(00:00:01):
No matter what my husband does, he's the victim.

(00:00:04):
If the kids don't like him because he yells at them,

(00:00:07):
it's my fault for not facilitating their relationship.

(00:00:10):
If he doesn't have clean clothes because he didn't put them in the bin where I wash

(00:00:14):
them,

(00:00:14):
I'm mean for not hunting down his clothes.

(00:00:18):
It's my fault for not working harder to make him have friends,

(00:00:21):
help him stay close to his family and a million other things.

(00:00:24):
I'm sure all these men complaining about the male loneliness epidemic are just like him.

(00:00:29):
They're suffering the consequences of their own behavior,

(00:00:32):
and they don't like it,

(00:00:33):
so they're blaming others.

(00:00:35):
Somehow,

(00:00:36):
the gender that has hoarded all of the power for itself manages to make itself the

(00:00:40):
victim in the world that it created and owns.

(00:00:44):
Hi, I'm Zonva Lines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast.

(00:00:49):
As always,

(00:00:49):
I have to plead with you to help support this podcast by sharing it on social

(00:00:53):
media,

(00:00:54):
by leaving a positive review on your favorite podcast platform,

(00:00:57):
heart reacting on Substack,

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and by leaving comments or otherwise engaging on social media.

(00:01:03):
As you probably noticed,

(00:01:04):
social media algorithms are desperately trying to drive away feminist and leftist

(00:01:08):
creators.

(00:01:09):
And yet we depend on these platforms to spread our message.

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So we don't want to leave them.

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We want to dominate them.

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You can help us do that by giving the algorithm what it wants, and that's engagement.

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You can also sign up to become a paid subscriber and get at least one bonus podcast

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episode a month.

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These actions to promote the podcast really do help,

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especially becoming a paid subscriber,

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because subscribers are the sole reason I am able to do this work.

(00:01:37):
I will never accept advertiser money or allow this work to be censored,

(00:01:40):
and so I am dependent solely on you,

(00:01:42):
my listeners.

(00:01:43):
Thank you for being here.

(00:01:45):
For the next month or two, October and November 2025, if you're binging sometime in the future,

(00:01:52):
I'm experimenting with doing a podcast every week instead of my usual twice monthly schedule.

(00:01:56):
I want to see if this pace is sustainable for me and if listeners like it.

(00:02:01):
So I'd love your feedback on whether I should be doing more frequent podcasts.

(00:02:05):
And also engagement right now really is feedback because it helps increase

(00:02:09):
visibility and helps me assess whether I should continue with this pace.

(00:02:13):
The best feedback is always, again, feeding the nightmare algorithm beast.

(00:02:18):
Much as I wish it were otherwise, that's what enables this podcast to grow.

(00:02:23):
My guest today is going to talk to us directly about the so-called male loneliness

(00:02:29):
epidemic and other aspects of relationships as they come up.

(00:02:35):
I am here today with Elsie Deshay.

(00:02:37):
Hi, Elsie.

(00:02:38):
Hi.

(00:02:39):
How are you doing?

(00:02:40):
Thanks so much for coming on.

(00:02:41):
I think you are going to love this guest.

(00:02:43):
Let me tell you a little bit about them.

(00:02:46):
Elsie is a genderqueer IBCLC doula and reproductive health analyst and gender

(00:02:52):
journalist who focuses on sexual ethnography.

(00:02:55):
In the first 15 years of their career,

(00:02:57):
they worked at the UCLA Roxbury and at various clinics on Skid Row facilitating and

(00:03:02):
coordinating data collection and case management for various risk reduction sexual

(00:03:06):
and behavioral health research projects.

(00:03:09):
Once she completed her sexual health counseling and doula training,

(00:03:12):
as well as completed her IBCLC credential at UCSD,

(00:03:16):
she began practicing with her local midwifery and pediatric private clinician

(00:03:20):
group.

(00:03:21):
She spent her time there fighting locally and on a state level to ensure that

(00:03:25):
breastfeeding and perinatal mental health care was approved,

(00:03:28):
covered,

(00:03:28):
and included in ACA health care coverage while advocating for universal health care

(00:03:33):
and paid leave.

(00:03:35):
Elsie also is an assistant instructor for the UC System Global Perinatal and

(00:03:39):
Lactation Program and continued to work in L&D,

(00:03:43):
PEDS,

(00:03:43):
NICU,

(00:03:44):
and other reproductive in- and outpatient departments in UC,

(00:03:47):
Providence,

(00:03:48):
and civic hospitals and clinic systems up until the pandemic and the birth of their

(00:03:52):
fourth child.

(00:03:53):
In the last five plus years,

(00:03:55):
they expanded their career consulting with healthcare technology companies and

(00:03:58):
communication in the sexual and family health fields to combat the impact of

(00:04:02):
prejudice in technology and media for sexual and gender health.

(00:04:06):
Though proud of their professional life by day,

(00:04:09):
they use their platform as the digital dominatrix to advocate fiercely for the

(00:04:13):
socioeconomic protection of domestic violence victims and sex workers of

(00:04:17):
childbearing age by night.

(00:04:19):
Elsie is also a married parent of four, a gender deconstructionist, and a proud ecofeminist.

(00:04:25):
All of these are just wonderful.

(00:04:27):
Every sentence just makes me want to cheer.

(00:04:28):
I'm so happy to have you here.

(00:04:30):
It's like so much.

(00:04:31):
I feel like we should have taken half out.

(00:04:34):
It's never too much.

(00:04:37):
You should never take out things that you have done.

(00:04:39):
You should claim them all.

(00:04:42):
I appreciate it.

(00:04:43):
All right.

(00:04:44):
So, well, let's get started.

(00:04:45):
So I'm so struck by this opening vignette.

(00:04:47):
This came in at like the 11th hour, and I was so glad that it did because...

(00:04:53):
It hits on exactly what we'll be talking about,

(00:04:55):
which is men blaming others for the world they created.

(00:05:00):
I feel like a lack of accountability for the dominant class is kind of a

(00:05:03):
cornerstone of oppressive systems,

(00:05:05):
whether it's white supremacy,

(00:05:07):
misogyny,

(00:05:07):
ableism,

(00:05:08):
classism,

(00:05:08):
et cetera.

(00:05:10):
Tell me about what you are seeing with men and loneliness and low accountability in

(00:05:14):
your own work.

(00:05:16):
You know, it's so funny.

(00:05:18):
So I'm going to say this up front because I'm such a freaking nerd.

(00:05:22):
And, like, you know this because you have a window more into my personal life.

(00:05:26):
But can you believe that I found a research study that's actually looking at the

(00:05:32):
sociology and psychology of natural selection?

(00:05:35):
It's called Consistency and Variation in Natural Selection on Personality Traits

(00:05:40):
Across 17 Countries.

(00:05:41):
And what they were studying was, quote, unquote, reproductive success.

(00:05:45):
Wow.

(00:05:46):
And so I brought that to this.

(00:05:48):
We're just going to leave it.

(00:05:49):
I'm not going to talk about it right now.

(00:05:51):
But I'm saying this because,

(00:05:53):
like,

(00:05:54):
for those of us who like to have that little,

(00:05:57):
like,

(00:05:57):
scientific joker card in the back pocket,

(00:06:00):
right?

(00:06:00):
Like that ace in the side pocket.

(00:06:02):
This is truly, truly a phenomenon that is really happening.

(00:06:07):
And my deep belief, as a sociologist, as an ethnographer, that men are reaping...

(00:06:14):
They're reaping the results of natural selection in an environment that they

(00:06:18):
created under the guise that it was going to give them the most success.

(00:06:22):
And now that it has unfortunately ricocheted back onto them negatively, now they don't like it.

(00:06:28):
As you said, the irony of this is that they're in control.

(00:06:32):
So if they don't like it,

(00:06:33):
there's always two choices,

(00:06:34):
adapt,

(00:06:35):
change the system,

(00:06:36):
or the third choice,

(00:06:37):
do both.

(00:06:38):
What I see in my work, it depends on which part of my work you're talking about.

(00:06:43):
Everybody always wants to know about the digital dominatrix part.

(00:06:46):
So I do relationship coaching and I call it coaching because I work with,

(00:06:52):
it doesn't happen often.

(00:06:53):
I don't take on a lot of clients at a time.

(00:06:55):
I take on one,

(00:06:57):
maybe two maximum and two really is the maximum for me emotionally because I just

(00:07:02):
like don't have a lot of patience for male clients.

(00:07:05):
whining and unfortunately that's something even i deal with they get better that's

(00:07:11):
kind of the point is is to help them in in the uh the best angels of their nature

(00:07:17):
to improve whatever that case may be but what a lot of people don't know is that my

(00:07:21):
references are almost always through their friend partners so men are sent to me by

(00:07:26):
their wives

(00:07:27):
And I want to start off with that because I think when people hear dominatrix and

(00:07:33):
digital and all of these other things,

(00:07:34):
they assume that it's kind of like pornography,

(00:07:37):
no shade to,

(00:07:38):
you know,

(00:07:39):
the girls and girlies and ladies who are in porn,

(00:07:42):
no shade whatsoever.

(00:07:43):
That's a different conversation, right?

(00:07:45):
But they assume that it's like something that's done in the dark,

(00:07:47):
that people are coming to me and that is not how I operate.

(00:07:50):
The vast majority of the time,

(00:07:51):
it's men who are in very sensitive positions where they may have therapists,

(00:07:58):
but their therapy is associated with their jobs somehow,

(00:08:01):
or they're just so tied up socially that they need to have a situation where they

(00:08:05):
can be in an NDA.

(00:08:07):
And the way that I protect myself,

(00:08:09):
because I need to protect myself under those circumstances,

(00:08:11):
is that I only take men who are referred by a femme person.

(00:08:18):
And the femme person is their accountability partner.

(00:08:21):
Whether they participate in the sessions or not is irrelevant to me,

(00:08:25):
but they have to know about that.

(00:08:26):
And the man knows that in the beginning.

(00:08:28):
And so I'm getting people who were already at least supposedly wanting to change,

(00:08:34):
but they know my philosophy.

(00:08:35):
And my philosophy is that if you do not like

(00:08:39):
the circumstances that your current status, right?

(00:08:43):
Your current behavior patterns,

(00:08:44):
your habits,

(00:08:45):
the decisions that you've made or the situation that you've ended up in.

(00:08:48):
If you don't like what that's yielding,

(00:08:51):
your biggest challenge as a human being on this earth and the time that you have is

(00:08:54):
going to be to adapt one way or another.

(00:08:57):
And so that's the work that I do.

(00:09:00):
And I am constantly pushing them in every session, every chat conversation, every day that...

(00:09:06):
This is natural selection.

(00:09:08):
And if you would like to be naturally selected, here are the ways.

(00:09:14):
Which probably sounds cold-hearted, but you'd be amazed how much success I have with that.

(00:09:19):
So that's my little spiel.

(00:09:20):
I don't think it sounds cold-hearted at all.

(00:09:22):
Okay.

(00:09:22):
I have many questions.

(00:09:25):
Go ahead.

(00:09:26):
So if you're working with men who are referred by women who are generally their

(00:09:30):
partners,

(00:09:31):
this selects out like 95% of men.

(00:09:33):
Absolutely.

(00:09:34):
So you're kind of already working with, quote unquote, the best men.

(00:09:38):
I hate phrasing it that way.

(00:09:41):
It also makes me sad for obvious reasons.

(00:09:44):
But sure, relatively speaking.

(00:09:46):
Best intentions.

(00:09:49):
They have the best intentions.

(00:09:50):
I can agree with that.

(00:09:51):
Yeah.

(00:09:51):
So let's talk about what these like supposedly well-intended men.

(00:09:56):
What I'm really interested in is

(00:09:59):
The discrepancy you're seeing between what their partners are telling you and what

(00:10:05):
they're telling you.

(00:10:06):
Like, tell me about that dynamic.

(00:10:08):
Because we rarely get a window into what that looks like when men hire any kind of

(00:10:14):
help professional.

(00:10:15):
Yeah.

(00:10:18):
So, I mean, the discrepancy narrows as time goes by or else they don't stay on my caseload.

(00:10:23):
I can tell you that much.

(00:10:24):
My patience is short with that level of disparity.

(00:10:28):
But in the beginning, it can be pretty profound.

(00:10:30):
And frankly, the reason why they're there is because of a disparity.

(00:10:34):
So the vast majority of the time,

(00:10:35):
these are people who have been married for a significant period of time.

(00:10:38):
Like, I have yet to get a newlywed.

(00:10:40):
And I feel like I need to put that out there.

(00:10:42):
And it's not because I wouldn't be interested or willing,

(00:10:45):
but I also think that the men who were coming,

(00:10:48):
they have so much to lose.

(00:10:49):
Does that make sense?

(00:10:50):
So the women who were in these scenarios, they have a certain amount of leverage, I would say.

(00:10:55):
And they basically told them, but oftentimes they have pre-nups or post-nups.

(00:11:00):
And I'm putting this out there too,

(00:11:01):
so that people who were listening can feel like,

(00:11:03):
what is this about?

(00:11:04):
And sort of get a concept, right?

(00:11:06):
But in terms of the disparity,

(00:11:09):
the disparity is often that it's usually just that the wife is fed up to be perfectly honest.

(00:11:16):
So most of the time it isn't even like a situation where the man's like,

(00:11:20):
I am doing my best frequently.

(00:11:23):
He's like, I know my best isn't good enough, but like, it's what I've got.

(00:11:27):
And she's like, screw that, you know, like she's like 10 years in or whatever's happening.

(00:11:32):
And what I frequently hear from the wives is,

(00:11:37):
I actually have had one couple who was gay, so I can't say the why.

(00:11:39):
So what I frequently hear from the domestic partner, wife or not,

(00:11:43):
um is that i've kept up my end of the deal and then some i've been gracious i've

(00:11:49):
been patient and he just doesn't fulfill his commitments like yeah you know he like

(00:11:57):
we've gone to counseling we've gone to therapy right we've done all these things

(00:12:01):
and every time he does he comes out with the language right he comes out with the

(00:12:05):
ideology and it sounds so good but he never delivers

(00:12:10):
And so the interesting disparity is the standard.

(00:12:14):
It's not even in my situation, right?

(00:12:15):
It's not even like, am I cleaning?

(00:12:18):
Am I not cleaning?

(00:12:19):
It's who is this enough for?

(00:12:21):
I don't know if that makes sense.

(00:12:23):
And the wife is like, this is no longer enough for me.

(00:12:26):
Do you know what I mean?

(00:12:26):
And the man's like, I understand that this isn't enough for her, but it's what I've got.

(00:12:31):
However, I'm not willing to lose what I have, right?

(00:12:35):
Because I'm not doing enough for this person, even though I think I'm doing enough.

(00:12:40):
So it's very, it's an interesting tension.

(00:12:43):
And I do think it's different than a lot of,

(00:12:46):
obviously,

(00:12:46):
I mean,

(00:12:47):
you know,

(00:12:48):
people out here don't know this,

(00:12:49):
but I'm a divorcee.

(00:12:50):
I'm divorced.

(00:12:51):
I'm not with my first husband.

(00:12:52):
I'm in my second and hopefully to God, my last marriage.

(00:12:57):
Very, very happy in this marriage.

(00:12:59):
But my first marriage, I barely survived.

(00:13:01):
And I mean that very sincerely,

(00:13:03):
like in medical,

(00:13:04):
psychological and legal terms,

(00:13:07):
barely made it out of that marriage.

(00:13:09):
And so I'm not getting marriages in that level of crisis.

(00:13:13):
When I,

(00:13:13):
you know,

(00:13:14):
I work with a lot of nonprofits,

(00:13:17):
and I work with a lot of like doula consortiums,

(00:13:19):
right?

(00:13:19):
And I work with like,

(00:13:20):
all sorts of things where I volunteer,

(00:13:23):
I haven't taken money,

(00:13:24):
like for any of these positions,

(00:13:25):
I'm volunteering,

(00:13:26):
right?

(00:13:27):
And various like people who work with shelters or whatever,

(00:13:29):
you have all sorts of collectives to help those who are dealing with domestic

(00:13:33):
violence,

(00:13:34):
trying to leave people who are being trafficked.

(00:13:35):
And that's a completely different thing, because I'm never working with

(00:13:38):
perpetrators in those scenarios does that make sense yeah so I want to make that

(00:13:43):
distinction so yeah the disparity here is more or less the standard with the people

(00:13:47):
I'm dealing with the man is like I would like my efforts as opposed to like the

(00:13:53):
outcomes from my efforts or I want my intentions to be good enough and their femme

(00:13:57):
partners the vast majority of the time femme are like that it is not good enough

(00:14:01):
right like I want results and I want them now

(00:14:04):
I mean,

(00:14:04):
that's also what I tend to see with men and what I think often underlies it is not

(00:14:11):
I can't do better.

(00:14:12):
It's I don't want to do better than is necessary.

(00:14:16):
It's still to do the bare minimum, the bare minimum.

(00:14:19):
Absolutely.

(00:14:20):
What are these men saying to you about why they're not doing better?

(00:14:25):
um it depends um i have to be honest a lot of the cases um at some point we find

(00:14:34):
that there's an addiction problem uh yeah and the and i i mean that i'm i don't

(00:14:40):
want to say sincerely like there's fake addiction problems but you know some people

(00:14:43):
are like hey it's a

(00:14:44):
Okay, that could be the case.

(00:14:45):
But there's so many metabolic things, right?

(00:14:47):
Like underlying stuff like that, that is super convoluted.

(00:14:49):
I don't mean that.

(00:14:50):
I mean, literally, like, his wife finds out that he's been snorting cocaine addiction problem.

(00:14:55):
Like, you know, he's he's the functioning alcoholic.

(00:14:58):
I mean, literal, in the most basic and legal sense, a dependency issue.

(00:15:04):
And so for me,

(00:15:05):
the beginning of my career,

(00:15:06):
because I did risk reduction this whole entire time with,

(00:15:09):
you know,

(00:15:09):
maternal child health and homelessness or,

(00:15:13):
you know,

(00:15:14):
all of the things that I was a community caseworker and then a research case

(00:15:18):
manager for,

(00:15:20):
along with being in the hospital,

(00:15:21):
it always usually involves some sort of triangulation,

(00:15:25):
right,

(00:15:25):
of like dependency and then just...

(00:15:29):
unhelpful social habits that result from unresolved traumas.

(00:15:35):
And underneath every single one of those things is oftentimes severe trauma.

(00:15:39):
And by severe trauma, I mean these men have survived profound sexual assault.

(00:15:44):
They've

(00:15:45):
been in jail,

(00:15:46):
like even if they're super successful,

(00:15:48):
they had,

(00:15:49):
you know,

(00:15:50):
what someone described as a junkie for a parent,

(00:15:53):
really intense stuff that has never been resolved,

(00:15:56):
that they've never been treated for,

(00:15:57):
that they've never discussed with anybody.

(00:15:59):
At least 50% of the time,

(00:16:01):
their wives don't even know that this is something that's in their background.

(00:16:05):
And I can honestly say that in my cases, that is extremely common that that's the trajectory.

(00:16:10):
I mean, that's just wild to me that

(00:16:14):
they're having this level of difficulty in their marriage and their partners don't even know.

(00:16:18):
They don't even know who they're with.

(00:16:21):
Correct.

(00:16:22):
They don't.

(00:16:23):
Yeah.

(00:16:24):
What do you, talk to me about that.

(00:16:26):
What, what is that?

(00:16:29):
I mean,

(00:16:30):
you know,

(00:16:31):
I think that that's,

(00:16:33):
I think unfortunately that,

(00:16:35):
that is the Petri dish that patriarchy has created that it requires of men.

(00:16:42):
Men, that is the soft underbelly of men having to live up to their own demands.

(00:16:50):
It's very,

(00:16:51):
I find it,

(00:16:53):
that it's actually pretty uncommon that men have been able to skirt along and claim

(00:16:59):
a masculine identity without having been assaulted with one of the nastier edges of

(00:17:05):
masculinity.

(00:17:06):
But the problem is,

(00:17:07):
their own problem,

(00:17:08):
and I don't mean a specific person,

(00:17:10):
I mean collectively,

(00:17:11):
as long as this identity and this demand and this power structure is maintained,

(00:17:16):
the issue with being hazed into this identity

(00:17:19):
is that you're expected to endure the worst of it and still praise it and also

(00:17:24):
ignore all of the trauma that you dealt with because like that's the payment that's

(00:17:28):
what you pay you pay in blood to be a man and then they literally pass off all of

(00:17:34):
these terrible things right like either being

(00:17:38):
assaulted by a friend when they were younger.

(00:17:41):
I put, you know, friend in parentheses.

(00:17:43):
Let's not even get into,

(00:17:44):
you know,

(00:17:44):
which one in the military,

(00:17:45):
it's everything you can ever possibly imagine.

(00:17:47):
That could be a completely different podcast, right?

(00:17:51):
But even like in tech and stuff,

(00:17:53):
it's just a lot of these men,

(00:17:55):
when they go to college,

(00:17:56):
the things that they endure when they get into fraternities is things,

(00:18:00):
it belongs in vice,

(00:18:03):
in a vice file.

(00:18:05):
It's horrible.

(00:18:06):
And there's this code of silence that it seems like all of them take because

(00:18:11):
they're told,

(00:18:11):
this is what you do in exchange,

(00:18:13):
right?

(00:18:13):
To be called a man.

(00:18:14):
And then I feel to me,

(00:18:15):
and this is what I tell them,

(00:18:16):
they spend their lives perpetuating the trauma that is festering inside of them on

(00:18:22):
everyone around them.

(00:18:23):
They're making everybody else pay, right?

(00:18:25):
Like they're passing the buck off of this social debt rather than dealing with it.

(00:18:30):
And to me, this gets to the whole, the reason why men,

(00:18:35):
harass women is because they're afraid of other men.

(00:18:38):
Have you seen those reels and stuff?

(00:18:41):
Have you seen any of those on social media?

(00:18:43):
That the reality of why men bully women is because they're afraid of other men?

(00:18:47):
Like they could be going to the source of the root of the problem,

(00:18:51):
but the fact of the matter is they're also afraid of the men that we're afraid of.

(00:18:56):
And I feel like that really gets to the root of the problem and it's something that

(00:18:59):
I see in almost all of my cases.

(00:19:02):
Yeah,

(00:19:02):
I mean,

(00:19:02):
to me,

(00:19:03):
I'm seeing a lot of parallels here to how white women cozy up to white

(00:19:07):
supremacists.

(00:19:08):
Precisely.

(00:19:09):
Yes, absolutely.

(00:19:12):
Unfortunately, yes.

(00:19:13):
Yeah, I don't think I had specifically tracked it that way before.

(00:19:18):
But yeah,

(00:19:19):
it's the same kind of thing as seeking protection from the very system that you

(00:19:23):
built and benefit from,

(00:19:24):
but are also victimized by.

(00:19:26):
You know, one thing that I'm thinking about while you're talking about men and trauma is

(00:19:32):
is this idea that,

(00:19:34):
you know,

(00:19:35):
men experience trauma,

(00:19:37):
and then they have to,

(00:19:38):
like,

(00:19:39):
inflict that trauma on others so that they don't have to deal with it.

(00:19:42):
I mean, they don't have to, but they certainly do, right?

(00:19:46):
Or they feel like they have to.

(00:19:47):
And, like, that's the normal way to deal with things.

(00:19:50):
And then we contrast that with women who are also experiencing trauma sometimes.

(00:19:55):
Who are then like, let me get therapy.

(00:19:57):
Let me get self-help.

(00:19:58):
Let me.

(00:19:59):
Let me get a healthy group of friends.

(00:20:01):
Let me volunteer at my local city shelter.

(00:20:05):
Let me do something productive and positive with my time.

(00:20:08):
And we just, we see this, you know.

(00:20:11):
We see this in so many ways.

(00:20:13):
We see this with women in postpartum depression where women get depressed and they

(00:20:17):
say,

(00:20:17):
what can I do to fix me?

(00:20:18):
You know,

(00:20:19):
men get depressed and they say,

(00:20:20):
well,

(00:20:20):
I'm going to smash the whole house and that's your fucking problem.

(00:20:23):
Correct.

(00:20:24):
And then you should love me for it.

(00:20:26):
I think that's where the standards come in, right?

(00:20:29):
Love me with no boundaries and no conditions whatsoever,

(00:20:34):
including when that involves harming you as well.

(00:20:37):
This is part of loving me.

(00:20:39):
You're welcome.

(00:20:39):
And it's like, are you out of your mind?

(00:20:42):
But they are a little bit.

(00:20:44):
And they are a little bit because this is the process that they take.

(00:20:47):
Like, this is the price that they feel like this is not me.

(00:20:49):
This is not like my personal belief.

(00:20:51):
But I can tell you that this is what I'm hearing in terms of how it affects them.

(00:20:55):
Like, this is the price they paid to become a man.

(00:20:57):
Mm hmm.

(00:20:58):
All right,

(00:20:58):
so speaking of this love me with no boundaries and no conditions thing,

(00:21:01):
because I do think that this is really something that men have been socialized

(00:21:06):
into,

(00:21:06):
that they are entitled to love,

(00:21:08):
they are entitled to love no matter what,

(00:21:11):
and that anything less than total love with no conditions is not love at all.

(00:21:15):
And women get the opposite of like, we're not entitled to anything no matter what.

(00:21:21):
Where I see this a lot, and where I imagine that you have seen this a lot in your career,

(00:21:26):
is in the notion that men deserve care and support from their partners

(00:21:31):
after their partners have given birth.

(00:21:34):
You know, women, it seems, are expected to immediately rise to the occasion.

(00:21:39):
They could be bleeding from two open wounds.

(00:21:43):
They could have just survived a hemorrhage.

(00:21:45):
And they frequently are.

(00:21:46):
Yeah, and they frequently are.

(00:21:47):
They could have not slept in five days.

(00:21:51):
Which is also their husband's fault.

(00:21:53):
Which is also their husband's fault.

(00:21:54):
Don't even get me started, right?

(00:21:55):
They have mastitis.

(00:21:57):
They're trying to deal with a kid.

(00:21:58):
They're dealing at like peak human capacity.

(00:22:01):
And the husband's like, let's focus on the real victim here, me.

(00:22:08):
Well,

(00:22:08):
this is where we get to the part of the podcast that you're going to have to edit

(00:22:11):
out the misandrist things that I say because I have zero kind words.

(00:22:15):
I don't.

(00:22:16):
I don't.

(00:22:16):
I don't have any kind words for that.

(00:22:17):
Like my response to that is those people do not deserve offspring at this time.

(00:22:23):
Like, and people are going to get mad and I really don't care.

(00:22:25):
I'm serious.

(00:22:26):
If you are not prepared to take care of both the baby that you made with the person

(00:22:33):
who bears the brunt of all reproductive processes,

(00:22:36):
traumas,

(00:22:37):
scars for the rest of their life,

(00:22:40):
If you're not prepared to care for them and to love them,

(00:22:43):
you don't deserve progeny at this time.

(00:22:45):
And like, I'm so I'm sure people are like, oh, she sounded so nice in the beginning.

(00:22:50):
No, I'm called digital dominatrix for a reason.

(00:22:52):
I'm super serious.

(00:22:53):
And like, I have a whole little workbook on why you don't.

(00:22:57):
I'm like, it's not, I'm not coming from a eugenics standpoint.

(00:22:59):
I'm not saying you should never have children,

(00:23:01):
but I am certainly saying right now you should not.

(00:23:04):
Not for, not for the sake of your partner.

(00:23:06):
It is not safe for that baby that this person just had.

(00:23:09):
Like it simply isn't safe.

(00:23:11):
And you should have never put anybody, let alone the most innocent of people, right?

(00:23:15):
The infant, nor the person who had the infant in that position.

(00:23:19):
I really, I don't have additional comments.

(00:23:22):
Yeah,

(00:23:22):
well,

(00:23:23):
I mean,

(00:23:23):
I think,

(00:23:23):
I mean,

(00:23:24):
I would go further and say it's not just that you don't deserve to have children.

(00:23:28):
I don't think you really deserve love at that point.

(00:23:32):
I mean,

(00:23:32):
certainly that is,

(00:23:34):
yeah,

(00:23:34):
like,

(00:23:34):
you know,

(00:23:34):
I'm clearly,

(00:23:35):
this is the maternal child health specialist in me.

(00:23:37):
I'm going directly to reproductive outcomes, but I feel like love's not even on the table.

(00:23:41):
You're a danger to all of the people you brought into the world.

(00:23:44):
So we can't even discuss that, right?

(00:23:46):
Like,

(00:23:47):
At this point in time, you clearly can't take care of yourself.

(00:23:50):
You are not in a position as an adult to demand extra beneficial treatment when you

(00:23:56):
can't take care of yourself and you're unwilling to take care of the people that

(00:24:00):
you're responsible for being here in the situation with you.

(00:24:03):
So I think my mind just like, like blanks out that request.

(00:24:08):
So yeah, yes, I agree with you, but I didn't even, I like disposed of that desire.

(00:24:13):
Not even going to consider it.

(00:24:14):
Not even considering it.

(00:24:16):
No.

(00:24:17):
All right.

(00:24:17):
So one thing that I saw when I was doing more reproductive justice kind of work

(00:24:23):
that relates to this with men just demanding love from the person who is the most

(00:24:29):
exhausted and demoralized that she has ever,

(00:24:31):
ever been is the ways that men actively undermine their partners in early

(00:24:36):
parenting.

(00:24:38):
You know,

(00:24:38):
whether it was setting them up for breastfeeding failure or their emotional needs

(00:24:44):
when they're giving birth.

(00:24:45):
I mean,

(00:24:45):
I know so many men who just said horrible things to their partners when they were

(00:24:48):
giving birth or who slept through the whole thing,

(00:24:51):
you know,

(00:24:51):
checking out during postpartum.

(00:24:53):
Well,

(00:24:54):
you know,

(00:24:54):
it's the most it's the most high risk time period for domestic violence and IPV is

(00:24:59):
the time period between pregnancy and 18 months postpartum.

(00:25:02):
That's like two years.

(00:25:03):
It's like two years and two months.

(00:25:05):
It's a ridiculous amount of time.

(00:25:07):
Yeah.

(00:25:07):
And we like to, you know, we frame this as like, oh, he's just struggling.

(00:25:11):
It's so hard for him.

(00:25:13):
No, whatever.

(00:25:14):
What kind of person resorts to abusing other human beings when they're struggling?

(00:25:18):
I mean,

(00:25:19):
like,

(00:25:19):
these are the questions I ask when people,

(00:25:20):
why is that your default setting for I'm having a hard time?

(00:25:24):
I become a miserable, monstrous person.

(00:25:26):
I want people to answer me when they say things like that.

(00:25:29):
Because what other people do we excuse?

(00:25:30):
We don't excuse other people.

(00:25:32):
If your doctor does malpractice to you and then you're like, oh, he was just having a bad day.

(00:25:39):
OK, and he killed someone.

(00:25:40):
Like, how is that supposed to be an excuse?

(00:25:43):
We don't allow people in other contexts to get away with that.

(00:25:47):
There's no reason other than straight up sexism that we allow men to skirt off with that excuse.

(00:25:53):
And for me,

(00:25:54):
when I tell the man who I'm working with,

(00:25:56):
I ask them straight out,

(00:25:57):
like,

(00:25:57):
don't you feel bad about yourself?

(00:26:03):
No, they don't.

(00:26:04):
No, you know what?

(00:26:05):
They do.

(00:26:06):
But again, this is the people who I'm getting.

(00:26:08):
There's plenty of people who don't.

(00:26:09):
Trust me, I divorced one of them, right?

(00:26:11):
He did not feel bad about what he was doing.

(00:26:13):
That's why we're not together anymore.

(00:26:15):
There's a lot of people like him, unfortunately.

(00:26:18):
But there are some men who really do feel bad.

(00:26:20):
They really do feel guilt and shame.

(00:26:22):
And I have to tell them, that is your conscience.

(00:26:25):
It's a damn thing to tell you that you could have made a better decision.

(00:26:28):
Now,

(00:26:29):
how can we take this energy,

(00:26:30):
right,

(00:26:31):
that you're harboring,

(00:26:32):
that is making you feel bad about yourself and therefore perpetuating you behaving

(00:26:36):
badly with other people?

(00:26:37):
Because whenever you're harboring self-loathing,

(00:26:39):
it never improves how you treat other human beings.

(00:26:42):
Right.

(00:26:43):
And I told them that.

(00:26:44):
But I frequently will just go straight for the jugular.

(00:26:46):
Don't you feel bad about yourself?

(00:26:50):
And they're like, oh my God, I do.

(00:26:52):
And I'm like, yeah, okay.

(00:26:53):
Well, would you like to feel better?

(00:26:54):
You want to feel better?

(00:26:55):
You have to act better.

(00:26:56):
Are you ready to do the work?

(00:26:58):
It's just a frequent question that I have for them.

(00:27:01):
Because my thing is like, you're never, even if you try to be better and it's difficult,

(00:27:06):
In the process of trying and failing to create new pro-social habits,

(00:27:11):
you'll never feel worse than you do when you're harming another person.

(00:27:16):
And like,

(00:27:17):
granted,

(00:27:18):
there's some men that are,

(00:27:19):
I think,

(00:27:20):
I don't want to say that they're beyond hope,

(00:27:22):
but like,

(00:27:22):
I'm not the right person to see you.

(00:27:25):
If they're redeemable, right?

(00:27:27):
Because I may not think that they are.

(00:27:29):
Maybe somebody else needs to handle those cases.

(00:27:31):
But in these situations where the men are like,

(00:27:33):
my wife sent me to you and I don't want to lose everything.

(00:27:35):
I know I'm bad at what I'm doing.

(00:27:37):
Can you help me?

(00:27:38):
Like, am I salvageable?

(00:27:39):
Yeah.

(00:27:40):
I know that if they're coming to me with this, that they are, but I have to get them.

(00:27:44):
Instead of asking somebody else, you tell me, I can't do this for you.

(00:27:47):
Are you salvageable?

(00:27:48):
Like, are you capable of doing the work?

(00:27:50):
And sometimes I dig into that masculinity aspect of like, oh, I'm so strong.

(00:27:55):
I'm so this and that.

(00:27:56):
And then I'm like, okay, we'll prove it.

(00:27:58):
You know, like,

(00:28:01):
proving according to you this is the man that you are but nobody's gonna believe

(00:28:05):
you if you keep acting like this and so i basically you know i go through this

(00:28:08):
process of like re sort of redefining what it means to be a man with them and we

(00:28:14):
have to come up with it you know this is where it helps for men to be literally so

(00:28:19):
few of them are but frequently the ones who are coming to me again i'm dealing i'm

(00:28:23):
dealing with a different cohorts

(00:28:25):
It's a different sample size of men.

(00:28:27):
Frequently, they are pretty literate.

(00:28:29):
And so we can dig into,

(00:28:30):
you know,

(00:28:31):
like art and all of these different ideas,

(00:28:33):
almost like archetypes,

(00:28:35):
right?

(00:28:36):
That they can compare themselves to and what they would rather be or what they can combine.

(00:28:40):
But yeah, it's...

(00:28:43):
Nobody deserves love when they're acting like that.

(00:28:45):
And sometimes the most simple thing I have to do is role playing with them of like,

(00:28:50):
imagine you were a woman or this and that or whatever.

(00:28:52):
I'm being very simplistic right now, but some form of role playing.

(00:28:56):
And as soon as I get them to start going through that,

(00:28:59):
or I assign them like,

(00:29:00):
you need to read this poem.

(00:29:01):
play like whatever is happening they come back and they'll send me this text

(00:29:05):
inevitably of like I'm a douchebag I'm like well you have been but you don't have

(00:29:09):
to be so what's it gonna be right like that's a decision you can change it today if

(00:29:15):
you want to so you actually like that's how I deal with it like they yeah I am yeah

(00:29:22):
Although I'm, they don't get to decide if they're making progress.

(00:29:25):
Like they can tell me how, they don't.

(00:29:27):
They can tell me how they feel when the person who referred them,

(00:29:31):
who is,

(00:29:32):
you know,

(00:29:33):
on the receiving end of the relationship they're trying to save,

(00:29:35):
that person is the judge.

(00:29:37):
And that's part of the agreement.

(00:29:38):
It's literally in my contract with them.

(00:29:41):
They don't get to decide.

(00:29:42):
Like,

(00:29:43):
if they want to decide whether or not they're doing a good job in their

(00:29:46):
relationships,

(00:29:47):
what on earth do they need a coach or a therapist or anybody else for it?

(00:29:50):
Do you know what I mean?

(00:29:50):
Like, why bring somebody else into that just self-flage process?

(00:29:55):
Nobody needs to be involved if you've already decided that you're the police

(00:29:59):
officer and the jury and the judge of your own behavior.

(00:30:02):
That's a waste.

(00:30:04):
Well, I actually think it's such, like,

(00:30:07):
It's such an insightful model.

(00:30:09):
And I actually because I think it highlights what tends to go wrong in traditional

(00:30:14):
therapy because.

(00:30:16):
Yes.

(00:30:16):
What typically happens in therapy is couples go into therapy and I think they

(00:30:21):
really go into therapy to have someone tell them who's right and who's wrong.

(00:30:25):
Right.

(00:30:25):
But really, if your relationship is not working for you, you're right.

(00:30:31):
Like you're not, you're allowed to just ask for what you need.

(00:30:34):
And so for you to go back to the woman and say, okay, well, is he doing it now?

(00:30:41):
Right.

(00:30:42):
I just think this really hits on

(00:30:44):
what's going wrong in couples therapy?

(00:30:47):
At least as it pertains to this particular aspect, right, that this niche that I'm dealing with.

(00:30:52):
I mean,

(00:30:52):
I have,

(00:30:53):
I have had a couple lesbian couples over the years,

(00:30:57):
which this is a completely different conversation that we can have later,

(00:31:01):
where one of

(00:31:03):
you know,

(00:31:03):
the femmes in the relationship,

(00:31:05):
I suspected there was like some IPV and stuff happening.

(00:31:08):
I'm mentioning that because often it's the male identified person,

(00:31:12):
the more masculine person,

(00:31:13):
the more androgynous person,

(00:31:15):
same as an androgynous person who's given birth and breast pen for 10 years.

(00:31:21):
I think that it's fascinating how much concepts of identity and even identifying with an idea

(00:31:30):
how we view the idea,

(00:31:31):
what we believe we deserve and what type of behavior we think that we should

(00:31:36):
expect,

(00:31:38):
it impacts everybody who internalizes it.

(00:31:41):
So I say that because part of my model is archetypal, right?

(00:31:45):
And so even that, like I'm basically practicing Jungian psychology.

(00:31:49):
One of the reasons why I,

(00:31:51):
in part,

(00:31:52):
not in total,

(00:31:53):
but in the concepts that I'm leading people towards,

(00:31:55):
one of the reasons why I,

(00:31:58):
stop because I was going before I got my most recent degree,

(00:32:01):
you know,

(00:32:01):
I had three degrees and they were all basically psychology in some way,

(00:32:05):
shape or form.

(00:32:06):
And then I switched entirely and I went to sociology with the last one.

(00:32:10):
But constantly people were like, you're so close, right?

(00:32:13):
Like to being an actual therapist with a full license.

(00:32:16):
I have all of these like credentials and counseling credentials and certificates and whatever.

(00:32:23):
But when I started shadowing people, I was like, you know, this is wasteful.

(00:32:27):
I just I just felt like because because the way that the Western psychology is done

(00:32:34):
does not allow like it considers it biased to talk about the bias that is innate.

(00:32:41):
within social structure.

(00:32:42):
Do you know what I mean?

(00:32:42):
And so it's so circular and it completely avoids the origin of folks' problems,

(00:32:47):
which is the innate biases within the identities that we are either born into or

(00:32:53):
that we adopt within a stratified society.

(00:32:56):
Well, how am I supposed to break down the origin of this person's entitlement?

(00:33:00):
Do you know what I mean?

(00:33:01):
Like,

(00:33:01):
how do we talk about where these unspoken expectations come from if they existed

(00:33:05):
before the relationship if I can't talk about sociological structures,

(00:33:09):
right?

(00:33:09):
Like in therapy.

(00:33:11):
So I just exited that entirely because I had already had friends who were full-on

(00:33:15):
psychiatrists,

(00:33:15):
psychologists,

(00:33:16):
right?

(00:33:16):
They were, you know, LCSWs, MSWs, all of these other things.

(00:33:21):
And they practiced for 10 years and they were like, I'm not getting anywhere.

(00:33:24):
And all of them were Black, Indigenous, right?

(00:33:27):
Queer, whatever was happening.

(00:33:28):
And they stopped and they became coaches so that they can incorporate basically a

(00:33:33):
decolonial view of

(00:33:36):
into their therapy and be more forthright with people right about like where are

(00:33:41):
you actually getting your ideas both about other people's behavior and about what

(00:33:46):
you think you deserve or how you should be allowed to act from because there's so

(00:33:50):
few you don't get you don't talk about that in cbt right like you don't

(00:33:55):
You don't.

(00:33:56):
And so,

(00:33:57):
yes,

(00:33:57):
to your point,

(00:33:58):
it's trying to circumvent the problem that regular Western psychology does,

(00:34:04):
which circles the drains of the origin of people's behaviors,

(00:34:08):
right?

(00:34:09):
Yeah.

(00:34:10):
So, yes.

(00:34:11):
Yes, that's an amazing point.

(00:34:13):
And I hope listeners will just rewind and listen to that over and over again,

(00:34:16):
because that is why therapy is going wrong,

(00:34:20):
is that therapists have to

(00:34:23):
treat all perspectives as equally valid and they're not.

(00:34:26):
They're absolutely not.

(00:34:27):
I mean,

(00:34:28):
they're valid and they're valuable because you're trying to resolve a problem and

(00:34:34):
therefore you need to know what in the world is motivating this person to continue

(00:34:39):
a behavior that's not having

(00:34:41):
you know, like healthy outcomes either in themselves or other people.

(00:34:44):
But valuable in the context of I'm trying to solve this problem and valued in the

(00:34:50):
context of this is a general idea that is good and other people should attach

(00:34:54):
themselves to or to completely different things.

(00:34:57):
And I feel like they get conflated in Western therapy and I just don't have the

(00:35:00):
patience for that.

(00:35:02):
I don't think it's fruitful.

(00:35:03):
So I want to go back to something you were talking about a few minutes ago,

(00:35:07):
which is this idea that a lot of men have

(00:35:11):
Basically, that they shouldn't have to feel bad about themselves.

(00:35:13):
And I see this a lot, a lot when women confront their partners with inequality.

(00:35:20):
And there are, well, fine, I guess I'm just an abusive asshole and I should just die.

(00:35:24):
And then she has to comfort him.

(00:35:28):
I'm not laughing because it's funny.

(00:35:30):
I was laughing because most recently in one of my coaching sessions,

(00:35:33):
the wife was finally like,

(00:35:34):
sure,

(00:35:35):
like very flatly.

(00:35:36):
Yeah.

(00:35:36):
Yeah.

(00:35:37):
Yeah.

(00:35:38):
But it allowed us to get somewhere because she was like, you know what, whatever.

(00:35:42):
If that's the conclusion you want to make for me asking you to be a better person,

(00:35:47):
then on some level you are no longer useful.

(00:35:49):
And this is exactly what she said to him.

(00:35:51):
And he actually had a light bulb moment, right?

(00:35:53):
Because he was no longer being coddled emotionally.

(00:35:56):
Thank God for that.

(00:35:58):
But it reminds me,

(00:35:59):
so I just did this interview with the philosopher Kate Mann and she's been starting

(00:36:03):
to write a little bit about how

(00:36:07):
We've I want to do justice to her idea and not overstate it.

(00:36:10):
You know, being in a permanent state of shame, I think we all agree is not good for you.

(00:36:14):
No,

(00:36:15):
but but what she argues is that shame in itself is not bad because we know about,

(00:36:23):
you know,

(00:36:23):
there are bad actions.

(00:36:25):
But when you undertake those bad actions for long enough,

(00:36:28):
that starts to mean something about you as a person.

(00:36:32):
And you then have the ability to change that.

(00:36:36):
And the only way you can really change that is if you confront what those actions

(00:36:40):
mean about you as a person.

(00:36:41):
And I think this is something that structures of power bake into the mix that

(00:36:48):
powerful people should not have to do.

(00:36:50):
And we also see it, especially with like white women in anti-racist spaces of like, yes.

(00:36:55):
I'm the greatest ally who ever lived.

(00:36:57):
How dare you question me?

(00:36:59):
Think of all the things I do for you.

(00:37:01):
Yeah.

(00:37:02):
And I just,

(00:37:04):
you know,

(00:37:04):
but I see the parallel with men too,

(00:37:06):
of like,

(00:37:07):
you're not allowed to make me feel bad.

(00:37:09):
You can only confront me with the bad things I've done.

(00:37:12):
if you don't make me feel like a bad person.

(00:37:15):
Right, as long as you say it's okay that I did them.

(00:37:17):
Yeah.

(00:37:18):
It's just a little boo-boo.

(00:37:20):
It's fine.

(00:37:20):
Maybe you need to feel like you're a bad person.

(00:37:23):
Right.

(00:37:24):
Change.

(00:37:25):
I mean, I remember a very, very powerful experience for me in middle school

(00:37:31):
Was I went to like a really diverse school and I just like I always mostly had black friends.

(00:37:39):
And then to like my little white brain in middle school,

(00:37:42):
something changed and I didn't I didn't understand what it was.

(00:37:47):
And then some of my like black friends kind of like confronted me and they were

(00:37:51):
very angry with me and they said,

(00:37:54):
you know,

(00:37:54):
you don't understand what life is like for us basically.

(00:37:57):
And I was like so hurt because I was like my friends have rejected me and I didn't

(00:38:03):
do anything to them.

(00:38:04):
And, you know, look how good I am.

(00:38:08):
And I like I remember like I went home and I told my mom and she said,

(00:38:13):
well,

(00:38:13):
you're not actually good if you're not listening to them.

(00:38:17):
Oh, and I just five stars mom.

(00:38:21):
Yeah.

(00:38:22):
It's so simple, but it's so insightful, right?

(00:38:25):
It just makes you rethink everything that you're doing.

(00:38:27):
And so I just like sat with that.

(00:38:30):
And then I like kind of like worked it out with my friends and then didn't really

(00:38:35):
have those problems like with my Black friends anymore.

(00:38:39):
And it was amazing.

(00:38:40):
I think because I was periodically like willing to sit with like,

(00:38:45):
oh,

(00:38:45):
they're like undertaking the risk of being friends with an oppressor.

(00:38:50):
And like, I need to

(00:38:51):
Yes, absolutely.

(00:38:53):
With what that could mean about me if I don't listen to them.

(00:38:57):
And I just, you know, I see a lot of parallels between that and how men are.

(00:39:05):
When I do my podcast, will you promise to come on and talk about that?

(00:39:09):
I do.

(00:39:12):
I think that's lovely.

(00:39:14):
And I want it lovely, like the process, right?

(00:39:16):
Not the stress involved, but the outcome.

(00:39:18):
Right.

(00:39:19):
And I wish everybody would be open to transformation.

(00:39:23):
I think that's where I can bridge these two topics.

(00:39:26):
Right.

(00:39:27):
I think though, too, this is, you know, this gets to when I'm talking about decolonizing.

(00:39:32):
Psychology,

(00:39:33):
I don't know that this is an explicit,

(00:39:36):
it's not an explicit part of psychology because it's certainly not what we're

(00:39:40):
taught any of the times I got any of my degrees.

(00:39:43):
But I do think it is an implicit part of colonial collective mindset is the

(00:39:49):
staticness of identity.

(00:39:53):
And that is in such direct contrast to all beliefs that affirm Afro,

(00:39:58):
Indigenous,

(00:39:59):
Asiatic,

(00:40:00):
anything besides white people.

(00:40:02):
And so getting to your point about the shame and even to your experience so young,

(00:40:08):
which seemed like you had so much more ease,

(00:40:10):
although I really do give like a super big high five to your mom because that was

(00:40:14):
such a wonderful way for her to put it out with you without demonizing you.

(00:40:18):
And I do think that that's important, right?

(00:40:20):
We do want people to change.

(00:40:22):
So even if we tell people you did something that was shit,

(00:40:26):
excuse my French,

(00:40:27):
it's not the same as telling people that they are shit,

(00:40:29):
right?

(00:40:31):
like those are those are different things and there may be appropriate times for

(00:40:34):
both but i think for all of us it's important to think about the difference the

(00:40:38):
function of shame you know when you look at these like honor shame culture and all

(00:40:42):
of that stuff which certainly i come from an honor shame culture the function of

(00:40:46):
shame in its most useful format is to lead one to remorse

(00:40:52):
And remorse is an agent of change.

(00:40:56):
It's literally a catalyst, just like anger.

(00:40:58):
It's supposed to point out to you,

(00:41:00):
you feel bad because you did something bad,

(00:41:04):
but that's not the same as I did something bad.

(00:41:06):
Therefore I am bad indefinitely.

(00:41:08):
Right.

(00:41:09):
And I feel like that's for some weirdo reason, both were men and white women.

(00:41:14):
people in general get stuck like doing an action is not prescriptive even when it's

(00:41:20):
a habit even when it's a lifestyle that you've done for decades every day that you

(00:41:24):
get up you can change right we see this in biology we see this in zoology we really

(00:41:30):
see it in every aspect of life except for this strange push and pull that's been

(00:41:34):
created by colonial society and i really do believe it's unnatural

(00:41:38):
Like,

(00:41:39):
I deeply believe that a lot of men's anxiety that they feel is trying to uphold

(00:41:45):
this delusion about masculinity being static and being concrete.

(00:41:50):
Because gender is none of those things, right?

(00:41:52):
Let alone masculinity.

(00:41:53):
And I feel like if people would just let this go,

(00:41:57):
then also the accountability process now is able to take root.

(00:42:02):
Of course,

(00:42:02):
if the accountability process takes root,

(00:42:04):
then the whole system is also going to have to transform.

(00:42:06):
And there's plenty of people invested in that not happening.

(00:42:09):
Also, like different conversation there.

(00:42:11):
But for people who were listening,

(00:42:13):
who were wondering why what I'm doing works,

(00:42:17):
I think there's various reasons.

(00:42:18):
But I think the biggest thing is that

(00:42:21):
to find out that you are not stuck in a situation or an identity or a belief system

(00:42:28):
or even a status level that you were born into,

(00:42:33):
forced into,

(00:42:33):
expected to go into,

(00:42:35):
finding out that you could change it and maintain your worth and also maintain your

(00:42:40):
power.

(00:42:41):
I don't mean power in the sense of force.

(00:42:43):
I mean power in the sense of responsibility, right?

(00:42:45):
Power in the capacity for you to determine what type of impact

(00:42:50):
You have in the world around you and the people in your life.

(00:42:53):
When I'm able to translate to men,

(00:42:55):
like you can choose,

(00:42:57):
you can still call yourself a man and you can still have power.

(00:43:00):
But imagine if you used your power and you made everyone around you feel really

(00:43:06):
good because you know good and well,

(00:43:07):
everybody in your life loathes you.

(00:43:09):
at the moment and wouldn't you like to change that right i do being so honest i

(00:43:16):
feel so i feel like some of the some of the people who've been in my caseload are

(00:43:20):
going to listen to this and be like oh no she tells everybody this not everyone i

(00:43:25):
do customize it for the situations

(00:43:27):
So this is like my little evangelism spiel, I guess.

(00:43:30):
That's what I sound like.

(00:43:32):
Like, yeah, that's what I do.

(00:43:34):
But I mean,

(00:43:35):
that's such a beautiful message that like change is the natural course of things

(00:43:39):
and that,

(00:43:41):
you know.

(00:43:41):
Don't you want to change in a good way?

(00:43:43):
I've asked this too.

(00:43:44):
Like you're going to change.

(00:43:45):
You're fighting it and it is futile.

(00:43:47):
Wouldn't you like to take control over the way you're changing?

(00:43:51):
Like it's never too late.

(00:43:52):
And be proud of it.

(00:43:53):
It's never too late.

(00:43:54):
It's never too late to be good.

(00:43:55):
Never.

(00:43:55):
Yes.

(00:43:56):
Yes.

(00:43:57):
And even if you're bad one day,

(00:43:59):
granted,

(00:43:59):
the consequences may be the people that you dealt with that day don't want to deal

(00:44:03):
with you anymore.

(00:44:04):
And that's sad.

(00:44:04):
And we'll have to go through a grief process.

(00:44:06):
But there's four, you know, there's billions of other people.

(00:44:10):
Four billion.

(00:44:10):
I think we're at eight billion now.

(00:44:11):
My brain is like 20 years ago.

(00:44:14):
Billions of other people on the planet and you can redeem yourself.

(00:44:18):
As long as you got up today, it's possible.

(00:44:21):
You would be amazed how many men tell me that they get a sense of liberation.

(00:44:26):
I get a lot of crying.

(00:44:27):
I get a lot of journaling.

(00:44:32):
I get a lot of a lot of things.

(00:44:33):
Most of my clients end up going back into therapy and psychiatry because those are

(00:44:38):
good tools to work out certain things.

(00:44:41):
But I think social liberation needs a different model.

(00:44:44):
And we currently don't have any therapy processes.

(00:44:48):
that offer the type of coaching that i'm getting and that i know some of my other

(00:44:55):
colleagues are giving not that i know of not formally yeah so i'm just trying to

(00:45:00):
fill the void at the moment

(00:45:02):
Well, that's great.

(00:45:04):
It's thoughtful.

(00:45:05):
And it's a wonderful place to end things.

(00:45:07):
Elsie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

(00:45:10):
It's been amazing to have you here.

(00:45:12):
Thank you for having me.

(00:45:14):
Listeners, as always, I will put all of Elsie's info in the show notes.

(00:45:18):
And there's tons more resources that you can check out.

(00:45:22):
And I will be back next week.