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Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello, and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm
here in the Private Eye office with Adam

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McQueen, Ian Hislop and Justine Smith.

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we're here to discuss a few different
stories that have been in the magazine and

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in the news in the last couple of weeks.

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Later on, we're going to be discussing
a very exciting ombudsman, which

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you may not have heard of, but which
has been cropping up in the pages

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of the eye, an enormous amount.

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Genuinely scandalous the stuff
that's been going on there.

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We'll also be talking about the ongoing
mayhem, uh, reach, uh, owner of the

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mirror and much else besides, but firstly,
the big political news of the week I

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think we need to discuss is your party.

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Ian: which is a party of the left, which
they're searching for a name and they've

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come up with the Judean people's front

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ERs

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and they've, there's been another split
and apparently the others want to call

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it the people's front of Judea, but
then another group saying, you know,

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mentioning Judea in the Labor Party,
probably not as funny as it used to be.

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Andy: It's a fantastic story.

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It glads the heart

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Ian: and it should be on a
podcast called, um, page 94.

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'cause literally this is going on forever.

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If you want a cliche about the
left, it splits immediately, but

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this time it's split before it has
a name, before it's got any funds.

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they've just speeded up the news cycle.

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It's incredibly annoying.

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Adam: actually managed to split even
before they'd denounced, or was it Zara

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Satana initially announced the formation
of this party and said she was gonna

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be co-leading it with Jeremy Corbin.

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He said, hang on.

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No, you're not.

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We haven't decided whether
we're doing this or not.

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I mean, it's literally almost from
before they'd even set up, isn't it?

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Andy: the planning for it, or the
consideration started pretty soon after

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Corbin was suspended from the Labor
Party and it became clear he wasn't

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gonna get back in and he, I think
he and various colleagues wanted to.

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Kind of found a new movement.

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They wanted it to be very
grassrootsy, very democratic.

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, Enter Zara Sultana until recently a
labor mp, and then she was suspended

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from the party over, voting against the
government on the child welfare cap.

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So she and he have been
kind of circling each other.

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They're obviously very
different in lots of ways.

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Ian: except for not liking the
other person in your party, in

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which they seem to be quite similar.

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Andy: do have that in common,
but they, they sort of,

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Ian: they hate each other.

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That's, that's a good start,

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Andy: Ian, according to the statements
that they've released, some of

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them through lawyers, they're
the closest of colleagues and

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they're very, very much reconciled.

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Ian: Oh, I'm glad.

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My closest colleagues
aren't quite that loyal.

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Justine: they want

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you to appear on stage together
on 9th of October, so they really

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need to get it together before
then according to the website.

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Adam: this is gonna be like those
tours of like the Eagles hell

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freezes over tour, isn't it?

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When none of them are speaking or when
the police got back together and they

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heat each other so much, they have
to be go opposite ends of the stage

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and different tour buses, isn't it?

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The Oasis reunion will
have nothing on this.

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Justine: this.

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Should

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help sell tickets though, eh?

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Andy: the current Weeks's Mayhem
is all because Sultana, she

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was, uh, raisin some money.

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Thank you very much.

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Ian: Uh, you are fired.

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Andy: Who

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Adam: Who else do we get to
talk about current affairs

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Andy: Oh my God.

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Adam: Come on, Andy.

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Read the prune.

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Thank you.

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Andy: you.

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So she invited supporters to sign up
as, as members via an online portal.

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And, and she claimed that
on the day of launch she got

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20,000 new members signed up.

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Now for an for any political party,
that would be a great success.

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That'd be a coup.

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Corbin then issued a statement
saying this, you may have received

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an unauthorized email urging
you to sign up to your party.

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Don't sign up, cancel any direct debits.

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the message was co-signed by
the four independent Tempes,

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who we haven't mentioned yet.

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They are the independent alliance.

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So that is Corbin
Sultana, and four others.

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Some ex labor mps one.

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One of them is, is just new in
a newly formed constituency.

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Now.

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Sultana has claimed she was frozen
outta the accounts, and, and I'm

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quoting here subjected to what can only
be described as a sexist boys club.

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I have been treated appallingly
and excluded completely.

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Ian: I know how she feels.

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Andy: And she, she said this was an
attempted coup, and, and, she simply said

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she was trying to, you know, get members
and that those funds would be held by

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a company set up to safeguard the, the
money until the founding conference.

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They haven't had a
starting conference yet.

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I've signed up as one of these apparently
750,000 people who's declared an interest

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in supporting or voting for the party.

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, There are gonna be these big rallies,
which we know is, is often Jeremy's.

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Comfort zone is where he does well.

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He, you know, he thrives on that.

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He likes the, the mood in the room.

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And,

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uh mm-hmm.

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Theoretically, it should be
a great combination, He's

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a man, she's a woman, he's

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Ian: nitrogen and glycerine,

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Andy: but you know, they should
reach lots of different areas.

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So he's 76, she's 31.

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They're at very different ends
of the political age spectrum.

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he's white.

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She's not like there, there should
be this, if not a rainbow coalition,

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then certainly an attempt to reach
lots of different bits of the left.

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But the problem really has been so far.

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Huge schisms have emerged
in, in policy terms

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Ian: it's it's not even
policy though, is it?

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One is what should we call ourselves?

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Two is, are we trusted with
money with the economy?

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Oh dear.

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Um, I'll pay your direct debit back
'cause I she shouldn't have emailed you.

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That doesn't bode well for
a party of government, it?

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Andy: but there is a already a huge
policy range even within the six.

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Mps who are broadly grouped together.

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So for example, we haven't
really talked about the other

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four much, but shock at Adam

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Adam: I love that always just
sounds like the beginning of a

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tabloid headline about me, doesn't

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it?

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Shock.

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Andy: Shock at Adam Behavior.

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Um, but he's argued the new party
shouldn't be anti wealth or anti uh,

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business

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and it shouldn't alienate landlords.

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And I think probably
Corbin and Sultana would.

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Would quite like to alienate landlords.

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basically Sultana has a lot of young,
urban, very progressive left-wing support.

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The others might have a little more
support from potentially more socially

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conservative supporters across the country
who may be more interested in Palestine.

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The other four out of the six are
Muslim politicians and, and their,

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you know, their policies on Palestine
are, I think a substantial part

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of what got 'em elected as mps.

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Adam: Which is I thing that an
awful lot of people would agree on

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now, but I mean, it's not a lot to
establish a rainbow coalition on,

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especially when you've got, as you say.

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Muslim blokes who in a lot of cases
have pretty socially conservative

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views, which are very much at the
opposite of what Zara Saltar is saying.

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And it's a bit like the, the other
Rainbow Coalition that was, uh, George

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Galloway's Respect Party, isn't it?

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Which was kind of a, an alliance
of the, the Socialist Workers Party

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and an awful lot of, kind of Bengal
politicians, East London that they

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were, they weren't kind of comfortable.

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Bedfellows feels like the
wrong term, doesn't it?

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Andy: Galloway has been sniffing
around looking to affiliate with

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your party, whatever it ends up being

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Adam: more egos.

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That's definitely,
definitely what they need.

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More egos and, and, and people
who can't work with anyone else.

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God brilliant.

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Yeah.

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Andy: if all this wasn't enough, potential
fractiousness of the ranks early on,

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what I found really interesting is.

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It shows the difficulty of
setting up a new party for one.

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I mean, it's just very hard.

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It obviously shows something about
the left's love of factions and, and

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you know, ever smaller divisions.

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But I just love the sound of this.

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I, so this is from, I now as one of
the, as member number 750,001, I can

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report to you what I looked up on
their publicly available website.

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They're gonna host huge regional
deliberative meetings where thousands

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of members come together to listen
to each other, debate and revise

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the founding documents face-to-face.

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All members will be able to
comment, suggest changes, and

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track how each document develops.

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That

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is gonna be a heck of a shared document.

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Justine: If they can't decide between
two of them, even the most basic policy

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or how they start or whether they can
charge people yet, then it's gonna be a

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bit tricky getting 680,006, doesn't bode.

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Too well, does it?

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Adam: it does seem like a lot of left
winging politics always seems to go back

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to, they're very, very fond of rallies
and kind of people's assemblies and all

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these ideas of doing things democratically
and talking shop and things.

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But actually getting things done
is a bit of a problem and it, it

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used to be serious for a second.

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I think it is a. Shame because there is
obviously a big gap in British politics

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at the moment for a kind of populous
left wing party because, I mean, Starr

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seems to be attacking so far to the
right that he's, he's took him a full

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week to say it's a bad thing to have
150,000 racists on the street of London.

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Which you think, you know, that's,
that's a sort of fairly obvious from

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where, where, where labor ought to
be, uh, on, on these kind of things.

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I mean, the, the problem I would suggest
is if you are looking for a a, a decent

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left wing party, the person to choose
as a leader might not be the one who

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has proved that he's not very good at
leading a party to electoral victory.

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Twice in the past already

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Ian: he was betrayed
Adam, he was betrayed and,

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Adam: forget.

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I forget.

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It was our fault, wasn't it?

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The press?

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Yes.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Absolutely.

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Sorry.

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Sorry about that guys.

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Ian: And Andy Glibly says, you know, it's
very difficult to set up a new party.

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It isn't Nigel Ferage
does it most weekends.

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He

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has no trouble at all.

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Uh, what is it?

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Friday, there's another one.

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Uh, and the one he's set up at the
moment is the one that's giving

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everyone a massive headache.

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So the idea that it is impossible to
get people to abandon the old parties

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and move to new party just isn't true.

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So what is it about, say,
Jeremy, that makes things very

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difficult, this is a question.

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I mean, Justine, you, you've
been on the left, uh, you've,

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you've worked for the Mirror.

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I've seen you, um, tell
me, who would back them,

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Justine: Um, I think they're gonna have to
get a long way down the line before they

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get any major support from a major outlet.

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I mean, if you look at Zara, Sultana
was part of, enough is enough

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in 2022, if you remember that.

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It was very, very short-lived.

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No, no.

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She joined with Mick Lynch and the
Green Party for a, a grassroots

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left wing political movement.

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Sound familiar?

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Uh, they managed to get 700,000 people
signed up in a very short space of

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time and then disappeared without.

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Trace.

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Andy: and why is that?

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Justine: Um,

237
00:09:31,835 --> 00:09:32,015
well

238
00:09:32,015 --> 00:09:32,345
enough

239
00:09:32,345 --> 00:09:32,495
was

240
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enough.

241
00:09:33,755 --> 00:09:33,845
Yes.

242
00:09:33,929 --> 00:09:37,439
So they got a few rally marches
together and then it just fizzled out.

243
00:09:37,439 --> 00:09:39,239
They just couldn't get
the leadership together.

244
00:09:39,239 --> 00:09:40,919
They couldn't agree on how it would work.

245
00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:45,629
And then they eventually decided it was
never going to be a parliamentary party.

246
00:09:46,173 --> 00:09:46,953
and it just, yeah.

247
00:09:46,983 --> 00:09:48,723
Disappeared, sank without trace.

248
00:09:49,327 --> 00:09:51,032
if we're looking at your party, whatever.

249
00:09:51,567 --> 00:09:55,126
A party is going to be called, at
the moment they've got hundreds of

250
00:09:55,126 --> 00:09:58,426
thousands of people, but they, again,
can't agree even how they're going,

251
00:09:58,426 --> 00:10:02,566
what mechanism their party's gonna
be formed with, whether it's gonna be

252
00:10:02,566 --> 00:10:06,406
an alliance, whether it's gonna be a
parliamentary party, whether it's just

253
00:10:06,406 --> 00:10:08,356
gonna be a grassroots kind of buildup.

254
00:10:08,356 --> 00:10:12,789
Ian: The, the discussion about saying we
are not going to be a parliamentary party

255
00:10:12,898 --> 00:10:15,838
given our current parliamentary system.

256
00:10:15,838 --> 00:10:17,188
How does, how does that work then?

257
00:10:17,188 --> 00:10:19,468
Does that mean we're not
going to be in power ever?

258
00:10:19,866 --> 00:10:22,716
Andy: One of the beneficiaries of this is
gonna be the Green Party who claimed they

259
00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:27,726
got 2000 new members off the back of chaos
among your party and how that was going.

260
00:10:28,338 --> 00:10:29,478
so that's one element of it.

261
00:10:29,658 --> 00:10:32,105
The other thing, just as we
mentioned Farage, I think it's are

262
00:10:32,105 --> 00:10:35,892
Farage and COR been more similar
than we've let ourselves think?

263
00:10:35,892 --> 00:10:37,422
I mean, there's a big thing about.

264
00:10:38,117 --> 00:10:39,437
Jeremy falling out with people.

265
00:10:39,437 --> 00:10:41,267
There's a big thing about
Nigel falling out with people.

266
00:10:41,417 --> 00:10:42,917
They're both absolutely
cracking at a rally.

267
00:10:42,917 --> 00:10:44,927
They're both energized, the
faithful a huge amount, but they're

268
00:10:45,083 --> 00:10:46,607
very, very thin skinned in interviews and

269
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tend to,

270
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uh, not react well to, uh, constructive

271
00:10:49,164 --> 00:10:49,367
Adam: criticism.

272
00:10:49,397 --> 00:10:50,897
Andy: Have they been seen
in the same room together?

273
00:10:50,897 --> 00:10:51,857
That's all I'm saying is

274
00:10:53,747 --> 00:10:55,337
You think it's a case
of beard on, beard off?

275
00:10:55,337 --> 00:10:58,907
Do you, are we, is someone misses
doubt firing this whole situation?

276
00:10:59,835 --> 00:11:01,665
So I think, I think the
Greens will benefit.

277
00:11:01,755 --> 00:11:05,145
Um, we should probably give an
update on what the latest news

278
00:11:05,145 --> 00:11:07,005
is as at time of recording.

279
00:11:07,065 --> 00:11:08,025
I think that's only fair.

280
00:11:08,425 --> 00:11:09,535
Salana has climbed down.

281
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,900
She said she won't be pursuing legal
proceedings against the rest of her

282
00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:18,617
nascent party, despite the baseless and
unsubstantiated allegations against me.

283
00:11:18,707 --> 00:11:20,357
This is all from her
statement I should say.

284
00:11:20,357 --> 00:11:22,667
So there are just a few
cracking phrases in there.

285
00:11:23,177 --> 00:11:24,767
Um, I really like this one.

286
00:11:24,977 --> 00:11:27,017
I'm determined to
reconcile and move forward.

287
00:11:27,017 --> 00:11:31,037
She writes, I'm engaged in ongoing
discussions with Jeremy, for whom

288
00:11:31,157 --> 00:11:33,557
like all socialists of my generation.

289
00:11:34,027 --> 00:11:35,647
I have nothing but respect.

290
00:11:36,247 --> 00:11:39,157
Devastating dev, clearly very much.

291
00:11:39,547 --> 00:11:40,657
Jeremy's old I'm not.

292
00:11:40,762 --> 00:11:41,052
Yeah.

293
00:11:41,057 --> 00:11:43,867
Um, and she finishes by saying we
can all confirm that the conference

294
00:11:43,867 --> 00:11:45,877
will go ahead as planned in November.

295
00:11:45,997 --> 00:11:49,147
So very sorry to everyone who's booked
that tickets 'cause it's evidently not.

296
00:11:49,701 --> 00:11:52,672
There is kind of a genuine, I mean,
Zara Saltana, I have talked to young

297
00:11:52,672 --> 00:11:55,432
people about Zara Sana, and they do
find her very, very inspirational.

298
00:11:55,432 --> 00:11:58,762
And there, there is a sort of
generation now kind of beyond coming

299
00:11:58,762 --> 00:12:01,372
through to voting age, beyond that
whole, that whole cor night thing.

300
00:12:01,372 --> 00:12:02,872
When was 2019, he stepped down.

301
00:12:02,872 --> 00:12:04,462
So we're talking six
years back, aren't we?

302
00:12:04,732 --> 00:12:09,082
Um, so there is, I mean, the potential
for a kind of Alexandra Acaia Cortes

303
00:12:09,082 --> 00:12:12,622
as she, , the De Democrat in, in
America, a really sort of charismatic.

304
00:12:12,687 --> 00:12:15,447
Figure to come through, um,
and, and kind of inspire people.

305
00:12:15,617 --> 00:12:16,262
you've gotta hope there

306
00:12:16,307 --> 00:12:16,452
Adam: might

307
00:12:16,452 --> 00:12:19,510
Ian: be, are you suggesting that
Jeremy is not Bernie Saunders?

308
00:12:21,705 --> 00:12:25,695
'? Um, because that, again, in
itself is, is is typical of you

309
00:12:25,965 --> 00:12:28,065
in undermining Jeremy's position.

310
00:12:28,115 --> 00:12:30,815
Adam: more old men, be they,
Bernie Saunders or Donald Trump or

311
00:12:30,815 --> 00:12:32,440
Jeremy might not be what we need.

312
00:12:32,865 --> 00:12:34,635
As, as going forward, really.

313
00:12:34,635 --> 00:12:36,945
I mean, possibly we have one of
these charismatic figures already.

314
00:12:36,945 --> 00:12:39,675
I mean, we've got, um, Zach Polanski,
the new leader of the Greens,

315
00:12:39,675 --> 00:12:42,225
haven't we, who we profiled in
the last edition of Private Eye.

316
00:12:42,225 --> 00:12:44,115
I mean, he's, he, he seems
quite good fun, didn't they?

317
00:12:44,290 --> 00:12:45,435
Ian: Yes, and I, I'm interested that

318
00:12:45,865 --> 00:12:49,465
Andy's party or your party as
I shall, I shall now call it.

319
00:12:49,615 --> 00:12:53,005
I mean, you used to be quite green,
but then I think you were disappointed

320
00:12:53,005 --> 00:12:56,395
that the Green Party was no longer
interested in the environment.

321
00:12:57,175 --> 00:13:00,295
It had moved on, uh, to
other more important issues.

322
00:13:00,409 --> 00:13:04,132
Andy: there is a, a long running spate
of councils, whoever controls them, which

323
00:13:04,182 --> 00:13:08,412
have declared a climate emergency, which
is very easy to do and takes one meeting.

324
00:13:08,802 --> 00:13:12,492
Uh, then saying, no, I don't think we're
gonna have any wind turbines or Soler

325
00:13:12,492 --> 00:13:14,502
panels in our, in our neck of the woods.

326
00:13:14,502 --> 00:13:15,222
Thanks very much.

327
00:13:15,492 --> 00:13:18,042
We get a lot of dog walkers who
want a nice view of a field.

328
00:13:18,042 --> 00:13:21,642
And so, so that I think is an ongoing
thing and I, I think the greens are

329
00:13:21,642 --> 00:13:24,410
gonna come up against that, you know,
and it's is when you get people who,

330
00:13:24,511 --> 00:13:27,001
for whatever reason, probably very
good reasons, are unhappy with the

331
00:13:27,001 --> 00:13:30,781
current government, want to register
their disapproval in some party sense.

332
00:13:31,276 --> 00:13:33,463
if your coalition expands, it
sometimes expands beyond the

333
00:13:33,463 --> 00:13:35,753
point at which, you are coherent.

334
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:38,090
And that's kind of the, uh,
challenge that, um, that

335
00:13:38,090 --> 00:13:38,960
Adam: Polanski's got, hasn't it?

336
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,400
Because I mean, you're talking
about rainbow coalitions.

337
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,970
We are literally, I mean, the election
results for the Greens last time was some

338
00:13:43,970 --> 00:13:47,570
in rural communities, which is very much
about kind of no pylons and restoring the

339
00:13:47,570 --> 00:13:51,170
countryside and, and, and then one in, in,
in sort of inner city Bristol, which was

340
00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:54,830
very much about kind of much more radical
politics and, and, and, and trans rights.

341
00:13:54,830 --> 00:13:58,370
And, you know, it is quite difficult
to kind of, these aren't things

342
00:13:58,370 --> 00:14:01,430
that necessarily coalesce into
a, into a coalition of people who

343
00:14:01,430 --> 00:14:02,660
are willing to, uh, work together.

344
00:14:02,660 --> 00:14:02,990
Do they?

345
00:14:03,121 --> 00:14:07,741
Ian: if you are expecting coherence when
you vote, then reform may not be for you.

346
00:14:08,746 --> 00:14:12,286
Andy: But I do notice as well that the
Green Party mps who were elected are still

347
00:14:12,286 --> 00:14:14,926
all in the same party and have managed
not to fall out spectacularly with each

348
00:14:14,926 --> 00:14:18,496
other, which is something that neither,
uh, the, uh, the, where we started

349
00:14:18,496 --> 00:14:20,116
off with six reform mps, aren't we?

350
00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:21,016
Where, where were we at now?

351
00:14:21,016 --> 00:14:21,196
Four.

352
00:14:21,196 --> 00:14:22,666
But they're mostly
different ones, aren't they?

353
00:14:22,666 --> 00:14:22,726
I

354
00:14:22,891 --> 00:14:26,461
I think it's, yeah, it's much like
the sugar babes in that they'll,

355
00:14:26,701 --> 00:14:27,691
the numbers will remain the

356
00:14:27,691 --> 00:14:30,961
same line, but the, there's,
there's one cast member who does

357
00:14:30,961 --> 00:14:34,436
remain the playing, which, which
I, I think makes, uh, Nigel Frost.

358
00:14:34,441 --> 00:14:37,436
The, the kesher of this, uh,
this particular setup isn't

359
00:14:40,573 --> 00:14:41,143
Right on.

360
00:14:41,143 --> 00:14:44,713
We come to section number two now,
as promised, it's ombudsman time.

361
00:14:44,953 --> 00:14:48,849
So Justine, first of all, we
should say welcome to your first

362
00:14:48,849 --> 00:14:50,499
official appearance on page 94.

363
00:14:50,529 --> 00:14:53,289
'cause you were on it last year when
you were nominated for the pool foot

364
00:14:53,289 --> 00:14:56,829
award, shortlisted effect, talking about
children's mental health provision.

365
00:14:57,069 --> 00:14:59,878
But that was, you were
outside the tempt pissing in.

366
00:15:00,328 --> 00:15:04,498
And so since you've joined the eye and
you're inside the tempt, pissing out.

367
00:15:04,603 --> 00:15:06,283
Ian: What's a charming metaphor,

368
00:15:07,963 --> 00:15:09,223
Andy: you have been writing about.

369
00:15:09,619 --> 00:15:14,209
lots of things in the back, predominantly,
one of which is the Parliamentary

370
00:15:14,209 --> 00:15:15,709
and Health Service Ombudsman.

371
00:15:15,992 --> 00:15:22,043
Just for anyone who hasn't been paying
attention, can you say what the PHSO is?

372
00:15:22,223 --> 00:15:25,523
Justine: Well, you wouldn't be alone if
you didn't know, because I think during a

373
00:15:25,523 --> 00:15:29,633
survey, something like a third of people
knew what it was and two thirds didn't.

374
00:15:29,633 --> 00:15:34,451
Now, it does serve a very, very
important function, people who have.

375
00:15:34,676 --> 00:15:37,946
Used services, either within the
health service or in government

376
00:15:37,946 --> 00:15:42,476
services who've either had a
very poor service, an unfair one.

377
00:15:42,986 --> 00:15:46,556
Uh, if there's been maladministration
and they've gone to the service

378
00:15:46,586 --> 00:15:50,276
and the service hasn't listened to
their complaint, the almost last

379
00:15:50,276 --> 00:15:52,586
port of call they have is the PHSO.

380
00:15:53,475 --> 00:15:58,660
now the PHSO is supposed to mediate
between whichever organization is being.

381
00:15:59,070 --> 00:16:04,050
Complained about and the complainant,
it is supposed to then either

382
00:16:04,050 --> 00:16:08,790
offer recommendations or in rare
cases, financial compensation.

383
00:16:09,370 --> 00:16:11,105
, It can also lay down reports before.

384
00:16:11,770 --> 00:16:13,540
The government if it thinks
it's really important.

385
00:16:14,223 --> 00:16:15,633
this is important in two ways.

386
00:16:15,633 --> 00:16:18,303
So for the people who are actually
making the complaint, it's

387
00:16:18,303 --> 00:16:19,773
their last place they can go.

388
00:16:20,403 --> 00:16:23,403
And on a second level, they
believe that they don't want

389
00:16:23,403 --> 00:16:24,903
this mistake to be made again.

390
00:16:24,931 --> 00:16:28,298
we all accept, especially within
the NHS, mistakes are made.

391
00:16:28,718 --> 00:16:30,698
Doctors are under pressure,
they're human beings.

392
00:16:30,698 --> 00:16:32,673
But if the same mistakes are being made.

393
00:16:33,218 --> 00:16:36,638
By the same staff in the same
units, then that is systemic.

394
00:16:36,788 --> 00:16:40,238
And if that can be picked up by the
PHSO early, perhaps we wouldn't have so

395
00:16:40,238 --> 00:16:43,208
many huge scandals as we keep seeing.

396
00:16:43,405 --> 00:16:46,165
Andy: one thing you point out
early on is that it's a huge,

397
00:16:46,282 --> 00:16:47,302
public service ombudsman.

398
00:16:47,302 --> 00:16:48,262
It's the biggest in Europe.

399
00:16:48,322 --> 00:16:52,882
It's got 600 staff, spends about
40, 45 million quid a year.

400
00:16:53,262 --> 00:16:57,107
you'd think it would be powerful,
but in the case of patients like.

401
00:16:57,412 --> 00:17:00,442
Alison Brian, for example,
it absolutely has not been.

402
00:17:00,472 --> 00:17:02,752
So, she was a 78-year-old woman.

403
00:17:02,752 --> 00:17:04,432
She needed an urgent operation.

404
00:17:04,672 --> 00:17:08,272
She was promised emergency hip
replacement surgery within a few weeks.

405
00:17:08,752 --> 00:17:11,932
Then due to an administrative
error, she didn't get the operation.

406
00:17:12,262 --> 00:17:16,972
And after 10 months, her son-in-law
said, you know, this is ridiculous.

407
00:17:16,972 --> 00:17:17,812
And he, he stumped up.

408
00:17:17,812 --> 00:17:22,038
He paid 40,000 pounds for a private,
operation on her knee just to help

409
00:17:22,038 --> 00:17:23,718
with the, you know, chronic pain.

410
00:17:23,718 --> 00:17:25,428
She was in, I mean, really, really severe.

411
00:17:25,985 --> 00:17:28,745
Now he assumed that he might
be able to recoup some of the

412
00:17:28,745 --> 00:17:29,915
money he was spending there.

413
00:17:30,363 --> 00:17:31,893
he went to the PHSO

414
00:17:31,921 --> 00:17:34,947
Justine: Well, first of all, they
decided that he hadn't given the NHS

415
00:17:34,947 --> 00:17:39,423
trust that was involved enough of an
opportunity to come back on his complaint.

416
00:17:39,483 --> 00:17:41,223
So he was told to go back to them.

417
00:17:41,793 --> 00:17:45,201
They, um, obfuscated, so
he went back and said.

418
00:17:45,886 --> 00:17:48,166
Uh, we haven't got an answer
from them by that time.

419
00:17:48,166 --> 00:17:49,036
He timed out.

420
00:17:49,096 --> 00:17:53,584
There's a 12 months, time out,
after everything's been exhausted.

421
00:17:54,102 --> 00:17:57,822
so they actually rejected his
complaint on, on that basis.

422
00:17:58,424 --> 00:18:01,664
they also said that if he had the
option of taking legal action,

423
00:18:02,204 --> 00:18:03,499
that they wouldn't consider it.

424
00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:06,314
Now legal action, as we all
know, is difficult and expensive.

425
00:18:06,844 --> 00:18:10,474
Uh, and most people think the PHSO
will be an alternative to legal action.

426
00:18:10,474 --> 00:18:12,754
And do you know, I don't think
that many people want to take

427
00:18:12,754 --> 00:18:14,404
legal action against the NHS.

428
00:18:14,854 --> 00:18:17,164
I think a lot of people feel
very protective about it.

429
00:18:17,164 --> 00:18:18,304
They feel very understanding.

430
00:18:18,304 --> 00:18:19,414
They just want to be heard.

431
00:18:19,414 --> 00:18:23,494
They just want to know that what happened
to them won't happen to someone else.

432
00:18:23,944 --> 00:18:26,344
And the PHSO should offer an alternative.

433
00:18:26,749 --> 00:18:30,649
To expensive litigation, which is
harrowing for people to go through.

434
00:18:30,649 --> 00:18:34,369
It's difficult for, you know, it diverts
resources from the front line for the NHS.

435
00:18:34,849 --> 00:18:38,209
So why tell someone who's coming to
you to ask for some kind of redress

436
00:18:38,209 --> 00:18:39,469
to then take it through the courts?

437
00:18:39,469 --> 00:18:40,723
It makes, no sense, does it?

438
00:18:40,934 --> 00:18:40,994
Ian: The

439
00:18:41,094 --> 00:18:45,524
idea that we we're actually paying 600
people to say I'd go to court if were you,

440
00:18:45,674 --> 00:18:45,854
Yeah.

441
00:18:45,894 --> 00:18:48,294
uh, gives me a bit of a heart attack.

442
00:18:48,384 --> 00:18:48,624
Exactly.

443
00:18:48,684 --> 00:18:49,254
Um,

444
00:18:49,254 --> 00:18:52,164
Andy: I would add there in, you probably
have been sued by 600 different people, so

445
00:18:52,164 --> 00:18:53,574
it's a bit you, I suspect.

446
00:18:53,721 --> 00:18:55,535
just while we're on the initial
thing of talking about these cases,

447
00:18:55,535 --> 00:18:57,035
talk about, um, Naomi Darling?

448
00:18:57,085 --> 00:19:00,805
she was a cleaner from Hereford,
and she went to the dentist.

449
00:19:00,805 --> 00:19:03,355
She was told she needed
some root canal work.

450
00:19:03,362 --> 00:19:06,176
Justine: And it later emerged
that she hadn't even had any,

451
00:19:06,236 --> 00:19:09,022
uh, x-rays and may not have even
needed the work in the first place.

452
00:19:09,072 --> 00:19:11,142
She ended up losing
all of her front teeth.

453
00:19:11,142 --> 00:19:12,342
The Boulogne collapsed.

454
00:19:12,826 --> 00:19:14,679
Got terrible stress about this as well.

455
00:19:14,679 --> 00:19:15,609
She's in a lot of pain.

456
00:19:15,609 --> 00:19:16,599
Terrible, terrible pain.

457
00:19:16,899 --> 00:19:18,369
Ended up losing her job.

458
00:19:18,528 --> 00:19:22,758
Um, so she went to the PHSO
hoping they would help.

459
00:19:23,314 --> 00:19:28,444
Now, the dentist had just appears, moved
from place to place, gathering complaints

460
00:19:28,924 --> 00:19:30,484
and just kept going to different places.

461
00:19:30,484 --> 00:19:34,024
And they, they just said, you just have
to go and find the dentist pretty much.

462
00:19:34,054 --> 00:19:37,174
And, um, get him to get
him to deal with it.

463
00:19:37,174 --> 00:19:39,899
And they just, again,
totally rejected her.

464
00:19:40,619 --> 00:19:44,529
Her complaint, um, until, yeah, and
then eventually they offered her a

465
00:19:44,529 --> 00:19:46,299
very small amount of compensation.

466
00:19:46,414 --> 00:19:46,864
400

467
00:19:46,864 --> 00:19:47,499
Andy: pounds, 400

468
00:19:47,499 --> 00:19:47,829
Justine: pounds.

469
00:19:47,829 --> 00:19:50,229
It's gonna cost her 12,000
pounds to get some new teeth.

470
00:19:50,229 --> 00:19:51,639
She hasn't got any front teeth.

471
00:19:51,639 --> 00:19:55,539
Now, now, for anyone to have their
teeth removed and not be able to

472
00:19:55,539 --> 00:19:59,409
afford to replace them, uh, you
know, the bones will disintegrated.

473
00:19:59,409 --> 00:20:02,949
So it is not a question of her being
able to just replace them easily.

474
00:20:03,309 --> 00:20:06,579
So she's having to go through the rest of
her life with no front teeth, a feeling.

475
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:07,759
Totally depressed.

476
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:10,879
Andy: in the article you wrote
about it, she says, it's ruined my

477
00:20:11,314 --> 00:20:11,734
Justine: she, did.

478
00:20:11,734 --> 00:20:12,004
Yeah.

479
00:20:12,418 --> 00:20:14,488
The whole process left
her feeling demoralized.

480
00:20:14,788 --> 00:20:18,718
She spent years trying to get some
kind of justice and then just gave up.

481
00:20:18,778 --> 00:20:22,498
And like many people who speak to
me about this, they say they come

482
00:20:22,498 --> 00:20:25,228
outta the process feeling a whole
lot worse than when they started.

483
00:20:25,738 --> 00:20:29,248
Not only has it not helped, it's
traumatized them, it's demoralized

484
00:20:29,248 --> 00:20:33,028
them and it's made them feel like
their, their problem is not important.

485
00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:34,380
Andy: And it, it is extraordinary.

486
00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:36,150
I mean, the, the sort of tenacity
these people would have to have

487
00:20:36,150 --> 00:20:36,960
to get things to that stage.

488
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,960
Because as you say, you don't even end
up with p hs O until you've exhausted

489
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,700
all avenues of complaint and all kind of
official things with the initial body that

490
00:20:44,705 --> 00:20:47,400
you, you, you, you are engaged with and,
and their kind of complaints procedure.

491
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:47,790
Do you,

492
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:51,720
uh, and then when you get to the
PHSO, I'm, I, in some of your pieces

493
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,180
you were saying, you know, it, it,
it's sort of seven months even before

494
00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:57,780
they assess your complaint and to see
whether it's worth pushing ahead with.

495
00:20:57,780 --> 00:20:59,760
And, and the numbers of, of
complaints that are actually then

496
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,590
followed through are tiny, aren't

497
00:21:01,610 --> 00:21:01,690
Justine: they?

498
00:21:01,690 --> 00:21:02,250
Yeah, they are.

499
00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:02,610
They are.

500
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:07,327
So, the PHSO gets about
120,000 inquiries a year.

501
00:21:07,837 --> 00:21:10,807
Um, last year it accepted nearly 39,000.

502
00:21:11,497 --> 00:21:14,287
To be considered okay, but
it dropped three quarters

503
00:21:14,287 --> 00:21:15,637
of them at the initial sift.

504
00:21:15,787 --> 00:21:16,957
Just, just drops them.

505
00:21:16,957 --> 00:21:20,137
It has a variety of excuses
it uses to push back on them.

506
00:21:20,647 --> 00:21:24,187
So it agreed to look into 10,000 of them.

507
00:21:24,277 --> 00:21:29,137
Only 722 were given detailed
investigations and of them,

508
00:21:29,467 --> 00:21:30,877
of all of those complaints.

509
00:21:30,877 --> 00:21:36,247
So down from the 38,000 or
so, 464 resolved ending with

510
00:21:36,247 --> 00:21:37,477
the complainant being happy.

511
00:21:37,507 --> 00:21:39,210
Now that is about one in 80.

512
00:21:39,318 --> 00:21:43,548
Yeah, and that's, um, you know, they're
getting 42 million pounds a year and

513
00:21:43,548 --> 00:21:46,938
one in 80 people walk away from there
feeling happy with what's happened.

514
00:21:47,189 --> 00:21:51,599
Ian: And you are suggesting that you
can't account for that by the 79.

515
00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:52,859
Others being whingers

516
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:53,779
who just,

517
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:55,659
who are just looking for money.

518
00:21:56,564 --> 00:21:56,924
Justine: Exactly.

519
00:21:56,924 --> 00:21:58,664
I think if they were looking
for money, they'd be going to

520
00:21:58,664 --> 00:22:00,074
the wrong place in the start.

521
00:22:00,674 --> 00:22:02,384
Um, if they're looking for
justice, it sounds like they're

522
00:22:02,384 --> 00:22:03,434
going to the wrong place.

523
00:22:03,464 --> 00:22:05,354
And this has been a
problem for many years.

524
00:22:05,354 --> 00:22:11,574
The patient's association looked at
the PHSO 11 years ago and, , concluded

525
00:22:11,574 --> 00:22:13,164
that it was just not fit for purpose.

526
00:22:13,264 --> 00:22:18,184
. It's had some internal investigations,
internal reviews that have also found

527
00:22:18,184 --> 00:22:22,024
itself not to be fit in some cases, yet.

528
00:22:22,444 --> 00:22:23,434
Nothing's changed.

529
00:22:23,464 --> 00:22:24,814
It seems to have got worse.

530
00:22:24,814 --> 00:22:28,871
If, if anything, people are still waiting
far too long and then they're having

531
00:22:28,871 --> 00:22:30,041
not getting the results they need.

532
00:22:30,041 --> 00:22:34,301
I'm talking to a woman at the moment who's
been fighting for 13 years to get some

533
00:22:34,301 --> 00:22:38,747
kind of answers as to why her father died
with the hospital, having missed four.

534
00:22:39,437 --> 00:22:42,197
Clear opportunities to
diagnose him for lung cancer.

535
00:22:42,851 --> 00:22:45,459
she has been through
four different ombudsman.

536
00:22:45,939 --> 00:22:49,599
She's just written to the new one,
Paula Sussex, who has come in in August

537
00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:54,201
after a crazy protracted, effort to
try and replace the previous one.

538
00:22:54,681 --> 00:22:58,641
And, um, she hasn't had any joy with
that either her MP's been involved.

539
00:22:59,331 --> 00:23:03,741
Our mp, Rachel Maco, is really concerned
about the PHSO and its ineffectiveness

540
00:23:04,131 --> 00:23:08,541
and says, you know, this is a safety
valve for the NHS and it's not working.

541
00:23:09,021 --> 00:23:12,651
. So there is a parliamentary committee,
which is supposed to oversee it, but

542
00:23:12,651 --> 00:23:14,451
they just don't seem to do anything.

543
00:23:14,451 --> 00:23:19,011
They hear one problem after
another and nothing has been done.

544
00:23:19,011 --> 00:23:23,421
It feels more like people say to me that
they feel like its job is to bat them

545
00:23:23,421 --> 00:23:28,701
away, not to help them and to reduce
the number of compensation claims and.

546
00:23:28,986 --> 00:23:33,516
Instead of actually really listening to
them and taking on board the complaints

547
00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,936
and trying to change the NHS for the
better and ensure mistakes aren't

548
00:23:36,936 --> 00:23:39,126
repeated, it's just to bat them away.

549
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:40,820
Andy: It strikes me that by
hiss very nature, I mean, he's

550
00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:42,410
so huge and unwieldy, isn't it?

551
00:23:42,410 --> 00:23:45,710
Because I would've thought, I mean
a, a a, a sort of one stop body that

552
00:23:45,710 --> 00:23:48,350
deals with all complaints about the
whole of the NHS and as you say,

553
00:23:48,350 --> 00:23:49,490
dental services and things as well.

554
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:52,940
It's an enormous task enough already,
but it also deals with complaints

555
00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:56,660
about, um, you know, the parliamentary
side of it, uh, uh, of its title,

556
00:23:56,780 --> 00:24:01,040
all UK government departments, um,
and other public organizations.

557
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,115
So I was looking at some of
the sort of triumphs that, that

558
00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:04,970
they're, they're talking about in
the new section of their website.

559
00:24:04,970 --> 00:24:07,430
They've been looking into recently
the Windrush compensation scheme

560
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:08,150
that came under there per.

561
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:10,010
A student loans company.

562
00:24:10,010 --> 00:24:11,540
The, the, the charity commission.

563
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,130
All this on top of the health service.

564
00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:16,580
I mean, it's just, it, it seems
sort of too, too huge for a

565
00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:18,170
task for any organization to

566
00:24:18,205 --> 00:24:20,990
Justine: I mean to, yeah, they brought
together the health service and the

567
00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:25,220
parliamentary services some time ago, and
I think from that moment on, it was doomed

568
00:24:25,220 --> 00:24:27,500
never to be able to do its job properly.

569
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:27,890
Really.

570
00:24:28,015 --> 00:24:28,105
Andy: And

571
00:24:28,105 --> 00:24:32,095
West Street is, is is kind of abolishing
various different, I mean, we endlessly,

572
00:24:32,095 --> 00:24:34,645
whenever a new government comes in, we
have a bonfire of the wango, don't we?

573
00:24:34,915 --> 00:24:38,365
But, um, he's getting rid of various,
sort of, um, , lower levels in,

574
00:24:38,365 --> 00:24:39,535
in, in the complaints procedure.

575
00:24:39,535 --> 00:24:39,775
Is that

576
00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:40,040
Justine: Yeah.

577
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,560
There've been lots of layers, but
there's a lot of overlap as well.

578
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:43,385
For example, if you are.

579
00:24:43,925 --> 00:24:46,836
using a service that is funded by
the local government, you have to go

580
00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:48,366
to the local government ombudsman.

581
00:24:48,816 --> 00:24:51,246
If you are in a care home, you
dunno whether you go to the

582
00:24:51,246 --> 00:24:54,156
Health Service Ombudsman or the
local government, OMB Ombudsman.

583
00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:56,406
You might wanna go to the GMC first.

584
00:24:56,406 --> 00:24:59,346
The NMC, the Parliamentary Commissioner.

585
00:24:59,751 --> 00:25:03,433
off com, offstead, the, you know, there
are so many different regulators that

586
00:25:03,433 --> 00:25:07,363
just even working out where to start is
the biggest, you know, is a headache.

587
00:25:07,423 --> 00:25:09,643
And once you start, you can time out.

588
00:25:09,643 --> 00:25:13,423
If you go to the wrong one first and
then you get knocked about within

589
00:25:13,423 --> 00:25:16,613
the system, you might end up timing
out and, and not having any justice.

590
00:25:16,907 --> 00:25:20,207
Andy: is part of this due to the
long tail of COVID and you, from

591
00:25:20,207 --> 00:25:22,607
what you say, it sounds like
the problems go back many years.

592
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:24,049
Justine: COVID obviously hasn't helped.

593
00:25:24,139 --> 00:25:25,009
There is a backlog.

594
00:25:25,009 --> 00:25:27,379
There is definitely a
backlog and everything slowed

595
00:25:27,379 --> 00:25:29,689
down so much during COVID.

596
00:25:30,262 --> 00:25:34,504
there was also a problem, as I said,
with uh, finding a new ombudsman when the

597
00:25:34,504 --> 00:25:36,514
last one ended, their seven year terms.

598
00:25:36,514 --> 00:25:41,504
Rob Bains was coming to the end of his
seven year term, nearly two years ago.

599
00:25:41,598 --> 00:25:43,728
They'd had seven years to
know this was gonna happen.

600
00:25:44,088 --> 00:25:45,821
But they didn't find anyone in time.

601
00:25:45,821 --> 00:25:48,911
So they put an interim in who's only
allowed to stand in for one year.

602
00:25:49,241 --> 00:25:51,611
Even by the end of that year,
they didn't have anyone in place.

603
00:25:51,881 --> 00:25:54,941
So there were several months
where they had no ombudsman and

604
00:25:54,941 --> 00:25:56,261
the whole thing had to freeze.

605
00:25:56,291 --> 00:25:59,501
So, uh, they were already
running behind due to COVID.

606
00:25:59,561 --> 00:26:03,101
And then that just created
even more delays and people

607
00:26:03,101 --> 00:26:04,331
are waiting even longer now.

608
00:26:04,516 --> 00:26:09,226
Andy: And as far as I understand it,
the alternative to this hellish process

609
00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:11,386
is trying to get a judicial review.

610
00:26:11,446 --> 00:26:12,016
Is that right?

611
00:26:12,101 --> 00:26:15,281
Justine: you could potentially have
a lawsuit if that's what you wanted,

612
00:26:15,281 --> 00:26:19,091
but in terms of going through the
legal channels in order to try to

613
00:26:19,091 --> 00:26:23,261
change what's happening, change
policy, uh, have, have it looked at

614
00:26:23,261 --> 00:26:25,871
so that, um, mistakes aren't repeated.

615
00:26:25,871 --> 00:26:28,721
The judicial review is the next solution.

616
00:26:28,751 --> 00:26:31,376
If you don't get what
you want from the PHSO.

617
00:26:31,871 --> 00:26:35,831
Um, but that, as you know,
is a very unwieldy process.

618
00:26:35,831 --> 00:26:39,761
Very expensive, prohibitively
expensive and, and can be quite

619
00:26:39,761 --> 00:26:43,683
traumatic unless you can afford to
pay for very expensive, legal support.

620
00:26:43,914 --> 00:26:47,604
Andy: normally these sections where we,
we sort of diving deep on one particular

621
00:26:47,629 --> 00:26:51,770
Failure, I try and end up by saying,
are there any prospects for improvement?

622
00:26:51,980 --> 00:26:52,940
I mean, I do.

623
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:53,990
Should I bother asking?

624
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:54,230
In this

625
00:26:54,635 --> 00:26:56,885
Justine: I think you need to, we
need to put that to the government,

626
00:26:56,885 --> 00:26:59,435
but that's why I keep going back to,
we keep going back to it, you know,

627
00:26:59,435 --> 00:27:00,605
that's what we do well, isn't it?

628
00:27:00,635 --> 00:27:01,745
We'll keep going back to it.

629
00:27:01,745 --> 00:27:05,345
We keep talking to people and we
keep going to back to the PHSO and

630
00:27:05,345 --> 00:27:06,905
saying, what are you doing about this?

631
00:27:07,505 --> 00:27:11,285
Um, they'll come back to us and say
they've had, uh, an extraordinary increase

632
00:27:11,285 --> 00:27:15,755
in the number of cases coming to them,
but they have also had a 50% increase in

633
00:27:15,755 --> 00:27:17,795
their funding in just the last four years.

634
00:27:17,845 --> 00:27:20,755
Andy: And lots of these cases are
rejected on the grounds of, uh,

635
00:27:20,785 --> 00:27:23,995
lower severity injustice, which
is quite the phrase, isn't it?

636
00:27:24,055 --> 00:27:26,695
Justine: That was only
brought in, in 2021 or two.

637
00:27:26,695 --> 00:27:29,065
And I think that was really
brought in as part of an effort

638
00:27:29,065 --> 00:27:31,135
to clear the backlog from COVID.

639
00:27:31,135 --> 00:27:34,825
So they lifted the threshold rather
than dealing with more cases.

640
00:27:34,915 --> 00:27:35,790
Andy: Yes, they said, um.

641
00:27:36,368 --> 00:27:39,166
we have decided to focus on the more
serious complaints that people bring to

642
00:27:39,166 --> 00:27:41,116
us where they may have faced a big impact.

643
00:27:41,296 --> 00:27:44,716
For example, these may be about a
potentially avoidable death or where

644
00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:46,186
someone has suffered prolonged pain.

645
00:27:46,541 --> 00:27:49,879
Surely losing your front teeth
and having no way of readdressing

646
00:27:49,879 --> 00:27:53,719
that is a significant injustice
that causes significant pain.

647
00:27:53,779 --> 00:27:56,569
Justine: Well, she, I think she
has chronic pain now from that.

648
00:27:56,569 --> 00:27:56,659
Right.

649
00:27:56,719 --> 00:27:59,389
As well as the, you know, the
side, you know, how she feels about

650
00:27:59,389 --> 00:28:03,979
herself going out, you know, for
anyone to lose their front teeth

651
00:28:03,979 --> 00:28:05,179
and not be able to replace them.

652
00:28:05,179 --> 00:28:06,469
It's devastating.

653
00:28:06,469 --> 00:28:09,349
I mean, I don't, I really think it
is, it's not just cosmetic, is it?

654
00:28:10,269 --> 00:28:12,879
It, it, it makes her feel
that she can't go for a job.

655
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,369
You know, she's embarrassed
being at family events.

656
00:28:15,369 --> 00:28:18,009
She thinks people would judge her
and think, you know, she's been in

657
00:28:18,009 --> 00:28:19,779
a, in a, in a fight or something.

658
00:28:20,349 --> 00:28:23,529
So it's really affected her
mentally as well as physically.

659
00:28:23,736 --> 00:28:25,746
Ian: And the other case
is an avoidable death.

660
00:28:27,111 --> 00:28:30,441
which is one of the things they said they
would consider and then they haven't.

661
00:28:30,516 --> 00:28:31,896
Justine: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

662
00:28:31,896 --> 00:28:32,121
It's just

663
00:28:32,181 --> 00:28:32,601
Ian: a detail.

664
00:28:32,986 --> 00:28:33,126
Yeah.

665
00:28:33,846 --> 00:28:34,626
Justine: There'll be, there'll be more.

666
00:28:34,626 --> 00:28:36,576
I've got more in the pipeline I'm afraid.

667
00:28:36,576 --> 00:28:40,776
You know, I have a huge backlog of PHSO
stories and behind every single one

668
00:28:41,196 --> 00:28:46,626
is a story of suffering, injustice,
and people not getting any kind of

669
00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:51,036
audience from the body that they went
to in the first place to help them.

670
00:28:51,203 --> 00:28:54,053
Ian: So if anyone's writing in
with a similar story and Justine

671
00:28:54,053 --> 00:28:59,093
doesn't process it quick enough, um,
I will be acting as the ombudsman

672
00:28:59,423 --> 00:29:00,863
for the backlog

673
00:29:01,073 --> 00:29:01,223
of

674
00:29:01,223 --> 00:29:03,983
Justine: don't expect any response
at all for at least a year.

675
00:29:03,983 --> 00:29:05,213
And if you do, it won't be the right one.

676
00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:10,660
Andy: so time for section number three
now and, uh, it's good news caller,

677
00:29:10,660 --> 00:29:12,010
we always like to end on a light note.

678
00:29:12,010 --> 00:29:14,020
So Adam, what's going on at reach PLC?

679
00:29:14,255 --> 00:29:14,335
Adam: Terrible,

680
00:29:14,755 --> 00:29:16,435
Andy: terrible things yes.

681
00:29:16,735 --> 00:29:18,985
Um, well, I wanna talk specifically,
I mean, reach PLC for those who,

682
00:29:18,985 --> 00:29:23,305
who, who don't know is an enormous
newspaper, um, publishing empire.

683
00:29:23,365 --> 00:29:23,845
Uh, it.

684
00:29:23,845 --> 00:29:28,375
Was, formed from the, the combination of,
uh, Richard Desmond's set of papers, which

685
00:29:28,375 --> 00:29:32,095
were the Daily Express, the Daily Star,
and various celebrity magazines like Okay.

686
00:29:32,335 --> 00:29:35,965
And Trinity Mirror, which as the name
suggests, uh, produced both the Daily

687
00:29:35,965 --> 00:29:40,195
and Sunday Mirror, uh, and also had an
awful lot of, uh, local titles as well.

688
00:29:40,195 --> 00:29:43,885
So, I mean, sort of over 120
different newspapers and websites

689
00:29:43,885 --> 00:29:48,385
around the country kind of come
under reach PLC and ever since 2018

690
00:29:48,385 --> 00:29:50,335
when that takeover took, uh, place.

691
00:29:51,285 --> 00:29:54,855
They've sort of been wicking away at
it, and there've been so many rounds of

692
00:29:54,855 --> 00:29:58,549
redundancies, which we've been cataloging
in successive, issues of private eye.

693
00:29:58,999 --> 00:30:02,629
And, um, it, it does feel a bit like, I
mean, , the latest round of redundancies

694
00:30:02,629 --> 00:30:06,319
are falling particularly hard on the daily
mirror, uh, where an enormous number of

695
00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:07,599
people, including a lot of their top.

696
00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:10,059
And I would say best say best
journalists are at risk of redundancy.

697
00:30:10,533 --> 00:30:12,925
the news from this week, the update
from this week since the last edition

698
00:30:12,925 --> 00:30:16,495
went to print, is that the NUJ Chapel
at the Daily Mirror are saying that

699
00:30:16,555 --> 00:30:19,075
nothing is off the table Now in the
terms of the action they're gonna take

700
00:30:19,075 --> 00:30:22,735
against it, uh, they said the n the
mirror, NUJ Chapel demands that this

701
00:30:22,735 --> 00:30:25,045
six week countdown to destruction must.

702
00:30:25,135 --> 00:30:25,825
Be halted.

703
00:30:25,825 --> 00:30:27,205
I mean, they're not messing
about with all this.

704
00:30:27,475 --> 00:30:28,615
Uh, so nothing is off the table.

705
00:30:28,615 --> 00:30:33,025
Strike action is actually a possibility
on that particular paper at the moment.

706
00:30:33,085 --> 00:30:33,985
So this is the mirror.

707
00:30:34,015 --> 00:30:34,645
This is the mirror.

708
00:30:34,645 --> 00:30:38,095
This is the paper that has survived
Megalomaniacs being in charge of it.

709
00:30:38,095 --> 00:30:41,755
Like Cecil King who tried to lead an
armed coup against the government in

710
00:30:41,755 --> 00:30:44,580
the 1960s, uh, Robert Maxwell, who, uh.

711
00:30:44,875 --> 00:30:47,095
Stole most of the money
from its own pensioners.

712
00:30:47,365 --> 00:30:49,675
Um, and, and of course Piers
Morgan, probably possibly

713
00:30:49,675 --> 00:30:50,035
the worst

714
00:30:50,035 --> 00:30:50,245
of them

715
00:30:50,245 --> 00:30:50,425
all.

716
00:30:52,345 --> 00:30:52,525
Uh,

717
00:30:52,525 --> 00:30:55,855
it got through all that, but um, it
really does look to be in, or it's,

718
00:30:55,855 --> 00:30:58,435
it's journalists certainly feel it's
in rather dire straits at the moment.

719
00:30:58,595 --> 00:31:01,907
So in the last issue of private eye,
I think you said it was something

720
00:31:01,907 --> 00:31:03,737
like 300 roles that were going,

721
00:31:03,842 --> 00:31:08,342
it's 321 roles across the whole of
reach, so, um, that's all the, all the

722
00:31:08,342 --> 00:31:11,132
kind of local papers and things, but
on the national titles, it's falling

723
00:31:11,132 --> 00:31:12,752
disproportionately on the daily mirror.

724
00:31:12,752 --> 00:31:15,272
This time around, I think it's 38
people who have been, got rid of

725
00:31:15,272 --> 00:31:18,542
on the mirror and only one person
on the Express, which, uh, they are

726
00:31:18,542 --> 00:31:19,802
understandably not very happy about.

727
00:31:20,012 --> 00:31:21,962
I should stay, actually, to be fair.

728
00:31:22,487 --> 00:31:25,847
One of the last, um, redundancy
rounds back in 2018 was almost

729
00:31:25,847 --> 00:31:27,017
an exact mirror image of this.

730
00:31:27,197 --> 00:31:29,867
Um, there was something like 70
people we got rid of on the express

731
00:31:29,867 --> 00:31:30,917
and only one person on the mirror.

732
00:31:30,917 --> 00:31:33,557
So maybe they're just thinking
they're sharing things out fairly,

733
00:31:33,557 --> 00:31:36,527
but um, the net result of it is
that there's hardly anyone left

734
00:31:36,612 --> 00:31:40,602
Ian: could one reason for this be that
no one wants to buy any of their papers?

735
00:31:40,812 --> 00:31:42,432
I, I'm just asking.

736
00:31:42,742 --> 00:31:43,872
Andy: Well, a surprisingly

737
00:31:43,872 --> 00:31:45,837
large number of people still do want to go

738
00:31:45,837 --> 00:31:45,957
out

739
00:31:45,957 --> 00:31:46,047
and

740
00:31:46,047 --> 00:31:46,227
buy

741
00:31:46,227 --> 00:31:50,007
the daily mirror, and kind of more
to the point, um, even, uh, Reach's

742
00:31:50,007 --> 00:31:54,867
own bosses admit that 75% of their
revenue comes from actually selling

743
00:31:54,867 --> 00:31:56,667
physical copies of newspapers every day.

744
00:31:57,192 --> 00:32:00,312
People are still going out and buying
copies of those papers, and that's the

745
00:32:00,312 --> 00:32:01,812
only way they found of making things work.

746
00:32:01,962 --> 00:32:04,392
I mean, the extraordinary thing about
we always say, oh, the internet is the

747
00:32:04,392 --> 00:32:07,452
future and news has gone online and,
and the printed press is dead except for

748
00:32:07,452 --> 00:32:13,572
1 1 1 1 Plucky Fortnightly magazine,
um, uh, of Indomitable goals.

749
00:32:13,917 --> 00:32:14,427
Adam: um, still,

750
00:32:14,622 --> 00:32:17,982
Andy: Um, still, still fighting away
as one, one for the asterisk fans.

751
00:32:18,342 --> 00:32:22,122
Um, but, um, no one has yet found
a way other than just charging for

752
00:32:22,122 --> 00:32:25,032
content like you do with newspapers
of making money off the internet.

753
00:32:25,032 --> 00:32:27,102
So there, there is not
the money in advertising.

754
00:32:27,192 --> 00:32:30,672
To sustain any of these businesses
and the solution at, um, at Reach

755
00:32:30,672 --> 00:32:34,002
has been to keep on hiking up the,
uh, cover prices of those newspapers.

756
00:32:34,212 --> 00:32:36,522
They keep going, I mean, in
incrementally sort of 20 p at a

757
00:32:36,522 --> 00:32:38,622
time, uh, every six months or so.

758
00:32:38,682 --> 00:32:41,982
Uh, but also reducing the stuff that's
in there and some of the decisions

759
00:32:41,982 --> 00:32:43,032
that have been made over the mirror.

760
00:32:43,032 --> 00:32:47,502
I mean, the Mirror has really, I
think it's 124 years old, is it now.

761
00:32:47,502 --> 00:32:50,112
It was certainly set up sort
of way, way, way back at the

762
00:32:50,112 --> 00:32:51,222
beginning of the last century.

763
00:32:51,492 --> 00:32:54,402
Um, it's got a hell of a history
behind it as, as a campaigning

764
00:32:54,402 --> 00:32:56,082
and labor supporting newspaper.

765
00:32:56,382 --> 00:32:56,502
Um.

766
00:32:56,787 --> 00:33:00,237
And it just appears to me that they,
the current management just don't

767
00:33:00,237 --> 00:33:01,647
seem to understand any of that at all.

768
00:33:01,647 --> 00:33:02,683
I mean, this time around.

769
00:33:02,683 --> 00:33:05,293
I was gobsmack to see Nick Summer
Lad, who's the investigations

770
00:33:05,293 --> 00:33:07,933
editor on the Daily Mirror, who's
been bringing in scoop after scoop.

771
00:33:07,933 --> 00:33:11,603
For him, it was him that broke the
story about how Nigel Farage financed

772
00:33:11,603 --> 00:33:13,193
or didn't finance the sale of his house.

773
00:33:13,193 --> 00:33:16,556
And, his partner's mysterious
money that she had to, uh,

774
00:33:16,616 --> 00:33:17,659
buy and register in her name.

775
00:33:17,835 --> 00:33:22,005
and it comes a few years after also
they got rid of, um, Andrew Penman, who

776
00:33:22,005 --> 00:33:24,915
was their brilliant kind of consumer
investigations guy who was out there.

777
00:33:24,915 --> 00:33:26,655
scam buster was how he described himself.

778
00:33:26,835 --> 00:33:29,145
He was kind of out there, you know,
finding people who were defrauding

779
00:33:29,145 --> 00:33:32,115
pensioners on the doorstep and dodgy
timeshares and all these things.

780
00:33:32,115 --> 00:33:35,985
So all of the stuff that I think made
it a great paper, they just seem to have

781
00:33:35,985 --> 00:33:38,955
absolutely, I mean, less than no careful,
they seem to be actively opposed to it.

782
00:33:39,470 --> 00:33:39,980
Adam: Justine.

783
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:40,635
Yes, you are.

784
00:33:40,635 --> 00:33:41,595
You are an expert, expert journal.

785
00:33:41,785 --> 00:33:42,475
When, how do you feel?

786
00:33:42,475 --> 00:33:42,495
When I,

787
00:33:42,530 --> 00:33:47,450
Justine: when I got to the mirror, I
think it was in 1995, there was a team

788
00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:52,160
of off diary reporters, four of them
dedicated to investigations, which was

789
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,780
appropriate for the paper that, you know,
had Hugh cud lip and, you know, private

790
00:33:56,780 --> 00:33:58,610
eyes and poor foot at the heart of it.

791
00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:02,340
Uh, so to get rid of their, only
if they do get rid of their only

792
00:34:02,340 --> 00:34:05,400
investigative report, you know, he
has been told his job is a threat.

793
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,810
It's, uh, not confirmed yet.

794
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,640
Um, but if they do get rid of that, that's
a very, very sad day for that newspaper.

795
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,960
And it's, it's long and,
distinguished history.

796
00:34:14,077 --> 00:34:17,497
I'm also very, very sad to hear
there are some, there are some

797
00:34:17,497 --> 00:34:18,847
incredible talent at the mirror.

798
00:34:18,847 --> 00:34:22,717
There really is, and it's been held
together by love and prayer, really

799
00:34:22,717 --> 00:34:26,437
by, uh, some very dedicated journalists
who are ideologically committed to it,

800
00:34:26,437 --> 00:34:29,647
which I don't think you find on all
other newspapers, they could have easily

801
00:34:29,647 --> 00:34:31,027
gone off and made more money elsewhere.

802
00:34:31,027 --> 00:34:33,457
They're there because they respect their
readership and they care about them.

803
00:34:34,318 --> 00:34:37,558
And among them, the, some of the
photographers, Phil Coburn, Phil

804
00:34:37,558 --> 00:34:42,748
Coburn's, a fantastic photographer In
2010, he and colleague Rupert Harmer

805
00:34:42,808 --> 00:34:44,848
were in Helman Province in Afghanistan.

806
00:34:45,508 --> 00:34:50,278
The convoy they were in hit an IED and
um, sadly, Rupert was killed in it.

807
00:34:50,668 --> 00:34:53,038
Phil lost both his legs beneath the knee.

808
00:34:53,608 --> 00:34:54,778
He went back to work.

809
00:34:54,778 --> 00:34:55,798
He's worked ever since.

810
00:34:55,798 --> 00:34:59,753
For them, he is a. Multi-award
winning photographer, he

811
00:34:59,753 --> 00:35:01,013
finds himself on the list too.

812
00:35:01,013 --> 00:35:02,393
And I'm quite frankly

813
00:35:02,393 --> 00:35:03,083
disgusted

814
00:35:03,354 --> 00:35:06,204
Andy: And it's also, I mean, you look at
the, what the plan is for replacing all

815
00:35:06,204 --> 00:35:09,204
of these people, it's effectively, um,
there is an argument to be made if you

816
00:35:09,204 --> 00:35:12,684
own 120 different newspapers for a certain
amount of kind of sharing of resources

817
00:35:12,684 --> 00:35:14,244
and, and possibly even copy between them.

818
00:35:14,244 --> 00:35:17,514
But the plan at the moment seems
to be that, uh, maybe the first

819
00:35:17,514 --> 00:35:21,204
15 pages of the Express and the
mirror will be their own stuff.

820
00:35:21,594 --> 00:35:23,574
Uh, and the rest of it
will just be shared copy.

821
00:35:23,604 --> 00:35:25,794
Um, then they're not touching
the politics teams, so.

822
00:35:25,884 --> 00:35:29,304
Mean that would be complete insanity
because the, the express is still

823
00:35:29,304 --> 00:35:30,684
really sort of rabidly Tory.

824
00:35:30,684 --> 00:35:33,504
Pretty much the only rabidly Tory
paper out there at the moment 'cause

825
00:35:33,504 --> 00:35:36,744
the male and the, um, the, the, the
telegraph seem to be lunging more

826
00:35:36,744 --> 00:35:38,184
and more in the direction of reform.

827
00:35:38,364 --> 00:35:42,594
But, uh, and the mirror of course is at
least it's labor supporting a critical

828
00:35:42,594 --> 00:35:45,714
friend to labor pretty coming slightly to
the left of where the Labor party is now.

829
00:35:45,984 --> 00:35:48,054
So they have had the sense so far.

830
00:35:48,224 --> 00:35:51,104
Not to try and meld those two things
together and just have the same political

831
00:35:51,104 --> 00:35:54,614
outlook, um, a across both of them,
but the rest of it is gonna be largely

832
00:35:54,614 --> 00:35:56,294
shared copy across all the papers.

833
00:35:56,514 --> 00:35:58,494
Can I just ask, are they deep in the red?

834
00:35:58,554 --> 00:36:00,894
I know you say that lots of
people are still buying it, but.

835
00:36:01,449 --> 00:36:02,859
I'm sure it's expensive to run.

836
00:36:02,979 --> 00:36:04,509
What, what are the accounts looking like?

837
00:36:05,024 --> 00:36:06,254
Pretty good if you ask

838
00:36:06,279 --> 00:36:06,339
Adam: the

839
00:36:06,339 --> 00:36:06,939
shareholders.

840
00:36:07,029 --> 00:36:10,479
Justine: Indeed, uh, shareholders are
paid more than 11% dividends, which

841
00:36:10,479 --> 00:36:12,759
is higher than any FSE 100 company.

842
00:36:12,901 --> 00:36:13,291
Ian: and

843
00:36:13,291 --> 00:36:16,741
the money sloshing around in
there is dependent on sales

844
00:36:16,741 --> 00:36:18,211
of the physical product.

845
00:36:18,211 --> 00:36:20,311
I just wanna make this absolutely clear.

846
00:36:20,581 --> 00:36:25,201
The print version is sustaining
a profitable organization.

847
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,490
Andy: what is the rationale
that's been given for these

848
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,130
300 roles under Threat 3 21?

849
00:36:30,297 --> 00:36:31,912
effectively it's more
money for shareholders.

850
00:36:32,677 --> 00:36:33,517
But what have they said?

851
00:36:33,547 --> 00:36:34,177
What have they said?

852
00:36:34,177 --> 00:36:37,237
The reason is, is it that we are, we are
integrating and we're, you know, we're

853
00:36:37,237 --> 00:36:38,497
making things better for the future.

854
00:36:38,497 --> 00:36:38,977
What is it?

855
00:36:39,066 --> 00:36:42,366
Justine: they believe the future's digital
and they believe the future is in video.

856
00:36:43,026 --> 00:36:45,096
So they want much more video content.

857
00:36:45,096 --> 00:36:45,816
Is that right, Adam?

858
00:36:45,996 --> 00:36:46,326
Andy: Yes.

859
00:36:46,326 --> 00:36:46,506
Yeah.

860
00:36:46,506 --> 00:36:46,716
Yeah.

861
00:36:46,716 --> 00:36:49,746
There was a big thing that happened
in about 2015 when a lot of newspaper

862
00:36:49,746 --> 00:36:53,616
organizations, media organizations across
the board pivoted to video very famously

863
00:36:53,616 --> 00:36:57,366
because the Facebook algorithm changed
and supposedly video was the great future.

864
00:36:57,366 --> 00:37:00,966
And, and no one seemed to stop to question
whether a load of sort of print hacks,

865
00:37:01,266 --> 00:37:04,326
uh, who'd been writing for a living for
the whole of their careers would actually

866
00:37:04,326 --> 00:37:06,071
be the best at producing videos or maybe.

867
00:37:06,431 --> 00:37:08,441
Maybe we could sort of leave
that to broadcasters and

868
00:37:08,441 --> 00:37:09,461
people who actually do that.

869
00:37:09,761 --> 00:37:13,351
Uh, but, um, as ever with a lot of
reaches um, tactics, they seem to have

870
00:37:13,351 --> 00:37:14,701
caught onto this about 10 years later.

871
00:37:14,701 --> 00:37:17,131
So yes, they've decided that
video, podcasts, I mean, I'm not

872
00:37:17,131 --> 00:37:20,131
gonna snag off podcasts being
is how, how I'm here doing one.

873
00:37:20,341 --> 00:37:22,201
They've decided, oh, which
obviously are a growth area.

874
00:37:22,201 --> 00:37:24,931
So they're doing a lot of that, but
also a lot more video reporting rather

875
00:37:24,931 --> 00:37:29,011
than concentrating on, as we say, to
reiterate again, the written words

876
00:37:29,011 --> 00:37:31,141
that bring in 75% of their income.

877
00:37:31,166 --> 00:37:31,226
So

878
00:37:31,367 --> 00:37:35,087
Justine: So they are creating new jobs,
aren't they, in the kind of video arena?

879
00:37:35,212 --> 00:37:35,752
Andy: They are.

880
00:37:35,842 --> 00:37:39,022
And they will be much much lower
page jobs as well for younger people,

881
00:37:39,022 --> 00:37:40,342
which I'm sure is also an attraction.

882
00:37:40,492 --> 00:37:43,372
But the other thing they decided is
the future is, is just the number of

883
00:37:43,372 --> 00:37:45,142
clicks they get on website stories.

884
00:37:45,142 --> 00:37:49,552
And that leads to what, uh, makes
the bosses at, um, at Reach Piers

885
00:37:49,552 --> 00:37:51,982
North and David Hickerson very
cross when we call it click bait.

886
00:37:52,402 --> 00:37:55,882
But honestly, it really, really
cannot be described as anything else.

887
00:37:55,882 --> 00:37:57,082
you any examples?

888
00:37:59,122 --> 00:37:59,362
Adam: funny

889
00:37:59,362 --> 00:37:59,452
Andy: you

890
00:37:59,452 --> 00:38:00,172
should ask Ian.

891
00:38:00,262 --> 00:38:03,982
I wondered whether you might like
a quick reach PLC clickbait quiz.

892
00:38:03,982 --> 00:38:05,182
What the hell are they talking

893
00:38:05,195 --> 00:38:05,392
Adam: about?

894
00:38:05,392 --> 00:38:06,022
Yes.

895
00:38:06,417 --> 00:38:06,637
Yes.

896
00:38:07,252 --> 00:38:07,852
Andy: Okay.

897
00:38:08,272 --> 00:38:09,322
Question number one.

898
00:38:09,322 --> 00:38:12,292
This is a recent headline which
went across all of the uh, local

899
00:38:12,292 --> 00:38:13,912
papers, uh, in reaches stable

900
00:38:14,092 --> 00:38:20,602
drivers told to place conquers in car
in September or face 2,500 pound fines.

901
00:38:21,097 --> 00:38:23,467
Conquers, what the hell are they on about?

902
00:38:24,422 --> 00:38:24,642
uh.

903
00:38:25,087 --> 00:38:26,587
They deter spiders, don't they?

904
00:38:26,917 --> 00:38:27,397
Adam: We have

905
00:38:27,472 --> 00:38:27,982
Andy: winner.

906
00:38:28,042 --> 00:38:28,252
This

907
00:38:28,252 --> 00:38:28,402
is

908
00:38:28,402 --> 00:38:28,822
incredible.

909
00:38:28,822 --> 00:38:33,502
I think this is probably best expressed
the convoluted process by which someone

910
00:38:33,502 --> 00:38:37,132
got to that as a clickbait headline is
perhaps best explained by the correction.

911
00:38:37,132 --> 00:38:38,542
They were obliged to publish exactly

912
00:38:38,542 --> 00:38:39,292
a week later,

913
00:38:39,532 --> 00:38:44,692
and they said, um, in fact, the potential
fine relates to dangerous driving.

914
00:38:45,227 --> 00:38:50,657
If a driver should react on spotting
a spider in their car while driving.

915
00:38:50,894 --> 00:38:53,834
And experts, there's a lot of experts
who appear in stories like this.

916
00:38:53,834 --> 00:38:54,794
Unnamed experts.

917
00:38:54,974 --> 00:38:58,094
Experts had suggested placing
a conquer in the vehicle, which

918
00:38:58,094 --> 00:38:59,594
is believed to deter spiders.

919
00:38:59,714 --> 00:39:02,294
And then the corker, we are
happy to clarify 'cause.

920
00:39:02,416 --> 00:39:04,546
I don't really believe
the thing about conquers.

921
00:39:04,546 --> 00:39:05,956
I know a lot of people swear by it.

922
00:39:06,046 --> 00:39:08,686
I do do it myself, and I have
actually crashed my car when

923
00:39:08,686 --> 00:39:10,096
an insect landed on me, so,

924
00:39:10,516 --> 00:39:10,966
Adam: okay.

925
00:39:10,971 --> 00:39:11,191
Yeah.

926
00:39:11,391 --> 00:39:11,751
I mean, really?

927
00:39:11,986 --> 00:39:12,406
Andy: Yeah.

928
00:39:12,466 --> 00:39:13,006
Were you fine?

929
00:39:13,696 --> 00:39:14,266
Uh, no.

930
00:39:14,266 --> 00:39:16,546
I did pay the damages to
the other person's car.

931
00:39:18,676 --> 00:39:20,326
It was a really big insect in my defense.

932
00:39:20,326 --> 00:39:20,836
Let's carry on.

933
00:39:20,836 --> 00:39:21,271
Let's on.

934
00:39:21,331 --> 00:39:21,661
Okay.

935
00:39:21,661 --> 00:39:24,211
The next one is also a
pretty scary headline.

936
00:39:24,211 --> 00:39:27,512
It's, if you haven't, um, yet faced
your 2,500 fines for not carrying

937
00:39:27,512 --> 00:39:30,542
your conquer with you, then you should
be warned that Lloyd's, Barclay's,

938
00:39:30,542 --> 00:39:34,862
and NatWest customers are urged
to close account within 48 hours.

939
00:39:34,862 --> 00:39:38,162
Customers of some of the nation's,
most frequented banks have been.

940
00:39:38,397 --> 00:39:41,367
Issued a 48 hour notice
to close their account.

941
00:39:41,817 --> 00:39:42,987
Did you get this notice?

942
00:39:42,987 --> 00:39:43,017
Uh,

943
00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:43,518
Justine: no.

944
00:39:43,518 --> 00:39:45,293
I am with one of those
banks and I missed that.

945
00:39:45,993 --> 00:39:46,813
Do I need to go now?

946
00:39:47,163 --> 00:39:47,313
Andy: I

947
00:39:47,313 --> 00:39:47,733
think you are.

948
00:39:47,733 --> 00:39:48,303
All right.

949
00:39:48,303 --> 00:39:52,245
Because it turns out that actually all
it is was a press release from a price

950
00:39:52,245 --> 00:39:55,130
comparison website pointing out there
are some better savings rates available.

951
00:39:55,850 --> 00:39:56,990
From other banks.

952
00:39:56,990 --> 00:39:58,820
There is no 48 hour notice.

953
00:39:58,970 --> 00:40:00,470
Nothing has been issued.

954
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,870
It's just complete.

955
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:05,420
And it was a very, very boring
financial press release,

956
00:40:05,420 --> 00:40:06,950
stressed up as that warning.

957
00:40:07,025 --> 00:40:11,045
I do find that these stories, they
do, um, they do engage me quite a

958
00:40:11,045 --> 00:40:12,995
lot because I read them thinking.

959
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:15,710
Wait, this isn't, this isn't at
all what the headline promised me.

960
00:40:15,710 --> 00:40:17,720
So maybe they're trying to
drive deeper reading play.

961
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:19,850
If the headline tells you
accurately what's in the article,

962
00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:21,170
you sort of know it already.

963
00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:23,510
And at the end of that deeper
reading, do you think, well, this is

964
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:24,920
clearly, clearly

965
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:25,790
a quality news

966
00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:28,700
site that I want to read more
stuff from, or do you feel slightly

967
00:40:28,700 --> 00:40:31,130
cheated and like they're taking
the mickey out of you a bit?

968
00:40:31,172 --> 00:40:34,216
Ian: Well, I'm quite interested
in the idea of Andy crashing a car

969
00:40:35,116 --> 00:40:35,606
because

970
00:40:35,696 --> 00:40:37,261
a giant insect landed on him.

971
00:40:37,441 --> 00:40:43,201
I mean, if this podcast was about anything
interesting that would be headlining it,

972
00:40:43,661 --> 00:40:46,206
Andy: it's such an embarrassing memory
and it's from the last two years as well.

973
00:40:46,541 --> 00:40:47,801
Let's just, let's plow on.

974
00:40:47,891 --> 00:40:48,611
On we go.

975
00:40:49,078 --> 00:40:54,598
Potatoes will stay sprout free for months
and the months is an inverted commas.

976
00:40:54,598 --> 00:40:57,838
I'm not sure whether that's relevant
or not for months by storing them

977
00:40:58,048 --> 00:41:00,928
in an unusual kitchen location.

978
00:41:01,078 --> 00:41:03,583
Can you guess what that unusual
kitchen location might be?

979
00:41:04,558 --> 00:41:04,903
Justine: is it

980
00:41:06,283 --> 00:41:07,483
Andy: It is the fridge.

981
00:41:08,383 --> 00:41:11,173
And I, can tell you that the mirror,
because this one was actually from the

982
00:41:11,173 --> 00:41:14,743
mirror, the mirror was so thrilled with
this life hack that they ran it in May

983
00:41:14,893 --> 00:41:18,043
and then again in June and again in July.

984
00:41:18,283 --> 00:41:21,223
And presumably the potatoes from
May are still looking fantastic

985
00:41:21,223 --> 00:41:22,393
in that unusual location.

986
00:41:22,503 --> 00:41:25,888
Ian: I, I think I take things too,
literally, I thought if the potatoes

987
00:41:25,888 --> 00:41:29,578
are sprout free, it means you just
store them not near any sprouts

988
00:41:31,658 --> 00:41:31,988
Andy: and you're away.

989
00:41:32,647 --> 00:41:33,307
just quickly.

990
00:41:33,307 --> 00:41:34,237
Wasn't there a thing about.

991
00:41:34,242 --> 00:41:37,752
Was this reach, it was them
having to link to other articles,

992
00:41:37,752 --> 00:41:38,542
or was that someone else?

993
00:41:38,602 --> 00:41:39,772
Oh no, that was extraordinary.

994
00:41:39,772 --> 00:41:42,202
That was one of the many brilliant
editorial in innovations that

995
00:41:42,202 --> 00:41:43,222
have been brought in by reach.

996
00:41:43,252 --> 00:41:46,462
Um, they said, um, that every story
that went, every news story that went

997
00:41:46,462 --> 00:41:50,362
on the website had to contain a link in
the third paragraph to another story.

998
00:41:50,392 --> 00:41:51,532
Nothing unreasonable about that.

999
00:41:51,532 --> 00:41:54,082
You know, you wanna keep people on your
site, send 'em to another relevant story.

1000
00:41:54,502 --> 00:41:56,332
The word relevant, not the case.

1001
00:41:56,902 --> 00:42:00,412
This was not just a story that the editor
might think, uh, was, was relevant.

1002
00:42:00,412 --> 00:42:03,682
It was one from a list that was
sent out by management every day.

1003
00:42:04,027 --> 00:42:05,947
Didn't matter what it was, you
just had to cram it in there.

1004
00:42:06,157 --> 00:42:09,067
So it ended up with some
extraordinary juxtapositions.

1005
00:42:09,067 --> 00:42:13,448
My favorite one of all of them was, a
story about a family who was stopped

1006
00:42:13,448 --> 00:42:16,928
from boarding at East Midlands Airport
because, uh, the passport was damaged.

1007
00:42:17,298 --> 00:42:18,288
And paragraph three began.

1008
00:42:18,408 --> 00:42:20,748
This comes after an octopus,
climbed out an aquarium tank

1009
00:42:20,748 --> 00:42:22,068
and tried to eat boys six in

1010
00:42:22,068 --> 00:42:22,488
front of his

1011
00:42:22,488 --> 00:42:24,108
mom, not

1012
00:42:24,108 --> 00:42:25,518
at Eastern Airport,

1013
00:42:25,578 --> 00:42:25,668
I

1014
00:42:25,668 --> 00:42:25,908
think

1015
00:42:25,908 --> 00:42:26,028
in

1016
00:42:26,073 --> 00:42:26,613
Adam: Florida.

1017
00:42:26,818 --> 00:42:29,518
Andy: but but it just It just came you go.

1018
00:42:29,758 --> 00:42:33,118
It came after, which
literally temporarily is

1019
00:42:33,153 --> 00:42:33,603
Adam: true.

1020
00:42:35,163 --> 00:42:36,333
Andy: I think journalism's safe,

1021
00:42:37,438 --> 00:42:40,798
they have, I would like to say,
abandoned this plan now possibly because

1022
00:42:40,798 --> 00:42:42,298
three issues of private eye running.

1023
00:42:42,838 --> 00:42:46,012
We, ran examples of quite
how, how silly this was.

1024
00:42:46,072 --> 00:42:47,872
Uh, and it has now been
abandoned in that one

1025
00:42:48,687 --> 00:42:49,617
Spoil sport.

1026
00:42:49,791 --> 00:42:56,433
Okay, that is it for this edition
of page 94, which comes after a man

1027
00:42:56,433 --> 00:42:59,493
is eaten by a Wasp in Midlothian.

1028
00:42:59,553 --> 00:43:01,233
Um, thank you so much for listening.

1029
00:43:01,233 --> 00:43:05,043
If you'd like to get, uh, more
fantastic stories, mort stories like

1030
00:43:05,043 --> 00:43:06,910
Justine's brilliant ones about the PHSO.

1031
00:43:07,336 --> 00:43:09,826
The magazine can be found on newsstands.

1032
00:43:09,826 --> 00:43:14,146
You can either go to private hyen.co
uk if you're willing to, uh, make

1033
00:43:14,146 --> 00:43:16,786
the commitment to an extremely
reasonably priced subscription.

1034
00:43:16,936 --> 00:43:19,156
Or you can just go to your nearest
news agent and get a copy of

1035
00:43:19,156 --> 00:43:21,706
private eye, lots of jokes, lots
of cartoons, lots of stories.

1036
00:43:21,736 --> 00:43:22,336
It's great.

1037
00:43:22,336 --> 00:43:23,116
Go and do it now.

1038
00:43:23,496 --> 00:43:25,536
thanks to all of today's contributors.

1039
00:43:25,536 --> 00:43:27,606
Thanks to Matt Hill of
Rethink Audio for producing.

1040
00:43:27,606 --> 00:43:28,836
And thank you to you for listening.

1041
00:43:28,896 --> 00:43:29,526
Bye for now.