862
00:30:06,494 --> 00:30:10,255
Her policy is, released prisoners,
particularly women prisoners.

863
00:30:10,765 --> 00:30:11,035
which,

864
00:30:11,035 --> 00:30:11,425
and you can

865
00:30:11,425 --> 00:30:11,815
make quite a

866
00:30:12,025 --> 00:30:12,085
Helen: of

867
00:30:12,085 --> 00:30:13,525
Adam: that's a very sensible policy.

868
00:30:13,525 --> 00:30:13,585
Ian: you

869
00:30:14,125 --> 00:30:14,455
Andy: Can make,

870
00:30:14,455 --> 00:30:15,505
a good case for lots of that.

871
00:30:15,505 --> 00:30:17,335
But it does, slightly clash with

872
00:30:17,485 --> 00:30:19,015
Adam: I think you'd probably
find some other people to make

873
00:30:19,015 --> 00:30:19,765
that point though, couldn't

874
00:30:19,765 --> 00:30:19,880
you?

875
00:30:22,422 --> 00:30:26,472
Andy: Now we swivel inevitably towards
Free Speech Corner, which is a section

876
00:30:26,472 --> 00:30:29,412
of the podcast that we've been running
on and off, not under that name, but,

877
00:30:29,622 --> 00:30:31,362
we covered Palestine action recently.

878
00:30:31,422 --> 00:30:31,542
Yeah.

879
00:30:31,866 --> 00:30:35,163
and, John Farley, I reader, who
was arrested after after foolishly

880
00:30:35,163 --> 00:30:36,213
taking a private eye joke to a

881
00:30:36,213 --> 00:30:36,723
protest.

882
00:30:36,798 --> 00:30:37,708
Ian: Your joke.

883
00:30:37,983 --> 00:30:38,613
Andy: Yeah.

884
00:30:39,820 --> 00:30:42,070
so now we come to Graham Linehan.

885
00:30:42,220 --> 00:30:42,400
Yes.

886
00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:44,890
Now, and I, and we should say
there is a trial on at the moment.

887
00:30:44,890 --> 00:30:46,720
Helen: no, we have to be
circumscribed in what we can say,

888
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,760
but there are two different cases
that are being discussed here.

889
00:30:48,827 --> 00:30:50,102
Andy: can you just say who Graham Linehan

890
00:30:50,211 --> 00:30:52,547
Helen: Gremlin is a comedy
writer best named for things

891
00:30:52,547 --> 00:30:54,017
like Father Ted and Black Books.

892
00:30:54,017 --> 00:30:58,007
And in recent years, a very prolific
tweeter and gender critical campaigner.

893
00:30:58,367 --> 00:31:01,367
Now, he arrived in Britain from Arizona
where he's been living, working on a

894
00:31:01,367 --> 00:31:05,833
new sitcom and was arrested by five
armed police, with the explanation being

895
00:31:05,833 --> 00:31:07,543
that all police at Heathrow were armed.

896
00:31:07,543 --> 00:31:08,293
And there were lots of them.

897
00:31:08,293 --> 00:31:10,003
They didn't really have a lot
to do, so they, a couple of them

898
00:31:10,003 --> 00:31:11,113
just wing maned it and turned up.

899
00:31:11,113 --> 00:31:14,563
Anyway, this wasn't a totalitarian
show of force according to police,

900
00:31:14,773 --> 00:31:17,113
but these were for, they didn't tell
him exactly what it was for, but they

901
00:31:17,113 --> 00:31:19,393
said it's from some of your tweets
on this particular date in April.

902
00:31:19,423 --> 00:31:20,623
And he went back and looked at those.

903
00:31:20,683 --> 00:31:24,193
And essentially it seems to have been,
if you see a trans identified man, that's

904
00:31:24,193 --> 00:31:27,673
what he would call a trans woman in a
women's bathroom, punch em in the balls.

905
00:31:28,288 --> 00:31:31,678
And this is being apparently treated
by the police as incitement to

906
00:31:31,678 --> 00:31:33,628
violence against a protected group.

907
00:31:34,288 --> 00:31:38,128
Now he was in town anyway in
order to, as you say, attend.

908
00:31:38,428 --> 00:31:41,608
he's a defendant in a different trial
of a harassment trial that is related

909
00:31:41,608 --> 00:31:44,278
to a charge of, he grabbed someone's
phone up their hand and threw on the

910
00:31:44,308 --> 00:31:47,698
road and had called them a scumbag and
various other things that's ongoing.

911
00:31:47,698 --> 00:31:48,388
And we won't hear back

912
00:31:48,456 --> 00:31:48,613
Andy: until

913
00:31:48,613 --> 00:31:50,088
he's a shouting match for
the trans woman on the road.

914
00:31:50,088 --> 00:31:50,288
And

915
00:31:50,288 --> 00:31:50,448
that

916
00:31:50,758 --> 00:31:52,558
Helen: yeah, there was a teenage
transgender activist with

917
00:31:52,558 --> 00:31:53,548
whom he had an altercation.

918
00:31:53,998 --> 00:31:57,148
let's put that one, aside from
it 'cause that is ongoing, but no

919
00:31:57,238 --> 00:31:58,888
until at least October about that.

920
00:31:59,308 --> 00:32:02,818
But I do think that arrest for
those tweets is symptomatic of

921
00:32:02,818 --> 00:32:05,938
something that the police have gotten
themselves dragged into, which is.

922
00:32:06,613 --> 00:32:11,563
Basically trying to adjudicate on
extremely fine lines of things that

923
00:32:11,563 --> 00:32:14,683
are now, quote unquote hate speech or
harassment or whatever it might be.

924
00:32:15,523 --> 00:32:19,243
and, just work that they are ill-equipped
for, and they are overwhelmed by.

925
00:32:19,273 --> 00:32:21,703
So I went and looked up the figures,
hate speech reports, England and

926
00:32:21,703 --> 00:32:27,823
Wales, 20 13, 40 1000 of them by
2023 that had gone up to 145,000.

927
00:32:27,823 --> 00:32:28,573
So it's tripled.

928
00:32:29,123 --> 00:32:31,612
the guy who's the head of the
police officer association

929
00:32:31,612 --> 00:32:32,572
said, we just can't cope.

930
00:32:32,577 --> 00:32:32,907
We're just swamp.

931
00:32:33,267 --> 00:32:34,887
Perhaps swamped in the first.

932
00:32:34,887 --> 00:32:37,527
There was a report in the first couple
of months that came in that neo-Nazis

933
00:32:37,527 --> 00:32:39,357
were making vexatious complaints, right?

934
00:32:39,627 --> 00:32:43,347
It's just a system that is set
up for people who are either

935
00:32:43,347 --> 00:32:47,187
motivated by whatever reason or
not, or having an online barney to

936
00:32:47,187 --> 00:32:48,687
try and get the police involved.

937
00:32:48,687 --> 00:32:51,477
And it's, puts 'em in exactly the
same difficult situation as their

938
00:32:51,477 --> 00:32:56,517
policing a protest, which is they're
trying to pass what words mean in

939
00:32:56,517 --> 00:32:58,697
very contextual, febrile situations.

940
00:32:58,837 --> 00:32:59,077
Ian: Like

941
00:32:59,282 --> 00:32:59,402
I,

942
00:32:59,527 --> 00:33:03,637
I did feel that having complained about,
someone holding up a private eye joke

943
00:33:03,637 --> 00:33:07,951
and get arrested, the fact that Graham
Linehan had made a joke is a joke.

944
00:33:08,158 --> 00:33:12,545
and was arrested, by armed police
officers when he touched, and that is

945
00:33:12,545 --> 00:33:14,825
outrageous and that is police overreach.

946
00:33:14,825 --> 00:33:18,965
And Gremlin doesn't like me
at all and feels I've failed

947
00:33:18,965 --> 00:33:20,495
him in any number of ways.

948
00:33:20,645 --> 00:33:24,769
But, on this occasion, it
did seem a Voltaire moment.

949
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:30,513
, I find the whole, grotesquely rude
and toxic, shouting matches between,

950
00:33:31,053 --> 00:33:35,433
the various extremes on this hideous,
but these are not arrestable offenses.

951
00:33:36,213 --> 00:33:40,524
and when, the senior police officer
says, we are obliged to do this.

952
00:33:41,209 --> 00:33:43,099
We all know this isn't true.

953
00:33:43,525 --> 00:33:46,795
we all know that this can't
be true because when we report

954
00:33:46,855 --> 00:33:50,425
other offenses, they don't feel
obliged to do anything at all.

955
00:33:50,635 --> 00:33:53,275
And this involves nearly all
crimes that I can think of.

956
00:33:53,425 --> 00:33:53,485
Yeah.

957
00:33:54,085 --> 00:33:55,555
Helen: this West Treatings line.

958
00:33:56,462 --> 00:33:58,080
Ian: it is a reasonable point to make.

959
00:33:58,110 --> 00:34:01,888
A is, the police shouldn't be
there, to adjudicate in what

960
00:34:01,888 --> 00:34:04,138
seems to be a, an online spat.

961
00:34:04,425 --> 00:34:06,771
and B, they should be
doing something else.

962
00:34:07,221 --> 00:34:09,341
I don't think either of those
points are terribly contentious.

963
00:34:09,554 --> 00:34:10,454
Andy: if you're saying.

964
00:34:10,919 --> 00:34:14,459
If you see a member of a protected
group in a, in this environment,

965
00:34:14,459 --> 00:34:16,861
punch them in the balls, isn't
that incitement to violence?

966
00:34:16,992 --> 00:34:18,942
Helen: The thing is, it's a
deeply hypothetical situation.

967
00:34:18,942 --> 00:34:19,962
There's not a named person.

968
00:34:19,962 --> 00:34:23,562
It's not go around ex's house at whatever
wire dress and punched him in the face.

969
00:34:24,012 --> 00:34:26,772
And we know that there's case law
precedent on this because there was a

970
00:34:26,772 --> 00:34:30,732
hearing for a trans activist called Sarai,
Jane Baker, who was out on license for

971
00:34:30,732 --> 00:34:34,542
attempted murder at the time, who gave
a speech, at a protest who said, if you

972
00:34:34,542 --> 00:34:38,052
see a turf, a trans exclusionary, radical
feminist, punch 'em in the fucking face.

973
00:34:38,537 --> 00:34:39,827
And this went to magistrate's court.

974
00:34:39,827 --> 00:34:42,557
And the magistrate court said, no,
you didn't seriously mean this.

975
00:34:42,557 --> 00:34:43,907
You were just seeking publicity.

976
00:34:43,907 --> 00:34:45,137
Which I think comes back to Ian's point.

977
00:34:45,137 --> 00:34:46,907
Everybody involved in
this is seeking publicity.

978
00:34:47,627 --> 00:34:49,367
It's not a serious threat, not guilty.

979
00:34:49,757 --> 00:34:52,577
And I think with that precedent in
hand, you would say, what are the

980
00:34:52,577 --> 00:34:56,267
realistic chances of prosecuting
someone, airing a general belief that

981
00:34:56,267 --> 00:34:59,897
people who in their sense are doing
a bad thing should be punched for it.

982
00:35:00,197 --> 00:35:02,687
It just doesn't seem very likely
to lead to a to prosecution.

983
00:35:02,687 --> 00:35:05,448
And the problem is that it leads
to these accusations of two tier

984
00:35:05,448 --> 00:35:08,118
justice, that different favored
groups are treated differently.

985
00:35:08,178 --> 00:35:11,238
And also the thing that we're treating
said, which is the police should be out

986
00:35:11,808 --> 00:35:13,728
policing the streets, not policing tweets

987
00:35:14,248 --> 00:35:14,488
Andy: and.

988
00:35:15,628 --> 00:35:16,168
which rhymes.

989
00:35:16,168 --> 00:35:16,678
So it must

990
00:35:16,678 --> 00:35:16,798
be

991
00:35:16,910 --> 00:35:17,063
Helen: true,

992
00:35:17,093 --> 00:35:17,483
very

993
00:35:17,483 --> 00:35:20,333
corny, but I think it speaks to, as
you say, what everybody thinks is,

994
00:35:20,333 --> 00:35:23,033
I saw that arrest and I thought,
have you solved every murder?

995
00:35:23,033 --> 00:35:24,593
Have you solved every bike theft?

996
00:35:24,983 --> 00:35:25,253
At this

997
00:35:25,258 --> 00:35:27,358
Adam: But there is also this
very simplistic kind of argument

998
00:35:27,358 --> 00:35:29,698
that's being put, that anything
that's said online doesn't count.

999
00:35:30,058 --> 00:35:35,248
And actually, there are people, in
naming no names, who are running very,

1000
00:35:35,248 --> 00:35:40,828
vicious campaigns online against specific
people and targeting them and, making

1001
00:35:41,008 --> 00:35:44,368
what, could well be considered to be
things beyond the criminal threshold.

1002
00:35:44,368 --> 00:35:46,078
So this idea that somehow.

1003
00:35:46,285 --> 00:35:46,615
Putting

1004
00:35:46,615 --> 00:35:49,615
something on Twitter is different
to shouting it in someone's face.

1005
00:35:49,855 --> 00:35:51,295
I is not always the case.

1006
00:35:51,445 --> 00:35:53,185
these are, there are nuances in all these

1007
00:35:53,185 --> 00:35:53,395
things,

1008
00:35:53,410 --> 00:35:53,770
Andy: We have

1009
00:35:53,770 --> 00:35:57,220
to, we've already mentioned Lucy Connolly,
this, we've mentioned Lucy Connolly, this

1010
00:35:57,220 --> 00:36:01,630
episode who's, who got sent to 31 months
for saying, set fire to asylum hotels.

1011
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,163
Was that general,

1012
00:36:03,358 --> 00:36:04,648
Ian: not a specific person.

1013
00:36:04,783 --> 00:36:05,773
Andy: a specific person.

1014
00:36:06,043 --> 00:36:08,113
Helen: In her case, the VECA
sentence is because she pleaded

1015
00:36:08,113 --> 00:36:10,663
guilty and also because it
happened at the time of the riot.

1016
00:36:10,663 --> 00:36:11,353
So that's the thing.

1017
00:36:11,353 --> 00:36:14,203
If you're saying it in this general
context of things being set on

1018
00:36:14,203 --> 00:36:16,693
fire, saying Please set something
on fire that said, I think the

1019
00:36:16,693 --> 00:36:18,043
sentence was disproportionate.

1020
00:36:18,043 --> 00:36:20,713
It's higher than the sentence
you'd get for an actual assault.

1021
00:36:20,814 --> 00:36:21,084
Adam: yeah.

1022
00:36:21,084 --> 00:36:23,664
The sentencing I thought was crazy,
but it was, I want you pleaded

1023
00:36:23,664 --> 00:36:24,834
guilty to it as well, didn't it?

1024
00:36:24,834 --> 00:36:26,599
So the court courts
stuck in that position.

1025
00:36:26,944 --> 00:36:27,154
Helen: Yeah.

1026
00:36:27,154 --> 00:36:29,344
But you are right Adam, behind
all this is a lot of the fact that

1027
00:36:29,344 --> 00:36:32,284
the police are struggling to catch
up with the volume of commentary.

1028
00:36:32,284 --> 00:36:35,824
Things that people would've once said to
their mate in a pub now being said online

1029
00:36:36,094 --> 00:36:40,174
or people who have got mental health
issues or don't have enough hobbies or

1030
00:36:40,174 --> 00:36:44,464
whatever it might be turning into sort
of online obsessives and, so I think

1031
00:36:44,674 --> 00:36:47,674
when I was at the Daily Mail, we used to
have a long strand of Leland eye feuds.

1032
00:36:47,674 --> 00:36:48,274
Do you remember this?

1033
00:36:48,274 --> 00:36:48,874
A great thing?

1034
00:36:49,204 --> 00:36:52,504
Which people would get obsessed with
boundary wall disputes and it would start

1035
00:36:52,504 --> 00:36:54,184
off as a minor argument about a hedge.

1036
00:36:54,184 --> 00:36:56,404
And then 20 years later they
were people putting dead cats

1037
00:36:56,404 --> 00:36:57,454
on each other's doorsteps.

1038
00:36:57,874 --> 00:37:00,844
All of that has moved online and
that's the bit that the police, I

1039
00:37:00,844 --> 00:37:01,984
think are really struggling to cope

1040
00:37:01,984 --> 00:37:02,194
with.

1041
00:37:02,299 --> 00:37:02,509
Ian: There

1042
00:37:02,509 --> 00:37:03,259
is a problem here.

1043
00:37:03,439 --> 00:37:07,480
in the last, copy of Private Eye,
we had an angle sea counselor saying

1044
00:37:07,780 --> 00:37:12,730
All Tories should be shot Now,
he said that was a Welsh idiom.

1045
00:37:13,540 --> 00:37:13,990
was his

1046
00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:17,350
Adam: so bad as convincing as Elon
Musk and the PTO guy being a safe

1047
00:37:17,350 --> 00:37:17,890
African

1048
00:37:17,890 --> 00:37:19,120
traditional insult.

1049
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:19,330
That's,

1050
00:37:19,540 --> 00:37:19,810
yeah.

1051
00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:23,590
Ian: but I think it is historically the
sort of thing that people could say,

1052
00:37:23,830 --> 00:37:25,600
and it wouldn't be taken seriously then.

1053
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:28,060
But then various mps did get killed.

1054
00:37:29,020 --> 00:37:34,180
and suddenly the difference between
using Oh, string them all up.

1055
00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:34,960
I hate 'em.

1056
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,829
I wish they'd all die, suddenly became
something that happened in the real world.

1057
00:37:38,829 --> 00:37:39,039
Yeah.

1058
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:45,752
So I think there was a problem, for
how do you police the new world where

1059
00:37:45,752 --> 00:37:47,252
these things merge into each other.

1060
00:37:47,762 --> 00:37:50,312
and that creates, as Helen says,
a huge problem from police.

1061
00:37:50,462 --> 00:37:54,692
But as I'm trying to agree with both
of you, but on the precedence we have,

1062
00:37:54,692 --> 00:37:57,689
there is no specific, resolute line.

1063
00:37:57,869 --> 00:38:01,769
But, individual police surely
must be able to use their judgment

1064
00:38:01,889 --> 00:38:06,171
into saying, is this actually
an incitement to violence

1065
00:38:06,171 --> 00:38:07,761
that we have to, worry about?

1066
00:38:07,881 --> 00:38:10,486
Or is it someone being
hotheaded and ridiculous?

1067
00:38:10,901 --> 00:38:11,021
Andy: I

1068
00:38:11,021 --> 00:38:14,621
think it's between 16 and 70% of trans
people have reported either violence or

1069
00:38:14,621 --> 00:38:16,631
harassment as a result of being trans.

1070
00:38:16,931 --> 00:38:18,941
So to them I imagine
that judgment would feel

1071
00:38:18,941 --> 00:38:20,131
very differently to-and as a

1072
00:38:20,576 --> 00:38:21,146
Adam: characteristic,

1073
00:38:21,401 --> 00:38:21,611
Andy: Yeah.

1074
00:38:21,671 --> 00:38:25,961
So you know, to, so then that
judgment would be substantially

1075
00:38:25,961 --> 00:38:26,171
different.

1076
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:28,600
Helen: It's very tricky though, because
the Scottish law and the same thing

1077
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,080
has happened here, does not have sex
as a protected characteristic is one

1078
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,990
of the things they said they were
gonna bring in a separate misogyny law.

1079
00:38:35,290 --> 00:38:38,140
I've always suspected it's because
misogyny is just so widespread and

1080
00:38:38,140 --> 00:38:40,240
one person's, you get called a bitch.

1081
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:41,980
Is that now actionable misogyny or not?

1082
00:38:41,980 --> 00:38:44,560
It's just something that happens all
the time and I think that speaks to

1083
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,030
the difficulty of working out what the
general consensus in the population is.

1084
00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:52,150
So the, example of translators
would be, is misgendering

1085
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:53,380
somebody a hate crime or not?

1086
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:56,230
Some people would say yes, but it
was, came up as an issue at the

1087
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:58,840
trial about whether or not referring
someone using sex-based pronouns was

1088
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:00,610
an acceptable thing to do or not.

1089
00:39:00,820 --> 00:39:03,400
People have wildly different
views and the police are in the

1090
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,010
situation of trying to find a median
ground that everyone can agree on.

1091
00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:10,910
When very obviously people cannot
agree on what is offensive and

1092
00:39:10,910 --> 00:39:12,050
what is hate speech and what isn't.

1093
00:39:13,288 --> 00:39:14,038
Andy: I think we've cleared that one

1094
00:39:14,038 --> 00:39:14,188
up.

1095
00:39:15,298 --> 00:39:16,108
That's all sorted man.

1096
00:39:16,113 --> 00:39:16,373
Yeah.

1097
00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:19,329
And thus concludes this week's
tour of Free Speech Corner.

1098
00:39:20,109 --> 00:39:23,709
We'll be back next time with another
look at some people you really don't

1099
00:39:23,709 --> 00:39:26,868
wanna have to support, but the free
speech calls means you have to.

1100
00:39:26,868 --> 00:39:29,388
Anyway, that's it for
this episode of page 94.

1101
00:39:29,388 --> 00:39:30,558
Thank you so much for listening.

1102
00:39:30,558 --> 00:39:34,518
If you've enjoyed it, then why not go
and get your subscription to Private Eye

1103
00:39:34,548 --> 00:39:37,698
or just go into your local news agent
and get a copy of Private Eye, that's

1104
00:39:37,698 --> 00:39:42,186
your gateway, to a wonderful world of
fantastic investigative journalism.

1105
00:39:42,186 --> 00:39:44,406
Fantastic jokes, fantastic
cartoons, all of it.

1106
00:39:44,886 --> 00:39:46,596
That's your local news agent.

1107
00:39:47,106 --> 00:39:50,436
Look up where it is and then go
there and we'll be back again in a

1108
00:39:50,436 --> 00:39:51,846
fortnight's time with another of these.

1109
00:39:52,050 --> 00:39:54,300
and thanks to Matt Hill of
Rethink Audio for producing.

1110
00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:54,840
Bye for now.