Simon Dell (00:01)
So welcome to the Fractional Marketing Podcast. I am your host, Simon Dell. ⁓ I am from a little company called Cemo, spelled C-E-M-O-H dot com. If you wanna find out more about us, ⁓ just go to the website, very easy. But if you'd like to connect with me, I am on LinkedIn, obviously, and...

You can find me at simonsimo.com. are Australia's largest fractional marketing network. And before I introduce my guest today, if you do enjoy what you hear today, whether you're actually listening to this live, whether that's working.

We'll see about that a minute. ⁓ Or if you're listening to us on the podcast through Apple or Spotify or one of the other channels, please, please, please see if you can spend two minutes and write us a nice review. ⁓ That's pretty much all the pleasantries out of the way. ⁓ I am very lucky to be ⁓ with my guest today, a gentleman by the name of Chris Jowsey who is down in Sydney. Chris, welcome, how are you?

Chris Jowsey (01:09)
Well Simon, it's good to be here. Thanks mate.

Simon Dell (01:10)
Now,

we started working with you probably a couple of years ago now, is it? Is that seems to, yeah? Yeah. And your background, we'll talk about that in a second, but you are perhaps one of the, ⁓ I was gonna see if I can blow smoke up your backside there for a second. One of the leading fractional ⁓ CMOs within our network.

Chris Jowsey (01:18)
Yeah, that's right.

Simon Dell (01:39)
Very quickly, give us an overview about what you do in that role and the sort of people that you're doing it for.

Chris Jowsey (01:48)
Yeah, sure. So yeah, I guess I've been in this kind fractional space for the last five years. So I think it kind of started off as consulting, and then probably in the last two years, I think the whole fractional movement is kind of building up speed, and I think the kind of the position itself is kind of firming up. And so I think I've probably moved a little bit further to the fractional piece from consulting in that time.

Simon Dell (02:18)
And so just before, just to stop you there, what do you see is the difference? Because we've had that conversation with a couple of people before, is what's the difference between a fractional CMO and a marketing consultant?

Chris Jowsey (02:18)
⁓

Yeah, I think probably the main difference is that consulting, if you're putting it on a scale of kind of in-house, external, think consulting's probably further on the external path versus in-house. as soon as you start the conversation around fractional and then obviously the client engagement itself, you're very much positioned as kind of part of the in-house team. And I think in reality, you're kind of one step.

inside and one step out. But what that means is that kind of on a day to day basis you're acting and living and breathing like another employee ⁓ with some outside perspective. As opposed to a consultant where you tend to always sit on the other side of the fence and not as integrated. And then from a project point of view consulting seems to be more kind of time based.

Simon Dell (03:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (03:28)
it's

not like you're going into the engagement without an end in mind. Where it's fractional, you're very much going in with, this may, on average, be a two year thing that we're doing, but in reality, there's no specific end date.

Simon Dell (03:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I think that I think those two things were spot on is how I see it is a consultant. A consultant is there for a particular project or a particular problem. Whereas I think fractional CMOs are looking at a broader, broader business growth, you know, and ongoing. And I also, exactly as you said there, I feel...

The fractional CMO has a little bit more of a longevity to it. It's, you know, you're there. I think you spot on. There's no real end date to a fractional CMO engagement.

Chris Jowsey (04:22)
Yeah, I think the mindset has to shift, I think, a, whether you're a fractional or a consultant, because I think a lot of people that come from a full-time background, may have come from agency or client side, I think in their mind, they're probably thinking consultant, ⁓ but it is a bit of a mindset shift to say, okay, no, actually, this is kind of how a fractional engagement would work, and that's kind of how you need to lead.

the conversations as well.

Simon Dell (04:53)
And what sort of clients do you deal with? you sort of, you're focused on any particular industries or any particular problems? How do you sort of compartmentalize yourself there?

Chris Jowsey (05:04)
Yeah, mean, most of my background's in tech and e-commerce, and that's kind of where I tended to start my consulting and fractional business. But I think more so in the last couple of years, the fractional model itself, I think, lends itself well to any type of B2B business, and given there's quite a large number of B2B businesses, I think, in that sweet spot in Australia.

that really benefit from a fractional. I've tended to work well in that space and that's across multiple industries. It doesn't necessarily have to be in tech or sales, but manufacturing's another. ⁓ But any kind of real B2B business, I think there's a lot of value in fractionals. And then obviously there's certain kind B2C businesses, but they have to be at the right scale, I think, to really kind of benefit from a

Simon Dell (05:55)
Bye.

Chris Jowsey (06:04)
from a fractional as opposed to more of traditional kind of agency, agency kind of model.

Simon Dell (06:11)
Do you, is there a particular model that you operate on? Do you, ⁓ you know, is it monthly retainers, numbers of days per month? What's your preferred sort of engagement model?

Chris Jowsey (06:27)
Yeah, so I did this exercise recently where I went back and kind of had a look at the engagements in the last kind of five years and it was pretty much split 50-50 between kind of an ongoing retainer or kind of a daily rate model. I mean, I look at, I don't have a preference either side for either. I think probably a retainer model probably suits ⁓ more cases than not, ⁓ but a daily model, particularly for where there's a lot of ambiguity involved around.

Simon Dell (06:41)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (06:57)
how the project's going to look at least initially ⁓ is kind of the safe bet for both sides as well.

Simon Dell (07:06)
You mentioned in your notes for today that you had number of struggles with sales and marketing early on. ⁓ Talk me through that, because I think probably that's one of the big fears people have moving into this model, as you said, moving out of an agency or moving from a full-time role.

Chris Jowsey (07:22)
Yeah, yeah, I think that, and I've seen a few different people kind of explain the kind of path for a typical consultant, and I think I've probably taken that similar path in the sense that the first kind of six to 12 months, you're leaning heavily on your immediate network and probably the immediate roles that you've had in the past. So you're reaching out to them, telling them what you're up to, and usually your first kind of three or four gigs will come from that.

And then after that, then it's kind of, you know, you're organically shifting your focus a little bit. You might be shifting industries, you might be shifting models ⁓ or approaches. And at that stage, that's when you really need to start thinking about, okay, what does my own marketing look like? Because obviously you focus more so on everyone else's marketing than your own. And then from a sales point of view, I think that, yeah, this is probably where I struggled initially the most is because,

Simon Dell (08:13)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (08:20)
know, once you get busy, most marketers probably don't really want to be selling. And so the first thing to go once you get busy is usually your own sales and marketing. And so my own challenge, I kind of identified it probably around year two, year three was, you know, I just didn't have a consistent approach around sales. And so look, I hired a fractional sales leader and...

Simon Dell (08:25)
Nah.

Chris Jowsey (08:49)
And really that was all about accountability. That was just driving that weekly accountability. Who did you meet up with last week? Who were you having conversations with? And then over time, how is that developing into pipeline? That kind of regular sales cadence, which is pretty straightforward. Most of us probably know that working within different organizations, but just having the rigor around doing it each week is a challenge when you've...

distracted by so many other things. So I think I just needed to learn that lesson and that's probably the biggest thing that most fractionals I talk to struggle with. I know it's one of the things you're trying to solve as well for marketers.

Simon Dell (09:27)
And

Yes,

yeah, well, I think it's one of the things we're trying to solve on their behalf, you know, as well as for us. yeah. Talk me through that first client. That must have been a, was there a moment of relief there when that sort of first one signed off or the first invoice went out?

Chris Jowsey (09:34)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean that was more of a consulting gig with a previous company, ⁓ former colleagues kind of putting you in touch saying I need this and that, some help on a project. And so that kind of felt like a real natural kind of next step. But yeah, through that time initially as well, I had my first experiences of kind of ghosting of clients and...

And that whole understanding the process, the sales process, ⁓ what works and what doesn't work, getting those first kind of rejections. And so, yeah, that all happened in that first kind of two to three months. And then, that was also around COVID. So ⁓ that was probably both a blessing and a curse because COVID forced everyone to take a bit of a reset and a break. And so that was also...

Simon Dell (10:40)
Yep.

Chris Jowsey (10:46)
good timing for me because I think it also just meant that I didn't need to just stay within this path of, you my background was in tech, so I need to stay within this tech sector because that's what I knew. COVID really just meant that I was able to, you know, put the word out to a whole bunch of different industries and, you know, within a couple of months I was working with all sorts of different businesses. So, and that's kind of how I deal with it today.

Simon Dell (11:12)
And when you say, I just want to pick up on what you just said there when you sort of go, you you put the word out. What was that? Like, do you pick up, did you pick up the phone of people? Were you just like endless coffees and emails or LinkedIn? Or is it just a combination of pretty much all of those things?

Chris Jowsey (11:29)
Yeah, initially I've tried a whole bunch of different approaches. I guess the key ones that I kind of landed on, and probably at that stage, it's really around who are the three to five people I'm gonna connect with this week. And literally it is, I had a very simple script of, hey, this is what I'm up to now, just wanna fill you in on and give you an update, keen to hear what you're up to, and it starts the conversation.

Simon Dell (11:34)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (11:59)
And I just tried to keep it as simple as that because a lot of people you speak to within your network, often it's not necessarily you sharing how you can help them, but it's them putting them in touch with someone else in network or ⁓ you're helping them connect them with someone else in your network. So kind of value exchanges going both ways and it's one of those things that I think is a, particularly as a direct marketer, you wanna see.

⁓ instant line of sight to your activity and outcomes. It's one of those things in this business that any kind of trust-based or network-based business, you just have to have faith that doing the work week in, week out over a three to six month period starts to bear fruit. But ⁓ it's...

Simon Dell (12:47)
Yeah,

the reality is, think for everybody, it's a numbers game is, you you meet with 10 people, you might pick up a referral out of one of those 10, you meet with 20 people, you pick up two referrals and so on, whatever those numbers are, and whatever those percentages are. ⁓ You know, it is just, and then I think over time,

you get better at understanding where those referrals are coming from and the types of people that are going to get you referrals. So rather than meeting with 10, you're meeting with five and then, you know, you just get better and better at doing it. But yeah, those early days, those early days, it's the shotgun approach, isn't it? It's just like, I'm just going to point this at someone and hope, hope something hits, don't you? Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (13:21)
That's right.

That's right, yeah. Yeah, and I

think your own marketing is in a similar vein because you're not used to really kind of promoting yourself and ⁓ your own value and worth. So you're trying different approaches there, whether it's kind of communicating on LinkedIn or writing content, or for me, was getting stuck in some research. And that was an early exercise where my initial marketing approach was,

know, four or five months on a deep research project and then sharing that with prospective clients. you know, it was a lot of work, but, you know, I got one or two clients out of that. that was another approach as well.

Simon Dell (14:17)
⁓ Let's talk about your approach when it's actually with the clients. You walk in day one, mean, obviously throughout the whole process of talking to them, you've got some idea of what you're about to face, but what's your sort of process in those first 90 days when you're walking into work with a client?

Chris Jowsey (14:40)
Yeah, mean, most clients, I'll typically be proposing a strategy piece upfront. ⁓ It's rare to start an engagement without some kind of strategy piece. ⁓ And really, I kind of split that into two parts. One is kind of the business side of it, and then one's kind of developing the marketing strategy. ⁓ And I think early on, it helps at least just establish where the business.

Simon Dell (14:53)
Yep.

Chris Jowsey (15:09)
where the client's business is at. Particularly as, I wanna have early conversations around, you know, share your P &L with me. How do you make money, whether it's product, services. Take me into detail around the margin. And so I think that's the initial shock is me asking all these questions of typically the IANA founder and CFO and getting into real, the nuts and bolts of how the business works and how it operates.

Simon Dell (15:11)
Yep.

Chris Jowsey (15:39)
⁓ And then that typically tells you about where the business is at. Have they just gone through a strategic exercise? Because I think a lot of the reason we get brought in is because they've typically just gone through, either gone through ⁓ a change in the business. could be they've just, they've brought on another, an external advisor who's taken them through a strategic piece of work and they're looking to make a significant change. And someone said, look, maybe you should consider a fractional.

Simon Dell (16:09)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (16:09)
And so that works really well because obviously they've just gone through this whole strategic process. They understand the value in that and it's also added some clarity around well where do they want to take the business? What are their sales goals? ⁓ If they haven't done that piece of work, that's when it's a bit of a challenge to begin with because before you even having the marketing conversation, you're trying to force them to have clarity around what is it they're trying to do?

What are their goals? And if you're just getting blank, then you know you're up for a bit of a challenge ahead because you can't start developing marketing strategies or ⁓ tactics yet until you've at least got agreement over where the business wants to go and where it's heading and what are your sales goals for the next 12 months. ⁓

Simon Dell (17:01)
You mentioned there something else. My next question was how far you look when you go in as a fractional CMO. How far beyond the marketing do you look? Because you mentioned earlier on about getting access to the P &L, which is something I always ask so I can understand the general health, financial health of the business. But how far do you go beyond just the marketing?

Chris Jowsey (17:27)
Yeah, I'll typically get all the sales data and the historicals for the past two years and then try and just tie that back to where the, you know, I'm hearing from the business around where they want to go. And so I just want to understand and get clarity around, okay, are the objectives you're giving me, they achievable? Help me understand the stories about how you got there. So getting alignment on that upfront.

Simon Dell (17:34)
Yep.

Chris Jowsey (17:58)
is really helpful because then obviously we can go from there as far as kind of developing strategy and then one of the other outcomes is obviously aligning on budget.

Simon Dell (18:08)
Did you get, I mean, sounds an obvious question, but were you familiar with P &L before you started this kind of role, or was that something you had to teach yourself as well?

Chris Jowsey (18:22)
Yeah, I I guess my background in e-commerce, being a GM ⁓ of different business units has just meant that you had to really make your way around a P &L from a sales and marketing perspective. having that background just meant that any business I'm going into, I'm kind of just asking those business and sales questions upfront before we even get into the marketing side.

Simon Dell (18:48)
But I'd imagine...

and there is a lot of marketing people out there who don't have any financial P &L experience and you know starting off on a fractional CMO journey

Chris Jowsey (18:54)
Hmm.

Simon Dell (19:05)
I would assume your advice would be to anyone starting off on that journey or early on in that journey is to make themselves familiar with how the finances of such a company might work because that's going to, without a doubt, impact some of the decisions that you make as a marketing leader.

Chris Jowsey (19:24)
Absolutely, yeah, I mean I think that's the step in anyone's kind of marketing journey I think whether you're on the product side or whether you're getting into a marketing director role a key part of it has to be really understanding how how do you develop budgets and what's the impact on the business? ⁓ You know getting good mates with the CFO at the organization you're with to really understand how that how what you're doing on the marketing side and how that impacts ⁓

You know, because you've got to really preempt that before you start developing a budget. ⁓ You know, there's no point walking into this stuff blind. And you just want to be a good partner to the rest of the business. having that clarity just means that, you know, you're not really running into issues from a finance or sales perspective because you're getting that clarity upfront.

Simon Dell (20:16)
There's a couple of key challenges I'm going to ask you about now that I see ⁓ fractional CMOs run straight into when they go into some of these businesses. And we talked about the financial side of things. But one of the other ones that I see a lot of is there's almost a, I call it the results now. ⁓

appeal from the business owner. So the business owner is going, hey, thanks very much. And you're trying to talk strategy, long-term 90 day plans, know, 12 months plans, whatever. And they're like, no, but we want results now. How do you, you know, they're expecting that kind of, that tap to switch on the moment you walk in the door. How do you, how do you sort of deal with that challenge?

Chris Jowsey (21:03)
Yeah, I think there has to be a mix, and assuming we've done this piece of, at least some piece of strategic work, and so you're getting alignment around where the business is going, what your current performance is, and then I think the strategy you're looking to develop has to have a component of long-term and short-term goals. And assuming that you've got a mix of those, and again, you're trying to get alignment and agreement with the business as you're going through.

Simon Dell (21:10)
Mm.

Chris Jowsey (21:33)
you have to be able to set the expectation that look, based on where you're at ⁓ and the resources that you're willing to commit, these are the types of outcomes we should expect, both short term and long term. And then from a short term perspective, I think that again has to have a mixture of, well, this is something that, you know, based on experience and...

And for example, if you're going to execute a lead generation campaign or some kind of immediate ⁓ campaign that has a return, ⁓ you're using real data or at least benchmarks to be able to give you some expectations, some solid expectations around return. ⁓ And then depending on ⁓ the appetite for risk, there's always kind of a testing component.

which again, it's all about setting expectations where this may generate a return, it may not, ⁓ but again, you're both going into it with ⁓ acknowledgement that part of this budget may or may not work. And we're looking at doing this over a period of time where again, some things may or may not work. I guess it's the having that balance where you've, again, you're trying to say upfront, some of these things are going to work, some of them aren't.

Simon Dell (22:54)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (22:58)
The longer term pieces are gonna take time. It might be six months before you start seeing an impact. ⁓

Simon Dell (23:05)
I think there's

a bit of naivety from marketers to almost be shocked when the business is looking for quick wins or something like that. There has to be a balance. You have to be able to sit down and go, okay, well, there are some things that we can change or there are some things that we can do quickly that may have some... ⁓

you know, make some change that may make effect or may grow sales or whatever it is, you know, to sit there and say, no, this is all a process and this is going to be six months, 12 months down the line. I know we would all like that leeway, but I think the reality of the business world is that, you know, people do want...

people want instant results and I know it's hard to promise that but sometimes I feel that we should at least try and understand that the side of you know the other side of you know the business owner side of things.

Chris Jowsey (24:08)
Yeah, look, I think most businesses, there is a component where you should be able to get quick wins, you should be able to get some kind of immediate return. ⁓ Now, if you're in a business that has 12 to 18 month ⁓ average pipeline timeline, well, that's, ⁓ it's unrealistic to say that you're gonna necessarily get a sale, but as long as you're saying, we're gonna show immediate progress in generating leads, because that's something you can generate.

Simon Dell (24:10)
.

Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (24:37)
in 30, 60 days, then that's well on your way to be able to show immediate value. ⁓

Simon Dell (24:44)
I tell you

what, one of my favorite ones in that when, when talking to clients about immediate, immediate results is certainly if the business has been around a long enough, a long enough time, you generally find that they've probably got a database or somewhere there is a list of former clients, old clients, people that may be inquired two years ago or a year ago or work with them a year ago. I remember doing this, doing that for a company that did staging, staging for real estate agents. sold.

they rented out all the furniture. And I'd said to him, how many of your customers on your database have not ordered from you in the last 12 months? And they pulled up a number and I said, let's pick up the phone and start calling them. Let's just start asking them, why haven't you ordered from us? Is there any jobs coming up? And just that sort of simple thing, you go, that's a...

That's a quick win, you know, and that'd be part of the long-term strategy is building better relationships with these people so that we don't have that lag of people that once order from us and don't order anymore. But just a simple thing is, why don't we just pick up the phone?

call the people that used to buy from us and go, why do you buy from us anymore? And that I think is, I think that's applicable irrespective of what the business is and what the size of the business is, whether it's software or AI or robotics or manufacturing, whatever it is, just pick up people who don't, you don't talk to anymore and ask them, you know.

Chris Jowsey (26:08)
⁓ Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I look, I had

a business a couple of years ago that the only reason they sent out an email was once a year when they were increasing prices. But I tell you, as soon as they sent that email out, you'd think, because you know, by nature it's kind of a negative communication piece, they were getting five to 10 inquiries off the back of it, people saying, oh, I completely forgot that you did X, Y, and Z.

Simon Dell (26:44)
Yeah.

It's frustrating. One of the other challenges I wanted to sort of ask you about this one is ⁓ when you go into businesses that I would say are led by a... ⁓

somebody who is skilled in the business that they're in, which kind of sounds a bit obvious, but you find that there's a lot of CEOs out there who are skill-based CEOs. They've come up through the ranks. They know their industry extremely well. They know what their business does extremely well, but they have no idea about sales or marketing or HR or all those kinds of things. very good at what the, their knowledge is very much around what that business does. One of the things I see a lot of and the challenge is there for fractional CMOs is that they're always

then they're too busy. They're like, I don't have time to do this. That's why you're here.

And the struggle then can be for the fractional CMO that a lot of the knowledge that you need is in their head to make a decent marketing plan. And they're very standoffish in terms of giving their time to help you, which then compounds because that makes your job harder because you're not the skills-based person there. Do you see that a lot?

Chris Jowsey (28:03)
wouldn't say I see that a lot. think most of the leaders have been pretty engaging. ⁓ But yeah, you do come across the odd person that just doesn't have a lot of time. I think in that scenario, it can be challenging in the sense that it's gonna be difficult to make a lot of progress ⁓ because there's gonna be gaps in your knowledge, but also just...

There's a level of, there has to be a level of accountability from the owner in the whole process ⁓ with marketing. It'd be the same as if you work full time and the CEO just wasn't engaged in marketing but was holding you accountable because you know, the ideal partner is someone that feels just as invested as you are in getting the results. ⁓ And that has to be them providing a certain amount of time. ⁓

and also just getting agreement in the decisions you're making.

Simon Dell (29:06)
I like

the ones that want to learn. The ones that have recognised, that are self-aware about their failings in certain areas. And that might not just be marketing, as I said, it might be HR, it might be sales, whatever it is. But they recognise their failings and not only do they want to bring an expert in, like a fractional CMO, but...

Chris Jowsey (29:08)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (29:26)
they want to learn from that fractional CMO. Not in a sense that they want to replace them, but they want to understand where they have not failed in the past, but where their gaps are and upskill themself so that they can then be more supportive of what you're trying to do.

Chris Jowsey (29:48)
Yeah, I think that's some of where the real enjoyment is, particularly when you're working with someone like, let's say from an engineering background. They're very detailed and process-orientated. They may have one or two tactics in mind when you're starting, because I think a lot of businesses have got experience working with agencies, and so they're used to this of ⁓ relationship where...

Simon Dell (29:57)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (30:17)
you've got a partner that executes, but not necessarily a strategic partner that always kind of questions their decisions. So I think in a lot of cases, they appreciate the kind of the honest feedback and when you can kind of validate their ideas, but then also bring three or four others and give them a reason why, you know, this could also work or work instead of, yeah, as you say, they then start really benefiting and, you know, want to learn more and.

⁓ yeah you can really turn around a positive relationship

Simon Dell (30:51)
Yeah. Last couple of questions. I'm always fascinated by this one because, and you don't have to answer it. We can skip right over it. Have you ever terminated a client where you've just gone, I can't, this isn't gonna work.

Chris Jowsey (31:08)
No. And maybe that's just.

Simon Dell (31:11)
And do you

think that's because all your clients are just being fantastic or you've or you've done or you've done enough due diligence at the start not to get yourself in that to that position?

Chris Jowsey (31:14)
No.

No, I don't think so. No, I've had some doozies where I haven't really enjoyed it. And you you just get a sense that it's not, if it's not really going where you want it to go, both sides, I just get a sense that look, it's, know, things are gonna come to an end ⁓ and that's okay. ⁓ And so, yeah, I haven't had to put that to a client. ⁓

Simon Dell (31:32)
Mmm.

Chris Jowsey (31:50)
But I also, you know, in those circumstances haven't been that motivated to want to continue either.

Simon Dell (31:57)
Yeah, no, fair enough. The last thing, or a couple of things I want to ask you about is where you see this whole fractional idea going because obviously it's something that's been in the back of our head for the past four or five years was when we started off in this journey, which was in the same sort of time in the middle of COVID. But, you know, in your notes, you've kind of mentioned this idea of a fractional pod.

⁓ where all the marketing skills that you need are part of a presumably a pod, which you can call upon as and when you need it. ⁓ You know, be that strategy, graphic design, digital, social media, whatever it is. Is that kind of how you see it going?

Chris Jowsey (32:42)
Yeah, think, because I think most fractionals, have, they end up with a really strong network of people that can execute. I think that's where you start. And so you end up with a really strong kind of agency base. You might have a couple of good freelancers. And so you end up with this kind of quasi in-house agency model. like, you I always position it as a kind of real blur between agency and in-house. And then you kind of start thinking, okay, well, there's certain people,

Simon Dell (33:06)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (33:11)
that I work with that are great at delivering certain outcomes. So it might be, know, a pod of freelancers or agency partners that are great at lead generation. Others are great at messaging and positioning. And now I think, probably more so in the last 18 months, starting to work with other fractionals. And I think for me, it started off being, well, okay, should I bring in other fractionals that I can then, who can then, you know, be,

full-time fractionals for other businesses, ⁓ like a consulting model. ⁓ But I think where it kind of works best is having other fractionals that have certain skill sets that I don't, ⁓ and pairing up on different programs and different clients. And so you might have a fractional, like I do, ⁓ great relationships where one's better at kind of messaging and copywriting ⁓ and...

Simon Dell (33:42)
Yeah.

Chris Jowsey (34:06)
you know, I might be better at data and analytics and performance. And so pairing up with other fractionals, in addition to freelancers, I just think it adds another dimension to a client because, you you've got some redundancy built in if you want to go away on a holiday or if you need help with a particular project and you're not available, the client gets, you know, multiple heads at that strategy level.

Plus you then got that team that can execute. Yeah, I just think that kind of approach is interesting and I think it's where it could be headed.

Simon Dell (34:38)
Yeah.

Last question then, obviously everyone's talking about AI, marketing is one of those, potentially one of those skills that is ripe for AI and smart marketing people are already using it for many things. Have we reached peak disruption in the marketing space or are we gonna see more disruption? How do you kind of see this plan out?

Chris Jowsey (35:17)
Yeah, think it's because most fractionals are solo operators, I think they get a much bigger bang for their buck with AI than marketing teams. Most marketing teams, I speak to particularly ones in bigger companies, are still struggling with things like governance, even just the thought of you using AI instead of delivering the work.

You know, just the kind of the typical kind of corporate issues that you find bringing in new technology. I just think a fractional can move so quickly, but also there's a huge benefit in just being able to kind of streamline how you do things. You know, I'm saving hours in research and developing proposals and so many different parts of the business while still working with, you know, a lot of great people on the freelancing side. So I think, you know, fractional can...

evolve their own models really quickly. ⁓ Then I think similar to how a lot of fractional marketers get brought in to help in things like marketing tech and you get pulled into then being the expert across CRM and multiple different technology platforms. I think AI is something similar where because you're kind of using it on daily basis, I think a lot of businesses will just expect that fractional marketers will be.

⁓ will have that kind of knowledge and expertise in the AI side. So I think having that ⁓ as a bow and you quiver, I think is gonna help you as well be kind of one of the key consultants that a business may bring in to help kind of develop their AI strategy and how they can use it across the whole business. ⁓

Simon Dell (37:06)
Mate, it's been an absolute pleasure. And obviously, as I say, you and I could probably talk for hours. ⁓ And there's a lot of other things to talk about. But, ⁓ you know, I kind of always, I always hold you up as a beacon of, ⁓ you know, fractional CMO. ⁓

skill or whatever it is but I think a lot of people could learn a lot of stuff from you so thank you for your time today. Last question if anyone wants to reach out to you what are the key contact details for you?

Chris Jowsey (37:40)
Yeah, sure, jump on the website nuggetdigital.com.au, that's where we do everything kind of fractional business-wise. And then we've started a new content series, mytwocents.com.au, where we survey marketers every month and kind of start sharing those insights. So, yep, they're the two places to kind of hit us up.

Simon Dell (37:58)
My business, two before this one was called Two Cents. So there you go. There's no such thing as an original idea anymore. Mate, thank you very much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for being on the show.

Chris Jowsey (38:03)
there we go. No, that's wrong.

Cheers. Thanks, Simon.