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I am your host, Heather Garbutt.

Welcome.

Hello everybody, I'm here today with Daniel Ryan.

He is an amazing man, a real gem of a human being, and we are here to talk about how protected our vulnerable mums in family court.

Let me tell you a bit about him.

He's the voice behind that family guy, a candid and compassionate advocate for parents navigating the storm of separation, custody battles, domestic abuse conflict.

He provides unfiltered expertise with real world impact.

He brings many years of front line experience supporting families through divorce, custody, and domestic conflict without hiding behind the legal jargon.

His no nonsense story-driven approach helps us truly understand the human cost of family breakdown and what we can do to navigate it more wisely.

Welcome, Daniel, thank you for joining me again.

And it's great to be back, Heather.

Thank you, thank you.

Firstly, the big question I want to set the scene with is who are vulnerable mums?

, in a family court setting, and if we focus on that, in a family court setting, a vulnerable mum, is a mum who has suffered, Trauma, suffered distress, suffered abuse within their relationship, and that has led them to family court.

so they are vulnerable in that, as I say, often they are abused, or have been, and they're trying to escape that, that takes them to court.

And obviously, once they're in court, which is a very unnatural setting, you know, that vulnerability is heightened, really.

They're very exposed, you know, with lots of eyes looking at them.

Presumably if you've had some sort of domestic abuse, you're more likely to be anxious, depressed, in brain fog and feel sensitive in your body.

, the, the, the gaze thing is so powerful.

It's very intimidating to somebody who's been abused.

The authority figure thing will be very powerful to somebody who's been abused, and any sort of conflict and fighting, so conflicting lawyers, you know, quite aside from having the abuser in the court.

What do, thinking about that, what do courts recognise as domestic abuse?

It, it, it sits in, in court world, it sits in a number of categories, and those categories very quickly are physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, which can sometimes be referred to as mental abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, and financial abuse.

Those are really the main six subcategories that the court recognising in terms of abuse.

Now, now, obviously we now have,, what is currently on trend, and that's perhaps a terrible phrase to use, but I'll use it anyway, is coercive and controlling behaviour, is currently a very trendy, subject within family court, and indeed within the criminal sector as well, as a result of some changes in the in the recently launched Domestic Abuse Act 2021.

So yeah, coercive and controlling behaviour is also now recognised as a, as a one of the subcategories of abuse.

Thank you.

That's really helpful.

So.

How do the courts treat women and mums who have said they've been abused by their partner?

I want to say.

I want to say that they, that they, you know, enveloped them in a world of comfort and calm, and look after them wonderfully.

But that's not the case.

, the, the, you know, vulnerable mum, abused mum, is entering a world which is full of procedure and process, and there's very little room in my experience, for compassion, sympathy, or indeed empathy.

so vulnerable mum needs to steel herself, not the easiest thing to do, depending on your history and how, how bad it has been.

But needs to steel herself because she is going to enter an environment where she feels that that abuse is continuing and where she's now suddenly faced with other individuals who are equally aggressive, or equally contentious, because those are, those are court officers.

, solicitors, barristers, as you've touched on already, so it, it's not a fun place to be and it, it, it is, it is an ordeal.

I mean, you know, it is an ordeal to go into family court.

Particularly, you're going in there to try and find some comfort and some resolution, but you're about to enter a second round of pain.

Yes, it's sort of the way you describe it sounds like a sort of institutionalised abuse.

That's it, yeah, yeah, I would, I would accept that it's, it is, because the, the court is, is trying to do its job, and the court in itself has, has a whole wealth of issues of its own, currently we're trying to deal with as a result of under-resourcing primarily, It is institutionalised abuse because there's yeah, vulnerable mums, I don't believe in in the years I've been doing this, are in any way treated as they should be because the mechanism's not there.

I don't think it's deliberate.

I would I I would be terrified and saddened if the court deliberately abused them.

But, but the mechanism, the instrument by which we say, hang on a minute, I've got to deal with the with the legal argument here, but, I need to recognise the history that this individual has been through.

I need to recognise the dark place that this individual is coming from, and I need to do something, you know, to, to, to try and lighten that load, and the court hasn't got that instrument, hasn't got that mechanism.

.

So there isn't any additional support that can be given, that can be accessed then?

Not particularly not particularly, you know, that sort of support, you know, is about down to the, the, the mum in this instance, going off and finding it herself privately, so, you know, if she wants to go and seek private therapy or whatever, which is obviously hugely valuable, but the, but the court is not going to direct that.

The court is, the court is not there to fix her.

The court is there to fix the situation.

And it's not there then to offer her victim support or anything like that?

No, no, the court has no instruments for that, no instruments for that at all.

if, if the mum decides to take the matter obviously into the criminal arena as well, you know, by.

Involving the police in in in in whatever it is that she's experienced.

The police have a have a victim support mechanism.

I have to say it's not very good in sadly, but they do have a victim support mechanism of some, some value, albeit limited.

OK.

So how do you see this affecting the moms?

Well, as I, I think as I said already, it's essentially it's a second ordeal.

and, and when clients come to me, you know, as vulnerable mums, I will say to them, look, I need to tell you what we're about to go into, I need to tell you the journey we're about to go on, and, OK, me and my team are going to be alongside you, in order to, to protect you as best we can, but there are going to be elements of what happens over the course of the next 1 or 2 years in family court that I can't protect you from.

, and, and so you need to steel yourself to the fact that there are going to be some incredibly uncomfortable moments, and there are gonna be some moments that are as horrific as what you've experienced in the past.

and there are obviously ultimately, and I'm sure we'll, we'll talk about this some more, but ultimately there's gonna be an occasion or more during this process where you're going to have to relive your past.

In front of an audience, in a courtroom, albeit, albeit a limited private audience, but an audience all the same, in a courtroom, and you're going to have to relive, the, the experiences that you've had.

And so they need to be ready for that, and I need to prepare them for that.

and, and having said that there is no victim support mechanism in court, as I say, we we we operate in slightly different ways, so we do have a support mechanism for our clients and we look after them as as very best we can.

, using professionals, but there is, it, it's not a fun place.

It's not a fun place.

No, I know you sort of, mentioned it to me when, when you sent me some notes to, to, to consider.

, about it being like going to the dentist and you're gonna experience some discomfort, but this, this feels, you know, way more than that to me.

It feels like going to the dentist every 3 months and having your teeth drilled without anaesthetic.

Mhm.

Yeah, I would accept that analogy, yeah, I say I, I've used the I've used the dentists analogy for years, you know, before you get a beautiful smile you've got to take some paint.

, but you're right, as I say, what I, oh by the way, I didn't mention there's no anaesthetic.

We go every week and the bloke's untrained.

but apart from that, crack on, but yeah, so it, it's not, it's not, it's not great, it's not great.

It's not great, no.

it's not good news really, is it, but anyway.

No, it's, no, it's far from good news, but it's, suddenly it's all we've got.

I mean this is the mechanism that's available to us and so, you know, we are saying to a mum who potentially has been through 5, 1015 or more years of abuse, and that, as I say, that abuse could have been physical or or psychological or whatever, whatever form it took, or indeed a combination of them all.

And now I'm going to say to her, look, I'm gonna sort this matter out for you.

We're gonna, we're gonna get this to the place we want it to be, where you're in a happier place and your children are safe, etc.

etc.

But I'm gonna put you through hell to get you there.

Mhm.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, all I can say is I'm glad they've got you on their side, because otherwise it could be an awful lot worse.

yes, it could, yes, it could, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you mentioned children then, you know, and I'm thinking how, how does this all play out when custody's an issue?

It's it's messy.

Obviously, you know, invariably the reason that that vulnerable mums, abused mums are in family court is because they're fighting for their children, they're fighting to protect their children.

, and whilst the court is focused on children, that is its primary purpose is to safeguard and protect children.

it's still a hell of a ride, and it's still challenging for a mother who is essentially being asked to justify her history.

And at the same time is fighting to try and safeguard her children and protect as much of their childhood and the innocence of their childhood as she can.

Yes, to try and minimise the trauma.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaking personally as a psychotherapist of 40 years, I've seen lots of people who've come through that have been really badly damaged by it, and it takes a lot of unpacking.

To really come back to yourself as the core human being you started out as before you went through that.

Yes, yeah, no, I, I, I agree with that entirely and we, we see too many clients that we, that we deal with, we deal with the court process, we get it to where we want it to be and, you know, and their children are safe and they're safe and that's all great.

But once that's happened, once the legal process is over and the court doors are closed, You've then got to deal with the rest.

Because at that point, that you've spent the last 18 months, 2 years, or whatever it might be dealing with the legal issues, you have had no opportunity to actually address what is, what is the damage caused by where you've been.

and, you know, and that, that can be, as you say, months, years, a lifetime.

Indeed, indeed.

I want to go back to the sort of nuts and bolts of things really.

Tell me the difference between what happens in a criminal court and what happens in a family court, because I understand.

The, the sense of allegations and proof and burden of truth and all of that, I think you've got better words for it than me.

Mhm.

It, it is, they are, they are two, in, in terms of allegations, they are two totally different arenas.

If we start with with criminal court, criminal court, you know, somebody chooses a mum chooses to go to the police and report the abuse that she's incurred, that she's experienced, you know, that she's, that she's internalised, Providing the police can build a case, there's no guarantee of that, the police will then take the matter into a trial via the Crown Prosecution Service, and the Crown Prosecution Service are then challenged, in order to use what we call the burden of proof.

And the burden of proof that is used in criminal court is a system called beyond reasonable doubt.

So, You're the accused, we, as, as a courtroom have to prove through the through the through the the presentation of evidence and the presentation of argument, that beyond reasonable doubt, our view is that you are guilty of the crime, whatever the crime may be.

And in this instance, abuse, you know, a level of abuse.

So that's the criminal court.

Now the family court operates on a fundamentally different system, because the family court's burden of proof system is,, a mechanism that we call the, the balance of probability.

Now what that means is, the judge, and there are no juries in family court, so there's no 12, you know, good men and true sat there listening to the story.

It is a judge who makes the decision on his own or on her own.

so the judge listens to the story being told, and the judge listens to questioning which takes place in the same way as it would do in criminal court.

So both parts, the the the the allegation or the, the, the alleger is questioned, and the, you know, and and the would-be perpetrator is questioned, and the judge makes a decision and that decision is based on the probability of balance, which is how likely is it, in my opinion, from what I've heard and what I've seen.

That this happened, and he starts, he or she starts from the premise that every allegation that's presented in the family court, there is a 50% prospect that it's true, and there is a 50% prospect that it's not true.

So that's where I start from, I'm stood in the middle of that particular, that particular balance beam.

, and I've got to decide which way I'm gonna move as a judge.

You know, do I move to the left, and because it's true, or do I move to the right because it's not.

And the judge only has to move one point.

So they only have to move to, well, I'm 51% sure that this has happened, or this is likely to have happened, rather than 49% not likely.

So it's a, it's a tiny measure.

It's a tiny measure.

but it makes the, the, the proving of allegations in family court awfully hard.

Because when we cut through all of the, and I, and I, I almost swore there, when we cut through all the, all the devilishness, I'll use that instead, It's down to one man or one woman to make that decision based on what they've heard.

Did they get any special training for this?

Oh yeah, yeah, obviously judges are trained, you know, obviously family law judges, family court judges are obviously trained to deal with all aspects of family law, including listening to evidence and assessing evidence.

So yes, they they they're certainly trained and and obviously the the bulk of family law judges are incredibly experienced at what they do, that you know, they've followed the legal path and and and find themselves as judges, and I have the utmost respect for them.

But the job.

That decision Where you are essentially basing your, your, did this or did this not happen on.

What is in front of you and how well two people have presented themselves is Awkward, in my opinion, awkward because the reality is this.

Somebody turns up in the family court and they are an incredibly good liar.

Let's, let's, let's say it as it is.

They are an incredibly good liar.

And they deliver their story, and the judge listens and finds them very credible.

And finds them very authentic.

And then the other side, the other person who is going to get gonna get questioned who was against them in this particular matter.

Might not cope well with being on the on the stand.

They might fall apart, they might stumble over their words, they might forget stuff because they just don't cope with being.

In that environment.

So the judge says, you were very credible, you were not credible, I'm gonna go with you.

But hang on, he's the liar, or she's the liar, you know, so that's the difficulty of family court.

It, it is, it is a, it can be fairly rough justice.

Right, that, I suppose that's the thing.

I mean, they're obviously trained in the law, but I was wondering if they're trained in personality assessment.

But they are, yes, they do, they do take, as I say, they do take large chunks of training in, yes, in not quite psychological assessment, but not far off, you know, their ability to read people.

I've found in all the time I've been doing it, is, is pretty reasonable, it's pretty reasonable.

Good, good, I'm pleased to hear that at least.

Yeah.

So, and what's the effect then on a mum in that situation?

, It is that being in that environment, being in the environment on the day, which, which can be 2 or 3 days in, in, in, in sort of succession, where you are being questioned, where you're being questioned about what you've said, what you've alleged, and on the other side, obviously the, you know, the father, the dad, he's being questioned about his counter to what you have said.

They can be horrendous.

Those 2 or 3 days you've got if we picture it, you're in a courtroom.

You've been through 15 years of abuse.

Let's let's set the scene.

You've been in 15 years of abuse.

The only thing that's dividing you from your perpetrator, the person who has continued who carried out this abuse on you, is a thin blue screen, fabric screen, that is all that divides the two of you.

You're, you're moved to the witness box, he still can't see you, while you're being questioned.

You're being questioned by his barrister.

Their role is to protect him.

So they can be quite aggressive, they can be quite doubting in your, in, in what it is that you're saying to them, they can be quite dismantling in what it is that you're saying to them.

Their, their, their job is to disrupt you.

So you get to relive the trauma of, of the allegations that you have made and and the stories that you have told, you get to relive that whilst being attacked, by a legal professional.

And the judge, very rarely, very rarely, in my experience, steps in and says, I think you're being a bit excessive there, I think you're being a bit cruel.

I think you're being a bit too full on.

Invariably the judge just sits back and lets it go on.

But while all that's going on, sat listening to all of this is your perpetrator.

And invariably, and this is a terrible thing to say, but invariably they are enjoying your pain.

.

It's really horrible, yes.

And I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, the.

The characteristics that develop in relation to being abused are feeling that nobody.

Will believe you and having to justify and explain everything.

so you're gonna come across as insecure and uncertain.

So that that's a sort of odd stacked against you.

Absolutely, absolutely, and.

And again, in my experience, particularly with sexual abuse, which obviously arguably is, is the worst, you know, of that, of that sub-category of abuse, sexual abuse is arguably the worst.

, It is very commonplace for a a a mum, for a mother who is being cross-examined about sexual abuse to be vague on the detail, because why would they sit in an open courtroom and share graphically what they have suffered?

Why would they do that?

, and then what happens is when the judge is giving his judgement, you know, two days later or whatever, he's saying, well, mother was a bit vague on that point.

But, but why would she be anything else?

Well, absolutely, because if she's been traumatised, she likely was partially not there.

Yeah, exactly, yes, yeah, not there, she's compartmentalised it, she's put it in a box, she's shut the lid on it, and she's, and I don't really want to go there again.

, and potentially if they've been, if, if the mother has been to the police and also reported the matters to the police, and we have essentially two legal tracks running alongside each other, the criminal track and the family law track, she's already been through what we call an ABE interview with the police, which is achieving better evidence.

so she's already been through an ABE interview with the police, which is incredibly traumatising.

You're videoed and two trained police officers, usually 2.

They want the graphic detail.

So you've done that, you've relived this episode.

This episode took place in the, in the relationship, you've now relived it.

In, in a police interview, you're now in court, in family court, and you're being asked to relive it again.

Yeah, takes my breath away and turns my stomach.

And indeed, yeah, indeed, and it was, it was, you know, it was rounded up for me a number of years ago by a by a mum who was a lovely, lovely lady, and she said, how many times do I need to be attacked?

Mhm.

Gosh, this really highlights the importance of having backup therapy.

But then I know in criminal proceedings, having therapy, can be considered coaching the witness and I don't know where where that works in family law, if, if that's the same.

It, it, it is the same, yeah, we have the same issue that, you know, often at one side will raise.

Well, the mother's going through therapy, you know, so she's she's going through some sort of reparative therapy process and how do we not know that she is being coached and like.

Well, well, we don't, but what would you rather?

Would you rather she continue to live with the nightmares of this until this till this court process is over, and then we'll let her start to repair?

You know, is that the way forward?

It's really brutal.

I mean, and, you know, seeing what you'd give me in guidance notes and hearing how you're describing it.

In reality, is so much more graphic.

I'm feeling quite disturbed and horrified.

It, it, yeah, it is, it is a, it's a, it is a, when I reflect on it, when I talk, take a step back because obviously I'm in the middle of it day in and day out, when I take a step back and think about it, I think it is a horrible environment.

It is a truly horrible environment for anybody who is, you know, who is genuinely a victim of abuse, and that's obviously another twist to this, but anybody who is genuinely a victim of abuse.

, to be asked to relive that abuse in a very formal setting, in a setting that is designed for conflict.

You know, it is, it's, it's quite gladiatorial, you know, you're on one side of the room with your legal representation, he's on the other side of the room with his legal representation.

There's a 1520 ft gap in between you, that's all there is, and then on an elevated position, there's somebody who's carrying the title of judge.

and they're essentially, you know, then on their word, you fight.

, goodness me.

Yes, quite horrifying.

And and some of the things that people say to me are how difficult it is when you've got spaced out court appearances.

So that it can go on for a very long time, and that really then means that whoever is the abuser here can really torment you for a lot longer.

Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, because, because of the, the congestion in the court system, in the family court system, the congestion is horrendous.

And so it's not unusual for, for the, for the, the gap, the time lapse between hearings can be 456 months in some instances.

, from your point of view, that's as a vulnerable mum, that's horrendous.

You're having to, you know, you're, you're stuck in this purgatory, you know, stuck in this dark forest waiting for somebody to show you the way out.

From a perpetrator's point of view, they're just dragging it out.

They're dragging out the abuse.

They're thoroughly enjoying the fact that you wake up every day as vulnerable mum.

Potentially terrified.

Potentially, and I spent a lot of time obviously talking with my clients when we're heading towards a hearing, our process is we finish a hearing and I say, right, you just need to kind of park this now as best you can.

We are 3 months, 4 months away from this kicking up again.

I'm gonna need to do a little, little bit of something with you in in that period of time, but for the most part.

Go and get on with your life and try and park this as best you can, but then in the, in the weeks leading up to the next hearing, obviously I've then got to re-engage with them and, Build them up and build them up to be ready for the next round.

And so it is, it is, you know, it's not, it's, it's not, it's just not right.

It's not a system that the more I do it, the less and less confidence I have that this is the right way of dealing with these issues.

Right, OK.

So what can moms do to protect themselves or empower themselves if they have to go through this?

I think, I think the first thing they need to do is say, which is the conversation they have when they come and see me, which is know that this is not over.

That just because you've left the relationship, and that is a huge step, a huge step, and a very positive step, unfortunately, you are going to, in some form or fashion, have to step back into that relationship a number of times over the course of the legal process.

Be aware of that.

, be aware of the fact that this is not only going to be, disruptive for you, and emotionally traumatising for you and immensely upsetting for you, by virtue of that, you are going to transfer that distress and that upset onto your children.

You're not gonna want to, it's not a deliberate thing.

but at the end of the day we're all human and we, we can only mask for so long.

and so you are going to transfer that distress onto your children, and so, aside from steeling yourself to the journey that is ahead and and trust, and if you get a, well, I'll say this, if you get a decent legal representative, they will they will prepare you for the journey ahead, so there are no surprises.

, apart from doing that, the other side of that coin is to keep your children informed in a child appropriate way as to what's going on.

Otherwise, what you're doing is you're plunging your children into the dark for potentially 2 years.

Right, yes, you can't do that.

So from my point of view, OK, you get yourself empowered, you get yourself prepared.

And I would say also, get yourself really well supported, gather your friends around you, even if, you know, they, they'd stepped back because of abuse, which often happens, go back to the people who had your interests at heart right from the beginning and gather them to give you some security and backup and practical help as well as emotional help.

Absolutely, the, the, the, the, the Americans have a in American divorce, which, which I, you know, I've dipped in and out of, they have a phrase, it's called, it's called gathering your tribe.

Right, yeah.

And it's just get your tribe around you, and you're right, it's those who are going to help you legally, those who are going to help you emotionally, those who are going to help you with the children, the practical stuff of helping you with the children.

Yeah, gather your tribe.

OK, so where can people find you, Daniel, and tell us a little bit about how you work and particularly your fee scales and that sort of thing, cos I think that's really important.

Yeah, we, we, I mean, we, they can find me by, by really the easiest way to find me is just to search that family law guy on, on the search platforms on Google and such like and, and it will lead you to me.

, we are, we, we cover the, the, the whole of the country, so we cover the whole of England and Wales in terms of family court because Scottish Family Court is slightly different.

and in terms of fees, our website, which is MackenziePicar.com, again, you'll find it by just searching that family law guy.

we'll tell you our fee structure.

I designed our fees 20 odd years ago, and I said 20 years ago when we'd started doing this.

, we would never be about the money, we would never be about the fees.

We accept the fact, I accept the fact that I run a commercial entity, and, and it comes with cost, you know, I have staff and I have buildings and I have, etc.

etc.

But the fee structure is aimed to be as reasonable as I can possibly make it.

, in order that we can help as many people as we possibly can.

And given that today we're obviously, Heather, we're talking about vulnerable mums, we work with a number of vulnerable mums, most of the time, you know, we have a good complement of vulnerable mums in our client base.

And a lot of those vulnerable mums, are on our what we call our pro bono list, which means they don't actually pay us anything at all.

and we work with them completely for free and they get access to everything that we do.

, including all of our emotional support systems, At no cost, and I, I, I don't do that out of some bizarre sense of, of philanthropy.

I do that because it's just the right thing to do for some people.

, you know, some people just kind of need, and invariably it is that man woman thing, you know, it's invariably some people just need to step up and say, I just need a man to actually be to, to, when he says he's gonna look after me, he does.

Yeah, yeah, so you're part of the healing process on the quiet.

Yeah, well, yes, yeah, yeah, I should say, yeah.

Perhaps we are and I'd I'd like to think we are, hopefully there's a little bit of, a little bit of, you know, therapy going on whilst they're spending their time with us.

Restitution.

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, but certainly not stepping on your toes, Heather.

I know where I know where my, where my skill set ends.

Believe me, I know where mine does as well when I listen to you.

It seems to me you go where angels fear to tread, and thank you for it.

Yes, it's, as I say, it's, it's a, it's an unpleasant environment, it's a secret environment.

The family court is a strange place because because it is private, which means nothing, nothing that happens in there theoretically should be, should be broadcast.

that's not necessarily a good thing.

.

No.

Yeah, I get you.

But we are where we are, and one of these days somebody will, maybe, well maybe me, maybe somebody else will design a system that actually fits solving the problem better than the current one does.

Yes, it's to be hoped, it's to be hoped.

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you so much, Daniel, and we're going to talk about children and we've got another one that's about fathers in court, so I'm looking forward to those.

I look forward to speaking to you again, Heather.

It's been a delight as always.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of revolutionise your love life.

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