>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, A, work with the Jesuits in

Britain. I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s, and I

used to live in a Jesuit young adult community. We

all live hectic lives and often don't get time to

reflect on what's happening both to us and around

us. This podcast is meant to help you take a

moment to stop and think about where you are,

where you're going, and where your relationship

with God fits into it all. Every week, I meet a

new guest who tells me about something they

experienced which changed their life forever. And

by talking about the things they wish they'd

known, we'll explore the idea that God is in all

things. And we'll talk about the part that faith

plays in navigating life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Susan, who works in

communications and is a freelance writer. She used

to study in Nottingham and, And lives there now.

she speaks about friendship and boundaries. I

really love talking to Susan because she reminds

me the importance of communicating boundaries,

even in a friendship. So, Susan, what drew you to

Nottingham?

>> Susan: I have a bit of a funny history of Nottingham. So

I was born in Nottingham, and we moved back to

Ghana, but my godparents live there. So it's a

city that I've been to a few times. And growing up

in Brighton, it was not very diverse, so I wanted

to pick a university city that was more culturally

diverse. So, yeah, that was, like, the main reason

that I ended up going to Nottingham.

>> Julia: And so how did it feel once you got there?

>> Susan: I loved it. I think it's such a big city. It feels

so much bigger than Brighton. And it was just. The

Midlands is just so different from the south in so

many ways. So, yeah, it was. Yeah, I really

enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Julia: Was it, easy to make friends?

>> Susan: No. I think everyone says that in your 20s and

university is, like, the best time in your life

and you're going to make so many friends. And I

think I was. I still think I was, like, quite like

a shell of myself when I got to university. So I

think that I just stuck to the people who were

just physically close to me, rather than actively

trying to make friends. And I moved to Nottingham

because it was. I thought, okay, there's a lot

more diversity. I'm going to make black friends.

I'm going to meet a lot of black people. But my

course was still very white, so I didn't. Yeah, I

didn't really make a lot of friends until I'd Say,

my final year. So I did a year abroad in France in

my third year. and then when I came back, everyone

I knew had left, so. So it kind of forced me to

actually have to look for community. so I'd say

that was the year when I actually started to make

friends.

>> Julia: M. I was kind of intrigued by that because, one of

my best friends now, she went off and did a year,

in France and Spain. She moved and then she came

back and she had a similar experience. and

actually I was the year below her until then. So

then we came, ended up being final year together

and that's when our friendship really formed. Is

that how you kind of made friends or was it just.

>> Susan: Yeah, so I think. I think a lot of it was to do

with the year abroad. so I ended up in a village

in France that was really. It was just in the

middle of nowhere. and it forced me to. And I was

also teaching. so I became a lot more confident

after that year. and so I think coming back, I was

more. I just had, like, a better sense of self.

and so, yeah, I think that that really helped.

Like, one of my good friends now was someone I sat

next to in a politics lecture and just started

talking to in my final year, in the first week

back. so. And I don't think that's something I

would have really done before.

>> Julia: Do you think that kind of sense of self is

something that people need to gain in order to

make friends?

>> Susan: Oh, that's a good question. not necessarily. I

think I have a better understanding of myself and

I accept myself more because of my friends, to be

honest. so I don't think it's necessarily

something that you have to have before. But I do

think the advantage of being accepting of yourself

is that you're more likely to attract people who

are really your people, rather than pretending to

be someone else and then might end up with people

that are not really people that you would actually

really gel with.

>> Julia: That is really interesting because I remember when

I was much younger, my mum talking to me about,

when you go to school, you make friends with the

people that are at school and you might not have

that much in common with them. You're just in the

same location because you're all going to school

together. But then when you get to university, you

can kind of filter down and you can find people

that you have more in common with and then they

become your friends and those friendships become

closer. I guess one of the things that I'm Always

thinking about is in this podcast is there always

seems to be drawing out of people wanting to find

community and that real need in humanity. Did you

find your sense of community in your family? Final

year?

>> Susan: I was starting to. So final year was still quite

tough for me. in terms of my mental health, I

still struggled with, I have ocd and I think that

was the year that might have been the year I was

formally diagnosed and was struggling with

depression. But I was starting to, my church was a

huge factor in that. so before I'd been going to a

church that was just the church that a lot of

people in CU were going to and they had like a

free bus there. So I just didn't do a church

search. So when I came back and I actually started

looking for churches, the church that I ended up

going to, which is the church I go to now, was the

church where I actually started to make friends. A

lot of my friends in final year, were actually

international students ironically. So I think it

was, we still keep in touch, but it was, yeah, it

was harder to actually like form those connections

knowing that people are going to go back home.

>> Julia: I guess you're one of those people that's got

little bits of their hearts all over the world.

>> Susan: Yeah, I like that. Yeah.

>> Julia: so did you find university kind of a lonely time?

>> Susan: Yeah, I think so. I don't know, it's hard to say

now because there were so many parts of it that

were so great. I loved my course. I did student

radio and I loved that I did student journalism.

That was so fun. And I do still have one or two

friends from that time. but I think the day to day

of it felt lonely and it felt like I had people

that I would see in lectures and people I'd see on

Sunday, but it didn't feel like I was doing life

with people. And then I think that feeling was

also, was magnified by the stuff that I was

dealing with personally as well, which made it

feel lonelier.

>> Julia: So did loneliness teach you anything about

friendship and faith?

>> Susan: Yeah. So, I'd say the time where I really had to

grapple with loneliness was probably after

university because I think even at university with

the day to day, you're still surrounded by people

and you're still surrounded by people your age.

there's still opportunities to connect with

people. Even if it is superficial, it's still, you

still value those connections. When I left

university and moved back to Brighton, I just

really felt like isolated. I had maybe one or Two

friends from back home. But I didn't realize how

intense loneliness could feel. I had days where I

just felt like I was going crazy because it just

felt like I was talking to myself and really had

no one to talk to. And that experience, I think

made my relationship with Jesus feel very real.

because I think that's when I started to

understand what it is to talk to Jesus all the

time. Because I was in my head all the time. And

then in hindsight now I'm like, I was praying, but

I was just talking to Jesus all of the time about

everything. And it felt like I had no one else to

talk to. And I understood what it was to have

Jesus with you at your lowest and in the Valley

and what that actually looks like on a day to day,

and what it feels like to have Jesus very close,

speaking to you and actually feeling held by God.

So I think that's what it taught me about my

faith, what it taught me about friendships. I

think actually the importance of having deep

friendships because even at university you have

these. I say superficial, but that's not, I don't

mean that in a bad way. because if I wanted to,

for example, I did the film show on student radio.

And so there were always people who were, down to

like go to the cinema and watch a film. So I used

to have people to like, do things with in that

sense. And I still, I really valued that. But

actually being lonely taught me that you need

people who will be with you in the Valley. and

when you feel really low, you need people who

really know you so that you feel very held. Yeah.

A theolone has probably taught me that if that

makes sense.

>> Julia: That absolutely does make sense. And I get what

you mean about you need to have that kind of fun

friend so that sometimes you can just like switch

off and just go do something fun like go to the

cinema or. Yeah, something else social that people

do. Go to a cinema or the theater or something

like that. So how did your friendship with Jesus

shape how you related to others then?

>> Susan: I'd say I learned in that season that Jesus is my

friend. and the way in which he has been my friend

taught me what friendship should look like. so I

spoke about feeling very held by Jesus, feeling

literally encouraged by the Holy Spirit. The Holy

Spirit also felt very real in the sense of what it

is to be nudged by the Holy Spirit, convicted by

the Holy Spirit. I felt what it is to go to Jesus

to hear truth about yourself when you're filling

your mind with Lies. And I think now those are all

things that I think a good friend should be to

others. Yeah.

>> Julia: So after your time in Brighton, you went back to

Nottingham. Were you, like, drawn back to

Nottingham, or did it just feel like I'm not in

the right place in Brighton so I need to go

somewhere else?

>> Susan: Yeah. So I definitely told myself, I want to go

back to Nottingham. I, think it's just because it

was the last place I'd been where I was starting

to make friends. and so I. One of my best friends

is in Nottingham and was there at the time. So I

thought, yeah, I want to go back. So when I was

applying for jobs, I wanted a remote job that

would mean I could live anywhere. and so, yeah,

that's why I went back and I went back to my

church. and then, yeah, went from there.

>> Julia: And was it what you were expecting?

>> Susan: Yeah, I think it's exceeded my expectations in

terms of how I found community. But, yeah, I don't

know if I had many expectations in the sense of I

just knew I had to leave, I knew I had to go, and

moving out of home was just. It's just a time

where I just really became my own person. And I

feel like I really grew up, but I don't know if I

was expecting that to happen. but, yeah, I just

knew I had to go.

>> Julia: Do you have any top tips on how to make friends or

how do you personally make friends?

>> Susan: Yeah, I'd say you really have to put yourself out

there. It can feel very cringe to feel like, I, I

want to make friends. but I learned that a lot of

people feel that way, and there's nothing wrong

with that. First year of uni really teaches you

that because nobody knows anyone. And so walking

around Freshers Week, you just have conversations

with absolutely anyone because you have to,

because nobody knows anyone. So, But I think

that's good. So I think you do have to put

yourself out there. When I moved back to my

church, like I said, I had one really good friend,

but she wasn't always around, so I couldn't, like,

hold on to her. So I had to. I, joined teams at

church, and whenever there was an invitation to do

anything social at that time, I would say yes. And

that was just a way to meet all kinds of people.

So I think you have to put yourself out there.

Another thing I would say is you shouldn't have

expectations on the type of person you think

you're going to be friends with, because you just

don't know, you just don't know who you're going

to connect with. And I think you have to be quite

open minded. so one thing I'd say that I did well

was not thinking, oh, I don't know if I'll really

get on with that kind of person. If I'd get an

invite to do something or to go to the park or

whatever, I'd just go and just see. And yeah, you

just leave and you have some great conversations

with people. and I look at my friends now and yes,

we have things in common, but, but also really

different in a lot of ways. And yeah, I think

that's great.

>> Julia: So I think that's a great thing in terms of it

helps you develop and grow. If you've got people

around you who aren't, copies of you, then.

>> Susan: Exactly.

>> Julia: They have different views, yields, changes who you

are and challenges you.

Why do you think making friends in young adulthood

is hard?

>> Susan: I think, I think it's hard especially after, if

you go to university or after school, because

you're not around as many people your age.

Everyone's trying to figure life out and

everyone's really busy. I saw a stat that a lot of

millennials have full time jobs and are, doing

side hustles. We're really busy. So I think what

ends up happening is even with the friends that

you do have or the connections you might have made

at school and university, you'll be meeting up

with people to say, have dinners or go for coffee

and you're like catching up with them but you're

not, you're not really making new memories with

people. So I think you can end up in the year

having multiple catch ups with people but not

really going deep. So I think it's hard because

you aren't meeting new people after university or

after school. And then it's hard because you might

not have the space in your life to also go deep.

And so I think a lot of people have superficial

connections with people and aren't necessarily

deeply known by people. And I think also actually

a conversation I had with a friend, it took her a

while to realize that she didn't really have, she

wasn't deeply known by people because there's just

so much going on with life. but yeah, it is hard,

it is hard to meet people now.

>> Julia: And that's so true. I've had things of like people

of generations above us. They would make friends

at certain time periods in their lives. So like

they would make friends at university and then

that would be great. They'd have a really great

friendship at that time. But then that friendship

wouldn't. Would naturally end when they moved away

or they got married, had children, etc, but

actually the expectation on our generation, and

generations below us as well, is because of things

like social media and WhatsApp and et cetera, that

we're always pressured to stay in contact with all

the people we've ever known and keep up this

multiple levels of friendship. So it's not like

one or two people, it's like 200 people. Maybe.

200 is an exaggeration, but you know what I mean?

There's just this expectation that you can't let

friendships go. You've got to keep working at

them. And so then you end up not having one dinner

with one person and go deeper. You end up having a

need to have like 10 dinners over a year with 10

different people and you just haven't got the

energy to put.

>> Susan: Yeah.

>> Julia: Into it in the same way.

>> Susan: No. Ah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Julia: So have you learned anything about, like, having

to set boundaries and friendships?

>> Susan: Yes, I'd say, like I said, like, when I moved and

was open to hanging out with everyone because I

kind of felt like I had to, to actually meet

people, that was great. But then it started to.

You can then start to feel what you're saying

about the pressure to maintain connections with

people. So I had this thing, I'd like, try and

check in with people once a week, but when, when,

that's quite a few people, it gets quite intense.

And then also then people have that expectation

that you're going to sustain that. And so in

trying to do that, you can start to feel burnt

out. you can also, I think for me, because I was

really trying to make deep connections with

people. I don't know if I felt pressure to, but

maybe overshare sometimes or when people would be

telling me a lot about what they've gone through.

You want to create that space for people, but then

you can, I don't know if, like, feel the pressure

to become that person for everyone. and so, and

it's just not possible to do that. So I think I

had to learn how to. I don't know if it's like

just dial back on the frequency at which I was

like, trying to keep up with a, lot of people

because, yeah, I realized I was trying to like,

have coffees with everyone and I hadn't seen my

best friend in a while. So, yeah, I think I had to

learn. Okay, who is it? Who are the people who I.

Who pour into me on that level, who I also want to

pour into on that level, and who are the other

people who I still want to have friendship with?

And I'm part of my community, but just

understanding that I can't give a certain amount

of my time and having to communicate that is

something that I had to learn how to do.

>> Julia: have you ever had to step away from a friendship?

>> Susan: Yeah, I've had to step back from a friendship. I

think that probably came down to maybe

miscommunication, what our expectations of

friendship were, because I think this was a

friendship that I emotionally poured a lot into,

and I thought the other person was doing the same.

Then I learned that they weren't. I, think that

was really hurtful. And I think that doesn't

necessarily mean in all situations like that if

there is a miscommunication that you have to step

away. But I think if you can communicate that and

the other person's just not willing or not able to

match the level of investment, then it is

something that you have to step back from. I have

this analogy from. It's from Lysa TerKeurst. I

didn't come up with this. It's talking about

boundaries, and she's saying that boundaries have

different levels. So basically, if you have level

10 access to me, then you have access to my entire

life, or as much of it as I would give to anyone

who has level 10 access. But that comes with level

10 responsibility and how you deal with that. But

sometimes people display level four

responsibility, and so you have to lower the

access to level four. So it's not necessarily that

they're cut off, but it's just understanding that

actually, for whatever reason, that person isn't

able to give you level 10 responsibility. And so

you do have to just lower the access.

>> Julia: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, I

have definitely had friendships like that where

I've given them the level 10 and then realized,

like, actually, no, this is. This is a level 2, 3,

4 relationship. How do you communicate that to

people in that situation?

>> Susan: I literally communicated it. Not with the analogy,

but more or less that I was hurt and. Yeah. That

it wasn't that I was going to cut off the

friendship, but that they probably would sense a

shift. And I think maybe younger Susan would have

just pulled back and just not said anything. but I

think, yeah, it was important for me to just

literally have to say it like that. And they

understood, and we're still friends now, so it's

just not the Same. Yeah.

>> Julia: Yeah. I mean, that sounds a challenge in itself.

Sometimes when I've had to step away from

friendships, it's been for my own, like, my own

mental health, right, to like. Because I realize

if I'm not. If I'm not getting that effort into

the friendship, it's taking a lot from me. but I

think people. Something people don't realize from

it is actually stepping away from a friendship can

be as hard as, like, a breakup and can hurt as

much.

>> Susan: It was really painful. Yeah, it was extreme. Yeah,

that was extremely painful because, like I said,

it was one of my closest friends. So it was an

adjustment. But I think, yeah, I think it's like

what you were saying. I learned that, actually it

was also painful being in that kind of dynamic.

And I had to reset that because I think before I

would have done it from. I probably would have

stuck it out for the sake of just feeling like I

didn't have friends. And so I had to just pour

into people. But it was actually a recognition

that even if you don't have people around you,

there is a certain. The way that God treats us and

the way that he sees and values us. I think it

does help us in terms of how we value ourselves

and the treatment that or the relationships that

we deserve and what that should look like on both

sides. And actually it's okay to. To step back and

God does bring the right people to you. So, yeah,

it felt like. I think stepping back from it, it

felt like, is this going to be a hole in my. It

really felt like, is this going to be a hole in my

life that no one's going to be able to fill? But

that has not turned out to be the case.

>> Julia: I definitely would agree with that as well.

So if you've got someone who's level 10 or level 8

and that communicated and going well, how do you

be a good friend?

>> Susan: I think you have to be willing to hold space for

not just the great time. So we were talking about

friends who are, like the fun friend. I think all

of my close friends are also my fun friends. But I

think it's recognizing that life is not always

like that. And actually, yeah, I think it's just

being willing to. Firstly, actually, this is one

thing be inconvenienced sometimes, because that is

the price that you. That is the cost, I should

say, of having close friends. It's that sometimes

you might have to be a bit inconvenienced to

really show up and be there for people when things

are going well. And when things are not going

well, or when people just need support,

practically, people just need to be heard because

they just need to rant with those level 10

friends. Yeah. I think you have to be willing to

be that for other people. I think there's also a

level of honesty, transparency, and accountability

that you have to be willing to have and be to

others. Because I think with your closest friends,

in order to have that kind of intimacy with

people, you need to be able to really hold people

accountable, and you need to be willing to have

that the other way. And. Yeah, because I think, I

think that Jesus shows us that we're there to

encourage our friends, but also to convict our

friends with the truth.

>> Julia: Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that

because I'm taken back to a time in my life where,

I would say I wasn't a very good friend in that, I

was going through something, particularly a bad

breakup, I would say. And I kept that all to

myself and then told my friends about it after,

like, months after. And they were like, why did

you not reach out to us? Like, why did you not do

this? And then, a few months later, they had that,

like, one particular friend, lost both her

grandparents, particularly, like, quickly. And she

didn't reach. She didn't reach out. It was the

next time I saw her that she told me. And I

remember feeling quite, like, hurt in that moment,

like she hadn't told me. And then it's in this

moment that I'm realizing I didn't demonstrate

good friendship myself by not reaching out to her

when I was going through something that maybe that

meant she didn't feel like she could reach out to

me. And that.

>> Susan: Yeah, that really resonates because a similar

thing happened. So I was in a bad relationship,

and some of my friends were quite close to that

situation. But I kept some people out and told

them about it. Afterwards, I actually had a

conversation with a friend. I think she was really

shocked by what was happening and the fact that I

hadn't said anything to her. I think I did feel

embarrassed when I was in that relationship about

some of the things that were happening. And so I

didn't feel like I could tell a few people, like

quite a few people about it. One of my best

friends always says that you need friends who can

see your dirty laundry. And it's that, actually,

it can feel. I'll use the word embarrassed because

that's how I felt. It can feel embarrassing, but I

think it's also tied to feeling that you won't be

accepted if people see the truth of your life and

your choices and your weaknesses. And for me, my

insecurities I had, and I still do have a lot of

insecurities. And I was really embarrassed to show

that to people. But I think, I think we have to be

willing to bring some people in on that because I

needed people to tell me the truth lovingly. I

needed people who. And I've learned that since

actually, no, these people love you and will still

be here and won't judge you, but because they love

you, they will give you good advice and they will

tell you the truth. And that's what Jesus does for

us. I think my friends really have demonstrated

that. So, yeah, yeah, I do. I really resonated

with that.

>> Julia: It's true that a good friendship can show you the

friendship that you have with Jesus as well.

>> Susan: Yeah.

>> Julia: So how do you stay in touch with people, so that

you can continue that friendship?

>> Susan: Yeah. So I love a voice note.

>> Julia: Me too.

>> Susan: I do. There is no shame. Okay. Voice notes are a

big thing for me because life is so busy and no

one is seeing anyone until the weekend. I mean,

for me at least. so voice notes are my way to

stay, to bring my friends in on my day to day

life. So I don't voice note everyone.

>> Julia: Do you have your own podcast via voice Note?

>> Susan: Yes, I do and I call it a podcast sometimes

because sometimes they are 30 minutes long. And it

is a way of just keeping in touch with the day to

day. I was actually just thinking about this now

because I was, I was listening to a friend's voice

note this morning and she normally voice notes me

in the car. And there are so many things I would

never know about. She doesn't live. She doesn't

live in Ossium. She lives in Birmingham. And

there's so many things I would never know about

the kind of person she is. But you see, you hear

so much just by her, like, monologue in the car.

And I'm just like, people don't get this kind of

insight, you know, and you don't live near me, so

I wouldn't know these kind of details. And it is

the tiny details about your close friends that

make you feel close to them. So I think that is

personally for me, a huge way of keeping in touch

with people. And then I have friends who live,

overseas. Every six months will do a long phone

call or a long, like FaceTime and we'll just catch

up on like, what's been happening for the first

half of the year for you kind of thing. Because

you can be on socials and see people's what's

going on, what their posts and think that you are

up to date. So it can make you feel like you're

connected. But people post whatever they want to

or they don't post at all and you just don't

really know.

>> Julia: And generally people post their like happy best

moments.

>> Susan: Exactly.

>> Julia: So then you don't see the reality of their life of

like the tough moments. Yeah, because I remember I

had a friend who, traveled to China and I saw her

like post on Instagram. She looked like she was

having a great time. And then I direct messaged

her and I said, oh, looks like you're having

great. And then she was like, this is going wrong,

that's going wrong, blah, blah, blah. And she gave

me like the whole picture. Which you never would

have got just looking at social media.

>> Susan: No, exactly. Yeah. I've literally had that and

been like, oh, my goodness, I did not know you

were going through that.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you knew about friendship and

boundaries before you went to university?

>> Susan: I wish I knew that Jesus has friends for me and he

wants to bring community around me because I look

at, who I am now and I think a huge way in which

he has developed me as a person and growing my

faith is through my community. And I think in the

loneliest of times, I really believe that this,

this might be it. And maybe this is how it's going

to be in my life. And I think if I had known that

it's not God's intention for me to be alone, it

might have comforted me more knowing that it's

going to happen because it felt like it wasn't

going to happen.

>> Julia: I really love that image that like, God's already

kind of chosen your friends for you. But it might

not be in this immediate moment. It might take

some time, but it's there. he's got it already.

So what are you most grateful for, my friends?

>> Susan: I have no, genuinely, even recently I broke my

finger.

>> Julia: I was waiting for it to come up.

>> Susan: Yeah, I broke my finger and I was texting my

friend because I was in a walking center. I'd

never been in one before. So I was like, this is

not gonna take long. And she was like, you're

gonna be there all evening. I mean, thankfully I

wasn't favor of the Lord. but yeah, she was

literally on her way to come and keep me company

for the rest of the evening. And yeah, I'm just so

grateful for my community of friends.

>> Julia: And they're the reason you ended up at the walk in

center, right?

>> Susan: Yes, because I actually thought that it was fine

and it was sprained, and I took a picture and sent

it to my friend and she said, it's definitely

broken. You need to call 1-1-1. I thought everyone

was overreacting, but yeah, I know it is broken.

>> Julia: Well, that's a sign of a good friendship that

people encourage you to go.

>> Susan: Truth.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with m Me

because the way that Susan shared about how her

friendship should reflect her, friendship with

Jesus. And I think that's something I need to do

more in my life. How about you? We'd love to hear

how Susan's story resonated with you. And why not

also tell us if you're facing an experience you

wish you knew how to look at differently, it might

just be something we can help with. You can find

out more about this theme and

others at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for

listening, and I hope you'll join me next time on

Things I Wish I Knew.