Siddo: [00:00:00] Welcome back to The Better Places podcast, the show where we explore the people, projects, and ideas shaping the future of our towns, cities, and neighborhoods. I'm your host, SDU Dwy, account director at Concilio, uh, where I work with London's developers built environment consultants, councils, and communities to bring better places to life.

Siddo: I'm joined today by, uh, I Abraham Ibrahim. Welcome.

Ibrahim: Thank you, sir.

Siddo: Ibrahim is managing Director of Portland Design and one of the UK's, uh, most influential voices on human centered placemaking and future ready retail Ibrahim's journey has, uh, is as unique as his perspective, starting with a degree in mechanical and aeronautical, um, studies and, um, production, uh, engineering from Kingston Poly technique followed by.

Siddo: Masters in industrial design from, uh, the Royal College of Art and a diploma, [00:01:00] um, from Imperial College London. That combination and technical rigor, uh, and creative vision has shaped a career spanning more than three decades on its leadership. Portland, uh, has involved from a traditional, uh. Retail design agency into a global strategic consultancy delivering, um, projects from community led neighborhoods in Elephant Castle to wayfinding transformations at, uh, King's Cross Coal Drops Yard, which I, uh, can't wait to talk about.

Siddo: Uh, to reimagining the passenger experience in airport, um, Arab aircraft hubs around the world. He's also the honorary professor at Cardiff University. S uh, Walsh School of Architecture, author of Future Ready Retail, and is working on a second book focused on community led placemaking. Uh, in our conversation, uh, we'll explore the big ideas behind creating places.

Siddo: Um, people love how rapid change is really writing the rules. Um, why the most important, [00:02:00] um, places most successful places today are measured not just in footfall, but in the connection, experience, and a sense of belonging. You trained in on, um, in also school engineering and industrial design before moving into the retail and place, uh, just actually space.

Siddo: Um, can you tell some of our listeners, um, how that shift happened and how it, uh, shaped your approach to design?

Ibrahim: Yeah. Um, so, uh, after completing my, um, post-grad, um, industrial design studies at the Royal College, um, of art, I. Got a job in a consultancy and, uh, in design consultancy. And I was a, a, an industrial designer for a few years.

Ibrahim: Um, and one day my boss asked me to join another project team, um, which was, um, a retail team, um, designing at that time the first open plan bank. So I was Open Plan Bank. Yeah, please, please,

Siddo: please do. [00:03:00] Uh, elaborate on,

Ibrahim: as in no more bandit screens. So open plan as you see now. I mean, that was revolutionary in those days.

Ibrahim: Mm-hmm. Um, so it was a TSB at the time and, uh, I got, I got involved in that and that introduced me to the world of retail and the language. Of brand and marketing. Um, and then I went on actually to do the, um, institute marketing kind of qualifications, to kind of retraining marketing and really got into brand, brand strategy, retail, and eventually kind of found myself in doing more and more strategy and.

Ibrahim: Kind of insights and getting involved in, and getting a big interest in, in, into kind of future trends. Um, and what were the cultural shifts that are informing the changes we were experiencing and driving those changes. And, and by the time we got into the two thousands, we were realizing how much, [00:04:00] um, people's relationship with brands.

Ibrahim: And, and retail was changing, uh, and how that was changing the complexion, um, of our high streets, of our town centers. Um, and we saw that really sort of 20 years ago. Um, and we felt that, and you mentioned it in your introduction, we felt that that demand did a pivot in the business business from a, a roster of clients who are retailers and brands to really.

Ibrahim: Focusing as well as on that, but focusing on the retail's impact on the built environment in in, in terms of assets. So whether those assets are shopping centers or high streets or developments or airports or railway stations, how are these changes in retail, IE ground level activation? How are they impacting these places?

Ibrahim: And of course. The, the, the [00:05:00] subject on everyone's lips since then has been the dying high street. Mm-hmm. And that's what I really got passionate about. And, and, um, more recently, over the last five or six years, um, of getting more interested in the impact we have socially and culturally as well as, as and environmentally.

Ibrahim: As well as commercially. So I'm a, I absolutely believe that if we. If we resolve the issue or address the issue of social value, cultural value, um, that will lead to commercial value. Uh, and I think that that is a kind of very interesting lens through which to look at what the future of our town centers are and the future of our shopping centers.

Siddo: Indeed, and it's a, it is a quite cardinal, um, uh, uh. So Indeed, and it's quite, uh, an important perspective that, that you bring, uh, to this conversation. And I really wanted [00:06:00] to just unpack one of the first things that you said there. Um, because I think for a lay person to just walk into the, um, high Street Bank, um, they may not fully recall what they were like back then.

Siddo: Now I wonder what informed, um. That decision, what was it a, a, a sense of qualitative and, uh, quantitative data or focus groups, or was it just a thought that perhaps if people want access to their own money, they should feel comfortable in the spaces that they're they're in?

Ibrahim: Yeah. We're talking about 19 89, 19 90.

Ibrahim: That's when I worked on that project. Mm. And it was definitely informed by this whole idea of, of humanizing banking. Humanizing that relationship with people. Uh, ironically it's gone the other way more recently with technology more. Exactly. But in those days, uh, where there were a plethora of, of, of high street banks is how do you get, uh, close to people?

Ibrahim: How do you remove the barriers? Um, technology allowed the banks to be, um, um, at that [00:07:00] time secure. Um, and, and that was a pioneering thing to, to be able to do, um, um, in those days. And, you know, we saw that. From that time, the idea of retail being increasingly about experience. Mm-hmm. Um, well you wanna create

Siddo: places that people love, right?

Siddo: I mean, that, that's one of your, um, your credos, or at least um, my research around your consultancy. Yeah. It's about on unlocking the power of place, unlocking the power, our

Ibrahim: place, and, and creating a place that is, that is human. And I absolutely believe that any. Any architecture that's not human centric is irrelevant.

Ibrahim: Mm-hmm. And we've got to create places that are human in every respect, in terms of scale, in terms of, um, uh, the mix, in terms of the, the environment, in terms of materials, absolutely everything. Um, and I think the [00:08:00] mix, how you create the activation and what the activation is, um, is very much. The key to creating a place that it resonates, um, with its locality, uh, with its community, and therefore is humanized.

Siddo: Mm-hmm.

Ibrahim: Um, and we want to, and that is an antidote to a cookie cutter approach. To, to retail, uh, and, and, and a public realm. Yeah.

Siddo: And before we started filming, we got into a conversation about one of my favorite places in London, but somewhere that I'd only discovered by accident. And, uh, that was, uh, due to, uh, I think it were, um.

Siddo: It must have been a staff party that we, we had down there cold drops yard. Yeah. Please tell us a bit more about that project for those who perhaps hadn't discovered it yet. And I use the word discover, uh, intentionally because it's, um, you know, before we got started, uh, talking, I, I admitted and I probably still do.

Siddo: I find it so [00:09:00] difficult to find. It's if you entered, uh, if you exited from King's Cross, you just wouldn't know it was there.

Ibrahim: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let me start by saying King's Cross and Cold Drops yard, um, are an incredible development and in a very, very important far reaching, um, idea that is a, you know, a wonderful part of London transform London and, and.

Ibrahim: Um, I think it's an amazing piece of regeneration. Um, it has its challenges. Um. Particularly cold drops yard had its challenges. Um, I think in its fabric, in its in its architectural treatment, it's beautiful. Oh, it's stunning. Yeah, absolutely stunning. And in its, in its kind of, um, regeneration of what was there is, is is is really incredible.

Ibrahim: And it's, um, but I think it has a challenge in as much as Yep, you come up the station, you dunno where it is. So that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a way finding issue. But once you are in the heart of the overall Kings [00:10:00] cross development, IE in Granary Square, you know it is quite difficult. To be able to draw footfall into cold drops yard from Granary Square because it's not naturally connected,

Siddo: which is the perennial problem, I think, for any retailer, especially in, uh, who's operating now.

Siddo: And I wonder that, what's the challenge that's posed to you when a retailer comes to you and says, I, I have a slightly obscure, uh, location that, um, in which I'm developing and I'm bringing forward something that is as great as, uh, as. The Coops yard and we will touch on Elephant cast on some of the work that Get living.

Siddo: Did there, um, how do you approach thinking about way finding and, and making that experience, um, human?

Ibrahim: Well, first of all, uh, you gotta understand who the audience are and what motivates them and what their, not just their journeys, but their missions. What are they there for? Um, and, and understanding that.

Ibrahim: Very, very, um, um, [00:11:00] intimately and really getting under the skin of that and mapping those journeys, mapping the missions on, onto that, onto that space is the beginnings of, of of, of way finding. But way finding is not just about navigation and orientation way finding is, is brand expression. Mm-hmm. Way finding is, is public realm, you know?

Ibrahim: So, uh. The, the strategy of it, the, the, what is the, what is the overall story of this, what we're trying to achieve here, beyond allowing people to know where they are, where they want to go. Um, so that's the, the, the kind of first thing is, is, is is that kind of very strategic kind of. Um, definition and then really, um, understanding where are the key portals, where are the key touch points?

Ibrahim: Where are the key dishes and points? Uh, how do you step stone people across a space, across a development? If you are in Granary Square, how do you if step stone people from Granary Square to coal drops yard, you know, these are all. [00:12:00] Very important issues. And once you're in any development, what's the scale?

Ibrahim: Like? How far are the shops? How, how, how warm is the public realm? How much does it feel human? How much do you want to just hang out there? Um, can you hang out there without spending your money? Because that's a big, big part of it that that's the London challenge isn't, that's what we wanna do. We wanna be able to hang out there because it's just, it's just a great place to be.

Ibrahim: And of course, believe me, you will then spend money, oh, be massive. But if you don't feel comfortable just being in a place because it's either too cold, too high, too long, too wide, you know, too hard, whatever, then no amount of shops will allow, will, will, will, will encourage you to dwell, to linger, and therefore, you know, you won't spend.

Ibrahim: So I think that's part of it. The other part of it is the mix, of course. Um, and the adjacencies of that mix and, and, and not making things which are all premium or all f and b or all fashion or, you know, something which is like, almost like an obsession, I think is getting a [00:13:00] mix. Getting the mix right and how do you change the pace of that mix and change the pace of, of that environment to, to keep it interesting.

Ibrahim: But fundamentally at a very fundamental level, people gotta know where they are, where they wanna go, um, and how they get there. And when they've arrived, you know, all those fundamental way finding kind of components. Um, so it's a mixture of a whole bunch of things really. Um, because we are, we're not, we are way finding specialists, but way finding is only one, one part of what we do.

Ibrahim: We, we are, we're also place strategists and master planners. We always look at that. The way finding in the context of the bigger picture, um, and, and that that's important.

Siddo: And what was the bigger picture when it came to Elephant Castle? Because it's often described as, and I think it's a great example of a really vibrant neighborhood that's been created there, um, especially at a ground level.

Siddo: Yeah. How, how do you balance the commercial objectives with building real community connections?[00:14:00]

Ibrahim: I mean, in our, in our case, we inherited. Uh, a development, um, which was already designed. So the architecture was there. The, you know, the, the, the, the kind of concept was there. But what we, what we believe absolutely is in, in order to, you know, in terms of answering your question, is how do you. A development that's, that's permeable, that's open, that turns, that doesn't turn.

Ibrahim: Its back to its community, opens to the community, it looks out to the community and doesn't create a hermetically sealed box that looks in. I think that's sort of the, the fundamentals. But I think also, you know, it's not about just having a amenity for all the people that live in the towers. It's about creating a destination for London and, and.

Ibrahim: That the authenticity and the truism of that place and that destination, it's about its community. It's about, its its Latino [00:15:00] community. Its, its, um, Colombian community. You know, it's, it's Afro-Caribbean community. It's whole mix of different, um, um, um, ethnicities along with its indigenous community, you know?

Ibrahim: So, so I think that brings the essence of it. I don't think, and I don't like actually, although I use it, I actually don't like the term placemaking. We're not here. Mm. And we're not a arrogant enough to believe we can make anything. We are not here to make place, or God forbid, uh, impose place. We're here to help seed place.

Ibrahim: Mm. To help keep place to shape, place with some very important decisions. And I think how you seed it, what are the first things you do and, and, and how you ensure that. You, you know, the, the community you are engaging with is, is fully collaborative, uh, has fully collaborated in that process. Um,

Siddo: and could, could you, could you give us an example of where you think that you've really, [00:16:00] um, effectively seeded, uh, kind of foundations of what makes a good place?

Ibrahim: I mean, in the case of Element and castle, the, the, the, the, the kind of fundamentals of. Strategic thinking was driven by this idea of, um, discovering the jaws. Mm-hmm. Because if you look at the master plan, ed Van Castle isn't just a a, a square, you know, it, it, it, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a. It's a central piece, but it has a whole bunch of arteries, a whole bunch of, uh, of, uh, um, of, of, of side streets and smaller areas that kind of, you discover from that central mm-hmm.

Ibrahim: Central Plaza, whether they are the Archies, whether it's a discovery of Elephant Park, whether in the future it'll be discovering, um, going, uh, west, uh, to phase three, which is where the LCC is now. Whether it's looking at, you know, Warworth Road and how you bleed into War Road, there's, there's a whole bunch of kind of.

Ibrahim: This sort of ecosystem of [00:17:00] different types of space, different scales of space. Some of them knew, some of them old, some of them, you know, you know, made of old bricks. Some of them are polished in a highly, highly, highly kind of finished kind of, uh, um, materials. Um, uh, and, and how, and, and, and how you kind of therefore within that blend familiar.

Ibrahim: Brands and offers with local, independent, um, um, offers and how you blend that and how you kind of create these journeys of discovery to discover these jewels, which only can be found in Castle. That was the idea. But of course within that, of course we've gotta have some familiar, um, um, um, national players.

Ibrahim: Um, because I think that's, that's part of feeling comfortable. That's part of humanizing. Mm. I'm, I'm here and, and I know there's something familiar. I know what I'm gonna get and how much it's gonna cost me, and that, that is important, particularly if I live upstairs, you know? [00:18:00] But you gotta blend that. And you can't put smaller, interesting, independent brands just in tertiary spaces.

Ibrahim: You've gotta blend it all in, in, in, in. So it works together both horizontally and vertically. Um, so they're the principles really.

Siddo: Hmm. And I have to say, it's, um, it's really quite fascinating. I wonder. In terms of your international work, especially some of these airport hubs that you have created? I think it's, it is, it is no secret that, uh, airlines serve particular, um, transport hubs.

Siddo: And whether it's, I know if you're flying to Asia, you may, um, cross through either Dubai or um, Abu Dhabi airports, but there's also, um, um, sowl Airport, which is famous for its massive place making, um. Or, uh, work spans the commercial planning and passenger experience. Um, how is designing an airport different from, um, perhaps designing spaces for [00:19:00] cities?

Ibrahim: Yeah, it's a very, it's a searching question. It's a very interesting question, and, and it's a very important question if you're dealing with airports because. As I said, everything we do starts with our audience. Our, our mantra, um, is people and places, not buildings and spaces. So we've got to really understand our audience.

Ibrahim: And one fundamental truism is that when you are traveling in an airport, most people, when they're traveling in an airport, they have a very different mindset. They have a very different, um, state of mind. Um, on the one hand, often they are, um, excited. Adrenaline, not massively adrenaline, not for the end

Siddo: destination, but you wanna know what you home, what you can, what you can discover whilst you're there.

Ibrahim: Yeah, totally. Um, you know, they're, they're, they're excited. They're, they're, they're adrenaline driven, as I say. They're, they're, they're kind of anticipating something. They're, they're also stressed.

Siddo: Mm. [00:20:00]

Ibrahim: It by and large, you know, they're in unfamiliar territory, unfamiliar environment. Um, so there's this kind of.

Ibrahim: Kind of a contradiction that's happening. Um, and therefore they, when it comes to shopping, they're behaving in quite a, quite an unusual way. Um, you know, drinking a partner Guinness at seven in the morning, you're not gonna do that when you're normally at home. I wouldn't say I'm guilty of that whatsoever.

Ibrahim: Um, but

Siddo: I mean, it is fascinat. Oh, do you know, uh. A a, a friend of mine has a, has a real tendency to, uh, suggest, in fact insist that we have Nandos, uh, especially if it's an early morning flight. And I've often said to 'em, well, I don't tend to eat breakfast, at least not anymore, uh, my in fasting, but the.

Siddo: Whose idea was it to place, uh, weather spoons, Nandos or so at some of these airports? And of course, London's Heathrow is such a massive hub, uh, serves [00:21:00] millions and tens of millions of people each year. Um, yeah. What, what, what goes into the mindset of some of these commercial operators on the, these airport giants to think this is a great idea?

Siddo: 'cause, '

Ibrahim: cause

Siddo: it

Ibrahim: works.

Siddo: Indeed. Well, it does. I've answered my old question because it works

Ibrahim: and that's what people want. You know, and you can see every airport globally. It's got a McDonald's, got a Burger King or KFC or whatever. You know, people, that's what people want. And there's other stuff as well.

Ibrahim: Mm-hmm. You know, um, I mean, I, a personal level, I'm not a fan. I don't, I don't, I don't eat that.

Siddo: What's, what's your choice? What's your choice? If you, uh, arrived in the airport in the morning and then perhaps in, in a later afternoon, even

Ibrahim: in the morning, it's, you know, it's a qua on a coffee, you know.

Ibrahim: Something like, but actually I actually really like Wagga MAs. You know, when I'm in an airport, if there's a Wagamamas, I would, I would, I would shoot that. So soups, yeah, they're great. You know, they're, they're quite healthy. Yeah, they, they're good. They're good.

Siddo: Yeah. And, uh, of course, your, your work, um, internationally crosses both Europe, uh, middle East, but also Asia.

Siddo: Um, which project best kind of illustrates, uh, Portland's [00:22:00] global perspective and, um, some of your adaptability,

Ibrahim: interesting question. I mean, I suppose internationally what we are known for, the kind of seminal project that we did was, um, the Saudi island on, in Abu Dhabi. Mm-hmm. Where, where, um, the Guggenheim, um, is planned.

Ibrahim: And, um, the, um, l Louv is, is, um, shake Side Museum. So it's a museum kind of quarter. Mm. Um, I say G Plan, I think it's open now. Um, and, um. It's a 27 square kilometer, um, island brand. New developments of housing, commercial, leisure, retail, whole thing seven. Um, so originally it was seven districts. Um, um, a whole bunch of architects working all these different buildings and districts and we were there to kind of.

Ibrahim: Look at the ground level [00:23:00] strategy and master plan across all the districts. Mm. Across all the architects. So we kind of set the strategy and, and with the glue, if you like, that held all that together at the ground level and. Um, so that was a, a and, and, and with all the way finding as well and the brand of the island.

Ibrahim: Um, so that was a pretty seminal project for us, and it, it kind of catapulted the business mm-hmm.

Siddo: In many ways. Um, what were you most proud of in, uh, some of the design work that you did across those? Um, well, initially seven districts.

Ibrahim: Oh, I think, I think the, the, and this was quite a while ago. The, the strategy that kind of, um, defined a future of retail and how retail will impact.

Ibrahim: 'cause don't forget we were doing this before it was any spade on the ground. Do you

Siddo: think it in the

Ibrahim: least, or perhaps perhaps informed work across the globe? Totally. I mean, it's a, it's a, the audience for Saudi Island is completely international. Um, but you know, those [00:24:00] days we were talking about, um, the ground level, not just being retail.

Ibrahim: Mm-hmm. Um, and really blending. Um, with, with a whole bunch of other kind of offers, um, around leisure, entertainment, culture, healthcare, um, learning, um, all the experiential kind of offers, um, blended with retail, um, food and that, that was kind of very early days of thinking in those ways. Um, but yeah, it was a very interesting project and.

Ibrahim: And a really large scale project. And it's, and I would say very challenging as well, but uh, it's really good to see it gradually come to life and,

Siddo: and obviously on a foundational level, I think in, uh, future Ready Retail that, thank you so much for the book, by the way. You're welcome. Um, sent across to us, uh, you write about places as kind of media platforms.

Siddo: Yeah. Um, how does that idea challenge traditional property [00:25:00] valuation models? What. What is the concept?

Ibrahim: Right. Okay. That's a, uh, yeah, it's a good question. Um,

Siddo: well let's keep, uh, our guests on their feet here 'cause it's, uh, all about thought leadership and, and a good insight. But it was a concept that I was quite fascinated by.

Siddo: Yeah. What, what, what is it?

Ibrahim: As you asked me a question, I'm trying to think of where do I start with this? So I go right to first principles. Let's start by saying, uh, you know, a truism basically. Retail has always been, will always be only about four things. Recruitment, transaction fulfillment, and retention.

Ibrahim: Find the customer basic

Siddo: principles of business.

Ibrahim: Yeah, find the customer, sell them something, get it to them, and encourage them to come back. What's interesting is that transaction fulfillment is increasingly migrating online. So the physical space, let's not call it a shop anymore. Mm-hmm. The physical space.

Ibrahim: Therefore, [00:26:00] if it's, first of all, I'm generalizing, and secondly, I'm being a little bit provocative because it's a podcast and because I wrote it in the book. But you know, by and large, we've been speaking about this for at least. 10 years, and you can see the trend gradually, albeit slowly, but gradually going that way by and large.

Ibrahim: Um, more and more retailers are transacting, fulfilling more and more of their, of their products online. So increasingly retail space will be used more and more for recruitment and retention to drive people. Online, um, and online increasingly also meaning social media. So if that's the case, the issue isn't, I don't think the issue isn't, um, whether it's the case actually, it's just the, the speed and the [00:27:00] proportion of any given asset.

Ibrahim: How much of that space. Will be for transaction and fulfillment. And how much of a space will be for recruitment and retention? In other words, if a brand takes a space, um, occupies a space to, to, to, to recruit and retain, it means they're behaving like a media platform. They're treating that physical space.

Siddo: It's a showroom. It's like media.

Ibrahim: Yeah, exactly. But the, the shift is not that it's a, I mean, showrooming has been around for a long time. It's it's not about the showrooming. Mm. 'cause question. The question was about revenue and the revenue of a showroom. Is a traditional revenue you pay by how much space you've got.

Ibrahim: You can't pay by turnover because you're not turning over anything, but you pay by how much space you've got. But this is, this is a different paradigm.

Siddo: You know, it's not always that you, uh, you read something in the book and then you can speak to the author about it. So, you know, I was reading concept and I thought was so fascinating.

Siddo: Please. Yeah,

Ibrahim: continue. Yeah. So, so the, the, the issue is, the difference is this. So if we have, if, if, if we're, I'm a brand and I [00:28:00] take a space and I, I wanna use that space. Um, um, for transaction, sorry for recruitment and retention. So how am I gonna measure the value of that space to me? And more importantly, how is the asset owner gonna measure the value to the brand?

Ibrahim: In other words, how am I gonna get rent from it? Is it per square meter? Well, if I'm a really, really cool brand and I really know what I'm doing, I could create something really compelling that people will photograph and share and talk about. In other words, it create media impressions. Mm-hmm. In one square meter.

Ibrahim: So the value, the value of it is not about how many square meters. It's, it's about, its its ability to drive media impressions that are shareable. But very importantly, it's not just about how it can drive media impressions from a landlord perspective, from an asset owner's perspective. It's about how you can attribute those, that media impression to that [00:29:00] space.

Ibrahim: The attribution of it is the key, and if we can attribute to whatever happens there at any time, to all the media impressions, it's drive, it drives the fellowship, the shares, the tweets, the whatever. Then the challenge is how do you put a value to those? Mm-hmm. A monetary value. Yeah. So if a brand spends $1, which is kind of average on a Facebook click.

Ibrahim: How much is the brand willing to pay for half an hour of undivided attention of a fan? Indeed. So you're moving now in that paradigm? Yeah. '

Siddo: cause I mean, at this point, uh, mo most clips I see nowadays are about 30 seconds long. Yeah. But I'm even seeing increasingly clips about 16 seconds for Please call, clips.

Siddo: I'm watching. Yeah. Yeah. If I'm on TikTok, if I've ever fall into that rabbit hole for 20 minutes a day, it's, it's instant.

Ibrahim: Yeah, absolutely. But what I'm saying is that therefore. How much am I willing to pay for that attention if, if the landlord can [00:30:00] attribute it to what happened in what's happening into that in that space?

Ibrahim: Yeah. It's also driving footfall to

Siddo: their asset and

Ibrahim: it's driving footfall to their asset of course. But very importantly, suddenly if you are a brand doing that, you are no longer gonna dealing with consumers. Mm-hmm. It is not about consumers. Mm-hmm. And the holy GRA of a brand in a retail context and in any other context is to develop fandom.

Ibrahim: So it's about fandom and that's the shift. Wow. It's about really, um, understanding how we can capture the data that is geo-located, in other words, attributed to that physical space that proves that that data, that, that, that media impression mm-hmm. Is, was driven from that, from that experience. And then we put pun monetary value to it, but then you tobo boost it because if that experience.

Ibrahim: So compelling and it's live streamed. Suddenly your audience, your fandom isn't [00:31:00] place or time dependent. Then anyone can, can, can tune into that live stream, um, whatever the experience is. So suddenly your audience, if you are an asset owner, if you're a shopping center or high street, your potential audience isn't the people that just, uh, uh, you know, um, um, uh, are present at that time.

Ibrahim: And that's where. The real value comes. Now, when it comes to an asset, when it comes to a town center, a high street, a shopping center, an airport, whatever, the question, as I say, is not whether that's gonna happen. In fact, it is happening already. You see in China absolutely exploding this, this, um, social commerce driven by live streaming.

Ibrahim: In other words, commerce through content. Mm. So that whole content, content commerce, um, through social media is, is really critical. But. The key is that, um, uh, um, I lost my thread now I was gonna say something. Oh, um, [00:32:00] we said about live streaming.

Ibrahim: Ah, I can't fuck this. I've lost the thread. I've lost the thread, but it was a one, one other point I was gonna make. And it was, it was about, um. Uh, the live streaming? Ah, yes. Okay. So the key is if I'm an asset owner, if I own a high street, if I'm a, you know, town center, shopping center, airport, whatever the key is, not whether that's gonna happen.

Siddo: Mm.

Ibrahim: The key is in the master plan. What proportion of my occupiers are transacting and fulfilling, and what proportion are treating that, um, that space as a media platform Now. What's interesting as that proportion, the balance shifts and there's more and more media space that changes everything. If a, if a, if a, if a brand takes a space to, to as a media, it shifts everything.

Ibrahim: It changes the whole paradigm. The, [00:33:00] the, the design of the space, the service proposition, the um, the technology. Mm. Um, the architecture, the master plan, how it connects to public realm. It's now more open cell. It's more like a stage than a shop and,

Siddo: you know, which, uh, company I think does that really well.

Siddo: Apple. Yes, of course. Their stores are incredible. I mean, not only are they architecturally impressive, yeah, but the way that they blend even with the, um, the pavement, it is as if you are, um, seamlessly stepping into this totally world. The, uh, you can easily purchase it there, or it can also just be a place where you are.

Siddo: Interacting with the technology. Yeah.

Ibrahim: And, and, and, and it doesn't matter whether you purchase it there or online, that I don't care. Absolutely. And the profits there revenue, prove it. Yeah.

Siddo: Um, so we talked a bit about responding, uh, to kind of rapid social and technological change, but how do you think that, uh, your work, without giving away any kind of trade [00:34:00] secrets, can, can see into the shifts that are coming, um, particularly in retail, how, how you, um.

Siddo: Is it the, there are some cardinal human traits that, that, you know, will be constant or, um, are there trends that are often are here with us now that you can see coming down the track?

Ibrahim: Yeah, all of those things. But I mean, we have a, a foresight team headed by my, my colleague. Uh, Elisa and we also have a, a data analytics team headed by my colleague Patty.

Ibrahim: And yeah, their, their, their expertise is exactly that, is it's identifying the key cultural trends. Looking at the big societal initially, first off, first off, looking at the big societal shifts, the cultural shifts, um, that are, are, are kind of on the horizon that we believe will have an impact. Um. And, and then, and that's, Elisa sort of does that and articulates that and, and, and, and story find it if you like.[00:35:00]

Ibrahim: And Patty really kind of looks at that in terms of how it might impact. For the data from that, how it might impact, um, the built environment and what what we are doing, um, in, in, in commercial terms and also in social value terms. Um, but yeah, these guys are absolute, sort of experts in, in, in cultural intelligence, um, and, and, um, insights and trend forecasting and analysis.

Ibrahim: Um, but certainly we don't sort of just look at. Kind of technology trends or, uh, things that are kind of buzzy at the moment. We try to look at more long-term, um, cultural shifts and you can, you can begin to see the kind of geopolitical and social cultural shifts that are beginning to happen. And this, this sort of polarization, this I idea of, of, of, um, this, this kind of.

Ibrahim: Um, epidemic we [00:36:00] have in, in, in, in loneliness. Mm-hmm. Um, healthcare issues. There's a whole bunch of things that are, that are really being to shift people's mindset, um, particularly young people. Um, and, and we are very interested in, in all that. Um, and I think fundamental change is not really to do with design or architecture or, um, the built environment.

Ibrahim: It's to do with a shift in the relationship. People have with brands and place that relationship is shifting. Mm. Um, and there's a famous journalist called Jillian t. Who writes for the Times. Mm-hmm. And she talks about something very interesting. I can't, I've got her book, but I can't remember the name of the book.

Ibrahim: But she talks about this shift from vertical trust to horizontal trust. Um, sorry. From vertical trust to lateral trust. And vertical trust is, is about trust in institutions, trust in government, trust in big brands. This is declining the [00:37:00] lack of trust in faceless businesses. Um, um. And there's more and more trust growing, trust in, in, in, in, in lateral trust, in, in people's peer groups, in micro influences, in small brands, in localism, in their local community.

Ibrahim: So this shift is really interesting and it has a big. Impact. And this is a kind of typical cultural shift that we, we kind of map and track. Uh, and those signals, uh, as we call them, are things that we really kind of focus on and try to translate and project them and how they might impact our clients.

Ibrahim: And some of the work we're doing.

Siddo: Thank you. That's I'm deeply interested. I, I'll certainly take a look at it myself. And, um, it's could segue into the, kind of, just, just before you go closing section,

Ibrahim: just to finish off, so I forgot to say, so we have, uh, something called From the Future of Love mm-hmm.

Ibrahim: Which is a LinkedIn kind of newsletter on our website. And we, a lot of this is much more longer form. But that's where we talk about it. Yep. Up.

Siddo: Check it [00:38:00] out. Always up for reading. And I've actually said that, um, something that uh, some organizations, consultants, are kind of neglect to understand is actually London's is a city of readers.

Siddo: Um, and, and we certainly do love, uh, the insight that we can find. And I know that there's a proliferation of, um. Uh, podcast and video content. Um, always love a good read. So yeah, I'll be sure to subscribe. And on good reads, uh, you're working on your second book. I am. Um, this time focus on,

Ibrahim: thank you very much.

Siddo: What? Yeah. Um. This time focused on community place, uh, making or indeed a, uh, kind of alternative uh, term. Can you share any early themes or kind of provocating from that work?

Ibrahim: Yeah. First thing to [00:39:00] say, I'm writing it with my son, so I'm a co-author, um, um, which has been really quite an amazing experience, um, as you could imagine.

Ibrahim: Um. And the book really explores the intersection between brands, place and culture, and how brands, um, must now increasingly be connected to the culture, the culture of common interest, and how that's gonna impact, um, the places that those brands frequent or those brands occupy. Um, and. What impact will that have on our, on places, on, on the, um, activation of place, the vibrancy of place, the connection to community of place, um, and in, in fostering this idea of, of [00:40:00] connection to culture and thriving community through, through brands, how.

Ibrahim: Can that impact or drive social value and impact social value kind of criteria? Um, whether, I mean, could, could that kind of what I've just described, could that impact sort of community cohesion, um, healthcare outcomes, meaningful employment, intergenerational connection and fairness, a whole bunch of things.

Ibrahim: Mm-hmm. So we absolutely believe that if you get in any given place, if you. Create a strategy which has the, the right type of occupiers, the right type of mix that drives, um, that drives content. It's not about architecture, it's about content. The architecture is a byproduct of understanding what the content is, IE the activation content.

Ibrahim: Um, how does that drive community [00:41:00] and how is that content and community. Connected and aligned to culture and what are the mm-hmm. Cultures that it's aligned to. And the fourth c uh, of, of place shaping, I prefer to call it, is co-creation. You can't do that without co-creating it with community, um, with, with your audience, um, with, and I don't call them consumers with, with with the citizens, um, that have a stake in this.

Ibrahim: So, yeah, so those four Cs of play shaping are fundamentally what the book is built around. Um, and of course, as you could imagine, a lot of that is manifested in, in, in the, in the digital world, in the virtual world. Um, so yeah, so it's been great fun writing with my son. Hmm. Um, he's very good. Um, and I've learned a lot from him, which, uh, which, which is, which is really kind of interesting.

Ibrahim: Yeah. I'm very proud to have, be able to have the opportunity to write, to write it with him. And I'm, and [00:42:00] I'm very grateful and, uh, to Kogan page who have given us the opportunity. They're great. They're great guys.

Siddo: Thank you so much. And I'm certainly looking forward to, uh, to reading through our next book and as we close, uh, one project you take a listening to, if they really wanted to see Portland Design's ethos in action.

Ibrahim: I mean, I could go back in history, but I think let's keep it more recent. Uh, Foundry Mm, which is the coworking, um, brand and offer, um, Forer, L and g. Um, and do you want me to tell you the reason why? Of course. Um, I think it really is, it's quite pioneering and it points to the future of. Albeit it's about coworking.

Ibrahim: Of course it's a co-working offer, but it's interesting how coworking [00:43:00] is being treated and looked upon like retail. So it sits at the ground level. Shot in the shopping center. Isn't don't one in oval? I, I'm mistaken, I think. No, no, they don't. They, they, the ones, we did the initial ones, and I mean, there's more, more of them now, but we did, um.

Ibrahim: Um, the Beacon in, in East Born, which is a shopping center, uh, um, the Dolphin in Paul, which is a shopping center, uh, and um, in Walthamstow, A BTR development. But what's built to rent development? Um, but what's interesting is how co-working isn't. In this case, you know, it isn't a kind of a, this sort of hermetically sealed kind of unit that kind of has no connectivity.

Ibrahim: The, the Hawaii ethos of, of, of, of, of, uh, of foundries that connects to its community is outward looking. And it can, and, and very importantly, it activates public realm. It catalyzes retail and f and b, and it becomes a key anchor in an asset. Co-working is not. [00:44:00] And I, and I and I in some ways, um, think that the industry's got this wrong.

Ibrahim: A big, big, big, large parts of the industry's got this wrong in terms of co-working. Co-working is not just another office co-working, and this is where, sorry, this is where understanding of the cultural trends that are driving this change. Co-working is a response to a dipping dip out culture of work where we weave work increasingly into our daily lives.

Ibrahim: Mm. So coworking can't be seen, you know, in an office block. I don't believe that is. Actually kind of authentic coworking. Coworking is something that sits with retail at the ground level, catalyzes retail, becomes, um, public realm activating and really, really, um, drives a, a kind of community cohesion.

Siddo: Thank you so much, uh, ire for your time, and I think it's been one of our morely one of our more, uh, fascinating conversations that we've had. Uh, so that's it for, uh, [00:45:00] today's, uh, episode of the Best Faces of the podcast. Uh, my thanks. Im Ibrahim again, uh, for, uh, fascinating and inspiring conversation. Um, from the micro details of human scale design to the bigger picture, uh, of how we value and create.

Siddo: Places in a fast changing world. I'm du Dawa. Thanks again, uh, for the time and for listening. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe and please share it with someone who's passionate about place shaping. Uh, and join me next time as we uncover more stories and strategies for building better places for everyone.