[SPEAKER_01]: Hey everybody, J.J. Cooper, Jeff Ponce, another baseball America prospect podcast, special edition this week.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to get a couple, it's the world series week.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to get a couple of world series theme podcasts.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to a world series preview, and have a special guest for that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: That will be kind of pretty cool out.

[SPEAKER_01]: But today, we are talking about the Dodgers and the Blue Jays, and kind of just kind of asking the question,

[SPEAKER_01]: How did they get here?

[SPEAKER_01]: But we don't mean how did they get through the playoffs?

[SPEAKER_01]: We mean, how did they get here from the standpoint of how did they build these teams?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to talk some about Vladimir Guerrero Jr. as a prospect and show you Tony as a prospect and the Dodgers rotation and try his savage and things like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to kind of

[SPEAKER_01]: have a little bit of a retrospective look.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I say that, Jeff, I would say I'm guessing that your house was one of the louder ones during game seven because you do have a son who who very much enjoyed the result, it seemed to me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, my youngest son who's the most into sports and particularly baseball had a blast over the last two days.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it wasn't just Monday, we're obviously, they make the world series and at 10 years old, he dropped through his, knees and was very dramatic as if he had waited 50 years for his team to make it, I think I reacted with

[SPEAKER_03]: less figure after the Red Sox broke the curse, but he was really excited.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was honestly a lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was two fun games if you were cheering for the Blue Jays.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've covered this organization for now going on five years here at BA and

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I enjoyed it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I enjoyed this fan base.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think they're one of the, you know, shouldn't be shocked or Canadian, but, you know, one of the nicer fan bases to deal with.

[SPEAKER_03]: They always show up for my chats and, you know, I get an opportunity a couple times a month to talk some prospects on, you know, sports net and some of their free game shows and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm appreciative to, you know, the blue jays and the opportunity that fan base has given me to, you know, cover their team and I'm glad that, you know, some of these positive thoughts I've had over the last couple of years look a little bit a little bit less rosy, I guess, because I do think and we'll get into it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I do think they do things in their own way, they're not perfect, but they are an organization that's been looking to win.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have two organizations here that, again, they are, they look to when they spend and we're going to talk about that some, but I think the perfect place for us to start here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to start with got a piece up at baseball america.com as you listen to this or as you watch this on YouTube that goes through how where we ranked.

[SPEAKER_01]: every player on the projected World Series Rosters, 52 players, we're projecting on, we're basically just saying, we're for now, we'll update it, but the LCS Rosters will serve as our likely World Series Rosters, Boba Shet, we will add on there at some point, if he does get added to the roster that'll add another top 100 prospect to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to just kind of run through the numbers a little bit for that, and then we're gonna talk about the top players from that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, 18 of the 52 players made a top 100, which, and I would say that the names are some of the ones that you would expect.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you have Flatterburger Rojo and your Shoeotani, Clayton Kershob, Lake Snell, Freddie Freeman, Tyler Glass, no George Springer, Kevin Gawson, and these are all top 20 prospects in the game at some point.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, then you also got Wookie Bets was not a top 20 prospect in the game.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of as a bloomer, you know, but we didn't have him in the top hundred.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had a hundred Kirk in the top hundred.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll sniff in the top hundred.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jeff Hoffman, under his him and as Dalton Varsho, Max Scherzer, as you would expect, you know, Anthony Bonda.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's maybe the one that maybe we might not expect now, but he was a big deal at one point.

[SPEAKER_01]: But so those are all top hundred prospects.

[SPEAKER_01]: play a little trivia question with you Jeff, you know, this is going to put you on the spot here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's no way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I will not let you dangle on this hook for long because this one's an impossible question that we'll say.

[SPEAKER_01]: So of the 52 players, there are only 10 who did not rank in a team top 30 at some point.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we do our Dodgers top 30, BlueJs top 30, Marlon top 30 every year.

[SPEAKER_01]: 10 players didn't make that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, three of those never were eligible.

[SPEAKER_01]: We wrote up as international reports, Yary O'Rauderigas, Yoshinobu Yamamoto, and he sunk him.

[SPEAKER_01]: But those players came over as foreign professionals, and we now no longer rank those as prospects.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So now we're down to seven, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: There are seven players who didn't rank in a top 30.

[SPEAKER_01]: KKK Hernandez, we apologize.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is the name that I would say without a doubt.

[SPEAKER_01]: I look back on and that's the one that's regret, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the one that I would say.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would also say, I say a kind of fluff up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Never made a top 30 for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in hindsight, that's a miss on our part.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll own that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But both of those had draft reports.

[SPEAKER_01]: And every one of the other ones,

[SPEAKER_01]: other than this one player had a draft report.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have a report on him for a trade.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I do have a scouting report in there that we did write up of him when he was a minor leagueer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Any guess of who would be the one player who neither was a top 30 prospect and never a draft scouting report, which means you were a top 500 prospect in the draft.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I like this guy as a breakout reliever, but I think he might have already passed his limits, or I want to say that I pushed Kyle to put him on to a list at one point, but I think it's Alex Vesia.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are dead on accurate, well done, sir.

[SPEAKER_03]: I actually did my pre-show work.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I looked at all the stuff that you sent over.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I knew the answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: OK.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you had yours.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Alex Vesia is the only player who never did that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, we have a report on him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was traded from the marvelous to the Dodgers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Did a full report at that point.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he is not one who has a full report.

[SPEAKER_01]: So all of those, we have pulled out scouting reports from that.

[SPEAKER_01]: For everyone, all 52 players over there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, probably 53 weeks.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to put a book of shit on that in just in case it gets added.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you'll have that, but what we're going to start with here are two prospects who are we're at the top of the top of the heap and we're going to start with.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he was a star for what?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously he was the son of Vladimir Guerrero, senior, does help to name recognition there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But on top of that, though, he was glad was the best pure hitter everywhere he ever played.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say the way to put it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And,

[SPEAKER_01]: you look back on it now when I look back on it now it's like there are still even now like in thinking back on it where there are parts of this where you say wow like for instance okay you know we've seen what he's done the postseason and all but his last season in the minor leagues he hit 381 437 636 the 381 is the number that you're like

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, did I hear that right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, players do not hit 380 in a minor league season.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are gushing about Connor Griffin this year rightfully.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking about, did you see that Connor Griffin hit over 320 in the minor leagues, you know, as a teenager?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, in Vlad's case, his version of that is, did you see that I hit

[SPEAKER_01]: 381 in the minors up to AAA as a teenager.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's a, there was a reason that he was in everyone's prospecting game.

[SPEAKER_01]: There was a reason he was a slam dunk minor league player of the year that year.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing that stands out is, here we are.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he has been, he is what everyone expected him to be, which is harder to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say Jeff, then, you know, it, yes, you could say, well, he was expected to be this but doing that is really hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: What like you, you are, you are perfectly positioned in this time to be part of the, the Vladimir and if you see, you know, like when he was really breaking out of prospect, what do you remember what kind of stands out to you from when Vladimir, by the way, and we have a piece of social media post about.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, do you remember whose manager was a double-ite?

[SPEAKER_01]: John Snyder.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I could name, I could name the 2018 New Hampshire Fisher Cats roster, front and back.

[SPEAKER_03]: In fact, so this is this is kind of going back and like, you know, my, my, my story, my background.

[SPEAKER_03]: When I first really tried to make the jump,

[SPEAKER_03]: right before I started Prospects Live.

[SPEAKER_03]: So like months before I started Prospects Live, and I really tried to make the jump from writing about fantasy, dreading about real-life prospects.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was doing a podcast at the time for the website that I was at with Lance Brostowski of Marquis Sports.

[SPEAKER_03]: So Lance was trying to do the same thing that I was.

[SPEAKER_03]: We were kind of getting into it and we were kind of gifted with all these prospects in our backyard because not only was Vlad and Boba Shet and some other players,

[SPEAKER_03]: in New Hampshire.

[SPEAKER_03]: You had Brendan Rogers and Hartford who was a big deal at the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it was always worthwhile to go out to Hartford games if they were playing against New Hampshire and see those guys again.

[SPEAKER_03]: And Raphael Devers was actually in Portland.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that easter league that year was really, really loaded with some big names.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I'll say to this day, I don't think I've ever seen a batting practice in a minor league,

[SPEAKER_03]: I've never seen a hit tool was that that was as good, you know, you quote of the numbers that was after he jumped a triple A and I think he was 19.

[SPEAKER_03]: He hit 406.

[SPEAKER_03]: 402, 402 and double A.

[SPEAKER_03]: He hit 402, you know, for a majority of that season's 60 plus games and then I took one game's 402 by the way, 27 strikeouts over that time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like 14 homers, 14 homers, 27 strikeouts and I think you like this is the other part of that too is the first two to three weeks of that season in particular was incredibly cold in New Hampshire and hard for that I actually remember a game in Hartford where the lineup had Lord of Scurial Jr. was on that team and in the lineup.

[SPEAKER_03]: Jonathan Davis, who was like a lead off hitter for that team and like a bench guy Harold Ramirez.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, boba shit.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the other side was like Rogers, um, Grant, uh, hamps.

[SPEAKER_01]: The, the, the, the, like I, who, yeah, like getting guy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, exactly from their Garrett Hamps and Garrett Hamps and there we go.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're all on the line up that night.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was 25 degrees.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they were piles of snow in the seats because it had just snowed.

[SPEAKER_03]: So he was and I remember there were no homers of the first couple of weeks was a lot of doubles and a lot of it was because he couldn't even elevate so those 14 homers came in a very short window prior to him getting heard at like the end of May or beginning of June

[SPEAKER_03]: He pailed in comparison to Vlad who was, you know, a third baseman kind of first baseman, you kind of knew he was going to end up there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Scott was a shortstop, super talented, hit tool, power, speed, you know, the whole nine, five tool kind of player, and

[SPEAKER_03]: Vlad's bat was just that good and I'll say it's also probably the best combination of hit tool and power that I've ever seen because you even have angles his angles have improved tremendously he's never version of the guy that he was then.

[SPEAKER_03]: But just when you look at a teenager, advanced hit tool, ability to hit any kind of pitch, rarely getting fooled, and just consistently doing damage.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think he's still sort of the 80 for me when I look at hitter.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was the, he was the, he will be the easiest 80 hit tool.

[SPEAKER_01]: That'll play in the minors in my time and doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's take you through the Arena Club Slab Pack experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is part two because Todd Father last week pulled a card that he didn't love yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: You sold it back for actually more than what the Slab Pack cost.

[SPEAKER_02]: This time pulls a card.

[SPEAKER_02]: that he likes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and this is the best part of a Ronnie Mauricio and that's stand out, you know, rookie sensation.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's been absolutely phenomenal.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like the edge of seeing what you're going to get.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I like prospects.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't love him.

[SPEAKER_00]: But seeing this kind of card is actually absolutely beautiful thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know a couple of people around town that would absolutely love that card.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's going to be a lot of conversations going on here for a arena club.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what you do is you have it in your digital showroom.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to hand it out locally, then cool you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ask Arena Club to send it to you and they do or you can sell it back like you see there instant offer for 193 bucks But he's keeping it and you can do a Todd father does by going to arena club dot com slash fouling getting 20% off your first card purchase or your first slab pack purchase Yeah, that's the easiest lady.

[SPEAKER_01]: I remember talking to a scout at that time who said like

[SPEAKER_01]: He was trying to map out all the ways it could go wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, look, it's a big body already.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he could get so big that like it affects his kind of torso rotation ability and all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he said,

[SPEAKER_01]: But that would only mean that he would just be one of the best hitters in the game like he would still like that would not be enough to derail him and it was like if he I remember like people saying like, you know, the value where scouts saying if this guy doesn't hit then I don't know what I'm doing because this is the most clear like when you talk about his angles what that was one of the things so that made it kind of

[SPEAKER_01]: He hit them all extremely hard with a very level swing, which meant, and we see this even now, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, like, the play that you had to use as far as made, I think it was game six.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, as far as had a couple of rough plays in that game, I'm getting game six and game seven, I think it was game six.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there was also the play he made on a play, I think that Vlad hit that ball like 116 miles an hour.

[SPEAKER_01]: He had a ball last night, you know, if we record this in game seven, the Wonderlandier Rosarena, that if you'd have told me that it had gone through a Rosarena's glove, you know, like broke it, awa, you know, the natural or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't like, yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: He just hits the ball on a line as hard as about anybody we'll ever see.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, but it does, the thing that I, that again, that is as a fan of baseball

[SPEAKER_01]: excelling.

[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that just stands out is he has been like just year after year.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has his great years.

[SPEAKER_01]: He has his good years.

[SPEAKER_01]: The bad years for glad junior are good years and the great years are truly great years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing that is also amazing about that is his 26th.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's right.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, my wife had asked me that last night.

[SPEAKER_03]: She was like, how old is he again?

[SPEAKER_03]: And like, Vlad is like a, you know, got in my house, like, you know, no one's got posters and every baseball car and a Vlad jersey and Vlad autographs.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he met Vlad, you know, at a game at Fenway, all this sort of thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: So like, you know, it was kind of funny because she was like, he's that young, huh?

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, yeah, he's only 26.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the type of player he is,

[SPEAKER_03]: 10 more years of this wouldn't, I mean, maybe not at this level.

[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, 10 more years, I would say I would be just a pointer, if we, you know, I will be this a pointer, if we don't get 10 very good years continuing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like 36, yes, I don't know, that is not a reasonable age.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'll say like he's, he's, he's better maintenance now over the last two years than he had ever been previously.

[SPEAKER_03]: to.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it could be a maturity thing of like a young guy just starting to take, you know, his body seriously, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_03]: So not that he's in fabulous shape, but I don't know if the Vlad of three or four years ago would have done stuff like on that past ball the other night, stone home, you know, like,

[SPEAKER_03]: That's the kind of stuff you're seeing from him, even the play at first base is a little bit twitchier than that had been a little smoother.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think that Bowie's well, David Ortiz was kind of like that in terms of like some reverse projection of the body getting a little better with age.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now there were some synthetic elements to that probably, but...

[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's the Blue Jay's, the guy who's, he is what we thought he was.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's, but then we're going to talk about on the Dodgers, the guy who's better than, and anyone, and I can say I can honestly say, I have been following show Heotani's career for, well over 10 years at this point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, I'm trying to think of the first time I heard his name, but it was like when he was in high school.

[SPEAKER_01]: So,

[SPEAKER_01]: was we kept back from this break.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are gonna talk about the guy who has exceeded every expectation possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if anyone tells you, oh yeah, I solved this coming.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't, I don't believe you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, don't believe you.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about that right after this quick break.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Jeff, show you Tony was like,

[SPEAKER_01]: is a one of one in so many ways.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you are new to baseball, you may not even remember.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like this was a guy who absolutely could have come over to the US, straight out of high school and had been a star and had been like a huge signing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he wanted, in part, he stayed in Japan because he wanted to be a two-way player.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he knew he actually had the leverage to have a chance to be a two-way player in Japan.

[SPEAKER_01]: and he did it, and then he comes over to the US, and basically, by the way, if you don't remember, comes over to the US after the collective bargain agreement had just been modified to essentially

[SPEAKER_01]: Keep him from coming over.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know another way to put it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I called it at the time the showy-otani rule because they changed the age at which you could come over as a foreign professional from overseas to the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it went from 23 to 25.

[SPEAKER_01]: And considering that Shoeiotani was, I believe, 23 at that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: That should have been like, wait two years now.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to wait two years, because then you can come over.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could be posted.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can sign for $15250 million dollars.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Shoeiotani, who is one of one, said, nah, I'll just come over now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to play in the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which again, if you do remember, set off the strangest bidding war.

[SPEAKER_01]: that we'll ever see, because we saw, you know, we saw, we see this again, and we've seen this now of Roki Suzuki and a smaller version of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But with Choyotani, it was a case where all teams had a chance.

[SPEAKER_01]: All teams, you know, you had teams, the twins were trying to gather, you know, bonus pool money to make a better offer.

[SPEAKER_01]: You had obviously every team in baseball wanted Choyotani at that time and he chooses the angels.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to flip it back to you for a minute here because the thing that understandably there was a lot of skepticism at this time was show you Tony said that he was going to do something that no one

[SPEAKER_01]: had ever successfully done and to preempt it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would completely agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know if Babe Ruth could have because there was no DH in 1916, 1718, 19, or the entirety of Babe Ruth's career.

[SPEAKER_01]: If there was a DH, would Babe Ruth have pitched and hit, we'll never know, because there wasn't one.

[SPEAKER_01]: So back then, you had to either be an outfit or a picture, and so you'd make each of the right decisions.

[SPEAKER_01]: but no one had ever pulled off being a two-way player.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of any significance, the Brooks Keishnick and Michael Lorenzin and a couple of guys here are there, have done it a little bit, but no one had ever done it as even a regular.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a lot of skepticism on that, but there was also, do you remember, there was a lot of skepticism on just what kind of hitter he was going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it is crazy that here we sit here now seven years removed from that, because that was 2018.

[SPEAKER_01]: And hitting is actually like, as great a picture as he is, he is, I would say one of the, when he's healthy, one of the 15 best pictures in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's fair, maybe 10.

[SPEAKER_01]: But no one would say, okay, if you just, all you can get a showy of Tony pitching, do you want Paul Scheme's, or do you want showy of Tony?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want Terry Scoobler, or do you want showy of Tony?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd take those guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: As a hitter, okay, there's Aaron Judge, and then there's him.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the list, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, what do you think, like, how surprised have you been by just how impressive a hitter he's been.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's the hitting side where, you know, I knew it was fast, I knew there was a lot of power, you know, I had some questions on the hit tool.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think early like those were probably justified.

[SPEAKER_03]: There were some adjustments that he made, you know, once he sort of came over, then was the angels early.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, those offensive seasons weren't always great.

[SPEAKER_03]: They obviously weren't bad, but he's hit, you know, another level really since 2023.

[SPEAKER_03]: From being sort of a very good power hitter with, you know, some swing and miss,

[SPEAKER_03]: to being one of the most dominant forces we've ever seen at the plate over the last whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: three years.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's affected really.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was saying thank you 150, 149 regular season home runs.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then on top of it, you know, you saw the pitching, you know, sort of in 2023.

[SPEAKER_03]: And again, this year, and we've seen it even be even more dominant if they've stretched them out into the playoffs.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it'll be interesting to see what we get next year if we get.

[SPEAKER_03]: you know, another sort of elite two-way season out of Otani.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's completely plausible if that happens.

[SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I think I'm less surprised with the pitching.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think coming over, I thought it was one of the best pictures in the world who also was like a top 100 bat, where now it's more like a top 20 years starter

[SPEAKER_03]: you know, and probably top 30 all time.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't even put 100 all time is probably too light.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think I would say yeah, like what he's admitted has definitely been as a hitter as opposed to the picture.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think he's been kind of what I anticipate he would be as a pitcher.

[SPEAKER_01]: To go what you said last three seasons 20 23 through 25

[SPEAKER_01]: averaging 30 doubles, eight triples, 51 homers, and 33 steels.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the average, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's, he is, the thing that stands out obviously he is a two way player, but if you look at like on by wins above replacement,

[SPEAKER_01]: He ranks among the top, he's not in trout range, he's not at the top of active players, but he's in the top 25 and he's around players who've played many more seasons than him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's still so much to come.

[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that I'll say as far as that, when Otani came over, he already, there was never a point where Shoyu Otani was small, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't wanna make it sound like there was ever a point where he was slight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Seeing Otani back then and then seeing him compared to now, it is dramatic, just how much further he has filled out, which I do think plays a role like he's just so physically imposing now.

[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit of story time here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, like I said, we've covered Botani, didn't badler, I would say, did a lot of it, but back when we were actually at BA for, if you go back and you look at old Otani coverage, we didn't know, he was always OT A&I.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like when he was in Japan, because again, it's a transliteration of a character.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so like, it's not always 100% until someone comes over, like I wanna be OHT&I.

[SPEAKER_01]: T-A-N-I.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it was always O-T-N-I, O-T-A-N-I for showy O-Tony.

[SPEAKER_01]: But when he was in Japan, it was like, already, it was like, this is amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're seeing a hundred miles an hour.

[SPEAKER_01]: Fastballs had a time when you really didn't ever see that in Japan.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mammoth home runs, although again, the hitting was a little bit more erratic at that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really a good outfielder, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: He did do that in Japan that he's never really done in the U.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: But so he comes over and I remember I got lucky.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was on the backfields.

[SPEAKER_01]: I heard that Otani was going to throw a backfield sim game on the backfields that angels camp.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the week before the Major League season.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it is a sim game against,

[SPEAKER_01]: low level angels minor leagueers and Kevin Myton, who had just been just become an angel because he had been free at free agent from the brave's because of their international signing illegalities and a big career for agent, Levon Soto, another one of those guys was on that team.

[SPEAKER_01]: Guys like that, guys who did not really have full season experience, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And Otani is like 91 to 93 on the mound, cannot throw strikes.

[SPEAKER_01]: When he does throw strikes, he's getting hit.

[SPEAKER_01]: They roll the first inning on showy Otani.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, let's roll it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're not gonna just have him out here throwing.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, I think you got an out or two in the first and then they rolled it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Second, if I remember right, they rolled it again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I'm sitting here watching this and I'm like, what trying to figure out what to make of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because he's terrible.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't have another way to describe it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I know what I saw in Japan and this bear's no relation to it, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he's throwing 91 to 93.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I know it's a sim game not adrenaline all that, but I'm like, I saw 100.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that little sim game wraps up and I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, I'm thinking to myself, I've witnessed this, I've got video and all this, how big a deal do I make of this and then I told myself it's like JJ, you've seen him in Japan, you know this isn't what he's normally like, it's a sim game.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm, you know, a tweeted about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned like, Oh, Tony had a rough day or whatever, but it didn't like, oh, Tony looks like he's a disaster, you know, the angels are gonna really ruin the day or anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing like that, thankfully.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thankfully.

[SPEAKER_01]: Cause then the next, he makes his MLB debut.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he gets the A's and utterly shubs.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's like 97, 98 and it's like,

[SPEAKER_01]: and I did, I breathed a sigh of relief, not because I mean, we had been writing about a tonney and how good he was.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I breathed a sigh of relief.

[SPEAKER_01]: That standpoint, but I really breathed a sigh of relief that I didn't try to make any sweeping generalizations of, hey, be really concerned about this, so tonney kid, then look nearly as good.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thankfully realized that this could not be what he was going to be, and I'm very glad that I didn't, you know, that we, again,

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's what I would say, we talked at that time.

[SPEAKER_01]: That top 100, I remember us talking about how it's like, it was a year where there was like no wrong answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, there really wasn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that was the year, and I want to make sure that I pull this up right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, it was,

[SPEAKER_01]: Ron La Cunia, Vladimir Guerrero, Jr., and show you Tony, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And we said at the time, these are three prospects that in any normal year, any one of them's number one and you're thrilled they're number one.

[SPEAKER_01]: We went with a Cunia number one, because again, there was some concern about a Tony coming over.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can you do the two way, can you, you know, is he going to be a star hitter and a star pitcher?

[SPEAKER_01]: All that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ronald Acunia is an MVP.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ronald Acunia is one of the best players in baseball.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if we had, and fly over to our junior, is an MVP, one of the best players in baseball.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if we had to do over again, yes, show you what Tony would have been our number one prospect at the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because those guys, as we talked about this, like the three homerun, six innings, strut out inning 10K game, is you could argue the greatest game in postseason history,

[SPEAKER_03]: We can talk about quite honestly, I would honestly argue that that might be the greatest performance in like North American team sports history.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just from a single game of being able to do all those things, I can't think of anything that's even close.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's the thing I would say is that you can say, if we're people say he's a generational player, and I just can't keep making this point, he's not a generational player.

[SPEAKER_01]: generational players come around once the generation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mike Trout is a generational player.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know he's been hurt lately and I'll but Mike Trout had a stretch where he was for five, six, seven years the best player in baseball.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is a generational player.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you said here and judge.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're in judge, generational player.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can say, like, he is the best player on this era, and he stacks up with the best players of other areas, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you can say, how Mike Trout compared to Barry Bond's pre-PED edition, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or you can say, how does Aaron Judge compare to Mark Maguire, PED edition, or things like that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Those are generational players.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have no one in the,

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no one to compare showyotony to because no one else has done this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I will note, Babe Ruth did get a chance to because he had to choose one of the other because you could not de-age.

[SPEAKER_01]: But showyotony has now done the hitting and an elite level for numerous years and he's done pitching at an elite level.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say for three and a half years

[SPEAKER_01]: and we're seeing it right here in the postseason.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's remarkable.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, as great as there are so many great players, show you Tani is the one who I think that when I'm you know, old and more decrepit than I am now, I will look back on and say I got to see him play in person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm proud of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited about that that I did on multiple occasions.

[SPEAKER_01]: I saw him play before he ever made his major league debut.

[SPEAKER_01]: I watched him in Japan video and all that when he was before he ever came to the US.

[SPEAKER_01]: All those things is like, he's the player that I'm gonna think back on and go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Grab the round grandkids and let me let Pat Pat tell you a story about the player he got to see.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the player that I'm gonna talk about

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it's like once in a lifetime kind of a player, right, which goes beyond generational, like you'll see multiple generational players throughout your life.

[SPEAKER_03]: Where this is the kind of player where I don't know if there's ever been.

[SPEAKER_03]: anybody even babe roof because like you go back a hundred and something years it's really hard for me it's hard to compare areas 50 years split let alone 120 so that's a whole other conversation but yeah you know I think

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I've been fortunate enough to to see him play in person.

[SPEAKER_03]: I didn't see him in person before he came over.

[SPEAKER_03]: It didn't seem it's bring training.

[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't doing this full time at that point.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I did get to see one of his highlight moments prior to winning a World Series last year with winning.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the great moments in baseball.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, where, you know, I saw him hit, I saw him take BP, saw him, you know, when the WBC and obviously strike out like trout.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I got to ask the first question in the press conference actually after.

[SPEAKER_03]: So that was kind of a cool little footnote.

[SPEAKER_03]: And stood next to him and I will tell you, you talked about the

[SPEAKER_03]: There is no chance he weighs anything less than like 235.24.

[SPEAKER_03]: He is humongous.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he's every bit as big as every NFL QB, you know, linebacker that I've been around.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's taller and he's just as muscular and broad.

[SPEAKER_03]: He is a massive, massive human being.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then obviously,

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, lead athlete on top of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: An exceptional athlete, that's the other part of it is just the one thing I am a little disappointed that we haven't gotten to see in the U.S. And I get it, I really do.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he could play it absolutely again.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's now 30, you know, it's not like the same as when he was probably when he was 22.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like,

[SPEAKER_01]: We see it on the base path.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you put it in the outfield, like you are talking about a rangey outfit or who by the way has a nine arm.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like when you talk about a prototypical right-fielder, showyotani is the prototype.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just don't get to see it because he's too good as a pitcher to not.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, so that's the perfect segue did into the next thing we wanna talk about here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking about how these teams are built.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll kind of ask you the question, again, might work on this as a story for later in the week.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you want a caveat caveat caveat that there's not the bravest rotation where you could count on Greg Maddox and Tom Glavin and John Smoltz and pick your take your pick of Steve Avery or Denny Nagle or whatever, you had four guys usually Charlie Lee Brent.

[SPEAKER_01]: You had four or five guys who could be counted on for 200 plus innings, this is not that rotation.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you wanna say maybe one of those Yankees rotations where you had Mucina or you had Clemens where you had, like you could pick out some of those rotations though, very good.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you asked me, if you said a rotation built for the postseason and the, let's call it the modern era by this standard, like if you wanna say co-fax, like you can absolutely go to 63 World Series where you had 63 World Series,

[SPEAKER_01]: Dodgers Yankees Dodgers facing a Yankees team that have mantle and merit and barra and Hall of Famers all over it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they allowed four runs, I believe, in four games.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not only that, they're starters pitched all but two thirds of an inning of those four games, because co-fax had two starts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Dry still won and Padre is won.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they all dominated Padre is actually left after eight and the third.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that did give Loran Pernowski a chance to throw two thirds of an inning of relief.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you, I mean, it's hard to compare that to what we're talking about now where you have

[SPEAKER_01]: The Dodgers had a wild card round and then a division series round and then the LCS and now they have the world series but that's said this rotation The way the Yama mode is pitching the way show it on is pitching the way the toddler glass is pitching the way Blake's nose pitching This rotation to me

[SPEAKER_01]: You could make the argument that this is, we'll see what they do in the world series.

[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, they have to do that for this to be the case.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think you can argue that this is the best rotation built for a postseason that you really can almost, that has been constructed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing you could construct, because obviously you could add to her school and Paul schemes to it or something.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that has been constructed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Am I overboard there?

[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think, you know, you look at all these guys you have a site multi-sai-young winner in Blake's smell.

[SPEAKER_03]: Tyler Glass now, who, you know, durability has kind of been the issue with glass now.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is that any time he's healthy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, if you get a two, you ever got a 200 in season from glass now, he probably wins a sai-young.

[SPEAKER_03]: If Showhail Otani who we've discussed at

[SPEAKER_03]: who, frankly, for my money is a top five pitcher in the big- Lisa definition of an ace.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think he's like kind of the ace of this staff, but the funny thing is you could say that about any of these guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like he's been worth another big contract with a touch or shell doubt.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it was the biggest free agent contract for a pitcher in history, he had not thrown a single pitch state side yet at that point.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he's been worth every penny this far.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, tremendous season and he's still 27 years old, as long as he stays healthy, somebody's going to anchor this rotation for the better part of probably the next decade.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, I think you look at all of these guys and even Yamamoto who maybe has less

[SPEAKER_03]: Stripes over here or whatever is coming off and absolutely you know phenomenal five war season at 27 years old so and I actually think it was as age 26 season because he turned 27 in August so a lot of years left with that guy and I think you know is this good as any picture in the game and he could show you so many different looks I think we kind of knew that when he came over with there was velocity

[SPEAKER_03]: kind of enough release trades and fastball trades and command and then tons of feel for spin and you know quality off-speed stuff as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of like the total package when it comes to the pitch mix between the curve ball slider, you know, as a sinker or cutter splitter, it's like you kind of have six different pitch shapes coming at you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would almost say it's probably the closest thing we've seen to you, Darvish since you Darvish came over.

[SPEAKER_03]: and I even think that includes domestic players too, just a deep arsenal and a lot of different traits.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I want to talk about, like you said about Glasto, there's the ever throws two underneath, so we'll say yeah, well, Glac's now is the definition of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Glac's now has qualified for the ERA title twice, and he's one, two say yunks.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like literally any season that Glac's now is healthy enough to throw 165 innings, he wins the say

[SPEAKER_01]: When I say the perfect postseason rotation, I think that's kind of part of this, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we wrote about this today piece about or yesterday when you can get this about the number the decline of the number four starter.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I would say with that is it's like I think that whether by design or providence, the Dodgers

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's good in their ways that colored last though, missed time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I don't think they rushed any of these guys back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Y'all know it obviously took his turn all year.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the Dodgers won 166 games a few years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've checked that box, they didn't even the division that year, they've checked that box.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it did them no good, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't like, it didn't make them any better.

[SPEAKER_01]: I, day now, when you say about their resources and how much they spend in all that, one of the things that it does kind of allow them to do is to say, hey, Clayton Kershott, Emmett, she-hand, Dustin May before we trade you, Tony Gonslin till you get hurt, Bing Kasperius, Justin Roblesky, we could just go down the line.

[SPEAKER_01]: They have all these pictures who their job

[SPEAKER_01]: is to get the team to September.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it really was September that all of a sudden you had a healthy snail, a healthy glass, no stretched out, healthy, autony back from TJ, and Ramamoto.

[SPEAKER_01]: And from that point on, it's like, yep, this is the team that everyone's feared all year.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we've seen this in the postseason, obviously, just mowing through opponents.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I would say about that,

[SPEAKER_01]: Having Blake's smell fresh, having a tonney fresh is a benefit for the Dodgers this time of year.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, a very short little sigh with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we have the smell outing already.

[SPEAKER_01]: If snow has another outing like that in the world series, normally there is a limit where I would say, do not, you know, you got to pull the pitcher, you know, you can't let a guy throw 130, 140 pitches in a game, even if he's, you know, got a perfect game or whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: Blake's now in the post in the world series is the exception I would have to that, which is like,

[SPEAKER_01]: He has this fascinating career, like you said, he has two sirens.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he also is the guy who I would say right now, even as good as his career's been, and it's been a great career.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's kind of known more for the fact that he has 1158 innings in 10 seasons.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that he's 81 is 62, and I know winds don't matter that much, but 81 is 62 with a 315 VRI.

[SPEAKER_01]: 10 seasons into his MLB career.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to see him have a chance to take a no hit or a complete game no hit or the world series or something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: He almost had one of those obviously in the LCS, just because it would change his career trajectory in some ways, because as great as he is with two Saiyans, I think he gets remembered for he's the guy who nibbles who doesn't throw that many innings and never seems to qualify for ERA titles.

[SPEAKER_01]: These guys are doing it in the postseason.

[SPEAKER_01]: The stat that also jumps out.

[SPEAKER_01]: These four starters through less than 50% of the Dodgers starting pitching innings in the regular season.

[SPEAKER_01]: In the postseason so far, they're throwing almost 80% of their total innings.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, okay, that kind of drives us to the next point, which is, but you're seeing what the Blue Jays,

[SPEAKER_01]: This blue jays rotation that we have now, is not the blue jays rotation that we saw in April, May, or June either.

[SPEAKER_01]: And how and, like, again, it's not just tray-a-savage, but it does stand out like that tray-a-savage is an example of how, what I would say is to kind of tee you off on this, how the blue jays processes have improved.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think things are just very deliberate.

[SPEAKER_03]: There were changes made at the top over the last couple of years in terms of,

[SPEAKER_03]: They're hitting development, as well as they're pitching development.

[SPEAKER_03]: They put a ton of money in the last few years into that facility and to need and really redid the whole player development system, everything is brand new, top-notch, I try to hit as many games as I possibly can, they're not just because they cover the blue jays, but because it's covered, they have plugs outside at the backfields.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just sort of the spared no expense.

[SPEAKER_03]: with the big free agents that they have, but they've also invested in pitching development pretty heavily.

[SPEAKER_03]: They brought in Justin Lear, they have Ricky Mindhold, who had been with Mattson, some other places before that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Ricky's job is kind of just to look at the processes that they had and make some suggestions, Justin kind of turned on the turbo boosters in terms of

[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of it was about like intended targeting and that sort of thing with pitching, trying to zone stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of it was a round command and control and trying to throw your best stuff in the zone.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we saw

[SPEAKER_03]: pictures do out their system take massive steps forward in terms of that strike, throwing, etc.

[SPEAKER_03]: I also think they were really strategic about how they deployed savage, starting the season in Dunedin, you're in good weather, etc.

[SPEAKER_03]: This thing started to heat up and he proved himself to be dominating low A.

[SPEAKER_03]: He then gets boosted up to Vancouver.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's there for a handful of starts.

[SPEAKER_03]: They were kind of running him and tandem piggyback with gauge Dana for another arm that broke out big for them this year.

[SPEAKER_03]: Once he got promoted, he salvaged to New Hampshire.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then all of a sudden, Dana for had kind of the training wheels off and he was starting games in place.

[SPEAKER_03]: He salvaged, salvaged, goes double a pitch as well, triple a.

[SPEAKER_03]: They bring them up to the big leagues.

[SPEAKER_03]: He gets whatever two or three starts.

[SPEAKER_03]: And now is pitch in the playoffs and pitch pretty well.

[SPEAKER_03]: But they kept some innings open for him.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think the other thing that they did was, when they drafted this guy, they liked the stuff, they were less concerned about some of the injury stuff than other people did.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they really were impressed by how he competed, how he handled innings, one of the ball went deep into all of the starts.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, in a lot of games where ECU was facing higher ranked teams, you know, they came away with a victory or at least, you know, when he came out of that game had a punch or chance at a W. So, I think you, you sort of look at that.

[SPEAKER_03]: He had those intangibles of

[SPEAKER_03]: a rotation guy right from the jump regardless of some of the questions around, you know, the unusual mechanics and the way over the top arm slot.

[SPEAKER_03]: and then some of the medicals and stuff around shoulders and elbows that were kind of whispered behind the scenes, you know, and draft circles with other teams.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, good on them.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think even beyond that last year, you know, they nailed the Cal Steven pick.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're then able to go out and acquire Justin Bieber.

[SPEAKER_03]: He was another guy that came through that Blue Jay's job.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a long week.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we're, we're staying up at night and watching games.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just, I'm just bad with names.

[SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, so they, they had quieter, he's Canadian, at least.

[SPEAKER_03]: They had quieter Shane Bieber, you know, in the Calsteevintrade, and then the third round pick that they had when they went 1, 2, 3 with pitchers, was Johnny King, who's a borderline top 100 prospect, and

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, of the young pitching prospects, at least in my systems, I've been getting some of the loudest feedback on him from outside of evaluators.

[SPEAKER_03]: So overall, they can really, really well in terms of pitching throughout the system.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that there's a philosophy, you know, there's certainly relievers here.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Fisher was another great pick-up.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're going after different types of players in the draft.

[SPEAKER_03]: and in free agency and on the trade market and I think a lot of that has to do with some synergy in between, you know, player development and acquisitions and just how they communicate.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I've had the scouting department tell me that directly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you hit on it, like, having, I think it's a massive developmental win.

[SPEAKER_01]: not just to develop trace average trace average first from pick.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like I don't want to make it sound like, you know, there are, there are developmental wins where you're like, that guy was, you know, a thramp pick in two years later, the big leagues and all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Trace average first from pick.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was in a elite prospect coming into the draft.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to have him develop the way he has where, as you said, he was ready to make this impact

[SPEAKER_01]: Right, like that's the part that is not easy.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's the part that a lot of teams have 100% screwed up over the years where I mean, to just point out, do you biggest screw up with all screw ups on this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the Stephen Strasper gear were like, yeah, we're making the post season, but we've run out of innings for our best picture.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oops.

[SPEAKER_01]: We want to protect them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how, you know, again, I don't know if that did or not, but I will tell you this developmentally that was a loss developmentally when you say we're a team that has an ace.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they ace round of innings because we didn't figure out a way to get him to October is not a way to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not what the Blue Jays have done here where they, I don't even say slow play them, but they did it in a way where they're like it's important that he's going to be at his best at the most important time of the year and the games that matter the most because the games don't matter in the Florida State League, like they matter in the postseason

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's done it, and they are not, and let's just be clear.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are not here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are not talking about the blue jays on this world series preview podcast without that.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, that's just simple as enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing about this is, I do wanna kind of touch on this a little bit more and talk a little bit more blue jays here, which is, but it's also guys like Addison Margaret, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also, guys, like, Alejandro Kirk is a developmental success story, and it's a credit to Kirk, but it's also credit to them, because, you know, this is a team that at one point, they had, they had Kirk, they had Danny Jansen, and they had Gabriel Moreno.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I will tell you right now, it was a somewhat unconventional decision at that time

[SPEAKER_01]: Gabriel Morena, who is the embodiment of what your young going to be a face of the franchise, long-term durable catcher looks like.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gabriel Morena looks like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: To say, no, we believe in Kirk, who, as we all can say, like, who's a great, who's a really good catcher, but body wise,

[SPEAKER_01]: When he was coming up, he looked like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: He looked like the guy where you're like, is that going to be the, is that guy going to be a state and he has, and he's very good at it, and he can hit, he's been an incredibly valuable part of their team.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the development of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Addison Barger is the development of win.

[SPEAKER_01]: You could, you know, like signing earning Clement off the scrap heat and having him be a very useful and valuable player.

[SPEAKER_01]: George Springer's bounce back, obviously, is a win.

[SPEAKER_01]: But to me, there are some of these players like Kirk, like Barger, like guys like that, that really fit into kind of this story as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, that really are kind of vital to this, aren't they?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think, you know, we talked about Vladimir.

[SPEAKER_03]: We know what kind of win that was, was obviously a big signing from the moment he signed.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think you do look at Kirk now and, you know, had a couple of seasons where he dealt with some injuries and the bat wasn't quite there, but as put together two four plus war seasons now is kind of sneaky one of the best defensive catchers in the game.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think that was one of the things that I enjoyed most about the Seattle Toronto series where you were seeing two great defensive catchers out there that there were in a lot of misplaced.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, both very good blockers, good framers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Rally might be a little bit better of a thrower than Kirk is, but Kirk isn't a bad, but of course, had a nice pick through last night, almost picked off play at first base.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think you look at him too, just from the standpoint of the bar's lower for catchers offensively, and he doesn't have a ton of power despite having all this mass, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: But he's one of the hardest guys in baseball to strike out.

[SPEAKER_03]: He takes his walks, hits for consistent average, kind of puts the ball in play when you need him to, does a lot of those things that I think maybe go unnoticed in sort of the stat line, wax and poetic, like in 70-year-old baseball coach right now, but I think catchers like this who provide above average average offense,

[SPEAKER_03]: are worth their weight in gold if they're a plus defensive catcher and that's what you get with Kirk and I we see with teams that win quality catching more often than not is kind of the backbone of those teams and we look at Seattle obviously good catching will Smith you know good catching.

[SPEAKER_03]: you know, there as well and, you know, William Contreras who's been one of the best catchers in baseball as well for the viewers.

[SPEAKER_03]: The final four teams even all had kind of had elite catchers.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think you need a guy like that to get here.

[SPEAKER_03]: Speaking on barger, I think they're still more left in the tank.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think we saw an inconsistently really good season for him this year.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe his better long-term at third than he is in the outfield, but we probably

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, but offensively and played some in the postseason even there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, um, hit 21 home runs, um, you know, can drive in runs.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's always going to strike out.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's an amount.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's never going to walk a ton.

[SPEAKER_03]: But still only 25, and I think that we haven't necessarily scratched the surface on what the ceiling is.

[SPEAKER_03]: This could turn into like a 30-home or bat.

[SPEAKER_03]: It could go the other way.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think as we see the contact continue to improve.

[SPEAKER_03]: But he had a really good year, kind of some ups and some downs, but overall was an above average bat for them.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a pretty solid defender at multiple positions.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's a really useful piece for him and I think, you know, some of, we'll say more of the role players on this team have a lot of versatility can play a few different positions and I think that's helpful in terms of, you know, when they get the, you know, situations strategically where they need to put their best defense out there or.

[SPEAKER_03]: spell a guy with their struggles or injuries, etc.

[SPEAKER_03]: They are equipped with a decent bench to to be able to do some of those things.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think barger is still on the up swing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think we're kind of seeing Kirk in his peak right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Frankly, I think it is probably

[SPEAKER_03]: Even with his good as George Springer has been, he might be the second most valuable position player on this team behind flat, just for all that he provides you behind the plate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're going to see if Boba Shetty says he's ready.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see if he joins back as well, which obviously will be a big boost.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, in this, I'm gonna do another predicts but any, any thoughts you have on what you think's gonna happen in the world, sirs?

[SPEAKER_03]: All right, so I'm gonna stick, you know, I had picked, I think the Dodgers to win the world series before the year, but I'm gonna go against that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm gonna, I'm gonna say the BlueJay Shock the World in seven games.

[SPEAKER_03]: we get a great classic series and they end up winning.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think there is this I would not listen to this is betting advice though.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would not look that this is betting advice, but I do think if the scenario where the blue jays win, is there the first team that can get to the Dodger starting pitching?

[SPEAKER_03]: because everybody one through nine provides really good at bats.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's a lot of guys that can hit for contact, they aren't fooled by breaking balls.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a lot more power in this lineup than there was in the Brewers lineup.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think some of the things that we thought could work in the favor of the Brewers,

[SPEAKER_03]: The blue jays have that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Plus they have a lot more impact even from their bottom of the line up guys can still sneak a couple of homers.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's more 15 homer power is opposed to like five to 10 like those brewers guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're really good defense team.

[SPEAKER_03]: They make a lot of plays in the infield will be interesting to see if maybe.

[SPEAKER_03]: Springer gets moved to an outfield spot if he's healthy enough Because the shit maybe his best is just the D.A.

[SPEAKER_03]: right now I really like the way the infield looks with him.

[SPEAKER_01]: That isn't like a half a lot I think that's one of the things it's been a huge benefit for them They don't win those games if they don't have that middle-infield defense No, I don't I follow saying it's fingers knees okay now I obviously took a ball off of it like that would be I can see where that or like I could also see

[SPEAKER_01]: got a few days here, you know, like, does Boba Shet become like, is it possible that he becomes a second baseman maybe for a cup, you know, for is that, is that crazy to think?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that good?

[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that he's not like you do not want him going bright back out there to shortstop.

[SPEAKER_01]: Their defense is too good right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's really what it is.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then the question becomes like as Nathan Lucas, who's been really good for them, kind of out at the same time, if I'm sacrificing Nathan Lucas's fat when he's, that's not killing me.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he's been fine, he's, you know, move runners along.

[SPEAKER_03]: He's had a good playoffs, but, you know, I don't know if that's, if that's a massive difference.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's maybe the difference between him as an all around player versus what you feel you get from from my KF.

[SPEAKER_03]: just in terms of the bat.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's probably going to be that the shit slides into shortstop.

[SPEAKER_03]: If he is a full go, and then he managed, you know, platinum glove at second base moves back to his natural position.

[SPEAKER_03]: But he managed this played great there.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a benefit.

[SPEAKER_03]: They are a very strong defensive team.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think kind of in the outfield, in the infield, obviously we just talked about Kirk's catching.

[SPEAKER_03]: But the pitching worries me against the Dodgers frankly, you know, I think I'd be crazy not to say that, but now I get to kind of reset the rotation a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: I assume that probably go galsman.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a savage again in game two because they'd like to pitch him at home as opposed to on the road, and then we would see Bieber, Scherzer, and then potentially Gaussman, or maybe even Bassett, I don't know, but probably Gaussman, if they made it that far into game five, and then whatever happens in game six and seven, it kind of all hands on deck at that point.

[SPEAKER_03]: It would be great to see it

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going to pick up the days here, but I'm going to put my money on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say Dodgers and five.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope you rock.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to seven.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want seven.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm going to say Dodgers.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to start pick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just think this rotation right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do think that, yes, I do think that BlueJays lineup has enough to do some damage here, but the rotation is just so dominant right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and Roki Suzuki does give them actually looks like a, you know, a closer, you know, makes, makes a deep, makes the bullpen deeper than we thought it was, you know, which obviously we thought it was shallower than shallower than shallower.

[SPEAKER_01]: It has really mattered yet because their rotation has been so good.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be fascinating.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're all excited to see it.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll have more here at baseball america.com.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll have more podcasting.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do it again.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another full world series preview focusing more on the matchups and all that for Jeff.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm JJ.