Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.

Adam: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

I'm Adam McQueen, and I'm joined in the Private Eye Office today by Ian

Hislop and Jane McKenzie, but fear not.

Later in the episode, we'll be hearing from both of our other regulars, Helen

Lewis and Andrew Hunter Murray, who are gonna be talking about President Trump

and his health secretary, RFK Junior, and they're slightly peculiar ideas

about how to make America healthy again.

But first the three of us are gonna be discussing some of the

stories from the last issue, uh, specifically police bugging of

journalists, both in Northern Ireland and on our tellies courtesy of ITV.

And, um, some of the things that have happened since our last edition came out

specifically, we finally, after 11 months, have a new Archbishop of Canterbury.

Ian,

Ian: I thought you were gonna say finally, after thousands of years,

we have a female Archbishop of Canterbury, which is is certainly news,

Adam: 1,428 years since Saint Augustine to go.

Yeah.

The first woman in the role, specifically, she is Sarai Mul,

formerly the Bishop of London.

And before that, in, I mean, by any measure, is an impressive LinkedIn

page, chief nurse in the NHS.

That's not bad.

Is it for two positions, Jane?

Jane: Also from a, a comprehensive school background, which, uh, I don't think

the latest few, uh, bishops have been,

Adam: Uh,

but it is an extraordinary achievement, isn't it?

I mean, women priests were first ordained in, uh, the Church of England in 1994.

They could only become bishops from 2014.

Uh, so Mal became Bishop of London, which effectively the third in command

of the Church of England, isn't it?

It's after the archbishops of Canterbury and York Um,

remind us, Ian, why did Justin Wellbe her predecessor?

Why was he obliged to step down?

Ian: Well, he had an unfortunate argument with someone at a drinks party at the

British Museum and he just had to go.

Uh oh.

Jane: think

Adam: we may be getting the timing slightly wrong on that one.

Ian: Oh yes,

that was afterwards.

Uh, no self-regarding nonsense.

He had to leave quite rightly 'cause he'd been, , involved in one of the major.

Scandals in, in the Church of England, about, his connection with a, really

horrific serial abuser called, John Smythe, who'd run, uh, various

Christian camps and had had various, connections with Wellbe over the years.

And we'd written about it at some length, particularly Jane had.

Adam: I

should say

for podcast.

Listen, actually, um,

If you do want the full story, um, if you go back to episode one, uh, 126 of page

94, uh, which we recorded last November, France Ween, uh, joined us to discuss

the John Smythe case in, um, in depth.

Essentially it was John Smith was an evangelical Christian who ran these.

Camps around the country for young people, but also turned out to be

sadistically beating young men in a shed at the end of his garden.

Jane: Uh, that's a summary of the, of the beginning of the story.

after, some people found out, um, what was was going on, he was, Moved a long,

long way away from, uh, where he could be a problem for senior people at the,

the Church of England off, off to, to Africa So, the fact that he was, he

was just sort of exported to, carry on.

Behaving dreadfully, was another big part of the scandal.

Adam: was one of the many figures in the church who was found out to have,

um, kind of connived in this, this, this relocation rather than actually

attempting to tackle the problem.

Ian: Yes.

And he, he, it turned out he'd sent him a Christmas card and he'd supported

the mission and all of these things didn't quite chime with the, suggestion

that he knew nothing about it.

And, he had no links to, um, this figure previous to.

When he first heard about him.

And so there was a great deal of argument about, um, safeguarding

in the church, whether the head of the C of E could actually continue,

in his posters, head of the Church of England when the safeguarding

had completely failed, with SM and,

and more and more cases kept turning up of repeated failures

with other priests, with other, uh, lay people in various positions.

And eventually he decided very reluctantly that he had to go

and he left with no grace at all.

Even after he'd been criticized for being graceless, he stood up in the

House of Lords and basically said, well, you know, the main victim in the

whole thing was his diary secretary.

'cause you know, she had to rearrange stuff, which was unbelievably tone

deaf and various, other bishops sat around laughing, but the one

who didn't and covered her face in her hands was Sarai Muli,

Adam: who now takes over the job.

Ian: and I think.

Maybe as a basic requirement for the job, finding your predecessor

cringe Work worthy is pretty good.

Adam: I mean the, the ongoing safeguarding issues around the church with, there was

an awful lot of them still, still ongoing.

Um, that's presumably part of the reason why it's taken a full 11

months to appoint a successor.

I mean, the, the, the Catholic Church managed two day

papal conclave, didn't they?

So, um,

Jane: That's right.

Um, in order to, uh, appoint an archbishop for the, um, church of England, uh, the

first thing you have to do is appoint the panel that that does the appointing.

Uh, and they did have a great deal of difficulty putting together a panel,

um, because of the number of, um, various sort of bishops and senior

figures who also are sort of dealing with the fallout from their own

safeguarding scandals, where within.

Various different diocese seas, they have also failed to investigate or

sort of, sort of done belated or poor investigations or coverups.

Um, so there were multiple people who you would've expected to have

been on that panel who, who stepped aside or sort of had to be replaced.

Mulally's

Adam: record like on sort of safeguarding issues?

Jane: So, um, Malawi certainly has experience of stepping into

the leadership of an organization that's in a terrible mess, uh,

safeguarding and leadership wise.

When she first started as Bishop of London, the London Diocese

was in a, a, a shocking state.

in fact.

When she first arrived and started trying to impose some kind of organization and

governance and appropriate systems, um, there were some significant figures who

quit, such as the head of operations there, a man called Martin Sergeant.

Uh, now that's, it's not a good sign when somebody quits that, uh, because there's

an attempt to sort of clean things up.

It turned out that he had defrauded a Church of England, um, charitable

fund by about 5 million pounds.

Adam: pounds.

Wow.

Jane: Yes.

Ian: he's now in prison.

our readers will know much of the history of Mr. Sergeant's, um, uh,

desire to spend the church's money on gambling and on holidays and in

living, um, quite a high lifestyle.

So, um.

The fact that he quit, uh, the minute someone new came in who wanted to have

a look at things, um, was not a, not a great sign about the mess that was there.

And then the mess got even worse when he on leaving delivered.

, What was called a brain dump of information, which turned out to be a

lot of gossip and a lot of, , secondhand and unfounded rumor about all the

priests and all the people, , in London, , who he'd sort of vaguely known.

And the, , Bishop of London who came in Sarai, Mulally had then

to cope with, what do I do?

With all this information, information in inverted commas.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and there was a, a huge amount of criticism of the way, um, this

was handled, particularly after one priest committed suicide.

, Jane: So, uh, father Alan Griffin, um, took his own life after being subject to

one of the safeguarding investigations triggered by the brain dump.

and so it was a dreadful time for quite a lot of other, um, clergy

who, , were included in this sort of roundup of brain dumped gossip.

With sort of very little evidence of, of any actual, um, abuse

happening in, in these cases.

So, there was an inquest and, investigation into all of this and,

Mulally's, response to, the end of all of this, uh, was that she gave an

an unreserved apology for her part in having not sort of had, processes and

support in place of people quickly.

Once, um, all these safeguarding investigations.

Got started.

Well now that is, an interesting contrast to give an unreserved

apology for, for her party little all,

Ian: and I mean it's slightly ironic, that we now have, an Archie

for Canterbury who was accused of over zealotry in trying to prevent

abuse as opposed to under zealotry.

In trying to prevent abuse.

You, you essentially can't win in the Church of England.

Um, but uh, she seems to be can't winning in a slightly more positive direction.

Adam: It's, I would say it's another positive development after 1,428 years.

Isn't it really?

Ian: there are still people who are critical of her for that.

there are a number of other problems.

She's a woman.

As you, you've, I think pointed out, um, and this is still a problem, um,

in the Church of England, there's a, a group who don't, recognize women

bishops, let alone women archbishops.

She has to reconcile that as point number one.

Um,

Adam: I go for a really basic question here?

Because what exactly is the job of Archbishop of Canterbury?

It's not really one job, is it?

And it's got very little to do with Canterbury, but it's, it's in

fact several jobs, isn't it, Jake?

Jane: is.

And in fact, one of the jobs is to be bishop of Canterbury.

That's why.

The Diocese of Canterbury gets sort of more of a say than any other

diocese in, in the appointment.

Right.

The next tear up is to be the leader of the Church of England,

primate of All England, primate

Adam: primate so called Because you are the monkey to God's

organ grinder, presumably.

Ian: Yes.

That's

Jane: that's my Church of England Church.

I'm here.

Adam: week.

Jane: Um, but the Church of England is not the, the sort of only part of what's

called the Anglican communion, globally.

So, there are Anglican churches all over the world.

Ian: and the global Anglican communion is, Very divided by a number of issues,

between the conservative and the more liberal wings, the evangelicals and

the other wings, uh, a lot of the African churches in particular are

not very keen on, the attitude to same sex couples, the attitude to women,

bishops, and a number of other things.

And there's an organization called Gafcon, which is the global Anglican Fellowship.

And they greeted the appointment of this archbishop with sorrow.

The Bishop of Rwanda in particular is, is not happy.

Adam: The Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans to give them their,

uh, their, their, their full name.

Yes.

Um, they, they represent conservative churches, not just

in Africa but Asia as well.

They said they received the news from sorrow churches, South

Africa dissented from that.

Interestingly, they, they, they popped up and said they heartily

welcomed Mulally as archbishop.

But it is, it is a very odd job 'cause as you say, a large part of the global

communion that she's now the head of.

Do not recognize women priests or women bishops at all, do they?

Jane: No.

And in fact, they don't even recognize male bishops who've been

ordained by women bishops 'cause they don't accept the ordaining

worked if it was done by a woman.

Ian: because it's not in the direct apostolic succession.

Jane: That's right.

Ian: I just thought I'd throw that in

Adam: the direct apostolic de.

You don't get that in every podcast, do you?

Okay.

Ian: Well, I tell you, I was reading the result of who had actually got the

job and um, I was reading it in what had obviously been a quickly put together

piece and halfway through it stopped saying Mulally and it said Beasley.

And I thought, we haven't been told who the runner up is, but I think you have.

And this is Bishop Beasley who is Bath and Wells

Adam: i'd just say if you were Bishop Bothels, you'd probably wanna stick that.

'cause he's got a lovely palace.

That's the one with a moat where the swans come up to ring

a bell when they want feeding.

Ian: Right?

Yeah.

Okay.

Jane: Well,

Adam: country.

Um, legend there.

Ian: there.

All

I'm saying is there was a misprint and maybe they knew more than I

Adam: Possibly, yes.

Maybe, maybe next time Beasley, maybe you'll get lucky.

We should point out also, there is another part to the job as well, which is that,

uh, the arch of Canterbury, along with I think 26 other bishops also have seats

in this country's parliament, don't they?

In the House of Lords.

Ian: they?

do.

Adam: That was of course where, well, we made his crass resignation speech.

Uh, uh, uh, joking about his diary, diary secretary.

Um, but it's very odd 'cause it is a political role.

I mean, a literally political role in that sense.

But, um, days prior to, uh, Sarai Milan's appointment, her predecessor, George

Carey, made an extraordinary intervention.

He did an interview with the Telegraph in which he said the archbishop,

uh, the incoming archbishop.

Should maintain a judicious silence on specific policies, uh, and said that the

church had no more expertise than anyone.

When it comes to the ins and outs of how we handle migration, for example,

Ian: I think, um, the, the arch of Canterbury is meant to have

views on morality and ethics, that being part of the point of it.

And I think the engagement in politics, it always infuriates politicians.

I mean, they're very keen to invoke religion when it suits them, but when

religious figures get involved in politics, even to say, I think this

may be bad or good, may be wrong.

Maybe against conscience, they get very, very upset by it.

But as we all know, I mean, there, there is no way of escaping politics.

Um, and particularly not at the moment.

And she will have to deal with politics, um, not just internal politics.

And there's gonna be plenty of that in the church.

She'll have to deal, deal with real politics.

I mean, her name was put forward by the Prime Minister to the king.

I mean, this is politics.

Adam: It absolutely is.

Um, George Kerry, I should just say for the record, had to resigned as a

priest last December over not just his readmitting, a priest who'd been banned

from ministry after being accused of section assaults on teenage girls, but

actually actively pushing colleagues to give that priest a particular job.

So, um, he, he might.

Possibly consider taking his own advice on judicial silences

along with Justin Welby, I think.

Ian: Yeah.

Is there not a silent order where, where all former

archbishops could go for, I dunno.

I'm thinking maybe 10 years a Trappist location somewhere.

Adam: I'm saying nothing.

Ian: But it's going to be, same sex, couples.

Women, priests, um, and then assisted dying, which she's

already made her position clear on.

and as a former chief nurse, it was quite interesting 'cause she has done this, um,

Adam: an educated view, isn't it?

Yes, it's, yeah.

Ian: So that is quite interesting on one of those big moral issues.

we have someone who has.

Bit more experience.

So again, that will get her into trouble.

I'm sure that's politics.

I mean, it is actually a bill that's meant to be going through Parliament,

so there will be more of this to come.

for the sake of comprehensiveness, I should say.

There's also, the issue of COVID and the closing of the churches and they were

closed in London even for private prayer.

And a lot of, um, priests felt that was, um, a failure at the one time.

When the church was absolutely needed.

I mean, with any candidate there's a lot of baggage.

so I just thought I'd mention as much of it as possible, uh,

uh, and wish her luck obviously.

Adam: Now onto another story that Private Eye has been following

for a good long while now.

Uh, the discovery, or rather in this case, confirmation that the

police service of Northern Ireland was for many years routinely spying

on journalists in what they called a defensive security operation.

Uh, the journalist in question, quite a few other people have different opinions

about why it might've been happening.

Jane, you've been following this.

So what's the most recent development in this story?

Jane: Uh, so our last issue, we were, um, reporting on the publication of

the McCulloch review, , so in the case of, of two journalists who,

transpired, the police had indeed been, uh, carrying out surveillance on.

Uh, but in the course of that case, lots more, uh, cases of

surveillance came to light.

And so the new chief constable of, police service of Northern Ireland had

had a review carried out by a kc and that was published, um, last issue.

And lots and lots more, uh, evidence of, of surveillance came out in that,

including some, some unusual things such as anybody who had been in touch

with the police, press office, uh, journalists who got in touch, uh,

whether they phoned up or emailed in.

But so long as they're.

phone number was available.

It was kept, and then it was washed through the phone system to check

whether anybody from any police station anywhere in Northern Ireland was

speaking to journalists off the record.

So, in a way this was principally spying on their own staff, but they were doing

it by using, journalists and track, trying to track down journalists sources.

Adam: just to unpack this story a bit.

This all kicked off with, um, a documentary that was made about

the Locking Island massacre, which was, , an attack on a pub

for granted by Catholics in 1994.

Uh, a gun attack by members of the Oster Volunteer Force.

Um, it's actually during a World Cup match between Ireland and Italy.

So you can imagine how, how, how crowded the pub was at the time.

Um, many years later, the police ombudsman for Northern Ireland concluded

that, um, police in what was then known as the Royal Ster Constabulary.

Since, since turned into the police service in Northern Ireland.

Um, but the ombudsman concluded that, uh, the, the officers had, um, colluded

with the UVF to protect informants that they had in that particular

parent paramilitary organization.

so journalists, Barry McAfee and Trevor Binney made a

documentary about this in 2017.

So we're talking, this was something that amazed me slightly much.

We're not going right back to the height of the troubles in all of this.

This is, this is a much, much more recent surveillance efforts, isn't it?

Jane: Uh,

Adam: and McCafferty had their homes raised, they had documents seized.

uh, a judge later ruled that the search warrants that police had used

for that raid were inappropriate.

Um, and in the course of that investigation, they discovered the police

had been running covert surveillance on them for years, hadn't they?

Jane: the police were desperately trying to find out who, Bernie

and McCaffrey's sources were.

They suspected that somebody at the, police ombudsman.

Was, um, passing information.

So they were also carrying out surveillance of the people whose

job it is to be the police watchdog.

So they were carrying out surveillance of their own watchdog and of these, um, two

journalists to try and find out whether they had any contacts between them.

Um, they never uncovered.

The, who, the source of, of the information was through all of this.

But yes, they were using things like, um, traffic cameras to, to watch

where these journalists were going.

The, you, they were, you know, it's a proper like TV

style surveillance operation.

the, the alleged

Adam: crime in all of this, which as you say was never proved, was theft

of an official document because the Ombudsman's report to remind ourselves

that was extremely critical of the police service of Northern Ireland had,

uh, been leaked to these journalists who had reported it as something

that's entirely in the public interest.

Jane: Yes.

So, so all of this effort and resource and so forth of the police who, who clearly

have no crimes whatsoever to investigate in Northern Ireland, besides this was, was

all about protecting police reputation.

This.

You know, this was all about who was passed information on about

how badly police had handled the Rocking Island murder investigation.

Adam: Essentially.

It sounds a lot like the, uh, the, the police put an awful lot of effort

into protecting potential killers who did tell them things and going after

journalists, who wouldn't tell 'em stuff.

Is that, is that a kind of summary?

Jane: Yes.

the, uh, review that was published, a fortnight ago among it's, it

reveals many more journalists, all of whom were investigating things

that like, um, police corruption and police collusion and relations with

the UVF and all that kind of thing.

some lawyers who have also sort of represented the other side in cases where,

for instance, victims' families have sued the police and that kind of thing.

So these are all the people who the, the police were surveilling.

Adam: And that seems to be like enormous numbers, doesn't it?

Because one extraordinary detail that came out ahead of the case, which the two

journalists brought at the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, and I should just, um,

tell listeners exactly what that is.

They, they basically are an independent body which provides the right of

redress to anyone who believes they've been the victim of unlawful

action by a public authority using convert investigation techniques.

But that includes MI five, MI six, and GCHQ.

So pretty, sort of wide ranging powers there.

There were several other parties who applied to be part of this

case, uh, including the BBC and the National Union of Journalists.

Um, and lawyers for MI five and GCHQ at that point argued that actually they held

so much material on BBC journalists in Northern Ireland that they simply didn't

have the time or the necessary staff to go through all of that information ahead

of when the tribunal was scheduled for.

Jane: Uh, that's right.

So there are more tribunals, covering things like BBC journalists coming up,

um, separately and in, in relation to, uh.

BBC journalist, Vincent Kearney, both police and MI five have admitted certainly

that they have his phone records.

Now, not, that's not the contents of the conversations, it's it's the who

he called and who called him records.

But that's hugely useful if you're trying to work out who a journalist sources are.

Adam: And as a journalist, this is sort of quite terrifying.

I mean, the idea, I mean, we do take, um, source protection extremely

seriously, but actually in most cases, you are not reporting on.

Cases of, uh, violent killers.

I mean, the retribution potential for if your sources are given away

to anyone in, in, in stories like this is, terrifying, isn't it?

Jane: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, so yeah, so much of these, these cases sort of relate to, um,

the sort of paramilitary and gang violence in, in Northern Ireland.

These are not people that you want, um, to get on the wrong side of,

Ian: And The idea is it's the police who are looking into your sources, but the

police are the people being accused of collaborating with the very bad people.

Um, and therefore might well give your information to the very

bad people that is, is worrying.

Adam: It is all slightly reminiscent of, uh, as we were saying, the, um, ITV

drama, the hack, or at least half of the hack, uh, which, um, I understood

ahead of, uh, its transmission was gonna be the story of how Nick Davies

uncovered, uh, phone hacking at the news of the world for the Guardian.

In fact, half of it turned out to be a completely separate program and

really oddly, sort of episode two, I thought, hang on, I've, I, I, I've,

I've clicked on the wrong thing here because it was totally different.

And to be, to tell a completely different story,

Jane: I, I've tuned into a police drama by mistake.

Yeah.

Yes.

Adam: it was bizarre.

Um, uh, yeah, so it, it was, uh, in fact both halves of the drama, the

hack are kind of stories that the, the, the I has followed on and off

over many, many years, if not decades.

Um, so the, the other half that wasn't about, specifically about Nick Davis

and phone hacking, uh, was about the many police investigations into the

murder of private Detective Daniel Morgan in South London in 1987.

Uh, and specifically the role of Dave Cook, uh, a police officer who.

I gotta say it came out slightly less heroic in the

eyes coverage in over the years.

Jane, tell us a bit about, uh, about Dave Cook and his involvement

in the Daniel Morgan case.

Jane: So, um, he's a detective, chief superintendent, so

quite a senior detective.

so he took on.

The investigation, I think it was the fifth reinvestigation of the case.

Um, so he was sort of brought in to have another go at trying to, to find

out who had killed private investigator Daniel Morgan, an ax murder, which

was a number of suspects involved in, um, sort of organized crime.

his investigation, resulted.

this does, has not, so far in the episodes I've seen, has, does not come

out at all resulted in both a, a high court case and an appeal court case,

um, in which it emerged that he had coached witnesses, for their evidence.

And, um.

Essentially this, uh, created a massive risk of a miscarriage of justice.

And, um, the high court upheld that this was, um, misfeasance in public office,

and the appeal court later concluded that it was, uh, malicious prosecution.

so the, the risks of, um, miscarriages of justice when police officers do

that kind of thing are very high.

Adam: Yeah.

It resulted in the collapse of the trial that, uh, that they were hoping to

bring in 2011, uh, and as you say, um, and actually a payout for, um, of, of

more than half a million pounds to the, the people who recused of involvement

in the murder of Daniel Morgan.

and the, the case remains even after these five police investigations

and a large independent, um, report on it in more recent years.

Unsolved officially.

It is a fascinating case 'cause it does touch on a whole axis of corruption within

the police, uh, particularly in South London, which also it has kind of like

tendrils that go into the whole debacle over the Stephen Lawrence murder our

late colleague Paul Foot looked an awful lot into, uh, into what was going on

around various police stations in South London and their involvement with, uh,

involvement of various officers with, uh, corrupt kind of gang land figures There.

it's also got massive tendrils, which you know, is what the thing

that connected it in the drama, uh, to, uh, fleet Street as well.

What was Fleet Street?

Um, both the news of the world 1 senior journalist there, Alex Murran Murch, was

involved in, uh, putting surveillance on Dave Cook's family that's depicted in

the drama, uh, but also the daily mirror.

As well.

Um, famously, uh, the, a lot of the police tapes and police bugs picked up

journalists going in and having a chat with, uh, Daniel Morgan's associate,

John Reese Southern Investigations, the company he ran, uh, including, um,

Gary Jones, who, uh, went on to become until quite recently, the daily editor

of The Daily Express, discussing with Jonathan Re was sitting, listening to

Jonathan Reese describe how what they were up to was very, very illegal.

So, um, there are.

It is the most extraordinary case, which so far no one has got entirely

to, to, to the bottom of, the, uh, commissioner of Met Police, I just

say, Mark Riley refused to accept the finding of the independent panel that

looked into the various investigations into the Daniel Morgan murder, that

his force was institutionally corrupt.

Um, just as he did the findings, Louise Casey, who ran an inquiry

following the murder of Sarai Everard.

By a, uh, serving met officer, uh, that the met was institutionally

racist, misogynistic, and homophobic.

All of this, of course, ahead of last week's panorama, which went into

Charing Cross Police Station with some secret filming to prove that that does

pretty much appear to be the case.

Ian: this applies to so many institutions, it's a default position.

You are criticized, you say This institution is really important.

The church, the police, the B, BC, the NHS.

It's so important that we continue our good work that we must shut up everyone

who says we're not doing good work

Jane: now.

Ian: You can see people falling into this, and for some reason,

Paula Nels comes straight into mind.

This is the most blatant case of it.

Uh, the post office is very, very important.

We must defend the brand and the, if the police do it, it's really dangerous.

I mean, it's pretty dangerous when anyone does it, but for them to devote this much

time to what is essentially, uh, revenge.

Um, for bad publicity, it's not really lessons learned.

It's not, uh, we must, you know, sort of make sure things are going better.

It's just saying, uh, we don't like this.

We are gonna get our own back.

And that, I mean, you know, does the police know good at all?

Jane: And of course Paulas was also one of the shortlisted candidates

to be Bishop of London back in, um.

2018 when, um, Sarai Mulally was, uh, eventually selected for the post.

So we could be looking at Archbishop Paula now.

Adam: Wow,

Ian: the Daniel Morgan episode in the hack, which was, I mean,

I've, I've read all the pieces.

All of you have written about this for a long time and

understood only some of them.

I mean, it is an unbelievably complex case.

but I felt there, the fact that it was suddenly the news of the world spying

on a policeman, I know it was there to demonstrate that they basically

were out of control, the press and spied on everybody and thought they

were above the law, literally above the police and above everyone else.

But for me it confused what was the drift of, Nick Davis investigation,

which was simpler to follow and ended up with various people from the Murdoch

organization going to jail, and Mr.

Murdoch having to sit there and have a custody by friend at him, which

seems to me the big point of the story, but that, that may be just me.

Adam: I mean, it did have extraordinary details which were

taken directly from real life.

I mean, the, the fact that when, um, uh, Dave Cook, uh, went in to talk to

Rebecca Brooks, then editor of the News of the World about, the surveillance

that had been put on his family, the excuse being by the way that they

thought he was having an affair with the Crime watch presenter, Jackie

Hammes, to whom he had been married for

Jane: quite some years by

Adam: point, so not the most convincing excuse.

She did go directly from that, escorted by, uh, the Mets head of communication.

And Dick Fedor to a reception with the Met Commissioner, which does

sort of slightly suggest some fairly cozy relationships there, doesn't it?

Ian: That was a fine bit of the drama.

I thought the, the portrayal of Rebecca Brooks as a

misunderstood and innocent woman

Adam: absolutely,

Ian: I thought was top

Adam: How else could you possibly portray it, Ian?

Ian: I think it's worth pointing out that the Nick Davis' book,

which he's rewritten, is that right?

Jane: He

Adam: has, he's added an extra chapter on, uh, new investigations into what he says,

uh, is evidence of corporate hacking.

So specifically by management, uh, at, uh, at News International as it was to

try and interfere with kind of political decisions which were being taken over the

proposed takeover of Sky at that point.

And I think

Ian: that stuff is very interesting too, just in terms of a less

confusing narrative and it's, it's slightly more, it's moved it on.

Adam: It's certainly peaking the interest of lawyers at News International who

has revealed a couple of issues back, have been sending out warning letters to

anyone who might think about reviewing that book or saying anything about it.

Oddly enough, we have said something about that book.

We didn't get the letter, so there you go.

Keep reading private eye.

Now as promised, Helen Lewis is off on her travels in the States, but Andrew

Hunter Murray wasn't having a slack off on her podcast duties just 'cause of that.

So he's caught up with her to talk about Donald Trump's recent alarming claims

around autism, paracetamol, or Tylenol as it's known in the US and pregnant women.

Uh, they kicked off by talking about one of the offshoots of maga,

the alphabetically adjacent Maha.

Here's Helen.

Here's

Helen: Maha is Make America healthy again.

And it's probably gonna turn out to be one of the most consequential

parts of the Trump agenda.

Now, let's be brutal about what Trump has managed to achieve so

far is a lot of destroying things.

Uh, would I say that was the kind of thing that's the, the

main outcome of Doge, right?

Is that they just cut a lot of programs, particularly in, um, overseas aid.

Whether or not they're good at building new things that they

do, like remains to be seen.

And Maha is a very good example of that.

So, it is currently being led, the Department of Health and Human

Services by Robert f Kennedy Jr.

Now, as the name suggests, he's the son of the original Bobby Kennedy.

Brother of JFK, and then, you know, from a lifelong democratic family,

he's both a lifelong environmental campaigner and a lifelong, well, pretty

much lifelong, um, vaccine skeptic.

and, you know, he has a variety of, I would say pseudo-scientific

views on a number of things.

And in his position.

in control of the Health Department of America, he is able to do

things like change the vaccine schedules, change the collection

of data, all of that kind of stuff.

The, you know, I think might have very severe consequences for

infectious disease in America.

Andy: When you say vaccine schedules, is that who gets it?

How many are dished out?

What is that?

Helen: It's a recommendations on basically what childhood vaccines there should be.

You know, he's, he's making the COVID vaccines harder to get, and now that's,

you know, that's something that's kind of debatable about what this

kind of schedule for those should be.

And, but childhood vaccines are.

know, to the scientific community a much less, uh, controversial topic, right?

We just simply know that there are children alive today who wouldn't

be because they got the MMR vaccine.

Look at the rates of that.

but he is, you know, he's, he's very worried.

Um, he's is deeply steeped in vaccine skepticism and he basically got rid of

the panel at the center of a disease control, the CDC that is in charge of

the kind of vaccine recommendations and stuffed it with people who are

much more of his point of view.

Andy: It's interesting hearing about this from a British perspective because I think

in the UK a lot of government ministers or cabinet ministers even are people

without a specific ax to grind in the area that they're given the portfolio for.

Barring maybe the exception of, ed Miller Band, who's, you know, like

did climate and energy last time and is doing it again this time and

has been doing a lot in between.

you know, Heidi Alexander hasn't been banging the drum for better bus

provision for 30 years and has now finally been given the transport brief.

So it's quite weird hearing about this from the RFK side of things.

Helen: Yeah.

And that's a reflection of really the unique way that he

ended up in this administration.

So, uh, you know, the Kennedys are the, the big democratic Catholic

family, you know, and he ran initially for president as a Democrat.

And so there's this very funny dynamic where quite a lot of oppo research

dump came out in, you know, uh, the spring of last year, which was.

You know, designed to kind of, um, tank him essentially.

Because what happened at that point was that he was edging

towards the Republicans.

So the Republicans loved him running as a Democrat because they thought

the Kennedy name was gonna kind of draw support away from Joe Biden.

and then suddenly, hang on a minute.

No, he's edging towards, he didn't get on the ballot as a Democrat.

He's an independent, uh oh.

Actually.

What do people who hate vaccines normally vote for?

That's us, the Republicans.

This might be a problem.

And then so you start seeing this mad spate of stories after

hearing lots of stuff about his great environmental, uh, activism.

Suddenly you got to hear a lot of stories about, there's this time where he think,

we think he might have eaten a dog.

He says It was a goat, I should clarify for the record.

And then, and a further revolution happened, at which point Trump

realized how great it would be to be able to have a Kennedy on his ticket.

To say, people say, I'm incredibly extreme and right wing, look at

me, I'm reaching across the aisle.

I've got a Kennedy.

And you know, somebody said that to me when I was, um, canvassing in

Pennsylvania for people's opinions and ahead of the last election.

They said, well, you know, he's, you know, he's got a broad

church, he's got a Kennedy,

Andy: You are not a good Kennedy, like

Helen: He's got very much one of the,

Andy: the

Helen: less good Kennedys.

Yeah, I mean.

There's quite a few fairly rogue Kennedys.

but yeah, anyway, but so this was, this was the point.

He had a great value to, to Trump as a kind of fig leaf.

And actually, you know what, he was very popular with that kind of Rogan

sphere, as I often call it, you know, the podcast sphere, because what is

the podcast that bit of the Trump friendly podcast sphere funded by?

So crypto, which is, you know, money without regulation and supplements,

which is medicine without regulation.

And so if you want to find, you know, m. Pseudo alternatives to sunscreens,

or you want to hear discussions of like what, testosterone replacement

therapy, which is something that, um, Kennedy has spoken about.

It's why he says he can still do a pull up at sev, you know, in his

seventies, all of that kind of stuff.

Then he was very friendly with that kind of Establishment

skeptic, bit of the podcast sphere.

Uh, and some of it is, you know, just take a few vitamins and eat a bit better.

And, uh, some of it's avoid seed oils, which is kind of neutral.

And some of it's, you know, maybe the MMR vaccine causes autism,

which is debunked and untrue.

So, you know, he, he had, he brought a great asset to the

Trump team and as a result, he got the portfolio that he wanted.

Right.

He was, that, he's like, that was what he was always gonna get.

His environmental views would not have sat very well.

Right.

If he'd been given Ed Milliman's portfolio, he might've said.

You know, we should stop polluting the rivers.

And that would've been quite an unpopular thing to say.

But in the, you know, in the, in the context of the current movement,

his skepticism of traditional medicine is, is absolutely on

brand for the Trump administration.

Andy: So one point that you've made is that the Trump administration,

the first one for all its legions of faults and corruption and, and goodness

knows what else did actually produce COVID vaccines, but he was unable

to boast about it because so many of his supporters don't like jabs.

Helen: Yeah, there was a really funny movement in the, um, in the hearing.

So, RFK Jr was in front of a, a senate committee hearing, you

know, being kind of scrutinized.

And Louisiana Republican, bill Cassidy, who provided the, casting, deciding

vote on his confirmation in this role.

Right.

is obviously now feeling that he's been sold a pup as well.

He might, because RFK

Andy: a goat or a

Helen: or a goat.

The Boulogne structure is very similar.

you can't tell from the picture of it barbecued, uh, at all.

Anyway, so, you know, he, he, he, he's obviously shown a bit of buyer's

remorse, and so he asked RFK Junior if he thought Donald Trump deserved a Nobel

Prize for operation warp speed, which is, you said, was the, the government

program to develop a COVID vaccine.

And Rogen went a, you know, absolutely.

And then Cassidy's follow up question was, well, how have you just told us that?

The quotes, the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID, right?

So the Maha position is now both that Donald Trump is an absolute legend for

having invented the COVID vaccine, but also the COVID vaccine killed people,

Andy: Yeah, it's quite, it's two quite distant planks to straddle, isn't it?

Helen: and he's the man to straddle them because his, as I say, his muscle tone

from man in his seventies is exemplary.

Andy: So he is making it harder to get vaccines, not just the COVID ones,

but childhood vaccines, things like vaccinating children against measles.

And I believe that is starting to yield results, isn't it?

Helen: this is why there's a real worry about it because I

have already been, um, the first.

Measles deaths in the US for, for quite a long time, for about a decade.

And that happened in a Mennonite community, so a very

closed religious community.

And those are, you know, communities that have traditionally been very

skeptical of, of vaccines anyway, um, and traditional medicine.

And, you know, it's too simplistic to attribute that because, you know, they.

The administration had only been in place for a certain amount of

time, but I think you can certainly say that the, prominence of vaccine

skepticism on large parts of the right and bits of the left, what you might

call the kind of crunchy left, right.

There's a lot of kind of people who do yoga who also think

the body can heal itself.

that, you know, it's not a. Purely partisan view.

I'm sure that has contributed to, a culture of suspicion

of medicine essentially.

yeah, and then we always, I, I, I've read today as well that in the US

some rabies cases have also gone up, so make rabies great again.

Andy: Good Lord.

I know that you have to go through a confirmation hearing.

You mentioned earlier one of the Republicans who.

Confirmed him, uh, to, to be approved for your seat or, or you know, the role

you've got in cabinet, whatever it is.

Was it close with Kennedy?

Helen: Yeah, it was, it required a, certain amount of, of brow beating,

of a couple of Republican senators who were really reluctant to pass him.

Um, and the senate's very finely divided, right?

So a couple of votes, one way or the other would've been decisive.

and there was a. A really substantial push by the Trump administration to get

him in post, because essentially that was the bargain that had made right.

Like, switch to supporting us and we'll give you health.

and it's a shame because immediately what happened, he also appointed his

own director of the CDC, Susan Menez.

She lasted 29 days before they fell out.

and even in that time, in her first week in the job, a gunman turned

up at some CDC offices in Atlanta.

Um, sprayed of 500 rounds and the gunman's rationale was, I've been

driven to be feeling suicidal because of the COVID vaccine.

So you can already see where the strengths of feeling that there is

about the fact that, you know, the COVID vaccine was a lie or it was

implementing with microchips, or it was part of some, you know, sinister plot.

Like those are all widely held views on some.

Bits of the Maha, right.

And they're real world consequences.

And, and so Menari has quit along with a load of other senior

officials, just essentially saying, you're destroying the CDC.

their job is going to be harder, because, you know, they, they're running uphill

basically against an administration that thinks that they're kind of corrupt and,

and unscientific, and they've covered up the, the downsides of vaccines.

Andy: Wait, they think these guys are on scientific.

Helen: They think the CDC are un scientific and, and one of their,

um, kind of prime ways that they've demonstrated this is that the CDC changed

all of its advice to be gender neutral.

So it would say like, it, its advice on pregnancy would refer entirely

on to pregnant people, for example.

And this is part of the kind of Trump, line, which is essentially like, these

people don't even know what a woman is.

Why would you trust them with any kind of scientific advice and I, and to an

outsider, I think that kind of seems.

Kind of loopy, right?

These are two very, like a, a, a linguistic tweak is very different to

like the question of whether or not a vaccine has side effects, which is

something you can empirically establish.

But it is part of the, the way that gender and the left has

been used to delegitimize, like left wing authority basically.

And that for, for some parts of the right is a really potent message to them.

Andy: now Helen, as you know, I'm a parochial list.

I care principally about British politics.

Is there a sign that this vaccine stuff is making its way over

Helen: Uh, I'm,

Andy: or are we inoculated against it?

Helen: Oh yeah.

Nice.

Very

nice.

I, I think it's harder because of the position of the the

BBC and OFCOM regulation.

I can't think of any of the.

Major newspapers that are really, I mean, you know, the, I think they're also still

feeling slightly scorched over MMR in the way that they were misled over that right.

As indeed private eye was at at the time.

So I think there's a, was more of a reluctance to go

there on vaccine stuff online.

I'm sure lots of Britains who get all their news from Facebook are absolutely

drowning in anti-vaccine sentiment.

But the other thing is, you know, like the classic phrase about American

politics, which is like American.

Sneezes and Britain catches a cold, well, America sneezes

because an American's got bird flu.

Then that person gets on a plane, then Britain very much could catch that cold.

Right.

This is the, thing is that you know, we had one pandemic, we're still overdue.

A flu pandemic.

It's really important that you can trust global health authorities.

you know, one of the things, big problems with COVID was the feeling of

like, is any of the data that's coming outta China even vaguely reliable?

I think there are now similar questions about a lot of the health data that's

coming out of America, as well as that agency's ability to like, go

to the poultry farm, do the testing, work out what strain it is, is it

actually anything to be worried about?

Right?

All of that kind of stuff.

I think that.

Ability is being eroded.

And it's a real shame because actually on the other side of it, some of what

RFK JR was saying is really basic.

Like, have you considered eating a vegetable?

I hear they're good.

Right?

And when Michelle Obama did it, they were like, oh, I don't need to be

told what to do by Michelle Obama.

But actually like the idea that you should go to the gym and eat right.

Is a message that America with its obesity crisis and its

incredibly unworkable places to live, could really do with hearing.

So there's a kind of great tragedy about RFK Junior that, that, you know,

there's a lot of kook there, but there's also, you know, some quite basic advice

that is probably quite good for people.

and meanwhile, America has multiple, you know, terrible health crises

that I don't suspect that this CDC and this health department and RFK

Junior are gonna be able to have a lot of hef to do something about.

Adam: That was Helen Lewis and, uh, thanks to Andy.

, Ian, I should just say, coming off the back of that, Helen mentioned

in passing, Private eye did have a role in, uh, the MMR controversy and

connections to autism, didn't it?

In the past.

Ian: Yes.

Nice Helen to bring up my, uh, not finest hour.

Yes, the early MMR coverage in the eye was wrong.

we accepted, the findings of Wakefield's first study, as did the lance.

And there were, uh, various other voices, but we were essentially wrong

to stay with it and wrong to stay questioning it and ran a, a mayor cul.

the

person who was right in this was Phil Hammond, our current

MD, who said, no, this is wrong.

And he was right.

Adam: And that's it for this episode

of

page nine four, the Private Eye Podcast.

If you want to read more about, uh, the cases we've been discussing

and many, many more, which will be popping up for years to come.

Then, uh, get yourself, first of all a copy of the magazine, uh, and

if you like what you see, then get yourself a subscription as well.

It's incredibly reasonably priced.

thank you to Jane Mackenzie.

Thank you to Ian Hislop.

Thank you to Helen Lewis and Andrew Hunter Murray.

And thank you to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing as ever, uh, until

the next time, in a fortnight, goodbye.