1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,060 Andy Polaine: Hello, welcome to Power of Ten, a show about design operating 2 00:00:12,060 --> 00:00:15,330 at many levels of Zoom from thoughtful detail through to transformation in 3 00:00:15,330 --> 00:00:17,160 organization, society, and the world. 4 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:18,850 My name is Andy Polaine. 5 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:22,170 I'm a design leadership coach, designer, educator, and writer. 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,044 My guest today is Francesca Cortesi, a passionate product leader with over 7 00:00:27,044 --> 00:00:30,375 a decade of experience in scaling digital products that users love 8 00:00:30,555 --> 00:00:31,935 and that drive sustainable growth. 9 00:00:32,655 --> 00:00:35,835 Has worked with Europe's fastest growing companies, from startups to 10 00:00:35,835 --> 00:00:38,265 IPOs, delivering tangible results. 11 00:00:38,595 --> 00:00:41,775 Her most recent role was as Chief product officer at Sweden's leading 12 00:00:41,775 --> 00:00:45,254 property platform, Hemnet, and just started her own consultancy. 13 00:00:45,495 --> 00:00:47,175 Francesca, welcome to Power of 10. 14 00:00:47,595 --> 00:00:48,945 Francesca Cortesi: Hello, and thank you for having me. 15 00:00:49,004 --> 00:00:49,515 Andy Polaine: It's a pleasure. 16 00:00:49,515 --> 00:00:53,325 Now, we met over a sort of comment exchange or or post you wrote on 17 00:00:53,325 --> 00:00:55,215 LinkedIn, and I comment, we're gonna get to it in a minute. 18 00:00:55,260 --> 00:00:59,699 Um, I would like to just hear a little bit more about how you gotta, where 19 00:00:59,699 --> 00:01:01,050 you're now, what's been your journey. 20 00:01:01,379 --> 00:01:05,759 Francesca Cortesi: I'm gonna give you the elevator pitch of my past 15 years maybe. 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,700 Uh, that's when pretty much I started in a product. 22 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:10,890 It's, that's when I moved to Sweden. 23 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:13,020 I'm originally from Italy and in my. 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,110 Previous life as I call it. 25 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,450 Uh, I was not working digital at all. 26 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:20,090 I was working in the fashion world in Milan. 27 00:01:20,119 --> 00:01:24,050 And maybe, you know, if you watch the Devil's Worst Prada 28 00:01:24,050 --> 00:01:27,350 or this kind of things, uh, you know, that that is not digital. 29 00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:30,289 It's like you want to be there, you want to be at the show, you want to touch 30 00:01:30,289 --> 00:01:32,240 the things, you wanna see the catwalks. 31 00:01:32,690 --> 00:01:35,060 Uh, that's what I was doing, uh, in my twenties. 32 00:01:35,450 --> 00:01:39,140 Uh, until I decided to, uh, move to Stockholm, Sweden. 33 00:01:39,470 --> 00:01:44,750 Uh, and there basically I accidentally start working with digital and as 34 00:01:44,750 --> 00:01:47,270 accidentally I stumbled into product. 35 00:01:47,540 --> 00:01:52,550 Uh, my background, uh, it's in philosophy, but what I was doing, uh, actually 36 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:57,080 is doing, you can call it project management because all those shows 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:58,730 and fashion shows and stuff mm-hmm. 38 00:01:58,910 --> 00:02:00,890 Um, it's basically a project. 39 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,500 You have like a deadline, you have a time, you have people, you 40 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:05,880 have to invite all the things. 41 00:02:06,150 --> 00:02:09,150 Uh, and I started to do that in Sweden, just digitally. 42 00:02:09,420 --> 00:02:14,130 And then I realized that I wanted a little bit more, uh, I wanted to, uh, 43 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:16,620 understand why we were doing things. 44 00:02:16,890 --> 00:02:19,560 And that's when I, uh, stumbled into product. 45 00:02:19,620 --> 00:02:23,280 And back then, uh, this is when you understand, and I'm really old. 46 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,880 Back then, uh, there was nothing, I mean, there was not such a thing 47 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,370 of, oh, you'd be a product manager. 48 00:02:29,370 --> 00:02:30,270 I mean, there was not. 49 00:02:30,345 --> 00:02:30,915 That. 50 00:02:31,875 --> 00:02:33,765 Kind of wording for it. 51 00:02:33,825 --> 00:02:40,125 Uh, a lot of, um, concept that we use today that, uh, will be like, uh, product 52 00:02:40,125 --> 00:02:43,109 led growth, uh, growth hacking, uh mm-hmm. 53 00:02:43,195 --> 00:02:45,555 Product management or all these kind of things. 54 00:02:45,555 --> 00:02:48,885 I mean, we were doing them, uh, but we weren't calling them like that. 55 00:02:49,274 --> 00:02:54,075 Uh, so I started, uh, I was working in a game, uh, company and a community, 56 00:02:54,375 --> 00:02:57,674 and I started to be responsible for engagement and retention. 57 00:02:57,945 --> 00:02:58,910 So what you were called. 58 00:02:59,305 --> 00:03:01,015 Product led growth today. 59 00:03:01,345 --> 00:03:02,605 Uh, I did that. 60 00:03:02,665 --> 00:03:03,265 Um. 61 00:03:03,885 --> 00:03:07,635 And then, uh, worked for an e-commerce, uh, where I was 62 00:03:07,635 --> 00:03:09,135 their second product manager. 63 00:03:09,195 --> 00:03:13,155 Uh, and I built up, uh, together with my colleagues, the old product function. 64 00:03:13,575 --> 00:03:18,315 Uh, I did my own thing for a while, uh, creating my own little startup. 65 00:03:18,345 --> 00:03:19,755 Uh, that did not work. 66 00:03:20,235 --> 00:03:23,985 Uh, so I learned a lot what it means to have product market fit 67 00:03:23,985 --> 00:03:25,365 and how you should think about that. 68 00:03:25,785 --> 00:03:26,925 Uh, and then I ended up. 69 00:03:27,165 --> 00:03:32,295 Uh, as you said at Hamnet, uh, which is, um, Sweden's biggest property portal or 70 00:03:32,295 --> 00:03:34,484 where you go to buy and sell properties. 71 00:03:34,785 --> 00:03:39,464 It's also one of the most apps, uh, the most used apps, uh, in the country. 72 00:03:39,795 --> 00:03:42,345 Um, and, uh, I've been there for six years. 73 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:47,399 Uh, going through their, uh, building up their product development there 74 00:03:47,399 --> 00:03:52,679 as well, IPOing the company until I realized that, uh, we were really 75 00:03:52,679 --> 00:03:54,359 good for each other for a long time. 76 00:03:54,359 --> 00:03:57,630 Maybe that was like the end of a really nice story. 77 00:03:57,899 --> 00:04:02,640 Uh, and I, uh, starting now, uh, my own, uh, my own gig, uh, with 78 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,060 the idea of helping companies in, uh, growth stages because that's, 79 00:04:06,060 --> 00:04:07,109 uh, that's what I'm good at. 80 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:07,829 Andy Polaine: Great. 81 00:04:07,890 --> 00:04:09,030 Alright, we'll get to that in a minute. 82 00:04:09,090 --> 00:04:12,780 So we met, as it were, you wrote a post on LinkedIn and it was about this 83 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:18,420 idea that PMs are not just there for to, you know, you said, we initially 84 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:21,510 said, do you believe that a PM's job is to protect the team and then help 85 00:04:21,510 --> 00:04:25,530 them focus on execution and the product management should own the what and why. 86 00:04:25,595 --> 00:04:28,175 And, you know, being the expert around the customer and the business 87 00:04:28,175 --> 00:04:29,525 and leaving the how to the team. 88 00:04:29,915 --> 00:04:32,015 And you said, you know, I used to think that way, but I realized 89 00:04:32,015 --> 00:04:34,745 it kind of blocked innovation and you kind of had a shift for that. 90 00:04:35,285 --> 00:04:37,625 And um, maybe you could tell say a bit more about it and then 91 00:04:37,625 --> 00:04:40,235 I'll talk about what my response was and how we then kind of met. 92 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:42,150 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah, we go to the juy stuff here. 93 00:04:42,460 --> 00:04:42,750 Yeah. 94 00:04:42,755 --> 00:04:43,565 Yeah. 95 00:04:43,570 --> 00:04:48,125 But uh, as I said, I mean, I had the realization, uh, kind of, um. 96 00:04:48,750 --> 00:04:52,890 In the past months in my career, uh, like understanding, I mean, what, what's 97 00:04:52,890 --> 00:04:56,790 my role, what I want, and where should we go, which made me reflect a lot. 98 00:04:57,210 --> 00:05:01,140 And from those reflection, uh, I said like when I started there was not 99 00:05:01,140 --> 00:05:05,969 really boundaries for product managers, uh, or product management in general. 100 00:05:06,180 --> 00:05:11,310 But I would say that even today, the discipline, it's a bit misunderstood. 101 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:18,090 And, uh, I believe, uh, personal belief, uh, is that, um, you don't have an output 102 00:05:18,270 --> 00:05:20,010 at the end of the day of your work. 103 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:24,180 You don't have a design, you don't have a prototype, you don't have a line of code. 104 00:05:24,570 --> 00:05:29,730 So it becomes this like rule that is a bit fluffy and it's not well defined. 105 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,050 Uh, and it, it creates some frictions, right? 106 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,810 So when I thought about, when I stepped into product 107 00:05:36,810 --> 00:05:39,090 management like 13, 14 years ago. 108 00:05:39,645 --> 00:05:44,835 Basically what people told me, it was this one-liner you have to own, 109 00:05:44,835 --> 00:05:49,695 uh, the why, uh, and then the, the what and the how will be to the team. 110 00:05:49,695 --> 00:05:50,715 So that's your job. 111 00:05:50,715 --> 00:05:52,215 That's the expectation of you. 112 00:05:52,455 --> 00:05:53,745 That's what you have to do. 113 00:05:54,045 --> 00:05:54,855 Uh, and that's. 114 00:05:55,015 --> 00:05:59,245 What I try to do, basically like being the person that we're collecting all 115 00:05:59,245 --> 00:06:03,385 the inputs and try to navigate it and then translate it to the team. 116 00:06:03,385 --> 00:06:05,935 That will come in only in the very last step. 117 00:06:06,475 --> 00:06:09,595 And this is still, I mean, it's a little bit connected to the 118 00:06:09,865 --> 00:06:12,055 CEO of the product narrative. 119 00:06:12,295 --> 00:06:15,415 It's about, you know, being this person that is. 120 00:06:15,974 --> 00:06:21,104 In charge and is the one that is supposed to aggregate information, collect 121 00:06:21,104 --> 00:06:25,875 information, process information, and then come with an answer to a team. 122 00:06:26,265 --> 00:06:28,424 Uh, that's something that I was fed. 123 00:06:28,724 --> 00:06:31,755 Uh, and that's something that I still see around a lot. 124 00:06:32,174 --> 00:06:33,460 Uh, but when thinking about it. 125 00:06:34,650 --> 00:06:35,700 When working. 126 00:06:36,150 --> 00:06:38,520 I mean, that's not reality. 127 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:43,950 I mean, that's not reality for me because that, what that did is that I brought 128 00:06:43,950 --> 00:06:46,290 in a lot of competence really late. 129 00:06:46,890 --> 00:06:52,740 Like my designer, uh, lead or designer counterpart that could really work 130 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:58,380 with, um, how user interaction, usability, how do that going into 131 00:06:58,380 --> 00:07:03,420 the user journey or even the tech feasibility that will become already in. 132 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,460 I mean, they will come in when we add already the solution kind of decided, 133 00:07:08,550 --> 00:07:10,080 you know, we were going for something. 134 00:07:10,470 --> 00:07:14,700 But I realized that they had a lot of great inputs in the earlier 135 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:20,220 phases when we were shaping which kind of answer we should take. 136 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:20,610 Right? 137 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,320 So that's the old shift. 138 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,730 I mean, don't be the one that tries to collect everything, but bring people 139 00:07:26,730 --> 00:07:29,340 along with you as early as possible. 140 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:34,109 There is also a threshold in this because while I was, uh, testing in my career, 141 00:07:34,109 --> 00:07:36,120 this you cannot bring everyone along. 142 00:07:37,034 --> 00:07:40,695 At the same time because otherwise you will be extremely slow. 143 00:07:41,054 --> 00:07:46,094 And, uh, in Sweden especially, there is this culture of which is good for 144 00:07:46,094 --> 00:07:50,085 many, many ways, but a culture of include including a lot of people, 145 00:07:50,565 --> 00:07:54,224 uh, and everyone has to have a saying, uh, which is really good in 146 00:07:54,224 --> 00:07:56,325 theory, but slows you down a lot. 147 00:07:56,655 --> 00:08:00,659 So when, uh, time to market, of time to values of the essence you have. 148 00:08:01,005 --> 00:08:06,105 To find something in between which I found basically, uh, yeah, finding 149 00:08:06,105 --> 00:08:09,885 one representative from product one, from engineering, one from 150 00:08:09,885 --> 00:08:14,685 design, what many people call the product trio, uh, to work together. 151 00:08:14,895 --> 00:08:19,185 And also, uh, make it really clear that you, you are in it together. 152 00:08:19,395 --> 00:08:21,225 You might have your own competence. 153 00:08:21,225 --> 00:08:25,995 You, there's like the designer that should have the last word on usability, but I 154 00:08:25,995 --> 00:08:27,825 mean, you, the three of you should be. 155 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:29,460 One unit. 156 00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:30,150 Right. 157 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:33,299 Uh, so that's like, that was my post was all about. 158 00:08:33,570 --> 00:08:35,549 And there were a lot of discussions about it. 159 00:08:35,789 --> 00:08:37,020 Andy Polaine: There were a lot of discussions about it. 160 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:42,060 And my response was, was probably like kind of, you know, 500 word emoji shrug, 161 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:43,890 you know, of like how I, on a second. 162 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:45,390 Hasn't that always been the case? 163 00:08:45,390 --> 00:08:47,190 And so I was kinda surprised to read it, right? 164 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:50,430 'cause from, from someone who's been been design and digital for a very 165 00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:51,580 long time, I've kind, well this is. 166 00:08:52,105 --> 00:08:54,865 Obviously this is kind of how, how you should work, but obviously 167 00:08:55,015 --> 00:08:58,584 as a, as a coach, I have, and I'm coaching design leaders, I'm usually. 168 00:08:59,685 --> 00:09:00,825 I have a very biased sample. 169 00:09:00,855 --> 00:09:03,405 'cause often people come to coaching 'cause they're having a problem with 170 00:09:03,405 --> 00:09:05,655 the, um, some other stakeholders. 171 00:09:05,655 --> 00:09:08,325 And one of those is commonly, um, the product leadership. 172 00:09:08,835 --> 00:09:11,595 It's not always, I mean, have a lot of coachee who have really good relationships 173 00:09:11,595 --> 00:09:12,675 with their product leadership too. 174 00:09:12,975 --> 00:09:15,435 And one of the things that goes on with the way you describe that kind 175 00:09:15,435 --> 00:09:19,245 of form thing of like, I'm responsible for owning the why and the what. 176 00:09:19,305 --> 00:09:22,814 It obviously, it kind of completely robs the agency from everyone 177 00:09:22,814 --> 00:09:24,675 else who's further downstream. 178 00:09:24,975 --> 00:09:27,165 Which is one of the kind of things I think I've seen go on. 179 00:09:27,194 --> 00:09:28,455 And you know, you've seen it also. 180 00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:32,370 Play out in all the layoffs where a lot of, uh, senior designers have 181 00:09:32,370 --> 00:09:35,015 been fired and it's just kind of left a, a bunch of kind of junior. 182 00:09:35,775 --> 00:09:37,245 I'm gonna be rude again to those people. 183 00:09:37,245 --> 00:09:40,425 But, so, Figma jock is people who are executors of those things, doing 184 00:09:40,425 --> 00:09:44,265 delivery work, and then, you know, the, the, they don't really have any input 185 00:09:44,265 --> 00:09:47,985 into the how, if anyone can hear a kind of squeaking, it's my dog dreaming. 186 00:09:49,545 --> 00:09:51,885 And so, you know what that's turned out? 187 00:09:51,885 --> 00:09:54,795 I mean, the worst case scenario is kind of feature factory, right? 188 00:09:54,795 --> 00:09:57,165 Where people are just literally, it's like they're kind of just designing 189 00:09:57,165 --> 00:10:01,395 widgets coming down the, um, the assembly line and, and there's, there's not much. 190 00:10:01,709 --> 00:10:02,370 Thought behind it. 191 00:10:02,819 --> 00:10:05,850 Uh, they're just being told what to do and it can become very frustrating, 192 00:10:06,030 --> 00:10:08,579 but it's very frustrating, obviously, if you're more senior, because you've 193 00:10:08,579 --> 00:10:12,270 been used to, you know, contributing to being part of the research, 194 00:10:12,270 --> 00:10:14,069 contributing to kind of the the why. 195 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:18,180 Discovering the why, uh, of it, as well as, you know, thinking about 196 00:10:18,180 --> 00:10:19,260 the what and all those things. 197 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:22,350 So that was my sort of long response and we had kind of exchange about it. 198 00:10:22,350 --> 00:10:26,070 But one of the things that came up in the comments a lot was, was 199 00:10:26,070 --> 00:10:29,460 people, and there was often PMs saying, yes, but then who owns this? 200 00:10:29,460 --> 00:10:32,100 How do things get done if nobody owns this? 201 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:34,710 And if no one's, you know, keeping track of it. 202 00:10:34,710 --> 00:10:36,570 What, what other things did you see in there? 203 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,555 Because I've got some thoughts about that, but I, I want to say here. 204 00:10:39,085 --> 00:10:42,595 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah, I mean, I think like what you're describing, I mean, 205 00:10:43,345 --> 00:10:47,155 in a way, the people that have been working this way have the same reaction 206 00:10:47,155 --> 00:10:48,865 that you have as like Yeah, obviously. 207 00:10:49,015 --> 00:10:49,165 Yeah. 208 00:10:49,255 --> 00:10:52,165 Uh, because if you've been working in that way, then you 209 00:10:52,165 --> 00:10:54,415 see the impact that it makes. 210 00:10:54,505 --> 00:10:54,565 Yeah. 211 00:10:54,955 --> 00:10:59,875 I mean, when we say, I say a lot, uh, product development is a team sport and 212 00:10:59,875 --> 00:11:01,555 not only in the team, I mean, you have. 213 00:11:01,969 --> 00:11:05,449 A broader team, like including stakeholders, sales, marketing. 214 00:11:05,719 --> 00:11:08,660 I mean, if you have, you don't have distribution from the beginning, 215 00:11:08,660 --> 00:11:11,990 then you have an amazing product that is not gonna go anywhere. 216 00:11:12,319 --> 00:11:16,310 So, I mean, there is a lot of this, uh, but I think that 217 00:11:16,339 --> 00:11:22,280 product management is still such a young discipline, uh, and also. 218 00:11:23,415 --> 00:11:28,545 I mean, one core fact, uh, to this is that product managers do the 219 00:11:28,755 --> 00:11:31,605 really different jobs depending on the companies where they are. 220 00:11:31,995 --> 00:11:34,005 So there is no common view, yeah. 221 00:11:34,185 --> 00:11:38,625 Of what product management is or what product management does. 222 00:11:39,075 --> 00:11:43,215 Uh, there is a lot of context that needs to be applied, and in 223 00:11:43,215 --> 00:11:45,525 that contents comes expectations. 224 00:11:45,945 --> 00:11:50,235 So I believe that, uh, you come to the product management line of work if 225 00:11:50,235 --> 00:11:52,275 you are like a certain type of person. 226 00:11:52,575 --> 00:11:54,165 I mean, you want to make an impact. 227 00:11:54,435 --> 00:11:58,575 Uh, you are really driven, and I mean, you want to excel the expectation 228 00:11:58,575 --> 00:11:59,895 and it isn't yourself, right? 229 00:12:00,255 --> 00:12:02,565 So if the expectation is not calibrated. 230 00:12:03,405 --> 00:12:08,535 Then that's what becomes like maybe the company, I mean, different perspective. 231 00:12:08,535 --> 00:12:12,645 The one that you were describing, that designer that get, uh, get handled 232 00:12:12,704 --> 00:12:19,245 only the very last piece of designing the last thing might feel that he 233 00:12:19,245 --> 00:12:20,925 or she is in a feature factory. 234 00:12:21,015 --> 00:12:21,194 Yeah. 235 00:12:21,199 --> 00:12:26,235 While I, as a PM in that company that I feel like I'm going and talking and 236 00:12:26,235 --> 00:12:28,694 putting together, I feel really empowered. 237 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,880 So it becomes like this shift of different perspectives. 238 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,920 Uh, and I think there is also like the narrative that you were pointing 239 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:43,020 at, oh, if I don't have one person accountable, nothing will get done. 240 00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:44,790 But is it really, 241 00:12:45,330 --> 00:12:47,520 Andy Polaine: not really right, because people have been making 242 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,320 stuff for ages and stuff gets done. 243 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:49,410 Right. 244 00:12:49,650 --> 00:12:52,170 Francesca Cortesi: Also, my experience is that if, let's say 245 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:54,030 that you and I work in the same team. 246 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:54,240 Yeah. 247 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,760 Uh, and I mean, we work together as a team. 248 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:56,820 Yeah. 249 00:12:56,910 --> 00:12:58,530 Uh, we still divide. 250 00:12:58,845 --> 00:13:04,875 Tasks you'll still have maybe like, oh, you and they go and do some 251 00:13:04,875 --> 00:13:09,045 usability test or whatever might be feasible in exactly that moment. 252 00:13:09,045 --> 00:13:09,285 Right? 253 00:13:09,285 --> 00:13:14,475 Oh, we have to un we need to understand if this, uh, users will use this 254 00:13:14,475 --> 00:13:16,815 product, uh, or this kind of things. 255 00:13:17,115 --> 00:13:18,825 You will be the person to go to. 256 00:13:19,335 --> 00:13:19,395 Yeah. 257 00:13:19,395 --> 00:13:21,285 Like you are responsible for that part. 258 00:13:21,735 --> 00:13:25,005 While if I will be talking with, uh, I dunno, our. 259 00:13:25,455 --> 00:13:29,775 Pricing function or business development to understand how to put, you know, 260 00:13:29,775 --> 00:13:33,345 what, what should be the pricing of this product or which kind of, 261 00:13:33,345 --> 00:13:36,045 uh, what is our ICP or whatever. 262 00:13:36,345 --> 00:13:39,225 I mean, I will be the go-to person for those questions. 263 00:13:39,495 --> 00:13:39,555 Yeah. 264 00:13:39,555 --> 00:13:43,785 So even if like there is a team, you could still appoint responsibilities. 265 00:13:44,265 --> 00:13:48,150 So that, I mean that narrative, I'm, I don't really get it to be honest. 266 00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:50,339 Andy Polaine: I mean, there's a lot wrapped up in there. 267 00:13:50,339 --> 00:13:54,120 I think one of the things that's different, and it, the two sort of ways 268 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,199 of thinking that you're looking at is, is the shift from, you know, ownership. 269 00:13:58,199 --> 00:14:01,500 Is it, you know, you talked about empowerment, but often empowerment can 270 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:03,089 mean taking power off of other people. 271 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:03,209 Mm-hmm. 272 00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:07,709 And it's very kind of focused around that one person and, and it's a bit colonial 273 00:14:07,709 --> 00:14:10,020 actually, in the sense of, well, I'm just gonna kind of take this and do this. 274 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:13,170 I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna do that without much sort of regard 275 00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:16,230 for whoever else was already there doing that stuff in the past. 276 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:19,090 You know, and this always happens with disciplines, you know, I mean, 277 00:14:19,090 --> 00:14:20,605 design is, is just as bad at this. 278 00:14:21,435 --> 00:14:23,564 I think there's the difference between that and this idea of ownership 279 00:14:23,564 --> 00:14:27,675 versus governance and you know, in governance you have that sense 280 00:14:27,675 --> 00:14:30,704 of here's how we deal with making decisions, here's how we go about it. 281 00:14:30,704 --> 00:14:34,215 Here's who's maybe ultimately responsible for making the call on stuff. 282 00:14:34,694 --> 00:14:37,785 Or here's the forums within which we discuss these things, here's 283 00:14:37,965 --> 00:14:39,165 how we discuss those things. 284 00:14:39,615 --> 00:14:41,715 And it feels to me that's a very different kind of thing. 285 00:14:41,865 --> 00:14:45,585 And she's sort of more mature thing than just this idea of, you know, I own this. 286 00:14:45,585 --> 00:14:46,485 I dunno if you've got any. 287 00:14:47,055 --> 00:14:47,685 Thoughts on that? 288 00:14:47,805 --> 00:14:51,315 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah, I think it's like, also this is really contextual 289 00:14:51,315 --> 00:14:52,935 to the different companies, right? 290 00:14:52,965 --> 00:14:53,055 Mm-hmm. 291 00:14:53,055 --> 00:14:58,965 And I mean, how big the companies are, uh, in governance and, um, decision. 292 00:14:58,995 --> 00:15:02,475 I mean, in governance there's a lot of, uh, decision making, for example. 293 00:15:02,475 --> 00:15:02,535 Yeah. 294 00:15:02,535 --> 00:15:03,735 How do we take decision? 295 00:15:03,735 --> 00:15:06,705 And I mean, if we disagree, who will be the last. 296 00:15:07,365 --> 00:15:08,355 To make the call. 297 00:15:08,715 --> 00:15:12,075 Uh, I see this from two perspectives. 298 00:15:12,405 --> 00:15:17,385 Uh, one, it gives like, it's more of a psychological, maybe philosophical one. 299 00:15:17,625 --> 00:15:23,745 I mean, it gives you this perception that if things do not go right, 300 00:15:23,745 --> 00:15:25,185 there's gonna be one person. 301 00:15:25,485 --> 00:15:28,905 But I mean, in reality, you don't get there often. 302 00:15:29,775 --> 00:15:33,525 It's more like you prepare from the beginning to the worst case and 303 00:15:33,525 --> 00:15:36,915 maybe you optimize for the worst case when the worst case doesn't. 304 00:15:36,975 --> 00:15:40,965 I mean, it can happen, but that's not what happens normally. 305 00:15:41,535 --> 00:15:45,885 Uh, the other part I think it's also connected to ego, you know, 306 00:15:45,885 --> 00:15:49,635 is like I am a back to the CEO of the product or whatever. 307 00:15:49,935 --> 00:15:53,205 Like, oh, I am the la the one having the last word. 308 00:15:53,939 --> 00:15:56,370 I am the one like putting down the feet. 309 00:15:56,430 --> 00:15:59,189 People should come to me because I know better. 310 00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:03,089 Uh, and there is a lot of, I mean, I've seen this in 311 00:16:03,089 --> 00:16:04,680 product management, obviously. 312 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,250 I've seen it like. 313 00:16:06,255 --> 00:16:08,564 Beyond product management in companies. 314 00:16:09,045 --> 00:16:11,685 Uh, and this is a little bit of like Yeah. 315 00:16:11,685 --> 00:16:14,415 The factory kind of mindset. 316 00:16:14,535 --> 00:16:14,625 Mm-hmm. 317 00:16:14,655 --> 00:16:17,835 There is like, there are steps and there are linear, and this 318 00:16:17,835 --> 00:16:19,515 should go in a certain way. 319 00:16:19,515 --> 00:16:22,755 And I mean, there's people like kind of like approving things. 320 00:16:23,204 --> 00:16:23,295 Mm-hmm. 321 00:16:23,625 --> 00:16:26,985 Product development and digital development is not, if there's 322 00:16:26,985 --> 00:16:28,694 something I've learned, it's not linear. 323 00:16:29,055 --> 00:16:29,115 No. 324 00:16:29,204 --> 00:16:32,415 I mean, you, you don't go linear, uh, never. 325 00:16:32,635 --> 00:16:36,715 I've never seen that happening and like trying to fit that in, in 326 00:16:36,715 --> 00:16:40,705 linear process or linear governance because someone is used to that 327 00:16:40,705 --> 00:16:42,325 and has some ego attached to it. 328 00:16:42,955 --> 00:16:45,445 I think it's the wrong angle to things. 329 00:16:45,885 --> 00:16:46,185 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 330 00:16:46,185 --> 00:16:47,175 And I, I, I gave a talk. 331 00:16:47,175 --> 00:16:49,755 I know you've just come back from product at heart up in Hamburg. 332 00:16:49,785 --> 00:16:49,905 Yep. 333 00:16:50,115 --> 00:16:55,335 Uh, with our friends and, um, I gave a talk a little while ago about the 334 00:16:55,335 --> 00:16:58,005 language is about mind, your product language actually, and it's like, for 335 00:16:58,005 --> 00:17:00,765 me, the thing that drives me nuts, and it's partly 'cause of the service 336 00:17:00,765 --> 00:17:04,994 design thing around that language of, of even just calling it product, right? 337 00:17:05,025 --> 00:17:07,845 My brother is an industrial designer, or by trade, you know, 338 00:17:07,845 --> 00:17:09,315 originally by training and all those. 339 00:17:09,375 --> 00:17:14,025 People who consider themselves actual product designers, um, but also this, 340 00:17:14,115 --> 00:17:17,744 you know, this idea of, of shipping stuff or delivering, you don't, right? 341 00:17:17,744 --> 00:17:18,825 You don't, you don't ship. 342 00:17:19,065 --> 00:17:20,204 No one ships code anymore. 343 00:17:20,204 --> 00:17:21,765 No one even sent, you know, not really. 344 00:17:21,795 --> 00:17:25,305 Nobody really sends stuff out on CDs anymore, uh, and all of that stuff. 345 00:17:25,964 --> 00:17:29,115 But it's very industrial language and I think it does make you set up a 346 00:17:29,115 --> 00:17:32,655 mental model that it's a linear process and it does set up that thing that's 347 00:17:32,775 --> 00:17:36,315 like a factory and, and in classically in the factory, it's very class. 348 00:17:36,315 --> 00:17:40,005 It's classically in the factory you have the blue collar workers who, who, you 349 00:17:40,005 --> 00:17:41,805 know, supposedly unskilled labor, right? 350 00:17:41,805 --> 00:17:44,805 And just do what they're told and do, do the same repetitive task 351 00:17:44,805 --> 00:17:47,745 over and over again, you know, and the white collar labor sitting in 352 00:17:47,745 --> 00:17:50,625 the glass box, looking down at the factory, kind of in the office. 353 00:17:50,985 --> 00:17:51,765 Who are the brains? 354 00:17:52,020 --> 00:17:54,659 I think there's still that kinda hangover of that, and I think it's 355 00:17:54,659 --> 00:17:58,740 really important to become, to be very, very conscious of those dynamics and 356 00:17:58,740 --> 00:18:01,440 the sort of, I guess what I'm saying is actually the kinda history of 357 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,060 companies and organizations and how they. 358 00:18:03,629 --> 00:18:04,379 How they operate. 359 00:18:04,469 --> 00:18:08,040 And yet we've had this very, very dominant narrative of, from Silicon Valley, 360 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,679 mostly around product and about tech. 361 00:18:10,679 --> 00:18:14,100 And as you said, a lot of that stuff has come and ways of working and thinking 362 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,919 have come from startups and scaling up. 363 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,820 It's very different to be in a, an existing enterprise or you know, in a 364 00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:24,120 government service or doing those things and, and trying to sort of operate that 365 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,800 way often it doesn't really kind of work. 366 00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:26,459 Yeah. 367 00:18:26,459 --> 00:18:27,115 How big was Hemnet? 368 00:18:27,655 --> 00:18:31,524 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah, Hamnet, when I started Hamnet, uh, was 60 people. 369 00:18:31,555 --> 00:18:35,875 And then when I left a month, uh, a couple of months ago, it was like 180. 370 00:18:36,024 --> 00:18:36,325 Andy Polaine: Okay. 371 00:18:36,475 --> 00:18:36,715 Alright. 372 00:18:36,715 --> 00:18:38,875 So it's not, but it wasn't like several thousand. 373 00:18:38,935 --> 00:18:39,085 Yeah. 374 00:18:39,085 --> 00:18:39,115 Okay. 375 00:18:39,145 --> 00:18:39,295 And 376 00:18:39,295 --> 00:18:42,534 Francesca Cortesi: I also, full disclaimer, I have never worked for 377 00:18:42,534 --> 00:18:45,264 such big enterprises so far by choice. 378 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:45,480 Uh, mm-hmm. 379 00:18:46,020 --> 00:18:50,490 But I've been coaching, uh, people that work, um, with enterprises, 380 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:52,649 like thousands of people. 381 00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:55,530 Uh, and I think you are completely right. 382 00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:58,649 Uh, there is this, um, idea. 383 00:18:58,649 --> 00:19:03,120 I mean, one, one, when the company gets bigger, obviously governance gets bigger. 384 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:03,209 Hmm. 385 00:19:03,689 --> 00:19:07,679 Because that, that's like, that's just how life works. 386 00:19:07,919 --> 00:19:12,300 Uh, I mean, you cannot, you cannot go and talk with your colleagues. 387 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:15,540 I mean, you need to have an overall structure about it. 388 00:19:15,959 --> 00:19:20,969 Uh, but then it could become that slippery slope that this overall structure is like. 389 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,790 We are the thinkers and they are the makers. 390 00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:29,100 And if you put on top of that, that maybe some people working in the company have 391 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:31,709 been working that way for many years. 392 00:19:32,035 --> 00:19:36,805 And I've seen that specific ways of thinking and working, like going well. 393 00:19:37,045 --> 00:19:37,135 Mm-hmm. 394 00:19:37,225 --> 00:19:41,275 Uh, like that shift in mindset is not trivial. 395 00:19:42,235 --> 00:19:47,425 And, uh, especially also become, it depends a little bit on 396 00:19:47,425 --> 00:19:49,165 your, uh, personal background. 397 00:19:49,465 --> 00:19:54,535 I, uh, told about my background didn't come from digital at the beginning, and 398 00:19:54,535 --> 00:19:59,935 I mean, you have to adjust quite a while to understand how it is to do digital. 399 00:20:00,510 --> 00:20:05,820 How would it is to do, in my case, uh, project management in digital, but digital 400 00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:08,520 sales from analog sales is different. 401 00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:11,100 Digital marketing from analog marketing is different. 402 00:20:11,525 --> 00:20:15,210 You, you talk about your brother, you know, like developing a physical 403 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:18,930 product, it's another story than developing a digital product. 404 00:20:19,260 --> 00:20:25,410 So it's like, it's a lot about, um, ideas and preconceptions and maybe unlearning 405 00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:27,840 what's served as well, uh, that get and. 406 00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:32,669 Kind of having the humility of understanding like what is 407 00:20:32,669 --> 00:20:36,810 our role in all of this, uh, that comes into play and it's. 408 00:20:37,574 --> 00:20:39,945 It's hard for every single person. 409 00:20:39,945 --> 00:20:40,695 I mean, it's hard. 410 00:20:40,935 --> 00:20:41,145 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 411 00:20:41,445 --> 00:20:45,465 So, you know, one of the things that is different really with, I mean, I would say 412 00:20:45,465 --> 00:20:48,675 services, I would say almost all of the digital products are actually services. 413 00:20:48,975 --> 00:20:51,885 Um, 'cause they have multiple kind of touchpoint and they have an ecosystem. 414 00:20:51,885 --> 00:20:53,294 But one, the difference between those things that they're 415 00:20:53,294 --> 00:20:54,554 never finished right either. 416 00:20:55,094 --> 00:20:56,745 And I think with a, with a physical product. 417 00:20:57,439 --> 00:21:00,560 Once it really has come off the assembly line or has been created, 418 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,379 it, it, it, obviously, it ages and things, but it doesn't change. 419 00:21:03,379 --> 00:21:03,949 It, doesn't it? 420 00:21:03,955 --> 00:21:06,860 You, you buy a thing or you market a thing and sell it and then that thing 421 00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:11,060 doesn't change and there's not really an ongoing relationship unless it's to sell 422 00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:13,220 that person more or something goes wrong. 423 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,899 Um, whereas software and services, they're just constantly in flux all the time. 424 00:21:17,899 --> 00:21:20,480 There's no real sort of end point of it either. 425 00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:23,330 I think that's probably one of the bigger difficulties to get your head 426 00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:25,939 around if you, if you had that sort of industrial mindset in the past. 427 00:21:26,264 --> 00:21:26,895 Francesca Cortesi: Exactly. 428 00:21:26,895 --> 00:21:30,885 And I mean if you couple that with one of the, I mean for me at least, it's 429 00:21:30,885 --> 00:21:34,935 one of the most recurring questions is like deadlines one, is this done? 430 00:21:35,415 --> 00:21:35,445 Mm. 431 00:21:35,504 --> 00:21:38,415 You know, one is like, that is the same mindset. 432 00:21:38,445 --> 00:21:42,675 I mean, obviously you need to be able to grasp and have an idea, but that 433 00:21:42,675 --> 00:21:44,145 cannot be the first thing you do. 434 00:21:44,774 --> 00:21:44,895 Yeah. 435 00:21:44,925 --> 00:21:46,750 Because you have no idea of the. 436 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,900 You haven't test with user. 437 00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:51,390 You have no idea on the complexity of the code. 438 00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:56,250 You have no idea when you start, you know, the architecture and these kind 439 00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:59,040 of things are maybe the less visible. 440 00:21:59,565 --> 00:22:03,765 Yet the one that impact, that creates the most friction, because that's 441 00:22:03,765 --> 00:22:07,575 another mindset, you know, to build a cup or whatever you're building. 442 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:07,875 Yeah, yeah. 443 00:22:07,935 --> 00:22:11,145 Uh, it's like, okay, I know exactly what I have to do, and it's 444 00:22:11,145 --> 00:22:13,185 kind of the same thing all over. 445 00:22:13,425 --> 00:22:15,015 That's not the same with software. 446 00:22:15,255 --> 00:22:15,495 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 447 00:22:15,555 --> 00:22:16,845 Particularly in a new area. 448 00:22:17,445 --> 00:22:19,245 I does try an opinion on you. 449 00:22:19,335 --> 00:22:19,515 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah. 450 00:22:19,605 --> 00:22:22,005 Andy Polaine: And I, I'm not sure, I mean, you know, it might be unpopular, 451 00:22:22,005 --> 00:22:25,155 but, um, I think there's a, a relative amount of truth behind it. 452 00:22:25,155 --> 00:22:25,725 But, um. 453 00:22:26,324 --> 00:22:29,475 One bit of it, uh, could also be a bit offensive. 454 00:22:29,955 --> 00:22:33,344 And it's this, you know, I, I think, you know, there's been a boom and, and 455 00:22:33,344 --> 00:22:36,165 products has had this kinda massive boom in the last mission in the last 10 years. 456 00:22:36,165 --> 00:22:40,844 It became, you know, the, often the highest paid role in, in the organization. 457 00:22:41,205 --> 00:22:45,254 I mean, obviously that attracts a lot of people and my experience has been, you 458 00:22:45,254 --> 00:22:49,095 know, that certainly what, a bit like in the.com boom, actually in the sort 459 00:22:49,095 --> 00:22:52,514 of late nineties, early two thousands, you end up getting quite a lot of sort 460 00:22:52,514 --> 00:22:56,175 of low grade people coming in, certainly on the sort of bottom third or even half 461 00:22:56,175 --> 00:22:58,245 of a discipline, uh, because of that. 462 00:22:58,274 --> 00:23:02,085 'cause it's, you know, it's a gold rush and that starts to degrade the practice. 463 00:23:02,235 --> 00:23:02,475 Right. 464 00:23:02,475 --> 00:23:05,024 And you were sort of talking about this, it's a, it's a new practice, so 465 00:23:05,024 --> 00:23:08,415 there's not that much, you know, there is obviously, you know, leading lights out 466 00:23:08,415 --> 00:23:09,735 there talking about how to do it well. 467 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,590 And there's obviously a lot of people doing it well, but there's 468 00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:14,600 also a whole kind, a bunch of people just going, well, you know, I, 469 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,220 nothing, I could just Reba myself. 470 00:23:16,610 --> 00:23:21,350 One of the things about this, and this may be the offensive thing, is if you know, 471 00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:24,139 you make a thing, so if you're a coder and you're kind of, and you're writing 472 00:23:24,139 --> 00:23:29,060 code or if you are a, a designer and you are, you're making design artifacts. 473 00:23:29,774 --> 00:23:32,925 You can kind of tell whether someone, there's, there's a sort of an artifact 474 00:23:32,925 --> 00:23:35,715 there that is the signal of whether this person's any good or not. 475 00:23:35,715 --> 00:23:35,804 Mm-hmm. 476 00:23:36,044 --> 00:23:37,995 You've got a thing to look at that you can say, well, this, 477 00:23:37,995 --> 00:23:39,435 this, this design's awful. 478 00:23:39,435 --> 00:23:42,254 You know, you can point to the typography and the hierarchy or 479 00:23:42,254 --> 00:23:44,925 whatever, and the code could be sort of messy and hacky and so forth. 480 00:23:45,465 --> 00:23:47,985 I wonder whether with product management, whether there's a thing 481 00:23:47,985 --> 00:23:49,905 there where, because you don't have that. 482 00:23:50,554 --> 00:23:54,185 Whether it's sort of easy for that bottom third that I was talking about 483 00:23:54,185 --> 00:23:58,985 to sort of get away with it and could have not be shown up as not being very 484 00:23:58,985 --> 00:24:02,645 good, or whether that is offensive and unfair to product management. 485 00:24:02,959 --> 00:24:05,735 Francesca Cortesi: I think, uh, I mean, first I love the provocative 486 00:24:05,735 --> 00:24:08,645 question and uh, I agree. 487 00:24:08,764 --> 00:24:10,745 Uh, there is a lot of. 488 00:24:12,195 --> 00:24:14,355 Mediocracy, mediocrity. 489 00:24:14,415 --> 00:24:14,835 What you say? 490 00:24:15,255 --> 00:24:15,915 Mediocrity. 491 00:24:16,005 --> 00:24:16,125 Yeah. 492 00:24:16,215 --> 00:24:19,065 Uh, in, um, I've seen a lot. 493 00:24:19,095 --> 00:24:25,125 I mean, I'm famous for taking forever to recruit, uh, because I've seen, I mean, 494 00:24:25,125 --> 00:24:27,435 I really have to go through many people. 495 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,470 To understand, okay, what are do they actually do? 496 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:34,820 This is partially because the role of product is different, different companies. 497 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:39,200 So maybe what I might need is not what you're used to despite you 498 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,970 have that, uh, that title, but there's also a lot of rebranding. 499 00:24:44,030 --> 00:24:44,480 Exactly. 500 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,650 As you were, were saying. 501 00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:51,380 Uh, I would say that there is a way of like seeing, uh, if you are a good 502 00:24:51,380 --> 00:24:55,670 product manager and that way is that the product that you help shipping. 503 00:24:56,165 --> 00:25:01,895 Uh, create, uh, business impact, uh, because it's not only, I mean, unless 504 00:25:01,895 --> 00:25:07,595 you are a charity or an organization that doesn't have to make money, uh, then your 505 00:25:07,595 --> 00:25:09,905 job is actually to create business impact. 506 00:25:10,175 --> 00:25:13,655 Are you able to solve a problem and are, uh, your clients or 507 00:25:13,655 --> 00:25:15,605 users, uh, willing to pay for it? 508 00:25:16,085 --> 00:25:21,335 Uh, and do you impact the top line or bottom line, or 509 00:25:21,335 --> 00:25:23,225 do you make it some kind of. 510 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:30,330 You know, difference, uh, in the company ecosystem, uh, that is the, 511 00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:32,190 the way of measuring a product manager. 512 00:25:32,580 --> 00:25:37,890 Uh, and the problem, uh, many times, uh, is that if we think about those product 513 00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:43,590 manager that are there again to, you know, okay, my job is to, uh, make a 514 00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:48,930 backlog, one to 10, and then we ship this, and then when it's shipped, it's done. 515 00:25:49,290 --> 00:25:50,445 Then you obviously can hide. 516 00:25:51,405 --> 00:25:54,675 I mean, if you come back to me handy and say, okay, but this Francesca, 517 00:25:54,675 --> 00:25:59,505 this thing, I mean we put uh, x many engineerings hours and we spend 518 00:25:59,505 --> 00:26:01,665 this amount of time and it's out. 519 00:26:01,785 --> 00:26:05,535 But I mean, we're not making any penny if something we're losing 520 00:26:05,565 --> 00:26:09,405 because we invest all that money and we are not seeing any result. 521 00:26:09,405 --> 00:26:13,185 And I say, yeah, well my job was to ship it and I shipped it. 522 00:26:14,265 --> 00:26:17,265 You know, you are bad because you pick the wrong idea. 523 00:26:17,505 --> 00:26:19,575 Then I mean, there is basically your hide. 524 00:26:20,385 --> 00:26:24,975 Uh, but I mean, if you, if you do real product management, according 525 00:26:24,975 --> 00:26:30,014 to me, uh, you have to take responsibility for the impact you need. 526 00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:34,065 You, you really have to, that's your way of like measuring the same 527 00:26:34,065 --> 00:26:38,415 way that, you know, uh, a designer will be measured like, oh, how 528 00:26:38,415 --> 00:26:40,605 is this, uh, usable in our app? 529 00:26:40,815 --> 00:26:45,975 Or like, uh, engineer will be measured, or is this making, you know, our code? 530 00:26:46,555 --> 00:26:50,035 Fasters lower is like connecting with the architecture and et 531 00:26:50,035 --> 00:26:52,675 cetera in all needs to go together. 532 00:26:53,005 --> 00:26:57,865 Uh, but definitely there's way, especially in as company grow. 533 00:26:58,530 --> 00:27:02,550 And as company maybe see the role of product in different ways. 534 00:27:02,550 --> 00:27:04,110 There's definitely a way of hiding. 535 00:27:04,260 --> 00:27:04,500 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 536 00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:06,600 I wonder if there's an inherent tension there. 537 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,120 Actually, going back to what we were talking about at the beginning, where 538 00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:13,140 if you know, if the thing that you are measured on, the criteria by which you 539 00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:16,770 say you know you are a good product leader and versus a not very good 540 00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:18,660 one is the impact on the business. 541 00:27:19,050 --> 00:27:22,620 And yet we're also saying, but it's a collaborative, you know, process, right? 542 00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:24,060 Where everyone is involved in that. 543 00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:24,600 So actually. 544 00:27:25,170 --> 00:27:28,800 You know, it's everyone who has been responsible for the impact on the 545 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,030 business for sure, and the tension there being as a product leader in order for 546 00:27:33,030 --> 00:27:35,760 me to kind of prove my case for myself. 547 00:27:36,465 --> 00:27:39,885 I have to kind of basically state the claim that it was me who had 548 00:27:39,885 --> 00:27:42,345 that impact on the business and not the kind of collaborative group. 549 00:27:42,345 --> 00:27:45,345 And I wonder if that is part of that tension that we're talking about, where 550 00:27:45,345 --> 00:27:48,945 you're talking about sort of the ego thing where the sort of systemically it's 551 00:27:48,945 --> 00:27:51,135 kinda set up for that dynamic to happen. 552 00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:55,545 Francesca Cortesi: I think it's like a lot of this boils down to mindset. 553 00:27:56,235 --> 00:27:56,385 Mm-hmm. 554 00:27:56,535 --> 00:28:01,155 I mean, when you realize, and I came to that realization myself, I will not 555 00:28:01,155 --> 00:28:03,735 be able to have that impact by myself. 556 00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:08,429 So I cannot claim that I made the impact by myself because if I, 557 00:28:08,790 --> 00:28:12,090 yes, there is like two scenarios, or two parallel word, right? 558 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,580 One word where I do it by myself. 559 00:28:14,580 --> 00:28:18,570 So I go and talk to sales, and talk to marketing, and talk to finance and 560 00:28:18,570 --> 00:28:23,070 shape an idea and then task someone to talk to users in the best of case. 561 00:28:23,399 --> 00:28:26,040 And then they come back with some result, and then I make a 562 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,510 choice, and then we build it. 563 00:28:27,870 --> 00:28:32,129 Right then I take a lot of burden on my shoulders. 564 00:28:32,370 --> 00:28:36,900 Mm. Because I feel that I have to do it, and I kind of like take in 565 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:39,690 people on and off during this process. 566 00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:44,400 So they feel that they pitch in, but they never have enough skin in the game. 567 00:28:44,879 --> 00:28:49,020 Because again, they can say, oh, I deliver those user user interview, or I deliver 568 00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:51,510 this design, I deliver this, uh, idea. 569 00:28:51,870 --> 00:28:52,200 But. 570 00:28:52,815 --> 00:28:54,825 This doesn't make a product successful. 571 00:28:54,975 --> 00:28:55,185 Yeah. 572 00:28:55,245 --> 00:28:59,925 Uh, and at the end of the day, that also happens like in different phases. 573 00:28:59,925 --> 00:29:03,285 Like in my realization, first I was too close, you know? 574 00:29:03,285 --> 00:29:08,235 First it was myself, then I was close to my team, and that is like 575 00:29:08,235 --> 00:29:13,095 cutting off, almost like taking in only on demand, uh, distribution. 576 00:29:13,455 --> 00:29:14,264 And marketing. 577 00:29:14,355 --> 00:29:16,965 Yeah, and I mean that didn't work either because we had this 578 00:29:16,965 --> 00:29:18,705 product, we were super proud. 579 00:29:18,705 --> 00:29:22,725 We put like hours and sweat and tears and blood and everything. 580 00:29:22,725 --> 00:29:25,695 We want to make it work, but no attachment from sales. 581 00:29:26,445 --> 00:29:27,795 How did you think that went? 582 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:29,145 Yeah, yeah. 583 00:29:29,235 --> 00:29:29,715 Right. 584 00:29:29,715 --> 00:29:33,105 So I mean, it is like you cannot, your role. 585 00:29:33,105 --> 00:29:36,975 I always say, I mean, I don't like the CEO of the product kind of thing. 586 00:29:37,274 --> 00:29:40,514 I like to think that my role is facilitating. 587 00:29:40,845 --> 00:29:44,745 And then my role facilitating in product can be on different levels. 588 00:29:45,165 --> 00:29:49,515 It can be like, if you are A CPO, then your role is like to align everyone 589 00:29:49,515 --> 00:29:54,345 on a product strategy, meaning making this really, really hard thing of 590 00:29:54,345 --> 00:29:57,045 choosing one bet instead of the other. 591 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,750 Or like one thing is instead of the other, because you're always constantly 592 00:30:00,750 --> 00:30:02,760 gonna go back and be opportunistic. 593 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:03,149 Mm-hmm. 594 00:30:03,389 --> 00:30:06,810 How do you balance long-term with like more opportunistic thing? 595 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:11,610 So that's your job and your job like as you go down until the PM is 596 00:30:11,610 --> 00:30:15,899 like, make sure that when you have a problem space to work, you bring 597 00:30:15,899 --> 00:30:20,370 in everybody and it's everybody that succeeds or everybody that fails. 598 00:30:21,179 --> 00:30:23,820 And obviously everyone has a different. 599 00:30:24,345 --> 00:30:29,025 Role depending on the, on the specific moment in time when you shape the product. 600 00:30:29,385 --> 00:30:34,215 But I mean, you cannot claim that you're by yourself and you can show the impact 601 00:30:34,395 --> 00:30:38,715 and that impact would've not been creating without you being good at facilitating. 602 00:30:38,955 --> 00:30:41,625 So in that way, you really need, you see the difference. 603 00:30:41,625 --> 00:30:45,615 If you've been in those teams, you really see the difference of like the product 604 00:30:45,615 --> 00:30:48,075 person can make in that perspective. 605 00:30:48,405 --> 00:30:49,425 But I mean, you're not. 606 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:51,530 You cannot do it by yourself. 607 00:30:51,860 --> 00:30:54,080 And again, it's like a lot of mindset. 608 00:30:54,410 --> 00:30:58,040 If you think like, oh, my worth is man, I value and the value is 609 00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,415 created by me, then you are like. 610 00:31:00,510 --> 00:31:01,350 Slippery slope. 611 00:31:01,649 --> 00:31:01,950 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 612 00:31:02,340 --> 00:31:04,409 It's a very difficult thing, isn't it, to know when you hire 613 00:31:04,409 --> 00:31:07,770 someones, how collaborative they have been in their past place. 614 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,590 'cause you know, you can speak to people, but it depends on the 615 00:31:10,590 --> 00:31:11,760 reasons why someone has left. 616 00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:15,240 Uh, it's also equally hard and the other way around when you are interviewing 617 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,350 or when you, you know, you're being the, the candidate and you want to 618 00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:21,120 know how collaborative is this culture. 619 00:31:21,149 --> 00:31:22,080 'cause it's very difficult. 620 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,899 You, you often don't know that until you really get there. 621 00:31:24,899 --> 00:31:26,490 I think it's one of the kind of toughest things. 622 00:31:26,490 --> 00:31:27,389 It's kind of very hidden. 623 00:31:28,290 --> 00:31:30,270 So what you just told me actually was sort of the answer to the 624 00:31:30,270 --> 00:31:31,410 next question that was gonna ask. 625 00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:33,870 'cause you said before, well that's a product management or product leadership, 626 00:31:33,870 --> 00:31:36,570 according to me, and you just sort of gave your, your outline of it. 627 00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:41,280 You are just starting or you've started your own advisory consultancy. 628 00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:45,210 So what are you aiming to help clients with and what experience 629 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:47,070 will be drawing upon to help them? 630 00:31:47,504 --> 00:31:47,925 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah. 631 00:31:47,985 --> 00:31:53,535 Uh, that's like my, um, exciting thing that I'm doing, 632 00:31:53,595 --> 00:31:55,095 uh, that I'm doing this year. 633 00:31:55,455 --> 00:32:01,185 Uh, and you probably, uh, realize that I'm really passionate about, uh, collaboration 634 00:32:01,185 --> 00:32:06,135 and how we can do, and how we can work together to, uh, make an impact. 635 00:32:06,465 --> 00:32:11,085 And I've been noticing that product in this lately, as you were describing, 636 00:32:11,085 --> 00:32:16,035 became really an hot discipline, but also became a little bit, um. 637 00:32:17,010 --> 00:32:18,510 Empty in the inside. 638 00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:22,260 Uh, I have like, which creates a lot of frustration. 639 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,000 Uh, you have like business people who think that, uh, product people only think 640 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,250 about users and not how we make money. 641 00:32:29,610 --> 00:32:33,240 And then you have like, uh, engineers and designer who thinks that 642 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,200 product only, you know, are, uh, want to decide a bunch of things. 643 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,500 So you're like, and you are like those individuals that in 644 00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:42,360 product that try to do their best. 645 00:32:42,930 --> 00:32:43,950 Uh, and they're like. 646 00:32:44,605 --> 00:32:47,365 Many times burned out and in between and don't really know 647 00:32:47,365 --> 00:32:48,535 where to bang their head. 648 00:32:48,865 --> 00:32:54,325 Uh, so I, um, with my consultancy, I really want to go in and help, 649 00:32:54,715 --> 00:33:00,925 uh, and try to, uh, to lead, uh, or help these teams and individual, uh, 650 00:33:00,955 --> 00:33:05,514 to, uh, create better product, but also feel more fulfilled themselves. 651 00:33:05,995 --> 00:33:08,695 I specialized in, uh, scale-ups. 652 00:33:09,090 --> 00:33:11,100 Uh, so that's what I'm, uh, I'm good at. 653 00:33:11,130 --> 00:33:12,930 That's where my experience comes from. 654 00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:17,400 So post-market fit, when there is an all new set of things, that's when 655 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,650 collaboration becomes important. 656 00:33:19,650 --> 00:33:24,390 That's when like how we take decisions and when distribution that all 657 00:33:24,390 --> 00:33:27,330 users and business comes together. 658 00:33:27,540 --> 00:33:28,575 Uh, that's that. 659 00:33:28,995 --> 00:33:33,705 My, uh, space where, where I'm really good at and that's what I'm wanna, uh, 660 00:33:33,735 --> 00:33:38,415 help companies either like coming in, uh, fractionally, uh, and helping them 661 00:33:38,415 --> 00:33:40,455 for period, or for some days, a weeks. 662 00:33:40,815 --> 00:33:44,775 Or, uh, another thing that I'm really passionate is we always 663 00:33:44,775 --> 00:33:46,665 say that is lonely at the top. 664 00:33:46,670 --> 00:33:47,535 Which it is. 665 00:33:47,540 --> 00:33:48,760 Yeah, it is. 666 00:33:48,885 --> 00:33:50,265 I mean, let's be honest. 667 00:33:50,295 --> 00:33:54,855 But I also think in my years as at the top myself, I was like, 668 00:33:55,275 --> 00:33:56,805 does it have to be that way? 669 00:33:57,254 --> 00:34:00,865 Uh, I think we can, uh, kind of like it. 670 00:34:02,310 --> 00:34:08,400 Brush, uh, ourselves, like a bit of ego out, uh, our CPOs and think we 671 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,719 don't have to have it all figured out and we can use some people to bounce 672 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,759 ideas and people who have been there. 673 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,199 So that's my other thing, like coaching, uh, product leaders and product 674 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:24,000 teams, uh, to accelerate their time to value and really make it normal. 675 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,710 You don't have to have it all figured out. 676 00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:27,480 Nobody has. 677 00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:31,860 Uh, and if you put that expectation on yourself, you're not gonna end well. 678 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,510 I was really close myself, like to put it all together, it doesn't work. 679 00:34:36,690 --> 00:34:39,510 Andy Polaine: Yeah, there's a bit of a culture I noticed, you know, also at 680 00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:42,840 conference and stuff, a scene of amongst kind of product leadership of, you know, 681 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,170 busyness of kind of crushing it and smashing it and we do everything, you 682 00:34:46,170 --> 00:34:47,130 know, and all of that sort of stuff. 683 00:34:47,130 --> 00:34:49,950 There's a sort of pride in that, but I can imagine there's quite 684 00:34:49,950 --> 00:34:51,270 a lot of burnout in that too. 685 00:34:51,275 --> 00:34:51,525 Francesca Cortesi: Guilty. 686 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,800 Like, you know what you are by design at the, especially like in 687 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,560 this scale up and growth phases. 688 00:35:01,620 --> 00:35:01,710 Mm-hmm. 689 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:03,595 By design, like really. 690 00:35:04,694 --> 00:35:09,464 At the interception of so many things, uh, you have like strategy that is 691 00:35:09,464 --> 00:35:13,845 like five years, and then you have at some point I had like investors 692 00:35:13,845 --> 00:35:18,194 or like quarterly report, and then you have teams, and the teams grows. 693 00:35:18,194 --> 00:35:23,564 Then you need to understand what it is, you know, that is the fire that like a PM 694 00:35:23,564 --> 00:35:25,605 tells you in a one-on-one or what is the. 695 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:30,070 Structural problem that you have to address, and then you have your 696 00:35:30,070 --> 00:35:35,200 own ego, and then you have like the expectation that others or especially 697 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,160 yourself put on you recipe for disaster. 698 00:35:39,975 --> 00:35:42,944 Andy Polaine: Yeah, I've often, uh, said with design, I think there 699 00:35:42,944 --> 00:35:47,295 is a, a mix of, uh, humility and ego that you have to have, right? 700 00:35:47,295 --> 00:35:50,955 You have to have enough ego to be someone who says, well, I think things 701 00:35:50,955 --> 00:35:53,805 could be like this, and I'm gonna make a thing and put it in the world, and, 702 00:35:53,865 --> 00:35:57,075 you know, fight for those things and support them and say, you know, this 703 00:35:57,075 --> 00:35:58,125 should be the thing we should do. 704 00:35:58,605 --> 00:36:01,484 At the same time, obviously having the humility to work with other 705 00:36:01,484 --> 00:36:05,174 people and, and, and be wrong, you know, and I don't think you ever kind 706 00:36:05,174 --> 00:36:06,464 of perfectly get the balance right. 707 00:36:06,464 --> 00:36:09,290 It's that kind of balancing on a. On a chair or something where 708 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,440 you're always kind of wiggling around a little bit and go from one 709 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,380 side to the other and sometimes, you know, sometimes you fall off. 710 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:15,770 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah. 711 00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:20,180 And also I think it's like we all are, uh, personally inclined 712 00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:21,590 on one side or the other. 713 00:36:21,980 --> 00:36:22,070 Mm-hmm. 714 00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:27,140 Uh, but what can be, I think, uh, really important is to have someone to. 715 00:36:27,540 --> 00:36:31,770 You know, to bounce ideas with that can show you like that, then call you 716 00:36:31,890 --> 00:36:35,190 on that side, oh, now you're tipping too much on this side, but now you're 717 00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:36,720 tipping too much on the other side. 718 00:36:37,020 --> 00:36:38,310 Have you considered this? 719 00:36:38,610 --> 00:36:42,480 Uh, and it's a all other thing is, is a person that I've been in that seat 720 00:36:42,930 --> 00:36:46,110 because it can kind of understand what you're, uh, going through. 721 00:36:46,380 --> 00:36:46,590 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 722 00:36:46,595 --> 00:36:48,300 But my coaching's really similar as well. 723 00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:51,420 You know, I have the, the loneliness thing is a really real thing. 724 00:36:51,420 --> 00:36:52,800 I mean, it's, it's. 725 00:36:53,265 --> 00:36:56,504 I dunno if it's as, you know, the same, you know, one of the things that happens 726 00:36:56,504 --> 00:36:59,565 when designers become into leadership role is all their peers or other people who 727 00:36:59,745 --> 00:37:03,375 have got much more of a shared business background than they have, um, often, I 728 00:37:03,375 --> 00:37:07,395 dunno if this is true, maybe for product people too, but it's definitely, um, 729 00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:10,634 loneliness, but it's also a bit of a self-imposed loneliness because people. 730 00:37:11,274 --> 00:37:14,545 You know, for all obvious reasons, but the culture of work isn't usually a 731 00:37:14,545 --> 00:37:17,214 place where you can go, sorry, I don't really understand what we're doing here. 732 00:37:17,214 --> 00:37:19,495 Or, I'm, I'm really feeling a bit lost at the moment. 733 00:37:19,495 --> 00:37:21,895 'cause you're supposed to be at the top and, and know all the answers. 734 00:37:22,464 --> 00:37:25,615 But I mean, all of those people are often like that. 735 00:37:25,615 --> 00:37:27,475 I think it's really, uh, important then. 736 00:37:28,185 --> 00:37:30,465 To have that space where you can kind of give people that. 737 00:37:30,705 --> 00:37:33,555 And then the other thing is, you know, I think it's, it's important 738 00:37:33,555 --> 00:37:36,315 to create that safe space, but also to be slightly annoying, right? 739 00:37:36,315 --> 00:37:38,775 And to kind of ask people, the, the pointy questions go well, 740 00:37:38,775 --> 00:37:39,765 you know, who cares about that? 741 00:37:39,855 --> 00:37:45,165 And, and for them to have the moment of really thinking that through, uh, in a 742 00:37:45,165 --> 00:37:49,725 way that, you know, they maybe don't give time for in their, in their day daily 743 00:37:49,725 --> 00:37:52,095 work, you know, where they're supposed to all have the answers off the cuff. 744 00:37:52,095 --> 00:37:54,825 And, and often I think, wow, some really big decisions just got made. 745 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,240 It's just completely sort of in the spur of the moment then, and everyone 746 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:01,740 just nodded and kind of went on. 747 00:38:01,770 --> 00:38:05,100 But, uh, rather than taking the time to kind of work them through 748 00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:06,359 and think, think them through. 749 00:38:06,689 --> 00:38:09,330 Francesca Cortesi: But that happens quite a lot because when 750 00:38:09,330 --> 00:38:10,589 you're in the midst of things 751 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:10,950 Andy Polaine: Yeah, 752 00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:14,370 Francesca Cortesi: at certain point people, I mean, you're so, there are 753 00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:17,250 so many things and you work towards something that, I mean, you get 754 00:38:17,250 --> 00:38:19,710 frustrated and you just want to move on. 755 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,279 And some things are exactly as you said, decide quite quickly. 756 00:38:23,685 --> 00:38:27,825 Uh, yeah, like, you know, while other, it takes forever, but I mean, 757 00:38:27,825 --> 00:38:32,774 the impact of the two is many time unbalanced, and that's when it requires 758 00:38:32,774 --> 00:38:37,995 someone, I mean, external or like with the fresh eyes on the question. 759 00:38:38,294 --> 00:38:40,605 Uh, that can be really beneficial. 760 00:38:40,605 --> 00:38:42,345 I mean, I'm guilty of that myself. 761 00:38:42,345 --> 00:38:48,105 I, we spend so much time, like upstream sometimes, uh, and made like 762 00:38:48,105 --> 00:38:52,665 a super quick decision downstream that, I mean, the two things. 763 00:38:53,130 --> 00:38:56,880 Just looking at it in a more, uh, detached way. 764 00:38:57,090 --> 00:38:58,890 You, I would've done completely the opposite. 765 00:38:59,160 --> 00:38:59,370 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 766 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:01,860 So the person they can do that with is you? 767 00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:02,370 Francesca Cortesi: Yeah. 768 00:39:02,430 --> 00:39:08,460 Or you, or depending, like, uh, yeah, but I think it's like the idea of, uh, yeah. 769 00:39:08,460 --> 00:39:13,259 If you like, are looking for how can we, uh, in our team elevate. 770 00:39:13,825 --> 00:39:18,775 Generally like our ways of working, uh, I could be a person to talk with, or 771 00:39:18,775 --> 00:39:23,215 even if you're looking for a product bouncing board as I call it, uh, that 772 00:39:23,215 --> 00:39:25,795 could be also a product to talk to. 773 00:39:26,815 --> 00:39:29,095 Andy Polaine: Yeah, and I think, you know, with the scale up thing, there are kind 774 00:39:29,095 --> 00:39:30,510 of inflection points aren't there as, as. 775 00:39:30,980 --> 00:39:33,980 You get to certain sizes and things change and the the 776 00:39:33,980 --> 00:39:35,660 social dynamic changes as well. 777 00:39:35,660 --> 00:39:40,010 Obviously, um, you start to, at some point you kind think you knew, so I found you 778 00:39:40,010 --> 00:39:44,030 get to around 80 people and you start not to know everyone in the company mm-hmm. 779 00:39:44,270 --> 00:39:46,010 Anymore and that kind of changes everything again. 780 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:47,810 'cause you're just some annoying stakeholder on the 781 00:39:47,810 --> 00:39:48,980 other end of an email rather. 782 00:39:48,980 --> 00:39:52,880 Or Slack rather than, you know, a person I know and all of those things. 783 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,210 Exactly. 784 00:39:53,210 --> 00:39:53,420 Yeah. 785 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,410 And that's what I 786 00:39:54,590 --> 00:39:58,340 Francesca Cortesi: find, find, uh, fascinating because scaling is like, 787 00:39:58,340 --> 00:40:00,500 as product doesn't have an end. 788 00:40:00,885 --> 00:40:01,995 It doesn't have a ceiling. 789 00:40:02,025 --> 00:40:05,055 It's just that you have to handle like all the different 790 00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:06,420 scale phases in different ways. 791 00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:08,430 Andy Polaine: I wish it did though. 792 00:40:08,430 --> 00:40:12,930 I, I think the, the conversation about how big is big enough doesn't happen enough 793 00:40:12,930 --> 00:40:16,140 actually, you know, particularly in the kind of state of the planet today as well. 794 00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:16,230 Yes. 795 00:40:16,590 --> 00:40:20,460 Of, you know, what size are, are we comfortable with getting to rather than 796 00:40:20,460 --> 00:40:22,740 just this sort of endless growth thing. 797 00:40:23,490 --> 00:40:24,720 Uh, we're coming up to time. 798 00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:28,140 The show is named after this Ray Charles Eames film called Powers of 799 00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:31,170 10, and it's all about the relative size of things in the universe. 800 00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:32,040 People should go and Google it. 801 00:40:32,210 --> 00:40:33,950 It's, uh, it's very interesting. 802 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,130 And so I have one small question at the end, which is called one 803 00:40:37,130 --> 00:40:40,549 small thing, which is what, one small thing is either overlooked or 804 00:40:40,549 --> 00:40:44,299 could be redesigned that would have an outsized effect on the world. 805 00:40:44,420 --> 00:40:45,620 Francesca Cortesi: You call it small thing. 806 00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:49,009 But I mean, I think this is an extremely difficult question. 807 00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:53,180 Uh, I had to think really hard about it. 808 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:57,470 Uh, and that's one thing that, uh, two things actually that pop to my head. 809 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,340 Uh, but the one I will, uh, bring up is, uh, I think we could 810 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,860 redesign the always on culture. 811 00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:05,850 Mm-hmm. 812 00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:09,870 Uh, and I mean, it might be a little bit, uh, philosophical, but I mean there 813 00:41:09,870 --> 00:41:16,170 is this, uh, if we like scope it to the workspace, uh, there's so much email, 814 00:41:16,290 --> 00:41:21,660 slack and now with ai, like a lot of, like bombarding and uh, a lot of things 815 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,640 which create a lot of pressure and expectation of like being always like. 816 00:41:27,225 --> 00:41:31,515 On top of things, especially if you work with people that are all over the globe 817 00:41:31,815 --> 00:41:33,375 that, I mean, you're, you're never done. 818 00:41:33,645 --> 00:41:37,845 And that's not healthy because that's not where you create your head space 819 00:41:37,845 --> 00:41:39,975 and where you can do your best work. 820 00:41:40,424 --> 00:41:44,924 So one thing that, I mean, just generally speaking, I mean just like 821 00:41:44,924 --> 00:41:50,745 fantasizing, uh, it could be good for example, uh, to what, what will happen 822 00:41:50,775 --> 00:41:54,075 if in Slack we are defaulted by offline. 823 00:41:54,510 --> 00:41:58,920 Instead of having to opt in as like, I agree, you know, offline or like 824 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,660 not available, whatever that is. 825 00:42:01,110 --> 00:42:04,830 Uh, or like another thing could be, do notification need 826 00:42:04,830 --> 00:42:07,110 to be in like instantaneous? 827 00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:11,100 What if like, I could decide, okay, now it's my focus time. 828 00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:12,600 I get no notifications. 829 00:42:12,630 --> 00:42:16,770 Like I don't have to, what I do is like I close down everything, but I still 830 00:42:16,770 --> 00:42:18,900 have this idea things are happening. 831 00:42:19,230 --> 00:42:19,470 Right. 832 00:42:19,470 --> 00:42:19,560 It's 833 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:20,610 Andy Polaine: piling up in the background. 834 00:42:20,610 --> 00:42:21,300 Yeah, but I mean, 835 00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:23,305 Francesca Cortesi: what if like there will come in batches. 836 00:42:24,285 --> 00:42:25,065 For example. 837 00:42:25,154 --> 00:42:29,865 I mean, I think it, I mean having those kind of, um, it's a new approach. 838 00:42:29,955 --> 00:42:33,765 Uh, if I stretch it, I mean I could even have it with products 839 00:42:34,185 --> 00:42:37,725 like, you know this, why do we have to ping people all the time? 840 00:42:38,235 --> 00:42:42,585 Wouldn't be like nice if they would come to our product because it's 841 00:42:42,915 --> 00:42:46,125 so valuable for them that we don't have to nudge them all the time. 842 00:42:46,185 --> 00:42:46,365 Mm-hmm. 843 00:42:46,365 --> 00:42:46,665 Yeah, exactly. 844 00:42:46,665 --> 00:42:51,105 But I mean this idea of like rethinking the always on will be my, 845 00:42:51,735 --> 00:42:52,095 Andy Polaine: yeah. 846 00:42:53,250 --> 00:42:54,990 I, it's funny 'cause there's also an old thing thing. 847 00:42:55,020 --> 00:42:59,280 Uh, you know, I I, when people used to get actual mail post, you know, 848 00:42:59,460 --> 00:43:02,280 people would often have their sort of correspondence tray and they would kind 849 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,370 of batch it and then they would kind of go, okay, I, I'd sit down and one of the 850 00:43:05,370 --> 00:43:09,180 things was I knew someone who said, I, I asked, I answered my correspondence. 851 00:43:09,180 --> 00:43:11,520 She said, um, she was my babysitter as a kid. 852 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:12,420 She was already quite old. 853 00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:15,810 Then I answer my correspondence strictly, you know, chronologically, 854 00:43:15,810 --> 00:43:16,650 you know, whoever mm-hmm. 855 00:43:16,650 --> 00:43:17,430 Comes, comes in. 856 00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:19,200 I answer that one next and go through that way. 857 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,430 And she would sort of batch it out. 858 00:43:20,865 --> 00:43:21,825 And people used to do that. 859 00:43:21,825 --> 00:43:24,945 And I think, you know, in the early days of email, certainly in in Europe 860 00:43:24,945 --> 00:43:27,165 and in America, it's slightly different 'cause of the way phone calls work. 861 00:43:27,165 --> 00:43:29,835 But in Europe where you were paying always for the amount of 862 00:43:29,835 --> 00:43:31,000 time you were, you were online. 863 00:43:31,770 --> 00:43:35,730 You used to write your emails, go online, send them all, and then go 864 00:43:35,730 --> 00:43:37,950 offline again in the days of dial up. 865 00:43:38,279 --> 00:43:41,129 And you didn't have that, uh, always on culture either. 866 00:43:41,370 --> 00:43:44,220 And I know there's a few email kind of programs that started to do that. 867 00:43:44,220 --> 00:43:46,290 Again, it's funny to see that stuff come 868 00:43:46,290 --> 00:43:46,470 Francesca Cortesi: back around. 869 00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:46,529 Yeah. 870 00:43:46,529 --> 00:43:47,220 In circle. 871 00:43:47,220 --> 00:43:51,299 And I think it's like this always on all, I mean obviously like the problem 872 00:43:51,299 --> 00:43:54,390 for mental health, but it also like. 873 00:43:56,115 --> 00:44:00,705 We're not putting the time on the most important things because there's so much 874 00:44:00,705 --> 00:44:05,955 to be handled all the time that, again, we're not making the, the right impact. 875 00:44:06,525 --> 00:44:06,645 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 876 00:44:06,645 --> 00:44:07,275 So can we, 877 00:44:07,275 --> 00:44:08,835 Francesca Cortesi: I mean, can we do something about it? 878 00:44:09,495 --> 00:44:09,645 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 879 00:44:09,645 --> 00:44:10,875 There's not much differentiation. 880 00:44:10,875 --> 00:44:14,535 Sometimes I, I call that sort of busy work thing, the junk food of work, right? 881 00:44:14,535 --> 00:44:17,805 Where it's like you're sort of snacking on all this stuff, but it's not. 882 00:44:18,450 --> 00:44:19,799 None of it's really nutritious. 883 00:44:19,859 --> 00:44:20,040 Yeah. 884 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,859 You know, it's not like a you, we need this junk food, you know, 885 00:44:22,859 --> 00:44:25,859 the, the slow food, you know, the Italian slow food movement. 886 00:44:25,859 --> 00:44:26,339 Francesca Cortesi: Exactly. 887 00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:27,779 Andy Polaine: Uh, with work. 888 00:44:28,589 --> 00:44:30,390 Um, where can people find you online? 889 00:44:30,779 --> 00:44:32,370 Francesca Cortesi: Uh, they can find me on LinkedIn. 890 00:44:32,459 --> 00:44:35,700 That will be like the easiest, uh, way of finding me. 891 00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:36,839 It's Francesca Cortes. 892 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:41,190 Or my website, uh, which is my name, francesca cortes.com. 893 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:41,850 Andy Polaine: Wonderful. 894 00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:45,000 You say your name so much better than I just mangled it at the beginning. 895 00:44:45,870 --> 00:44:48,150 Francesca, thank you so much for being on Power of 10. 896 00:44:48,450 --> 00:44:49,590 Francesca Cortesi: Thank you, Andy, for having me. 897 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,990 Andy Polaine: You've been watching and listening to Power of 10. 898 00:44:51,990 --> 00:44:55,110 You can find more about the show on pela.com where you can also check out 899 00:44:55,110 --> 00:44:58,830 my leadership coaching practice online courses, as well as sign up for my 900 00:44:58,860 --> 00:45:02,610 very irregular newsletter, Doctor's Note, if you've got any thoughts, put 901 00:45:02,610 --> 00:45:03,990 them in the comments or get in touch. 902 00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:07,920 You'll find me as andypolaine on Blueskey, you'll find me 903 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,340 on LinkedIn and on my website. 904 00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:11,170 I'm no longer on Twitter anymore. 905 00:45:11,290 --> 00:45:14,860 I deleted my account the other day, but it'd been frozen for a very long time, but 906 00:45:14,860 --> 00:45:16,720 I finally decided to just get rid of it. 907 00:45:17,350 --> 00:45:18,790 All the links will be in the show notes. 908 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,745 Thanks for listening and watching, and I'll see you now. 909 00:45:21,015 --> 00:45:21,105 Time.