Exploring Faith in Action with Dr. Amy Sherman | The Intersection Podcast
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[00:00:00] Bob Varney: Well, welcome, uh, this is the Intersection, faith, work and Life, a podcast hosted by me and by Hugh Brandt. The intersection committed to helping people see the discipleship means that we live by faith in God in every area of our lives all the time. If you wanna hear more about discipleship stories and people living by faith I invite you to, to listen to this podcast and, and join us on the web and listen to the other podcasts that we have today, we're privileged to have Amy Sherman with us.

[00:00:32] Bob Varney: Amy has learned a BA in political Science at Messiah College, not too far from here, and an MA and PhD in International Economic Development from UVA, the University of Virginia. Today, Dr. Sherman directs the Sagamore Institute Center on Faith and Communities, and it's a capacity building initiative in congregations and faith-based community-based.

[00:00:55] Bob Varney: Organizations. It's the aim to help leaders invest more [00:01:00] strategically and effectively in their communities as agents of Mercy, justice, and Hope named, uh, not too long ago by Christianity today as one of the 50 most influential evangelical women in the us. So Dr. Sherman is the author of seven books and over a hundred articles essay.

[00:01:18] Bob Varney: Her most recent book, agents of Flourishing, pursuing Shalom in Every Corner of Society. You ought to get it and read it. It's a good book. Articles and essays have appeared in such magazines as Public Interest Policy Review. First Things, Christianity Today and many others. Amy works closely with Made to Flourish a pastor's network focused on the common good and issues of faith and work together.

[00:01:43] Bob Varney: Her devotional sharing God's Heart for the Poor is sold over 50,000 copies, so you'll enjoy today. Amy, uh, is a frequent speaker in many places, and we have the privilege of having here with us today. Amy, welcome to the intersection.

[00:01:58] Amy Sherman: Thank you so much for having me, Bob. [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Bob Varney: Well, it's, it's really my pleasure to have you and to, to hear from you now.

[00:02:05] Bob Varney: Uh, and we wanna start out just. With some personal stuff. We always like to know a little bit about you. Uh, I've given the folks some information about your professional life. Uh, I don't know what part of your private life or other things you might wanna share, but, uh, whatever you're willing to share with us, we'd love to hear.

[00:02:23] Amy Sherman: Sure, sure. Well, I'm a Yankee. I grew up outside of Buffalo, New York. And as a result of that, I. I'd be very happy never to see another snowflake. But, um, I've been living here in Charlottesville, Virginia since 1989. So it is really, uh, it is really home and, um, I'm so grateful to live in such a beautiful part of the country.

[00:02:51] Amy Sherman: My, my journey sort of has been just, going ever more south. So from, from growing up. In near Buffalo, New York, and [00:03:00] then going a little bit further south to Pennsylvania to go to school at Messiah College. Which was a, a, a wonderful place to be. I was a relatively new Christian and

[00:03:10] Bob Varney: ah, wow.

[00:03:11] Bob Varney: You know, we've got a great friend at Messiah and she was head of the, the dean of the Education School, I think. Okay. He, he was one of my mentors when I first became a Christian. Wow.

[00:03:22] Amy Sherman: Wow. Wow, wow. He had retired,

[00:03:24] Bob Varney: but, uh, I, Messiah college rang a wonderful bell with me when I heard, when I read that.

[00:03:29] Amy Sherman: Yeah.

[00:03:29] Amy Sherman: It was, it was a wonderful, a wonderful place to go. And then, uh, spent two years in between undergrad and graduate school in Washington, DC and that was also very, a very formative time. Maybe we'll get into that later. I worked for a Catholic scholar named George Weigel for those couple years, and then came to Charlottesville to go to the University of Virginia and then just never left.

[00:03:58] Amy Sherman: So I've been here ever [00:04:00] since.

[00:04:00] Bob Varney: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Somewhere right in 1989 is when we bought our place in Smith Mountain Lake, so we went through UVA territory quite regularly. It was great. It's a nice part of the country. I, uh, I went to school in Rochester. Okay. They call it Rochester up there, but it was, uh, not too far from Buffalo and, uh, we had lots of snow.

[00:04:22] Bob Varney: I mean, there were, there were times that the, uh, the river froze over and you could walk over it now. Uh, it doesn't do that anymore. It's gotten warmer. Right. But we went south just like you. I am, down into New York, down into Philadelphia, and then down here in DC and I've been here since 75 actually.

[00:04:39] Bob Varney: So it's been a long time. So tell us a little bit about your journey of just understanding God's kingdom. You know, what, how, you know, how, how big is it? Where is it? How do you, how'd you learn about it and what do you think about to, to,

[00:04:54] Amy Sherman: yeah. That it, that's been a, that's been an evolution I think.

[00:04:58] Amy Sherman: So I, I came to [00:05:00] Christ as a teenager at a Christian summer camp,

[00:05:04] Amy Sherman: uh,

[00:05:04] Amy Sherman: that I went to mainly 'cause I was in divorces at that time, and it was a horseback riding camp. You know, and the gospel that I heard there was what I would call sort of the, the innermost bullseye maybe, or something like that of, of the gospel the story of my own need for a savior.

[00:05:25] Amy Sherman: And of the gracious mercy, uh, of God displayed through Christ. Yeah. On the cross. And, and so kind of had that understanding at, at that time. But but I had also been part of a a youth group at a Methodist church that, you know, looking back now, I would sort of. Characterize that church as a, as a liberal Methodist church

[00:05:52] Amy Sherman: uhhuh.

[00:05:53] Amy Sherman: Um, a place where I didn't necessarily hear, hear that message of salvation, um, [00:06:00] but where I certainly got a glimpse of God's heart for justice which, which resonated with me very, very deeply. Right. Being at Messiah was very formative for me. It was actually the very first place I ever heard the phrase a Christian world and life view.

[00:06:23] Amy Sherman: Oh. Um, and so this. This notion that faith is for all areas of life, right? And you know, God is Lord over all. And in fact, Messiah's tagline is Christ preeminent. And that was a very exciting time for me discovering you CS Lewis discovering this. This notion of the kingdom of God and, and how it's an upside down kingdom [00:07:00] and how it is, it is permeating, you know, all of all of of life.

[00:07:06] Amy Sherman: And and then those two years that I mentioned in between Messiah and when I came to the University of Virginia those were formative too, because I was working for this. Brilliant scholar George Weibel. And it was a time of being introduced to Catholic social teaching. Ah,

[00:07:26] Amy Sherman: and

[00:07:27] Amy Sherman: that again, found a deep resonance in in, in me, and again.

[00:07:34] Amy Sherman: This notion that, that Christianity, it's a, it's a, it's a religion for the public square. It's, it's, it's, I, I don't think I heard of Kiper at that time.

[00:07:46] Amy Sherman: You know, I think that came a little bit later. But, but yeah, this, this idea of, of Christ overall. And then, uh, I would point to the, the writings of Nt Wright as, as having a [00:08:00] profound.

[00:08:00] Amy Sherman: Influence on my thinking about the kingdom of God and my thinking about what it means to be God's image bearers on this earth. And joining the Lord Jesus in his mission to bring renewal to all. To all things. Yeah.

[00:08:19] Bob Varney: Yeah. Um.

[00:08:21] Amy Sherman: So that's a, that's a little bit of the evolution I think of my, yeah.

[00:08:24] Amy Sherman: No, that's

[00:08:24] Bob Varney: great. That's great. Yeah. And I mean, I, I wish today that more people had gone through that kind of evolution because people have seemed to have drifted to a different one. Uh, you know, some of the studies that we've done and friends that we've got that have done some surveys, it seems like about 90% of.

[00:08:45] Bob Varney: Born again, going to heaven. Christians are stuck in the sacred secular divide. They don't recognize the breadth of the kingdom of God and the presence of God in all the things that we do. I remember one of my, one [00:09:00] of my first revelations some decades ago was just reading through Genesis and getting to, 31st verse of the first chapter.

[00:09:10] Bob Varney: And it just jumped out at me because it, it said, uh, you know, God had created all of these different things on the earth, in the sky. It was, you know, everything right? And then it says and God looked around at everything he had made, and that word just jumped out at me. And behold it was very good. And I thought, oh my goodness.

[00:09:27] Bob Varney: You, I had thought it was very good. 'cause you created us, on the sixth day. That's why it's good, but no, there was good all the way along. But the very good is, is the, the. All of it put together, and I thought, oh my goodness. I mean, I don't, I don't know exactly what, I don't remember the context of why I was reading that again.

[00:09:46] Bob Varney: But I just remember thinking, oh my goodness, that's different. You know, so, so between that and, you know, I had. My, my professional life was a serial entrepreneur [00:10:00] for 25 years before I got into the missionary work. And, uh, I, I got bored actually a little bit with my first company and I decided to do a real estate project.

[00:10:11] Bob Varney: So I built some buildings here in rest of Virginia and I was this was around 1980 when I was doing this, and Prime was at 20. I was a high risk borrowing at 22, a lot of money and offering wonderful mortgages. And we complain now at six to 7% mortgages. These were 18 at the time. It's crazy.

[00:10:33] Bob Varney: It's crazy. But I'm sitting at this traffic light and I'd been a Christian for 10 years 'cause I met Christ in graduate school and I feel like I heard God ask me a question. He said, Bob, did you ask me before you started that project? I remember thinking, well, of course not, you know, you don't care, but you have

[00:10:54] Amy Sherman: to do with it.

[00:10:54] Amy Sherman: You're over there in church. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:57] Bob Varney: Crazy. But you know, [00:11:00] those two things happened in a similar time period and it was the beginning of my journey around 1980 of beginning to understand this vast kingdom of God that coexists with us thinking of. Kingdoms and nations and cities and states and I I'm just curious now, you know, the kingdom calling book that was one of the first ones of yours that I read and we use often in our leadership circle.

[00:11:25] Bob Varney: How did that kind of come about?

[00:11:27] Amy Sherman: I think I.

[00:11:27] Amy Sherman: Well, I, you know, I come, I come to the faith and work sort of world and, and to that book Kingdom calling through a little bit of an odd route. Okay. A long time ago, 30 years ago, I helped to start. And essentially like an inner city ministry here in Charlottesville called Charlottesville Abundant Life.

[00:11:49] Amy Sherman: I read about that ministries.

[00:11:51] Bob Varney: Yep. That sounded really good. Yeah. You might, you might wanna tell us a little bit about it after you tell the story.

[00:11:55] Amy Sherman: Yeah. And so it's, uh, it's, it's sort of follows the model [00:12:00] of Christian Community Development Association and it's, um. It's a neighborhood just a couple blocks away.

[00:12:08] Amy Sherman: Neighborhood of close to 400 lower income families. And, um, and it was a church based work, uh, sort of a partnership between the church I was attending at the time and and the neighborhood association in that particular, uh, little, little community. And, kind of after I had been running the ministry for a number of years.

[00:12:31] Amy Sherman: I, I sort of had a bit of an epiphany and it related to, it related to the fact that every year, actually right around this time, sort of late August, I would have an opportunity to stand up in front of the congregation, which was about a thousand people at that time. And sort of give my annual spiel about, this ministry and what we do.

[00:12:54] Amy Sherman: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:55] Amy Sherman: And, and make my, you know, my call, my invitation for [00:13:00] folks to come and join the work that we were doing. And in the back of my mind, I would be thinking about all of the signup sheets that would be sitting at a table, you know, somewhere in the foyer. And how we needed whatever it was for that particular area.

[00:13:17] Amy Sherman: And maybe we needed, 22 tutors and we needed four basketball coaches and we needed, uh, you know, three people to help out with the Bible Club and we needed this and that and the other. And I would look out at that congregation of a thousand people and, I didn't realize it at the time I realized it.

[00:13:41] Amy Sherman: As I say, sort of looking back at that, what I realized was I was looking out at the, that. Collection of God's people and treating them completely generically and as sort of bodies to fulfill these different slots.

[00:13:58] Amy Sherman: I just [00:14:00] wanted, you know, it didn't matter who you were in your particularities all that much, I might learn about that later and I might mm-hmm.

[00:14:07] Amy Sherman: Find that interesting. But mostly I just, you know, I wanted to fill those, fill those slots and, and what I came to realize later. Was,

[00:14:18] Amy Sherman: How my

[00:14:21] Amy Sherman: failure to see people in their particularities,

[00:14:27] Amy Sherman: Meant that I was often asking them to serve in roles that were really not particularly strategic for accomplishing what the ministry really.

[00:14:38] Amy Sherman: Ultimately was about Mm. Because the ministry ultimately was about the flourishing in the fullest sense of that word. Yeah.

[00:14:46] Amy Sherman: The

[00:14:46] Amy Sherman: flourishing of the families in that community and the community itself. And that mean, and that meant that it would need to be a community of beauty and goodness and justice and [00:15:00] wholeness and prosperity.

[00:15:02] Amy Sherman: Yeah. And. Here I was slotting, bankers and people with an expertise in finance slotting them into bus driver roles or basketball coach roles.

[00:15:20] Bob Varney: And,

[00:15:20] Amy Sherman: you know, it wasn't necessarily a bad thing that a, that a finance expert would serve as a basketball. Coach. But how much more strategic, if I had paid attention to their vocational power and the person God had made them and the opportunities that God had given them to develop expertise.

[00:15:41] Amy Sherman: Because payday lending at that time was crushing our neighborhood. And people were, being caught in cycles of debt trap. Of, of a debt trap and, the finance and bankers people from my church, maybe they could have [00:16:00] played a powerful role in addressing

[00:16:03] Bob Varney: Right. That

[00:16:04] Amy Sherman: injustice. But, you know, I wasn't seeing it.

[00:16:08] Amy Sherman: Yes. So kingdom calling, you know, the, the specific motivation at the particular time when it was like, oh, I need to write a book. The particular motivation had to do with a sort of scholarly study that I was looking at by a sociologist who had, um, interviewed I can't remember. It was a few hundred Christian professionals, uh, often very.

[00:16:33] Amy Sherman: Sort of people with a great deal of vocational power, CEOs of big companies and this sort of thing. Yeah. Faith in the

[00:16:40] Bob Varney: halls of power sounds like Yes, it is.

[00:16:43] Amy Sherman: Faith in the halls of power. That's right. Okay. And it was a very good book. And it was a very good study. It was very well done. He is a very good scholar.

[00:16:50] Amy Sherman: Yep. But I was depressed by the findings.

[00:16:54] Bob Varney: Amen to that 'cause

[00:16:56] Amy Sherman: with, with only a what seemed like a handful [00:17:00] of exceptions. The vision that these believers who had tremendous authority Yes. And influence their vision for what it meant to live their faith out at work was often so small. And it, you know, it was, I've got this, my favorite Bible verse on a plaque hanging in on the wall. It was like, oh my goodness, you're a CEO of a company with, you know, hundreds of employees. So I just thought, you know, there, there, there's gotta be people out there. There's gotta be Christians out there working in their work a day jobs, whether they're bankers, finance people, whether they're artists, whether they're accountants, whether they are teachers, social workers politicians, writers.

[00:17:51] Amy Sherman: Yep. You name it. There're just, there's gotta be some people out there whose understanding of what it means to live their faith out [00:18:00] through the work that they do. Taking the work itself seriously.

[00:18:04] Bob Varney: Yep.

[00:18:05] Amy Sherman: They've just gotta be out there. I just need to find them and then I wanna write about them. And I wanna think about, gosh, how can we do a better job?

[00:18:14] Amy Sherman: In our churches helping disciple people with a vision for living out their faith in and through their work. So that, down, down the road when the next sociologist comes along to do a, a very fancy, very, scholarly study Yeah. Will, will find different findings than right than what were reported in that book.

[00:18:40] Bob Varney: Yeah. Yeah. I, I wish that that were actually true. I'm sad to say that I think that doing that survey again today would find similar results, you know, because it's, I think only barely 10% of Christians seem to. Understand that [00:19:00] their work actually does matter. You know, it's a part of God's plan. It's a part of how you were designed.

[00:19:05] Bob Varney: I mean, the reason you're working and the way you place your work, typically. I mean, all, all of us who have choices some people who are just barely scraping by don't have quite as many choices. Okay? But any of us who have choices, who run companies or do any of that, God designed us.

[00:19:20] Bob Varney: And we just don't get it, have, you know, most of the time. And you know, we're, I mean, all of what you just said resonates. The same book resonated with me. Um, and, uh, and I, I remember calling up and asking about some of the conclusions to that book. I think they were covered a little too lightly for, uh, you know, reasons of selling the book or something, you know.

[00:19:48] Bob Varney: So it was it's, uh, it's a place we still find ourselves. I mean, I'd love to have. Any of your, your thoughts?

[00:19:56] Amy Sherman: I'm not quite as pessimistic. I do think there's been [00:20:00] change. I think you're generally right that the majority of Christians struggle very much to, to do what my friend Tom Nelson calls, connecting Sunday to Monday.

[00:20:10] Amy Sherman: Right. There's, there's a ton of work, a ton of work that, that, that remains. But that said, I think that there has been progress in the past. 15 years. There's just a lot more thought going into this. There's a lot more attention, there's way more books on the shelf. I'm very proud of Made To Flourish.

[00:20:34] Amy Sherman: The Pastor's Network that you mentioned I think Made To Flourish is doing a terrific job of. Helping pastors and church leaders, right, to make those connections. Uh, and then to do a much better job as a result discipling the people that are in their pews. And there's, you know, there's conferences and and you know, I'm I, Bob, I've had the chance the last few years to be [00:21:00] part of.

[00:21:01] Amy Sherman: Running a fellows program up in Michigan for young adults, so, you know, the, the believers that are in their twenties. And I, prior to that, I had a lot of opportunity to, to do speaking and teaching and some mentoring,

[00:21:17] Bob Varney: uh,

[00:21:18] Amy Sherman: of that age group in a, in a variety of, of fellows programs in including a, a very fine one that happens here in Charlottesville at Trinity Presbyterian Church.

[00:21:27] Amy Sherman: And, interacting with those young people also made me aware that the Christian colleges are seeming to be doing a better job of this also.

[00:21:40] Bob Varney: Yeah.

[00:21:40] Amy Sherman: So, so I think there's been some modest progress

[00:21:44] Bob Varney: yeah. I, I would, would agree. Long

[00:21:46] Amy Sherman: way to go. But, but some progress,

[00:21:47] Bob Varney: It's modest progress.

[00:21:48] Bob Varney: I, I remember looking at my bookshelf a while ago. Maybe even a decade ago when I first began thinking seriously about this and recognizing that. You know, there were, there were about [00:22:00] two books. I mean, Oz Guness wrote a book on the call, and, uh, John Beckett wrote one on Loving Monday, you know, back in 98, 99 and almost nothing else.

[00:22:10] Bob Varney: Okay. Uh, I mean, Doug Sherman and Bill Hendricks did that earlier book that it didn't get traction at all. Okay. And I talked to Bill recently and he's, he's redoing it. I don't know if you've talked to him. And, uh, so, I mean, I'm, I'm. Pleased that there's so many books available and so many resources now that's primarily United States.

[00:22:30] Bob Varney: I mean, the rest of the world is more in need of it. And I did, had, I had asked Tom to be on my advisory group when we put it together back in 2019. And he, he, because of his focus on the United States and you know, I, I, I have a focus on a little on the globe. So he, he didn't want to.

[00:22:49] Bob Varney: Spend much time outside there. But I really applaud the work of working with pastors and yet it does seem that there are I guess I could just say I wish it, I wish it had gone [00:23:00] further and it still has much, much more to go. So, so tell us a little bit about this agents of Flourishing book that you just, uh, recently put out. And I'm sure they're connected. But it, it does take you in a slightly different direction.

[00:23:16] Amy Sherman: Yeah. Yeah. I, um, so what I was seeing in part through my work with Made to Flourish was.

[00:23:26] Amy Sherman: The, an increasing passion on the part of pastors, particularly younger pastors.

[00:23:34] Bob Varney: Yeah. I think the younger generation provides a lot of hope for this. Yeah, I really do.

[00:23:40] Amy Sherman: Yeah. Seeing them articulate this earnest desire that their churches would be.

[00:23:50] Amy Sherman: You know, Jeremiah 29 7 churches yes, churches that seek the peace and prosperity of their city. And tied with that earnestness and [00:24:00] that and that passion was.

[00:24:02] Amy Sherman: Wonderings and questions and how do we do it and what does it exactly look like and how do we get started and, you know, all, all that kind of, all that kind of thing. And so that, that motivated me to think about could I write something that would be helpful mm-hmm. For, you know, pastors and church leaders like that.

[00:24:24] Amy Sherman: So that was an important kind of strand of motivation behind that book. And, and the other, the other sort of strand of motivation for that actually came in a, a a, in a conversation with a relative of mine who is, um, pretty hostile to, to Christianity and, and to the church. And I won't go into that whole story, but Sure.

[00:24:47] Amy Sherman: What was very clear to me in that conversation. Was that she was ignorant about a, a lot of good that [00:25:00] the church has done both historically. Uh, and, in, in our own time. And I, I remember what one, I had the opportunity to give a couple examples and I made some comment about churches being, churches in I think the example I was giving her was was, was text, was, uh, Colorado and it was about churches having been very, very aggressively involved in, recruiting foster families, uh, families who would adopt and, and how there were these collaborations happening between networks of churches and the state government agencies that were, overseeing, uh, the needs of kids in.

[00:25:46] Amy Sherman: Residential foster facilities and orphanages, et cetera, et cetera. And how, you know, the, the churches were really making a. A pretty significant impact to the point that the [00:26:00] numbers of kids in, in foster care in non-home based foster care. Yes. Were, were really, really coming down.

[00:26:07] Amy Sherman: And it was clear to me as I explained some of those things, which I, I did better than I just did now. It landed. It sort of, it didn't, you know, it shouldn't like convert on the spot or anything like that. No. But it was arresting to her.

[00:26:24] Amy Sherman: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:25] Amy Sherman: Uh, and. She's like, well, nobody knows those stories.

[00:26:32] Bob Varney: Ah,

[00:26:32] Amy Sherman: you know, it's like, and you know, like everybody knows about the Crusades, but nobody knows about those stories. Right. And I, I walked away from that conversation and it just, it really, it, the Lord used it to say, pay attention.

[00:26:49] Amy Sherman: Sure. To

[00:26:49] Amy Sherman: that. And I thought about, I thought about my own heart and how I can get.

[00:26:54] Amy Sherman: Discouraged when I mm-hmm. Hear the bad stories, you know, [00:27:00] the sex scandals in the Catholic church and this and that and the other, and how my own heart feels heavy and, and grieves. And I thought, I know there are so many, my, in my career, one of, one of the greatest blessings, maybe even the greatest blessing has been the fact that for.

[00:27:21] Amy Sherman: More than three decades I have gotten to travel around and be on the front lines of seeing God at work through his people.

[00:27:32] Bob Varney: Yes.

[00:27:32] Amy Sherman: Congregations and, and faith-based ministries.

[00:27:35] Bob Varney: Yes.

[00:27:36] Amy Sherman: Doing. The work of the Kingdom in Word indeed and bringing about real change and real healing and real hope and opportunity.

[00:27:47] Amy Sherman: And it has been a source of profound joy to get to, to see those things. And I thought, you know, I wanna write a book that that talks about those stories [00:28:00] and that. That also, and, you know, talks about the contemporary stories and that also reminds us of our heritage. Yeah,

[00:28:10] Amy Sherman: yeah, yeah. Um, I

[00:28:11] Amy Sherman: think working on the church history side of the book was one of the most fun aspects for me.

[00:28:18] Amy Sherman: Because, you know, I knew some stories, but I learned a whole lot more. Right. Um, and. So the, the book I think tries to inspire inspire us all as we think about this work of joining Jesus in his comprehensive redemption of, of all things. And then it tries to provide some handholds.

[00:28:47] Amy Sherman: And a very, I think a very wise framework that is useful to church leaders. My, my friend Josh Yates, who used to be at at UVA and he's now [00:29:00] down at, at Belmont but he and his team at Thriving Cities Group

[00:29:04] Amy Sherman: had,

[00:29:04] Amy Sherman: Created this. This framework that they call the, uh, it's called the Human Ecology Framework, uhhuh.

[00:29:12] Amy Sherman: And it's about this idea that a thrive, what makes a thriving city? Well, in order to have a thriving city, a thriving community you need to have strength and health in six arenas of. Okay. Of sort of civilizational life. Okay. And they called those six arenas, the six community endowments, and three of them are the familiar transcendentals, the realm of the good, the true and the beautiful.

[00:29:38] Amy Sherman: And then they added to that the realm of the, just the prosperous and the sustainable.

[00:29:44] Bob Varney: Okay. And,

[00:29:44] Amy Sherman: and each of those terms. References, you know, sort of the sectors of society that are involved. For example, in the case of the prosperous, everything to do with business and the economy. Right. The economic life [00:30:00] of a community the sustainable, the realm of, of human and natural.

[00:30:05] Amy Sherman: Health, you can't have a thriving city if you don't have public health. You don't have public sanitation.

[00:30:11] Bob Varney: Right, right, right. The

[00:30:13] Amy Sherman: And the like and these pastors that were saying, you know, we wanna be a, a Jeremiah 29 7 church who wanna seek the flourishing of our community. What I found is I sort of tried out that framework on some of them.

[00:30:28] Amy Sherman: In some of the learning communities that, that I was helping to run through made to flourish was that this was helpful, like thinking about, oh, these sort of, these six realms and here's the sorts of activities that happens in this realm. And I can sort of imagine my church finding a place. Thinking about who is sitting in the pews and thinking about that in the particularities, right?

[00:30:51] Amy Sherman: Yes. Um, who has God brought to my congregation and where are they working and what is their, what is their knowledge and their [00:31:00] gifts and where, where might we fit in and how might we. Make a difference. And and so that's what the book tries to do. It's sort of, it's organized by those, those six sort of realms.

[00:31:12] Amy Sherman: And then it tries to talk about God's vision, uh, of what flourishing is for those realms, how the church has contributed to that in the past, and then examples of contemporary churches doing the same.

[00:31:26] Bob Varney: Yeah, no, that's, that's great. That's a great background too. And I think about. Some of this two or three thoughts are flying into my mind here about what kind of things can be done.

[00:31:38] Bob Varney: Especially in, in educating, educating too strong. We use the word awaken, awakening more Christians to the understanding of, of this, okay. We try to awaken equipment, unleash people to do what God intended them to do, to begin with. So, um. I, I had some, a wonderful couple decade experience [00:32:00] chairing a group called Table 71.

[00:32:02] Bob Varney: I don't know if you ever ran into it. Uh, it was all about unreached people groups in the world. Okay. Uh, it started with Billy Graham back in 2000. He had bought 10,000 evangelists and missionaries to Amsterdam. I was in a, a small session, I mean, 700 and some odd people small uh, that Paul Usman began to put together.

[00:32:22] Bob Varney: And what he recognized before he came in is that there was a large number of, of people groups in the world when there were no missionaries. Nobody was trying. I mean, it was just like this empty space 2000 years after Christ. And, and there's nobody even trying to reach 500 million people in the world, right?

[00:32:41] Bob Varney: So this little thing around a table with the number 71 on it formed and it was the heads of ywam and Wycliffe and Forks of the Bible and the, so the Mission Boards, international Mission Board of Southern Baptist, a few others. Anyway, so I got the chair that for 20 years. The fascinating part. Well, when I first [00:33:00] started, I hardly knew what a people group was.

[00:33:01] Bob Varney: You know, I mean, I'm fresh, I'm fresh off the business track. You know, I just finished 25 years of entrepreneurial stuff. And what? One, one little thing got to me was Bruce. Bruce Wilkinson mentioned that when he was trying to figure out what people groups was, he should go hug the, the globe and ask God to help him see.

[00:33:20] Bob Varney: I thought, well, that's, that's a good image. But what I, one of the things I saw was the partnering that went on, which was really exciting. Okay, so here you have a whole bunch of large sending organizations. They'd send missionaries out all over the world, but most of them, us based at that time. And they had things that they did basically every day.

[00:33:40] Bob Varney: And it wasn't trying to figure out these unengaged groups that there was just a whole other group of people. So it took us a few years to get organized and we had a, a conference down at the Cove with, you know, Billy Graham's place in 2005. And the, the very fascinating statistic is that that time there were [00:34:00] 639 large groups, at least a hundred thousand people in each group, alright?

[00:34:04] Bob Varney: That there were no missionaries, nobody trying, nobody doing anything. So we had a common goal, we had some common measurements. We got together, we had some communication. So we had some of the things that, that in hindsight, we looked back and figured out why some of this began to work. Uh, but most of it was just about God bringing us together.

[00:34:23] Bob Varney: So 639 groups in 2005, 2015, there's only six that remain unengaged. They'd all been filled by multiple numbers of missionaries going to the larger places, you know, and you think, wow. And the thing that I learned was that you had a bunch of people who. All cared about that part of the Great commission they cared about.

[00:34:49] Bob Varney: Right? And the day job wasn't necessarily focused on that, but they cared. So the agenda I would put together was really simple. Paul [00:35:00] would come and tell us what happened since four months ago, since the last time we met. How many groups have now have missionaries and how many fell. Fell off, 'cause there were some of those too. And then I would just get reports from people of what happened in the last four months in your outfit. Inevitably there was something that God has done in someplace in the world that got somebody else at the table excited and on side conversation goes along and you put a little partnership together to go do this other thing.

[00:35:26] Bob Varney: So I mean, it was, it was marvelous. But to think that there were. At the time, and I think it's been grown, but it was over 70,000 bivocational people engaged in this around the world.

[00:35:38] Amy Sherman: Wow. And

[00:35:39] Bob Varney: that's only because there's a bunch of leaders, the guys in YWAM who said it was okay to talk to one of those guys over in Crew, you know, and the guys, you know, and walked through as they could talk to these other Baptist, it was okay.

[00:35:50] Bob Varney: You know, I mean, so I mean, it was just, it was just a. It, it allowed that kind of thing to happen out in the field easily. And I've thought about trying to [00:36:00] get something like that going with this idea of God matters in everything you do. And it just ran across my mind again. You know, I know Tom's been doing a lot of work with pastors.

[00:36:11] Bob Varney: You know, you've got a heart for this. Uh, there are quite a number of people who have a heart and I, I just don't know what might happen. If you got a dozen people from different places in the world. Yeah.

[00:36:24] Amy Sherman: Yeah. A lot of people do gather, I don't know if you've gone, they do gather for the, the global faith and work summits.

[00:36:31] Bob Varney: Yep.

[00:36:31] Amy Sherman: Um, and there's one coming up in Cincinnati.

[00:36:34] Bob Varney: Yep.

[00:36:35] Amy Sherman: Uh, next year, some of the groups do get together and, and the city gates, um, movement some of those folks get, are getting together. So I think we're seeing some, well, you're

[00:36:47] Bob Varney: seeing some of that. It's a little different. I mean, I, I we actually began some of the faith and work stuff way back in 12, and then and then it, it it's continued.

[00:36:57] Bob Varney: I mean, the one in Dallas with bill [00:37:00] Peel and bill Hendrickson. Yeah. But I mean, what. When I first started to thinking about this, we, we started to pull people together to try to do that, and the conferences are very good, and you go back and see the people that you haven't seen in a while and you, you do find out some of those things.

[00:37:15] Bob Varney: This table, 71 thing was a little smaller. I mean a lot smaller. I mean, there were a dozen people and a lot more personal and intense. Yeah. Uh, and. And I, I don't find that when I go to conferences, I enjoy and I, and I do meet some people and I meet some people that I haven't seen in a long time. So that's always fun.

[00:37:38] Bob Varney: And once in a while something comes outta it.

[00:37:41] Amy Sherman: But I yearn for a way to make that

[00:37:44] Bob Varney: more intentional.

[00:37:47] Amy Sherman: Yeah. To have

[00:37:47] Bob Varney: it, have it grow. I, and I don't, I don't know how, I mean, I've tried a couple times actually. I mean, it hasn't worked for me. Let's take a look at your thoughts on what, [00:38:00] what is needed in the Christian world.

[00:38:03] Bob Varney: 'Cause there are so many people, um, that I find and still so many churches who, who don't appreciate. That God needs to be in everything, in, in the presence of the kingdom of God. And, you know, we talk in the US about the separation of church and state, and people believe it like it's fact.

[00:38:21] Bob Varney: Just like people believe, an evolution, like it's fact. And yet we, we need to somehow awaken more Christians. To the notion of, uh, has God put you together for some kind of justice. I mean, we have three, three guys out of our leadership circle in Denver. Three different cohorts, uh, over the years.

[00:38:45] Bob Varney: Uh, we got them together to ask them to help out with something else. And as they introduced one another, they all found out that they cared about generational poverty. So whatever it is we had intended, it didn't happen. Okay? But what has happened, uh, is that they've put [00:39:00] this little clap in circle, they call it together.

[00:39:02] Bob Varney: It's about about 30 different companies engaged in it. Uh, they've got a navigator who is assigned to someone who wants to get out of poverty. When some part of the things that go wrong. Go wrong. They call the navigator, that's their nine one one call. So whether you've got a flat tire or whether you've got a mortgage problem or whether you got a child problem or whether you got a health, I mean, any one of the things that breaks in your life and you don't know how to deal with it, uh, and it's really getting subtraction, is a couple of states that have looked at that effort that have brought them over and said, Hey, you know, how can we learn from you?

[00:39:37] Bob Varney: And I mean there, there are some very exciting things happening in a lot of places and I, and I agree that stories matter. The stories that you've got in, in, uh, agents of Flourishing is, is just great because we, we'd use a quote. I it I can't, I don't have it memorized, but it's basically worldview changes with story.

[00:39:59] Bob Varney: It, it [00:40:00] doesn't change with arguments. It doesn't change with information. It changes when you, when you get caught up in a story and begin to realize that something is different. In that story than you experience in your life and you begin to, to change. So I keep looking for ways, I'm sure you do too of how can we help more Christians understand what, what you and I have understood and that met, you know, quite a number of other people have understood, but not quite, not enough Christians.

[00:40:32] Amy Sherman: Yeah. Well, I mean, you mentioned the sacred secular divide earlier in our conversation, and I, I think that remains the, you know, the, the biggest obstacle. And it's wrong theology, right? Um, so I, I have been grateful for the efforts that have happened in the past. 10, 15 years at a, at a number of the seminaries where seminaries are trying to [00:41:00] understand this, whole life gospel and whole life discipleship and, and the gospel of the kingdom and, because the, we've gotta, the seminaries, if we're gonna, if we need to change the theology, then the seminaries have to be involved, right? Right. They've gotta teach, they've gotta teach a, a better, more accurate, Yep. More accurate theology. Um, and then, there's just, there's some very practical things that, that.

[00:41:31] Amy Sherman: I've seen change at churches when the leadership does get the theology right? Yeah. Then they also have to start to monitor their language very carefully. Yes. And, and look at the ways in which traditional activities that. Happen at the church may or may not align with this [00:42:00] sort of new theology they're preaching, right?

[00:42:01] Amy Sherman: So if every, if every September you, you bring up all the Sunday school teachers and you commission them for their incredible work that how wonderful that they are doing teaching. Sunday school, you can be in the pulpit till you're blue in the face saying that your work matters. And Right. And you know, there's not this big, sacred secular divide.

[00:42:20] Amy Sherman: But if the only people we ever bring up front are the full-time missionaries who've gone off to, wherever to, to do the great work that they do, and hallelujah for it. I mean, I want right. Well, I'm not saying let's stop commissioning the missionaries, but if you never commission your business people

[00:42:39] Amy Sherman: Yes.

[00:42:39] Amy Sherman: And if I, in September you only commission your Sunday school teachers and you don't have your public school teachers and administrators, uh, right. You know, stand up and commission them for the godly important work they're doing. Um, then. You're not, you know, your, your language and, and your actions are not reinforcing the theology.

[00:42:59] Amy Sherman: You know, if you, if [00:43:00] you're still talking about how, Bob left his job as a lawyer and went into ministry. Right. As though as being a lawyer for all those years, that that wasn't a ministry. Right. So there's really practical, things that have to change also if we're gonna, if we're really gonna sort of, push back this very problematic way of thinking.

[00:43:23] Amy Sherman: Yes. That, that does very much in infect a lot of a, a lot of, of congregations.

[00:43:31] Bob Varney: Yeah.

[00:43:32] Bob Varney: Yeah, it does. Yeah. And Steve Garber and he has over the years had some real impact on the church that I go to here. Uh, absolutely we do pay for people in the workplace. But we actually don't commission, and it's it's a step that's very valuable to take.

[00:43:52] Bob Varney: I agree with you. And, uh, I would I would just love, love to see it. I mean, just the, the [00:44:00] privilege that, that we have. Um, much like you've seen as you looked at the stories that you put in your book, when you hear people who do this they, when they come out of going through a leadership circle and many of them say, well, why didn't anybody tell me this before?

[00:44:15] Bob Varney: It's right there in the scriptures. And, um, don't have a good answer for that question. But their whole life changes. I mean, their whole attitude for everyday changes, their walk with God changes, uh, how they affect other people changes. They become a witness as opposed to go witnessing. Right?

[00:44:33] Bob Varney: And it's it becomes an inherent thing in your life. Uh, and it's just so delightful to see that happen to people. And and the only sad part is. I wanna see it happen to more people.

[00:44:45] Amy Sherman: Right, right. Abso absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:44:48] Bob Varney: Yeah, so. Well, this has been fun, Amy. It's been fun to reconnect with you.

[00:44:53] Bob Varney: Really. I've enjoyed it. Yeah. And any, uh, any, uh, final comments you wanna leave with us? I mean, I know everybody [00:45:00] should go get all your books and read all your stuff 'cause it's good stuff.

[00:45:03] Amy Sherman: Well, more important than that, everybody should go and get some anti rights books, especially Surprised by Hope.

[00:45:09] Bob Varney: Ah, yes.

[00:45:09] Amy Sherman: That's, that's a book I always constantly recommending. It's such a, such an incredible.

[00:45:14] Bob Varney: Indeed. We, we use, we use that regularly in our course.

[00:45:18] Amy Sherman: Well, good to be with you, Bob. Thank you for inviting me into the conversation.

[00:45:23] Bob Varney: Oh, my pleasure. Uh, I'm really pleased that, that you were able to be here and that you didn't have other things stopping you from doing that.

[00:45:29] Bob Varney: And, uh, so we'll, we'll be in touch. This, uh, this podcast will be available probably beginning of next month. I don't know, website. And, uh, I'd, I'd love to, I'd love to get back together again, uh, at some point. So all, I'll probably give you a call,

[00:45:45] Amy Sherman: rest of your plans. All right, thank,

[00:45:48] Bob Varney: alright.

[00:45:48] Bob Varney: Thanks Amy. Really appreciate being with you.

[00:45:50] Amy Sherman: Yep. Bye.

[00:45:51] Bob Varney: Let me, uh, close this then in, uh, just thanking, uh, not just. Amy, but thanking all of you for, [00:46:00] uh, listening here on our podcast. Uh, we are, it's a Faith and Work and Life podcast called The Intersection. And you can find us at, uh, c project global.com.

[00:46:11] Bob Varney: All of the information is on the website, and we would invite you to, to join us to learn about some of the things that Amy and I have talked about today. You'll be able to hear that podcast, uh, on the website soon. And you'll also be able to see other information and how to get involved and get your life maybe to change and, uh, be a different a different kind of Christian than you are before one that you didn't know you could be.

[00:46:36] Bob Varney: So thank you Amy. Thanks again for being with us. God bless you.

[00:46:41] Amy Sherman: Bye.