>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s, and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays navigating life's

challenges.

Today I'm, speaking to Sarah, who is married to

James and has been for over 30 years. She's been

involved in youth work and now works for the

Catholic charity the SVP. In this conversation, we

speak about her experience of marriage and how her

and her husband have grown together. I loved

speaking to her about how her and her husband have

inspired me, and particularly in the way they've

built their marriage together. So, Sarah, how did

you know marriage was right for you?

>> Sarah: In all honesty, I don't remember thinking of

anything else. I got married when I was 22, and I

knew I wanted to be a family person. I came from a

loving family. Mum and Dad were in many ways a

great example of marriage. And it wasn't even

something that I didn't think about, if you know

what I mean. It had been there since. yeah, since,

as early as I can remember. I always believed I

would be part of a family. And for me, family was

part of being married.

>> Julia: So how did you meet James, and how did you know he

was the one?

>> Sarah: Oh, goodness me. I met James when we were 10 years

old. Well, I was 10 and he was 11, and we met at a

junior sports day that was run by the diocese. I

went because his best friend was, in my parish.

He'd invited me to come along, and that's how I

met James. We were then, from that point on, in

the same group of friends, really. we went to

youth club together, we went to Lourdes together.

We just were in each other's lives for as long as

I can actually remember. I'm not great at

remembering before I was 10. So that's how I met

him. What was the second part of the question?

>> Julia: How did you know he was the one or when did he

know?

>> Sarah: How did I know he was the one? I knew really

early. And in fact, I think I knew before we were

even going out. in fact, there was a sort of point

at which he was going out with friends of mine and

I was going out with friends of his. I think we

were sort of avoiding getting to that point too

quickly. We share so much in terms of value. Love

of family, faith, passion for working with young

people, is a really, really strong value that we

both share. So I think we knew very, very early

on. And in fact, when we did start going out, he

asked me to marry him four days after I started

going out with him, which is slightly random. And

people would think, what? So we didn't share that

with everyone at the time. But, yeah, it was. To

me, it had been there a long time. And, no

regrets.

>> Julia: Well, that's really good.

So I'm getting married, and I think my biggest

question to anyone who's already married is, when

did it feel real that you were getting married?

>> Sarah: Okay, so I was 22 when I was getting married. And

if I'm honest, the preparation we had from the

church was really poor. We were sent on this,

marriage preparation weekend. And to say it was

the closest thing to experiencing being in prison,

that's slightly pushing it. However, we were

amongst about 50 couples. They told us to just

talk to one another. Now, all these people were

getting married, and all you want to do is talk

about your plans and what you're doing, but they

were saying, no, just talk to one another, etc.

And they gave us a book each, and they asked us

questions and we were supposed to go away, write

our answer and then swap. And. And that was the

sort of format of it. But when you've known each

other since you're 10 years old and they say,

write about who your family are. You think, who's

getting married that doesn't know who the other

one's family is? You know, so there was a lot of

that, which was really tough for us. And Julia

will appreciate this because this is my husband's

sense of humour in the very final question. And I

can't remember what it was. I opened the book and

it said, I'm a little teapot, short and stout. And

m. I thought, oh, we've reached that point. So,

yeah, marriage prep, not great. also, we were both

young, involved Catholics, and there was this

issue of putting us on a pedestal, just presuming

we'd know stuff and presuming that we'd Be okay. I

think if I'm honest, the marriage became real when

we got back from honeymoon. That sounds bonkers.

Like, how can you not think about the marriage?

But you're so focused and wrapped up in the

wedding. And I wasn't mature enough to go, I've

got to think about this. I've got to be ahead of

myself. I was just led by the heart. I knew this

was the right person for me. So we went on

honeymoon. And, because we'd not lived together

beforehand, my parents moved all my stuff. And I

can't tell you how odd it is to come back from a

holiday and to suddenly everything's moved.

There's a house there ready for you that you

didn't even take your own stuff into. Your name

has changed. And it was a bit of a mind melt, you

know, not the marriage, but so much of the stuff

around it. So, yeah, when I came back from the

honeymoon, that was when the marriage started. So,

yeah, not always the best way to start. And it's

not what I'd recommend people do.

>> Julia: And I was talking to a friend recently about this

and, I'm not living with my future husband until

after we're married. We've gone quite traditional

in that way. But I suppose when you got married 30

plus years ago, that was the expected thing to do.

And so in some ways, when you get married, your

whole life changes. Like you've just said about

your name changes, which it doesn't happen for

the, man, but we don't have to go into that. But

you moved house. Your whole way of life changes.

>> Sarah: In some ways, yes. In some ways your identity

feels removed. So I had a very Irish maiden name

and I moved to quite an English surname, which I

thought at the time be great because I wouldn't

have to spell it out for everybody. But you can't

imagine the amount of ways that people spell the

surname Barber or the amount of times I get called

Barbara. So, you know, it was great thinking that

that would be a good plan. Yeah, you're right.

Identity shifts and it, it takes some getting used

to. And I think we were both in that situation.

When I look at it, we both knew we wanted to be

together. There wasn't really ever a point at

which that wasn't a question, but there were times

when it was difficult. And actually, if I'm

talking to someone and I was saying to you

earlier, I'm really privileged to speak to you in

the month that you're getting married, I feel like

it's great that we were able to have this

conversation because actually the worst thing that

ever happened in my marriage was the best thing

that ever happened in my marriage. So we got to a

point which was dreadful, you know, and, ah. And

at one point I did say, get me out of this, you

know, it was a real terrible moment. It was

probably the worst moment in my life, but it was

the best moment and I'm very grateful that it

happened. Didn't want to go through it at the

time, but James wasn't happy in his work and, I

was getting promoted and my life was going in a

certain direction and he felt stuck and. And I

wasn't noticing that. and this happened really

early in our marriage, in the first two years, and

I stopped noticing his needs and was wrapped up in

work and really had a sort of very immature view

of where we were at. You know, we've got our

house, we've got jobs. Aren't we lucky? Isn't

everything fine? Actually, it wasn't fine. And

James was really not in a great place and I was

oblivious, I was selfish and I reached out to my

mum. Now my mum's a bit of a Victorian, you know,

parenting upbringing, whatever, but by God, she

was solid, she was brilliant. And she didn't blame

James. That was the critic that was. Had she gone

into, I protect my daughter, I love my daughter

and you've hurt her, it would have been

disastrous. And what she said was brilliant. She

said, you need help. And she found help. So we

went to. I don't know what they're called anymore,

but it was, it was Catholic marriage advice,

essentially, a counsellor who helped us to listen

to one another. And what came out of that was that

James wanted to be a teacher, something I had no

clue about. and he didn't even have the right

qualifications to get into teaching. And my mind

was blown because I was thinking, he's going to be

a student, we're going to have to live in student

digs. How is this going to work? So my world was

blown to pieces, but because we'd hit rock bottom,

we got to that place where it was like, how is

this going to last? I was more prepared to take

the gamble, but it moved us into a totally

different place and it was a place that was really

blessed. we were able to recognise that having got

married at 22 didn't mean to say we had to become

middle aged. And I think I'd almost gone to that

place. I'd almost gone, right, this is settled,

this is sorted. And actually we rediscovered being

young. So he was at university, I was working, but

we both partied together. I created a life there

that wasn't entirely wrapped up in his, so that he

had some freedoms as well as being a student. And,

yeah, it was fantastic. It was. It was like

starting again. So I would say to anyone getting

married, if something feels like your worst

moment, don't stay in that. Recognise that that

could transform. And don't be scared to ask for

help, because I think that's the thing. You need

allies and you need people who you can go to who

you believe won't judge the other person. So, you

know, find your allies. I hope I can be that to

you if ever you need it.

>> Julia: I look forward to it. I'm just. I was just kind of

laughing to myself because I've only ever known

James as a teacher and I couldn't imagine him

being anything other than a teacher. So when you

said about it surprised you, I was like, wow.

>> Sarah: I guess that's the thing about marriage that I'd

also say is that, the person you marry, they're

not gonna be that person for the rest of their

life. You know, actually you're marrying their

future, you're marrying who they become. And

that's, That's putting a lot of trust in someone,

really. And the reason I didn't see James in that

light was. Cause I think initially James didn't

see himself in that light. I think he didn't have,

as I say, the qualification to go into teaching.

He had a well paid job, but he wasn't enjoying it.

And suddenly there had been the. We had always

both shared the, as I say, for working with young

people and seeing them achieve their best. And we

were both doing that through our youth work

together. So I didn't see the teaching thing

coming in, but thank God it did, because, as you

say, he's been a teacher now for many years. And

it's one of the things I'm really, really proud

about for him. He's a great teacher.

>> Julia: So how do you grow wisely together?

>> Sarah: How do we grow wisely together? That presumes that

we're wise. Generally, how do we grow together? I

think faith is important to us. Don't want to give

anyone the impression that we're regularly praying

on our knees at home. Maybe we should do more of

that. I have great admiration for those who do,

but we've been steadfast in terms of. We go to

Sunday mass together. We have both worked in

Catholic settings. We spend a lot of, our time

talking about church politics and we really care

deeply about the church and unity and all sorts of

things that we, we really desire for the church.

So faith has been really important. Interestingly,

I was having a conversation with my daughter who

doesn't go to church currently, and she's going to

become a mum in December. And she's very grateful

for the foundation she has and she's lovely

because she says that to me now. And, there were

times when that wasn't going to be the case. You

know, it was like, I'm never going to be like you.

And now she's very like me, you know, almost more

than me, if you know what I mean. So she's like,

I'm not going to have my children on screens all

the time. I'm going to be strict and they're going

to have good foundations and boundaries. But I

said to her, you know, what you're not recognising

is that the foundation of all of your upbringing

was our faith. And I know you're struggling with

that at the moment. I know it's not the important

thing for you and that this is your life, not

mine, but I do have to tell you that that was

underneath everything. And when you say, how did

we grow together? That's James and I. Faith was at

the heart. It's part of who we are. It's not extra

to our lives, it's just there. and as I say, it's

not always as visible, maybe to people as it

should be, but that's how we grow. I think we've

got things that we recognise about one another, so

we both do very extrovert jobs, but as we've got

older, we've become very introverted, so we're a

bit hermit, like, and we love nothing more than to

go home, close the door and not let anybody in,

and just be together. And that growing old

together is actually. It's just such a blessing

because when I was younger, I. I didn't always

have that confidence that we would grow together.

I knew he'd committed to marriage for life, as I

had. But comparison of other people's marriages,

jealousy, things that, come in and they can

destroy. I didn't always have that confidence.

And. And it's lovely to be 34 years married, to be

able to go home and just be with each other and

close the door and have no one else around. So,

yeah, we've grown, we've changed. And, yeah, faith

is there always.

>> Julia: So you were just saying about comparison. And I

guess it's quite easy to compare, like, your life

as, whether you're married or not, to someone

else.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Julia: But I imagine in marriage that makes it, like,

even harder when you see other people married and

you think they're the perfect couple. That's what

we should be like.

>> Sarah: Yeah. Also, you come from a family, and both of us

come from families where our parents had strong

marriages and you look to their marriages and you

say, that's what marriage looks like. Because

that's really your only honest experience of

marriage. And my dad, my mum says, oh, your dad

ruins things for all other men in as much as he

was a Friday evening, buy chocolate, buy flowers.

Every week. He was a Christmas, here's your

slippers and there's tickets for Paris inside. And

he was a real romantic. I, know it's just unfair.

isn't it? In many ways, he was fantastic. James is

not a romantic. And so I had to learn that hearts

and flowers isn't real marriage. You know, that's

not a measure of marriage. And one of the biggest

compliments I've ever had on my marriage came from

you. I was rushing around organising things at an

event, as often I do, usually losing my phone

somewhere, etc. But when James is there, I go,

where's my phone? And it's there. He's got it.

He's put it in his pocket because he knows I lose

it. He comes over with a bottle of water because

he says, you haven't drunk enough yet. And he

makes sure I've got some food. And you said, I

need to get me a James. And I just thought, thank

you, Julia, because that was such a compliment.

And as I say, comparison, even at this age, you

can look at other people and you can say, we're a

bit odd. We're not quite where we should be, you

know, are we doing all the things that we should

be? So when you gave me a compliment, it was

really. It really made me feel, actually, somebody

has seen this and I don't think everyone does, so

thank you for that.

>> Julia: That's all right. I will, say that that raised my

bar of my standard of men that day. I was very

much.

>> Sarah: James will be very pleased.

>> Julia: I was just like, I need. Because I think I'm

probably very similar to you when at work events,

I'll go into. Because that event was Flame, which

is where you have 10,000 young people. And we were

running sessions where we were responsible for

about 40 volunteers. And so I think both of us had

got into that mindset of, like, okay, we need to

make sure the volunteers are happy and

comfortable. And so we were doing something for

someone else. And then he came and did that for

you. And I was like, that's, that's what I need as

well in my life.

>> Sarah: Yeah, he's, he's, he looks after me very well.

>> Julia: Yeah.

>> Sarah: He's the cook, so I never cook. something to do

with him not eating my food as well, but he is the

cook and he will come out at midnight and pick me

up somewhere. He, will make sure that, I'm always

driven to the station in the mornings and things

like that. They're not big, huge visible signs.

They're not hearts and roses by any means, but

actually they're really solid. They're really

generous. And I've grown more grateful as I've got

older for those things that really to, to me are,

true signs of love.

>> Julia: I guess it comes also down to love languages as

well. So it's like the five love languages are,

words of affirmation, quality time, physical

touch, acts of service and gift giving.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Julia: And so it sounds like when you were comparing to

your mum and your dad, the love language, there

was the gift giving.

>> Sarah: Yes.

>> Julia: Where your love language. I don't, or at least in

this moment, is the acts of service.

>> Sarah: Yes.

>> Julia: That James is showing his love to you by the acts

of service in your appreciation.

>> Sarah: Definitely. And I think, I'm a natural exhorter.

So I. My words are words of affirmation. I think

are the way I show love. and I think also turning

up for people. You know, I was saying earlier, you

know, you only have to ask and I'll be there. that

is how I show that I care about people. and James

knows that anything, whenever I'll be there, I

have done more careers talks in his schools. I

have done more, turning up and, and, going to

netball matches and supporting teams that I've

never met before. I've been to dance shows, etc.

He knows I'll always turn up. So, yeah, I think

that's part of, how I show love as well.

>> Julia: I think one of the things I've learned as we're

preparing for marriage is how you've got to learn

what the other person's love language is and show.

Because that, the easiest thing for us to do is to

show love the way that we like to receive love.

But that doesn't mean our Partner will always

appreciate the way that you show love.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Julia: Because they might like to receive in a different

way. And so I guess with that learning I've

learned in some ways I need to not think so much

of myself, but think of my partner. And I'm

guessing that's even more so in marriage.

>> Sarah: Yeah, I guess it's, it's that sense of self

sacrifice in some ways. I don't like the word

sacrifice because that feels like it's a pain in

some way. I don't find it painful to be

sacrificial for James, you know, and do things for

him. I, that's what I want to do. but yes, you're

right, you have to learn that. And, and you learn

that as you grow together, you learn more about

those things that the matter to the other person.

so initially I was all about big gifts and, big

birthday celebrations. my family will tell you

that I'm all about the celebration. I'm all about

the event. that's not James. It's just not James.

To the point that we're talking about, well, next

year on his birthday, we'll just walk past it, you

know, we'll go out for dinner, but we're not going

to make a big deal because actually he doesn't

enjoy it, you know, so I'm still learning and

still shooting myself in the foot on occasions,

you know. yeah, we still learn. And, just because

I love an event doesn't mean to say he does. And

just because I want everybody around me doesn't

mean to say that that's his thing. so yeah, you

learn. And as I say, sacrifice feels like it's

painful. I don't find it painful. I want to do it.

so yeah, that's what I would say.

>> Julia: I'm just thinking that's really beautiful that

after 30 plus years of marriage you're still

learning about each other.

>> Sarah: Oh, gosh, yeah, because we keep changing, you

know, we're just about to go into another stage of

life, you know, being grandparents. Very excited.

so, yeah, everybody in my life knows, that we're

going to be grandparents. but even that is

learning about one another. So, I know he'll be a

brilliant granddad or grandpa or whatever he

chooses to be called. At the moment we're getting

G dog and that is not happening. but that's James,

his sense of humour. He won't let you. You know,

he's not going to tell you until the child arrives

what he's going to Be called, that's fine. whereas

I've always known I will be Gran, I'm a fourth

generation Gran. so even this we're learning,

we're finding where we're at. I love watching him

with children, working with children. We do a

summer camp every year. And actually that week is

really special to me because it's the week that I

remember what I fell in love with. getting a bit

choked. But actually watching him at ah, his

absolute best. And I know with ah, a grandchild

he'll be just that person. Unfortunately it means

that Gran will be the boring, sensible one. My

daughter keeps sending me videos of little, babies

running toward their grandma and then running

round them to get to granddad. That's and saying,

that's your life. So, you know, we pretty much

know where it's going. But it will be interesting.

and yeah, we absolutely still growing and

encountering different stages of life.

>> Julia: I was just thinking my parents, so both my

brothers have children and it's quite interesting

seeing them be grandparents to my nephews rather

than being parents to me and my brothers because

they are so different. Things we would never put

away with.

>> Sarah: I'm really looking forward to that.

>> Julia: They just let it go now.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Julia: so, yeah, I guess, that's just to say that you'll

be different as grandparents.

>> Sarah: It's interesting. You know, we grow with each

other, but we're also growing with our children

who are changing. and just watching my daughter go

through becoming a mum, she's changed, you know,

and I'm loving it. She's, we're very close. and I

feel closer now to her as this is going on. so,

yeah, we're both, I think that was the other thing

right from the beginning. James and I were always

going to be family people. and I guess if you

asked either of us what's our greatest achievement

in life, it would be our children. and yeah, so

everybody gets very bored. I talk about them a

lot.

>> Julia: No one gets bored of hearing about them.

Is there anything you wish you'd done differently?

>> Sarah: Oh, gosh, no, I think if I'm honest, whilst I was

in it, whilst I was in the painful times, the

times when I was jealous, the times when I was,

comparing. I'd love to have not been in those

times because it's painful, but now, now, no, I

wouldn't change it. We're where we are because of

those things. And whilst I'm saying, you know,

it's lovely we're learning about each other

through change, about becoming grandparents and

things. I'm also really intensely aware of the

fact that we've got ageing parents. my dad died,

sadly when he was 61, so mum was a widow at my

age. and so we both got to encounter. We know that

there's going to be those issues in life as well.

So you don't, you don't wish them, but you

encounter them and you grow together. James was

incredible during the time my dad was dying. Was

brilliant, you know, in the way he allows me to

support Mum now. And, yeah, I think it's never

finished that growing together, because you don't

know what that person's going to become through an

experience. but I'm confident in it in a way that

I wasn't when I was younger. So, no, I wouldn't

change anything in the moments I probably would

have.

>> Julia: How do you get through the hard times together?

>> Sarah: I think knowing how to respond to whatever the

situation is, because, you know, the other. So one

of the hard times, I, I was doing my masters just

during the time my dad was dying. and it's one of

the very few times James has really shouted at me

because I just went, I'm not going to the library

today. I can't do this. This is not, you know,

this is not gonna work. And he knew, and I don't

know how he knew, but this was the time to go, get

yourself out of here. This is now getting silly.

You can do this, you know, and really gave me a

talking to in the way that he is not naturally

given to. but it got me out the door. But then

when dad was dying, he was just sat next to me

holding my hand. So how do you get through the

hard times? I guess loving each other, knowing

each other, and being prepared to do what the

other one needs.

>> Julia: So what have been the joys?

>> Sarah: Without doubt, having our children, that's been

the most joyous thing. And supporting each other

through work, seeing we're really blessed. Both of

us are youth workers. He's a teacher, but he's a

youth worker at heart who does teaching. Seeing

the seeds that we've been part of, planting grow

and develop. You know, it's not credit to us or

anything that these people that we've worked with

are amazing and some of them do incredible things.

But it's a joy, it's a real joy to have been part

of that journey. And we, we've done a lot of that

together. We've been catechists together, for

confirmation. We've worked for Brentwood Catholic

Youth Service and volunteered for them. And both

this worked at one stage or another for the youth

service. But even, you know, his pupils, he comes

home and tells me about, you know, when he comes

and tells me they've done this or that the other.

They're the real joys, you know, it's where we

both shine and where we both have that shared

love, for the work. But children, our children

beyond everything. That would be what we would

say.

>> Julia: So what do you wish he knew before you'd got

married?

>> Sarah: Okay, so there's help, and you can ask for help.

And it's a good thing to ask for help. I'm a real

advocate for counselling because sometimes you

need somebody external who's objective to be able

to help you get to that understanding of where the

other is. I wish I'd known that it's okay to ask

for help. I was saying earlier that part of our

marriage prep was really very much given to the

fact that two young Catholics getting married

people put us on a pedestal. Oh, isn't it

wonderful? Isn't it lovely? And that meant we had

harder to fall and higher to fall, if you know

what I mean. when things went really badly wrong

and we had to hide it because our marriage had

been really public and our failure felt like we

couldn't be ourselves in that situation. So I wish

I'd known it's okay to ask for help. It doesn't

matter what everybody else is thinking or it. You

shouldn't. That shouldn't be your guiding thing.

And comparisons are killer. There are different

ways of showing love than just hearts and flowers.

I think they're the things that. The things that I

wish I'd known.

>> Julia: M. And what are you most grateful for?

>> Sarah: I'm most grateful for James, without question. I'm

grateful. I'm grateful to be in my 50s, married to

someone I love, having two children I'm proud of.

And, yeah, I'm grateful that through this, James

has always been there, you know, in church, beside

me every Sunday. That really mattered, too. And,

yeah, I'm grateful for the lives we've had, for

the jobs we do. I'm grateful for the failures

we've had as well. Because as I said before, it

was in that failing and in that falling that we

got to the best place we could be.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. As I

prepare to get married, I know this episode is

going to stay with me, especially in how to get

through the harder times. How about you? We'd love

to hear how Sarah's story resonated with you. And

why not also tell us if you're facing an

experience you wish you knew how to look at

differently, it might just be something we can

help with. You can find out more about this and

other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again

for listening. I hope you'll join me again next

time on Things I Wish I Knew.