>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I, meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known. We'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Charlie, who is currently a

teacher, having worked in the charity sector

previously. He's speaking about his experience of

being a teacher. Charlie's passion and enthusiasm

about teaching really shines through, and how much

he sees teaching as his vocation is inspiring. So,

Charlie, what were you doing before you became a

teacher?

>> Charlie: So before I went into teaching, I worked for the

St. Vincent de Paul Society. I've volunteered with

the SVP since I was a teenager. So, yeah, I

converted to Catholicism when I was about 13. And

there was an absolute icon of woman in our parish

called Joanna, and she got us all involved in scp.

So it was in the youth SVP group. Used to go to,

the kind of old people's home on a Saturday

morning. Used to go and play cards with them and

have cups of tea with them, which is lovely, you

see, run a food bank and, you see, go and do

fundraising. It's really good. And then, so I

carried on with that when I was through uni as

well. And then, lo and behold, when I was my final

year, there was a job going in the Young

Vincentian's team. And, yeah, it was an amazing

job. Got to go all around the country, visit loads

of different schools, engaging young people in

social action, getting them involved in kind of

the idea that faith isn't just about prayer and

about, this kind of formal relationship with God,

but it's also about our social action, how we can

create the kingdom of God here in our communities.

And that was everything kind of that SVP was

about, was transforming our communities through

social action. So, yeah, I had the best time. But

going through all these schools then always sets,

that kind of seed in your mind. You're like, ah,

being in school is great. The best part about my

job was working with young people, so I thought I

should probably do this a bit more often. So, yes,

that's what I was doing before I came into

teaching. A bit of a segue into teaching then as

well.

>> Julia: Were you not tempted by chaplaincy then?

>> Charlie: I suppose it would have been very tempting to go

into chaplaincy. I think for me, a chaplain has an

amazing role within a school and really kind of

nurtures and really supports the faith of students

in school, which is phenomenal. But I wanted to be

in. In the classroom teaching ideas because, at

the end of the day, I'm a big nerd. I love books,

love reading, and I just fell in love with

theology. So part of what I also wanted to do was

nerd out about my subject. there's selfish reasons

in there as well. So I think being a teacher

rather than a chaplain was a part of that. And it

was a lot more in my character to talk about the

academic bits, more than just faith. That. And I

think there's so many amazing chaplains already

and there are amazing teachers. But I think there

was a certain mission for me being in the

classroom and helping students get their GCSEs and

getting their A levels to achieving everything

that they want to achieve or everything that they

feel God's calling them to achieve. So there was

something. There was a particular mission around

that as well. So there's a few elements there. Why

I didn't go into chaplaincy and went into teaching

in the end.

>> Julia: So did you feel God's influence in deciding on

teaching?

>> Charlie: Yeah. I mean, when I was younger, I always

thought, I've always loved learning things. That's

far from me saying I'm a good student. but I love

learning things. So. And. But it's a part of. Of

me learning, of loving, learning things is then

sharing that with other people. So I think

certainly there's gifts there that God has put in

within me on not just loving learning, but really

getting excited telling other people about it. I

think Julia knows, too well about when we used to

sit in our community dinners and somebody would,

you know, regret, you know, regrettably, they

would ask me about my. My dissertation. And then

the next 15 minutes of dinner was hijacked about

me telling them about, you know, something to do

with ecclesial teachings and doctrine. But, yeah,

so there's something about that, of sharing kind

of what, you know, what you're passionate about, I

think was particularly a gift that's definitely

instilled there by God. And you can feel, you

know, you spend time over years praying and

figuring out what God's put within you and what

he's called you to and to slowly tapping away

that, revealing that. and then you're like, ah,

that's what I'm supposed to be doing.

>> Julia: So how did others react to you decide that you

were going to go into teaching?

>> Charlie: It was a big segue going from. Or what felt like a

big segue for so many years working the charity

sector, and working on international development,

working with loads of different organisations. So

before I was even working with the SVP I, was

working with other organisations. so I worked with

Otra Cosa in Peru for a while. I worked at VSO in

Uganda. So it did feel like a. for my parents

anyway, a real shift, into a completely different

career path and they felt it was. I was always so

excited about doing charitable work. so yeah,

there was definitely a bit of a shock for people

but also not at the same time, because

unsurprisingly a huge part of charity work is

admin. And if you know me at all, Julia, admin is

perhaps not my absolute strongest point. and so

there was a realisation that actually probably a

stronger element of my skill set was probably

around working with people and being with people,

bouncing off people. So yes, certain elements

there as well.

>> Julia: It's really interesting that you decided to change

your career at this particular, particular point

in your life. What made you decide to do it and

how did that feel?

>> Charlie: I think I've already said I was visiting all these

different schools, I was working with young people

and that was my favourite part of my job was

working with young people. It was a bit difficult

thinking about changing career. so I studied

international development for my undergrad, and I

went in and did my master's in theology, because I

wanted to work in faith based charity sector,

which is what I was doing. So I kind of had

everything lined up and I thought brilliant, this

is what I'm doing. And I've, I, throughout

university I was working ferociously all the time

with different charities and I was like,

brilliant, this is a me set, this is what I was

going to do. And I had visions of where I was

going to go. But then when you get that feeling of

I, I think for my skill set I should be moving

somewhere else. And so that was the kind of

dawning moment of when I was seeing, you know,

visiting these schools and thinking this is the

move I should be making. I think initially it can

feel like a big change to, to change career and

particularly to retrain as a teacher because you

have to undergo basically a whole degree again.

You had to, you have to do your QTS and PGCE,

which by the way, you can do whilst you are

teaching. So it wasn't the end of the world, but

certainly it can feel daunting. But in the day

that's, I think when you know, you know. So it

was, it was a bit of a leap of faith. And when I

first, my first couple of weeks in school, I was

like, no, this is absolutely the right decision,

you know, so that change of career can be

challenging and it can be maybe particularly the

people around you as well. So whether that's your,

your, you know, partners, your husband, w. Your

parents, feel like a shift, a bit of a change, but

it's fine. That's life. it can be a bit daunting,

but there's no reason why what you studied at

university has to define what you do. There's no

reason why you can't shake things up, change

things a little bit. that's the joy of university.

You can always go back and retrain. I think we

lived with somebody when we was in community who

did the exact same thing, went from finance into

psychology and that was a huge change. but now

they love their job, they, they're changing

people's lives and it's beautiful. I think it's a

great thing.

>> Julia: I also think it's something of our generation that

it's more acceptable to change career. Like I

think our parents generation, they finished school

or university or whatever and they got that job

and then they stayed in that job. But now I think

there's more like fluidness in careers.

>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we, there's so much

pressure when you're at school. You know, what's

your career? What's your career? What are you

going to study at university? And that's going to

define you're doing. Which I think is unhelpful

because it means that actually from a young age we

were forced to choose a career that we didn't

necessarily want to do. We were kind of almost

pushed into, And then you could end up going to

university studying something which not every day

is always entirely sure what they're studying. I

see this in my A level students all the time. but

I always remind them it's not defining. You can

always to change it up, shift it about.

>> Julia: So have you had any moments in teaching that have

like cemented your yes?

>> Charlie: Yeah, absolutely. when I was in my trainee year,

my mentor was like, so how are you finding. You

don't want to leave, do you? I was like,

absolutely not. This is, like, exactly where I'm

supposed to be. my first week teaching was, I

mean, as any trainee will know, is daunting. It's

like a real change and it is big challenge being

the classroom, particularly that first week. But

it's exciting. It's. It's a pure adrenaline. and

you're being kind of forever creative and

responsive. So that was really exciting. and I've

just started in a new school this year, this

academic year. And, yeah, I mean, the headmaster

keeps catching me saying, why are you always

smiling? It's like, I love it. How can you not

love teaching in the classroom? so, yeah, no, for

sure. There's a certain peace, isn't there, when

you say yes to something? When you feel God's

called you something, it can be quite daunting,

quite scary. You say yes to it and then you're

like, oh, my word, what have I done? Is this the

right thing? And then you're in it and you feel

that peace. You're like, no, this was it. This was

great.

>> Julia: Has it matched up to your expectations? Mmm.

>> Charlie: It's very different. I mean, you can have a whole

view and vision of what you expect teaching to be

like. You can, you know, you have. I do. I don't

know if you've ever seen the Dead Poet Society. I

thought I was going to be Robin Williams, the most

amazing, inspirational teacher. I was going to be

quirky and fabulous and it's going to have this

great aesthetic and it's not the case.

>> Julia: You mean your students don't think that about you?

>> Charlie: They do think I have the grooviest socks. many

student has tried to compete with me on my

mismatched, groovy sock game. And, as they

themselves will attest, nobody has yet beaten me.

So, yeah. So I think, yeah, at least on the sock

game, I'm strong. So, yeah. Did it meet my

expectations? No, but it definitely surpassed

them. So I think. But I think this is the same

with anything you can. We have dreams of what our

life is going to be like, you know, who we're

going to be with or, what we're going to do. And

we have that vision or that plan. We're like, yes,

that's what's going to be. And then God's

laughing. He's like, I've got Something even

better. You just kind of like need to roll with

it. so. No, absolutely. It's, it's, it's so much

better than I was expecting to be. But of course

the visual and what you intend it to be is very

different, but definitely for the better.

>> Julia: Has your previous experience of working in the

charity sector impacted the way you are as a

teacher?

>> Charlie: I think so. I definitely do things differently, I

think, than other teachers in my department and

the other teachers I kind of work alongside. I

think I'm very mission and vision focused. So

that's very kind of charity sector. It's. I deeply

care about the students in front of me and the

reason why I went into charity sectors because I

was deeply concerned about social justice issues.

>> Julia: Are you the teacher that runs the social justice

club?

>> Charlie: So I worked in a Catholic school for a while and

certainly was running ahead with svp, groups and

then we also ran, like a. We collaborated with

different schools in the, in the district and it

was all to do around social justice but also

public speaking. There was different elements

there. So certainly was that teacher that was

trying to collaborate and get students to work

together.

>> Julia: You just mentioned that you've worked in a

Catholic school. So for people who might not be as

aware, how does it differ from being in a Catholic

school to a non Catholic school?

>> Charlie: I think it's really interesting. the Catholic

school I worked in, was in a very deprived area,

and it faced a lot of challenges. But my time in

the school, I loved it. And the, the quotation of

the school, the motto of the school was to serve.

And you saw that throughout the school. So you can

imagine, I'm sure, you know, you've got Waterloo

Road in your mind of this school in a private area

and not too far wrong really. But the children

hold the door open for each other. They would

still expect to be kind with each other and often

when they realised that they weren't being as kind

as they should be, they were actually very honest

and upfront about it. they were courtesy to each

other. They would, so many times students would,

you know, go to, get me a chair or, yeah, try and

do things to, to help you out. Which was really

different from any other school I've been in. So

certainly that Catholic culture there, of service,

of compassion, was embedded in there, which was

really beautiful to see and the sense of community

and identity and solidarity was really strong. So

there was a really, had tragedy happened whilst I

was at the school. So, a death occurred and the

way that the school came together was so deeply

moving and the way that students support each

other, again was so deeply moving that I've not

seen in the other schools I've worked in. So there

is something unique and special about a Catholic

school, for sure. not that one is better than the

other, they're just very different. But, yeah,

something unique

>> Julia: Makes sense that they're different and have their

own positive and strengths and things as well as,

I'm sure, their own challenges as well.

What would you say to someone who is now

considering becoming a teacher?

>> Charlie: Oh, my word, do it. I think you have to certainly

pause and reflect. That's definitely needed.

Teaching is really challenging, but the. We always

say in teaching, your high days are so high. Like,

it's, you know, when your kids are just flowing

with you, you're having a good day, it's like the

best feeling ever. It's so good. and then your low

days are very low. so I had a couple. In the

beginning of this term, it was new school, it was

a bit challenging. So, as always, it's, it's

difficult. So definitely take that into account. I

think, you know, if you can ride those highs and

lows, which, you know, come with any job, but, but

particularly, choppy in teaching and it's a very

social job. You know, you're working with young

people. If young people at the heart of everything

you want to do, then absolutely, I think, you

know, teaching is a great calling. if you love

knowledge and learning or you're good at

explaining things, absolutely, please do. But, as

always, think, reflect and pray about it as well.

It's a vocation, I think, more than just a job.

because again, it's vision focused. It's not like

you can. It's not just an admin job where you go

in nine to five and you do your job and you go

home. there's a real commitment because the

challenges can be very challenging. You have to

always have that vision and mission in your mind

to kind of keep driving you through. But

absolutely. I mean, I'm biassed. I think it's. I

think it's the best job. But, yeah, I can still

acknowledge that it's highs and lows and

challenges.

>> Julia: So what are some of the challenges?

>> Charlie: I've seen this in a number of schools where I can

throw myself and all my energy and it can be all

consuming. As, you know, at certain students, I'm

like, they, Their behaviour might be really bad or

their, Their attainment might be really low. they

might have issues at home, whatever it might be.

The student is just not kind of really at where

they're supposed to be at. And you throw yourself

and all your energy and your compassion, your

patience, you can try your best and they're just

not receiving it or they don't seem to be

receiving it in that moment. And it's, it's soul

destroying. It's really hard because I always say

I can feel like my heart is like tearing into

almost when a student is, is, is, is really

struggling and what you think you're saying to

help them and they're just not absorbing that and

that's really hard. And you're trying to do it

with the greatest love. That is really hard to do.

it's just like the other week a student, is now

suspended. And I was trying my absolute best the

weeks before, like every lesson. And he, in my

lessons, he's, you know, he's not, he's not too

bad. He's, he's a bit cheeky. But beyond that

he's, he great. And every lesson I'm like I can

see from all the school records it's come on like

you need to. And, and there's, there'll be small

glimmers of. Yeah, I know. And those are the

golden moments. You have to kind of hinge pin on.

But then, you know, the other moments will be eye

rolls or, you know, whatevers or, and it's, and

it's when you see kind of things like that when

you're like, oh no. So it's, yeah, it's, it's

difficult when, when you try and use all your love

and your passion on something and it's not

received. That's a real challenge for sure. But

other than that, I'd say it's everything else you

expect in any other job. Workload is really high,

but that's no different from anybody else. I would

say all the other challenges you can expect here

from every other teacher and they'll moan about it

always.

>> Julia: How do you pick yourself up when you've had those

challenging days? Yes.

>> Charlie: It's hard. And again it's the why. And I think,

you know, you and I did youth ministry for years

where it's not quite as intense as that because

you only spend brief moments with them. But it's

always remembering, you know, remembering your

why. Why am I here? Why have I just, you know,

gone home and cried about this student that's

really has won't remember anything they said to

you or, you know, Think about what they're doing.

But it's the why. It's like, well, no, this

student actually deserves a life full of dignity,

a life that is, you know, fulfilled and worth

living in their eyes. And what can I do to, to

ensure that that happens? And that's kind of, you

know, and at the end of the day, you know,

learning things is, is good for us. It's, you

know, God gave us a mind for a reason and things

to learn. Not only is it fun and engaging, it

fulfils us in a way, as well as our kind of, I

suppose, our spiritual and material needs. So no,

it's certainly, it's hard on those days. But the

why, the why is always the thing I'll come back

to.

>> Julia: And, what have you learned about yourself?

>> Charlie: That's a big question.

>> Julia: It is a big question.

>> Charlie: We always talk about teaching reflective practise.

So at the end of each lesson you always reflect

and think, what could I have done better that

lesson? You know, what did, what were the outcomes

of that lesson? Did we manage them? Was there

something that I could have done better to, to

ensure my pupils could have reached those

objectives? So it's interesting in. It's a very

unique job where actually you're always trying to

reflect on not just what you did, but also to a

certain extent who you are. Some teachers are very

interesting, isn't that when they walk into a

classroom their persona will be the same as it is

anywhere else. So it's the same. And probably a

bit more like me. I have a bit more of an in

classroom persona, mostly because I'm deadly

unserious and so unprofessional. it's quite

painful. So I can't do that in front of the kids.

It would probably get me fired. So, there's a

certain Persona that you have to put up sometimes.

So it's interesting each time thinking about who

am I use the word modelling, who am I telling my

pupils who to be my kind? Am I compassionate? am

I, you know, generous with my time? Am I

considerate of others? Am I fair? and all these

things are the things that my students pick up on.

And so it's, it's challenging because you then

begin to see parts of yourself which sometimes

you're like, okay, I didn't know I was quite so

patient or quite so, you know, maybe nice to, to

students who maybe don't always act in the same

way to you. So it's interesting. But then there's

other times when you say, oh, I'm definitely not

patient. So it's interesting, I think, yeah. What

have I learned about myself? Each day is something

new. Still very much that same nerdy person. I'll

be halfway through a less and a student will ask

me a question. I know that they'll have a five

minute break from whatever they're doing because

I'll, then be whittering on like, oh my God, this

is called saying a war. I'm going to explain to

you this. I'm going to tell you about mediaeval

theology. This is going to be really interesting

for you. Some of them are really interested, of

course, and a lot of them aren't.

>> Julia: Do they know this yet? That if they ask you a

question that you'll go talk about it for 5, 10

minutes and then they can get out doing their

schoolwork for that time?

>> Charlie: Oh, absolutely. This is a tool in any student's

toolkit for getting out of parts of working. and

it's so interesting because sometimes my students

will be like, oh, sir, like, where's your

favourite restaurant? I was like. And then

sometimes I'm like, oh, word. I absolutely. I was

like, no, I see what you're doing. I was like,

you'll have to ask me at the end of break or the

end of the lesson. So, yeah, sometimes I get away

with it. particularly if it's on topic. I'll

happily digress and go off topic. But yeah, I do

try my best to get them to ask me at the end of

the lesson. Hopefully, not consuming too much of

their learning time.

>> Julia: Well, learning is important. So does being a

teacher now define you?

>> Charlie: I hope not. I think it's a very consuming job as

I've, it's probably made clear is, you know,

there's all this passion and energy and things

that you bring to, to this job. and you know, as I

said before, it's more of a vocation than just a

job. So it can be like that. And I think from some

teachers I've met, it's very much the case. But I

hope not. You know, I'm still, I'm still Charlie

who, you know, loves change ringing that, loves a

good pub quiz, cycles about all over the place. I

don't know. So I hope, I hope it doesn't define

me. But also if it does, that's fine. It's a, it's

something that I truly love and will happily, you

know, dedicate my life to. So if it does define me

in the end, that's okay as long as it benefits

others.

>> Julia: Are there any stereotypes of being a teacher that

you wish to challenge?

>> Charlie: This is probably more for pupils or for students

than it is for, anybody else. In that a teacher

will never be mean to be mean or never reprimand

someone for the fun of doing it. I always say it's

like if something, if a teacher does something

like that, it's always because they have 30 or so

students in a classroom that they're trying to

bring on in one direction, to get to one place in

order to help them achieve everything they need to

achieve. and it can seem so harsh sometimes, I

think from externally and it's not the case that

teachers are necessarily harsh for harsh sake.

It's always a reason behind it. And I think as

much as we can be, teachers want to be liked,

teachers want to have a balance. You know, that's

why we've gone into teaching is to, to help

students, not to be mean to them. So yeah, there's

always that. You know, I was speaking to my nieces

before who would say my teachers are really mean

to me. And I was like, well, let's talk about why.

And when you unfold it, they're like, oh, okay, I

can understand that now. we do, teachers do moan

about an awful lot about, you know, workload and

it's fair. I mean it's so rarely will work not go

home. You know, whether it's marking or essay, you

know, marking or whatever, you know, preparation

work, it always goes home. So. Yeah. Do we moan

about it all the time? We do. Is that a fair

stereotype? Probably, yeah. Should it be defined

as probably not?

>> Julia: I guess the other stereotype is like you get six

weeks off in the summer.

>> Charlie: Ah. yeah, that's funny. It is very good summer.

You know, we have good holidays for sure. But as

you can probably hear, I'm a bit sniffly now at

half terms just beginning this week and I know for

the whole week I'm gonna be so ill because you do

get burnt out. You know, you have all this energy,

you're bas. Performing for five, six hours a day

non stop and you're running about doing other

things. So yeah, the holidays, tempting, as a

stereotype. But yes, it's, it's not entirely

accurate in that you have a lot of work to do in,

in, in that time. Whether it's preparation work. I

spent my time, some holidays doing whole schemes

of work, in my new role. So it's, yeah, not

entirely accurate this, the whole, you know, big

long holidays.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you knew before you became a

teacher?

>> Charlie: I wish I knew the joy of teaching in a classroom

on a good - you know, when you're having one of

those good days. I wish that. Great. I wish I'd

felt or knew about that joy and that fulfilment

earlier. Because. And how it's. I mean, I've been

teaching for a while now and it's lovely. But you

think, oh, I could have saved time, I could have

done this for longer. so in a way it's almost, you

know, that feeling of knowing that you love doing

this thing that, you know, brings you joy, that

brings you fulfilment, that brings you peace. I

mean, it's lovely. You almost think, you know,

it'd be lovely to have had that scenery. Same way

when you meet someone that you love, it's like, I

wish I met them sooner. This may be one thing. I

would say that there is still loads of admin and

paperwork, but it has a clear mission and focus

and it's, in my view anyway, a lot more manageable

than just a pure admin job for me. So, yeah,

there's. There's a balance there.

>> Julia: So what are you grateful for?

>> Charlie: M. Well, I'm grateful for the amazing people I

have in my life. I'm so thankful for my amazing

loving parents. My parents didn't even go to

school, and we grew up on a - despite what the

voice sounds like, I realised we grew up on a

really, tough council state. But my parents really

loved and cared for me and they really kind of

pushed me, when I was at school without, you know,

even really realising that what they were doing.

So I think really grateful so much always, always

for them and everything they do and have done for

me, and continue to do for me. there's been

amazing people in my life. Not necessarily. I

wouldn't say teachers, but not as in school

teachers, but people have told me m. So many

things. So Fr Jim from here, at Farm Street has

been one of those amazing people in my life who

have really helped guide me. I mentioned her,

earlier. Joanna, from the SVP, has been an

incredible compass for so many years and still is.

on all things to do with social justice, on how to

be a decent person, how to be a half decent

Catholic. she's been a real, rock for me in my, My

faith. Yeah. There's so many things and people.

People I think are the things I'm most grateful

for and opportunities. I mean, the church is just

the Catholic Church is phenomenal. It's been such

a place of welcome for me, a place of community.

It's everything. Everything that I haven't, is

owing to her. And everything that she has given me

over the years, my friends, my community, I went

to university and that was all really, because,

you know, the Church in various ways encouraged me

to do so and all the communities that was a part

of in the Church encouraged me to do so. So, yeah,

there's so many things to be thankful for and so

many people to be thankful. I mean, I could talk

about them all day, but I won't. I'll stop because

people probably want to eat their dinner or, read

a book.

>> Julia: Thank you for joining us, Charlie. Thanks for

listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I know this

episode is going to stay with me because of

Charlie's decision to follow where he thought God

was calling him and to change career and retrain,

which can be a really scary decision. How about

you? We'd love to hear how Charlie's story

resonates with you. And why not also tell us if

you're facing an experience you wish you knew how

to look at differently, it might just be something

we can help with. You can find out more about this

and other other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank

you again for listening. I hope you'll join me

again next time on, Things I Wish I Knew.