>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Ruth, who is the director of

St Beuno's in Wales and is a Jesuit associate. She

speaks about her experience of prayer, listening

to God and going on her first 30 day silent

retreat in her 20s. I loved talking to her about

her experience as a spiritual director and how

you've got to find your way to talk with God. So,

Ruth, what did prayer mean to you growing up?

>> Ruth: Well, I grew up as a cradle Catholic. Prayer was

saying your prayers. Prayer might have extended to

going to Mass if I'd really thought about it, but

I don't think I thought about it. What I remember

as a young child is Mum saying, have you said your

prayers? As I was going to bed. To which I would

always reply, yes, mostly not having done it. So I

think that I grew up with that sense of

obligation. Say your prayers. Set prayers. Our,

Father Hail Mary. And that was it as a child. And

probably it wasn't till I was sort of in my late

teens that I became part of a youth group and we

did some other things and we went on retreat. And

that was great fun. And sort of then God and

prayer seemed to be a bit more interesting than it

had been while I was growing up. One thing I do

remember is when I was about 14, feeling slightly

guilty, I wasn't doing anything for Lent. so I

thought, right, well, I'll try and say a decade of

the rosary every day during Lent, not really

knowing what the rosary was. I didn't realise

Jesus was involved at all or that there were,

things to think about. I thought I just had to say

lots of Hail Marys. So I tried to do that for Lent

when I was 14, but it was probably the first time

I'd intentionally try to pray, other than, you

know. Have you said your prayers? No.

>> Julia: So how did you get from being 14, 15, praying the

rosary, not really sure what you're doing with it,

to then studying theology?

>> Ruth: Well, that was the youth retreats I went on. so I

went to a place called Kintbury De La Salle

Retreat Centre as a teenager, and then I actually

worked there for a year. And, at the time I went

to work there. And I went to work there because

retreats made, faith in God interesting and fun.

And I'd enjoyed it as a teenager myself. And I

thought, wow, it'd be so cool to work in a place

like that. At the time I went to work there, I was

actually studying, electronic engineering. I'd

been doing an apprenticeship and I was taking a

year out before going to university. because I'd

sort of worked in it for four years. And while I

was there, I decided I wanted to study theology

rather than, engineering. I think I just got God,

and the communal prayer and the encouragement to

actually have personal prayer, I think had sort of

helped to nudge me along that path to, taking my

faith in God more seriously. I was still fairly

poor at praying and sort of actually

concentrating. But, I was hopeful that if I did

theology then maybe I'd understand more about my

faith.

>> Julia: What do you mean when you say you got God?

>> Ruth: Well, I think I was surrounded by people who were

taking their faith seriously. And I think there

was a sense of a relationship with God developing.

We were encouraged to talk to God at Kimbry, just

as you might to a friend, which is a phrase I

heard years later with the Spiritual Exercises and

that seemed to be having an impact on me. It made

me want more, made me want to know more about my

faith. it made me want to have a better

relationship with God, which I thought was fairly

distant and I wasn't very good at it. I do

remember a particular moment when I sat under a

tree in the grounds at Kintbury. They had this

massive cedar tree. and I sat under there and I

sort of wrote God a blank check. And I said to

God, okay, well, I will then commit my life to

you, God. I don't know what that means, but I

will. There was no actual plan at that point. but

shortly after that I thought, well, if I'm going

to be serious about this, I better go and do some

theology. And I was interested.

>> Julia: What I've learned about life is if you make a

plan, God rips it up. So it's probably a good

thing you didn't have a plan.

>> Ruth: Absolutely. And I refer to it as sort of writing a

blank cheque, if people know what checks are these

days. And at the time, I think I really meant it.

I think also I forgot that commitment quite

quickly. It was only in later years when I was

going back, that I remembered I'd done that. And

then I went and studied some theology and that's

when things started to shift somewhat.

>> Julia: So did God speak to you in your time of study?

>> Ruth: Oh, that's an interesting question. Did God speak

to me? No. I tried to get better at praying. I

tried to sort of follow what seemed to be good

ideas. I was very influenced by seeing a lot of

really serious, faithful people around. I was at

the Jesuit College, Heythrop and they all were

very bright and seemed to be taking their faith

seriously. I went through a period of atheism

while studying theology because all my arguments

for why there was a God got knocked out. And it

was actually seeing the people around me who were

priests, religious and other very committed lay

people, that I thought, well, they think there's

something in it. Maybe I'll stick with it. And I

gradually sort of drifted back. most of this

happened only within my own head. But that's when

I did start to get spiritual direction. I went to

one of the priests in, the college and asked if I

could talk about my faith. And that was helpful, I

think, to share my doubts, my desires about, I

want to be able to pray better and I can't. What

do I do? and I think that was the start of, if you

like, the next phase of my faith.

>> Julia: So in that moment when you went to the priest and,

asked for spiritual direction, did you call it

spiritual direction or did you ask it like, can we

talk about faith stuff?

>> Ruth: Do you know? I can't remember, but I suspect it

was the former because I think I didn't know what

spiritual direction was when I went to college.

I'd never heard of it, but I was surrounded by

guys in training for priesthood, who had talked

about spiritual direction. so I might have

referred to it as that. But I was having a

particular personal crisis at the time, so it's

just as likely it was, Can I chat to you about

this?

>> Julia: Because I was just thinking, if you've never had

spiritual direction before, I imagine, well, I put

myself back into before I had spiritual direction.

It's quite daunting thing to consider talking to

someone about your faith journey or what's going

on with You. I guess there's also could be that

expectation of what if I'm doing it all wrong? And

then I speak to somebody and they say to me, yeah,

you are doing it wrong.

>> Ruth: Yeah, yeah. that's why I can't quite remember if I

called it spiritual direction. I was certainly

chatting to him about my issues and my problems

and he was the one who brought in faith. But I

already had, I already knew him. I suppose it was

easier because I knew him a bit and trusted him

and he was very supportive. what then happened is

after I'd left college, I continued to see him. So

I think by then it was formally spiritual

direction. but yeah, I think, I mean, in my. I've

been spending the last sort of 30 odd years as a

spiritual director and I think your assessment is

right. I think when people start to consider or

come for the first time, they don't really know

what to do. And there is a concern that, they'll

get found out. And I think, yeah, I think I

probably shared that experience as well.

>> Julia: So what do you say to someone who's afraid of,

like, they're praying wrong?

>> Ruth: I don't think you can pray wrong. I think you can

make life difficult for yourself in prayer. I,

think there's an old chestnut, pray as you can and

not as you can't. So I think for people who are

exploring prayer, it's about trying to find

something that suits you, that you find, if not

easy, then at least doable at this point in your

life because prayer changes through life and

different things happening to us. but whatever you

choose, I think that nagging sense of you're still

not doing it terribly well can come back if you

have a tendency towards that. And so speaking to

someone else about it can be quite helpful in

terms of unpicking. so what of what you're doing

is actually being helpful. and it's okay if you're

not having wonderful mystical experiences every

day in prayer. A lot of prayer is quite sort of

run of the mill, possibly even boring. but the

desire to be there and to try and deepen a

relationship with God I think is what we're

looking for. Hm.

>> Julia: So how did you end up being a spiritual director?

>> Ruth: Oh, well, so after theology, well, after I'd done

my bachelor's degree, I wanted to do a master's,

but needed to find some money. So I went back to

my parish priest, where I'd been very involved as

a teenager, a few years earlier, and said, you

know, I'd really like to do this master's in

theology. Can you give me some money and if you do

I'll come back and work for you. It was a bit

transactional. Now I look back at it and he said,

yeah, sure. So you helped to fund my masters. So I

went back and worked in my home parish for three

years, which was very good. I was doing catechesis

and RCIA courses and visiting people in hospital

and anything else the parish priest could think

of. And after about two and a half, perhaps nearly

three years of that, I was trying to work out do I

stay in ministry of some sort or actually do I go

and do a proper job? And that was how I put it to

myself. I think working for the church, and this

is a good few years ago now, wasn't a great career

move for a lay woman. There weren't many

opportunities out there, but I sort of had an

Igling feeling it was good to stay in some sort of

ministry, but I just didn't know if that was

feasible, if that's what God wanted for me. I sort

of flirted with religious life on and off over the

years and never really sort of landed it or done

anything too seriously about pursuing it. And I

saw, I was in the parish office one day and I saw

an advert for a three month course at St Beuno's

funnily enough, which I'd heard of because I'd

been at the Jesuit college, but I didn't know it

and what it said. As part of the three month

course you do the 30 day Spiritual Exercises which

again, I wasn't really sure what they were, but

what I remember thinking was, well, 30 days, God

will either say something really clear about what

I should be doing with my life or I'll go and do

accountancy. Because I knew the one thing I didn't

want to do was go back to engineering. I had two

degrees in theology, and I wasn't sure what else I

could do with it, but the way my brain works, I

thought maybe accountancy. So that was how I went

into the, the three month course and particularly

the 30 days with a question about, so what do I do

now with my life? Do I stay in some sort of church

ministry, faith circles, or do I get a proper job,

carve out a career and you know, my faith is what

I do at the weekends and possibly the odd retreat.

>> Julia: And what are the Spiritual Exercises?

>> Ruth: So Spiritual Exercises were something that came

out of St. Ignatius's experience of his prayer. He

went through quite a, dramatic conversion

experience and then quite a dramatic journey of

prayer. And you can read all about that on various

parts of the Jesuit website. And where he got to,

he realised that in looking back over his prayer,

there were some essentials to how he'd prayed,

what he'd done, how he had learnt about

discernment, learnt about the things that seemed

to be of God and the things that seemed to get in

the way of relationship with God. so he wrote his

Spiritual Exercises which is a series of

exercises, reflective or prayerful meditations and

contemplations. And if you make the 30 day

retreat, then you work your way through those

exercises with a director who's applying them and

adapting them to the person making the retreat.

and if you do a shorter retreat, we draw on those

exercises, but there are parts of them that just

apply to relationship with God and living a

relationship with God anyway. So discernment of

spirits, which I think is definitely easier on

retreat because you've got less cluttering up your

mind and heart. It's easier to notice what God

might be doing. but then you take that into your

life. So you might come to by nose because it's

conducive to prayer. But the hope would be you

then take that, whatever you've learned from the

Exercises, from your prayer, from your director,

from the place, you take that back into your life

and that it makes, an impact on your relationship

with God and your desire to love and to serve.

>> Julia: And what do you mean by discernment of spirits?

>> Ruth: So discernment of spirits goes right back as a

phrase to St. Paul and to the Desert Fathers. And

it's noticing, I mean, in the traditional language

it's saying, well, the world is full of good

spirits leading you toward God and bad spirits

getting in the way or leading you away. And that's

Ignatius's thought frame as well. What we tend to

say today is it's about noticing what is the Holy

Spirit doing in my life and, what are the things

that get in the way of that? So discerning the

movements of the Good Spirit, the Holy Spirit,

what are the things that lead me to having a

bigger heart, to being more generous, to being

more accepting of myself, to having more, I don't

know, more joy in life. You know, if we look for

the fruits of the Spirit, love, Joy, peace,

patience, etc. if we are spotting those in our

life, in our relationship with God, maybe we're

more in tune with God. The other things that get

in the way of that tend to be fear, anxiety,

overweening, pride, relentless, rationalisations

that actually don't get us anywhere, just take us

round in circles. those are things that get in the

way. So we might say in the shorthand, well that's

the bad Spirit or that's the counter movement, the

movement away from or just getting in the way of

what the Holy Spirit might be doing. So

discernment of spirits is really tuning in to what

is God doing in my life? what is God doing in me

as I live my day to day? Not just what happens in

prayer but what happens in my relationships, in my

work, in my times of fun, in my exercise in all

areas of my life you can do discernment of

spirits. What are the things that bring life and

hope and openness in me and therefore help me to

open my heart to others? And what are the things

that get in the way of that? It's not definitive.

This is God, this isn't God. but we can over time

become more aware of how these spirits or how the

Holy Spirit works in me and tune into that so that

we can live more from that place rather than from

the places of anxiety or confusion.

>> Julia: And now some years later, I won't say how many.

You're now director of that retreat centre. I have

so many questions about that one. Do you think

you'll. If you had gone back and told your however

old you were then self that you would be director

of that retreat centre, do you think your mind

would have gone no, no, no, that's not me.

>> Ruth: Absolutely. And in fact because I was part of this

three month course, when they accepted me on the

course they said, oh you're considerably younger

than everybody else. I was in my late 20s at the

time. and you've never actually made a silent

retreat before? you sure you want to do 30 days?

But if you want we'll take you. When I got there I

found I was the only layperson there which was far

more distracting for me. There were 35 priests and

religious and me, which I was a bit shocked by but

sort of turned out it was still a very good

experience. But because we were doing it as a

group, part of what we did, I think towards the

end of the course we were in small groups and we

were planning various things and one of these

exercises was we didn't have a leader for the

group but we had to produce something and I just

remember being very frustrated so I took over and

just told them all what to do. These were all

people 20, 30, 40 years my senior and they will

find it a bit hilarious and would tease me about

it. And then one of them said, and I remember

where I was sat in Beuno's when she said it, ha,

one day, Ruth, you're going to be director of

Beuno's And we all just roared with laughter. So,

it was absolutely ridiculous to imagine that. I

look back now and it was over 30 years ago. It's

quite funny. But what I did do at that time was

there was a job going at the other Jesuit retreat

house, in Merseyside. So I applied for that as a

result of my 30 day retreat. and that's how I

ended up moving into Ignatian spirituality and

retreat work. so yes, it's quite a funny story

really when I look back. I.

>> Julia: I think back. So now I've done, I think three or

four six day retreats, and I think back to myself

probably five years ago. And I remember thinking

doing even a six day full silence was very

daunting. So I just can't imagine just deciding to

commit to 30 days. That blows my mind. I would

love to do a 30 day retreat now, but that's

because I've slowly experienced how great the

silence is. So what advice would you give to

somebody who's considering doing a silent retreat

but doesn't know if they could survive with the

silence?

>> Ruth: Yeah, I think so. At Beuno's we do, I think we

have about 1500 people doing silent retreats every

year. Ah, of whom probably about 60 are doing the

full 30 days. A lot of people do the full

Spiritual Exercises which, which is a 30 day

retreat in blocks of 10 or 15 days. But the vast

majority of people who come come on the shorter

retreats from two days up to 30 days. So we have a

lot of weekend silent retreats and Monday to

Friday silent retreats. so for people who want to

give it a go but aren't sure, those are great way

in two or three days. and we do say to people when

they arrive and sometimes there's nervousness in

the opening meeting. If it's people's first time.

We're, we don't lock the gates so people can come

and give it a go and if they really don't like it

then that's fine, they can go home. However, in

all the years I've been doing retreats and running

retreat centres, I don't think anyone's ever gone

home early because of the silence. these retreats

have been going on for years. There's a way of

just entering into it and you meet with your

spiritual director every day during the retreat

and they help you to work out what are you going

to do during the retreat. so there's times of

prayer, people can go into the art room, go for

walks, stare out of the window and drink coffee,

which I think is a great way of being on retreat.

catch up on sleep. So your director helps you

structure the silence. and the whole place at

Beuno's is set up for silent retreats. So it's

easier if there are people around you. I think for

many people the challenge these days of turning

their phone off, is interesting because. So when I

did the 30 days 30 years ago, we were told you're

not allowed to look at newspapers. You know, you

don't get any posts. You get that sort of. There's

these things called repose days at midway points.

don't listen to the radio. Some people might

listen to music on those old things called tapes.

but we were basically, you'd basically cut off

communications and media, which was kind of easier

when it was newspapers and post, and radio because

you didn't have a radio and you couldn't listen to

it anyway because you'd make a noise in the

silence. I think now the call of mobile phones,

it's there, in your pocket. It provides, it can be

your watch, it can be your music, it's got email,

you've got social media, it's pinging away. so I

think that is the current challenge for a lot of

people in the silence. Because when the silence

gets maybe a little bit boring, which doesn't

happen that often but people have a point in the

day sometimes when they're a bit of a loose end.

So you need to work out what you're doing then,

that's when the phone is very tempting. Just.

Well, I'll just check this. and so the

encouragement these days on retreat is turn it

off, see what happens.

>> Julia: I'm just having many flashbacks. One to the fact I

was very concerned about my Duolingo streak.

>> Ruth: Oh yes.

>> Julia: Yeah. And then the, I think it was my first full

six day silent retreat was when the Queen died.

>> Ruth: Oh yeah.

>> Julia: So that added a whole different dynamic to it

because. Yeah, yeah, I had more temptation.

>> Ruth: Yes. And all things are negotiable. So I mean

these are the guidelines for silence. And so we

ask people, well, talk about, talk about it with

your director. You know, what's for some people

reading is the only way they can fall asleep at

night. So that might be something you negotiate.

On the whole, we don't suggest reading. You might

do a bit of spiritual reading, but reading on the

whole can pull you away a bit. But if that's

what's going to help you, then there's a way of

doing it. And anything like that can be discerned

and it can become part of the retreat. So it's not

a strict you must do this. It's more about what's

going to help you most, to be in the retreat, so

that you can listen to God and notice what God

might be saying to you. And the more we can, if

you like. Ignatius used to talk about separating

ourselves. But the more that we can let go of the

things that pull our attention away, the more

likely it is we're open to hearing or noticing

what God might be wanting to say to us.

>> Julia: We're talking of God saying something to us. What

does it mean when people say they've heard from

God?

>> Ruth: I think it means different things to different

people. I think some people. It's a very serious.

This thought came into my mind, and I absolutely

believe it is of God. and occasionally I think

that can happen to any of us as something.

Ignatius talks about consolation, without previous

course. Something just comes really clearly and

you just know it's God and there can be no

doubting it. Not sure that's a very common

experience. I think more commonly when people say

that God said this, or, you know, if there's a

certain maturity in their faith, what they're

saying is, I've had this intuition or this

inclination or these words of scripture that have

put something on my heart that seems to be of God.

And I am trusting it because although I said we

might be tentative about discernment of spirits

and questioning, is this of God? we just have to

act sometimes you can't spend the whole time

asking the question, so you step forward in faith.

And we have the traditions of the church, we have

scripture, we have ways of checking out. Is this

the sort of thing God might say? Which is. I think

when we're doubting something, we can at least ask

that question. And that's where talking to another

person, maybe a spiritual director about it, can

help us to test it. Not because the director will

say, oh, yes, God's definitely saying that to you,

but they help you to talk about it and to notice

what it's doing to you. So I think that whole

spectrum from that real clarity, this is what God

is saying. Which can sometimes be very real. But I

sort of tend to think we need to be a little bit

more humble before the experience and say, well I

think this is coming of God, but then I'm still

going to act with it, through to making rational

decisions because we're not getting any clues at

all from our feelings, from our sense of God, from

anything and trusting that God will be there to

catch us when we make the best we can of a

decision.

>> Julia: So what type of prayer speaks to you now?

>> Ruth: Mostly my prayer now is quite dull and simple. the

difference between now and 40 years ago is that

that doesn't bother me now. I think I've come to a

point where I recognise that any anxieties I have

about how I'm praying or what I'm doing or how

well I'm doing is about me and that God's probably

not that bothered. God's more interested in the

relationship. so I pray silently, sometimes, just

sit with God, sometimes fall asleep, but sometimes

actually pay attention. I have a sort of a body

mantra that I use sometimes which came to me. I

made the exercises again a few years ago and this

is something that came out of the exercises then

for me. and that's helpful. But I suppose most of

my relationship with God now is much more about

what happens in between the times of formal

prayer, the momentary conversations or arrow

prayers or moments of gratitude. when something

happens and I remember to actually say thank you.

There are occasionally moments when God sort of

catches me by surprise. one that's sort of around.

For me it has been for a few years. I was very

lucky enough to go to Jerusalem a few years ago

and I'd arrived late because of a meeting. So I

hadn't joined the group when they went to the Holy

Sepulchre. So they said to me, oh Ruth, you've got

to go now today, to the Church of the Holy

Sepulchre because you know it's closing, they're

going to be doing some restoration work. So I went

and it was a long queue and I was stood in the

queue and what you do there is you queue up and

then you go into this stone sort of chapel like

thing and there's an inner room or compartment,

and you go in and that's the stone where they say

Jesus was placed, for his burial. and as I was

queuing up I was not in a very good mood because

I'd had to rush out quickly And I'd got lost and

I'd finally found, and I was chuntering away to

myself, why am I doing this? I'm not sure I

believe this actually is the tomb of Jesus. I'm a

little bit of a rationalist and, you know, so why

am I doing this? Why are all these people doing

this? What's going on? And I was just in that

little loop of I'm not sure what the point of this

is, and am I just being a bit gullible by

believing that's where Jesus was buried and I

don't want to be, taken in. And all of this was

going on for a good hour or so. As I was queuing

up, finally got to the front, thought, well, I'll

do it because this is what people do when they go

to Jerusalem. So I'm going to do it. I'll just go

in. and I moved forward and I knelt down and what

popped into my head was, the point is, Ruth, he's

not here. And was that God speaking to me? I don't

know. But I did leave the tomb with a big grin on

my face, because it was that sort of moment of

breaking through my chuntering and bad mood. And I

do believe God was nudging me and saying, the

whole point is the resurrection. The point is he's

not here. And that was a delightful moment of

things coming together for me, if you like, while

I was in Jerusalem. And actually kind of that

stayed for a while, so it became less important.

But it was a moment of piety and it was a moment

of faith that happened because I'd put myself into

that queue and, and gone along. So I think there

are some things that now the listening to God is

day to day, but then just occasionally something

happens which, like you said, it drops into your

mind and you go away and you sit with it and it

can help you to relate to the God who wants to

relate to you.

>> Julia: So what have you learned about God and, people as

a spiritual director?

>> Ruth: Oh, gosh, how long have we got?

>> Julia: As long as you need.

>> Ruth: I'll start with people, I think. I think what I've

learned is many, many, many, if not the majority

of people struggle with their prayer life and

think maybe they're not doing it as well as they

should. So that's been a great, consolation for me

and been great to be able to normalise that for

people and say, yeah, that's what a lot of us

feel, that we're just not very good at that habit,

that people desire God and that's the starting

place. I think by the time people are coming for

spiritual direction, whether it's in a retreat or

in life, that's obviously already operating, that

they're wanting to find God, that people try, that

people's experience of God is recognisable as they

talk about it. So as the spiritual director,

you're looking for what we would say might be

movements of God in their life. I say might be

because you want to be definitive, but you are

using discernment of spirits and those clues of

what God can seem like in our experience and to

see does that open the person up, does it give

them more life, does it encourage them to be more

generous or more loving or more accepting of

themselves? So although people's experiences of

God and their prayer are all very, very different

from each other, nonetheless there's an experience

of God that's recognisable whether, whether

they're from a different tradition, a different

culture, a different generation. You kind of get

those same senses of ah, that looks to be of God

or not of God. On the other hand, what have I

learned about God? God is endlessly creative with

our messes. God is the one taking the initiative.

So all we have to do is show up and try. and that

God honours that and that God's got a very good

sense of humour. the way sometimes thoughts occur

to us on retreat or experiences happen just seem

very creative, as if only God could have known.

That's just what I needed to hear. so I find that

a great privilege to witness people walking with

God.

>> Julia: How do you help people discern, the way they're

most drawn to prayer?

>> Ruth: So I think a lot of it's experiment. try

something. So great thing about coming on a

retreat is you've got lots of space to try

different ways of praying. Similarly, with

retreats in daily life. So you can do online

retreats in life now. your director can make

suggestions and you can try different ways of

praying. So we'd often help people try out

different ways of praying with scripture or

meditation or contemplation or what Ignatius calls

colloquy, just talking to God. another exercise

which I often offer people because the Spiritual

Exercises are just that, they're exercises

Ignatius talks about. Just as people run and walk

for physical exercise, so too Spiritual Exercises

help us to develop that relationship with God. so

another exercise is one of gratitude. And that's

when I go back to again and again. Whether it's

looking, ah, back through your whole life and

noticing the things that you're grateful for and

that you want to thank God for, or whether it's

just looking back over the day or the last week.

And that can be a great place to start to

experiment with. Prayer is just to put yourself in

the presence of God or recognise you in the

presence of God and notice what you want to say

thank you for.

>> Julia: What do you wish more people knew about talking to

God?

>> Ruth: That I actually think now God is not that bothered

by how we pray or how regular it is or how long it

is, but just that we show up and want to be in

conversation with God. I think that would have

taken a lot of the pressure off and my prayer, my

relationship would be more driven by. Because I

want to be in relationship with God rather than I

should pray, I should count my blessings, which it

turns out is a good idea. But I didn't really

appreciate that when I first came across that. So

I think it's that, putting yourself in God's

presence, letting God look at you and talking to

God is a great way of starting prayer and that

that's all God is drawing us to.

>> Julia: And what are you most grateful for?

>> Ruth: I am very grateful to have made the Spiritual

Exercises that was definitely a turning point in

my life and, to have discovered Ignatian

spirituality. But I'm also very grateful for all

those people along the way who nudged me when I

wasn't aware that maybe God was nudging me. So who

gave me time, who listened to me, who made

suggestions. yeah, so the exercises and, the

people who've nudged me and accompanied me along

the way.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

of Ruth's experience as a spiritual director and

how she said it's really common for us all to

worry that we're not praying well enough. How

about you? We'd love to hear how Ruth's story

resonated with you. And why not also tell us if

you're facing an experience you wish you knew how

to look at differently, it might just be something

we can help with. You can find out more about this

and other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you

again for listening. I hope you'll join me again

next time on Things I Wish I Knew.