Yiannis Sophocleous: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome everyone to this, uh, special Labor Party conference edition of The Better Places podcast here in Liverpool. I'm Janice Velos from Concilio, and I'm joined by my colleague and co-host for the day c Dwyer.

Siddo Dwyer: Hello everyone and, uh, welcome my name's to do Dwyer. Um, it was great to be here in Liverpool, especially for the Labor Party conference, for labor setting its mission, uh, for government.

That's one built around fairness, uh, growth, and of course getting Britain building again. Hi everyone and welcome back to The Better Places podcast. My name is Sadhu Dwyer, and, uh, today myself and Yani are interviewing a great panel on a discussion to make London fun again. Uh, we're here in Liverpool, uh, labor's setting out its new mission for government one.

Uh. Features both growth, fairness, and of course getting written, building again. Uh, and that makes today's theme make London fun again, a timely one. Um, we're talking about how our public spaces, [00:01:00] high streets and London's experience economy can drive growth and investment and community life. We've got four fantastic guests, uh, counselor Jeff Cloth, who is a cabinet member for planning and economic development.

Uh. Uh, Westminster City Council. Welcome, Jeff.

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: Uh, thank you.

Siddo Dwyer: Uh, we also have councilor, uh, Pia, uh, uh, cabinet member for leisure parks and young people at Southern Council. Welcome.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Thank you for having me.

Siddo Dwyer: Uh, and accompanying them, uh, Anton Rafford, head of Public Affairs, the heart of London. Heart of London Business Alliance.

Welcome.

Antonia Stratford: Thank you. Great to be here.

Siddo Dwyer: And of course, Graham Craig, uh, director and chief executive of Places for London. Welcome.

Graeme Craig: It's a pleasure.

Siddo Dwyer: Uh. Before we dive into London specifically, uh, it'd be remiss of me to not ask how we all think the mood at conference is going. So already a big couple days we have Steve Reed pledging to, uh, build baby, build three [00:02:00] new towns, um, one of which, um, actually 12, uh, new new town, um, priorities, one of which are.

Uh, coming forward in, uh, my native and for signaling a speeding up of planning and a clear focus on housing and growth. So in a sentence or two guys, uh. What stood out to you so far in the last few days and what do you feel the mood's like?

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: Well, the mood's mood's pretty good because there's lots of interesting announcements.

We're moving things in the right direction. Uh, and I just wish everyone would get a little bit ob less obsessed about, uh, an election that will happen in 2029 and more obsessed about what we can do in the 12 months ahead.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Absolutely.

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: There's investment in a whole variety different. Sectors housing the industrial strategy.

We're sorting out renters rights, we're sorting out employment rights. It's what you expect a labor government to do. So generally, yeah, just everyone relax.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: I think I've been very optimistic. I'm [00:03:00] obviously seeing the news for the last PA couple of weeks. It's been a bit daunting, but coming here and speaking to everybody, um, going to the fringes, we're talking about, um, the things that we're doing in our communities.

I mean, the investment that we're making with young people has been absolutely amazing. Last, I think the last two weeks we've been talking about, um, youth opportunities and the work. And investing in youth clubs and investing in our young people in our community. So I'm actually very, I'm happy to hear it more than I have.

In the last couple weeks,

Siddo Dwyer: Antonio Graham.

Antonia Stratford: Um, yeah, I just echo those, those comments. I think there's a, there's a really positive vibe as the, as the kids say at the conference. Um, and I've just been listening to, to Rachel Reeve's speech, um, just a couple of hours ago. I think it was great. She, she reiterated the government's plans for housing planning, which is all positive.

But of course I am gonna bring this up. There was only one mention of London, uh, and, and the wider Southeast, and I think a lot of her speech did focus on support and investment. Outside of London. Um, and, and also hinted that [00:04:00] the big sort of thing that we've all been waiting for, the sort of harsh global headwinds ahead of the budget.

So no, no hint really about what she's gonna do, but, uh, yeah, so interesting.

Siddo Dwyer: I'm sure we'll, we'll dive in, especially when, uh, Yani takes of the hot chair. Uh, hey, look, Graham,

Graeme Craig: um, the mood music's all positive. I think lots of talk about growth, lots of talk about housing. Great to hear the news about the new towns and fantastic.

I think that two of those new towns is. Based in London. Yeah. Um, so, you know, for me, uh, the context here is the single most helpful thing, a government that's talking about what it is that matters. And, uh, you know, the number of times I've seen hats with build, bb, build on, on them. Um, I think for

Siddo Dwyer: Lost Mine, actually, I think I left it in someone's bag, but, uh.

Graeme Craig: The single most helpful thing for me is knowing that I can sit opposite people who might be expressing some qualms about [00:05:00] individual schemes that we're keen to bring forward, and I've then got the chance to say to them, how does what you're saying? Chime with a very clear message from the government of Build Baby, build.

Yiannis Sophocleous: Yeah, now I'm Giannis. Uh, I'm also taking the hot seat now alongside my colleague du. These are very, really interesting reflections of the conference so far, and I think they set up us perfectly for the theme of today's episode, which is how to Make London fun again. Obviously, some argue that London is already fun.

Still, it's being fun. It's five brands, it's global, it's buzzing, but others argue that, uh, affordability challenges, viability challenges, rising costs, and policy headwinds are really clouding this story. Uh, Jeff, let me start off this question with you. How do you see this from a Westminster perspective?

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: Uh, well, I think London is. Still fun. I think it's a lot more fun than it was, uh, when I was 30 years younger. Um, there's a [00:06:00] huge amount going on, but what we define as fun and what young people define as fun, I think maybe is changed. It's much less focused around drinking and much more focused around experience and differentiation and things you can tell your friends about.

Yeah. And novelty. So look in, in the West End, we have a hundred commercial. Galleries, 53 music venues, 39 theaters, four casinos, 11 dance venues, and three world-leading art galleries. If you can't find anything to do, uh, I, I think you need to, uh, look a bit harder and people complain. They. Have to go home early.

Can I tell you? We have 417 venues with a license after 2:00 AM with a capacity of 158,000 people. Again, if you can't find something to do, um, it may be those venues don't offer what the modern consumer is looking for. Maybe they play the wrong kind of music and maybe they're more expensive, but that's not something the local authority.

Can get involved with. We didn't decide what kind of music people play or how much they charge for a pint of beer. So I think there's plenty of activity going [00:07:00] on, but it's, um, it, it, it is, it is changing.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No, that's true. And I think, Antonio, let me come to you next on this one. From a heart of London, uh, perspective, I know Jeff mentioned the West End.

How do you see it from a business perspective in terms of the West End, uh, of the confidence of, of its competitiveness in comparison to other, uh, cultural, uh, districts in the.

Antonia Stratford: Well, Jeff just stolen all my statistics that I was gonna read out. I've probably got them from you. I'm telling you, I'm desperate.

Looking at my list thinking, if I can add to that. But what I would say absolutely London is, listen, we we're all, you know, it's a, it's a fa fun, fantastic global, iconic city, amazing heritage, world class art, nightlife, food, fashion, music festivals, a huge diversity and a reputation for creative. Innovation, and I've heard this a lot in the last couple of days.

You know, we have 17 universities in London, ranked in the top 10 globally. And just to sort of drill down a little bit, uh, from my sort of tourism background, the UK is a top 10 tourism destination and half of all international [00:08:00] visitors come to London and, and recently voted number one, TripAdvisor Travelers Choice.

Choice Award. So clearly we've got a huge amount going for the city. But, um, yeah, I'm gonna come onto some of, some of those head headwinds. And I, I've written down here, fund Needs Foundation to be fixed for it to flourish. I was quite, quite proud of that alliteration. Um, and, and, and, uh, the experience economy, which I know will come on to talk about.

It's, it almost hasn't sort of evolved with a policy framework. And we don't want the, to stifle the very industries that make London unique. I mean. The experience economy, um, has a huge growth potential. The UK valued at 300 billion globally forecast to reach 12.8 trillion by 2028. So we need to really capitalize on that.

But as I said, the policy framework we, we don't think is sort of keeping up with that. Um, so we're, look, obviously high operating costs of businesses. Well, well promoted the changes to ai, the business rates, uh, minimum wage. I I heard a stat the other day that beer is tacked three times before it cross [00:09:00] crosses the bar.

Um, crime and safety, again, this is not gonna be a new topic for, for anyone around this. There's table people want to feel safe when out and about, and I think the MET police are very, very open about that fact. That was. Levels of violent crime have decreased levels of petty crimes. That's a shop theft and mobile phone theft and instance of antisocial behavior, unfortunately have increased.

Um, we could talk about planning and licensing. Jess, Jeff's favorite, favorite area. And our, our, we listen to our members, uh, they tell us there are inconsistencies between the two frameworks. Licensing policy can be rigid, unrestricted, we know that. Obviously central government and Westminster are looking at that at the moment and transport as well.

Thursday night now is the new Friday nights. Um, but again, we want to see, and again, I know there's a lot of complexities with this. We want to see the night tube extended to Thursday, even if only by an hour, just to keep up with that post pandemic, um, reform. So changes in consumer habits. Sorry, I probably talked too much there.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No, no, no. That's, uh, very interesting and [00:10:00] uh. Porsche coming to you. Now, obviously there is life outside Westminster, uh, as well. I mean, south Org is one of the youngest boroughs, uh, uh, in London. Do you think that the young people in Yarborough feel that, uh, London is as fun and accessible as it should be and yeah, what can be done in order to make it even funner?

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Honestly, um, the quick answer is no. We don't think it's as fun. And I say we, I'm a young adult now. I'm not a young person anymore, sadly. Um, but it's, it's not as fun as it should be. One, because none of us have any money to enjoy. It's, it's bleak for us at the moment, and that's why, so with my experience as the, um, cabinet member for leisure, um, and culture, so culture and festivals are in my brief and.

The ideas that we're trying, well, the experiences we're trying to create, we're talking about the experience economy. We need things to be around us and that gets very difficult when we aren't able to hold festivals. 'cause [00:11:00] people are basically saying, oh, it's too noisy and we don't want it in our backyard.

And the festivals. Have to adhere to up 34 people over a hundred or basically 50,000 people that are coming throughout the year doing our, um, that come to our major events. So it gets, for me, it gets very difficult when I'm making decisions because I. Absolutely. We have to make certain restrictions and make sure that the noise is at, um, national policy level.

But again, being at national policy level, they're not, it's, it's still very loud for the people that are surrounding those areas. It's also very loud when you include weather factors. So if it's windy, it's gonna travel and the people in the estates are going to suffer for it. And yes, we, so we do have to make certain concessions, but I think that has now.

We've seen the whole situation with Brockwell Park and we've seen the outcry that young people had when they basically couldn't, um, they thought that their experience was gonna get taken away from them. We are basically scared that everything just keeps taking, gets get, keeps getting taken away [00:12:00] from us, and we're not having a say in how we.

Experience London, and yeah, it's the money, it's people listening to just a few voices opposed to the larger voices. And we feel like our voices are not being heard. And it's just the rules. We don't understand what is going to make everybody happy and we can't make everyone happy. So what's the balance?

What balance we basically strike in our whole situation? Well,

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: if I, if I could come in there Portia, because, um, we recognized. And as as an incoming administration, that was a problem that we had in Westminster. We began this thing called Westminster After Dark. It was a big engagement exercise to try and land a consensus between the residents, the visitors, the businesses, the police, about could we get to a consensus about what people felt was reasonable.

No one was gonna get everything they wanted. But in the West end, there's been a huge increase. The number of restaurants with Class E, a lot of shots become restaurants, streets that closed it. Uh, five, six o'clock in the evening. Now close 11 midnight way noisier, [00:13:00] uh, huge amount more, more activity. And we had a, we ran a stakeholder assembly and there was quite a lot of coming together actually about what people felt was, was f was fair and reasonable.

And we've launched a set of, we're about to launch a set of, um, policies, um, including a full review. Licensing, but also alongside, uh, planning and work with the police to try and, and take that forward. So I, I think you have to try to get to a consensus. Well, recognizing that not everyone's gonna get everything that they want, but what you can't do, I think is you were saying Porsche, you, you can't let one small group of people hold everybody else to ransom while recognizing that the small group of people might actually have a point.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Yeah. And the, I will say, sorry, before we go on to the next question, the. I, there's a difference 'cause West End, there's not a lot of residential. Like areas in where most of the fun is happening, and that's what we struggle with. So if you're in the middle of RI Park, literally it's a full residential areas, [00:14:00] young people, there's a school right next to it.

So we have to factor in all of those things when we are doing festivals and yeah, it gets, it gets very, very difficult. So I understand. Yeah, I understand. How you guys are dealing with it, but it, yeah, with us, it's, it's a very, very difficult situation. Track balance,

Yiannis Sophocleous: a case, a case though of uh, uh, these experiences are also for the residents living in the area.

So it shouldn't be against them. It's not something that they should feel imposing to them. I think even if it's a residential area, I think there is an element of this can be for the community that actually lives there and not something that, uh, they should be by default against it.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: I mean, Diego. And I was gonna say we, um, so we make about, about up to 500,000 pounds the council makes for, um, our major events.

31,000 of that goes back into replenishing our, our parks and making sure that they are the standard that they were left in. We charge 12.5%. Um, of an environmental impact fee from the organization so that we [00:15:00] can put that back into our park. So we are constantly putting the money back into the spaces that we are using.

And I think, um, it's also important to note when people are asking, when people are complaining about, um, these events taken up all of our open spaces, it's literally about what. F two weeks at most out of the entire year. And when we are talking about the use of our parks, festivals are a use of our parks.

That is how young people want to use those spaces. In the winter, we are stuck in our rooms or in our university halls or essentially like not. Able to do the things that we wanna do. So when it comes to the summer, that is how we use it. So we understand that there is other uses of parks where, you know, you've gotta make sure that the children are getting taken into account and you've gotta walk your dog and you've gotta do all of those things.

But you can do that. Every other day. It's the two weeks in the, in the, in the year that we want to use it in that way. So I think we need to expand the idea of how our open spaces are [00:16:00] being used for, for example, a public square, having an open mic now on a public square. It's also a use of that space and you are bringing other communities into, um, yeah, into that space.

And they're basically, they're having a different way of expressing it. So I think we need to be a little bit open-minded with the uses of our open spaces.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No, I agree. And I think it's more about, uh, how do you communicate this and make the community feel a part, uh, of this process. And now, Andrea, let's come to you as well.

Obviously you've been leading on origination and placemaking, uh, projects are part of places for London. And do you think that London still has this spark, uh, in its public real? It's harder to deliver these kind of experiences, uh, through placemaking.

Graeme Craig: Oh, fundamentally, London's got its challenges, but for me it's still the best city in the world.

There is nowhere else. I would rather be. I am in an enormously privileged position. I think we all are to work in London at this. Time, and I think [00:17:00] London has its critics. Most of those critics don't live in London. They don't understand the city. For me, fundamentally, the fact that anything you could want to eat, drink, experience, see is is here almost uniquely, more than anywhere on the.

Planet and you either embrace and love the fact that London is a diverse, inclusive world, city or you look to fight against it. And you know, for me, uh, yeah, like I say, there is nowhere else. I would rather be, I am clearly keen that within places for London, we do everything that we can to address those headwinds, those challenges, particularly of course, the affordable housing crisis.

Yeah, it's a, it's a brilliant city. We've got 1500 amazing tenants across our estate, 95% of whom are small businesses, and you go to things like the arches, and every one of the people in those arches has their life [00:18:00] story. They're doing something that matters deeply to them. So I feel enormously proud of.

Um, the customers, the tenants who we've got more than that, I feel proud to live and work in London.

Yiannis Sophocleous: Oh, that's, uh, yeah, yeah. The case. And I think this is what is unique about the land that everyone can recognize. And yeah, on that point, uh, how do we feel about the role of mood music? Do we think we underestimate the role of, uh, confidence in, from a landowner's perspective, a business perspective, and then deliver perspective in shaping whether Landon can deliver these fun experiences?

So.

Graeme Craig: Well, I think mood music is deeply, deeply important. It's almost the single most important thing that a government at a local London and national level can do. Uh, professor Greg Clark, he talks about London being a negotiated city, and I think that's absolutely true, but [00:19:00] the, you know, the messages about what it is that.

London stands for what it is that the UK needs London's position, you know, both in the southeast and in the UK around the world. The more that's clearer, it helps in the detailed negotiation that does go on. I've, uh, lived in London for just over 20 years. I think London has. There are challenges, yes, I accept that, but I think London has improved immeasurably over that time.

Within places for London. We've got huge amounts of investment going on across the capital. Um, what I would say about that investment is every time we do a development, it's controversial. I cannot think of one example where once something is built, anytime anyone has said No, I think you should take it back.

You might have built at Black Horse Road, 350 homes, [00:20:00] 50% affordable. There is no one who goes to that site now who says, no. I think you should get rid of all those homes. Go back to that bleak. Car park with 250 spaces at night. It's just time. And again, we put the investment in up to including something of the scale of the Elizabeth Line, and it demonstrates enormous impact, enormous benefits across.

The city, but somehow we need to continue to have to make that case again and again and again. And I think the more that within London we can talk with one voice that it's not London against the rest of the uk. It's not a zero sum game. London is a brilliant city, but like anywhere it needs investment.

Um, and you know, I am resolutely positive about this, this

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: city. Well, and it's great to hear you say that and. We need confidence and to support confidence. And that confidence brings investment. And there's plenty [00:21:00] coming in, but I am concerned about London being caught in the cross hairs of the global culture wars and the being.

People who make it their lives work to talk down London. Uh, many of them may be based in St. Petersburg working for the Russians or whatever, but um, it's having an impact. So the first thing you have to do when you meet people from around the world is say. The stuff you're seeing on your Twitter feed, that's, that's not how, it's like you can walk down the street in London and it's fine.

Everyone's getting on with their lives and having fun and shopping and going to work. So I think we need to call out the anti London rhetoric wherever it is because it is designed to undermine our city.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No, no, definitely. I think Antonia, I think that's where they work from business improvement districts and yourselves as the heart of London business line do.

In terms of how you show to the outside world on what does London mean, and, uh, essentially in the way that the landlord is being marketed.

Antonia Stratford: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I don't look after this area at Holbert, but we do a huge amount of sort of events and [00:22:00] activations to draw visitors into the area. Um, lots of sort of innovative stuff.

Our, our statues in this square trail. Um, it again, it just highlights the amazing film industry that we have in the. In the country. Um, we have our art after dark activation, um, showcasing galleries across, across the west end. Um, so yeah,

Siddo Dwyer: you'll all see that I've morphed into, uh, back, back into myself.

We'll stick, we'll stick with you, uh, on Antonia. I wonder from, um, har. Uh, of London and, and the work that you do with the bid, uh, also moved now into a kind of policy, uh, context and, uh, both locally and, and nationally. Um. What levers do you think or would give the West End experience economy a big boost?

Antonia Stratford: Are we talking nationally, regionally, locally, your anything,

Siddo Dwyer: your pick.

Antonia Stratford: Um, I think from a national perspective. I [00:23:00] mean, just to sort is, um, so we, we sort in the middle of launching a campaign around business rate reform. Mm-hmm. It's, it's one of those subjects that probably everybody sort of groans when I bring it up, but it is

Siddo Dwyer: the perennial gripe of many.

Antonia Stratford: Yeah, absolutely. But just to sort of give you an example of that, it's, they should remain nameless, but we've got a fantastic sort of, um, experience economy business in, in our patch of the west end. With the changes to the multipliers coming in next April, their, their tax bill as a whole, it's gonna go up to 2 million pounds.

Um, and this is a business that can't, you know, because of that change, they're looking to potentially look overseas for expansion. And, um, um, so I think, yeah, business rate reform, we want to, again, it's, again, this is not a, a wildly new idea, but we want to see more of a level of the playing field between the online world and the high stretch.

It shouldn't be big business versus small business. It should be. High street versus online, um, with some exemption. So that's that something I would like to see reform. Um, [00:24:00] crime and safety. Again, perception of crime and safety. We've already talked about that. And we were really, um, pleased to see the mayor commit to 80 new posts in the West end earlier in the summer.

Really happy with that, but we can't be complacent. Um, we have the unfortunate accolade of lesser square being one of the crime hotspots in London. Um, so yeah, crime and safety needs to, we can't, can't, can't rest our laurels with that. Um, again, this is not a new, uh, tax free shopping or is, um, we would love to see that reinstated and I think the latest research shows that if it was to be reinstated with, generate over 5 billion for the UK economy and I don't think that should be ignored.

And, and just, and just last as well, but so not at least is just. Arts and culture provision in the West End is at the heart of it. And, and during the pandemic, I, I hear our, our chief exec always talks about restaurants and hotels will call her up and say, one, are the theaters coming back? So we, it's absolutely the cornerstone of the West End.

Um, so we want to see that ongoing investment in our arts and culture provision, which is. At the heart of everything we do.

Siddo Dwyer: Mm-hmm. And indeed for the two politicians. [00:25:00] And while I'm not gonna ask you to preempt the budget, I'm sure the, the conversation around tax, whether it's tax-free shopping or um, business rate reform, it'll also be matched with the mission that this government has, uh, to fix parts of our public realm.

I wonder from, from both of your perspectives, um, is there anything there that you agree with and, and what more would you like to see? Um. Brought about either your respective borrowers or more nationally, um, to, um, yeah, generate a, a, a, a real sense or more vibrancy. You run on nighttime economy and parts and leisure.

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: Uh, so we would very much endorse BU ideas around business rate reform. They are a bit complicated, but schophocleous please download the paper and have a read. It, it is complicated, but yes, it's the right, it's the right way to go, and we would very much like to see tax free shopping reinstated. It was dumb, which sun it in the first place never made any sense to ax it.

If you are [00:26:00] a Londoner and you're getting married, go to Paris, buy a ring, get the VAT back, and that'll pay for your trip to Paris and a couple of nights in a hotel. Isn't it a shame that Parisians getting married won't come to London and do the same thing? It's mad. So very much, very much would support that.

If I could wave a magic wand sorting out policing in the West End, absolutely. The 18 U Cops is terrific. There's an 80 18 1 8. Person, squad, the council's putting together half police, half city inspectors to allocate to hotspots. And we've improved the CCTV coverage enormously, which will help if the police access the CCTV and, and use it to, uh, defeat crime.

And if I could add one thing on my list for the, for the police, um, when. The Blue Note Jazz Cafe came to the licensing committee to get a late night late light license for their new premises on uh St. Martin's Lane. The mayor sent his 24 17 to argue for a late license, and the police [00:27:00] sent a barrister to argue against.

Mm. A license. So, um, isn't

Siddo Dwyer: uncommon across London.

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: I know. So, so, you know, um, it's really difficult for counselors to set on licensing committees. Mm-hmm. When the police turn up with a barrister and say, you should refuse this. Obviously we don't always follow the advice from the police, but that would be one thing.

Wave a magic wand I would resolve.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: For me it would be planning policy, so. Trying. We need to work with, um, developers to help us build our culture in our boroughs because it's very difficult. We don't have, I mean, we know all the pressures that we're having on the HRA, we know the pressures that we're going to be having because of the fair funding review on our budgets in, um, 2026 and beyond.

So I think that we need the help of developers to help us build our public realm. Um, and we are doing that. We are trying to do our best with that, with our new town center in Canada Water. So, um, which I visited

Siddo Dwyer: last week. Absolutely stunning, by the way. Yes. The work that, that, uh, Southern British land, [00:28:00] so to cut across you.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Yeah, no. So we've done that with our, um, so we've been able to, um, have a new gym. So we've. We opened up Canada Leisure Center,

Siddo Dwyer: one 50 strengths training stations for anyone interested.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Yep. Free from Friday to Sunday. So we are, and we are able to give that as a local authority because they were able to, britishland was able to help us, um, build that.

But we, um, have this old, I don't know if anyone knows about it, print works. So it's like a club space, event space. So. We would very much as a council and as residents love to keep that space. But we need to be working with the, with the, um, landowners to make sure that they're able to bring that. So for me, putting something into planning policy that makes sure wherever we're going to be building our new cities, we're gonna be building our new places that, um, galleries are there, community spaces where people can, um, um, do cultural events.

Making sure that we're able to, you know, open new clubs, open new, um. Yeah. New art spaces, celebrating the culture we need, we need that help. 'cause we are gonna be having a very hard [00:29:00] time doing that without, with our budgets at the moment.

Siddo Dwyer: That's quite a positive signal, uh, that Porsche and, uh, Jeff has sent their, uh, gray.

And I wonder from a, um, regeneration and placemaking, uh, uh, perspective, particularly around stations mm-hmm. Um, what, what policy leavers would you like to see pulled, um, to, uh, to make your job perhaps that bit easier?

Graeme Craig: Um, I guess the first thing to say is a statement of the obvious is that London isn't one homogeneous place.

It's a whole variety of villages and towns and cities, and I think government recognizing that London has. Amazingly Bright lights, but also some of the most challenging, most deprived parts of the country, not dealing with London as a single place. I think ultimately London was built on the back of the transport network, and of course I'm going to say.

That, that relationship between transport and development, transport, [00:30:00] unlocking development and development funding, the transport network. It's a hundred years since Metroland. But again, that just feels like it's a lesson that we need to continue to have to learn. Um, I've spoken already about government's importance in terms of mood, music.

The other thing I would see is the. Convening power of government, government bringing people together. We've got a strategic relationship with Network Rail, uh, now under the badge of Plat platform four, as their mechanism to bring forward development growth on network rail land across London. So across the city we are combining our land interests with network rail.

It would be great to see other. Public bodies bringing their land, uh, forward. I think there's huge benefits that can come in terms of housing, of course, affordable housing, workspace, affordable workspace, but also the culture, [00:31:00] the entertainment, the public space. I think forcing us all to think about every square foot that we own and not expecting.

Public bodies to solve those problems by themselves. But the convening power of government coming together to say, how can we work together? Uh, I think doing that at scale is, you know, there is, for me, enormous potential for us to continue to take this city forward. Particularly, of course, the land that's around stations, but above all, really it's the land that's in London.

Town centers on, on those high streets thinking about how we can unlock the investment that undoubtedly wants to be made. If we can make it as easy as possible for, um, individuals across the UK or beyond to make the investment in this great city.

Siddo Dwyer: I mean, it was, uh, reported that in May. Fewer than, I think it was 25, uh, new build properties had been sold.

Um, and [00:32:00] then about 19 or so, uh, uh, private properties had changed hands then. So there is a real affordability crisis in the city, particularly around housing. And I'll come to the, our politicians will also, um, open up to the, to the panel. What levers do you realistically have? And I know you touched on working with developers more closely, um, Porsche, um, to make London more attractive, uh, to particularly younger families that are leaving the city in droves.

Um, and, and are, and are really struggling to, to, to make a, a, a life for themselves, uh, other than for those that are already there. Um, big question, but I, I wonder.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Uh, I mean to answer that simply is just convenience. Um. Having a school nearby you, having a fantastic playground near you, if we're talking about young families, um, having affordable spaces that you can go to.

So cafes, [00:33:00] um, shopping centers, and we were just, you guys were just talking about, um, making sure that we, basically making sure that we have a balance between high streets and online shopping. I think the problem that we have in like Southern and Lambeth and yeah, Lewisham. On our higher streets, we don't have big businesses, so that's the reason why we have to rely on the online shopping because again.

Traveling to the West End, which we used to do back in the day quite a lot, and we don't do anymore because of COVID. And now we found out the convenience of online stores. It would be great to see like a h and m on Wallworth Road. So having businesses like that, that are close to you, that you are able to go to, I think will attract people to, to come to those spaces.

So yeah, I think it's, it's the convenience of, of everything, education and again. Safety, making sure that our children are able to go from point A to point B in a very safe manner. So yeah, I think that's what we could do.

Siddo Dwyer: I mean, Graham, Graham made a, uh, really good point around the convening power of local authorities and, and, and.

Um, public bodies to, to really bring a lot of [00:34:00] those, um, entities to the table, particularly if they, if they feel like it, it's worth setting up Shop, of course, Westminster's home to lots of major brands that have, have found themselves on, um, many popular high streets or the, the nation's. High Street, Oxford, Oxford Street.

Uh, what, what, say you, uh, Jeff, how, how do we make the city more attractive to younger families? Well,

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: it's a very good question because we are seeing fewer and fewer children. In Central London, and as a result, we're finding schools are getting smaller and smaller and often having to close, and I think that's a shame.

I think Central London should be for everybody. It's a great place to live. Should be a great place to raise a family too. We don't really know why. We've all got theories. But I, I challenged Tony Travis on this and he didn't know, and I said, why don't you put some research students on it? And I've asked our economist at City Hall to take a look to advise our new city plan, which we're kicking off the work on right now.

Because I'd like our city plan to have an objective to get more [00:35:00] children in Westminster. And I don't think it's about building more three bedroom flats because. We've got, we have as many three bedroom flats now as we had 10 years ago. It just, we've got fewer children, so we need to know why they've, why they've gone, why parents have moved out, why people aren't having children maybe now.

So there isn't affordability. Crisis across the board. Uh, there is clearly now a affordability crisis from property developers too. Mm, mm-hmm. Because we are seeing very few applications for new residential buildings in, in central London. Demand for commercial is much better because the rent per square meter of commercial properties going up and up and up, particularly for high quality new space.

So you can see a business case to build an office blog. What it doesn't seem to be is a business case to build. A new residential block, unless you're building on public land with public money. And as a council, we are doing that. Uh, we've got two big regeneration sites that are going, but we've kind [00:36:00] of maxed out.

The, our ability to develop at speed, that's our pipeline is roughly, um, roughly what it is and the price of building everything. My goodness. I mean, it costs us 8, 9, 8 or 9,000 pounds to build a new two bedroom council flat. So you can see why the affordability crisis is there. So the last two workshops I've been in today.

Um, you know, meetings with the industry have been, well, how, what can we do? What levers can we pull to try to make it a little bit cheaper to build residential property in central London? What can we do to take a bit of the bureaucracy out of it and speed things up and at least try and de-risk the investment because we, you know, we're all aware that the capital behind.

A lot of these schemes, uh, comes from, from Europe or around the world. And, uh, if investments in London look like, oh, you know, it, it might take an extra year 'cause of the building safety regulator, uh, you know, people behind them might go, well, okay, well you, we'll put the money in Madrid or Amsterdam instead.

So, [00:37:00] so a recognition, I think now in government, regional government, national government, that this needs to be addressed. And maybe those hats. Build, baby build or in indicator of the, the penny dropping

Siddo Dwyer: you. You know, I've just, uh, as I said, I think there's an astonishing stat from the land registry of sort of you coming forward.

And indeed, the point around the affordability crisis for developers is one that's not often spoken about. The cost of borrowing is, is going through the roof. Viability is no longer just the buzzword that you hear at planning is it's, it's something that often many of, uh, my clients, I'm sure will Yani come forward.

Um, just before we bring you in, uh, Paul over to, uh, Graham and uh, and to Antonio, um, from both your per perspectives, whether it's the experience economy or the public realm and the confidence that builders need for investment, um. How we link in housing delivery to, uh, to those challenges. And, uh, how can we make, um, tangible community benefits like [00:38:00] parks, use cases, and affordable transport.

Um. Make London more attractive?

Graeme Craig: Yeah, certainly. I mean, from my point of view, it is important that we remember at all times it's about building communities. It's about giving people a roof over the head, giving them a front door key. It's changing someone's life chances it's. Building communities that are successful with the amenities, including the public space, that makes a difference.

It's, it's not a, it's not a numbers game. Yes, the numbers are important, but it's fundamentally about building places that work rather than completing the roles on a spread sheet. And I think, you know, for me, we've got, uh. We've got fantastic schemes that we're desperate to come forward. We have had issues, um, as indeed have others, uh, with the building safety regulator, meaning it's taking much, much longer than we want to bring sites forward.

[00:39:00] I am confident that under the leadership of Andy o, the building safety regulator understands what needs to be done. Again, I'm hearing only positive things in terms of this week about the changes that are going to be. Made. There isn't only one issue. There isn't just one solution, but I, I remain steadfastly confident.

I know what it is that we're working on. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of homes that we are keen to bring forward. I can see the root for that happening increasingly, again, that's on the back of the relationships that we've got with the boroughs across London with Network Rail and other public authorities.

I think the industry has been set. Um, very high standards. There's a whole number of things that are in the way in terms of what needs to be done, but I think, you know, under the, uh, under the clear vision of Build Baby [00:40:00] Build, I am confident that we're gonna see numbers increasingly in the months ahead.

There are trans transformed from where we have been.

Siddo Dwyer: Mm. Antonio. There, there, there's lots of, uh, positive signals, um, coming out, but how do we make sure that, um, those elements of, uh, community aren't just nice to haves, but um, can really boost the, the attractiveness We bring Porsche before, uh, soft with Yani,

Antonia Stratford: of course.

I mean, um. I think it's, again, sort of goes without saying that a rich, it's some rich in culture, rich cultural and leisure offer is just not a nice to have. It serves a number of very hard economic, um, principles. So London makes London more appealing to skilled workers as a massive magnet for entrepreneurs for investment.

I think when you look after the public realm, we have high quality streets, squares, green spaces. Shows that the city has confidence, confidence in itself, that's investing in itself. Um, you know, a diversified economy with strong cultural and experiential dimensions is less, less vulnerable to shocks as well, giving investors [00:41:00] confidence and returns, um, and, and a strong visitor economy as well.

So economically, uh, dynamic for, for investors and, and. Reinforces London's global identity. So all these things together are not just sort of a luxury, luxury or a nice to have, they make hard economic sense. Mm-hmm.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Yeah. I was, I'm gonna speak to the point, um, about why a lot of people aren't living in Westminster.

Why we don't have a lot of children in that area, and it's. Partly because of green spaces and also partly because of the experiences that people have had outside of the uk. So you can see in places like America, in places like, um, in like south of France or like Geneva, there's in their, their, their houses are much bigger.

So you've got bigger living rooms. You've got a place where you can have a garden. You've got a place where, um, the air quality's better. There's cleaner rare, the, the streets people are cycling. So you're much more fitter. People are moving outside of London, not just because of the affordability aspect of it, but because they [00:42:00] just want more space and they want more space to breathe and they want to use their money.

Um, they want to use their money well, and the best way to use that is to buy a bigger house as opposed to staying in a three bedroom flat where there isn't a green space. And the park is like. You have to take a bus to go to the park and to the playground. So I think that's, that's the reason why we are actually, even in Suffolk, we are losing that as well.

So, and people are moving outside of London for that.

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: So would you say there's any way of getting them back or, or, or getting younger people today to have children to stay

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: Well, getting younger people to have children or,

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: well, it'll be a start.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: That would be a, yeah, that would be a, a start. And it speaks to your point about experiences.

We are, we need to actually know how important it is to have things like festivals, having, um, a longer, longer opening times for bars, having cheaper drinks, having cheaper food, because that is where people go to meet the lives of their lives. That is where people to go make friends where people, that's

Graeme Craig: a really, really good point.

Yeah.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: That is, and that's where people go to [00:43:00] network and find job opportunities. When we are not investing in these spaces and we're not investing and don't actually understand how important to ha, how important it's to have these experiences. We, that is the reason why we're having these problems. So I'm not, we are not having any children because we're not having any experiences.

We're not meeting people. We're staying more in line than anything, and losing that social aspect of what it means to be a human. So if you want to get people to start falling in love again, let's have more festivals than let's have longer hours in our clubs. So,

Antonia Stratford: can I just just jump, jump in one point when we, when I had younger children, we moved outta London for all the reasons you talk about.

Now they're. In their early, perhaps to be in their early twenties and teenagers, they are desperate to be in London. We absolutely, the festivals, the events, the bars, they don't wanna be our stuck out on the countryside. So it's, you know, you go, they come back. They come back. Eventually they come. Yeah. Yeah.

It is

Siddo Dwyer: indeed a mixed picture and, uh. Yeah, actually I hadn't thought of it that way, unfortunately. So I think that's certainly some something to, to reflect on.

Yiannis Sophocleous: And yeah. [00:44:00] And as we're now, uh, wrapping this up, I'm back to the microphone to end it on a more positive note. Uh, so it's a question for all of you really, uh, following this very interesting discussion.

Fast forward 10 years and what does a fun, fair, and, uh, affordable London look like, uh, for you? Starting from you? Yeah.

Graeme Craig: Um, well, for what it's worth, I'm resolutely optimistic about London. Um, London is, and I think will remain the preeminent world city. I would hope that we can get through the current noise and get a recognition about all the, yeah, the fact that the, the diversity, the inclusion, the vibrancy of London is something of which we should be.

Proud. Um, I hope that we can get to a point where London is seen as being, uh, you know, a core element. The engine for growth [00:45:00] in the uk. It's not something that somehow in some zero sum game, it's seen as being it's London against the rest of the uk. Ultimately, investment in London benefits the whole. The, the whole of the country.

Um, I think, again, I'm aware of what we are doing. I'm aware of what it is that is planned. I am hugely, hugely excited about what's coming down the tracks. London's got a hell of a lot better in the. 20 years in which I've lived here, I am confident that building communities, building communities that reflect the diversity of London's villages and towns and cities that Yes, have the public space, the cultural space, the communities that's more than just homes.

Yeah, I am confident that London will be a better place in the future. Um, and I think [00:46:00] that can only be achieved by us working together ever more closely.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No, definitely, and I think this, this is the message that needs to be clear that a better London can make the whole country better and can support, uh, growth, uh, in the wider country essentially.

And Antonio, from your perspective, from a heart of London perspective, how do you view this, uh, fun, fair and affordable London from a more West End

Antonia Stratford: approach? Um, so what. I suppose our vision, we, we'd like to see wouldn't, people don't need a high income to enjoy the culture, live securely, participate fully.

And actually one policy leave I haven't talked about, and I'm gonna get shot if I don't mention it now, is that obviously all the, the ideas we talked about today are fantastic but do have to be supported by that policy framework. And one idea we have to support a fun, fair and affordable London is to set, is to see the international center designation that currently exists in the West End.

But we wanna see that evolved. So it includes. [00:47:00] Um, Jeff's gonna kill me now for saying it's the West end in its entirety. We dec disagree a little bit on that, but to have, um, policies, um, very tailored to the West end to support the iconic fun for, you know, destination that it is. Um, so I think yeah, the policy framework needs to change and we can, if we start off with that designation, that recognition, and then build upon that.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No. Exactly. And, uh, Jeff Porsche, from your perspective as, uh, obviously you are in, uh, you're in government, uh, in your local council, so how do you, uh, view this, uh, uh, vision for land essentially and your areas?

Cllr Geoff Barraclough: Well, one of the, going back to one of my earlier points, one of the reasons why. The, uh, the global right is so angry about London is because we are a hugely diverse and hugely successful city where people come from all over the world.

They live their lives, they get educated, they fall in love, they make friends, they have children, they have careers, and, and they make money and they pay a huge amount of [00:48:00] tax that funds lots of things all over the uk. So we don't wanna lose that. I don't think we will lose that because being a Londoner is something a little bit special, and we are all.

London, it doesn't matter where you, where you began. And where you end up, we end up here with Londoners and it remains the best city in the world.

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: I absolutely agree. Um, we've spoken a lot about policy and making sure we're the government is convening bodies and the local government is convening bodies.

We can't create policy without people. Um, I have always tried my best to tell our local communities, our young people, our children, um, and even our. Our, um, older senior citizens to come to our consultations. And I think, um, the best way that we can fulfill our vision is to get these people in the rooms.

And we need to, we need to emphasize how important it's for, um, people between the ages of 35 and 40. No, well, [00:49:00] 25 to 40 actually to get into these rooms and advocate for themselves. So when it, an example of it is when you are, um, when we are doing our festivals, you have to have a public consultation and you have to have the.

In-person consultation. You only ever see friends of there. You only ever see the people that live around the square mile of where that specific park is. And what I'm trying to push our communities to do, especially our diverse communities, they need to get into those rooms and answer the questions. That are being asked about what does this space mean to you?

What, why are we having this festival in the first place? What is it going to give to our local community? How is it going to contribute to our green spaces? Where is the money going and how are we going to contribute from that? Um, and also talk about talking about ticket prices, talking about what are um, things, what, what are the major events going to do for us in terms of our communities?

Can you have a community event so that people that can't afford to come to that, can you make something that is free for the rest of the people? So. We need to get people into these rooms as much as we need to create [00:50:00] the policy, but it can't be created without them. So we need to make sure that they are telling us exactly how that needs to be done.

Yiannis Sophocleous: I agree. I think it's exactly that. We want young people to be interested. We want young people to be involved and shape their futures and yeah, on the point, Jeff, Pia, you also mentioned, I mean, I moved in this country 11 years ago as a young student, and I think London has a great. Pool and this diversity is something that should be celebrated.

I don't think we should forget how great London is, just because there is a narrative at the moment that is trying to push it, uh, the other way. And yeah. Before we wrap up, uh, if there was a message from this panel for everyone, government, developers, landowners, uh, what would that be? Starting from you, Portia and Jeff?

Cllr Portia Mwangangye: My my point just goes back to planning. We need to make sure that our partners are helping us deliver for our residents, so that, that would be my, that would be my, my outcry. We all need to work together to build stronger, fairer and funer communities. Yeah,

Graeme Craig: I wouldn't [00:51:00] argue with that. Thank you Graham. Um, above all my message, building homes.

Building communities is an investment. See it as an investment. See it as, uh, fundamentally delivering the future of London. That's so critical to the future of the rest of the uk.

Yiannis Sophocleous: And Antonia.

Antonia Stratford: I'd say my main sort of last message, really like the West End, it remains competitive because businesses and cultural institutions work, work hand in hand to deliver experiences, animate public spaces, and sustain London's global reputation.

Yiannis Sophocleous: No, exactly. And I think that sums up the conversation really nicely in the sense that this is what we want from London to celebrate its diversity. At the same time, invest together. In placemaking and really making it an exciting place for people who live here now, but also for the, uh, future generations.

I would really like to thank you now, uh, from myself and my colleague Sidu, for joining us here today. It has been a great conversation. Really looking [00:52:00] forward to actually listening, uh, to the episode, and they are really appreciate for your time and enjoy the, uh, last few days in, uh, Liverpool now that, uh, remain for the conference.

Really. Thank you. Thank you. So having us.

Graeme Craig: Thank

Siddo Dwyer: you. Thank you. That was quite an episode. Yeah, it was

Yiannis Sophocleous: really interesting. I think Noah, some very good insight from both Porsche and Jeff and also to see the perspective from business

Siddo Dwyer: well respect and I think having such a good mix really shows the opportunity when all these guys really come together and can work together to, um.

Oh yeah, make London fun again. I mean, it's a bit of a misnomer. We know that London is a great city, uh, and it, and it is somewhere that we, we both live in and we both enjoy and to, um, uh, my family came and made London their home. But I think, um, it's certainly food for thought.

Yiannis Sophocleous: Exactly, and I think it's more about, uh, we need to remind ourselves and everyone how great London is because sometimes we forget and that's what came through this conversation.

I think for us as concilio, it's maybe [00:53:00] for things to come these panel discussions for better places, I think. So how exciting they can be.

Siddo Dwyer: Yeah. I think having that broad spectrum of, um, of, of people and also us do morphing into one another, I think is a, yeah. That's a great, that's a great thing. One thing I, I should say though is we need to.

Uh, guys here at for podcast studios 'cause um, they're bed with us with, with such a, um, intense panel, but the studio's quite nice story.

Yiannis Sophocleous: Exactly. And lots of requests and yeah, really appreciate the help and hopefully we can use them again. Yeah. Perfect. Thank you. Thanks everyone. Bye.