===TRANSCRIPT START=== Astonishing Legends Network.

Disclaimer, this episode includes the usual amount of adult language and graphic discussions you've come to expect around here. But in the event it becomes an unusual amount, expect another call from me.

Hey everybody, welcome back to Scared All The Time. I'm Chris Cullari.

And I'm, I almost said Chris Cullari. What a day this has been. I'm Ed Voccola.

And as Halloween closes in this year, we've got a special spooky treat for your ears to snack on. As long time listeners know, we sometimes worry this show is cursed. Ever since we covered Sudden Death and Ed almost died a sudden death just hours after we finished recording, there has been a troubling pattern of topics coming to life days after we cover them. From tornadoes, to amusement park accidents, to fires, to bridge collapses, to brain eating amoebas, we sometimes worry about the death and destruction that we might be unwittingly unleashing on our world. But other than fears that we have about our show being cursed, Ed and I don't really know anything about curses. How would we have been cursed? What would it take? Who would do such a thing? And those questions sent me down a dark rabbit hole of menace and magic that is as entertaining and interesting as it is horrifying. Today, we're digging into everything from the evil eye and curse tablets to the curse of the mummy's tomb to the ancient practice of getting boned, which is not what you think it is. So be careful what you wish for. We're getting cursed.

What are we scared? When are we? All the time. Now it is time for.

Time for Scared All The Time. Hey everybody, welcome back to our very cursed curses episode. Ed, I wanna say you've been dealing with some technical issues since we, during, before, and after we recorded this episode.

I was about to say, you almost said after. I was like, yeah, the whole time. But yes, after in particular has been. It makes me feel like a young podcaster again. Like back when like we didn't know what the fuck we were doing and everything was a nightmare. Yeah, I was pushed back into that like zero comfort zone when everything we got was just broken and I had to find workarounds for all of it.

There's always something new to learn in the wonderful world of podcasting. But folks, we've got a really good Halloween episode for you today. We have an incredible guest in Sarah Potter. Before we get to the meat of the matter, quick reminder, if you aren't signed up for the Patreon, head over to www.patreon.com/scared all the time.

Just slash, just slash.

Slash scared all the time to select a tier and join the fun that we've got going on over there. Every dollar from the Patreon goes directly into helping build this show and helping pay for all the tactical stuff that we need in the back end and the research and all that. So thank you guys so much who are already signed up. And I hope if you aren't, you go over there and see what we've got. We also want to hit a couple of five star reviews. You know it, you love it. If you leave a five star review, we will eventually read it on the show. Someday we will read every single one of these. Ed, we've got two good five star reviews lined up for today. Which one would you like to start with?

I never learned to read, so I'll take the one on the left. All right. So the one on the left is from Tayakaya. Tayakaya. Subject, scared but make it fun. Which kind of sounds like they're mad. That doesn't say like that we make it fun. I can see them just yelling this at us. I'm scared, but make it fun already. Anyway, don't know why I read it immediately. Maybe because it's in bold. I read it as they're mad at us.

Maybe because you think everyone's mad at you all the time.

That's true. We're going to have an episode, at least the New Fear Unlocked, about my psychosis. Anyway, moving on to the body of this hopefully not angry review. I've been on the Scared All The Time bandwagon since day one. By the third episode, it had already claimed the title of my top favorite podcast. Wow. Wow. I'd like to check in with them now.

Not mad at you. This person is not mad at you, Ed.

They're not mad at us, guys. I'm already lost where I was. Okay. Ed and Chris are an absolute riot, M-Dash. Their humor is unmatched, even while tackling the most spine-chilling and interesting topics. Whether you're a horror fan, someone who Googles what does flesh-eating cuts look like, or just looking for some entertainment with a spooky twist, Scared All The Time is a must-listen. Five stars all the way! Exclamation point, exclamation point. So yeah, thanks, Tayekaya.

Incredible.

That's how we feel about most stuff. Wonder what the third episode was that sealed the deal.

Since day one in the third episode, so that probably would have been, we did Hat Man.

Boobie Trapped, Halloween Candy.

And then Talking to the Dead, I think was number three. So probably Talking to the Dead.

Yeah, I don't know when Abandoned Towns was. Abandoned Towns should have been number three in the way we recorded it. Anyway, thanks, that's a great review.

This next review is from Isabel Lindsay. Five stars, the big one, more like the big fun. Hey.

Oh shit, I'm loving this already.

I've been listening since their first episode dropped on the Astonishing Legends feed, and Scared All The Time has followed me through the craziness of the last year, and will hopefully continue to follow me for the next 40 to 50. Oh my god.

One years?

40 to 50 years. We've got another 40 or 50 days of this show left. A few days, I think.

Based on the first sentence, it's been at least a year since we've saw this. So, I don't know, we're real behind on, I don't know how late we'll be on year 40.

Unless she says, the big one hits before then. Hopefully, I'll be listening to the Hoes Boys when that overpass collapses and buries me under the rubble. And if they don't talk about Courage the Cowardly Dog in the Snuff Film episode, an opportunity will have been missed. Oh, wait, what?

Are you aware of whatever they're referencing?

I'm not. I actually have not watched that much Courage the Cowardly Dog.

No, we're a little too old, yeah.

So yeah, it was a little after my time watching cartoons. So I have not gone back and watched it. I assume Courage the Cowardly Dog executes his owners in some sort of a sexual snuff film escapade. So I'll put that on the list. But yeah, the snuff film episode is coming someday. I've got all the research. I'm on the government list. I just need to turn it into a show.

Yeah, if you're still listening to the show, Isabel or Lindsay, let us know what you're talking about.

And then let's just do one more here. We've got Five Stars Makes Me Giggle. There is a lot more history on the topics than I was expecting, which I really appreciate. Hey, there's always a lot more history on the topics than I'm expecting, too, so that's why it's a very research-heavy show. Ed and Chris are unapologetically themselves, and it just makes me giggle. Very interesting and fun podcast. Two thumbs up from CD. So thanks, CD. All right, guys, with that, I hope you have a great Halloween, and I hope you enjoy this podcast about curses with Sarah Potter. All right, I admit I am a little worried about this one, and considering the build-up and the lead-up to getting everything working and sounding good on this episode, it feels a little cursed already. If the pattern of our shows hold, this episode could potentially unleash a curse of curses, which would be bad news for everyone.

Shit, that's on us.

And in an effort to avoid that fate, I thought it might be good to bring along someone more knowledgeable than us in the world of the supernatural and magic. And I knew just the woman I wanted to speak to, Sarah Potter, spellcaster, terror reader, and all-around awesome person. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Hello, I'm so happy to be here with you guys.

We're psyched you could join us. This is exciting for me because I've known Sarah for a few years now as my wife's friend and I guess a spiritual advisor. But I've never had a chance to really sit and talk with her about her practice. So we're all gonna learn a lot today and hopefully I won't ask too many stupid questions. Before we dive into curses, Sarah, I thought it would be good to start by talking about you. So first of all, to make sure I've got this right, is it accurate to call you a witch?

Yes, absolutely.

Okay, fantastic. So tell us a little bit about that. How did you get interested in witchcraft and when did you decide to become a practitioner of witchcraft? How did that happen for you?

So my origin story starts like many wonderful moments in New Jersey at the mall.

Sure.

And that's where I got my first tarot deck and I got my first witchcraft book. And have you guys seen The Craft?

Oh, of course. This show started, the first episodes of this show were edited at a location from the movie The Craft.

Oh, amazing.

Yeah, the old Adobe market.

Wow, steeped in witchcraft here. So, you know, I watched The Craft and was like, oh, that looks fun. And I watched Practical Magic. Have you guys seen that one?

Sure, with Sandra Bullock.

So good. I feel like.

And how how old were you when you were watching these? Was this like child childhood or teenage years or?

I was 12. I feel like 12 is a very magical age for children where we start to truly understand and or try to understand our sense of power. And and I really feel like just to like speak to like my own lived experience of girlhood, like that was such I feel like a transformative moment. It was a very challenging time. I feel like in in school and socially and like, and I think that I just think a lot of people can really relate to the challenges of that time in growing up. And witchcraft was in pop culture. Yeah, and and I think that like so many, I would say esoteric moments like can be started when we see it. Like however we find it, I think is good. Like I'm not precious about.

Yeah, you're not you're not you're not too cool for it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I only read hard sci fi.

Wonderful for you. But like, there's so many cool things out there. And being accessible, I think like or an entry point being accessible, I think is wonderful. And I did kind of in my younger like which days I wished I had this my fantasy of initiation of like my mom and her friends, like taking me to the river in the woods when I had my first period and like and like splashing naked in the water. But like, that's not my initiation. I found it at the mall, which is I have a lot of love and affection for now. And I was just like, I'm a witch. Like I was just thinking of that, like Farrouz a bulk, like floating on the ocean. I was like, yeah, like I want to do that. And and then when Sandra Bullock cast that love spell, I was like, I'm going to cast love spells. I was like, I got to figure it out. And you know, I grew up on the Jersey Shore. There weren't any witch shops, but Ed Barnes and Noble.

It's all you need.

And the aforementioned mall, right? You can go anywhere with books. So I actually like still have my first witch book. It's actually like one of my first witch books is right over here. Can I show it to you?

Yeah, go get it.

I just realized it's right here. You've got to see this. It's so good.

Yeah.

I hope it's Chris Cullari's world of wonder over the hell those little books you write are as kids.

Oh my gosh. It's kind of like that. It's Silver Raven Wolf.

Teen witch.

Silver Raven Wolf, total goddess. Look at that. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Yeah. Whatever gets you there. Yeah. The barrier for entry, it can be low if you want it to be, which is nice.

So now, did that book come with a matching tarot set or were those two separate?

No. I'm just going to be totally honest with you guys. I picked up my first tarot deck because I had a crush on this boy and I wanted to know if he liked me back. And so I was like, I feel like these cards are going to tell me what I need to know. Yeah. And I was like, anything to not ask him. Yeah. Why would I do that? Come on. When I can ask the cards and the spirits. And, you know, like I was, I had a Ouija board, like, but it's like you can only get so much with the Ouija board. So I just remember going into there was this really cool store at the mall called East Meets West. And it was like, you know, a lot of bonsai trees in there. Oh, yeah, of course. Candles shaped like wizards and like little dragon statues.

Those little metal balls that are like the relaxation balls. Yes.

Yeah. There's at least one moving waterfall in a frame, like lit up painting.

Yes. And all the tie dye you could ever want and tapestries for days. And then you had to go through, there was like a beaded curtain area in there. That was the back room. And you know, adult films. Well, you would think, I mean, they put the best stuff behind a beaded curtain. So, you know, I'm like, you like part of the curtains and walk through the portal. And there was just all of these tarot decks laid out, just so many of them. And I was just being like, seeing this, like the classic Rider Waite deck and Pamela Coleman Smith's illustration of The Magician is on this yellow box. And I was like, he is going to show me the answers. And you know what? I don't know what a tarot deck was then, like probably like 18 bucks, which was like an investment, but well worth it. And I grew up as a psychic child, which it was kind of like a little bit before that time in my life, I realized I was having a very different experience than other children. And I went to this girl's house and I wasn't allowed to come back because I had come there with my Ouija board and was talking to the spirits in the house. And that's when I started to realize like, oh, like I was having a different experience that made me feel like othered but also at the same time, like I did develop a kind of like fun relationship with these abilities. And tarot and witchcraft, I feel like helped me understand like, or give me some tools to work with this intense sensitivity, which was very challenging. Like throughout my life, I had kind of a tumultuous relationship with my abilities. Like I wish I could say that I was just like, I loved it and accepted it, but like I was really trying to push this away and seek out this fantasy of like whatever I was calling normal. And that didn't work so well, but I tried. And, but it was like a good, it was a good time to find Tarot and Witchcraft because it was available. And in the back of my other Silver Raven Wolf witch book, she mentioned newsletters that you could send away for. So you'd put like a dollar in an envelope and send it to the PO box or someone's house. And I'd get witch newsletters. And then there was an AOL chat room that you could go in on Sundays. And I would just go in there and like ask my witch questions. And everyone was really kind and supportive and helpful.

And AOL chat rooms were the best.

Right? I know. Who knows who we were talking to in there?

Like, I don't know. Yeah. It's best not to think about it.

Right.

You know, they were helpful. That's the important part.

Exactly. Exactly. And like, I, you know, I like to like thank the universe for them and like express my gratitude because they were so kind to to a kid. Because like there was like a crystal show store like 30 minutes away. That's how my mom would take me to. I'd ask her to take me in like they weren't nice there.

Like, no, no.

It's like, also kind of like now.

They weren't asking ASL there.

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And, but I do feel like there is something I kind of love about like a grumpy old witch store where I go in and like no one talks to me.

Well, you've, because you know why? Because you feel like they have secrets. You feel like there's something, you know, if people are super forthcoming, I feel like it's probably similar about, I mean, these are, you know, whether it's just like show magic or even like pro wrestling, which I'm a big fan of, there's a kind of a, you have to be like kind of read in to how it really works. And some people really don't want to open those curtains. And I think it makes it, especially for a younger person, it's even more enticing because it's like, well, what do you know that I don't? You know?

Absolutely. I went, it was so funny. I went into like one of the first witch shops I ever went into. I went back there a few years ago and I collect like vintage occult books and they had this one that like I really wanted and it was a great price. And I got that book and I got another book. And you know, the guy like was not helping me at all, which like I actually like really respected and there was something like really like enjoyable and I felt like I had time traveled a bit. And then I remember he like looked at the books I chose and he's like, looked at me and it's like, you really know your stuff.

Oh.

I was like, ooh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so you got into magic because you wanted you got into tarot, you want to know if a boy liked you, which is the same reason I think, well, I guess Ed and I, we didn't really pick up guitars, but I feel like kids get into stuff to try to like figure out if people like them. Did it work? Did it work?

Oh, my God, Chris, no one's ever asked me that. I mean, I have to be honest, I don't even know what boy I was thinking of.

Right, right, right, right.

But yeah, I think I was giving myself readings, and my friend's mom was a tarot reader, so she taught us how to read cards. Because I didn't have any other witch friends other than the AOL chat room. So what do you do? You get your friends into what you're into. So I was like, be a witch with me, and she's like, okay. And so I will say, I did get information, but the cards were usually trying to tell me other things. I was like, no, I don't want to hear about that. I want to hear about this boy.

Right.

But I don't even-

Trying to tell you the secrets of the universe, and you're like, yes, but does Johnny know where I am after sixth period? That's all I care about.

Yeah.

Right. I know.

So do you remember if there was a certain point then, was there a spell or reading where you really went like, oh, where it was like, oh, now this shit is working? Was there that moment or-

Oh, yeah. So I started casting spells, and they were little ones at first, just to do as little homework as possible, but get the best grades I could. Or just even those silly little things that matter, and just getting those results or really playing with divination in the sense of prediction, and those things coming true and be like, oh my God, wow, it happened. I did cast a love spell that was really inspired by Practical Magic, and it came true 20 years later, and that was pretty mind-blowing.

You snail mailed that, sure.

And I know, hey, the universe doesn't know time in the same way we do here in the human realm, but it's exciting to see your energetic impact and to see things happen. And I just remember giving my friend a reading, and then everything I said that would happen, happened a few days later, and just like, it was the greatest thrill.

Yeah. And now you do that professionally, right?

Yeah, and it's still the greatest thrill.

Yeah, I bet. I mean, you're tapping into the universe and helping people wrestle with their hopes and dreams and fears and giving them a little insight into things that they might not have insight to themselves. And it seems like a great gig. It seems like a very fulfilling job. It is.

I really see it as the greatest honor because sometimes I have to hold, sometimes I get to hold hope for other people. And it takes a lot of trust to really, I feel like, know what I'm seeing and feeling, especially when the other person can't see it or feel it yet. And even like the logical part of me is like questioning it too sometimes, but just trusting that feeling and holding that hope and encouraging that hope because I feel like we lose hope, things get really dismal and we must always have hope. And it's like intense work and, you know, I can do like a really like move through some very powerful energy with someone. And then I have to like actually like lie down and physically rest.

But that's what Ed has to do after this podcast, usually too.

Oh, I'm sure.

We're both sensitive people. We're two, you know what I mean?

Well, I understand.

The only thing more sensitive than me is Sarah. And the only thing more sensitive than her, intensely so, is her microphone. So, if anyone hears construction throughout this whole episode, just know that we're not conjuring that.

That is real. Yeah. And then, Sarah, before we pivot into curses, you have a book coming out soon, right? Tell us a little bit about that.

I do. It's called Sober Magic. And through writing this book, I realized that it's wonderful to be sensitive. I always thought that being highly sensitive was my detriment or my downfall. And it's actually, I think, my greatest gift that I can offer to the universe and to everyone else. And this world isn't really designed for highly sensitive people. But there's nothing wrong with that. And my goal through this book is to offer tools and support for those of us who feel a lot. And I write about my first year of being sober and how I used tarot and witchcraft to support that my recovery journey. And I look at the 12 steps through the lens of tarot and ritual. And it was so funny, like laying out, you know, tarot tells the story of the fool's journey. And when I laid out the cards to tell that story and place them alongside the 12 steps, I was like, how hasn't this been done yet? Like, this is the same story. And recovery is kind of a fool's journey. And I'm just so excited. I got inspired, it'll be like three years ago when the book comes out. And it's just my hope is to offer another voice around sobriety. And if you're questioning your relationship with substances or numbing out, just to have an opportunity to consider and reflect and navigate being sensitive and feeling in a world that isn't always supportive of that. So you can feel empowered to move through the world as that sensitive being.

Cool, definitely. Right on. And when's that coming out? Coming out soon?

Comes out December 2nd, 2025 through Running Press Books.

Oh, right on.

Yeah. Just in time for Christmas.

That's right.

Put that on the stocking stuffer list. I was going to say something and now I completely forgot it, which is fine because we got the important thing out, which is when the book is coming out. And that kind of, I think, is a good point to transition into the fear of the week because, even though I think when Ed and I started this show, we didn't really think about, we knew that Ed was afraid of everything.

I'm sorry, you froze, Chris. Chris, you're frozen. You're in CINO, man. Your internet connection is pretty fucking sensitive right now.

That's what I, yeah, that's what I just said.

We hear you again now. Can you hear us?

I can hear you. I can hear you.

Okay, cool.

What I was gonna say is...

Is this week's fear not getting a copy of her book before it sells out?

Yes, that's the topic of the, that's the first fear that we're covering this week. And then we're technically covering a second fear, which is curses, which Ed and I, like I said earlier, feel like this show is sometimes cursed. I know Ed sometimes has the feeling that cursed things have been happening to him in the past.

Yeah, well, you've seen my keychain. I got like, I got that Molokyo on my keychain, bro.

Yeah. Part of the reason I wanted to do this is because, like I said, we don't really know anything about curses. And Sarah, I think that's where you can be a very valuable support on this episode. What is your experience with curses and how would you define one?

So everything is energy. And I feel like when we're talking about casting spells or in this case, casting a curse, it's sending energy with the desired intention, and it's working with elements of the universe to create this desired effect. And so when we're cursing, we're sending this kind of malicious energy towards someone. And to me, about being a witch, I'm not here to tell you what's good and what's bad. It's up to you, I think, to define your own moral compass and values. And when people want to do intense magic, I will give my insight as to whether or not I think that's the appropriate route. But at the end of the day, people are going to do what they're going to do, and I'm not the keeper of that. And I feel like everything is connected. So what we put out is coming back. And I also think that there is like a very, there are very understandable and valid reasons why someone might be sending a curse out there. And I'm not saying on this show, I can't imagine you two are lovely. Why would anyone curse the show?

That's what we're trying to figure out.

Right. I mean, I, and I do also, I do believe that if you think you're cursed, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then everything starts telling you and showing you that you are cursed. So I think it's very important to value and honor your energy and your power and how strong you are. And just how could anything get in here and curse you? You know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's actually later in the episode, we're going to get into some cases where that the belief that one has been cursed has caused as many problems as any kind of actual curse might. Curses have been around a long time. One of the things, one of the ways I wanted to dive into my curse research was by trying to see if I could track down what we know of as the oldest curse or what the first curse ever was. And it's interesting because when it comes to nailing that down, our knowledge is somewhat limited. Most of the curses we know about, we know about because they were written down or involve some kind of inscription. But given how ancient I think the human belief in magic and demons and gods and the supernatural is, I suspect that there's probably a lot of curses that only existed in the oral tradition and maybe were never really written down in a way that anybody would ever know about. But the earliest one that I could find the history of, or written history of, is that of the Evil Eye. It has a history that traces back thousands and thousands of years. And a lot of people are familiar with the Evil Eye today because of that bright blue jewelry with the eye symbol. Ed, do you know what I'm talking about?

I mean, I know the Eye of Agamemnon, whatever his name is, from Marvel Comics. But Comic Steve's not here to pronounce it correctly for me. But that's not the same at all.

You'd recognize this symbol, I think. It's everywhere from crystal shops to high-end boutiques. And even, I think, Kim Kardashian or GD.

Oh, okay. Yeah, there's a, we have friends with, I just Googled it. We have friends with this hanging on their walls in their houses and apartments and stuff.

It has its own emoji.

Yeah, it does. It does. Yeah.

All right, well, I didn't know it had a name. I certainly didn't think it had a name so mean sounding.

Yeah, well, the amulet itself is called a nazar. According to an article I found on bbc.com, to understand the origins of the evil eye, one must first understand the distinction between the amulet and the evil eye itself. Though often dubbed the evil eye, the ocular amulet is actually the charm meant to ward off the true evil eye, which is a curse transmitted through a malicious glare, usually inspired by envy. Though the amulet, often referred to as a nazar, has existed in various permutations for thousands of years, the curse which it repels is far older and much more difficult to trace. I always thought of the evil eye in a very kind of vague sense, I guess, is sort of like a dirty look you'd get from, you know, like an old woman, if you swear in front of her or something. And someone would just be like, oh, she gave you the evil eye or whatever. But it's much more specific than that. Historically, the evil eye is the idea that if you achieve great success, you'll attract the envy of others or their eye, so to speak. That envy, in turn, manifests itself as a curse that will undo their good fortune. This concept is captured really well in the ancient Greek romance, Atheopica, in which Heliodorus of Amyssa writes, when anyone looks at what is excellent with an envious eye, he fills the surrounding atmosphere with a pernicious quality and transmits his own envenomed exhalations into whatever is nearest to him.

Whoa, this person would not handle social media well. If anything, it's evil-eyed, incarnate, like Instagram and anything where you're putting up your highlight reel to the rest of the world.

Yeah, actually, that's any kind of wicked magic or evil intention that involves envy. Sarah, I don't know if maybe you've run into this in your practice, but Ed brings up a really good point, I think, that it seems like social media would be making those darker elements worse than ever.

Oh, absolutely. That's why I think it's so important to maintain energetic cleansing, to protect our energy. And I protect my social media feed as well and cleanse the energy around that. I wear an evil-eye bracelet all the time. My mom gifted me an evil-eye when I was a kid. And she always has me wear one. And I think that it's... I understand that some people don't believe in the depth of energetics in the same way I do, but I do think it's hard to deny something like the energy of social media. And I like how you said that constant highlight reel and the assumptions or expectations that are placed upon others due to the perspective we gain and the story that's being shown. And jealousy is a natural human emotion like any of them. So I think that we're living in a social media world and doing what you can to protect your energy, I think, is an act of love for yourself.

Yeah, it is. And I think it's something that everyone in the world has to deal with this. Because whether you are French and you have the Mouveu, or you're German and you speak of the Beaux-et-Blic or Arabic, they have the Ayin Hassad, the Mal de Ojo in Spanish, or the Droghshul in Gaelic. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. Everybody all around the world has known about these eye curses.

You didn't want to bring up our people?

What's the Italian one?

It's the Malocchio. It's on my keychain.

Yeah, there you go.

Which I didn't know. It doesn't have an eyeball, though. It's like a...

Well, yeah, but the little hand has the eye in the middle of it. That's what it's for.

Oh, is it?

And these eye curses, though, they aren't always as simple as the traditional envy based kind of curse. According to the BBC again, quote, from the petrifying gaze of Greek gorgons to Irish folk tales of men able to bewitch horses with a single stare, the idea of the evil eye is so deeply embedded in culture that in spite of its potentially pagan connotations, it even finds a place within religious texts, including the Bible and the Quran.

Sorry, I'm pausing real fast. Interesting that the skill they had was to stop the wild horse with a stare?

Stop a horse with a stare.

Because it's funny that that's a metric and a benchmark we're using. Like a horse whisperer is common knowledge, common vernacular. And then this, it's like a horsepower for your car. It just seems like we were running a lot of things against horses at this point.

It's all we had to measure against for a long time.

Yeah, that's true.

I think horse staring probably is a more ancient practice than horse whispering.

Yeah, and horses came here. America didn't even have horses, right?

No, correct.

So yeah, we were real late to the game. I don't know what they were measuring against before they got here, but.

According to the BBC, belief in the evil eye has transcended superstition with a number of ancient celebrated thinkers exploring it as a scientific reality. The Greek philosopher Plutarch, who I think we've talked about on the show before for other reasons, but I can't remember what we brought up with Plutarch, but he claimed in Symposiacs that the human eye had the power of releasing invisible rays of energy that were in some cases potent enough to kill children or small animals.

Yeah, well, unless that animal is a horse, I'm not that impressed.

Plutarch also claimed that certain people possessed an even stronger ability to fascinate, citing groups of people to the south of the Black Sea as being uncannily proficient at bestowing the curse. More often than not, those said to be most adept at delivering the curse are blue-eyed, likely due to the fact that this is genetic rarity in the Mediterranean area. So I don't know if, Sarah, does the evil eye, is it more effective when someone with blue eyes tries to give it or is that is that outdated thinking at this point?

I have heard that before. I really do believe in every individual's self-possessed power and if the intention is there, our will is strong and I feel like curse is no no bounds. So anyone can place a curse on anyone.

That's terrifying, but good to know, good to know. With such widespread belief in the Evil Eye, it's no surprise that the people of these ancient civilizations sought out means to repel it. Spitting in the face of the afflicted was long thought to cancel an Evil Eye curse. Others swore by rubbing the cursed person with an umbilical cord or an egg. And the most popular cure, of course, is to carry the Nazar amulets that we still know today, which, given the alternatives, I can see why. I can see why those have become the best way. Ed, I want you to pull this image up real quick here. I'm going to put this in the chat. So this is an image of one of the earliest versions of an eye amulet that dates back to 3300 BC. This amulet is in the form of an abstract alabaster idol with incised eyes and was excavated in Tel Brach, one of the oldest cities of Mesopotamia, which is modern day Syria. As you can tell by looking at this, they look very, very different back then than they do now with the blue amulets that we're familiar with.

Yeah, Sarah, are you able to see this?

Yeah, this is amazing.

Yeah.

Okay, yeah, I'm seeing Wally standing in front of ET.

Oh, I see that. I can see that, totally.

This is what an evil eye amulet would have looked like 3300 BC, so more than 5000 years ago. The blue ones that we're used to these days started appearing in the Mediterranean around 1500 BC. The glass beads of the Aegean islands in Asia Minor were directly dependent upon improvements in glass production. As for the color blue, it definitely first comes from Egyptian glazed mud, which contains a high percentage of oxides, and the copper and cobalt give the blue color when baked. So when they were baking those, they would become blue just by nature of the chemicals in them. Then that became popular, and the blue evil eye beads underwent a widespread circulation throughout the Mediterranean, being used by the Phoenicians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, and perhaps most famously, the Ottomans. Though their usage was most concentrated in the Mediterranean and Levant, means of trade and expansion of empires sent the blue beads across all the different corners of the globe. So, Ed, I saw you make a phase when I said most popularly used by the Ottomans. I also would not have...

No, no, that wasn't the stink eye. I wasn't giving the evil eye to the Ottomans.

Okay.

I just wanted to be trying to hear what you were saying, seeing if you were going to come back.

Okay.

Sarah just disappeared for a second. She's back.

She's back.

We should never have brought up this topic.

I know. But, hey, you know what? The construction stopped. The construction stopped right when they said it would.

Yeah.

Exactly.

They probably- Or put a curse. Yeah, exactly. I'm about to say, it should curse them.

The blades flew off their saws and their hammers all snapped in half.

Yeah. Unfortunately, energy has to go somewhere, so they flew out the window and there's like four Final Destination-style deaths outside for hopefully bad people.

We have a show to record here.

Yeah. Another popular form of ancient curse, and I think this is maybe less popular today, although something like Death Note, I feel like, is kind of similar. But another popular form of ancient curse is the curse tablet, which I guess is basically the Twitter of ancient history. According to howstuffworks.com, curse tablets or deficciones essentially did what the name implies. They were objects usually from ancient Greece and Rome, upon which somebody wrote a curse. All sorts of objects, from shards of pottery to scraps of papyrus to graves, could be turned into curse tablets. There's one really cool one that was written on a lamp, notes Stuart McKee, a scholar of Roman history at Durham University of the UK. But the most common curse tablets, by far, were written on thin scraps of lead, which I feel like would have led to a lot of deaths that people might have thought were curses, but really was lead poisoning, because handling that much lead is not good for you. Lead is a byproduct of silver mining, which was a major source of wealth in ancient Greek and Rome, in ancient Greece and Rome. And there was a lot of extra lead lying around at the time. The Romans also would use lead as a cosmetic or, unfortunately, to line their drinking vessels and pipes, which again, not a good idea.

I mean, I think we still have, like every place we're recording from right now probably has like lead pipes in it still, so.

Yeah.

People were using lead for, lead is a miracle, a miracle metal.

A miracle and a curse. They also used this lead to inscribe messages, especially ones to the gods.

In California, it's just that message we always see everywhere that's like, this involves something that could be harmful for pregnant women or whatever. Like, you know what I'm talking about?

This building will expose you to the harmful thing.

Exactly. Was that prop or something? What the heck is that prop? I don't know. In New York, I don't think they have it. But everywhere in California, if you go to pick up an apple, there'd be a sticker on it. It's like, this apple might be harmful for pregnant ladies. There's cancer causing chemicals and it's just like everything you walk past and see in California has it. It's very funny to me.

But they would use lead to inscribe messages, especially to the gods. Scholars think that the choice of lead as a writing material was part practical, because lead is soft and easy to mark, but also part aesthetic. Quote, you get this sort of silvery fluid looking line against the oxidized surface of the metal, says Britta Ager, a classicist at Arizona State University. It just looks magical. When they were popular, they were ubiquitous. Quote, what we can see is that these seem to cut across all social classes and situations, says Ager. Wealthy politicians would sometimes curse their political rivals or the opposing party in a legal battle. Working class folks would curse thieves, murderers, their crushes, or the chariot racing team that they wanted to lose. There are even records of enslaved people using curses, which I feel like would have happened a lot.

I'd say every day. If I was in that position, 95% of my day would be cursing.

The wealthy and educated could handwrite their own curses if they so chose, but many folks relied on a third party for their cursing needs. If you weren't literate enough to write one of these, you could go to a professional who would do it for you, Ager says. These local magicians acted kind of like contract attorneys, drifting up curse templates for their clients and letting them fill in the blanks. Archaeologists have even found curse tablets where the name of the person being cursed was slightly too long to fit in the blank, and the letters are all smooshed together. As a result, of course, where there are curses, there are counter curses. There was something like a magical arms race, says one scholar. Some curse tablets detailed protective measures in case the cursed person discovered the spell and tried to retaliate, and other curse tablets even included clauses to ensure the curse circumvented popular protective measures. So you'd have a curse tablet that had like a whole bunch of rules and then rules about if somebody else knew different rules to try to counter your curse.

Yeah, no take backs.

Yeah, it was basically like a no take backs kind of situation. I thought it would be fun to share with you guys a couple of my favorite curse tablets that I found in my research.

OK, the first is it OK to read these aloud or is it going to be like an evil dead situation?

I think these people are all long gone, so I think I don't think these curses can necessarily affect anyone else. These were all directed at very specific people. So I think I think we're OK. The first curse tablet that I thought was a real standout says, quote, Tassita or Taqita, T-A-C-I-T-A. Tassita, hereby accursed, is labeled old, like putrid gore. What? According to the blog I found this curse on. Now, again, so this was a curse tablet that was unearthed from an archaeological dig site somewhere, and apparently the piece, the thin little piece of lead that this curse was written on, they found the curse written backwards, right to left, rather than left to right, and some of the letters are also upside down or sideways. The tablet was also pierced by at least four, probably five nails, which sounds pretty bad. And there are several smaller holes, which apparently held lead wire, some of which survived. And then on top of all of that, the petitioner deposited this curse into a grave with the intent that the spirit of the dead person would deliver it, deliver to it some infernal power who would then set about punishing Tacita. So somebody had a real problem with this person. With Tacita? Yeah. According to the blog, we don't know the exact motive that inspired this particular curse. And Sarah, this, tell me if this tracks for you. The physical manipulation of the object was key to the ritual. In this case, the repeated driving of nails and wire into the already inscribed tablet mirrored the intention of the words. And the word defixia, which the petitioner erroneously wrote as deficta, is translated here as to be cursed, literally meaning to fix down or attach firmly. And they think that that's what was the intent behind the mutilation of the tablet.

Absolutely. This is an energetic working. And so, you know, when we use tools and materials, it's to enhance that intention and that desired effect. So all of this, like these acts are part of achieving that desired effect. So, you know, it's, I think it's quite wonderful.

Wesser Talekio, whatever their name was.

The effect here, the person who wrote the historical blog on this believes that Tasita is to be driven down to the world of the dead by the combined force of the written words and the ritual actions. The blog concludes, I think that's one reason why the words were written in such a strange way, backwards and twisted around. By doing so, the writer has infused the written words with strange power, and through that power, attempted to make the curse inescapable. So, RIP, God bless to Sita. She had a rough time, maybe.

Yes.

But it also is interesting, if you don't look at it as the message has to be a fucking hedge maze to get through. But the idea that intention is the, like, the intention is the biggest part, it sounds like. So even if they squeezed a long name into a small box or, he was like, hey, you didn't misspell like 80% of this, did you? Like, that's really not the issue. Like, I don't think this sounds like this spell would work just as well because it's intention based versus you filled out this form super wrong.

Right. And sometimes also in in magic, you are protecting yourself. So you are hiding things or or encoding something. And there is a way to to, like, almost like take away the analytical aspect of the intention and infuse it more with that emotional part. So see, like, if you're doing something like a sigil, which is where we remove the actual, like, analytics of a word and just infuse it purely with the essence of what we're doing. Like, that's what this sounds like to me as well. And this kind of encryption, if you will, to a spell was what was going on here.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. It's like posting anonymously a little bit for your own protection.

Exactly.

Yeah. mentalfloss.com actually had a great collection of these curses, my favorite of which translates to, Entangle the nets of Vincenzo Zarezzo. May he be unable to chain bears. May he lose with every bear. May he be unable to kill a bear on Wednesday in any hour. Now, quickly make it happen.

Oh my God.

This curse targets a well-known, and guys, I want a biography on this man, but apparently a well-known bear fighting gladiator, Vincenzo Zarezzo, who fought and carthaged North Africa in the second century CE. I think we can assume the author of this curse probably had some money riding on whether or not Zarezzo captured the bear.

Yeah, and he usually got paid on Wednesdays.

Yeah. Ed, this next one, I think, strikes kind of close to home for you. This curse was found at the site of Rarannum in Western France and dates to the late third century CE. It's a curse on a comedian. It reads, quote, Socio must never do better than the mime Yomolopos. He must not be able to play the role of a married woman in a fit of drunkenness on a young horse. Which-

Oh, horses are back.

Horses are back. I know that role sounds oddly specific, but apparently in Roman comedic theater, the drunk woman on a horse was like a very common joke. So essentially the person making this curse hopes that Socio will bomb, I think is basically what they-

Yeah, but also it sounds like it's written by or constructed by a mime.

Well-

If you're worried about people doing better than you in the arts, fucking take a job where you can talk.

The first line is, Socio must never do better than the mime Yomolopos. So I think Yomolopos-

I think it's written by Yomolopos.

Yeah, I think so. He's writing in the third person.

I was like, yeah, I find it more interesting. Look, you're trying to make a silent film in 1945. What are you doing?

Can you imagine if you walked into the comedy cellar and there was a mime in the back just glowering and looking at all the comedians on stage and being like, God damn it, we need more respect.

Yeah, anyone could find success talking. Yeah, the real art is making believe you're in a box.

Another, so there's a few more here. Another tablet discovered near Frankfurt, Germany dates to the first century CE and reads quote, The human who stole Vario's cloak or his things, who deprived him of his property, may he be bereft of his mind and memory, be it a woman or those who deprive Vario of his property, may the worms, cancer and maggots penetrate his hands, head, feet, as well as his limbs and marrows.

Was this in Italy, this one?

This was discovered near Frankfurt, Germany.

Oh shit, I didn't know that. At least they go hard too, but.

They, this goes real hard. This is a curse for someone to be eaten by worms.

No, no, no, I think that-

For stealing a cloak.

I think everyone ends up eating by worms.

I think it's-

I just wanted to add one thing that they knew would happen.

I assume they meant before their time of being eaten by worms.

Well, I think I've talked about this in episodes previous, but you know, there's a saying in Italian, and I can't say it in Italian right now, but there's a saying that I talk about, which always makes me laugh. I only say it's a saying in the sense that more than one person has said it, but it's- I hate that person and I hope they die tonight, which the immediacy of it is so funny to me, but now it sounds like it comes from a lineage, like a long running history of like, these curses are way funnier in terms of like, the immediacy in which they want things to happen than even that saying.

Well, I think the best spells are specific. Like you want to be really clear with what you're intending to do. And you know, what I'm noticing with all of these curses is this is about, it sounds like coming back to center, like righting wrongs, like there feels like there's a lot of revenge or getting power or financial gain. And enacting one's will on a situation.

Yeah. Well, Sarah, you're right about specificity because this last one I wanted to cover is very specific about punishing someone and not just punishing them a little, punishing them a lot. It reads, Lady Goddess Syria, Sukona, punish, show your power. I register with the gods who ever took and stole the necklace. I register those who had any knowledge of it and those who took part in it. I register him, his head, his soul, the sinews of the one who stole the necklace and of those who know anything about it and who took part in it. I registered the genitals and private parts of the one who stole it, and of those who took and stole the necklace, the hands from head to feet, toenails of those who took the necklace, who had any knowledge of it, whether man or woman. This curse, I think, curses every single part of someone's body, basically. Wow.

What is register still used? Is that still a common thing to say, or is that just something that back then they would say?

What, to register with the gods?

Yeah, I mean, just an interesting verbiage is all I'm saying. That like it's- It's very official. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's very like, you can't say I missed that part of the form. You know?

And then the oldest of these curse tablets ever discovered is actually the subject of some debate, but I think it's really historically interesting and worth mentioning. So all these other curse tablets seem to be, you know, based in either a polytheistic religion or some kind of paganism. The Oldest Curse Tablet, if it holds up to scrutiny, is actually in a monotheistic tradition and thus makes it particularly interesting, but I think particularly controversial. In 2019, a team led by Dr. Scott Stripling of the Associates for Biblical Research was granted permission to resift and wet sift the dump piles of material from previous excavations of an archaeological site thought to be Joshua's Altar mentioned in the Bible. This led to the discovery of a small folded lead tablet approximately the size of a business card, which they identified as a defixio or a curse tablet. Since it was found in a dump pile of material that had been excavated from the Late Bronze Age, the team dated this object to around 3200 years old between 1400 and 1200 BC. A second team of scientists from the Institute of Theoretical and Applied Mechanics in Telk, Czech Republic, used x-ray tomographic scans and found text inscribed on the inside. This discovery was announced in 2022 and a peer-reviewed article followed in 2023. In it, they translated the proto-alphabetic inscription as this, You are cursed by the god Yahweh, cursed. You will die, cursed. Cursed, you will surely die. Cursed, you are by Yahweh, cursed. Now, maybe not the most eloquent curse that's ever been written. Now, Ed, I sent you a link. Bring up this image. This is an image of this curse tablet. And when you bring up this image, you will see why there is some debate around what, if anything, this tablet actually says.

I don't see anything written on it.

A lot of people don't. And that's kind of the debate here. I should note, even though the Associates for Biblical Research team has a name that sounds like they're trying to prove the earth is only 6,000 years old or something, they are legitimate, well-respected scientists. The debate centers around what markings on this tablet constitute writing, and if the tablet is as old as they believe it is. Now, there's a bunch of scientific papers that dive into which of the markings might be able to be connected with other markings that create some kind of attack.

I don't think anyone should have to... You put this into the world. I think it's on you to be like, and if you look here, you can see. Like, you can't do this, right? You can't just be like, I can't hand in fucking 100 blank pages to my manager and be like, and be like, no, no, this is the New Raiders of the Lost Ark. Like, trust me, it's up to you to find that story in here.

Yeah, they are trying to prove this, and I think the debate is going to go back and forth for a long time. It does seem like it's mostly wishful thinking on behalf of the people who discovered it, but I think the debate is interesting nonetheless.

When editing this episode, Ed noticed that Chris said they used x-ray scans to find text on the inside of the object, and the image they were looking at referred to the object as a folded lead tablet, so perhaps there was never anything for them to see there. But I guess if scientists are debating this thing, it wouldn't really matter if they could see it anyway.

But perhaps no curse looms larger in the public imagination than the curse of the mummy's tomb. The subject of countless books, movies, shows, comic books, you name it, the story traces back to the mysterious deaths of the men who opened King Tut's tomb. According to National Geographic, the mummy's curse first enjoyed worldwide acclaim after the 1922 discovery of King Tutankhamun's tomb in the Valley of Kings near Luxor, Egypt. When Howard Carter opened a small hole to peer inside the tomb at treasures hidden for 3000 years, he also unleashed a global passion for ancient Egypt. Tut's glittering treasures made great headlines, especially following the opening of the burial chamber on February 16, 1923, and so did sensationalistic accounts of the subsequent death of expedition's sponsor, Lord Canarvon. Now this guy was the main like financial backer behind the expedition that opened the tomb. And just a few weeks after they opened the tube, he accidentally tore open a mosquito bite while shaving and ended up dying of blood poisoning.

What do you think he was shaving? Where do you think the mosquito got him?

That's true. I was picturing his face, but maybe this man had a very specific grooming ritual that was too embarrassing to report. And the vagaries maybe let people read into it what they wanted to. Legend has it that when he died from blood poisoning, all the lights in his house or according to some accounts, all the lights in Cairo mysteriously went out. Although as another article I read said, at that time, electricity in Cairo was not the most consistent thing, so it wouldn't really be super unusual for the power to be going out perhaps many times a day. But the curse got a big, the idea of a curse being the thing that killed him, got a big boost from novelist Marie Corelli who wrote before his death, I cannot but think that some risks are run by breaking into the last rest of a king of Egypt whose tomb is specially and solemnly guarded and robbing him of possessions. This is why I ask, was it a mosquito bite that has so seriously infected Lord Carnarvon? And after he died, so the press picked that up when she wrote that while he was sick. So he got sick, she said, are we sure this is a mosquito bite? The press went crazy. They were like, this guy's dying from the mummy's curse. And after he died, Corelli spread a rumor that the phrase, death comes on wings to he who enters the tomb of a pharaoh, was carved on King Tut's tomb. In reality, lots of inscriptions were found in Tut's tomb, but none were curses. There were prayers of protection, quotes from the Book of the Dead, things like that, but nothing designed to threaten trespassers. Carnarvon was the only member of the original King Tut expedition who died early, but the deaths and tragedies of people tangentially associated with the tomb kept the story of the curse alive, as well as the universal film The Mummy, starring Boris Karloff, that came out in 1934. I found a catalog of the people supposedly cursed by this Mummy's Curse, and it's, you know, you can tie a lot of deaths theoretically to the opening of this tomb. It's a pretty extensive list. So first we have Aubrey Hebert, who was Lord Carnarvon's half-brother, who may have suffered from King Tut's Curse just by being related to the guy. He was born with a degenerative eye condition. It became totally blind later in life. A doctor suggested his rotten infected teeth were somehow interfering with his vision. So Herbert had every single tooth pulled from his head in an effort to regain his sight. It surprisingly did not work, and he died from sepsis as a result of the dental surgery just five months after the death of his cursed brother, Lord Carnarvon.

RIP, God bless.

RIP, God bless. We got a lot of RIP, God bless on this one.

Okay, well, we'll just hold your applause to the end type of thing, okay.

Oh, I froze again.

Yeah, you got mummy's curse, bro.

That's right.

Then there is Bruce Ingham. Howard Carter, the archaeologist who discovered the tomb, gave a paperweight to his friend Bruce as a gift. The paperweight appropriately or perhaps quite inappropriately consisted of a mummified hand wearing a bracelet that was supposedly inscribed in the phrase, cursed be he who moves my body.

Wait, this is a real hand?

This is a real hand apparently. To me, this one sounds the most like somebody who should have been cursed. I feel like if you're receiving body parts of the dead with kind of like winking curses strapped to their wrists, you're asking for it, but this guy didn't die. His house burned to the ground not long after receiving the hand, and when he tried to rebuild it, it was wiped out by a flood. So fuck him and fuck Helen Carter.

Adios, your house.

Adios, baby. Then there's George J. Gould, who was a wealthy American financier and railroad executive who visited the tomb of Tutankhamen in 1923 and fell sick almost immediately afterwards. He never really recovered and died of pneumonia a few months later, which reinforced the idea that even visiting the tomb was enough to pass on this curse. Then there's Hugh Evelyn White, a British archaeologist who visited King Tut's tomb and may have helped excavate the site. By 1924, after seeing death sweep over about two dozen of his fellow excavators, Evelyn White died by suicide, but not before writing, allegedly in his own blood, quote, I have succumbed to a curse which forces me to disappear.

Wow.

Yeah, which I will say, this one got me because it got me for a couple of reasons. It didn't get me believing, but I dug into this little deeper.

It got me thinking for sure. I got to like, when we're done here, I got to invest in some curses, specifically where I die.

I can help you with that.

Thank you. Yeah, I was going to talk to you off camera.

Absolutely.

I wanted to know, who were these two dozen people that he saw die? Because that seems like an awful lot of excavators who would be on record as dropping dead somewhere. And I could not find any kind of evidence that that many people died excavating the tomb. And I also think if he did write this message in his own blood, I have succumbed to a curse which forces me to disappear. I mean, honestly, kind of sounds like somebody struggling with very severe depression.

Which they didn't have until they went into King Tut's tomb.

Well, that's true. He was like, fuck, I'm never going to have this stuff. No, I mean, it's possible if he did write this, I could see a very depressed person using that language and the word curse kind of being the thing that everyone pulls from it without really... because Ed, like you said, at the time, people didn't talk about mental health very much. So it wouldn't be super unusual for that to maybe have been misinterpreted. Then there's Aaron Ember, an American Egyptologist who is friends with many of the people who were present when King Tut's tomb was opened, including Lord Carnarvon. Ember died in 1926 when his house in Baltimore burned down, less than an hour after he and his wife hosted a dinner party. He could have exited safely, but his wife encouraged him to save a manuscript he'd been working on while she fetched their son. Sadly, the whole family and the family's maid ended up dying in the fire, but the name of Ember's manuscript that she urged him to rescue was the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Then there's Richard Bethel. Richard Bethel was Lord Carnarvon's secretary and the first person behind Carter to enter the tomb. He died in 1929 under suspicious circumstances, though one modern historian has attributed his death not to the work of the mummy, but to the work of infamous occultist Alastair Crowley. Bethel was found smothered in his room at an elite London Gentleman's Club, and soon after, the Nottingham Evening Post mused, quote, the suggestion that the Honorable Richard Bethel has come under the curse was raised last year when there was a series of mysterious fires at his home where some of the priceless finds from Tootin Common's tomb were stored. But that's as close as anyone ever got to establishing a connection, but just his closeness to these artifacts was enough to kind of get his name added to the list. And then one more guy, Sir Archibald Douglas Reed. He didn't excavate, he didn't visit, he wasn't a backer. All he did was x-ray or he x-rayed King Tut, not the tomb, he x-rayed Tut himself before the mummy was handed over to museum authorities. He got sick the next day and was dead three days later.

Oh my God, this is extending to lab techs.

Yeah.

Powerful.

What about that person who made that video of like, this is what the person's vocal cords would sound like of that old mummy?

Yeah. It was an older mummy and they reconstructed the voice based on what the vocal cords were, but it was just a scream.

Yeah.

Like the audio that we got.

We should be checking in on that lab as well.

Yeah.

Probably, yeah.

They're hearing that voice in their sleep.

Yeah.

I think it's kind of ironic that the guy who opened and entered the tomb first, Howard Carter, he never had a mysterious or inexplicable illness, and his house never burned down. He died from lymphoma at the age of 64.

I mean, that's young.

Young-ish, but a lot of these people died within weeks of their encounter with the mummy, and he kept it kicking for a while.

Okay.

Maybe he protected his energy.

Yeah, he could have done something before he went in.

That's true. There's a lot of speculation as to if these deaths were connected, how they may have been connected. The late Egyptologist Dominic Montserrat conducted a comprehensive search and concluded that the idea of the mummy's curse began with what he called a, quote, strip tease in 19th century London. This I find super interesting, and I couldn't find a lot of information on this, but the idea is grotesque and kind of fascinating. Apparently, his work shows that the mummy's curse concept predates Carnivans' Tudud common discovery and his death by over 100 years. When Egypt began to open up to the West after the expedition of Napoleon, there was a fascination with mummies, and well-to-do people bought them to have them unwrapped as entertainment.

Oh, my God.

Which is the striptease that he is referring to.

Wow.

Is a incredibly disrespectful and horrible thing to do with a corpse, which Montserrat is pointing out, people knew at the time, many people at the time were really troubled by the fact that this was being done as entertainment and the idea that you might be cursed for doing that started to kick around in different circles at the time.

Go ahead, go ahead, Sarah.

No, no, go ahead.

I was just saying, this is what I mean by sometimes a curse is necessary. I think this is one of those times.

Yeah, I think it's important to get that information into the public consciousness as soon as possible, being like, you know what I mean? It's not worth the trouble just to keep someone from doing something so disrespectful.

Yeah. So that was popular in 19th century London. And again, the Tomb of King Tut wasn't opened until 1923.

Hey, was he ever unwrapped?

I don't think he was.

I think that's why. They've had a hundred years of people being like, don't do this by the time they opened him up.

As soon as people started talking about what might happen when you unwrap these mummies, people started writing fiction about curses associated with mummies.

Like steamy hot striptease fiction? Like fan fiction?

About the musk of the tomb? No, Bram Stoker in 1903 published a book called The Jewel of the Seven Stars in which modern-day archaeologists suffer from a mummy's curse. That was 20 years before King Tut's tomb was opened. Even this, I had no idea, but Louisa May Alcott, famous for Little Women, wrote a nearly unknown short story called Lost in a Period, period, Lost in a Pyramid or The Mummy's Curse.

I mean, I guess the other title could have been a chapter in Little Women.

Her mummy's curse story was published in 1869. By the time the King Tut curse caught on in the popular imagination, this stuff had been talked about for a long time. It wasn't like the King Tut curse invented the idea of the mummy's curse.

Yeah, but the King Tut curse has receipts. It's got like people dying, homes burning down, and that you can find in real newspapers.

Yes. So there is one other mummy that is rumored to have a body count. Jasmine Day, an Egyptologist who holds a doctorate in cultural anthropology, says that one mummy at the British Museum was even rumored to have been responsible for the sinking of the Titanic in 1912. British Museum curator Ernest Wallace Budge, which is an incredibly British name, received so many public inquiries regarding the allegedly cursed mummy at the museum that he was obliged to write a flyer debunking the rumors that could be distributed to members of the public. Despite this, some people sent money for the museum to purchase flowers to lay at the feet of the dead priestess to placate her soul. And the tale of the mummy that sank the Titanic continues to circulate on the Internet today. So I'm not, I was a little unclear as to why this mummy, like she wasn't on the Titanic, they weren't transporting her or anything. So I'm not quite sure what connection she had to the Titanic, but people were spooked. Interesting. People were spooked by it.

Wow. Yeah. Somebody had to get off their ass and write a flyer about it.

Yeah.

Wow. I was just thinking, like, I wonder what other tragic disasters have been caused by a mummy's curse.

It seems like a lot. And we know, I mean, there's the mummies we know about. And then there's, I'm sure, a lot of mummies that we don't know about that could be cursing folks.

The ones that were undressed and thrown into a dumpster in 1800s England.

That's what I'm saying.

There's curses connected. I didn't include this in the research for the show. But there's curses connected to Otzi the Iceman, who is the frozen ancient man who was found, I believe, like in the Alps or something. And they think he was murdered. They found like arrow wounds in his back or something. And he's become a famous mummy over the years. And there's apparently some curses connected to having removed him from his final resting place in the mountains.

I don't know. I think curses are bad. I think that... I don't know what the opposite of a curse is, I guess.

A blessing.

A blessing?

A blessing. I guess we all know it then. Jeez, excuse me. I do like the idea of somebody reaching out beyond the grave has been exciting for me, because it seems we have this incredibly small amount of time, even less if you enter a mummy's tomb, to spend this mortal coil or whatever. So it's nice to see that some of these are paying off, that some of these, you know, I'll get you even after I'm dead. If even one of those is true, then there's a lot of hope in that.

Hope for, let me just be clear, specifically revenge from beyond the grave.

I mean, revenge definitely gets the headlines, but maybe on your way out, you're like, and give a bunch of people good lives too. You know what I mean? I guess it's about intention, right?

So I see what you mean.

That is the idea that you can affect something after you die is exciting.

Having that impact and that, I think, sense of power.

Well, I'm glad that there is hope that we can affect the world after we pass on through blessings and hopefully not curses. But there is one last thing I want to end this episode with about the very real problem that can come with believing that you are cursed, whether or not that curse has any true supernatural power. This psychological effect is kind of what, I don't know if you guys watched Nathan Fielder's The Curse that came out last year. Yeah, that show, until the very end, kind of deals with the idea of what it might mean to be cursed and to wrestle with the feeling that you are cursed. But that, what's the word I'm looking for? That problem is something that has been documented throughout the world. One of the most compelling cases I found took place in Australia and involves an aboriginal curse known as bone pointing or, I am not making this up, getting boned.

Did you freeze at the most insane time? Yes, you did. Chris is gone.

Chris got boned.

Whoa. This is not for public consumption. They don't want this getting out. Oh, hello. Are you back?

I'm back.

You got boned, bro. You were gone.

I got boned.

The second you said it's called getting boned, you disappeared.

Really epic. Incredible. Incredible. Ed, our lives are about to go down the drain. Oh, shit, man.

Why did you drag me into this, man? I feel like that X-ray technician. I was just doing my job.

Well, I think that X-ray technician may have been doing his job without any safety protocols and died from radiation poisoning, is what I suspect happened there. Maybe. OK, so this getting boned, I'm reading here from rawdivinity.net, which is a hell of a name for a website writing about getting boned.

Wow.

Oh, my God. In 1953, a dying aborigine named Kinjika was flown from Arnhem Land in Australia's northern territory to a hospital in Darwin. Tests revealed he had not been poisoned, injured, nor was he suffering from any sort of injury. Yet the man was most definitely dying. After four days of agony spent in the hospital, Kinjika died on the 5th, and it was said he died of bone pointing.

Before we go into bone pointing any further, this reminds me, when I was working in Ghana, I was working with some young guys, Ghanaian guys, and they were talking about family members who were in the hospital, and that was the reason. Not bone pointing, but it was genuinely, they were like, no, my family fully believes that they are so-and-so in this other tribe or so-and-so in this other part of town has cursed them, and that what looks like pneumonia is actually the effects of that curse. And I think it's where we're about to go with this a little bit, but that's something I saw and heard in real time in 2012.

Yeah, I mean, this curse is one of the most drastic curses I read about in my research. It's really fucking intense, and it's way worse than going to the hospital with a bout of pneumonia.

Oh, no, I just wanted to bring a for instance into this.

I know, for sure, for sure.

One time I was somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I'm just saying-

I wasn't trying to one up bone curses or whatever.

You can't one up the bone curse, bro. Listen to this. Bone pointing is a method of execution used by the Aborigines. It is said to leave no trace and never fails to kill its victim. The bone used in this curse is made of human, kangaroo, emu, or even wood, which I think would disqualify you from a bone curse. But whatever.

But you're saying any of those bones could work.

Yeah, but wood's not a bone.

So I don't know why that would work. And George Washington's got a couple of wooden fucking mouth bones, right?

That's true.

I was going to ask, because the beginning of the way you would start that sentence sounds like you have to make a bone from all these animals, like make a new crazy bone.

Well, you sort of do. So the shape of the killing bone or Kundela varies from tribe to tribe. The lengths can be from six to nine inches. They look like a long needle. At the rounded end, a piece of hair is attached through the hole and glued into place with a gummy resin. Before it can be used, the Kundela is charged with a powerful psychic energy in a ritual that is kept secret from women and those who are not tribe members. To be effective, the ritual must be performed faultlessly. The bone is then given to the Curdacea, who are the tribe's ritual killers. These killers then go and hunt the condemned. The name, Curdacea, comes from the slippers they wear while on the hunt. The slippers are made of cockatoo or emu feathers and human hair, and they leave virtually no footprints. Also, they wear kangaroo hair, which is stuck to their bodies after they coat themselves in human blood, and they also don masks of emu feathers. They hunt in pairs of threes and will pursue their quarry for years, if necessary, never giving up until the person has been cursed. So, they sound visually horrifying in addition to the bones.

And sneaky as shit.

Yeah. Once the curse is set, there is no escape. According to a description I found on Biology Online, the man who discovers he is being boned by any enemy is indeed a pitiable sight. He stands aghast with his eyes staring at the treacherous pointer and with his hands lifted as though to ward off the lethal medium, which he imagines is pouring into his body. His cheeks blanch and his eyes become glassy and the expression of his face becomes horribly distorted. He attempts to shriek but usually the sound chokes in his throat and all that one might see is froth at his mouth. His body begins to tremble and the muscles twist involuntarily. He sways backwards and falls to the ground and after a short time appears to be in a swoon, but soon after rise as if in mortal agony and covers his face with his hands. He begins to moan after a while. He becomes very composed and crawls to his whirly, which must be an Australian word, a W-U-R-L-E-Y. From this time onward, he sickens and frets, refusing to eat and keeping aloof from the daily affairs of his tribe unless help is forthcoming in the shape of a counter charm administered by the hands of the Nangaree or medicine man, the condemned man may live for several days or even weeks, but he believes so strongly in the curse that has been uttered that he will surely die. It is said that the ritual loading of the Kundela creates a spear of thought, which pierces the victim when the bone is pointed at him. It's as if an actual spear has been thrust at him and death is certain. So, Kinjika's death is often cited in medical and anthropological literature as a classic case of what has become known. And I don't know, this does seem to be the term, I don't know if we use the word voodoo anymore, but it's been become known as voodoo death, or psychogenic death, which is a death caused not by physical injury, but the victim's overwhelming fear and belief in a curse. This phenomenon was famously analyzed by physiologist Walter B. Cannon, who in 1942 coined the term voodoo death for sudden deaths caused by intense fear or taboo breaking. In such cases reported as places as far flung as Australia, Africa, and Haiti, the victim's emotional shock triggers a lethal physiological collapse. Modern interpretations suggest that extreme fear and expectation of death can produce fatal physiological changes. Cannon and others hypothesized that terror activates the sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight stress response, to such a degree that it causes shock, surging adrenaline, falling blood pressures, arrhythmias, and organ failure due to prolonged stress. So essentially these curses scare a victim to death.

I mean, there's a lot going on here.

Stress is such a killer. To feel so helpless in a situation, like someone's doing this to you and there's nothing you can do. I mean, how terrifying being trapped in one's own mind.

Especially, I think, in cultures where you're dealing with a, you're in Manhattan, we're in Los Angeles. There's a wide, wide world out away from our friends and family. I think in some of these cultures where your friends and family are, you know, your town is maybe really all you have, when you are kind of cast out and have backs turned on you and there's a supernatural component to it, I think, you know, that lack of any kind of support is sort of part of what causes that stress and collapse into death. It's hopelessness.

Also, the bone itself is super interesting in that they show up, leave no footprints, but they show up and they point this bone at you. And it's almost like if everybody went to Harry Potter's like little dorm room and was like, can we say everything we hate about someone into your wand? And then can you point all of our gripes and griefs and trouble and problems with this person, basically like projected upon them so that they convulse with the overwhelming power of like spite. Yeah, essentially, because that's what it sounds like happens here, right? Like they don't throw the bone at them, they don't stab them with the bone. Like they just point the bone, which they've done some ritual on. And that person just takes it upon themselves to shut themselves down, like physically expire.

As they describe, it's a spear of thought.

Exactly, man. It reminds me a lot of how Ghost Rider, the comic book character, has like that stare he does at people that makes them see all the bad they've ever done.

Oh, Ghost Rider, I thought you said Ghost Rider, like the PBS show.

Me too.

Oh, the PBS, that would be a crazy episode of-

Ghost Rider has a deadly stare.

Yeah, you didn't see that episode?

A very special episode.

The boning episode. You did see the episode about boning on Arthur though, right?

Yes, yes.

Or when Mrs. Frizzle took the school bus into this ritual. No, she couldn't, there's no women allowed, they said, in this ritual.

Yeah, what the fuck is up with that? That's bullshit.

Too powerful.

Yeah, I think it's a power thing. All these patriarchal societies didn't want, they wanted to harness all the power probably. But yeah, pretty wild. It's scary. But it's scary, I don't know. I like the idea of it being like a magic wand of-

Hate?

Of like- Powerful. Yeah, I guess so.

So Ed is charmed by both the magic wand of hate and the idea that he could bless people after he dies. He's a man of-

Well, I guess it's just exciting.

Many sides.

It's exciting.

It is.

All right. I'm not- It is. I don't- It's exciting the idea that it's essentially Sarah's stock and trade, but just the idea that we have more power than we think we do is to me exciting.

We always do. It's so important to remember that.

Yeah. That's probably- It's getting dark where Sarah is, so that's-

I mean, it's a good score.

I know. I'm just disappeared into the ether.

That's probably a good note to end on. With that, Sarah, at the very end of every episode, the last thing we do is we discuss where this week's fear falls on our fear tier, which is our personal list of fears from one, being not scary at all to 10.

10, just being very scary.

Being very scary, and as Ed deemed it in our first episode, although I think his fears have changed, getting a bucket of poop and pee dumped on your head would be the worst thing he could imagine. So where does being cursed fall on the fear tier for you?

I mean, we're talking about this is like, this is my field of expertise, it's my profession. So I don't know, I'm going to give it a two.

That's kind of what I thought. And see, well, because not only is this Sarah's profession, but she travels in a world where she is keeping her energy clean, she's keeping on top of her shit. The idea that a curse is going to even penetrate any of that, I feel like is rather unlikely, nor are there any reasons to curse Sarah, she's wonderful. And we thank her very much for being our guest this week. I'll put my curse, my fear of curses, at about a five, because based on the technical problems we've had this episode, and the number of times we seem to have affected the world around us with horrible topics, I'm a little bit worried that that is still a thing. So I'm a five for curses. Ed, what about you?

I'm going seven. I'm super high.

Wow.

Because I've done none of the maintenance to protect myself in any way. I am just a car driving with zero oil changes in the world of clean energy. And I've got a bunch of extended family that I just know for a fact is right now cursing someone else around them. Or fucking sure and believing it. You know, we are we are a family that has that, you know, that like it's the new year, you're going to open the doors to both sides of your house, that the negative energy can leave and the positive energy can enter for the year. Like there's enough of that in our lives, like in my family and extended family where I'm like, there's no way they're not also bringing about negative change to. So I don't want to, I think I'm going to end up on someone's bad sides. I'm quitting at seven.

It sounds like what you need is to schedule a session with Sarah to work through some of this ad, because we don't want to lose you to strike a known as pasta pot or whatever the whatever the hell your family's got going on.

So listen up also everybody to send out positive, positive vibes my way, please.

So Sarah, before we say goodbye, where can people find you on the Internet and remind our audience one more time about your book and when it comes out?

So you can find me on all social media platforms at I am Sarah Potter, that's Sarah with an H. Instagram is my favorite and I'm also on Substack. And my book Sober Magic comes out through running press books on December 2nd, 2025.

Fantastic.

The only place you can't find Sarah right now is on the video feed of this episode where she is completely in the dark.

All right. Well, with that everybody, the show is Scared All The Time. I'm Chris Cullari.

And I'm still not Chris Cullari.

And we will see you next week. Bye-bye. Bye.

Bye-bye. Scared All The Time is co-produced by Chris Cullari and Ed Voccola.

Written by Chris Cullari.

Edited by Ed Voccola.

Additional support and keeper of sanity is Tess Fifle.

Our theme song is the track Scared by Perpetual Stew.

And Mr. Disclaimer is ****.

And just a reminder, you can now support the podcast on Patreon. You get all kinds of cool shit in return. Depending on the tier you choose, we'll be offering everything from ad-free episodes, producer credits, exclusive access and exclusive merch.

So go sign up for a Patreon at scaredallthetimepodcast.com.

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Tonight, we are in this together. Together. Together.

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