Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.
Andy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of page 94 this
week, coming to you live from the Cheltham Literature Festival.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here on stage at Cheltham with Helen
Lewis, Ian Hislop and Adam McQueen.
We are here once again to discuss.
The last mag.
The next mag.
We better start with the front cover of this week's magazine, uh,
Trump's Gaza Triumph, the main, uh, slogan at the bottom of it world.
Apologizes.
He's not a naughty boy.
He's the Messiah.
Do we all owe Donald a huge, huge apology for all the years of jokes?
Ian: Yes.
And we're going to issue it through our lawyers.
Um, it's official.
I actually put in a cart in by Griselda.
she's one of our cartoonists, and she'd drawn a figure looking
surprisingly like me, in front of a newspaper saying, East, peace.
And the caption was, oh, bloody Trump.
Uh, which I'm afraid summed up quite a lot of it.
there was also a, a, a stopped clock.
I think the speech in the Knesset was.
Quite extraordinary.
Helen: I watched all of it too, just because I, at no point did you
know where it was gonna go next.
Ian: That's unlike Trump.
what do you think the American audience made of that?
Helen: I mean, I went to a couple of Trump rallies last year, and I don't
think people listen to a word he says.
I think it's just, it's like going to a kind of rock
concert or something like that.
Right.
And they would just, there would be occasional bits that you'd do and
he'd be like, oh, like, you know, like sort of playing Freebird, but
they'd be always doing the wall, Hey.
And then you'd sort of tune out and go and get some snacks in between.
So I imagine it was something rather similar in the NASA, to be honest.
Ian: his main complaint seemed to be that everyone else had spoken for too long.
I, he literally said, yeah, good speech, but a bit long.
And they'd showered him with praise for hours and hours.
and then he decided the best thing to do was also shower himself with praise.
Obviously everyone's saying isn't, isn't it good?
You know, the first two points of the 20 point plan Yeah.
Have been achieved nearly, that leaves quite a lot to go and,
and quite a lot to go wrong.
Adam: Did you see the truth social thing he put up after his chat with,
uh, Putin and he said, this is the great accomplishment of peace in the Middle
East, something that has been dreamed of for centuries and you think you've got.
Two and a half of the 20 points.
There's quite a long way to go.
You might not, but it is very much his style, isn't it?
That basically if he says something, that's it and it's done.
Helen: I mean, he's got two main qualities.
One, he is a, a bully, and two, he's completely unreasonable.
And those, it turns out, were an incredibly good match for this situation.
So the, the, the, the kind of key moment really came when, um, Israel bomb Qatar.
And, uh, tr do you ever see that amazing clip where he just came out and for once
he was, he wasn't like camp fake angry.
He was actually angry.
He went, they've been fighting each other for so long, I dunno
what the fuck they're doing.
And it was just like, kind of, it had the exact to of your dad
going, I don't get who started it.
I will stop this car.
I swear I'll turn it around.
We won't, the services, I'll, I'll drop you off there.
Um, and then there was this extraordinary photo that came out where.
And I wish there was video of this.
He's got Benjamin Netanyahu, um, prime Minister of Israel with him in the,
in the Oval Office, and he's holding like an old rotary dial phone and he's
got Benjamin Netanyahu on the phone to I think the Emir of Qatar going,
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sir. Sorry.
Country center.
I went against her and, and, and that was just the, that was the kind of
extraordinary moment I think that Donald Trump felt that he had been
personally made a fool of by Israel.
Andy: we, we are saying this is an actual achievement.
'cause I tend, I tend to take sort of whatever Trump says, not as non gospels.
You know, I say, well if he has, if he is claiming his properties in the Middle
East, then he definitely won't have done but, but there does seem to have
been a bit of knocking heads together,
Helen: provisional achievement.
Right.
And he's got the hostages home.
The ones who are still alive.
And also he has made there to be a ceasefire, which has allowed
some aid to get into Gaza.
Yeah.
Which is incredibly important.
So even if it doesn't hold that, those are some achievements.
And I think that's, that's the kind of, that's the credit I'm willing to give him.
I I'm, I'm just gonna take a wild outside bet that he probably hasn't
solved the Middle East forever.
Just call me a cynic.
Adam: Yeah, you're a cynic.
Yeah, but it doesn't matter 'cause he's onto Ukraine now that's.
That's, that's the weekend's job is just to sort all of that out instead.
Ian: Yeah.
He'll add that.
I mean, we did put on the cover, you've gotta hand it to him and then another
boy say what the whole of Garza, um, which, which again may happen.
if the redevelopment into Garza Largo actually comes off, um,
there will be this, this sort of visionary Middle Eastern dream.
Well, Tony Blair's gonna be running it, hasn't he?
the trouble with Trump is there is no loyalty.
So someone asked him, you know, the moment on the plane where he
appears from the toilet door, um, and never quite understood why he
has to do this and give an interview.
Head comes around and someone said, are you gonna put, you
know Tony Blair in charge?
And he goes, yeah, I dunno.
A lot of people don't like him.
Huh?
We could have told you that for free.
Andy: Helen, I mean, you cover American Matters a great deal.
Um, and you, you, you fly back and forth quite a lot.
You see a lot of it.
So, uh, one of the things you wrote recently, um, after an
exciting experience, uh, at the Riyad Comedy Festival.
Was that America is becoming more Saudi, just as Saudi is
trying to become more American.
Helen: Well, so Saudi Arabia is going through some immensely
quick process of change.
You know, it has Deis Islamized de Haris in the last 10 years
under its elder millennial Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
I'd like to say that as another, a fellow elder millennial.
Finally, we're getting to run the world and it turns out we're quite bad at it.
Um, but it basically, so I didn't have to cover my hair.
I didn't have to wear an A bear.
They are now having.
Jimmy Carr, the sign of progress.
Uh, you know what they say?
Jimmy Carr, hoer of Democracy.
Um, so, you know, and it was, it was just extraordinary that
you had And Louis CK as well.
Um, Jack Whitehall.
Jack Whitehall, yeah.
Um, obviously, basically they
Andy: now have to suffer like we do.
That's the, you don't, at least if you go to a Jack White hole
gig in the uk, you can drink.
I think that is an important, uh.
None of my
Helen: friends were that sympathetic to me going up there and I was like,
I don't think they'll get tortured.
And then I said, well, I'm going to a Jimmy Carl gig.
So,
Andy: but this, this point of yours about America becoming more Saudi is it Right.
Is a fascinating one.
Under Trump.
Helen: Under Trump.
So the, my point about that is when you go to Saudi Arabia, now it's full
of almost empty malls, as if they're waiting for everybody to turn up.
There's a Jamie's Italian in Riyad.
Sort of just waiting for families to be disappointed by overpriced pasta, right?
If you build it, they will come.
Ian: There are other overpriced pastors are available,
Helen: any of them.
But, uh, so at the same time, all of those American brands are obviously piled in.
You know, Christiana Ronaldo was there.
Mr. Beast is over there.
Last weakness.
Riyad fashion festival.
Everybody's just taking a bit of that Saudi cash.
But at the same time, the other thing is happening in the other direction,
which is that America is getting rid of the rule of law, the idea of
a kind of fair trial of your peers.
And the other thing is sending random members of your family
to do foreign affairs work.
So there's a great line in my colleague Mike Atlantic colleague Graham Woods piece
about Jared Kushner going over there.
And the Saudi says to him the idea of sending your unqualified son-in-law
to do quite important business.
We're okay with that over here.
We don't think that's weird.
So, you know, you're having this and, and if you talk to people who work with.
Some of those Gulf monarchies, particularly God on
Ian: Prince Andrew was a trade in for Right,
Helen: exactly.
Maybe just saying an apology to Prince Andrew.
Um, but they will, they will say that, that, that the, the people in the Gulf
like dealing with the Trump White House, because they don't turn up and get a
lecture about human rights abuses anymore.
It's just basically like, would you give us some money?
And in exchange you can have a Trump tower.
Right.
It's pure foreign policy.
American foreign policy has given up.
Perhaps it was always a delusion, that idea of being a kind of the
world's policeman or bringing a force for liberal democracy.
And now it basically is let's, you know, let's talk business.
So Qatar, for example, is now a huge ally of the US and it's gonna be, well, not
only to give Donald Trump that claim, right, but it's, it's gonna be allowed
to build an air base on American soil.
So dearly, deeply entwined with Trump's business interest.
He's got huge crypto interests in the Middle East.
Crowd: Mm.
Helen: Um, and so basically the, the person we should be doing an apology
to really is naked, corrupt capitalism.
Andy: Ian, I'll organize that,
Helen: put, put that on the cover next time.
Andy: Um, we've got move on in just a, a couple of minutes to
our next section of the show.
Are there any, are there any more thoughts that we haven't expressed about Trump yet
that maybe you'd like to before we do?
Helen: I look forward to the day.
I'll never have to have a thought about Donald Trump ever again.
Andy: Yeah.
Helen: But I fear it may be for some decades to come.
Adam: Well, Ian, is it gonna happen?
Is he gonna go for a third term?
Do you reckon, Helen, you've spent time over there?
Helen: I think he absolutely wants to.
The only thing that's on our side is time.
He's 79 years old.
He's a lot less healthy this term.
And I think people laugh when I say this, but he's a lot less
coherent than he used to be.
Ian: Yeah.
Helen: But the thing that's fascinating to me is that JD Vance, the vice president
and everyone, everyone hates him.
So you're getting that classic second term president dynamic where there's an obvious
heir apparent, but also a lot of other people are thinking, I could have a go.
I could have a, and I think that will be.
He has to keep talking about whether or not he's gonna do a third term,
and there are Trump 2028 hats that they keep sending to Gavin
Newsom of California, for example.
He has to keep that as an idea to kind of keep the party together,
because at the moment, being a Republican is incredibly simple.
You don't have to have any particular thoughts on policy.
It's just do you believe in dear leader enough?
And that's the one thing you have to say as a Republican and
everything else is off the table.
And of course, as soon as that breaks down and there's some idea of a post-Trump
future, there are big divisions in that party about what, what, what
they should do in terms of policy.
But at the moment it's a, it's a non policy party.
Adam: So basically he's just holding things together with
the force of his personality.
Helen: The shit like sort of
Adam: Tito in Yugoslavia or something.
It's all gonna fall apart after him.
Helen: Exactly.
Adam: Right.
Andy: Well look, we should, we should turn from, from Trump and
the Republicans to the uk, uh, from.
From Trump and you know, a party which has no obvious heir, apparent, uh, to labor.
Ian: I think it's very, very unfair on Andy Burnham
whose performance at the Labor conference was quite extraordinary
in terms of incompetence.
And if that's a bid to lead.
I was impressed.
Adam: The thing is, he didn't, he managed not to pose with a banana, which
was David Milliman's big, big mistake.
Do you remember that one?
Yeah.
But he's weird with labor.
How you get these, he parents who just turn up and get talked up from about
three weeks always as the, as the great big thing that's gonna take over.
And then it just sort of fades away awfully, doesn't it?
Helen: I'm gonna say something really cruel about Andy Burnham, but I had
to live through a previous Labor Party conference where he turned up going, well,
if you don't want care you can have me.
But that.
He didn't beat Jeremy Corbin in 2015.
Right?
He had all of the advantages of being this, you know, the
establishment center, mainstream, sensible candidate, and guess what?
He couldn't connect with people in the way that Jeremy Corbin
did, and he didn't win then.
And now he's on his third go round at having a crack at it.
I just, at some point.
Adam: He could, he could throw his hat into the ring to lead,
um, Jeremy and Saltan and, and Sarai salt's party, couldn't he?
I mean, they're not, they're not doing a great job of it themselves.
The third co-leader.
Great.
Andy: Um, but I, I suppose the question I wanted to ask all three
of you is really how did things get this bad, this fast, uh, for labor?
Because the, the, the levels of.
Unpopularity across the country are, are, they are extraordinary.
And it, it, it's, it's quite a remarkable set of figures when you look at it.
And the really interesting thing is something, something has changed.
So if you look, uh, at every election since 1983 and what
happened afterwards to the, the popularity of the relative parties.
Every time, um, the governing party loses popularity.
Their, their popularity slides a few points down the scale, or, you
know, five or 10 and the, the Chief opposition party rises up the scale.
This is the first time since, since all those records, uh, since 1983, where both
labor and the conservatives have suffered a drop in popularity since the election.
Now that's obviously because of the rise of reform, but it is quite striking to
see, and LA and Labor slide has been.
Really precipitous since then.
how has it got so bad so quickly for them?
Ian: Uh, well, I think it's, it's disappointment.
whereas often someone says, you know, there's a new conservative leader, and
you go, oh, well, But with Stawa, people thought this was going to be different.
And obviously if you come in with a, you know, huge majority, there
is a big burden of expectation, um, particularly after, you know, a long
period of rule by the opposition and they disappointed really fast.
Adam: But the really odd thing this is, isn't it, they came in saying,
everything's gonna be rubbish.
It wasn't like they were promising, kind of like a golden unicorn for everyone.
They basically said The country's in a really bad state.
It's gonna be pretty disastrous.
We're gonna have to really, really rescue it.
You're in for a really bumpy ride.
Still managed to disappoint even after that.
Ian: Um, and I, I think, you know, a lot of people, a lot of eye readers were,
were limbing up to say, ugh, typical.
You know what, you're having a go at the labor government.
Are you, what do you want the Tories back?
Which is what people usually say when there's change of
government, of private eye.
This time they just said bloody labor, and he thought then he got in yesterday.
Um, the speed of it was incredible, but it was, I mean, it was the
suits and the glasses and the immediate, um, freebies, which was
sort of absolutely extraordinary.
I mean, if, if you've come in on a wave of people being disillusioned
and disappointed on, you know.
Um, PPE equipment, any number of, um, sort of, uh, sleaze stories.
Then the first thing you do, literally the first thing you do is give an
enormous gift wrapped cake, um, to the opposition and to the, um, uh, Tory
papers to say, you are just as bad.
And even if you aren't just as bad.
'cause the, the amounts were never quite the same.
You know, we haven't got the Baroness moan figure yet.
But I do, we certainly haven't got the money and we're never gonna, yeah.
Um.
But I think that that was amazing.
And then you went, I mean, we know this, you, you went straight into winter Fuel,
so doing exactly what the opposition, um, did, which you criticized, and then
choosing as a flagship policy, something that's going to make you unpopular.
These, these are not forgiven easily.
Helen: I mean, I've got a very simple explanation of this.
So Tony Blair likes to quote Lee Quaye y, who's the leader of Singapore,
saying basically, if you've got 2% economic growth, everyone's happy.
If it's under 2%, everyone's unhappy.
And we have had, since the financial crisis, basically stagnant wages,
Crowd: right?
Helen: At the same time, we've had an aging population, which means we just
to even stand still in terms of both NHS provision and pension provision,
just had to find more and more money.
Out of taxes.
And so I think people just feel like things are a grind.
They don't feel like things are on the, the upswing.
Crowd: Yeah.
Helen: Um, and I, and I don't know if it's, it's a lot more complicated than
that in that labor came in saying we are gonna get economic growth going.
And people don't feel that.
Yet.
Adam: I think that's true because I mean, when Blair came in in 1997, it,
there was a feeling and they had more of a feeling of purpose and mission
than this government have ever had.
But also there was a sort of upswing in the mood of the country,
which I think was largely down to economic things, that the economy
was kind of improving at that point.
And I remember at that point, John Major and a lot of people
from his administration saying, well, actually it was us.
That did that, we kind of built it, it was like, yeah.
But you did do that after crashing it in black Wednesday beforehand, didn't you?
I mean, you did go dang to go up again.
Yeah.
But, um, it, it's a real benefit from, you know, if you are the person that
happens to be standing when the, when the economy goes into an upswing,
uh, you can take the credit for it.
Helen: The sympathetic view is that there's a terrible hangover.
From austerity having basically hollowed out public services.
So they need a huge level of investment, like upfront capital investment.
There's a hangover from the so-called Boris wave of immigration in which Boris
Johnson, with his typical attention to detail just had no idea what was going on.
There's the fact that, um, you know, after Brexit, the, the goalpost immediately
then moved to the convention on human rights, and that small boats have really
not been solved as a, as a problem.
And the fact that if you are under 45, you're paying half of
your wages out in rent like lots.
That's the situation lots of people are in, and lots of people are in
that situation, not just in London and the Southeast, but, but elsewhere
of thinking, will I be able to have the kind of life that my parents had?
Um, you know, that and, and, and all of that is the kind of everything,
basically British politics just went wrong at the financial crisis and it's
never quite dug itself out of that hole.
Andy: I hope you're all feeling cheerful about this.
Yeah.
Um, but this, it, it's really interesting because what,
what you're saying is kind of.
That this is not specifically a labor thing, it's that labor, you know,
made some promises about reform.
Lowercase, uh, are, um, in the hope of getting elected, got elected things.
They have not been able to restart 2%, 3% economic growth a year.
Is this just not going to be a, an easily governed country?
Because we will keep on electing people who promise they'll change things.
I, you know, I suspect reform uppercase are, uh, don't have.
The answers to solve all of these like deep structural problems.
Do you think?
Not Andy.
No, I, I'm sorry.
I'm, you know, I'm, I know I'm, I'm a bit edgy on this podcast, but like,
Ian: I, no, I like the idea that, that, that, um, they changed their mind on tax.
Immediately, I mean, even before they've got it, usually
people wait a bit for a uturn.
But, I mean he has years to promise that he's gonna have massive tax cuts and then
he said, oh, well maybe we won't now.
Andy: Right?
But aren't we just becoming less governable as a country because
we've got deep seater problems that there is an easy fix for.
Ian: but you could say we're gonna try and fix them rather than say, what can I
think of that everyone will really hate?
Um, and it.
The collapse in Popularities.
I mean, other governments have come in and economically have not done very well, but
they don't have these figures, do they?
Adam: They have made some weird decisions along the way.
I mean, as you say, the winter fuel thing.
I mean that and then trying to revise Pit Bennet, I mean, to come in and go, right.
Who can we unite the country by Really going after old people.
Everyone hates them.
I tell you.
Ask the disabled as well.
We, we'll target them as well.
That will that That'll work.
Yeah.
Helen: I think if you look at the fact that the, the, this is gonna
be a deeply unpopular thing to say in any room, but check the edge
Adam: of the audience quickly.
Yeah, I know, right?
Helen: Fellow under 60 brethren.
But I, I do think that actually that the triple lock is, is unsustainable.
And I'm just, I'm sorry.
Uh, you know, working at, I'm sorry, but I think, oh, there we
Ian: go.
Helen: And actually, I, I don't have any problem with means testing
the winter fuel allowance either.
And the other problem is that realistically, when
you're talking about house.
Building and, and housing costs, that is also an age related issue.
And it was the one thing that I hoped would readjust the balance under labor.
You know, the Tories were very much, their core vote was over 65 and they wanted to
protect pension incomes and protect, um, the green belt and all that kind of stuff.
And I thought, well, at least labor will come in.
And thus.
Slightly rebalance it towards working age people, but um, as you say, winter,
they, they ham fisted winter fuel so badly in the middle of something else.
I think they're just totally terrified of revisiting any of that.
Yes.
And the,
Ian: the excuse is always offered.
I mean, it was on that and on the inheritance tax that, um, somehow the,
um, comms team had failed to communicate.
What was actually happening and you know, I, I shouldn't have to, you
know, um, accept winter fuel allowance.
I mean, you know, this very old person.
Um, I think I should get cold.
Um, you should burn copies
Helen: of the private iann from,
Ian: well, you never know.
See how sales are.
Um.
But none of that, um, was explained and the means testing wasn't explained.
And the, and the benefit reform was not explained.
And everyone says, well, it's, it's not, it's not the government's
fault, it's their advisors.
It's their PR people.
And in the end, you have to stop making excuses for PR people and
advisors and senior figures and all these people and just say, well,
maybe the leadership is a bit useless.
Yeah.
Um, and they need to, um.
Explain policies, give people a vision, give people a narrative, give
people a reason to vote for them, and those are not negligible skills.
Andy: Yeah, I mean, Stan does have an identity, you know,
he is a human rights lawyer.
Like he's, he's, he's a football fan.
I dunno if you know what his dad did for a living, but he comes from a
relatively underprivileged background.
He certainly wasn't sent to Dulwich College like Nigel Farage.
You know, there is, there is a story there, but it's one that
he's, he's always been slightly resistant and reluctant to tell.
Yeah.
Um, did something amazingly funny happen in the subtitles?
Right.
All right.
We have a. I thought it got more than it deserved.
Um,
Adam: but like someone could just clip that and send it into, we have a
funny cuttings thing and get a tenor.
So, uh,
Andy: but you know, Starr hasn't made a load of money flogging
gold services like Nigel Farage.
I mean, there there is a, there is a story that is, that he is able to tell
but is seeming resistant to doing so.
I do think also they are operating in an extremely hostile media environment,
which, which, you know, is new.
No, I mean, well, sorry it's not new for stama or for labor, but
it is, you know, it's nuisance.
The election.
Ian: Yeah.
Andy: I mean the rear guard action fought by the telegraph, the mail,
the express was, was extraordinary.
Helen: Adam, you write about it a lot and in street of shame, right,
that there is a, there is a phx there that the left has never quite been
able to recreate in media terms.
Well, what
Adam: I'm really enjoying at the moment is the bizarre alliances
that are going on, particularly, you know, this, this story endless.
Really, really targeting Morgan McSweeney, uh, of off the back of
this book, the Fraud by Paul Holden.
Um, and it's been pushed largely by the male and the Telegraph, but Paul Holden
is, is about as Corbe Knight as they come.
You know, he's, he, he works with Andrew Feinstein, who was the guy that
stood against K Dharma in Hogan and St.
Pancreas.
I mean, this really is amazing case of my, your enemy's enemy is your friend.
These are, these are sort of, not, not natural bedfellows are they,
but they're, they're coming at it from, from both, both sides.
. Does anyone under fully understand the Jonathan Powell and China story?
Helen: No.
Adam: Have we got anyone in from GCHQ tonight?
That's good.
No one put their hands up.
You would've been sacked.
Yeah.
I'm a bit lost in the D, but again, this seems like, I mean, of all
the things I'm not think of advice to Kenny Bain off, but if you're
gonna target starer on one thing.
I would say that he's probably quite hot on the proper process
of criminal prosecutions, just as an ex-head of the CPS.
Yeah, that's probably something he kind of knows the details on.
Helen: Yeah.
Adam: and he's
Ian: not very convincing on it.
Adam: He's really convincing on anything.
That's kind of what we've been talking about the last 10 minutes.
Isn't he genuine?
Helen: I mean, genuinely, genuinely loves Arsenal, and if you get him
to talk to about it, he'd just be like, yeah, I, I really like Arsenal.
It's really great too.
IJ he just cannot convey even emotion that, you know,
behind the scenes is genuine.
Ian: But you, you people want to believe that, you know,
Kirstan was absolutely straight.
And, um, you know, his experience as a lawyer means he really does
understand the law and support the law.
And then we end up in a situation with this prosecution where the
Deputy National Security Advisor is somehow seriously to blame.
But the actual national security advisor, Jonathan Powell, had no idea.
Oh, goodness knows.
I mean, he's not there to supervise his de, you know,
his deputy for goodness sake.
Um, and you think, well, why doesn't he know he's the National Security Advisor?
Presumably what we think of China is.
It's his business.
I mean, he's obviously, he's, he's not elected, um, and he's been
appointed, but that is still his job.
Helen: But it's all built on this giant lie, isn't it?
Which is the fact that actually lots of people, if you talk to people in
Whitehall and civil service, they do regard China as a huge threat.
They know it's always trying to hack us.
They know it's always trying to send suspiciously attractive ladies
to lib down party conference.
I genuinely think that happened.
Um, you know, but
Ian: okay, they're not that good.
It was the lib down conference.
Yeah.
Helen: Gotta spread Jeanette wide.
Um, but at the same time, they also know that we are immensely are supply chain.
Andy: Uh, did come up as
Helen: Jeanette Wide.
Andy: Jeanette,
Helen: that is the name of one of the Chinese spies.
Who?
Yeah.
Come on
Andy: guys.
There's not, I'm sorry.
I haven't a clue.
Um,
Helen: anyway, but that's the fundamental hypocrisy is that everybody
acknowledges that China is trying to do, not a hot war against us, but
certainly hostile actions against.
British business is the British state, but at the same time, we really need
them and we'd quite like them, you know, to be on good trade terms with 'em.
So we have to very delicately walk that tightrope and that to me is in
all the back and forth, just exposing the fact that the government can't
maintain a consistent position on China.
'cause it's like, please don't make us be mean to them.
We like iPhones.
Adam: The other thing that's really struck me about that case is kind of how
low rent the stuff they must have been getting was because it was like awful.
Now we are going to infiltrate Tom Togan hat's office and see what Tommy
Tugs is really thinking about and one
Helen: of the
Adam: misinformation that we're trying
Helen: to extract.
Sorry, can I just pause there?
Because every time you've been trying to get the nickname Tommy Tugs to happen,
Adam: I'm going to
Helen: get it there and every time has been ruthlessly cut
out, but I admire your commitment
Adam: every fortnight.
No, but one of the pieces of information they were apparently trying to pick
up from these, these, these two guys was um, whether Jeremy Hunt
was going to go all the way in the conservative leadership contest.
You think just read a newspaper?
I mean,
Helen: there's pages and pages about this.
Yes.
Why not pick up a fortnightly News magazine?
It's not James Bond
Adam: versus
Andy: Blofeld, is it?
No.
So are we, are we just doomed to keep on electing people, being
disappointed and then electing more disruptive actors, if I can put it
Adam: that way?
Basically you're saying, is Nigel gonna win the next election, aren't you
Ian: Sure?
Adam: Yeah.
Ian: And would he disappoint, do you think?
Adam: No.
I mean,
Ian: do you think the depth of talent in the reform party
would, would, would maybe.
Put on a better performance.
I mean, local councils, it's going well.
Yeah.
I mean, you've, I mean, nearly, well, some of them haven't resigned,
Andy: but you've had to, you've had to basically hive off a separate bit
of the rotten Boroughs page solely for the amazing performances that Reform
councilors have been turning in.
Ian: Yes.
And um, you know, a lot of people say, well, if you give them more
publicity, they'll do even better.
Um, and I say, well, but.
Am I not meant to cover the fact that, um, when confronted by, what's
your policy on special needs and potholes, it's Stop the boats.
Um, which again, you can sort of make a case, but eventually they've gotta run
something and they've gotta run something less badly than the previous lot.
which again, I mean, I think that will be the test.
So are you saying if people vote for reform.
Will we be disappointed?
My guess is yes.
Andy: now we, we are at a literature festival and private eye has
a, a strong literary tradition.
Dating all the way back to 1961.
So I think, uh, it's time to hand over for one of page 90 vols legendary quizzes.
Uh, and Adam, you are going to be running this one, I believe, the
grand private eye literary quiz.
Adam: Yes, indeed.
So.
Which poet Laureate began a private eye column, which is
still running to this day.
Andy: I'll just have a wrong guest For a bit of sport, I'll say Robert Sie in 1819.
Very
Helen: nice.
Very nice.
Andy: Yep.
Dryden,
Ian: uh, I remember him in the office.
Um, that's not true.
It was John Beman who started the um, Pelosi column.
Adam: Sorry, I'm just enjoying the fact Kimmy Badden office was saying last week.
Oh, English agrees.
They're no use for anything.
They are brilliant for showing off the things you remember of 20 years later.
It was John Beman, the Nooks and Corners column.
Yes, indeed.
The architecture column, which is still going.
Ian: Yes.
And he handed over to the very brilliant Gavin Stamp, it's
now run by, um, Jane McKenzie.
Yes,
Adam: indeed.
Ian: And, it's almost a sort of a cranny in the magazine itself.
some people think it's the best thing in, in the magazine.
I absolutely love it.
Some people say, oh, why you always wanging on about
buildings that are falling down?
and the answer is because it'd be nice if they didn't.
Um, and also that they weren't set on fire.
uh, no, no, no.
Go on fire.
Go on the phrase Fire.
Yes,
Adam: strangely went on fire.
My
Helen: highly insured pub has gone on fire.
Andy: Yeah, that page is, it's a funny mix of charming
heritage and blatant Aon crook.
Yeah, it's a really odd mix.
Crooks and nooks.
Helen: Look, the people from the Crooked House Pub have, are they,
aren't they gonna have to put that back to the way it was before it went?
Is very funny.
Fire.
Adam: Very, they have, yes.
And there's also a pub in London where they did that.
They, they, they had to put it back exactly with the 1920s frontage
and all the tiling and everything.
One of those victories for Jane and the Nooks and Corners column.
Absolutely right.
Question number two from 19.
77 to 1979, the eye carried very unlikely.
This a gardening column written on the pseudonym of Rose Blight.
But who was the real author?
Helen, I'm gonna throw that one in your direction.
Helen: I've got this.
My brain is delivering like Julian Barnes or someone like that.
Ian: No, no.
Noian.
Oh, you
Helen: think, uh, five James, Jermaine Gr Jermaine Greer.
J
Adam: Jermaine Jermaine Greer Indeed.
Yes.
Seven years after the female Euch.
That was what she was doing.
Uh, the Revolting Garden, uh, it was called, uh, she was recruited
by Richard Ingrams after they appeared on the news quiz together.
Uh, and God, that was must, must a big point that.
She resigned after he wound her up by, uh, threatening to
turn it into a cooking column.
Didn't go down so well.
She's gone off.
Did he basically go and make
Helen: me a sandwich?
Jermaine Greer?
Yes.
Pretty much
Adam: that, yeah.
I see where that trolling happened.
Yeah.
So she
Andy: wrote, she wrote a gardening sort of like gardening.
What was the gardening element?
It was called the
Adam: Revolting Garden.
I mean, basically it was, it was saying, um, tear everything out of
your garden and concrete over it.
So it wasn't the traditional gardening column.
But she's
Helen: retired to run a, a wood in Australia, so right.
Quite
Andy: on brand.
Leave your bush spray concrete over it.
Helen: Andy, that's gonna be on the subtitles if you're not careful.
Andy: No.
There we go.
Got away
Ian: without it.
Helen: Concrete over your bush.
That said,
Ian: thank you everyone.
I think I should be employing the subtitle, right?
Or is this, is this just ai?
Crowd: Yeah.
Ian: Yeah.
Adam: I can't spell AI properly, so possibly not
Crowd: boy has done,
Adam: see, that's learning, that's machine learning.
That is
question number three.
The I resident obituary, EJ Thib went on tour in the 1970s
in the person of long serving.
I joke writer Barry Fantoni, who sadly died earlier this year.
Uh, which real poet did he share the bill with?
Larkin, I can see it now.
Helen: Lads on tour.
LA's on, they're shackles them twosome free.
Adam: Larkin
Helen: Simon Armitage.
Ian: No.
Was it his beat poets?
Was it Horrowitz?
It wasn't
Adam: Horrowitz, but you're in the right area.
Alan Ginsburg.
Ginsburg.
Not that would've been interesting in the travel lodge in Chippenham.
Okay, we're just naming poets now, shall I tell you?
Yeah.
John was Roger McGough presidential Poetry please.
And beat poet and member of the Scaffold.
Yes.
Okay.
SU's Corner, which novelist on the i's 50th birthday in 2011
was Crowned Britain's biggest sued with, at that time a record.
41 entries, Eni SU's Corner, and an entire corner also devoted
to himself alone in 1996.
Ian: I was gonna say Jeffrey Chard.
But then pseudo intellectual's not really his thing.
Pseudo does John Benjamin wanna
Helen: jump in on this one at all?
Any ideas?
Jay McInerney featured a lot.
Oh, will Self.
That's a good guest.
Thank you.
Adam: Well done.
Yes, will sell indeed this audience.
Brilliant.
Fantastic.
Have you ever re rejected a suit for the corner 'cause you felt
it was too profound and moving?
Ian?
Um.
No
Ian: moving on.
No, that's uh, that's what I was just thinking.
I think I did reject when I was a student will self's cartoons Really?
Which he tried to get into.
so it's a student magazine.
I was then running and I feel somehow he's always resented that,
Helen: yes, it's your fault.
He became a novelist
Adam: if you just encouraged.
He could have been just drawing cartoons for us all this time.
Yeah.
Instead went off and became a sued.
Yep.
Another one missed.
Ian: Uh,
Adam: uh, best known for her long running romantic series, air of Sorrows,
charting the Love Life of our present.
Monarch Dame Sylvie Cris First work published in the Eye,
charted another Royal Romance.
Who's and which was it called?
What was it called?
Ian: It was called Love in the Saddle.
Very good.
And it was about Princess Anne.
Adam: Princess Anne and Captain Mark Phillips.
Yes.
Very good indeed.
Yeah.
Ian: Um, again, this was Barry Fanna who came up with this stuff.
, they did these.
Accounts of the royal family as though they were bad romantic novels,
which is a very good approach.
and for years it was Dame Sylvie Krinn, and now it's Dame Head of
Shoulders, who's, um, who's taken on the responsibility of covering.
she now does the King of Troubles.
and they, they're stories about Prince Charles, about Queen Camilla, about his.
Der Barry camp.
Um, so Alan Fitz tightly who, um, is, is the, the last of the Fitz,
tightly as, as it as it happens.
Um, who, uh,
who develops this rich home life?
Uh, his friend, the Vice Admiral and he big Abba fans, um, uh, try
and direct, the Monarch into, um.
Uh, ways of seeing the world that are less gloomy.
and it features obviously Prince Harry and Meghan and, and William and the others.
And it, it's, it, it's a way of, of unserious doing the royal
family, which I, I absolutely love.
I mean, uh, writing Sylvie CRI is incredibly easy 'cause it's just,
I'm sure you could all do it.
Don't, don't, don't let on, um, uh, because, Royal
correspondence are so serious.
they interpret pictures and small details and tiny bits of, gossip
and take it very, very earnestly.
And it's, it's a pleasure to think.
It's probably, probably not what this is about.
Mm. yeah, the first one was Princess Anne.
what was the one after that?
Adam: I'm looking.
Oh, there were all sorts.
Andre Previn, Anna Ford, Esther Ranson, I mean, we mustn't forget.
Um, never too old either.
The Rupert Murdoch story.
Ian: Yes.
Adam: Very, very long running.
How's, is he?
Ian: Yes.
Um, it is just funny the idea of him going on and on.
Um, and.
his latest wife is a, is a sort of life scientist and biologist
who's looking for eternal life.
Um, I'm not quite sure that's what her research says, but I
think that's what it's all about.
and because succession.
Which, um, I'm sure you watched, was so, um, strongly linked, um, to keep the
lawyers happy, um, to Rupert's own life.
We decided it would be funny if Rupert had no idea that it wasn't his own life.
So when he lists his children, it's, it's Lachlan, it's Liz, uh, it's
Kendall Shiv, Kendall Shiv, um, and Tom.
So, um.
Again, it's a, a way of not taking seriously, things that the
papers take very, very seriously.
, And the Murdoch trial, um, in which he tried to, , essentially disown
half of his, well not half of his children, most of his children bar
one 'cause they weren't right wing enough, um, to take over the company.
You'd find difficult that to make up.
Um, and then that failed.
So he's paid everyone off.
and yet he's still
Adam: there.
And we, as I, I keep saying his mum lived to 106, so he is got
a good decade and a couple of wives left in him, me out I think.
Ian: But I did have a sort of Trump moment of, of when he decided to take on Trump.
You suddenly thought, well, God, isn't Murdoch great?
Adam: This is what I mean about your enemy's enemy being your friend, isn't it?
Unlikely Alliance?
Will you, um, will you miss him?
It.
Well, he'll outlive me.
One final literary question, Ian.
Um, we've talked about, uh, Dame Seal, we've talked about three.
Um, is there any sort of book, uh, in which perhaps some sort of yearly
collection possibly available in all good bookshops and in a signing
tent directly after this event?
Uh, in which people could read some examples of this,
this magnificent literature?
Oh, you've got me
Ian: there.
Um, oh yes.
I think I do know what it is.
It's, um, it's the private DiAnn,
hey, um, which, uh, is a selection of all the best jokes of the year.
it won't surprise you that K Stama is on the cover.
Charming look alike, mean alike with the figure of sadness.
Um, and, um, it's, uh, yeah, roundup of, of the years jokes.
Everything's in there.
And it's all written by, uh, private ai, um,
which is, uh, a new technology that we've developed, uh, that involves human beings.
meeting together in rooms and writing.
it's probably won't catch on and it may be a bit late.
it has been a, a pretty crazy year, trying to keep up with the
news cycle, partly 'cause Trump.
Draws, um, the atmosphere out of old news and makes it about himself,
but partly because there's just been so much, um, going on elsewhere.
And so it's got photo bubbles, it's got, um, thread pieces.
It's got my favorite joke on the cover.
Meghan launches a Netflix cookery show.
Lovely picture voice off saying, what are you making?
And she's saying, money.
Adam: And it's even got the joke by Andy that a man was arrested
for holding at a, a demonstration.
So, um, mind how you go with your copies?
Yeah.
Um, yes.
Got any more, Andy?
That
Andy: can get our audience in jail for the evening.
I'm not trying to get anyone arrested.
Well, actually I suppose I am, but not, not read us.
Um, we should, we should come to the questions from the audience because
we've had loads in, um, so, let's start with, uh, one from Jasper, noting the
demographic of the audience here tonight.
Are you confident that you are growing your younger audience to ensure
the magazine's long-term future?
There's one there.
I can see them.
It's all down to you, sir. Yeah.
Ian: Well, as, as I always say, um, I quote the example of, um, In communist
Russia, Stalin going in, uh, to a church which is full of old people.
And he said, ha ha, what will you do when the old people die?
And the priest said, there will be more old people.
Um, and when people want to come to what the eye has to
offer, they're very welcome.
Andy: And also the readership are, are younger than you would expect, I think.
Andy.
That's
Adam: just that you are getting older.
Oh
Andy: no.
Don't it to seem really old when you first joined, didn't.
Right.
Let's have, let's have a, a younger.
Brightly a question.
This one comes from Clive Field, 76 years have you considered increasing
the font size of your publication?
Crowd: No.
Andy: Thank you, Clive.
I think we, we have done Al, we have done already, haven't we?
Ian: And the answer to this is we've done the font size twice, we've increased it.
Um, we've also, I hope you've noticed, run a series of ads for, um, magnifying
glasses, reading lights, Specsavers,
so the, the answer is.
We do try and make it readable, but I think there is partly
people find, as all the surveys show just reading more difficult.
um, but I don't think on the whole, our readers do.
And if we, if we say, look, there's, there's a whole page of type here.
You might have to read it.
I don't think they're gonna be scared.
And certainly not at the Cheltenham Literary Festival.
Yeah.
Um, I do hope, you know, the attention span will be more
than, more than 800 words.
Well,
Andy: can we come on then too?
I really like this question.
Uh, no name from this question.
How does private eye remain relevant in a post-truth world where many get news
from TikTok and similar non-New outlets?
Is that.
Something you consider, something you worry about?
What?
TikTok?
Yeah.
Ian: Yeah.
I just spent a lot of time on there.
Adam: there is a weird function that the is has kind of taken on in that
has become a slight correction center.
I mean, certainly the street of shame pages are just for pointing out what
bollocks that story was in the Telegraph last week and that one in the mail and
what the story really is behind that.
Yeah.
So there is a. It's an attempt to become kind of a reliable
Ian: source
Adam: of
Ian: news at the end of it, isn't it?
And I think that is in itself a service.
It's just we run an awful lot about, um, uh, social media and AB about how, um,
Twitter works and about AI works and.
I mean, I love the story.
Um, in the last issue of, of, um, the video that Genrich had made, sort
of wandering around, um, supposedly in Hansworth where he wasn't, um,
saying, I can't see a white face.
And you look at the video and they, they're behind him.
There's three people over there.
Helen: There's a lot of that isn't there about saying you have to do video, you
have to do this, they have to do that.
You have to be on social media.
And actually I think about 10 years ago, people kind of said, I can't
believe the eye not going full bore onto this internet thing.
We've always heard so much about.
No, a lot
Adam: of people are saying that to crack young people, you have to start
doing podcasts and things, aren't they?
I mean, mad.
Helen: But I think that actually weirdly, the internet is now a kind of, it's like
tam's water have taken it over, basically.
Right?
Yeah.
Crowd: It's just, oh
Helen: shit.
Andy: Superb.
Helen: No, but it's true.
Whereas you, if you open up private eye, then there is, that has been written by
actual journalists and, and checked and subbed by other actual journalists and
you know, most of it, you could probably be fairly assured, is actually not just.
Some hallucination of some AI bar and, and that's what I think is a slightly,
in a way, I also think we're heading for this kind of post-apocalyptic future where
people can't pass around copies of sort of underground magazines to each other.
'cause it'll be the only kind of place where you can
actually find things that have.
Interesting and true.
Stop edited.
Yeah, stop edited.
Yeah.
We
Adam: were discussing in the office last week when we were putting
the pages together, weren't we?
And we're saying, what, what would, how could we kind of like ape being
more like a newspaper website now?
And we thought big post-it notes kind of like all over the pages with really
sticky glue on that you really have to kind of pull off to actually get it.
Anything you want us.
See that give much your money.
The, the, the Marrow website, um, uh, experience.
Helen: Yeah.
You turn the page and every, so the page just goes blank and reloads.
Yeah.
That would be a good experience.
We should bring to the magazines.
My magazines crashed.
Andy: Right.
We're entering entry time.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and whip through a few more.
Um, if, and it is a big, if as a panel, you were elected as the next government.
What do we mean big?
If Yes, um, what would be your first acts to improve our country?
Resign.
Great.
Right on we go.
Uh, how can we express support for Palestine without
being called anti-Semitic?
actually someone, someone did get recently arrested for a, uh, they had a
T-shirt that said plaster scene action.
And it was about,
Helen: was it morph?
Was it little morph?
It was morph.
It was a pro
Andy: morph thing.
Yeah.
They were briefly, they were briefly detained and then the police officer
came over and said, I'm incredibly embarrassed and you are free to go.
Ian: I, yes, I mean, I think being.
Being slightly careful about the wording.
If you are an Optim student at the beginning of your life, probably
not a good idea to be filmed.
Chanting about putting people in the ground, put design in
Helen: the ground.
Yeah.
I think that's the, yeah.
When they're
Ian: trying to get people outta the ground.
I mean, just a certain amount of, of care.
Yeah.
Andy: Uh, what intractable problem would you advise Farage to address in
order to win his Nobel Peace Prize?
When he inevitably becomes our glorious leader?
Uh, the crypto?
Yeah.
Well, we know he's got a direct line to Russia, so maybe he'll be able
to sort something out over there.
Helen: start him small on one of those kind of lay landi disputes you get in the
daily mail, work up to something bigger.
Andy: Brilliant.
Um, oh, this is, how do you choose your contributors and
do you get MI five to vet them?
Helen: Yes.
Yes, I've heard that.
Ian: We've all had the tap on the shoulder.
Um, yeah, no, I, we don't on the whole though, I mean, I have had some ex
experience with the security forces.
I dunno if you remember, um, any of you when, uh, the plans for
Desert Storm, um, were stolen.
They were left in a Volvo, um, by a civil servant outside the showroom.
And, uh, I had the admiral who was in charge of the de
notice committee rang me up.
I mean, this is security at a very high level.
And he said to me, is that Ian?
His Lo?
I said, yeah.
And he said, you know these plans for Desert Storm?
I said, yeah.
And he said, you haven't got 'em.
Old boy have you.
Right.
We're gonna stop there.
Thank you so.
Andy: So
Ian: much for coming.
Andy: Thank you for being here.
Thank we.
Hope we've enjoyed the evening.
Ladies, give it up for the one team from.