1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,840 Caitlin Van Mol: Hey, everyone, just want to quickly announce up 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:08,640 top that I have a new Patreon page. What's a Patreon page? You 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,940 ask? It's a place where you can sign up and select a 4 00:00:11,940 --> 00:00:16,260 subscription tier and get access to ad free episodes, extended 5 00:00:16,260 --> 00:00:21,980 video content, community chat and bonus episodes. So go 6 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:22,640 subscribe@patreon.com 7 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,620 slash, live to tell, and you'll get immediate access to content 8 00:00:27,620 --> 00:00:29,240 over there. That's patreon.com/live 9 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,700 to tell. The link is in the show notes, and here's the episode. 10 00:00:35,420 --> 00:00:39,740 Just kidding. It's a disclaimer first. Hey, everyone. Just want 11 00:00:39,740 --> 00:00:44,140 to pop in and say that my guest for today's episode, Paul has a 12 00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:47,260 book that we reference throughout the interview. It's 13 00:00:47,260 --> 00:00:51,280 called friendly fire, a fractured memoir. I will link to 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,060 it in the show notes. Also, the names of Paul's two college 15 00:00:55,060 --> 00:01:00,540 roommates, Mark and Keith, have been changed. Also, Paul doesn't 16 00:01:00,540 --> 00:01:04,500 mention the name of his college in his book, so I'm going to 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:11,160 respect that in this episode, I was sort of part of this crew, 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:18,120 this trifecta of US college kids. We were probably like most 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,620 college kids. We liked to play video games. We liked each 20 00:01:21,620 --> 00:01:25,640 other's company. We liked humor, stand up comedy, you know, I was 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,840 a happy go lucky musician trying to, you know, become a writer in 22 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:34,220 undergrad. So once we moved out of like, the freshman dorms, 23 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:38,780 Mark had some credits from high school, so he was eligible to 24 00:01:38,780 --> 00:01:43,000 have basically an on campus apartment, and so we lived there 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,140 for the remaining three years of university. And it was, you 26 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:50,080 know, a very spacious, four bedroom apartment we owed a kind 27 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,020 of a rotating fourth member by 2017 28 00:01:54,220 --> 00:01:58,360 they were all in their junior year at a small private college 29 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,540 in Minnesota. You had obviously known Mark for four years, and 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,460 what did you know about his relationship with guns? Yeah, I 31 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:12,060 mean, to me, it was never really something we talked about. It 32 00:02:12,060 --> 00:02:14,220 was sort of on the periphery. He 33 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,440 Paul: didn't hunt or anything. I think maybe his family did, but 34 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,940 I knew that he liked to go to ranges. It has never really came 35 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:27,680 up too seriously. And me and Keith, you know, the other 36 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,400 roommate, him and I were both very, you know, postmodern 37 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,100 hippie. You know, him and I are very, we don't have any interest 38 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:37,400 in that. In senior year, I kind of knew he owned some and we had 39 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,860 friends who had houses off campus, and I just kind of 40 00:02:39,860 --> 00:02:43,900 assumed they were stored in those types of places. Friday, 41 00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:45,040 April 7, 2017 42 00:02:46,300 --> 00:02:49,300 Caitlin Van Mol: Paul and Mark were in their apartment wrapping 43 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:50,200 up their weeks. 44 00:02:51,220 --> 00:02:52,120 Paul: It was Friday. 45 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,040 It was in the evening, well after school, maybe like 530 46 00:02:57,340 --> 00:03:01,680 ish, I'm sort of wrapping up some homework. And so the plan 47 00:03:01,740 --> 00:03:06,240 was we were gonna go out to, like a local Gastro Pub and, you 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,600 know, drink a few paps blue ribbons, and get a burger. And 49 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,380 so Mark goes to his room to sort of prepare for that, basically, 50 00:03:13,380 --> 00:03:16,080 take a nap or something. And I'm just gonna, you know, 51 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,260 diddle on this paper a little more. And 52 00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:24,140 I realized that I needed a book to sort of cite something. So I 53 00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:29,060 got up, and then I stopped, and I think I noticed, like a guitar 54 00:03:29,060 --> 00:03:31,520 pick or a battery on the ground. And so I'm like, oh, you know 55 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,780 Mark having the darn apartment dirty again. So I stopped and 56 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:40,840 turned and picked it up. And in that moment, I was blasted back 57 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,780 and forced into, like, this cluster of wooden dining room 58 00:03:43,780 --> 00:03:46,960 chairs we had in the living room. I'm like, Oh, shoot. You 59 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,740 know, there's like a hurricane, or like a earthquake in 60 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:53,380 Minnesota, you know, like, my first thought was just like 61 00:03:53,380 --> 00:03:56,320 natural disaster, or, like, you know, bombing, you know, there a 62 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,600 new nuclear bomb went off. Mark comes out of his room, and he's 63 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:05,220 got a gun, his hands over his mouth a cast. 64 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:11,040 Caitlin Van Mol: This is live to tell the podcast where I talk to 65 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,700 some of the bravest people who have been through the most 66 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:20,180 horrifying things and lived to tell the tale. I'm Caitlin van 67 00:04:20,180 --> 00:04:20,540 mol 68 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:28,100 Paul had no idea what just happened. Then he comes running 69 00:04:28,100 --> 00:04:29,960 over to me and and I 70 00:04:30,980 --> 00:04:34,460 Paul: don't think I totally like put it together yet, but I'm 71 00:04:34,460 --> 00:04:39,020 very much already in that state where, like, my psyche has been 72 00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:40,340 completely fractured, 73 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,560 like only a bits and pieces of me were in that moment, and 74 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,800 like, parts of me were essentially like, hovering above 75 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,580 it. You know, it was very bizarre. I think shock is like a 76 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:55,540 complete understatement. By that point, I'm basically like, okay, 77 00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:59,080 something is like, obviously wrong, and I feel like liquid on 78 00:04:59,080 --> 00:04:59,680 my head. I. 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,800 And so I'm like, Oh, I'm sweating or something, who 80 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,180 knows. But I'm completely like, you know, it's like, someone 81 00:05:06,180 --> 00:05:08,640 hit, like, the reset button, and I'm like, booting up, you know? 82 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,220 And none of my limbs are really working. I'm kind of dragging 83 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:13,920 myself to the bathroom mirror because I'm like, Okay, I just 84 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,120 need to see what happened, you know? 85 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,080 And he's giving me orders and things like that, but I'm not 86 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,040 really listening to him at this point. So I look in the mirror, 87 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,440 and sure enough, like, There's blood on my forehead. And I 88 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,620 basically had really long hair at the time, so I, like, parted 89 00:05:27,620 --> 00:05:30,620 my bangs to the side, expecting to see a hole, you know. Because 90 00:05:30,620 --> 00:05:33,860 at this point, I'm like, okay, he's he's holding a gun. He shot 91 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:38,360 me, you know. And there's no hole, you know, in my forehead. 92 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,100 So I'm like, okay, that's, you know, step one. I'm not gonna 93 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:45,520 just like, die in the next 30 seconds. So I lean over a little 94 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,900 bit. I kind of tilting my head here and there I see this, like, 95 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,120 I don't know, two inch depth hole in the top of my head. And 96 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,560 so what happened was, I was, I was leaning over, and the bullet 97 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,820 that he fired went through his wall, my my roommate, Keith's 98 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:06,300 wall, and then hit me in the top of the head. And so in theory, 99 00:06:06,300 --> 00:06:10,500 that should have went straight through, you know, out my chin, 100 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:13,440 essentially, you know, and killed me. And so what happened 101 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,520 was it basically fractured my skull inward. And so shards of 102 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,920 bone went into my brain, and then the bullet itself 103 00:06:19,980 --> 00:06:24,260 ricocheted out and then, like, was on the carpet, which then he 104 00:06:24,260 --> 00:06:24,800 later 105 00:06:25,940 --> 00:06:30,680 Unknown: threw in the garbage, marked him upon finding it. What 106 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,560 kind of gun was it? It was a Smith and Wesson nine 107 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,100 millimeter. So at this point he's basically like, oh, you 108 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:40,720 know, lay down. He pulls out like a first aid kit for when he 109 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,900 was, like, solo hiking in California, you know, always 110 00:06:43,900 --> 00:06:47,620 prepared his any he's just kind of pats me with some, you know, 111 00:06:47,620 --> 00:06:49,480 some gauze and what have you. And he's like, You should 112 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,820 probably shower. And I later found out that that's like, the 113 00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:54,220 last thing I should have done, but I sure enough, I did at the 114 00:06:54,220 --> 00:07:00,180 time, Paul was so out of it, he just did what he was told. And 115 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:03,960 then during that shower, he's hiding these excess amounts of 116 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,260 guns that we later found out about through the police and 117 00:07:07,260 --> 00:07:12,180 reports of police photography. You know, a hunting 22 rifle, 118 00:07:12,540 --> 00:07:17,040 another handgun, I think, a Glock, an AR 15, which I 119 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,840 famously taught mark how to play guitar when I had known him 120 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,600 through those four years. And so he put the AR 15 in the guitar 121 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,720 case, and then, of course, all the, all the paraphernalia, the 122 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,320 bits and bobs that come with it, that I don't know what they are, 123 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,920 but, you know, all the ammo and things like that. So he's doing 124 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,300 this, and I'm kind of showering, then I go lay back in bed, and 125 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:40,960 then stuff really starts to hurt, you know, like these 126 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,640 really strange bone pangs and, like, heat pangs and things like 127 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,900 that. And, you know, I can, I can see bits of my skull and all 128 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:50,920 this crazy stuff. 129 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,640 And, you know, and the police photography is very gruesome at 130 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,700 this point, because there's like, bloody hand prints leading 131 00:07:57,700 --> 00:08:00,220 to the bathroom mirror and in my bedroom and on the sheets, 132 00:08:00,220 --> 00:08:03,540 there's just, you know, kind of a creepy amount of blood, 133 00:08:03,540 --> 00:08:06,660 knowing where it was coming from, you know, yeah. So then I 134 00:08:06,660 --> 00:08:08,460 kind of drift into a 135 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,440 some sort of state where I'm not again. I'm not even necessarily 136 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:14,880 super conscious at this point. 137 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:18,240 Caitlin Van Mol: Then there was a knock at the apartment door. 138 00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:23,240 Unknown: It was a public safety officer, because the bull that 139 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:24,560 tripped the fire alarm, 140 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,880 Paul: he shot through the wall that had the fire the fire alarm 141 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,360 attached to it. But I'm in my room. He's back. He hid all his 142 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:37,280 guns. He shut my door in public safety stands in our doorway to 143 00:08:37,340 --> 00:08:40,180 the whole apartment. It's like kind of half kitchen, half 144 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,620 living room area. So it's this woman says, you know, oh, your 145 00:08:44,620 --> 00:08:47,860 fire alarms going off, you know, why? And Mark kind of just goes, 146 00:08:47,860 --> 00:08:50,980 Oh, I was smoking an e cig, you know, he's sort of trying to lie 147 00:08:50,980 --> 00:08:54,160 his way out of this. And she goes, I smell something burnt, 148 00:08:54,220 --> 00:08:57,700 you know, that's assumingly, that's like the gunpowder, or, 149 00:08:57,700 --> 00:08:59,680 you know, something like that. And he goes, Yeah, burnt a 150 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:02,880 pizza. And she goes, Oh, there's blood everywhere. Oh, my 151 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:04,140 roommate had a bloody nose. 152 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:11,340 I've had bloody noses before. It isn't like cool. How much blood 153 00:09:11,340 --> 00:09:17,880 was there visible to her? There was a pretty odd shaped like 154 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,260 wisp of blood on the linoleum that she that was what she 155 00:09:21,260 --> 00:09:24,080 pointed out. To my knowledge, you didn't see this stuff on the 156 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,260 walls, I don't think, because I don't think she just looked 157 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:30,860 around very much like she obviously missed the hole, the 158 00:09:30,860 --> 00:09:31,700 hole in the wall 159 00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:37,280 in our living room. But yeah, so the wisp that was there very 160 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,420 much could have been a nose, absolutely okay. And then the 161 00:09:40,420 --> 00:09:43,720 one that kind of baffles me is that she actually saw the 162 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:49,240 holster of his Smith and musson on the love seat. And she goes, 163 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,240 Well, what's the deal with that? You know? And he goes, Oh yeah, 164 00:09:52,660 --> 00:09:55,840 the gun's off campus, like it's in my car, and like my car is at 165 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,380 a buddy's place. And she just kind of says, Okay. And 166 00:09:59,380 --> 00:09:59,920 basically. 167 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,960 Leaves the room at that point. But like, you know, there the 168 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,960 accumulation of things I think probably should have had her 169 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,780 explore more. I don't know if it was like as because there's 170 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:12,240 obviously like, there are student public safety officers 171 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,600 and then there are like, outside public safety officers. I never 172 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,240 got confirmation if she was maybe just like a student one. 173 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:23,600 And if that was the case, then I obviously my empathy would would 174 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,000 kick in there and be like, maybe she just didn't know how to 175 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,640 handle the situation if she was sort of starting to piece things 176 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,780 together. Yeah, I think it's hard to police your peers at 177 00:10:32,780 --> 00:10:38,000 that age, especially 100% it's so strange. So the public safety 178 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,120 officer left, and at this point, Mark does make a phone call for 179 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,700 help, but not 911. 180 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,480 Mark called My roommate, Keith, and 181 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:54,280 him and his girlfriend then were summoned to the apartment under 182 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,460 the pretense that he said, You know, I just shot Paul. So they 183 00:10:57,460 --> 00:11:00,600 get in, and I hear them enter the room, and they're basically, 184 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,680 you know, questioning him, kind of freaking out, flustered, and 185 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,460 I make my way to their voices, sort of one step at a time, and 186 00:11:08,460 --> 00:11:11,760 they're like, stunned to see me, like walking around. Obviously, 187 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,540 I probably look, you know, like a psychopath. 188 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,680 And this is basically where there was all this time devoted 189 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:26,300 to convincing mark to call and sort of own this. And his first 190 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:31,040 instinct was to say, let's go to the hardware store and, like, 191 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,700 patch the holes, you know, and paint over them, and then, like, 192 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:38,120 in between, sort of saying, let's do that, he was sort of 193 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,160 saying, like, Oh, I'm gonna be scrubbing toilets for the rest 194 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,100 of my life. Like he kind of had this inclination that he was, 195 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:49,000 like, going to get in like, deep, deep trouble. I'm assuming 196 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,060 that meant he thought he was, like, going to jail. And then 197 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,480 meanwhile, I'm like, Oh, I have a haircut tomorrow, and like, 198 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,780 maybe she can just, like, cut around the hole I, you know, I'm 199 00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:03,840 not there mentally at all, though I'm beginning to like 200 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:08,280 realize these big truths, like this is the last time we're all 201 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,340 gonna see each other again. Like things like that were starting 202 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:15,420 to sort of come into focus. So that was a very uncanny moment, 203 00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:20,160 very surreal moment, while Paul realized their relationships 204 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,160 would all be changed forever. It was just starting to sink in how 205 00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:29,840 injured he actually was. I was like, it was very weird, because 206 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:30,920 I thought I was going to die, 207 00:12:32,060 --> 00:12:38,180 obviously. And I was like, Well, I'd rather that happen than me 208 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:42,700 be half of like myself, you know? I mean, like, it's a weird 209 00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:46,900 thing I have where I'm like, Well, if something gets, like, 210 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:51,280 mildly scuffed, I'll just get a new one that was running. Like, 211 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,580 that was a thought, for sure. Yeah, I'm you can't really do 212 00:12:54,580 --> 00:12:56,740 that with your life, yeah, I know. And that and so, like, 213 00:12:56,740 --> 00:13:00,040 that was just where I was at. My Psyche was, like, totally 214 00:13:01,060 --> 00:13:04,920 not a human person thinking it was very much someone who just 215 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,840 had, like, severe trauma, not even like emotional trauma, like 216 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,080 brain trauma. It was like someone hit restart, but then, 217 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,020 like, also put it in a blender, you know, and shook everything 218 00:13:16,020 --> 00:13:20,580 up. Yeah. Did you ever think to call 911 219 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,960 that like didn't even really cross my mind. I was again so 220 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:27,320 the like 221 00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:31,940 I felt like such a bystander, watching them interact with each 222 00:13:31,940 --> 00:13:36,920 other and such like part of me was like, ethereally above 223 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:37,700 myself, 224 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:44,440 and that bystander mode, like, prevented me from basically 225 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,520 thinking I could interact with them in any significant way, 226 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,840 like I legitimately felt like I wasn't there. And then Keith's 227 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,740 girlfriend, she she goes into Keith's room and notices the 228 00:13:56,740 --> 00:13:59,800 bullet holes, and, you know, really starts to sob. You can 229 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,240 hear her, you know, with the her that she shuts the door and kind 230 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,420 of takes a minute to sort of take all that in, and then Keith 231 00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:07,500 kind of goes on to 232 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:14,040 persuade mark to finally do it. And I think after arguing for a 233 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,480 while, he realized that he was outnumbered and that it was the 234 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,060 situation was being stretched a little too thin. I think he kind 235 00:14:23,060 --> 00:14:29,600 of gave in. Mark finally called for help two hours after he shot 236 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,260 Paul. Yeah. I mean, he essentially was being selfish. 237 00:14:33,260 --> 00:14:35,720 You know, he was like, I'm going to be 238 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,260 scrubbing toilets. Was something he said a lot. Basically, he was 239 00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:45,820 trying to find ways for me to agree to help him get out of it. 240 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:48,940 You know, who's to say if he really knew the severity of it? 241 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,260 But I legitimately think he was concerned more about his own 242 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:56,500 life than than mine. At the time, I think that was his only 243 00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:59,800 hold up. And when Mark did call for help. 244 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Caitlin Van Mol: He didn't just dial 911 245 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:06,360 Paul: he called public safety. Do you remember if he had to 246 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,620 look up that number? He probably did, because I don't know it. 247 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:15,180 Yeah, yeah, 911 I know that one. We know that one's pretty, 248 00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:19,200 pretty, yeah. So then they kind of, you know, but, and then once 249 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,940 this happens, it's sort of the wheel is spinning. You know, the 250 00:15:22,940 --> 00:15:26,240 corrections are happening. Though, he is asked by one of 251 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:29,600 the cops, like, Why'd it take two hours? And he, you know, he 252 00:15:29,660 --> 00:15:33,920 by now, though he's in like, totally accountability mode. 253 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,220 He's like, Yeah, I just, I was afraid, you know, he just, he 254 00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:41,380 answers very truthfully. While all this is happening, Paul's 255 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:46,540 phone rang. So my girlfriend called me while the cops were 256 00:15:46,540 --> 00:15:49,660 there at my in my apartment, and I basically, she's like, well, 257 00:15:49,660 --> 00:15:52,120 what are we doing tonight, you know? And I was like, oh, you 258 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,060 know, Mark just shot me, you know, I was like, the first one 259 00:15:55,060 --> 00:16:00,180 to break that news to her, which is very crazy feeling to be to 260 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:04,800 say the words, first of all, like, yeah, it's a weird thing 261 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,460 to say, and to actually, like, mean, it, Paul was loaded into 262 00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:12,360 an ambulance and taken to the hospital. So, you know, they 263 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,240 basically cut my clothes off because we don't know if there 264 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,820 was, you know, how many shots there were, that was still a 265 00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:21,620 question. We didn't know if the bullet was still, like in my 266 00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:25,580 head, because I had this large, like hematoma behind me from 267 00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:29,060 falling into those chairs. And so I'm basically, like, in 268 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:33,320 trauma mode. You know, they gave me CAT scans and things like 269 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,700 that, and that's when I definitively find out that the 270 00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:42,640 bullet bounced off my head. And then all the doctors were first, 271 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,520 they were surprised I was talking, and then they were they 272 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,860 were telling me, like, by the way, like bullets bounce off of 273 00:16:47,860 --> 00:16:50,200 you. You know, they're like, we've just never seen this 274 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:50,680 before. 275 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,640 Caitlin Van Mol: Hilarious. Can you, like, fix it? 276 00:16:55,780 --> 00:16:58,780 Paul: And one woman thought I tried to kill myself. She's 277 00:16:58,780 --> 00:17:02,460 like, she was like, very angry with me. Oh, well, that's not. I 278 00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:07,380 was like, now's not really a good time. I was like, I swear I 279 00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:11,700 didn't do this. Once doctors assessed Paul's situation, they 280 00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:15,900 told him, to no one's surprise, he would have to have surgery. 281 00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:20,040 When I heard that, like surgery was the only option, you know, I 282 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,000 was like, I was a little scared by that. For sure, surgery is, 283 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000 like, definitely a big fear of mine. I was just like, Okay, 284 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,680 well, this happened. Now these other secession of events need, 285 00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:33,920 need to happen like this to get fixed. You know, yeah, and fixed 286 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,160 is obviously a loose word, because nothing was necessarily 287 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,580 fixed. That was a craniotomy. So they removed parts of my skull, 288 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,400 fixed what they had to fix, and then put my skull back together. 289 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:50,080 Paul's girlfriend, Anna, had called his family, and they all 290 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:54,280 gathered at the hospital, including his dad. From the 291 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,640 book, I know you didn't have a great relationship with your 292 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,320 dad, yeah, absolutely. So what was it like having him there, 293 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,560 yeah, like, like you said it, there was obviously a lot of, 294 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,520 like, friction in our in my childhood, between me and him, 295 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,400 and more, mostly with my mom and my sisters, like, with me, it 296 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,700 was more he was just sort of absent. And kind of could be 297 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,020 cruel sometimes, but, you know, not to a point where, like, it 298 00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:21,980 raised any alarms, but, you know, just normal, like, kind of 299 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:26,360 absent, bad dad stuff. I mean, they got divorced when I was 16, 300 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:30,740 him being there, I knew made, made it so that this was, like 301 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:33,560 an event, you know, and I was at the center of that. 302 00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:38,360 Were they? I mean, how did everyone get along? They, they, 303 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:42,160 they tried to get along. He doesn't have a good sense of, 304 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,140 like, personhood. So, like, obviously, I just got out of 305 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:50,320 brain surgery, and like, it wasn't on his mind to, like, 306 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,260 mute his phone or anything. So like, his phone kept going off, 307 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,440 like, and he's probably got hard of hearing a little bit as all 308 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,580 like, older men get, it was just blaring when it would go off. 309 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,660 And like my sister, being a nurse would be like dad. And 310 00:19:03,660 --> 00:19:06,720 what are you doing? You know, shut that off. The now is like 311 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,260 the worst time as far as stimulus is concerned for Paul. 312 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,380 So there was that, there was the lack of like awareness, you 313 00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:17,640 know, whereas he would post like pictures of me, you know, with 314 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,840 my head all bandaged up to his Facebook friends, like with my 315 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,020 kids today, which because, like, to him, it's, he's not usually 316 00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:27,320 with his kids, you know. And so, like, he meant it to get 317 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:32,120 attention, obviously, but that was his way of sort of showing 318 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:36,560 affection, as if, like an alien, you know, it's the old, the old 319 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,900 joke where it's like aliens would observe something and then 320 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:41,620 they try to recreate it, yeah, that's kind of how he was with 321 00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:45,760 parenting, you know. And he's like, how many staples Do you 322 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,400 think you have? I'm like, I don't know, man. And I'm like, 323 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,340 nine. And he's like, Oh, you have 19. And guess what? Like, 324 00:19:51,340 --> 00:19:53,860 that was my jersey number when I played baseball. And this is, 325 00:19:53,860 --> 00:19:56,320 like, everything always, like, has to go back, you know, cool 326 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,140 dad, yeah. So it was just, you know, it was just stuff like 327 00:19:59,140 --> 00:19:59,920 that, yeah. 328 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,320 And again, like we're on much, much better terms now, like, 329 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:09,720 especially lately, he actually it talks to all of us now, like 330 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,260 he actually goes to events now, like he's invited to stuff. Like 331 00:20:13,260 --> 00:20:18,060 we're we're all relatively cordial. Do you think you would 332 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:24,080 be in this place with your dad if you hadn't got shot? Um, I 333 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:28,460 think where we are now is is totally based off of him and my 334 00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:32,240 mom's relationship. Well, like, I don't think what happened he 335 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,960 still doesn't get what happened to me. He thinks it was not as 336 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,960 traumatic as it really was. He does not understand how severe 337 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,740 it was. He doesn't know how severe the injury was. He 338 00:20:41,740 --> 00:20:44,200 doesn't know the sort of emotional stuff. I still, to 339 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,620 this day, go through that sort of thing. After eight days in 340 00:20:47,620 --> 00:20:52,120 the hospital, Paul was released to go home. My mom had just 341 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,840 bought a new house with her partner, who is not she. He 342 00:20:56,380 --> 00:21:00,540 broke up with her now because of me, basically, he was like, I 343 00:21:00,540 --> 00:21:04,140 just can't deal with your life. So now she's with someone she 344 00:21:04,140 --> 00:21:07,380 has known for a very long time, and he's very awesome. But at 345 00:21:07,380 --> 00:21:10,380 the time, it was this other guy, yeah, so they bought a house 346 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:14,520 together, and so I had, like, barely been there, barely seen 347 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,400 it, and now I have to, like, live there for X amount of 348 00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:20,540 months. She just completely took care of me, and I was 349 00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:24,560 essentially a child. I say coming home from the hospital is 350 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,040 basically, like the hour after you get a cavity filled, but 351 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,360 it's like times 10 and it's all the time. I basically had all 352 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:38,000 the staple stuff for a severe TBI. A TBI is a traumatic brain 353 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,860 injury, so, like, cognitively, that was what we were saying. 354 00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:46,420 You know, it's it's the memory, it's the problems thinking 355 00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:49,660 clearly, focusing for long periods of time, like I can do 356 00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:52,840 little bursts, especially early on, it was very little bursts, 357 00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:59,020 sensory, sensory perception over simulation. As far as like 358 00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:02,160 physical attributes, my balance and coordination were really 359 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:08,400 poor, and still are I got like the TBI plus PTSD thing is all 360 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,340 like the rage personality changes, you know, anger Paul 361 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:19,380 had been shot just six weeks shy of graduation, and all of the 362 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:22,220 end of college events Were starting up. The school was 363 00:22:22,220 --> 00:22:25,280 like, wrapping up its stuff. And I'm like, I can see it from 364 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,860 afar, but I can't be there. You know? That was really, really 365 00:22:27,860 --> 00:22:30,860 tough, especially being an English major. There was like, 366 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,620 the award ceremony night, the celebration for all English 367 00:22:33,620 --> 00:22:38,600 majors, combined with the FOMO of missing out on the end of the 368 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,200 memories of the end of school with, like the people you've 369 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,160 known for four years who now didn't even know what happened 370 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,000 to you. Like that was troubling, too in its own right. Like I was 371 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,060 just gone, I just dropped off the face of the earth to them, 372 00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:57,460 but you didn't even tell your professors. So, yeah, allegedly, 373 00:22:57,580 --> 00:23:01,020 one of my professors found out through the Star Tribune, like 374 00:23:01,020 --> 00:23:05,040 the newspaper, you know, two weeks after they flubbed a lot 375 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,820 of the handling of it, they talked down the severity of it a 376 00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:13,680 lot, and they just said, like, a student was injured from a 377 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,680 firearm, like, going off it. Basically it was, like, a 378 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,860 Facebook post and, like, that was it. But, like, okay, so I 379 00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:24,080 understand they want to protect themselves publicly, yeah, but 380 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,460 to not even be like, dear professors of this kid that 381 00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:30,980 would fell, that fell to my girlfriend and my mom, they had 382 00:23:30,980 --> 00:23:34,640 to reach out to them all. They didn't understand, like they 383 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,420 still didn't get the severity, like it was so hard to convince 384 00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:41,800 people that it was bad brain surgery. I don't know what else 385 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,100 I need to tell you. I know they got to that point they're like, 386 00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:47,200 No, I don't think you understand. He cannot come back 387 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,620 to class. He cannot write your paper. He's not going to do with 388 00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:52,900 the homework assigned like there's this is not happening. 389 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,540 So how did you graduate? My mom and girlfriend, Anna, convinced 390 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,540 that all to basically take incomplete stuff, slash, 391 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,000 wave it, you know. And because I had A's in all the classes 392 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,820 anyway, prior to that, they're like, Okay, yeah, you can 393 00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:16,140 graduate. And so I did end up walking may 20. So I got shot 394 00:24:16,140 --> 00:24:19,380 April 7, and walked for graduation on May 20. 395 00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:23,780 Caitlin Van Mol: Meanwhile, Mark did not walk with this class. 396 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:28,580 The university's current weapons policy says people who have a 397 00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:32,960 valid permit to carry a firearm and to comply with all legal 398 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,460 requirements associated with such permit may keep the firearm 399 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,440 in a trunk or glove compartment of their locked motor vehicle. 400 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:47,320 It also states violation of this policy may result in discipline 401 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:52,060 or other sanctions up to and including immediate termination 402 00:24:52,060 --> 00:24:56,320 of employment, expulsion from the university, trespass from 403 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:56,920 campus. 404 00:24:58,360 --> 00:24:59,920 Paul: They expelled Marx that he did. 405 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,720 Not walk with us on graduation. Like, that's a good start, you 406 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,760 know. And then that summer, they then, by some means, reversed 407 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,420 that decision, whether that was Mark coming to them with a 408 00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:16,620 lawyer. His family was very wealthy, so they have some sort 409 00:25:16,620 --> 00:25:20,160 of leeway, right? And I don't know, like, I'm assuming they 410 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,000 just sent him a diploma, right? Because he didn't like walk, but 411 00:25:24,140 --> 00:25:28,760 that was quite a slap in the face from from both entities, 412 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:31,400 both from Mark, because that's not the behavior of somebody 413 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,120 who, like, cares about my feelings or accept repercussions 414 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,700 for his actions. Yeah, that's someone who's trying to, like, 415 00:25:37,940 --> 00:25:40,960 get on with their life, however, whatever means they can do it 416 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,500 right, like defending themselves. And then from the 417 00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:47,980 school's perspective, I thought, okay, so you're morally okay 418 00:25:47,980 --> 00:25:50,620 with a student shooting another student. That just that's what 419 00:25:50,620 --> 00:25:54,700 that means, you know. So that was, like I said, that was a 420 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:58,660 slap in the face. I mean, as far as accountability goes, 421 00:25:58,780 --> 00:26:00,780 literally nothing changed for them, 422 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:09,480 Mark, I can't know his interior life, nothing, nothing in his 423 00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:14,220 exterior life changed, but I couldn't speak to any regret he 424 00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:19,260 might have or guilt he might feel. Paul did sue mark, which 425 00:26:19,260 --> 00:26:23,360 then got kicked to his parents, homeowners insurance. Yeah, we 426 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,840 sued mark, but technically, we sued like the second largest 427 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,540 insurance company in the world, like it's like a billion dollar 428 00:26:29,540 --> 00:26:33,800 insurance company and and so Mark's parents were also 429 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,640 divorced, which is something we kind of bonded over when we were 430 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,400 getting to know each other. But so what that meant for us, 431 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,320 though, in this situation, they both had a policy from the same 432 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:51,220 company, so the pool of damages was like double, basically, well 433 00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:56,140 potential damages. That was just a good thing for my lawyer to 434 00:26:56,140 --> 00:26:59,620 sort of have in mind. It didn't necessarily work out that way, 435 00:26:59,860 --> 00:27:04,320 because, as Paul learned, suing a huge company isn't a walk in 436 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,240 the park, it's hell, because they'll send their goons after 437 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,720 you. They'll just have private investigators watch you when. 438 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,560 You never know when really so you're incentivized not to get 439 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,500 better. Basically, you're incentivized to hide, to 440 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:23,780 disappear. Yeah, you have to try it, to try in secret, basically, 441 00:27:23,780 --> 00:27:27,620 you know, getting a job was scary because I had to, like, 442 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,700 put myself out there and be interviewed and brag about 443 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:34,580 myself, but knowing in the back of my mind that there's this 444 00:27:34,580 --> 00:27:38,120 other entity who could get these transcripts and use that against 445 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,860 me, which they did. Would they use just even the fact that you 446 00:27:41,860 --> 00:27:46,060 had a job against you absolutely anything, even if it's like they 447 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:49,420 would spin anything and everything to their benefit, you 448 00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:51,700 could do no right? So you're better off just trying to 449 00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:54,880 disappear, which is what I tried to do. Effectively, the 450 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,620 insurance company also sent Paul to a battery of cognitive tests 451 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,220 and assessments by doctors that worked for the company I had to 452 00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:08,820 do, I had to treat it like a full time job to like, be tested 453 00:28:09,420 --> 00:28:14,340 and humiliated. And it was, you know, nine hours of them doing 454 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:18,900 various mental cognitive tests and vocational tests and and 455 00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:21,800 you'd speak to their counselor. I'm doing air quotes, 456 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,940 rehabilitation specialists you know, who would Gage you, and 457 00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:29,720 they're all hired by insurance companies trying to disprove 458 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,580 that anything is wrong with you. And then in these actual tests, 459 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,200 I didn't hide anything. I was very honest. I never, obviously 460 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,340 never told why. During the actual tests, I tried my 461 00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:46,660 hardest. I just did them poorly. I was, I was cognitively 462 00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:49,300 disabled. I have an invisible disability, you know, like, 463 00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:52,300 everything you say to any medical professional is 464 00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:56,380 scrutinized. First, they make you sign a waiver saying that 465 00:28:56,380 --> 00:28:59,740 they you realize they're not there to treat you. So they're 466 00:28:59,740 --> 00:29:01,260 off to a good start there. 467 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,260 They're like, you know, you realize I'm here just to 468 00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:08,640 basically say you're wrong, and you have to sign acknowledge, 469 00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,460 yeah, I realize you're not here to give me advice. And so, you 470 00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:15,420 know, we have our people. I do that with legitimate companies 471 00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:19,740 who do that. And so I got actual data, yeah. And so then if it 472 00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:24,140 ever went to a jury, then they would have these two data sets, 473 00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:27,800 you know, and one would say he had a severe TBI, he's got PTSD 474 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,040 and this and that, and this and that, and one would say he had a 475 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,300 mild TBI, and he's had PTSD his whole life, because his parents 476 00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:39,200 got divorced. During this process, Paul had to give a 477 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,780 deposition, being in Paul's position where his life was 478 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:49,960 involuntarily changed completely might make anyone angry, but 479 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,980 feeling increased anger and personality changes are also 480 00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:58,000 very common effects of a traumatic brain injury, and I 481 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,860 threw up during my deposition without. 482 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,300 That was partly stress. I think the anxiety of it all, you know, 483 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:06,840 my voice did the thing where I was in a different register in 484 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,380 the deposition, is it kind of like testifying, where, like, 485 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:14,220 one lawyer goes and then the other lawyer is, like, you're 486 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:18,060 lying, or whatever. Mine could step in if he had to, but it was 487 00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:21,920 mostly the other guy. He mine. Mine said he wanted to do 488 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,740 something unique, where he wanted me to get angry, and he 489 00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:27,260 didn't tell me that ahead of time. He didn't prepare me for 490 00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:31,100 that, and I did. I chewed the other one out. I basically 491 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:34,280 yelled at him multiple times, and he's like, See, my client 492 00:30:34,580 --> 00:30:38,180 has a TBI. He's got PTSD. One symptom is rage, and he's 493 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:40,780 yelling at you right now, like he did that as a superpower for 494 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,540 me, typically, they don't want you to get angry. But mine was 495 00:30:43,540 --> 00:30:45,460 like, See, he's affected. 496 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,040 Unknown: We're gonna be right back. 497 00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:55,000 Paul: Paul's family was extremely supportive, but the 498 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,540 changes in his mood and the fact that they didn't seem to be 499 00:30:58,540 --> 00:31:03,120 improving, worried them it's human nature to want to help 500 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,420 somebody in recovery. But then there comes a point where they 501 00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:09,000 think that you should be fine by that point, and then maybe 502 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,720 you're actually not fine. It was really tough when, like, I 503 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:18,480 looked somewhat normal, but then all the case was going on. I was 504 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,460 really deep into, like, my PTSD and my personality was really 505 00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:25,760 altering. In my mind. I had a lot of these spirals based off 506 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,120 of, like, I'd be overstimulated, that I'd be thinking about the 507 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,660 case. And then, you know, my my fuse was short, all these, like, 508 00:31:32,660 --> 00:31:35,420 these big swirling things were spiraling inside me, but I 509 00:31:35,420 --> 00:31:39,680 looked fine on the outside, right. And so when, then, then, 510 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,520 when my parents would be like, well, how come you haven't made 511 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,460 that breakthrough yet? This. That was what really 512 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:50,920 struck me. And I was like, Man, this really stinks. That's when 513 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,000 I realized how isolating a TBI is. You just feel marooned on 514 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,880 like brain injury Island. The best thing to do in that 515 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,780 situation would be like to communicate it right at the same 516 00:32:00,780 --> 00:32:03,840 time it's inhibiting your communication skills. So like 517 00:32:04,020 --> 00:32:08,640 and TBI is are tricky, because in theory, like, I could be 518 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,460 struggling, oh, I will be struggling with this forever, 519 00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:14,280 and it could get way worse at any time. And that's kind of the 520 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,420 scary thing about this, 521 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,500 is like, we just never know when it will break one way or the 522 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:22,460 other, you know. And thankfully, in the aggregate, till now, it's 523 00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:26,240 been breaking, you know, positively, but you know, at a 524 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,020 20 year mark, it could just all fall apart. And you know, you 525 00:32:30,020 --> 00:32:33,080 can do as much as you can to mitigate that, but it's just the 526 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:33,860 fact of the matter, 527 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:41,980 how what is it like having an invisible disability, and how do 528 00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:45,880 you feel about that word? Yeah, I didn't even own it for a long 529 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,700 time because I was really struggled with it. I was, like, 530 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:52,000 patting myself down. Like, do I deserve to say this and like, 531 00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:56,080 obviously, I, I came to the conclusion that I do because, 532 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:02,160 like, it curbs the extent of my work and play. It curbs my, you 533 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,480 know, interior life. It limits and it alters the way i i can 534 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,200 move through the world. And so like, Yes, I, I am disabled, and 535 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,080 the invisible disability is especially strange because the 536 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,840 awareness for it's just not quite there. And so like in when 537 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,060 I did work, my strange behaviors, you know, the kind 538 00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:26,540 imp, the kind co workers would call me quiet, and the unkind 539 00:33:26,540 --> 00:33:29,540 ones would kind of say, like, oh man, you must have been drunk 540 00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:34,940 crazy last night, and like, because I, you know, didn't 541 00:33:34,940 --> 00:33:37,220 really know how to say it. I didn't want to say it as well, 542 00:33:37,220 --> 00:33:41,380 because I was, it was very much just a recent event. I just kind 543 00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:44,260 of went along with it, you know. And so this one guy just thought 544 00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:48,280 I was always high and drinking, and it's a party animal, when, 545 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,520 in reality, I just had the TBI, and I was just a strange person 546 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:52,540 because of my TBI, 547 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,620 yeah. And so like, I've since then, I've been trying to raise 548 00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:59,800 some awareness for it. Just because they're unseen. It's 549 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,940 like, yeah, yeah. I think if people, like, were aware of it, 550 00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:05,760 and that's why I when I say I'm a writer, I always say I'm a 551 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,820 disabled writer, I just feel like I kind of have to be that 552 00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:12,300 spokesperson for it, yeah, because it's, I mean, just 553 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:17,160 talking with you, like, in in two hours, but short 554 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,860 conversation, like, I don't know you, obviously. And like, 555 00:34:20,700 --> 00:34:24,200 obviously, you seem fine. Yeah, yeah. And my word retrieval has 556 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,240 been on point right now. Like, when I talk to my wife on walks 557 00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:32,000 or something, there'll come times where I'll be like, Gosh 558 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,480 darn it, what is that darn word? And it'll take me till like, 559 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,760 three hours later, and I'll finally come up with it. So, 560 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,980 like, that's something I've noticed lately. And then, of 561 00:34:39,980 --> 00:34:43,300 course, like there's not a whole lot of stimulus happening right 562 00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:45,940 now. There's nothing going on there. Of course, if I was in 563 00:34:45,940 --> 00:34:49,780 public right now, like a coffee shop, I would probably be over. 564 00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:53,380 I might have to wear, like, some some glasses and headphones, but 565 00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:59,080 I'm okay in my basement. When he was ready, Paul started therapy 566 00:34:59,140 --> 00:34:59,920 to process what. 567 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,860 Happened. He tried talk therapy at first, but then he became a 568 00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:09,180 guy who was interested in sexual purity. And so, like, I'm like, 569 00:35:09,180 --> 00:35:13,020 Okay, we're gonna cross him off and go someplace else. So my mom 570 00:35:13,020 --> 00:35:16,500 works in mental health as well, and so she's like, I know 571 00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:20,240 somebody who can do EMDR if you're interested. And like I 572 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:23,060 said before I minored in psychology, so I knew what EMDR 573 00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:29,060 was. We've talked a lot on the show about EMDR. EMDR stands for 574 00:35:29,060 --> 00:35:34,700 eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Early forms of 575 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:39,140 this therapy had you follow a light with your eyes going left 576 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,620 to right while going through each aspect of the trauma. And 577 00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:48,040 by this time, we've realized that it's any bilateral 578 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,160 simulation. So you can do it tapping on your thighs. You can 579 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,540 do it mine. I did holding like nunchuck controllers, you know, 580 00:35:55,540 --> 00:35:58,780 and it would vibrate in each hand. And so we transitioned to 581 00:35:58,780 --> 00:36:02,580 that. And I think that starting with one and transitioning to 582 00:36:02,580 --> 00:36:04,980 the other, I think was really helpful for me, because, like, I 583 00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:10,140 got the best of both, really, and, yeah, I would recommend 584 00:36:10,140 --> 00:36:13,200 EMDR, if you're up for it. The warning I got was, if talk 585 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,100 therapy is taking a truck from Minnesota to Florida working out 586 00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:17,760 your trauma, 587 00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:22,580 EMDR is taking a private jet. You know, you're really, are 588 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,060 sort of total recalling it, if it works. You're legitimately 589 00:36:26,060 --> 00:36:28,580 visualizing it and being coached through it as if it were 590 00:36:28,580 --> 00:36:31,460 happening. And your brain will just do what it wants to do, 591 00:36:31,460 --> 00:36:34,220 like a little Plinko board. It'll land where it wants to 592 00:36:34,220 --> 00:36:38,660 land. Your brain wants to solve problems, and Embr is formulated 593 00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:42,580 to solve problems, but in the same way that it's more direct, 594 00:36:42,580 --> 00:36:45,340 yeah. I mean, you have to be ready for that. It, yeah, isn't 595 00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:48,400 it more intense? It's, it's very intense. You're out, you're out 596 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,240 of commission for the rest of the day. I I drank a pot of 597 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:55,720 coffee after one of them, and like, fell asleep watching stand 598 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:59,320 up comedy. It just drains you. But, I mean, for me, though, it 599 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,720 really did soften the blow of the antagonistic memories. It 600 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:07,740 codes them neutrally. You know, instead of being like, I'm 601 00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:11,220 trauma, it rewrites their code so that you're just living 602 00:37:11,220 --> 00:37:13,320 alongside them. In the same way, 603 00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:17,640 me being a writer, I became the dominant voice in writing the 604 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,520 story, and so like now my voice, I got to kind of do the same 605 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,120 thing sandbox my way through it. Writing about the self really 606 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,820 opens up these, like valves, and you and like, your brain wants 607 00:37:28,820 --> 00:37:32,300 to solve problems. And if you just let it solve problems, 608 00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:34,760 you'll, you know, you'll find that it wants to give you those, 609 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,180 like eureka moments. And mine did both, in both things, like, 610 00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:41,320 I'd be in therapy and we'd have, like, a little mini writing 611 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,780 workshop, and I'd go home and quick write what I learned about 612 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:46,960 myself. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think of talking about 613 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,660 it and writing about it, I think it was just like a feelings 614 00:37:49,660 --> 00:37:52,300 exorcism, absolutely, and that's, that's, it's totally 615 00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:56,200 worth it. Like, I do my some of my best thinking on paper. I've 616 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,560 gotten better at speaking it ever since my injury, of course, 617 00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:04,440 but like, I still probably do my best thinking on the page to 618 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:09,000 this day, a huge part of Paul's support system through this was 619 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,780 his girlfriend, Anna. I mean, you were already together, but 620 00:38:12,780 --> 00:38:16,740 this is, like, such a huge thing to go through at such a young 621 00:38:16,740 --> 00:38:20,160 age as a couple. I mean, like, even your mom's boyfriend 622 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,480 couldn't, right, right? They broke up from it. I think it was 623 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,720 a lot of hers being That's just her personality and her 624 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:30,680 character. She was willing to take the roles on for whatever 625 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,960 reason, you know, more power to her. She delayed her own 626 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,480 successes coming out of school, she took the first job that 627 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,900 offered her money so that she would have a flexible schedule 628 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,160 to be able to be there in the summer with me, and then, you 629 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,940 know, from then on, she's worked her way up, and now she's very 630 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:49,960 established career at, like, a worldwide company, and we're 631 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,100 very proud of her. But like, she did not do that. She she put 632 00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:58,840 herself in on hiatus to, like, make sure I was okay. And I just 633 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,420 think whatever it is that is, it's in her blood to do that. We 634 00:39:03,420 --> 00:39:06,540 became this really uniquely designed machine that always 635 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,600 lands, you know, facing up, or something like that, like no 636 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,960 matter how it falls. The old cliche is we were forced to grow 637 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,500 up, you know, and more like it was, where we became aware of 638 00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:21,200 how cruel the world was very quickly, in a very uniquely 639 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,580 cruel way. There were obviously moments where, like, the rage 640 00:39:25,580 --> 00:39:27,920 got the better of me, and then those in those moments were the 641 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,280 ones where I would maybe explicitly blame mark me being 642 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,220 mad is just another way of him being in our relationship, and 643 00:39:34,220 --> 00:39:36,440 we have to just both move on from that. And so like that, 644 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,540 that kind of flipped the switch for me to sort of start to 645 00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:43,600 building that. Start building the buffer. Of like, Okay, you 646 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,140 something's happening. Take it easy. You know, maybe 647 00:39:47,140 --> 00:39:50,500 communicate it, if you can. She was her. She was very strong 648 00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:53,560 character, basically, obviously, in the in the book, she's my 649 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,740 girlfriend, and now we're married, yeah. How long have you 650 00:39:56,740 --> 00:39:59,740 been married? We got married in October. So, oh, wow. There. 651 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,300 Crap. Thank you so much. It was very good. Everything was 652 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,420 perfect. Like, I didn't think that would happen, but it was 653 00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:11,280 like the event was to a tee. Though Paul was doing well in 654 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,020 EMDR, and had a great support system. There was still the huge 655 00:40:16,020 --> 00:40:20,660 weight of the lawsuit on his shoulders. Neither party wanted 656 00:40:20,660 --> 00:40:24,740 to take it all the way to trial, but the insurance company just 657 00:40:24,740 --> 00:40:28,340 wasn't budgeting. It was, I mean, it was very traumatizing. 658 00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:32,300 And I often say this, and I stand by it, the four years post 659 00:40:32,300 --> 00:40:35,900 shooting were worse than the shooting, absolutely 100% part 660 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:40,180 of the case was that he admitted he was guilty. So, like, we were 661 00:40:40,180 --> 00:40:44,380 beyond that, and so we actually couldn't use any of the evidence 662 00:40:44,380 --> 00:40:47,740 of him lying or anything like that. It wasn't admissible, 663 00:40:47,740 --> 00:40:51,100 stuff. The jury would have been too skewed in my favor. So we 664 00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:55,600 weren't allowed to use like he hid the guns, he took two hours, 665 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,200 et cetera, et cetera, because he admitted that part. But isn't 666 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,480 that the story? Yeah, I know what they could so they one 667 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,080 thing was permissible in that whole spiel. I think it was the 668 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,360 fact that it did take too long, but we weren't allowed to say 669 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,200 why. Because the judge ruled that if he had gotten me help 670 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,920 sooner, I might not have as severe headaches. Yeah, because, 671 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,920 like, obviously, I learned this later. Your brain's obviously 672 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,360 not supposed to be exposed to oxygen. But, yeah, it was crazy. 673 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,780 They even did like a $50,000 mock trial to see, like, how 674 00:41:26,780 --> 00:41:31,640 much money they would allot me. So they spent so much money on 675 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,940 trying to give me as little money as possible, which is very 676 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:35,360 funny. 677 00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:40,300 Do you think I mean, this is speculation? Did they spend just 678 00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:43,960 as much money fighting you as they gave you. If I could just 679 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,260 do a quick math, the insurance company contracted the lawyer. 680 00:41:47,260 --> 00:41:52,060 He's had to have been fairly expensive, and then they paid 681 00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:55,300 for all, like the examinations, and then they paid for the mock 682 00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:58,720 trial. But that lawyer had to be expensive, so yeah, they 683 00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:03,360 probably paid him. What I mean, couple 100 grand, right? So it's 684 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,520 probably like, I don't know, 250 $300,000 685 00:42:06,660 --> 00:42:07,440 total for them. 686 00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:11,040 Yeah, it's a lot of, it's a lot of dough to just, they could 687 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,820 have just, you know, settled it a year in when it was kind of 688 00:42:14,820 --> 00:42:16,560 like when we sent the demand letter. They 689 00:42:17,580 --> 00:42:20,040 could have just been like, well, we can't do all that, but we can 690 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,580 do this and then this, they could have just saved time and 691 00:42:22,580 --> 00:42:25,640 money, but I was a claim number, and they fought that claim. You 692 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,520 know, I'm sure there's an element of, like, maybe they'll 693 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,860 just go away. But with something as dramatic and traumatic as 694 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:38,240 this, they're not gonna go away. We tried to mediate it three 695 00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:42,160 times, three or four times, and like, they're given like, a 696 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,580 number that they can go to that day. And so like, we knew, like, 697 00:42:45,580 --> 00:42:48,280 the first three times, like that their number was not going to be 698 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,560 high enough, but I still had to sit there for like, three hours. 699 00:42:50,740 --> 00:42:53,200 And like, the mediator, the mediator would say, like, well, 700 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,660 this is what they're thinking. You might have already been 701 00:42:55,660 --> 00:42:57,820 depressed, is what they're thinking, you know. And then, 702 00:42:57,820 --> 00:43:00,040 like, we'd go back and be like, well, he shot me in the head. 703 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,100 And he'd go over there for an hour and be like, well, you 704 00:43:02,100 --> 00:43:04,440 know, Mark shot him in the head. What do you think about that? 705 00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:07,140 And then they'd have to, and he's, like, he was, he came back 706 00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:10,320 and said, These guys suck. He's like, these guys are crappy 707 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,920 people. I hate working with them. And he tried his best, you 708 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,160 know, he but yeah, we ended up not mediating. Of course. We 709 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,280 just, like, a month before the trial, they just kind of gave 710 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:24,320 in. And how did you cover the costs? In the meantime, I had to 711 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,520 pay them for the most part, like therapy and stuff, and like my 712 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,860 little visits to, like, neuroscience centers and things 713 00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:33,860 like that. And I have no money, of course, but you know, my 714 00:43:33,860 --> 00:43:37,220 mom's helping me here, and there was the whole like hospital 715 00:43:37,220 --> 00:43:40,040 thing, was like 80 grand, something like that. 716 00:43:41,180 --> 00:43:44,140 And we got them to maybe waive some of that too. My mom called 717 00:43:44,140 --> 00:43:45,160 them and she was like, 718 00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:48,820 He's, like, has no money. He's a college student. Like, I don't 719 00:43:48,820 --> 00:43:51,040 know what you want him to do. And basically, like, they're 720 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,320 like, they understood that there would be a settlement, and 721 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,440 they're like, we'll wait for that. And of course, I knew at 722 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,500 some point the trial, it could have, they could have said, 723 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:00,420 you're gonna get 724 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,260 Unknown: 100 grand, and I'm like, oh shit, I'm screwed. 725 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:08,160 Like, I would have been screwed if that happened. Luckily, the 726 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,780 suit didn't go to trial, and the company settled with Paul. The 727 00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:16,920 money, of course, was a huge relief, but so was having this 728 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:21,980 off his back. I think the case solving itself played a huge 729 00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:25,700 part in me being able to sort of compartmentalize easier 730 00:44:27,140 --> 00:44:29,720 Paul: because a lot of closure happened that day. Absolutely 731 00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:34,340 like having that lingering paranoia solved a lot of issues. 732 00:44:34,340 --> 00:44:38,780 It didn't solve every issue, of course, but I mean, a lot of my 733 00:44:38,780 --> 00:44:42,880 stress went away that day. And I think it was visible to my 734 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,660 family too, like they kind of could see it. But I really felt 735 00:44:46,660 --> 00:44:50,680 like, by that point, nothing could, like intimidate me 736 00:44:50,740 --> 00:44:55,360 anymore. That was a huge thing I thought of. I really felt like I 737 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,060 am now, like the sole proprietor of like my future. You know what 738 00:44:58,060 --> 00:44:59,920 I mean to put it like in that met. 739 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,960 Stupid metaphor. I this was a full time job for me. I had to 740 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,040 earn this by very strange means, but I did earn it. And in fact, 741 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:08,520 it is 742 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:15,000 measly. If I itemize everything, anybody, any sane person, would 743 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,460 run the other way. If I had to say, like, Okay, you have to go 744 00:45:17,460 --> 00:45:19,980 through all this and then this is the check you get written. 745 00:45:20,220 --> 00:45:24,080 You could rip it and run. I know that heartbeat, but you know, of 746 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,740 course, it still is money. It still helped a lot, and it was 747 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,080 like a huge relief, absolutely. 748 00:45:31,340 --> 00:45:35,060 Caitlin Van Mol: But winning the lawsuit wouldn't undo the fact 749 00:45:35,060 --> 00:45:40,360 that Paul is permanently changed by what happened. So Mark didn't 750 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,880 really face any repercussions in the end, right? And you didn't 751 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:51,400 want to press charges, right? What would justice look like for 752 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,740 him? Specifically, that's interesting. 753 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,800 Paul: It's, that's kind of, it's, it's hard to answer. So my 754 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,520 take on it was, I didn't want to be responsible, as you 755 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,360 mentioned, for any punishment, right? So I expected the big 756 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:11,220 wheel of the law would turn and sort of carry out its business 757 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,600 and wherever it landed with Mark, you know, so be it. I 758 00:46:15,780 --> 00:46:20,100 didn't want any part of that. And so, because nothing 759 00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:24,920 happened, I am okay with that. I'm okay that the one, of 760 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,560 course, the expulsion, I wish would have stayed. He could have 761 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,500 taken those credits and gone elsewhere, but he didn't, you 762 00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:33,380 know, yeah, that's, that's where I'm at with that. And then, of 763 00:46:33,380 --> 00:46:38,300 course, I wish the school, then also sort of had some sort of 764 00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:41,920 accountability, whether that be some sort of financial thing, 765 00:46:41,980 --> 00:46:44,500 offset, offsetting thing, or, or even, like, 766 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,300 you know, I didn't even get a formal apology. I shook the 767 00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:52,660 President's hand on graduation, and I don't think they knew who 768 00:46:52,660 --> 00:46:56,920 I was. Yeah, that's the main thing, that justice is strange. 769 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,720 I think a lot of personal injury victims think Justice is the 770 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,300 check. And I think I can agree with that. Like it kind of is, 771 00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:06,000 and then my book is also kind of justice, because then again, I 772 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,760 got to be the dominant voice over everything, and, like, I 773 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:14,160 got to recode it, but also come out and and be like, you know, 774 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,880 this is what happened. I, you know, lived not to, not to, 775 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,660 like, name drop here, but I live to tell it, you know. 776 00:47:21,860 --> 00:47:25,400 Thank you for the plug. I love that stuff in movies. Do you 777 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,580 have any idea what Mark is doing these days back then, in like 778 00:47:28,580 --> 00:47:33,080 2018 I did look and it turned out we were actually living 779 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:38,300 within like 10 minutes of each other, and he was, at the time, 780 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,920 think, doing like, working for like a startup, like a 781 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,100 Midwestern startup, and that's kind of in line with what he was 782 00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:48,220 going to school for. So basically, he was busy trying to 783 00:47:48,460 --> 00:47:50,320 entrepreneur and 784 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,140 but since then, I haven't looked and then, obviously, with with 785 00:47:56,140 --> 00:48:00,540 the accumulation of therapy and in time and writing, 786 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:06,600 he just no longer kind of has that real estate in my head. And 787 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,620 we were talking about justice earlier. And I think sometimes 788 00:48:10,860 --> 00:48:15,960 that absence of thought is can be a form of justice for for me, 789 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:21,140 for him, you know, a collective moving on for the betterment of 790 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,880 all of our lives that are always be, like, tangentially related 791 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,120 to this thread, but like now they're sort of off shooting. 792 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,020 I'm trying, you know, I can't speak to if he's trying to do 793 00:48:33,260 --> 00:48:40,180 better now, but I refuse to sort of care, I guess, about what 794 00:48:40,180 --> 00:48:44,800 he's doing, and I think that is like a forgiveness and a justice 795 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:45,820 at the same time. 796 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:55,720 Caitlin Van Mol: This is live to tell, 797 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:01,020 I'm Caitlin van mol, you can follow the show on Instagram and 798 00:49:01,020 --> 00:49:06,720 Tiktok at lived to tell podcast, and you can follow me at Caitlin 799 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:11,460 van mol. Please rate review and subscribe to the show. It really 800 00:49:11,460 --> 00:49:15,960 helps. You can also join me over on Patreon, where we have a 801 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:20,420 community chat, extended videos and bonus episodes. That's 802 00:49:20,420 --> 00:49:20,960 patreon.com/lived 803 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,060 to tell I'll see you in two weeks. You.