1 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:03,150 Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast. 2 00:00:03,713 --> 00:00:06,113 Adam: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94. 3 00:00:06,113 --> 00:00:08,700 I'm Adam McQueen, and I'm joined in the Private Eye Office today by Ian 4 00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:10,890 Hislop and Jane McKenzie, but fear not. 5 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:13,710 Later in the episode, we'll be hearing from both of our other regulars, Helen 6 00:00:13,710 --> 00:00:16,860 Lewis and Andrew Hunter Murray, who are gonna be talking about President Trump 7 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,280 and his health secretary, RFK Junior, and they're slightly peculiar ideas 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:21,690 about how to make America healthy again. 9 00:00:22,530 --> 00:00:24,930 But first the three of us are gonna be discussing some of the 10 00:00:24,930 --> 00:00:27,450 stories from the last issue, uh, specifically police bugging of 11 00:00:27,450 --> 00:00:30,870 journalists, both in Northern Ireland and on our tellies courtesy of ITV. 12 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,900 And, um, some of the things that have happened since our last edition came out 13 00:00:34,140 --> 00:00:38,670 specifically, we finally, after 11 months, have a new Archbishop of Canterbury. 14 00:00:38,670 --> 00:00:38,970 Ian, 15 00:00:39,345 --> 00:00:42,315 Ian: I thought you were gonna say finally, after thousands of years, 16 00:00:42,315 --> 00:00:46,425 we have a female Archbishop of Canterbury, which is is certainly news, 17 00:00:46,620 --> 00:00:50,160 Adam: 1,428 years since Saint Augustine to go. 18 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:50,400 Yeah. 19 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,610 The first woman in the role, specifically, she is Sarai Mul, 20 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:55,200 formerly the Bishop of London. 21 00:00:55,410 --> 00:00:58,380 And before that, in, I mean, by any measure, is an impressive LinkedIn 22 00:00:58,380 --> 00:01:00,330 page, chief nurse in the NHS. 23 00:01:00,390 --> 00:01:00,930 That's not bad. 24 00:01:00,930 --> 00:01:02,370 Is it for two positions, Jane? 25 00:01:02,655 --> 00:01:06,765 Jane: Also from a, a comprehensive school background, which, uh, I don't think 26 00:01:07,005 --> 00:01:09,375 the latest few, uh, bishops have been, 27 00:01:09,488 --> 00:01:09,608 Adam: Uh, 28 00:01:09,608 --> 00:01:10,868 but it is an extraordinary achievement, isn't it? 29 00:01:10,868 --> 00:01:14,378 I mean, women priests were first ordained in, uh, the Church of England in 1994. 30 00:01:14,378 --> 00:01:16,688 They could only become bishops from 2014. 31 00:01:17,108 --> 00:01:20,618 Uh, so Mal became Bishop of London, which effectively the third in command 32 00:01:20,618 --> 00:01:21,578 of the Church of England, isn't it? 33 00:01:21,578 --> 00:01:24,815 It's after the archbishops of Canterbury and York Um, 34 00:01:24,815 --> 00:01:27,545 remind us, Ian, why did Justin Wellbe her predecessor? 35 00:01:27,545 --> 00:01:29,045 Why was he obliged to step down? 36 00:01:29,370 --> 00:01:33,660 Ian: Well, he had an unfortunate argument with someone at a drinks party at the 37 00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:36,480 British Museum and he just had to go. 38 00:01:36,750 --> 00:01:37,255 Uh oh. 39 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:37,500 Jane: think 40 00:01:37,535 --> 00:01:39,730 Adam: we may be getting the timing slightly wrong on that one. 41 00:01:40,915 --> 00:01:41,335 Ian: Oh yes, 42 00:01:41,430 --> 00:01:42,360 that was afterwards. 43 00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:44,670 Uh, no self-regarding nonsense. 44 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:49,290 He had to leave quite rightly 'cause he'd been, , involved in one of the major. 45 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,811 Scandals in, in the Church of England, about, his connection with a, really 46 00:01:53,811 --> 00:01:58,946 horrific serial abuser called, John Smythe, who'd run, uh, various 47 00:01:58,946 --> 00:02:03,001 Christian camps and had had various, connections with Wellbe over the years. 48 00:02:03,271 --> 00:02:06,541 And we'd written about it at some length, particularly Jane had. 49 00:02:06,671 --> 00:02:06,752 Adam: I 50 00:02:06,752 --> 00:02:07,232 should say 51 00:02:07,232 --> 00:02:07,712 for podcast. 52 00:02:07,712 --> 00:02:08,552 Listen, actually, um, 53 00:02:08,552 --> 00:02:12,692 If you do want the full story, um, if you go back to episode one, uh, 126 of page 54 00:02:12,692 --> 00:02:16,532 94, uh, which we recorded last November, France Ween, uh, joined us to discuss 55 00:02:16,532 --> 00:02:18,992 the John Smythe case in, um, in depth. 56 00:02:19,322 --> 00:02:22,952 Essentially it was John Smith was an evangelical Christian who ran these. 57 00:02:23,002 --> 00:02:27,428 Camps around the country for young people, but also turned out to be 58 00:02:27,428 --> 00:02:30,338 sadistically beating young men in a shed at the end of his garden. 59 00:02:30,374 --> 00:02:32,924 Jane: Uh, that's a summary of the, of the beginning of the story. 60 00:02:32,958 --> 00:02:38,967 after, some people found out, um, what was was going on, he was, Moved a long, 61 00:02:38,967 --> 00:02:43,377 long way away from, uh, where he could be a problem for senior people at the, 62 00:02:43,377 --> 00:02:48,537 the Church of England off, off to, to Africa So, the fact that he was, he 63 00:02:48,537 --> 00:02:51,021 was just sort of exported to, carry on. 64 00:02:51,081 --> 00:02:54,523 Behaving dreadfully, was another big part of the scandal. 65 00:02:54,933 --> 00:02:58,173 Adam: was one of the many figures in the church who was found out to have, 66 00:02:58,173 --> 00:03:02,253 um, kind of connived in this, this, this relocation rather than actually 67 00:03:02,253 --> 00:03:04,863 attempting to tackle the problem. 68 00:03:05,017 --> 00:03:05,317 Ian: Yes. 69 00:03:05,317 --> 00:03:09,637 And he, he, it turned out he'd sent him a Christmas card and he'd supported 70 00:03:09,637 --> 00:03:15,137 the mission and all of these things didn't quite chime with the, suggestion 71 00:03:15,137 --> 00:03:16,517 that he knew nothing about it. 72 00:03:16,607 --> 00:03:20,730 And, he had no links to, um, this figure previous to. 73 00:03:20,990 --> 00:03:22,340 When he first heard about him. 74 00:03:22,430 --> 00:03:25,790 And so there was a great deal of argument about, um, safeguarding 75 00:03:25,790 --> 00:03:29,798 in the church, whether the head of the C of E could actually continue, 76 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:33,459 in his posters, head of the Church of England when the safeguarding 77 00:03:33,459 --> 00:03:35,357 had completely failed, with SM and, 78 00:03:35,904 --> 00:03:39,733 and more and more cases kept turning up of repeated failures 79 00:03:39,883 --> 00:03:43,961 with other priests, with other, uh, lay people in various positions. 80 00:03:44,201 --> 00:03:49,451 And eventually he decided very reluctantly that he had to go 81 00:03:49,774 --> 00:03:52,054 and he left with no grace at all. 82 00:03:52,232 --> 00:03:55,262 Even after he'd been criticized for being graceless, he stood up in the 83 00:03:55,262 --> 00:03:59,372 House of Lords and basically said, well, you know, the main victim in the 84 00:03:59,372 --> 00:04:01,172 whole thing was his diary secretary. 85 00:04:01,202 --> 00:04:05,702 'cause you know, she had to rearrange stuff, which was unbelievably tone 86 00:04:05,702 --> 00:04:10,214 deaf and various, other bishops sat around laughing, but the one 87 00:04:10,214 --> 00:04:14,534 who didn't and covered her face in her hands was Sarai Muli, 88 00:04:14,914 --> 00:04:16,234 Adam: who now takes over the job. 89 00:04:16,306 --> 00:04:16,625 Ian: and I think. 90 00:04:16,965 --> 00:04:21,075 Maybe as a basic requirement for the job, finding your predecessor 91 00:04:21,075 --> 00:04:23,865 cringe Work worthy is pretty good. 92 00:04:24,171 --> 00:04:27,141 Adam: I mean the, the ongoing safeguarding issues around the church with, there was 93 00:04:27,141 --> 00:04:28,731 an awful lot of them still, still ongoing. 94 00:04:28,791 --> 00:04:31,701 Um, that's presumably part of the reason why it's taken a full 11 95 00:04:31,701 --> 00:04:33,411 months to appoint a successor. 96 00:04:33,651 --> 00:04:35,631 I mean, the, the, the Catholic Church managed two day 97 00:04:35,631 --> 00:04:36,771 papal conclave, didn't they? 98 00:04:36,771 --> 00:04:37,246 So, um, 99 00:04:37,701 --> 00:04:38,331 Jane: That's right. 100 00:04:38,391 --> 00:04:43,461 Um, in order to, uh, appoint an archbishop for the, um, church of England, uh, the 101 00:04:43,461 --> 00:04:47,271 first thing you have to do is appoint the panel that that does the appointing. 102 00:04:47,601 --> 00:04:51,741 Uh, and they did have a great deal of difficulty putting together a panel, 103 00:04:52,041 --> 00:04:56,661 um, because of the number of, um, various sort of bishops and senior 104 00:04:56,661 --> 00:05:01,041 figures who also are sort of dealing with the fallout from their own 105 00:05:01,041 --> 00:05:03,231 safeguarding scandals, where within. 106 00:05:03,276 --> 00:05:09,096 Various different diocese seas, they have also failed to investigate or 107 00:05:09,096 --> 00:05:13,206 sort of, sort of done belated or poor investigations or coverups. 108 00:05:13,566 --> 00:05:17,556 Um, so there were multiple people who you would've expected to have 109 00:05:17,556 --> 00:05:21,996 been on that panel who, who stepped aside or sort of had to be replaced. 110 00:05:23,115 --> 00:05:23,561 Mulally's 111 00:05:23,586 --> 00:05:25,536 Adam: record like on sort of safeguarding issues? 112 00:05:26,506 --> 00:05:30,256 Jane: So, um, Malawi certainly has experience of stepping into 113 00:05:30,256 --> 00:05:33,706 the leadership of an organization that's in a terrible mess, uh, 114 00:05:33,706 --> 00:05:35,476 safeguarding and leadership wise. 115 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:40,996 When she first started as Bishop of London, the London Diocese 116 00:05:41,026 --> 00:05:43,516 was in a, a, a shocking state. 117 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:44,290 in fact. 118 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,830 When she first arrived and started trying to impose some kind of organization and 119 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:54,660 governance and appropriate systems, um, there were some significant figures who 120 00:05:54,660 --> 00:05:59,040 quit, such as the head of operations there, a man called Martin Sergeant. 121 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:05,280 Uh, now that's, it's not a good sign when somebody quits that, uh, because there's 122 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:07,230 an attempt to sort of clean things up. 123 00:06:07,485 --> 00:06:11,765 It turned out that he had defrauded a Church of England, um, charitable 124 00:06:11,765 --> 00:06:14,075 fund by about 5 million pounds. 125 00:06:14,086 --> 00:06:14,096 Adam: pounds. 126 00:06:15,260 --> 00:06:15,680 Wow. 127 00:06:16,205 --> 00:06:16,625 Jane: Yes. 128 00:06:16,790 --> 00:06:17,750 Ian: he's now in prison. 129 00:06:18,013 --> 00:06:22,633 our readers will know much of the history of Mr. Sergeant's, um, uh, 130 00:06:22,633 --> 00:06:27,133 desire to spend the church's money on gambling and on holidays and in 131 00:06:27,133 --> 00:06:29,713 living, um, quite a high lifestyle. 132 00:06:29,833 --> 00:06:30,793 So, um. 133 00:06:31,288 --> 00:06:36,028 The fact that he quit, uh, the minute someone new came in who wanted to have 134 00:06:36,028 --> 00:06:41,038 a look at things, um, was not a, not a great sign about the mess that was there. 135 00:06:41,368 --> 00:06:46,198 And then the mess got even worse when he on leaving delivered. 136 00:06:46,688 --> 00:06:51,488 , What was called a brain dump of information, which turned out to be a 137 00:06:51,488 --> 00:06:55,968 lot of gossip and a lot of, , secondhand and unfounded rumor about all the 138 00:06:55,968 --> 00:07:01,398 priests and all the people, , in London, , who he'd sort of vaguely known. 139 00:07:01,698 --> 00:07:07,358 And the, , Bishop of London who came in Sarai, Mulally had then 140 00:07:07,718 --> 00:07:10,718 to cope with, what do I do? 141 00:07:11,803 --> 00:07:14,863 With all this information, information in inverted commas. 142 00:07:14,863 --> 00:07:14,953 Mm-hmm. 143 00:07:15,373 --> 00:07:20,293 Um, and there was a, a huge amount of criticism of the way, um, this 144 00:07:20,293 --> 00:07:24,103 was handled, particularly after one priest committed suicide. 145 00:07:24,153 --> 00:07:28,923 , Jane: So, uh, father Alan Griffin, um, took his own life after being subject to 146 00:07:28,923 --> 00:07:32,673 one of the safeguarding investigations triggered by the brain dump. 147 00:07:32,808 --> 00:07:37,188 and so it was a dreadful time for quite a lot of other, um, clergy 148 00:07:37,188 --> 00:07:41,078 who, , were included in this sort of roundup of brain dumped gossip. 149 00:07:41,512 --> 00:07:46,053 With sort of very little evidence of, of any actual, um, abuse 150 00:07:46,053 --> 00:07:48,123 happening in, in these cases. 151 00:07:48,933 --> 00:07:53,708 So, there was an inquest and, investigation into all of this and, 152 00:07:54,094 --> 00:07:59,308 Mulally's, response to, the end of all of this, uh, was that she gave an 153 00:07:59,308 --> 00:08:05,580 an unreserved apology for her part in having not sort of had, processes and 154 00:08:05,580 --> 00:08:07,560 support in place of people quickly. 155 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,740 Once, um, all these safeguarding investigations. 156 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:11,860 Got started. 157 00:08:12,310 --> 00:08:15,746 Well now that is, an interesting contrast to give an unreserved 158 00:08:15,746 --> 00:08:18,076 apology for, for her party little all, 159 00:08:18,152 --> 00:08:22,598 Ian: and I mean it's slightly ironic, that we now have, an Archie 160 00:08:22,598 --> 00:08:26,768 for Canterbury who was accused of over zealotry in trying to prevent 161 00:08:26,768 --> 00:08:29,258 abuse as opposed to under zealotry. 162 00:08:29,558 --> 00:08:30,668 In trying to prevent abuse. 163 00:08:30,668 --> 00:08:32,948 You, you essentially can't win in the Church of England. 164 00:08:33,188 --> 00:08:38,888 Um, but uh, she seems to be can't winning in a slightly more positive direction. 165 00:08:38,963 --> 00:08:42,923 Adam: It's, I would say it's another positive development after 1,428 years. 166 00:08:42,923 --> 00:08:43,433 Isn't it really? 167 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,220 Ian: there are still people who are critical of her for that. 168 00:08:46,566 --> 00:08:48,846 there are a number of other problems. 169 00:08:48,846 --> 00:08:49,476 She's a woman. 170 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:54,936 As you, you've, I think pointed out, um, and this is still a problem, um, 171 00:08:54,936 --> 00:08:59,142 in the Church of England, there's a, a group who don't, recognize women 172 00:08:59,142 --> 00:09:01,062 bishops, let alone women archbishops. 173 00:09:01,365 --> 00:09:03,945 She has to reconcile that as point number one. 174 00:09:04,605 --> 00:09:05,025 Um, 175 00:09:05,175 --> 00:09:07,005 Adam: I go for a really basic question here? 176 00:09:07,005 --> 00:09:09,525 Because what exactly is the job of Archbishop of Canterbury? 177 00:09:09,525 --> 00:09:10,755 It's not really one job, is it? 178 00:09:10,755 --> 00:09:12,705 And it's got very little to do with Canterbury, but it's, it's in 179 00:09:12,705 --> 00:09:14,145 fact several jobs, isn't it, Jake? 180 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:14,820 Jane: is. 181 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:17,670 And in fact, one of the jobs is to be bishop of Canterbury. 182 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:18,330 That's why. 183 00:09:18,615 --> 00:09:21,765 The Diocese of Canterbury gets sort of more of a say than any other 184 00:09:21,765 --> 00:09:23,685 diocese in, in the appointment. 185 00:09:24,075 --> 00:09:24,165 Right. 186 00:09:24,375 --> 00:09:30,436 The next tear up is to be the leader of the Church of England, 187 00:09:30,611 --> 00:09:32,176 primate of All England, primate 188 00:09:32,191 --> 00:09:34,051 Adam: primate so called Because you are the monkey to God's 189 00:09:34,051 --> 00:09:35,041 organ grinder, presumably. 190 00:09:36,691 --> 00:09:36,961 Ian: Yes. 191 00:09:36,961 --> 00:09:37,171 That's 192 00:09:37,636 --> 00:09:38,686 Jane: that's my Church of England Church. 193 00:09:40,096 --> 00:09:40,461 I'm here. 194 00:09:40,561 --> 00:09:40,771 Adam: week. 195 00:09:42,784 --> 00:09:47,734 Jane: Um, but the Church of England is not the, the sort of only part of what's 196 00:09:47,734 --> 00:09:50,351 called the Anglican communion, globally. 197 00:09:50,351 --> 00:09:54,307 So, there are Anglican churches all over the world. 198 00:09:54,491 --> 00:09:59,761 Ian: and the global Anglican communion is, Very divided by a number of issues, 199 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:03,560 between the conservative and the more liberal wings, the evangelicals and 200 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,860 the other wings, uh, a lot of the African churches in particular are 201 00:10:06,860 --> 00:10:12,393 not very keen on, the attitude to same sex couples, the attitude to women, 202 00:10:12,393 --> 00:10:14,343 bishops, and a number of other things. 203 00:10:14,343 --> 00:10:20,141 And there's an organization called Gafcon, which is the global Anglican Fellowship. 204 00:10:20,626 --> 00:10:24,136 And they greeted the appointment of this archbishop with sorrow. 205 00:10:24,616 --> 00:10:27,316 The Bishop of Rwanda in particular is, is not happy. 206 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:30,896 Adam: The Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans to give them their, 207 00:10:30,901 --> 00:10:32,066 uh, their, their, their full name. 208 00:10:32,066 --> 00:10:32,366 Yes. 209 00:10:32,576 --> 00:10:34,346 Um, they, they represent conservative churches, not just 210 00:10:34,346 --> 00:10:35,246 in Africa but Asia as well. 211 00:10:35,246 --> 00:10:37,361 They said they received the news from sorrow churches, South 212 00:10:37,361 --> 00:10:38,306 Africa dissented from that. 213 00:10:38,306 --> 00:10:40,436 Interestingly, they, they, they popped up and said they heartily 214 00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:42,386 welcomed Mulally as archbishop. 215 00:10:42,416 --> 00:10:46,856 But it is, it is a very odd job 'cause as you say, a large part of the global 216 00:10:46,856 --> 00:10:48,866 communion that she's now the head of. 217 00:10:49,151 --> 00:10:52,541 Do not recognize women priests or women bishops at all, do they? 218 00:10:52,811 --> 00:10:53,111 Jane: No. 219 00:10:53,111 --> 00:10:57,311 And in fact, they don't even recognize male bishops who've been 220 00:10:57,311 --> 00:11:02,051 ordained by women bishops 'cause they don't accept the ordaining 221 00:11:02,261 --> 00:11:04,211 worked if it was done by a woman. 222 00:11:04,406 --> 00:11:07,376 Ian: because it's not in the direct apostolic succession. 223 00:11:07,461 --> 00:11:08,001 Jane: That's right. 224 00:11:08,876 --> 00:11:10,166 Ian: I just thought I'd throw that in 225 00:11:11,361 --> 00:11:12,661 Adam: the direct apostolic de. 226 00:11:13,081 --> 00:11:14,861 You don't get that in every podcast, do you? 227 00:11:15,491 --> 00:11:15,781 Okay. 228 00:11:16,934 --> 00:11:20,615 Ian: Well, I tell you, I was reading the result of who had actually got the 229 00:11:20,615 --> 00:11:25,415 job and um, I was reading it in what had obviously been a quickly put together 230 00:11:25,415 --> 00:11:29,915 piece and halfway through it stopped saying Mulally and it said Beasley. 231 00:11:30,665 --> 00:11:35,285 And I thought, we haven't been told who the runner up is, but I think you have. 232 00:11:35,285 --> 00:11:38,075 And this is Bishop Beasley who is Bath and Wells 233 00:11:38,195 --> 00:11:40,625 Adam: i'd just say if you were Bishop Bothels, you'd probably wanna stick that. 234 00:11:40,655 --> 00:11:41,915 'cause he's got a lovely palace. 235 00:11:42,185 --> 00:11:44,165 That's the one with a moat where the swans come up to ring 236 00:11:44,165 --> 00:11:45,905 a bell when they want feeding. 237 00:11:46,175 --> 00:11:46,535 Ian: Right? 238 00:11:46,715 --> 00:11:46,835 Yeah. 239 00:11:47,045 --> 00:11:47,285 Okay. 240 00:11:47,330 --> 00:11:47,600 Jane: Well, 241 00:11:47,735 --> 00:11:48,185 Adam: country. 242 00:11:48,215 --> 00:11:49,505 Um, legend there. 243 00:11:49,505 --> 00:11:49,595 Ian: there. 244 00:11:49,655 --> 00:11:49,865 All 245 00:11:49,865 --> 00:11:52,985 I'm saying is there was a misprint and maybe they knew more than I 246 00:11:53,225 --> 00:11:54,305 Adam: Possibly, yes. 247 00:11:54,305 --> 00:11:56,645 Maybe, maybe next time Beasley, maybe you'll get lucky. 248 00:11:56,885 --> 00:11:59,705 We should point out also, there is another part to the job as well, which is that, 249 00:11:59,765 --> 00:12:03,575 uh, the arch of Canterbury, along with I think 26 other bishops also have seats 250 00:12:03,635 --> 00:12:05,195 in this country's parliament, don't they? 251 00:12:05,195 --> 00:12:05,975 In the House of Lords. 252 00:12:06,063 --> 00:12:06,273 Ian: they? 253 00:12:06,273 --> 00:12:06,423 do. 254 00:12:06,738 --> 00:12:09,228 Adam: That was of course where, well, we made his crass resignation speech. 255 00:12:09,283 --> 00:12:11,868 Uh, uh, uh, joking about his diary, diary secretary. 256 00:12:12,228 --> 00:12:15,378 Um, but it's very odd 'cause it is a political role. 257 00:12:15,378 --> 00:12:17,748 I mean, a literally political role in that sense. 258 00:12:17,748 --> 00:12:21,168 But, um, days prior to, uh, Sarai Milan's appointment, her predecessor, George 259 00:12:21,168 --> 00:12:23,178 Carey, made an extraordinary intervention. 260 00:12:23,178 --> 00:12:25,929 He did an interview with the Telegraph in which he said the archbishop, 261 00:12:25,959 --> 00:12:27,069 uh, the incoming archbishop. 262 00:12:27,364 --> 00:12:32,134 Should maintain a judicious silence on specific policies, uh, and said that the 263 00:12:32,134 --> 00:12:34,174 church had no more expertise than anyone. 264 00:12:34,174 --> 00:12:37,777 When it comes to the ins and outs of how we handle migration, for example, 265 00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:40,616 Ian: I think, um, the, the arch of Canterbury is meant to have 266 00:12:40,856 --> 00:12:45,386 views on morality and ethics, that being part of the point of it. 267 00:12:45,596 --> 00:12:50,576 And I think the engagement in politics, it always infuriates politicians. 268 00:12:50,696 --> 00:12:54,116 I mean, they're very keen to invoke religion when it suits them, but when 269 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:57,386 religious figures get involved in politics, even to say, I think this 270 00:12:57,386 --> 00:12:59,396 may be bad or good, may be wrong. 271 00:12:59,991 --> 00:13:03,081 Maybe against conscience, they get very, very upset by it. 272 00:13:03,441 --> 00:13:08,511 But as we all know, I mean, there, there is no way of escaping politics. 273 00:13:08,631 --> 00:13:10,281 Um, and particularly not at the moment. 274 00:13:10,461 --> 00:13:15,441 And she will have to deal with politics, um, not just internal politics. 275 00:13:15,441 --> 00:13:17,241 And there's gonna be plenty of that in the church. 276 00:13:17,451 --> 00:13:19,364 She'll have to deal, deal with real politics. 277 00:13:19,664 --> 00:13:23,324 I mean, her name was put forward by the Prime Minister to the king. 278 00:13:23,564 --> 00:13:25,754 I mean, this is politics. 279 00:13:26,494 --> 00:13:27,334 Adam: It absolutely is. 280 00:13:27,334 --> 00:13:29,914 Um, George Kerry, I should just say for the record, had to resigned as a 281 00:13:29,914 --> 00:13:33,154 priest last December over not just his readmitting, a priest who'd been banned 282 00:13:33,154 --> 00:13:36,094 from ministry after being accused of section assaults on teenage girls, but 283 00:13:36,207 --> 00:13:39,554 actually actively pushing colleagues to give that priest a particular job. 284 00:13:39,794 --> 00:13:41,294 So, um, he, he might. 285 00:13:41,654 --> 00:13:44,324 Possibly consider taking his own advice on judicial silences 286 00:13:44,564 --> 00:13:46,124 along with Justin Welby, I think. 287 00:13:46,154 --> 00:13:46,484 Ian: Yeah. 288 00:13:46,484 --> 00:13:49,364 Is there not a silent order where, where all former 289 00:13:49,364 --> 00:13:51,464 archbishops could go for, I dunno. 290 00:13:51,464 --> 00:13:56,409 I'm thinking maybe 10 years a Trappist location somewhere. 291 00:13:57,194 --> 00:13:57,944 Adam: I'm saying nothing. 292 00:13:58,902 --> 00:14:01,901 Ian: But it's going to be, same sex, couples. 293 00:14:02,361 --> 00:14:05,811 Women, priests, um, and then assisted dying, which she's 294 00:14:05,811 --> 00:14:08,421 already made her position clear on. 295 00:14:08,733 --> 00:14:14,043 and as a former chief nurse, it was quite interesting 'cause she has done this, um, 296 00:14:14,048 --> 00:14:15,263 Adam: an educated view, isn't it? 297 00:14:15,263 --> 00:14:15,903 Yes, it's, yeah. 298 00:14:15,993 --> 00:14:18,963 Ian: So that is quite interesting on one of those big moral issues. 299 00:14:19,201 --> 00:14:20,251 we have someone who has. 300 00:14:20,551 --> 00:14:22,051 Bit more experience. 301 00:14:22,201 --> 00:14:24,571 So again, that will get her into trouble. 302 00:14:24,571 --> 00:14:25,951 I'm sure that's politics. 303 00:14:26,131 --> 00:14:29,551 I mean, it is actually a bill that's meant to be going through Parliament, 304 00:14:29,671 --> 00:14:31,801 so there will be more of this to come. 305 00:14:32,155 --> 00:14:33,925 for the sake of comprehensiveness, I should say. 306 00:14:33,925 --> 00:14:38,702 There's also, the issue of COVID and the closing of the churches and they were 307 00:14:38,702 --> 00:14:40,982 closed in London even for private prayer. 308 00:14:41,162 --> 00:14:46,172 And a lot of, um, priests felt that was, um, a failure at the one time. 309 00:14:46,732 --> 00:14:48,682 When the church was absolutely needed. 310 00:14:48,948 --> 00:14:51,168 I mean, with any candidate there's a lot of baggage. 311 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:54,271 so I just thought I'd mention as much of it as possible, uh, 312 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:56,452 uh, and wish her luck obviously. 313 00:14:59,409 --> 00:15:01,534 Adam: Now onto another story that Private Eye has been following 314 00:15:01,534 --> 00:15:02,404 for a good long while now. 315 00:15:02,434 --> 00:15:05,734 Uh, the discovery, or rather in this case, confirmation that the 316 00:15:05,734 --> 00:15:09,064 police service of Northern Ireland was for many years routinely spying 317 00:15:09,064 --> 00:15:13,714 on journalists in what they called a defensive security operation. 318 00:15:13,804 --> 00:15:16,354 Uh, the journalist in question, quite a few other people have different opinions 319 00:15:16,354 --> 00:15:17,314 about why it might've been happening. 320 00:15:17,674 --> 00:15:18,814 Jane, you've been following this. 321 00:15:18,814 --> 00:15:20,649 So what's the most recent development in this story? 322 00:15:21,634 --> 00:15:26,374 Jane: Uh, so our last issue, we were, um, reporting on the publication of 323 00:15:26,374 --> 00:15:30,054 the McCulloch review, , so in the case of, of two journalists who, 324 00:15:30,201 --> 00:15:33,591 transpired, the police had indeed been, uh, carrying out surveillance on. 325 00:15:34,011 --> 00:15:38,204 Uh, but in the course of that case, lots more, uh, cases of 326 00:15:38,204 --> 00:15:39,434 surveillance came to light. 327 00:15:39,524 --> 00:15:44,310 And so the new chief constable of, police service of Northern Ireland had 328 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:48,955 had a review carried out by a kc and that was published, um, last issue. 329 00:15:49,510 --> 00:15:54,353 And lots and lots more, uh, evidence of, of surveillance came out in that, 330 00:15:54,383 --> 00:15:59,423 including some, some unusual things such as anybody who had been in touch 331 00:15:59,633 --> 00:16:03,538 with the police, press office, uh, journalists who got in touch, uh, 332 00:16:03,538 --> 00:16:05,668 whether they phoned up or emailed in. 333 00:16:05,668 --> 00:16:06,462 But so long as they're. 334 00:16:06,717 --> 00:16:07,947 phone number was available. 335 00:16:08,247 --> 00:16:13,887 It was kept, and then it was washed through the phone system to check 336 00:16:13,887 --> 00:16:17,967 whether anybody from any police station anywhere in Northern Ireland was 337 00:16:18,117 --> 00:16:20,187 speaking to journalists off the record. 338 00:16:20,997 --> 00:16:26,522 So, in a way this was principally spying on their own staff, but they were doing 339 00:16:26,522 --> 00:16:31,664 it by using, journalists and track, trying to track down journalists sources. 340 00:16:31,856 --> 00:16:33,075 Adam: just to unpack this story a bit. 341 00:16:33,075 --> 00:16:36,015 This all kicked off with, um, a documentary that was made about 342 00:16:36,015 --> 00:16:39,425 the Locking Island massacre, which was, , an attack on a pub 343 00:16:39,425 --> 00:16:41,975 for granted by Catholics in 1994. 344 00:16:42,305 --> 00:16:45,425 Uh, a gun attack by members of the Oster Volunteer Force. 345 00:16:45,515 --> 00:16:48,245 Um, it's actually during a World Cup match between Ireland and Italy. 346 00:16:48,245 --> 00:16:50,555 So you can imagine how, how, how crowded the pub was at the time. 347 00:16:50,945 --> 00:16:53,645 Um, many years later, the police ombudsman for Northern Ireland concluded 348 00:16:53,645 --> 00:16:56,855 that, um, police in what was then known as the Royal Ster Constabulary. 349 00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:59,240 Since, since turned into the police service in Northern Ireland. 350 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:04,400 Um, but the ombudsman concluded that, uh, the, the officers had, um, colluded 351 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,060 with the UVF to protect informants that they had in that particular 352 00:17:08,060 --> 00:17:09,830 parent paramilitary organization. 353 00:17:10,361 --> 00:17:12,491 so journalists, Barry McAfee and Trevor Binney made a 354 00:17:12,491 --> 00:17:14,501 documentary about this in 2017. 355 00:17:14,591 --> 00:17:17,081 So we're talking, this was something that amazed me slightly much. 356 00:17:17,351 --> 00:17:19,601 We're not going right back to the height of the troubles in all of this. 357 00:17:19,601 --> 00:17:23,021 This is, this is a much, much more recent surveillance efforts, isn't it? 358 00:17:23,714 --> 00:17:23,906 Jane: Uh, 359 00:17:24,236 --> 00:17:26,966 Adam: and McCafferty had their homes raised, they had documents seized. 360 00:17:27,070 --> 00:17:29,380 uh, a judge later ruled that the search warrants that police had used 361 00:17:29,380 --> 00:17:30,820 for that raid were inappropriate. 362 00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:33,250 Um, and in the course of that investigation, they discovered the police 363 00:17:33,250 --> 00:17:35,980 had been running covert surveillance on them for years, hadn't they? 364 00:17:36,385 --> 00:17:39,364 Jane: the police were desperately trying to find out who, Bernie 365 00:17:39,509 --> 00:17:42,089 and McCaffrey's sources were. 366 00:17:42,449 --> 00:17:46,110 They suspected that somebody at the, police ombudsman. 367 00:17:46,165 --> 00:17:48,085 Was, um, passing information. 368 00:17:48,265 --> 00:17:51,715 So they were also carrying out surveillance of the people whose 369 00:17:51,715 --> 00:17:53,515 job it is to be the police watchdog. 370 00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:59,485 So they were carrying out surveillance of their own watchdog and of these, um, two 371 00:17:59,485 --> 00:18:03,685 journalists to try and find out whether they had any contacts between them. 372 00:18:03,865 --> 00:18:05,185 Um, they never uncovered. 373 00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:08,570 The, who, the source of, of the information was through all of this. 374 00:18:09,020 --> 00:18:13,070 But yes, they were using things like, um, traffic cameras to, to watch 375 00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:14,900 where these journalists were going. 376 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,200 The, you, they were, you know, it's a proper like TV 377 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,772 style surveillance operation. 378 00:18:21,132 --> 00:18:21,777 the, the alleged 379 00:18:21,877 --> 00:18:24,487 Adam: crime in all of this, which as you say was never proved, was theft 380 00:18:24,487 --> 00:18:28,837 of an official document because the Ombudsman's report to remind ourselves 381 00:18:28,837 --> 00:18:31,747 that was extremely critical of the police service of Northern Ireland had, 382 00:18:31,777 --> 00:18:34,777 uh, been leaked to these journalists who had reported it as something 383 00:18:34,777 --> 00:18:36,727 that's entirely in the public interest. 384 00:18:36,967 --> 00:18:37,357 Jane: Yes. 385 00:18:37,387 --> 00:18:41,467 So, so all of this effort and resource and so forth of the police who, who clearly 386 00:18:41,467 --> 00:18:46,327 have no crimes whatsoever to investigate in Northern Ireland, besides this was, was 387 00:18:46,357 --> 00:18:48,487 all about protecting police reputation. 388 00:18:48,487 --> 00:18:48,727 This. 389 00:18:49,317 --> 00:18:53,157 You know, this was all about who was passed information on about 390 00:18:53,157 --> 00:18:57,207 how badly police had handled the Rocking Island murder investigation. 391 00:18:57,472 --> 00:18:58,072 Adam: Essentially. 392 00:18:58,072 --> 00:19:00,872 It sounds a lot like the, uh, the, the police put an awful lot of effort 393 00:19:00,872 --> 00:19:04,472 into protecting potential killers who did tell them things and going after 394 00:19:04,472 --> 00:19:06,302 journalists, who wouldn't tell 'em stuff. 395 00:19:06,302 --> 00:19:07,982 Is that, is that a kind of summary? 396 00:19:08,252 --> 00:19:08,612 Jane: Yes. 397 00:19:08,624 --> 00:19:13,289 the, uh, review that was published, a fortnight ago among it's, it 398 00:19:13,289 --> 00:19:17,687 reveals many more journalists, all of whom were investigating things 399 00:19:17,687 --> 00:19:22,457 that like, um, police corruption and police collusion and relations with 400 00:19:22,757 --> 00:19:24,827 the UVF and all that kind of thing. 401 00:19:25,867 --> 00:19:31,237 some lawyers who have also sort of represented the other side in cases where, 402 00:19:31,237 --> 00:19:34,717 for instance, victims' families have sued the police and that kind of thing. 403 00:19:35,017 --> 00:19:37,747 So these are all the people who the, the police were surveilling. 404 00:19:37,946 --> 00:19:40,016 Adam: And that seems to be like enormous numbers, doesn't it? 405 00:19:40,016 --> 00:19:43,046 Because one extraordinary detail that came out ahead of the case, which the two 406 00:19:43,046 --> 00:19:46,457 journalists brought at the Investigatory Powers Tribunal, and I should just, um, 407 00:19:46,487 --> 00:19:47,627 tell listeners exactly what that is. 408 00:19:47,627 --> 00:19:49,907 They, they basically are an independent body which provides the right of 409 00:19:49,907 --> 00:19:52,457 redress to anyone who believes they've been the victim of unlawful 410 00:19:52,457 --> 00:19:55,877 action by a public authority using convert investigation techniques. 411 00:19:55,877 --> 00:19:59,117 But that includes MI five, MI six, and GCHQ. 412 00:19:59,117 --> 00:20:01,037 So pretty, sort of wide ranging powers there. 413 00:20:01,729 --> 00:20:04,369 There were several other parties who applied to be part of this 414 00:20:04,369 --> 00:20:07,489 case, uh, including the BBC and the National Union of Journalists. 415 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:10,819 Um, and lawyers for MI five and GCHQ at that point argued that actually they held 416 00:20:10,819 --> 00:20:16,219 so much material on BBC journalists in Northern Ireland that they simply didn't 417 00:20:16,219 --> 00:20:20,779 have the time or the necessary staff to go through all of that information ahead 418 00:20:20,779 --> 00:20:22,451 of when the tribunal was scheduled for. 419 00:20:22,617 --> 00:20:23,277 Jane: Uh, that's right. 420 00:20:23,277 --> 00:20:27,825 So there are more tribunals, covering things like BBC journalists coming up, 421 00:20:27,915 --> 00:20:31,245 um, separately and in, in relation to, uh. 422 00:20:31,489 --> 00:20:36,697 BBC journalist, Vincent Kearney, both police and MI five have admitted certainly 423 00:20:36,697 --> 00:20:38,797 that they have his phone records. 424 00:20:38,857 --> 00:20:41,917 Now, not, that's not the contents of the conversations, it's it's the who 425 00:20:41,917 --> 00:20:43,567 he called and who called him records. 426 00:20:43,567 --> 00:20:49,087 But that's hugely useful if you're trying to work out who a journalist sources are. 427 00:20:49,617 --> 00:20:52,707 Adam: And as a journalist, this is sort of quite terrifying. 428 00:20:52,707 --> 00:20:56,607 I mean, the idea, I mean, we do take, um, source protection extremely 429 00:20:56,607 --> 00:21:00,387 seriously, but actually in most cases, you are not reporting on. 430 00:21:00,527 --> 00:21:02,747 Cases of, uh, violent killers. 431 00:21:02,747 --> 00:21:06,587 I mean, the retribution potential for if your sources are given away 432 00:21:06,587 --> 00:21:09,942 to anyone in, in, in stories like this is, terrifying, isn't it? 433 00:21:10,552 --> 00:21:11,392 Jane: Yeah, absolutely. 434 00:21:11,392 --> 00:21:15,982 I mean, so yeah, so much of these, these cases sort of relate to, um, 435 00:21:16,372 --> 00:21:20,812 the sort of paramilitary and gang violence in, in Northern Ireland. 436 00:21:21,082 --> 00:21:24,862 These are not people that you want, um, to get on the wrong side of, 437 00:21:25,077 --> 00:21:29,419 Ian: And The idea is it's the police who are looking into your sources, but the 438 00:21:29,419 --> 00:21:33,229 police are the people being accused of collaborating with the very bad people. 439 00:21:33,619 --> 00:21:36,979 Um, and therefore might well give your information to the very 440 00:21:36,979 --> 00:21:40,069 bad people that is, is worrying. 441 00:21:40,353 --> 00:21:43,748 Adam: It is all slightly reminiscent of, uh, as we were saying, the, um, ITV 442 00:21:43,748 --> 00:21:48,218 drama, the hack, or at least half of the hack, uh, which, um, I understood 443 00:21:48,248 --> 00:21:51,038 ahead of, uh, its transmission was gonna be the story of how Nick Davies 444 00:21:51,038 --> 00:21:54,068 uncovered, uh, phone hacking at the news of the world for the Guardian. 445 00:21:54,068 --> 00:21:57,788 In fact, half of it turned out to be a completely separate program and 446 00:21:57,788 --> 00:22:01,143 really oddly, sort of episode two, I thought, hang on, I've, I, I, I've, 447 00:22:01,148 --> 00:22:03,728 I've clicked on the wrong thing here because it was totally different. 448 00:22:03,728 --> 00:22:05,528 And to be, to tell a completely different story, 449 00:22:05,543 --> 00:22:07,763 Jane: I, I've tuned into a police drama by mistake. 450 00:22:07,763 --> 00:22:07,823 Yeah. 451 00:22:08,093 --> 00:22:08,453 Yes. 452 00:22:08,658 --> 00:22:09,498 Adam: it was bizarre. 453 00:22:09,498 --> 00:22:14,312 Um, uh, yeah, so it, it was, uh, in fact both halves of the drama, the 454 00:22:14,312 --> 00:22:16,652 hack are kind of stories that the, the, the I has followed on and off 455 00:22:16,652 --> 00:22:18,242 over many, many years, if not decades. 456 00:22:18,302 --> 00:22:21,452 Um, so the, the other half that wasn't about, specifically about Nick Davis 457 00:22:21,452 --> 00:22:24,392 and phone hacking, uh, was about the many police investigations into the 458 00:22:24,392 --> 00:22:27,782 murder of private Detective Daniel Morgan in South London in 1987. 459 00:22:28,112 --> 00:22:32,132 Uh, and specifically the role of Dave Cook, uh, a police officer who. 460 00:22:32,577 --> 00:22:35,307 I gotta say it came out slightly less heroic in the 461 00:22:35,307 --> 00:22:37,047 eyes coverage in over the years. 462 00:22:37,389 --> 00:22:40,569 Jane, tell us a bit about, uh, about Dave Cook and his involvement 463 00:22:40,569 --> 00:22:41,559 in the Daniel Morgan case. 464 00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:45,666 Jane: So, um, he's a detective, chief superintendent, so 465 00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:47,076 quite a senior detective. 466 00:22:47,138 --> 00:22:48,416 so he took on. 467 00:22:48,486 --> 00:22:52,116 The investigation, I think it was the fifth reinvestigation of the case. 468 00:22:52,176 --> 00:22:56,824 Um, so he was sort of brought in to have another go at trying to, to find 469 00:22:56,824 --> 00:23:01,842 out who had killed private investigator Daniel Morgan, an ax murder, which 470 00:23:02,011 --> 00:23:06,121 was a number of suspects involved in, um, sort of organized crime. 471 00:23:06,613 --> 00:23:09,151 his investigation, resulted. 472 00:23:09,571 --> 00:23:13,681 this does, has not, so far in the episodes I've seen, has, does not come 473 00:23:13,681 --> 00:23:19,381 out at all resulted in both a, a high court case and an appeal court case, 474 00:23:19,741 --> 00:23:25,289 um, in which it emerged that he had coached witnesses, for their evidence. 475 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:26,579 And, um. 476 00:23:26,861 --> 00:23:31,661 Essentially this, uh, created a massive risk of a miscarriage of justice. 477 00:23:31,781 --> 00:23:37,451 And, um, the high court upheld that this was, um, misfeasance in public office, 478 00:23:37,511 --> 00:23:41,651 and the appeal court later concluded that it was, uh, malicious prosecution. 479 00:23:41,789 --> 00:23:46,589 so the, the risks of, um, miscarriages of justice when police officers do 480 00:23:46,589 --> 00:23:48,089 that kind of thing are very high. 481 00:23:48,164 --> 00:23:48,314 Adam: Yeah. 482 00:23:48,374 --> 00:23:51,764 It resulted in the collapse of the trial that, uh, that they were hoping to 483 00:23:51,764 --> 00:23:55,844 bring in 2011, uh, and as you say, um, and actually a payout for, um, of, of 484 00:23:55,844 --> 00:23:59,549 more than half a million pounds to the, the people who recused of involvement 485 00:23:59,549 --> 00:24:00,704 in the murder of Daniel Morgan. 486 00:24:00,997 --> 00:24:04,589 and the, the case remains even after these five police investigations 487 00:24:04,589 --> 00:24:08,694 and a large independent, um, report on it in more recent years. 488 00:24:08,909 --> 00:24:10,289 Unsolved officially. 489 00:24:10,289 --> 00:24:14,669 It is a fascinating case 'cause it does touch on a whole axis of corruption within 490 00:24:14,669 --> 00:24:18,569 the police, uh, particularly in South London, which also it has kind of like 491 00:24:18,569 --> 00:24:23,099 tendrils that go into the whole debacle over the Stephen Lawrence murder our 492 00:24:23,099 --> 00:24:26,339 late colleague Paul Foot looked an awful lot into, uh, into what was going on 493 00:24:26,339 --> 00:24:29,129 around various police stations in South London and their involvement with, uh, 494 00:24:29,339 --> 00:24:32,659 involvement of various officers with, uh, corrupt kind of gang land figures There. 495 00:24:33,092 --> 00:24:35,822 it's also got massive tendrils, which you know, is what the thing 496 00:24:35,822 --> 00:24:39,302 that connected it in the drama, uh, to, uh, fleet Street as well. 497 00:24:39,302 --> 00:24:40,202 What was Fleet Street? 498 00:24:40,262 --> 00:24:45,633 Um, both the news of the world 1 senior journalist there, Alex Murran Murch, was 499 00:24:45,633 --> 00:24:49,473 involved in, uh, putting surveillance on Dave Cook's family that's depicted in 500 00:24:49,473 --> 00:24:50,798 the drama, uh, but also the daily mirror. 501 00:24:51,153 --> 00:24:51,723 As well. 502 00:24:51,753 --> 00:24:55,817 Um, famously, uh, the, a lot of the police tapes and police bugs picked up 503 00:24:55,817 --> 00:24:59,267 journalists going in and having a chat with, uh, Daniel Morgan's associate, 504 00:24:59,507 --> 00:25:03,227 John Reese Southern Investigations, the company he ran, uh, including, um, 505 00:25:03,257 --> 00:25:06,587 Gary Jones, who, uh, went on to become until quite recently, the daily editor 506 00:25:06,587 --> 00:25:09,917 of The Daily Express, discussing with Jonathan Re was sitting, listening to 507 00:25:09,917 --> 00:25:12,737 Jonathan Reese describe how what they were up to was very, very illegal. 508 00:25:12,887 --> 00:25:14,352 So, um, there are. 509 00:25:15,152 --> 00:25:18,932 It is the most extraordinary case, which so far no one has got entirely 510 00:25:18,932 --> 00:25:22,504 to, to, to the bottom of, the, uh, commissioner of Met Police, I just 511 00:25:22,504 --> 00:25:25,714 say, Mark Riley refused to accept the finding of the independent panel that 512 00:25:25,714 --> 00:25:28,905 looked into the various investigations into the Daniel Morgan murder, that 513 00:25:28,905 --> 00:25:31,005 his force was institutionally corrupt. 514 00:25:31,305 --> 00:25:33,945 Um, just as he did the findings, Louise Casey, who ran an inquiry 515 00:25:33,945 --> 00:25:35,385 following the murder of Sarai Everard. 516 00:25:35,725 --> 00:25:39,108 By a, uh, serving met officer, uh, that the met was institutionally 517 00:25:39,108 --> 00:25:41,568 racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. 518 00:25:41,778 --> 00:25:45,108 All of this, of course, ahead of last week's panorama, which went into 519 00:25:45,108 --> 00:25:48,378 Charing Cross Police Station with some secret filming to prove that that does 520 00:25:48,378 --> 00:25:49,878 pretty much appear to be the case. 521 00:25:49,928 --> 00:25:53,048 Ian: this applies to so many institutions, it's a default position. 522 00:25:53,198 --> 00:25:56,768 You are criticized, you say This institution is really important. 523 00:25:56,828 --> 00:26:00,818 The church, the police, the B, BC, the NHS. 524 00:26:01,088 --> 00:26:05,588 It's so important that we continue our good work that we must shut up everyone 525 00:26:05,588 --> 00:26:07,178 who says we're not doing good work 526 00:26:07,407 --> 00:26:07,953 Jane: now. 527 00:26:08,323 --> 00:26:11,143 Ian: You can see people falling into this, and for some reason, 528 00:26:11,143 --> 00:26:13,633 Paula Nels comes straight into mind. 529 00:26:13,813 --> 00:26:15,763 This is the most blatant case of it. 530 00:26:15,883 --> 00:26:18,073 Uh, the post office is very, very important. 531 00:26:18,073 --> 00:26:23,233 We must defend the brand and the, if the police do it, it's really dangerous. 532 00:26:23,323 --> 00:26:27,703 I mean, it's pretty dangerous when anyone does it, but for them to devote this much 533 00:26:27,703 --> 00:26:31,003 time to what is essentially, uh, revenge. 534 00:26:31,318 --> 00:26:34,618 Um, for bad publicity, it's not really lessons learned. 535 00:26:34,948 --> 00:26:39,058 It's not, uh, we must, you know, sort of make sure things are going better. 536 00:26:39,058 --> 00:26:41,308 It's just saying, uh, we don't like this. 537 00:26:41,458 --> 00:26:42,718 We are gonna get our own back. 538 00:26:42,778 --> 00:26:47,083 And that, I mean, you know, does the police know good at all? 539 00:26:47,249 --> 00:26:50,669 Jane: And of course Paulas was also one of the shortlisted candidates 540 00:26:50,669 --> 00:26:52,649 to be Bishop of London back in, um. 541 00:26:53,424 --> 00:26:58,998 2018 when, um, Sarai Mulally was, uh, eventually selected for the post. 542 00:26:58,998 --> 00:27:02,194 So we could be looking at Archbishop Paula now. 543 00:27:03,249 --> 00:27:03,789 Adam: Wow, 544 00:27:03,935 --> 00:27:07,115 Ian: the Daniel Morgan episode in the hack, which was, I mean, 545 00:27:07,145 --> 00:27:08,645 I've, I've read all the pieces. 546 00:27:08,765 --> 00:27:11,405 All of you have written about this for a long time and 547 00:27:11,405 --> 00:27:12,995 understood only some of them. 548 00:27:13,205 --> 00:27:16,595 I mean, it is an unbelievably complex case. 549 00:27:16,827 --> 00:27:22,017 but I felt there, the fact that it was suddenly the news of the world spying 550 00:27:22,017 --> 00:27:26,201 on a policeman, I know it was there to demonstrate that they basically 551 00:27:26,351 --> 00:27:29,771 were out of control, the press and spied on everybody and thought they 552 00:27:29,771 --> 00:27:33,851 were above the law, literally above the police and above everyone else. 553 00:27:34,001 --> 00:27:40,185 But for me it confused what was the drift of, Nick Davis investigation, 554 00:27:40,448 --> 00:27:46,058 which was simpler to follow and ended up with various people from the Murdoch 555 00:27:46,058 --> 00:27:48,428 organization going to jail, and Mr. 556 00:27:48,428 --> 00:27:51,578 Murdoch having to sit there and have a custody by friend at him, which 557 00:27:51,578 --> 00:27:56,078 seems to me the big point of the story, but that, that may be just me. 558 00:27:56,738 --> 00:27:58,628 Adam: I mean, it did have extraordinary details which were 559 00:27:58,628 --> 00:27:59,828 taken directly from real life. 560 00:27:59,828 --> 00:28:04,418 I mean, the, the fact that when, um, uh, Dave Cook, uh, went in to talk to 561 00:28:04,448 --> 00:28:07,928 Rebecca Brooks, then editor of the News of the World about, the surveillance 562 00:28:07,928 --> 00:28:10,508 that had been put on his family, the excuse being by the way that they 563 00:28:10,538 --> 00:28:13,568 thought he was having an affair with the Crime watch presenter, Jackie 564 00:28:13,568 --> 00:28:15,518 Hammes, to whom he had been married for 565 00:28:15,533 --> 00:28:16,493 Jane: quite some years by 566 00:28:16,628 --> 00:28:18,428 Adam: point, so not the most convincing excuse. 567 00:28:18,638 --> 00:28:22,148 She did go directly from that, escorted by, uh, the Mets head of communication. 568 00:28:22,178 --> 00:28:25,808 And Dick Fedor to a reception with the Met Commissioner, which does 569 00:28:25,808 --> 00:28:29,648 sort of slightly suggest some fairly cozy relationships there, doesn't it? 570 00:28:29,878 --> 00:28:31,378 Ian: That was a fine bit of the drama. 571 00:28:31,378 --> 00:28:34,498 I thought the, the portrayal of Rebecca Brooks as a 572 00:28:34,498 --> 00:28:36,178 misunderstood and innocent woman 573 00:28:37,028 --> 00:28:37,838 Adam: absolutely, 574 00:28:37,888 --> 00:28:38,788 Ian: I thought was top 575 00:28:39,363 --> 00:28:41,523 Adam: How else could you possibly portray it, Ian? 576 00:28:41,952 --> 00:28:44,592 Ian: I think it's worth pointing out that the Nick Davis' book, 577 00:28:44,592 --> 00:28:46,362 which he's rewritten, is that right? 578 00:28:46,427 --> 00:28:46,547 Jane: He 579 00:28:46,547 --> 00:28:50,417 Adam: has, he's added an extra chapter on, uh, new investigations into what he says, 580 00:28:50,447 --> 00:28:53,117 uh, is evidence of corporate hacking. 581 00:28:53,147 --> 00:28:57,677 So specifically by management, uh, at, uh, at News International as it was to 582 00:28:57,677 --> 00:29:01,907 try and interfere with kind of political decisions which were being taken over the 583 00:29:01,907 --> 00:29:03,917 proposed takeover of Sky at that point. 584 00:29:04,277 --> 00:29:04,667 And I think 585 00:29:05,072 --> 00:29:08,432 Ian: that stuff is very interesting too, just in terms of a less 586 00:29:08,432 --> 00:29:12,662 confusing narrative and it's, it's slightly more, it's moved it on. 587 00:29:12,812 --> 00:29:15,662 Adam: It's certainly peaking the interest of lawyers at News International who 588 00:29:15,662 --> 00:29:18,752 has revealed a couple of issues back, have been sending out warning letters to 589 00:29:18,752 --> 00:29:22,592 anyone who might think about reviewing that book or saying anything about it. 590 00:29:22,592 --> 00:29:24,932 Oddly enough, we have said something about that book. 591 00:29:24,932 --> 00:29:26,732 We didn't get the letter, so there you go. 592 00:29:26,972 --> 00:29:27,987 Keep reading private eye. 593 00:29:31,182 --> 00:29:34,977 Now as promised, Helen Lewis is off on her travels in the States, but Andrew 594 00:29:34,977 --> 00:29:37,812 Hunter Murray wasn't having a slack off on her podcast duties just 'cause of that. 595 00:29:38,142 --> 00:29:41,712 So he's caught up with her to talk about Donald Trump's recent alarming claims 596 00:29:41,712 --> 00:29:45,792 around autism, paracetamol, or Tylenol as it's known in the US and pregnant women. 597 00:29:46,332 --> 00:29:48,822 Uh, they kicked off by talking about one of the offshoots of maga, 598 00:29:49,002 --> 00:29:51,162 the alphabetically adjacent Maha. 599 00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:52,130 Here's Helen. 600 00:29:52,130 --> 00:29:52,250 Here's 601 00:29:52,683 --> 00:29:55,443 Helen: Maha is Make America healthy again. 602 00:29:55,843 --> 00:29:58,153 And it's probably gonna turn out to be one of the most consequential 603 00:29:58,153 --> 00:29:59,563 parts of the Trump agenda. 604 00:29:59,863 --> 00:30:03,223 Now, let's be brutal about what Trump has managed to achieve so 605 00:30:03,223 --> 00:30:05,473 far is a lot of destroying things. 606 00:30:05,983 --> 00:30:07,963 Uh, would I say that was the kind of thing that's the, the 607 00:30:07,963 --> 00:30:09,403 main outcome of Doge, right? 608 00:30:09,403 --> 00:30:12,853 Is that they just cut a lot of programs, particularly in, um, overseas aid. 609 00:30:13,398 --> 00:30:15,618 Whether or not they're good at building new things that they 610 00:30:15,648 --> 00:30:17,178 do, like remains to be seen. 611 00:30:17,448 --> 00:30:19,158 And Maha is a very good example of that. 612 00:30:19,158 --> 00:30:21,848 So, it is currently being led, the Department of Health and Human 613 00:30:21,848 --> 00:30:24,098 Services by Robert f Kennedy Jr. 614 00:30:24,518 --> 00:30:27,653 Now, as the name suggests, he's the son of the original Bobby Kennedy. 615 00:30:28,823 --> 00:30:32,908 Brother of JFK, and then, you know, from a lifelong democratic family, 616 00:30:32,908 --> 00:30:36,898 he's both a lifelong environmental campaigner and a lifelong, well, pretty 617 00:30:36,898 --> 00:30:39,028 much lifelong, um, vaccine skeptic. 618 00:30:39,693 --> 00:30:43,023 and, you know, he has a variety of, I would say pseudo-scientific 619 00:30:43,023 --> 00:30:44,163 views on a number of things. 620 00:30:44,553 --> 00:30:45,603 And in his position. 621 00:30:45,645 --> 00:30:48,651 in control of the Health Department of America, he is able to do 622 00:30:48,651 --> 00:30:52,636 things like change the vaccine schedules, change the collection 623 00:30:52,636 --> 00:30:54,873 of data, all of that kind of stuff. 624 00:30:54,933 --> 00:30:58,743 The, you know, I think might have very severe consequences for 625 00:30:58,743 --> 00:31:00,183 infectious disease in America. 626 00:31:00,528 --> 00:31:04,428 Andy: When you say vaccine schedules, is that who gets it? 627 00:31:04,488 --> 00:31:05,448 How many are dished out? 628 00:31:05,448 --> 00:31:05,958 What is that? 629 00:31:06,693 --> 00:31:09,753 Helen: It's a recommendations on basically what childhood vaccines there should be. 630 00:31:09,753 --> 00:31:13,833 You know, he's, he's making the COVID vaccines harder to get, and now that's, 631 00:31:13,833 --> 00:31:16,203 you know, that's something that's kind of debatable about what this 632 00:31:16,203 --> 00:31:17,583 kind of schedule for those should be. 633 00:31:17,583 --> 00:31:19,944 And, but childhood vaccines are. 634 00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:24,230 know, to the scientific community a much less, uh, controversial topic, right? 635 00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:27,050 We just simply know that there are children alive today who wouldn't 636 00:31:27,050 --> 00:31:28,760 be because they got the MMR vaccine. 637 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:29,990 Look at the rates of that. 638 00:31:30,353 --> 00:31:32,276 but he is, you know, he's, he's very worried. 639 00:31:32,336 --> 00:31:37,166 Um, he's is deeply steeped in vaccine skepticism and he basically got rid of 640 00:31:37,166 --> 00:31:41,576 the panel at the center of a disease control, the CDC that is in charge of 641 00:31:41,576 --> 00:31:44,666 the kind of vaccine recommendations and stuffed it with people who are 642 00:31:44,666 --> 00:31:46,256 much more of his point of view. 643 00:31:46,363 --> 00:31:49,213 Andy: It's interesting hearing about this from a British perspective because I think 644 00:31:49,213 --> 00:31:54,763 in the UK a lot of government ministers or cabinet ministers even are people 645 00:31:54,763 --> 00:31:59,807 without a specific ax to grind in the area that they're given the portfolio for. 646 00:32:00,197 --> 00:32:04,003 Barring maybe the exception of, ed Miller Band, who's, you know, like 647 00:32:04,008 --> 00:32:06,673 did climate and energy last time and is doing it again this time and 648 00:32:06,673 --> 00:32:07,933 has been doing a lot in between. 649 00:32:08,442 --> 00:32:12,162 you know, Heidi Alexander hasn't been banging the drum for better bus 650 00:32:12,162 --> 00:32:15,432 provision for 30 years and has now finally been given the transport brief. 651 00:32:15,522 --> 00:32:18,729 So it's quite weird hearing about this from the RFK side of things. 652 00:32:19,384 --> 00:32:19,714 Helen: Yeah. 653 00:32:19,714 --> 00:32:21,904 And that's a reflection of really the unique way that he 654 00:32:21,904 --> 00:32:23,314 ended up in this administration. 655 00:32:23,314 --> 00:32:27,094 So, uh, you know, the Kennedys are the, the big democratic Catholic 656 00:32:27,094 --> 00:32:31,534 family, you know, and he ran initially for president as a Democrat. 657 00:32:32,104 --> 00:32:35,344 And so there's this very funny dynamic where quite a lot of oppo research 658 00:32:35,344 --> 00:32:40,138 dump came out in, you know, uh, the spring of last year, which was. 659 00:32:40,378 --> 00:32:43,558 You know, designed to kind of, um, tank him essentially. 660 00:32:43,768 --> 00:32:46,168 Because what happened at that point was that he was edging 661 00:32:46,168 --> 00:32:47,188 towards the Republicans. 662 00:32:47,428 --> 00:32:49,678 So the Republicans loved him running as a Democrat because they thought 663 00:32:49,678 --> 00:32:53,038 the Kennedy name was gonna kind of draw support away from Joe Biden. 664 00:32:53,518 --> 00:32:55,221 and then suddenly, hang on a minute. 665 00:32:55,221 --> 00:32:57,909 No, he's edging towards, he didn't get on the ballot as a Democrat. 666 00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:59,019 He's an independent, uh oh. 667 00:32:59,079 --> 00:32:59,649 Actually. 668 00:33:00,114 --> 00:33:02,124 What do people who hate vaccines normally vote for? 669 00:33:02,124 --> 00:33:03,324 That's us, the Republicans. 670 00:33:03,534 --> 00:33:04,284 This might be a problem. 671 00:33:04,404 --> 00:33:06,924 And then so you start seeing this mad spate of stories after 672 00:33:06,924 --> 00:33:09,834 hearing lots of stuff about his great environmental, uh, activism. 673 00:33:09,834 --> 00:33:12,714 Suddenly you got to hear a lot of stories about, there's this time where he think, 674 00:33:12,714 --> 00:33:14,094 we think he might have eaten a dog. 675 00:33:14,634 --> 00:33:17,454 He says It was a goat, I should clarify for the record. 676 00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:21,474 And then, and a further revolution happened, at which point Trump 677 00:33:21,714 --> 00:33:26,154 realized how great it would be to be able to have a Kennedy on his ticket. 678 00:33:26,934 --> 00:33:30,864 To say, people say, I'm incredibly extreme and right wing, look at 679 00:33:30,864 --> 00:33:32,124 me, I'm reaching across the aisle. 680 00:33:32,304 --> 00:33:33,234 I've got a Kennedy. 681 00:33:33,504 --> 00:33:35,904 And you know, somebody said that to me when I was, um, canvassing in 682 00:33:35,934 --> 00:33:39,264 Pennsylvania for people's opinions and ahead of the last election. 683 00:33:39,264 --> 00:33:41,334 They said, well, you know, he's, you know, he's got a broad 684 00:33:41,334 --> 00:33:42,534 church, he's got a Kennedy, 685 00:33:43,029 --> 00:33:45,399 Andy: You are not a good Kennedy, like 686 00:33:45,414 --> 00:33:47,064 Helen: He's got very much one of the, 687 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:47,499 Andy: the 688 00:33:47,514 --> 00:33:48,684 Helen: less good Kennedys. 689 00:33:48,954 --> 00:33:49,614 Yeah, I mean. 690 00:33:50,089 --> 00:33:52,579 There's quite a few fairly rogue Kennedys. 691 00:33:52,890 --> 00:33:54,690 but yeah, anyway, but so this was, this was the point. 692 00:33:54,690 --> 00:33:57,570 He had a great value to, to Trump as a kind of fig leaf. 693 00:33:57,990 --> 00:34:02,430 And actually, you know what, he was very popular with that kind of Rogan 694 00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:05,700 sphere, as I often call it, you know, the podcast sphere, because what is 695 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:09,180 the podcast that bit of the Trump friendly podcast sphere funded by? 696 00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:14,070 So crypto, which is, you know, money without regulation and supplements, 697 00:34:14,070 --> 00:34:15,750 which is medicine without regulation. 698 00:34:16,475 --> 00:34:20,986 And so if you want to find, you know, m. Pseudo alternatives to sunscreens, 699 00:34:21,016 --> 00:34:24,996 or you want to hear discussions of like what, testosterone replacement 700 00:34:24,996 --> 00:34:27,486 therapy, which is something that, um, Kennedy has spoken about. 701 00:34:27,486 --> 00:34:29,706 It's why he says he can still do a pull up at sev, you know, in his 702 00:34:29,706 --> 00:34:31,776 seventies, all of that kind of stuff. 703 00:34:32,076 --> 00:34:35,431 Then he was very friendly with that kind of Establishment 704 00:34:35,431 --> 00:34:37,081 skeptic, bit of the podcast sphere. 705 00:34:37,531 --> 00:34:40,531 Uh, and some of it is, you know, just take a few vitamins and eat a bit better. 706 00:34:40,891 --> 00:34:43,351 And, uh, some of it's avoid seed oils, which is kind of neutral. 707 00:34:43,351 --> 00:34:46,471 And some of it's, you know, maybe the MMR vaccine causes autism, 708 00:34:46,531 --> 00:34:48,301 which is debunked and untrue. 709 00:34:48,781 --> 00:34:51,211 So, you know, he, he had, he brought a great asset to the 710 00:34:51,211 --> 00:34:53,881 Trump team and as a result, he got the portfolio that he wanted. 711 00:34:53,911 --> 00:34:54,121 Right. 712 00:34:54,151 --> 00:34:56,431 He was, that, he's like, that was what he was always gonna get. 713 00:34:56,521 --> 00:34:58,441 His environmental views would not have sat very well. 714 00:34:58,441 --> 00:34:58,621 Right. 715 00:34:58,621 --> 00:35:01,236 If he'd been given Ed Milliman's portfolio, he might've said. 716 00:35:01,716 --> 00:35:04,026 You know, we should stop polluting the rivers. 717 00:35:04,026 --> 00:35:05,886 And that would've been quite an unpopular thing to say. 718 00:35:06,096 --> 00:35:09,246 But in the, you know, in the, in the context of the current movement, 719 00:35:09,293 --> 00:35:12,435 his skepticism of traditional medicine is, is absolutely on 720 00:35:12,435 --> 00:35:13,798 brand for the Trump administration. 721 00:35:13,834 --> 00:35:17,464 Andy: So one point that you've made is that the Trump administration, 722 00:35:17,540 --> 00:35:22,482 the first one for all its legions of faults and corruption and, and goodness 723 00:35:22,482 --> 00:35:27,942 knows what else did actually produce COVID vaccines, but he was unable 724 00:35:27,942 --> 00:35:31,422 to boast about it because so many of his supporters don't like jabs. 725 00:35:31,606 --> 00:35:34,604 Helen: Yeah, there was a really funny movement in the, um, in the hearing. 726 00:35:34,604 --> 00:35:37,453 So, RFK Jr was in front of a, a senate committee hearing, you 727 00:35:37,453 --> 00:35:38,593 know, being kind of scrutinized. 728 00:35:38,953 --> 00:35:43,052 And Louisiana Republican, bill Cassidy, who provided the, casting, deciding 729 00:35:43,052 --> 00:35:45,362 vote on his confirmation in this role. 730 00:35:45,362 --> 00:35:45,602 Right. 731 00:35:45,915 --> 00:35:48,645 is obviously now feeling that he's been sold a pup as well. 732 00:35:48,645 --> 00:35:50,295 He might, because RFK 733 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,180 Andy: a goat or a 734 00:35:51,465 --> 00:35:51,975 Helen: or a goat. 735 00:35:54,015 --> 00:35:55,725 The Boulogne structure is very similar. 736 00:35:56,078 --> 00:35:59,249 you can't tell from the picture of it barbecued, uh, at all. 737 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:03,179 Anyway, so, you know, he, he, he, he's obviously shown a bit of buyer's 738 00:36:03,179 --> 00:36:07,709 remorse, and so he asked RFK Junior if he thought Donald Trump deserved a Nobel 739 00:36:07,709 --> 00:36:10,469 Prize for operation warp speed, which is, you said, was the, the government 740 00:36:10,469 --> 00:36:12,119 program to develop a COVID vaccine. 741 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,999 And Rogen went a, you know, absolutely. 742 00:36:15,659 --> 00:36:18,839 And then Cassidy's follow up question was, well, how have you just told us that? 743 00:36:19,134 --> 00:36:22,704 The quotes, the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID, right? 744 00:36:23,334 --> 00:36:27,654 So the Maha position is now both that Donald Trump is an absolute legend for 745 00:36:27,654 --> 00:36:31,344 having invented the COVID vaccine, but also the COVID vaccine killed people, 746 00:36:31,488 --> 00:36:35,328 Andy: Yeah, it's quite, it's two quite distant planks to straddle, isn't it? 747 00:36:35,393 --> 00:36:38,963 Helen: and he's the man to straddle them because his, as I say, his muscle tone 748 00:36:38,963 --> 00:36:40,529 from man in his seventies is exemplary. 749 00:36:40,724 --> 00:36:45,014 Andy: So he is making it harder to get vaccines, not just the COVID ones, 750 00:36:45,014 --> 00:36:48,734 but childhood vaccines, things like vaccinating children against measles. 751 00:36:48,734 --> 00:36:51,374 And I believe that is starting to yield results, isn't it? 752 00:36:51,443 --> 00:36:53,557 Helen: this is why there's a real worry about it because I 753 00:36:53,557 --> 00:36:55,087 have already been, um, the first. 754 00:36:55,747 --> 00:36:58,687 Measles deaths in the US for, for quite a long time, for about a decade. 755 00:36:58,987 --> 00:37:01,657 And that happened in a Mennonite community, so a very 756 00:37:01,657 --> 00:37:03,367 closed religious community. 757 00:37:03,667 --> 00:37:05,827 And those are, you know, communities that have traditionally been very 758 00:37:05,827 --> 00:37:09,247 skeptical of, of vaccines anyway, um, and traditional medicine. 759 00:37:09,787 --> 00:37:13,146 And, you know, it's too simplistic to attribute that because, you know, they. 760 00:37:13,671 --> 00:37:16,581 The administration had only been in place for a certain amount of 761 00:37:16,581 --> 00:37:20,685 time, but I think you can certainly say that the, prominence of vaccine 762 00:37:20,685 --> 00:37:24,405 skepticism on large parts of the right and bits of the left, what you might 763 00:37:24,405 --> 00:37:25,755 call the kind of crunchy left, right. 764 00:37:25,755 --> 00:37:28,005 There's a lot of kind of people who do yoga who also think 765 00:37:28,005 --> 00:37:29,145 the body can heal itself. 766 00:37:29,688 --> 00:37:31,858 that, you know, it's not a. Purely partisan view. 767 00:37:32,398 --> 00:37:36,063 I'm sure that has contributed to, a culture of suspicion 768 00:37:36,123 --> 00:37:37,473 of medicine essentially. 769 00:37:37,935 --> 00:37:40,665 yeah, and then we always, I, I, I've read today as well that in the US 770 00:37:40,665 --> 00:37:45,046 some rabies cases have also gone up, so make rabies great again. 771 00:37:45,186 --> 00:37:45,786 Andy: Good Lord. 772 00:37:46,166 --> 00:37:49,106 I know that you have to go through a confirmation hearing. 773 00:37:49,166 --> 00:37:51,446 You mentioned earlier one of the Republicans who. 774 00:37:52,001 --> 00:37:55,991 Confirmed him, uh, to, to be approved for your seat or, or you know, the role 775 00:37:55,991 --> 00:37:57,491 you've got in cabinet, whatever it is. 776 00:37:58,271 --> 00:38:00,731 Was it close with Kennedy? 777 00:38:00,898 --> 00:38:04,229 Helen: Yeah, it was, it required a, certain amount of, of brow beating, 778 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,594 of a couple of Republican senators who were really reluctant to pass him. 779 00:38:08,684 --> 00:38:10,634 Um, and the senate's very finely divided, right? 780 00:38:10,634 --> 00:38:12,674 So a couple of votes, one way or the other would've been decisive. 781 00:38:13,061 --> 00:38:15,882 and there was a. A really substantial push by the Trump administration to get 782 00:38:15,882 --> 00:38:18,372 him in post, because essentially that was the bargain that had made right. 783 00:38:18,372 --> 00:38:20,502 Like, switch to supporting us and we'll give you health. 784 00:38:20,972 --> 00:38:24,362 and it's a shame because immediately what happened, he also appointed his 785 00:38:24,362 --> 00:38:26,252 own director of the CDC, Susan Menez. 786 00:38:26,282 --> 00:38:29,012 She lasted 29 days before they fell out. 787 00:38:29,455 --> 00:38:32,319 and even in that time, in her first week in the job, a gunman turned 788 00:38:32,319 --> 00:38:34,419 up at some CDC offices in Atlanta. 789 00:38:35,259 --> 00:38:40,221 Um, sprayed of 500 rounds and the gunman's rationale was, I've been 790 00:38:40,221 --> 00:38:42,591 driven to be feeling suicidal because of the COVID vaccine. 791 00:38:43,131 --> 00:38:47,001 So you can already see where the strengths of feeling that there is 792 00:38:47,001 --> 00:38:49,971 about the fact that, you know, the COVID vaccine was a lie or it was 793 00:38:50,061 --> 00:38:54,111 implementing with microchips, or it was part of some, you know, sinister plot. 794 00:38:54,111 --> 00:38:57,261 Like those are all widely held views on some. 795 00:38:57,511 --> 00:38:59,431 Bits of the Maha, right. 796 00:38:59,761 --> 00:39:00,901 And they're real world consequences. 797 00:39:00,901 --> 00:39:03,211 And, and so Menari has quit along with a load of other senior 798 00:39:03,211 --> 00:39:06,649 officials, just essentially saying, you're destroying the CDC. 799 00:39:07,285 --> 00:39:11,847 their job is going to be harder, because, you know, they, they're running uphill 800 00:39:11,847 --> 00:39:15,597 basically against an administration that thinks that they're kind of corrupt and, 801 00:39:15,867 --> 00:39:19,287 and unscientific, and they've covered up the, the downsides of vaccines. 802 00:39:20,068 --> 00:39:22,081 Andy: Wait, they think these guys are on scientific. 803 00:39:22,816 --> 00:39:24,886 Helen: They think the CDC are un scientific and, and one of their, 804 00:39:24,886 --> 00:39:29,236 um, kind of prime ways that they've demonstrated this is that the CDC changed 805 00:39:29,236 --> 00:39:30,856 all of its advice to be gender neutral. 806 00:39:30,856 --> 00:39:34,516 So it would say like, it, its advice on pregnancy would refer entirely 807 00:39:34,516 --> 00:39:36,586 on to pregnant people, for example. 808 00:39:37,006 --> 00:39:40,605 And this is part of the kind of Trump, line, which is essentially like, these 809 00:39:40,605 --> 00:39:41,865 people don't even know what a woman is. 810 00:39:41,865 --> 00:39:45,555 Why would you trust them with any kind of scientific advice and I, and to an 811 00:39:45,555 --> 00:39:47,325 outsider, I think that kind of seems. 812 00:39:47,615 --> 00:39:48,425 Kind of loopy, right? 813 00:39:48,425 --> 00:39:51,575 These are two very, like a, a, a linguistic tweak is very different to 814 00:39:51,575 --> 00:39:55,507 like the question of whether or not a vaccine has side effects, which is 815 00:39:55,507 --> 00:39:57,007 something you can empirically establish. 816 00:39:57,517 --> 00:40:01,087 But it is part of the, the way that gender and the left has 817 00:40:01,087 --> 00:40:05,017 been used to delegitimize, like left wing authority basically. 818 00:40:05,017 --> 00:40:08,437 And that for, for some parts of the right is a really potent message to them. 819 00:40:08,713 --> 00:40:11,345 Andy: now Helen, as you know, I'm a parochial list. 820 00:40:11,622 --> 00:40:13,987 I care principally about British politics. 821 00:40:14,317 --> 00:40:18,757 Is there a sign that this vaccine stuff is making its way over 822 00:40:19,033 --> 00:40:19,933 Helen: Uh, I'm, 823 00:40:20,473 --> 00:40:22,183 Andy: or are we inoculated against it? 824 00:40:22,303 --> 00:40:22,513 Helen: Oh yeah. 825 00:40:22,513 --> 00:40:22,783 Nice. 826 00:40:22,783 --> 00:40:22,903 Very 827 00:40:22,903 --> 00:40:23,143 nice. 828 00:40:23,428 --> 00:40:25,933 I, I think it's harder because of the position of the the 829 00:40:25,933 --> 00:40:28,093 BBC and OFCOM regulation. 830 00:40:28,415 --> 00:40:29,405 I can't think of any of the. 831 00:40:29,795 --> 00:40:34,685 Major newspapers that are really, I mean, you know, the, I think they're also still 832 00:40:34,685 --> 00:40:38,195 feeling slightly scorched over MMR in the way that they were misled over that right. 833 00:40:38,195 --> 00:40:40,085 As indeed private eye was at at the time. 834 00:40:40,415 --> 00:40:42,425 So I think there's a, was more of a reluctance to go 835 00:40:42,425 --> 00:40:44,495 there on vaccine stuff online. 836 00:40:44,495 --> 00:40:48,425 I'm sure lots of Britains who get all their news from Facebook are absolutely 837 00:40:48,425 --> 00:40:50,075 drowning in anti-vaccine sentiment. 838 00:40:50,315 --> 00:40:52,475 But the other thing is, you know, like the classic phrase about American 839 00:40:52,475 --> 00:40:53,510 politics, which is like American. 840 00:40:53,845 --> 00:40:57,415 Sneezes and Britain catches a cold, well, America sneezes 841 00:40:57,415 --> 00:40:59,065 because an American's got bird flu. 842 00:40:59,785 --> 00:41:02,957 Then that person gets on a plane, then Britain very much could catch that cold. 843 00:41:02,957 --> 00:41:03,197 Right. 844 00:41:03,197 --> 00:41:06,676 This is the, thing is that you know, we had one pandemic, we're still overdue. 845 00:41:06,676 --> 00:41:07,846 A flu pandemic. 846 00:41:08,176 --> 00:41:13,396 It's really important that you can trust global health authorities. 847 00:41:13,501 --> 00:41:15,511 you know, one of the things, big problems with COVID was the feeling of 848 00:41:15,511 --> 00:41:18,991 like, is any of the data that's coming outta China even vaguely reliable? 849 00:41:19,470 --> 00:41:21,840 I think there are now similar questions about a lot of the health data that's 850 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,860 coming out of America, as well as that agency's ability to like, go 851 00:41:25,860 --> 00:41:29,148 to the poultry farm, do the testing, work out what strain it is, is it 852 00:41:29,148 --> 00:41:30,378 actually anything to be worried about? 853 00:41:30,378 --> 00:41:30,588 Right? 854 00:41:30,798 --> 00:41:31,998 All of that kind of stuff. 855 00:41:31,998 --> 00:41:32,308 I think that. 856 00:41:32,618 --> 00:41:34,598 Ability is being eroded. 857 00:41:34,868 --> 00:41:37,718 And it's a real shame because actually on the other side of it, some of what 858 00:41:37,868 --> 00:41:39,998 RFK JR was saying is really basic. 859 00:41:39,998 --> 00:41:41,888 Like, have you considered eating a vegetable? 860 00:41:41,918 --> 00:41:42,608 I hear they're good. 861 00:41:43,058 --> 00:41:43,328 Right? 862 00:41:43,328 --> 00:41:46,238 And when Michelle Obama did it, they were like, oh, I don't need to be 863 00:41:46,238 --> 00:41:47,888 told what to do by Michelle Obama. 864 00:41:48,218 --> 00:41:51,938 But actually like the idea that you should go to the gym and eat right. 865 00:41:52,338 --> 00:41:55,158 Is a message that America with its obesity crisis and its 866 00:41:55,158 --> 00:41:59,298 incredibly unworkable places to live, could really do with hearing. 867 00:41:59,328 --> 00:42:02,838 So there's a kind of great tragedy about RFK Junior that, that, you know, 868 00:42:02,838 --> 00:42:07,698 there's a lot of kook there, but there's also, you know, some quite basic advice 869 00:42:07,698 --> 00:42:09,318 that is probably quite good for people. 870 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,330 and meanwhile, America has multiple, you know, terrible health crises 871 00:42:13,330 --> 00:42:16,810 that I don't suspect that this CDC and this health department and RFK 872 00:42:16,810 --> 00:42:20,170 Junior are gonna be able to have a lot of hef to do something about. 873 00:42:20,782 --> 00:42:22,762 Adam: That was Helen Lewis and, uh, thanks to Andy. 874 00:42:22,872 --> 00:42:25,182 , Ian, I should just say, coming off the back of that, Helen mentioned 875 00:42:25,182 --> 00:42:28,979 in passing, Private eye did have a role in, uh, the MMR controversy and 876 00:42:28,979 --> 00:42:30,089 connections to autism, didn't it? 877 00:42:30,089 --> 00:42:30,419 In the past. 878 00:42:30,689 --> 00:42:31,049 Ian: Yes. 879 00:42:31,049 --> 00:42:33,913 Nice Helen to bring up my, uh, not finest hour. 880 00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:37,100 Yes, the early MMR coverage in the eye was wrong. 881 00:42:37,469 --> 00:42:42,212 we accepted, the findings of Wakefield's first study, as did the lance. 882 00:42:42,422 --> 00:42:46,352 And there were, uh, various other voices, but we were essentially wrong 883 00:42:46,352 --> 00:42:50,942 to stay with it and wrong to stay questioning it and ran a, a mayor cul. 884 00:42:51,557 --> 00:42:51,647 the 885 00:42:51,647 --> 00:42:54,617 person who was right in this was Phil Hammond, our current 886 00:42:54,617 --> 00:42:56,852 MD, who said, no, this is wrong. 887 00:42:56,852 --> 00:42:57,542 And he was right. 888 00:42:57,831 --> 00:42:59,061 Adam: And that's it for this episode 889 00:42:59,061 --> 00:42:59,181 of 890 00:42:59,181 --> 00:43:00,771 page nine four, the Private Eye Podcast. 891 00:43:00,771 --> 00:43:03,359 If you want to read more about, uh, the cases we've been discussing 892 00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:06,589 and many, many more, which will be popping up for years to come. 893 00:43:06,589 --> 00:43:10,369 Then, uh, get yourself, first of all a copy of the magazine, uh, and 894 00:43:10,369 --> 00:43:13,369 if you like what you see, then get yourself a subscription as well. 895 00:43:13,369 --> 00:43:14,989 It's incredibly reasonably priced. 896 00:43:15,306 --> 00:43:16,959 thank you to Jane Mackenzie. 897 00:43:16,959 --> 00:43:18,279 Thank you to Ian Hislop. 898 00:43:18,669 --> 00:43:21,279 Thank you to Helen Lewis and Andrew Hunter Murray. 899 00:43:21,279 --> 00:43:25,179 And thank you to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing as ever, uh, until 900 00:43:25,179 --> 00:43:26,229 the next time, in a fortnight, goodbye.