>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s, and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Jean, who is a millennial

and works as a freelance consultant. She's also

worked in banking and has a theology degree. We

talked about how it feels to be an adult as a

millennial. I found this conversation with Jean

really interesting because she spoke about how

being an adult hasn't turned out the way she was

expecting, but also about how churches adopt the

tensions between millennials and gendered. So,

Jean, what does being a millennial mean to you?

>> Jean: Well, it's my age group. Right. So I guess it's

somebody who's. I don't even know the ages.

Remember the. The boundaries now, but I think it's

26 to just under 40. Is it a 40? Yeah.

>> Julia: I can't remember the top age. Like, 1996 is like

the divide between millennials and Gen Z. Yeah.

>> Jean: So I. I don't see it much more than, strictly

speaking, the age group, but in terms of how the

world treats us or refers to us is different. And

I don't want to say it's any better or any worse

than any other generation, but there's a

difference. If I was Gen X, I'd probably have a

lot more to say because I think they've been

treated potentially worse than millennials. But,

yeah, I think I would say it's my age for the most

part.

>> Julia: Do you think they're saying I'm not old, but I'm

not young resonates with you at this point?

>> Jean: I think it's one of the weird things that happens.

And, you guys were talking about it briefly before

we started, that when you turn 30, everything

seems to change. And. And it's a really weird

experience because actually, two days ago you were

young. The next day you're old or, yeah, two days

later you're old. And people kind of say when

you're in your 30s, you're middle aged, but really

are, ah, you. And, especially as medical advances

go on, people are living a lot longer. And I still

think being in your 30s, you're still quite young.

I think there's even an argument to say you're not

really an adult until you hit 40. But, people have

children in their 30s. People, well, we were sold

that dream that you buy your house when you're in

your 30s. And so it's almost like an adult now.

But, I still think you're a young adult because

you still. Well, I've still made mistakes in my

30s, learned a lot that I think actually I

wouldn't have learned this in my 20s, I couldn't

have learned this in my 20s. But I'm going to need

these experiences as I grow older. And also

millennials look young.

>> Julia: And so is it all the good skincare that we're

doing?

>> Jean: Maybe. And actually sometimes that's even an

annoyance because I think some millennials look

young and are treated as though they're younger.

But millennials don't have that same, for one of a

better expression, boss attitude that Gen Z does.

So even though Gen Z might look young, they behave

more aggressively and more forward, I think, than

millennials tend to do because of our different,

constraints.

>> Julia: But I also wonder if that's like the ages that we

are, because I, I feel like when millennials were,

when we were teenagers, we were a bit more, I

think it is just being a teenager. Right. In some

ways. I'm not saying all Gen Z are teenagers still

because they're older now, but I feel like as you

get into your 30s, you start to settle in and

accept this is what life is, is now. And so then

you're less. Got that boss attitude.

>> Jean: I want to say yes, and I'm going to say no because

I feel partly because of social media and not

necessarily a good or a bad thing in, in this

conversation, social media has allowed Gen Z to

make money a lot earlier than millennials. And so

although teenagers could always make a lemonade

stand at the end of their road or know, mow the

lawn, you earn very little money from that. But

actually you could be 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and

earning £100,000 simply because you've posted a

few videos on YouTube. And so because of that, the

whole mindset, not just of you, but your whole

cohort of people, is different. It is More I can

do this, I can change the world. Whereas for us,

it's almost like you have to take this step, you

have to take the next step before you progress

forward. So I think that experience makes it

slightly different for us.

>> Julia: Yeah, that's so true. And I was just thinking,

when we were at similar age, we were told, like,

go to school, go to university, get a good job,

get married and then buy a house. Like, have

children. Like, that was how we were told to. That

was how you had to live your life. And like,

that's the right way to live your life. But when

you look now, as you said, like, there's 16, 17

year olds making a lot of money on YouTube,

Instagram and tick Tock, like buying their own

houses, buying their parents houses, like, it's a

very different way of living.

>> Jean: Yeah. And going to that. We, at least the

millennials are older, so late 30s. We kind of

grew up when the financial crash happened. And

when the financial crash happened, for us, it was

like, okay, things are going to, I mean, booms and

busts happen, it's going to be okay. But actually

10, almost 20 years later, actually, we haven't

been able to recover from that. But we've still

gone down that path of go to school, get a good

job, buy a house. A lot of us, myself included,

gone to very good schools, earned a lot of money,

but still haven't got a house. Whereas Gen Z,

they've kind of known from the beginning that this

pattern doesn't work. So mentally they've been

able to adjust and say, actually, maybe I

shouldn't go to university. Maybe I should try and

make money a lot sooner. Because there's another

path here. Because the traditional path doesn't

work. When I look at my older brothers and sisters

or my older uncles, that route hasn't worked for

them. Not only that, they also experienced Covid.

So they've also been aware of the fact that

anything can happen. You can't plan for

everything. And so their mind, even around money

and, and, life is, I would say, totally different

from millennials because of their just life

experiences.

>> Julia: So how do millennials adapt to this new living?

>> Jean: This is a good question. And it's something I'm

trying to work through myself. I think

Millennials, you know, it's easy for us to say,

woe is me, and say, we've been lied to, we were

sold this dream. Everybody's calling us lazy, but

we're not that lazy. Actually, a lot of us are

paying taxes, we've been paying taxes we're

supporting the system. The world owes us

something. But I think rather than taking that

approach, I think we need to recognise one, that

medical advances really do mean that most of us

still have more than half of our life to live. And

so we can actually change and adapt and take some

of the learnings from our younger, I call them

brothers and sisters, Gen Z, Gen Alpha folks, and

change the way we approach things and not be stuck

in a rut and see. Okay, so how can I, what kind of

side hustle can I do? How can I pivot if I don't

like my life? What can I do to make it better?

what one thing could I do today to change that?

>> Julia: So, talking of side hustles, firstly, what do you

mean by side hustles?

>> Jean: Oh, that's a good question. I mean, in this day

and age, I would describe it as an extra income

that isn't your main income. But many people have

multiple side hustles. Some are, ah, podcasting

and getting money from adverts on YouTube if

they're blessed enough to have a huge

listenership.

>> Julia: I, I should say that you're laughing because I was

making faces.

>> Jean: Yes.

>> Julia: About podcasts, to be fair.

>> Jean: And also I'm thinking about my own podcast. I have

a podcast as well. Some people are doing

consulting, consulting out there, marketing and

media expertise. Some people are selling, tops.

Like you can think of many different ways that you

can make money on.

>> Julia: The side, which is good because you're making

money. But life isn't all about making money. So

does that not lead people into like, burnout if

they're like working a full time job and then

they're doing like multiple side hustles or even

one side hustle?

>> Jean: Yeah, I, guess I'm not advocating work as hard as

you can because I believe in Sabbath and rest and

I believe there's also a place for trusting God.

But, but I think there's a way to work a bit

smarter, potentially. It could be like a hobby

that you use as a way of release. And there's a

fine line between burnout and I'm just doing this

because I like it and it brings in a little of

money. I know. I had a friend who used to do this

for photos. Photographs. Photography, sorry. She

used to take pictures of, her friends when they'd

given birth or at weddings and it got to a point

where she was like, no, I was doing this for fun.

I can make money from this, but it doesn't have to

overtake my life. So I think there is a fine line

that you can balance it.

>> Julia: I was just thinking about how the wedding

photographer at my brother's wedding, his side

hustle, was doing wedding photography. and he was

saying to us about how actually now it brings in

more income than his day to day job.

>> Jean: Yeah.

>> Julia: So his day to day job had actually kind of turned

into a side hustle, turn him a flip.

>> Jean: But that's interesting, right? Because the

question then becomes, why isn't he giving up one

or the other? And that's an interesting discussion

for many different people. some people would say,

oh, I need the money because maybe I want to buy a

house as an aim. But then I think to your point

about burnout, there is a place for us to step

back, especially coming from the Christian faith

and saying, right, I have, I'm okay, I don't need

to do this. The world would continue working on

this, what's it called, Rabbit. the rat race.

Yeah, yeah, sorry. Striving for stuff. But

actually there's a point in life when we are

supposed to step back and say, is this what the

will of God is? How can I use my newfound freedom

to benefit others?

>> Julia: My next question was going to be, how does God fit

into it all? First of all, into that like,

narrative of like, go to school, go to university,

get a job, get married, have kids, buy a house, et

cetera, in whatever order that comes in. But then

if people are now having to like, fit inside

hustles, how does like God fit into all of that

with all the busyness?

>> Jean: Yeah. So for me, I've been involved in the faith

and workspace. And the reason why I'm passionate

about it is because I grew up in a Church which

focused predominantly on evangelism. Now

evangelism is the whole point of the gospel,

right? We spread the news, the good news, and

people come to Christ. The question then becomes,

after I've given my life to Christ, what next? And

my belief, based on Romans, chapter eight, is that

our work as Christians is to partner with God on

what he's trying to do on the earth. And that

creation is waiting for us to do that work,

whatever that might be. And so for me, our, work

is helping or being the hands or feet of God,

bringing heaven how what things are on heaven on

earth. So in answer to your question, it is when

somebody is doing their digital marketing, when

somebody is a doctor, what they're actually doing

is using the gifts that God has given to bring

heaven on earth. And so our callings are not just

related to how many people have we told the good

news to? There's also a witness of my work is

excellent, my m work is good. I'm bringing glory

to God. I'm showing people like you can imagine

having conversations with people about your work

and they can be like, why do you work to this

standard? And this is because the Bible teaches

that I'm supposed to do everything unto the Lord.

So I think in everything that we're doing, God is

involved, God is moving through it. If we're able

to recognise and believe and accept and know that

we're partnering with God, our, work is actually

sacred and it means something. I think it's a game

changer. And I think that's what Christians, times

before, when we've seen great revivals before, we

hear about. You may have heard about the quiet

revival where, younger people are coming back to

Church But in revivals past, all of those

awakenings of the soul and the spirit were

accompanied by actual action, social action,

change in society. So I think the two are

together. It's a mistake to separate them out.

>> Julia: Yeah. And they're saying that the quiet revival is

coming from a younger generation, so Gen Z and Gen

Alpha. But it's because they've not known Church

in their lives previously. And now they're finding

something's missing and they're starting to turn

to Church which is a really good thing. But how do

you think that's impacting millennials?

>> Jean: Yeah, so there are a number of things, I think

about this. I also think, and it's not really

spoken about that often in the Church that there's

a group of unchurched millennials who are

beginning to ask themselves, is this it? I mean,

we spoke briefly about the sum of the millennials

who may feel, life has not gone the way they

wanted because of, life generally. But there's

also a group of millennials who are comfortable,

who have money, who have achieved what they want

in their careers. They're settled, whether it's

married or in committed relationships. And they're

asking themselves, is this it? Example of this is,

Stephen Bartlett's always talking about these

faith questions, what do we do? Is it all real?

And he claims to be an atheist. And for some

reason the Church hasn't woken up to these people

might not be coming into the doors of the Church

in the same way Gen Z are, but they're actually

aware that there's something missing. The second

is the millennials who have been in Church for a

long time. And they feel that for whatever reason,

they aren't really fulfilling their calling or

living, ah, up to what they heard God say to them

when they were younger, when they were teenagers.

Maybe it's because actually the people who were

going to hand over the Church to them are still

living, they're still active, and we want those

people to be still engaged in the Church And then

also you have the younger generation who are

coming up, and the older ones don't really know

how to connect to young people. So they're giving

the younger Gen Z people more opportunities and

using them a lot more. And then you've got this

group of millennials who, like, what about us? And

I feel there's also another group within that who

have been hurt by the Church and they still love

Jesus Christ, but they just think, I, I've done

with this now. And so we have this tension of

those people are just sitting on the sidelines and

they're not contributing as much as they. They

could, partly because of the hurt, but partly

because the Church has stopped talking to them.

>> Julia: I'm just gonna go back to that. Working with the

young people, I feel like that's always been in

place. And so when millennials were younger,

because we're still saying millennials, they were

given those responsibilities, but now that they're

not the youngest generation, they've been taken

away and passed on to the younger generation. But

there's nothing to, like, give the millennials in

the meantime, and they're just being left

drifting.

>> Jean: So I would say two things to that. I agree. when I

talk about this idea of millennials, what I'm not

entirely sure of is whether or not this is because

the Church generally speaking, doesn't know how to

deal with people in their 30s and 40s. And I think

boomers might have said the same thing back then,

and that that could be true. But I would say one

of the things that at least I know from my friends

and people, I engage with is there are things that

we were told, you can't do this because it's not

your time yet. You're too young. Gen Z are allowed

to do. I can give examples of, like, preaching on

social media. I've known so many times, so many

millennials who were told, you're too young to be

doing this. You need to be trained, or even

engaging with secular music or secular culture in

a certain way that was deemed to be worldly. But

now for Gen Z, and I'm not saying that was wrong

or right, but it's yeah, it's more. Those

restrictions in a certain way, I think curtailed

some of the creativity that millennials had at the

time. And it's made people sit down.

>> Julia: I think. So going back to your point of like,

Church doesn't know how to deal with people in

their 30s and 40s. I think it only has really one

narrative, which is it's an assumption by your 30s

you'll have children and we know how to preach to

you or to work with you if you're a parent. But if

you don't have a child, they don't know how to

like, what to do because, like, it's almost like,

oh, we're, we'll re evangelise, we're evangelising

the children and through that we'll get to their

parents. But if you're not a parent, you're not

being caught in that bubble.

>> Jean: 100 and of course that might be why it's more

apparent now because generally speaking, the

trends are people, in their 30s and 40s are having

fewer children, at least in the Western world,

because of financial constraints, career, etc.

Etc. But I guess I would push back and challenge

on the parents piece because I agree that the

Church knows how to speak to parents because

parents want their children to grow up in the

Church but the actual parent themselves, they're

not really contributing that much to the Church In

their 30s and their 40s they are still. It's

almost like their only calling is to be a parent

or to be a husband or a wife. Just to say, though

that is an important calling and it's one of the

few callings that only that person can do on the.

In the earth. right. So you can only be, for the

time that you're alive, the parent to your child.

Whereas the calling to be an investment banker,

someone else can take your job at any time. So

that's not to diminish or say that, those callings

of parenthood and spousal commitments are not

important. But I think the Church still doesn't do

well talking to the whole person of the 30 and 40

year old.

>> Julia: I spent so much of my time in my twenties talking

about vacations and your vacation being much

deeper than just being in the Catholic Church

anyway. A priest, a nun, married, like they're not

the only options. But quite often when people talk

about vacations, that's like the limit they give.

And I'm always like, well, that's not actually

talking to the majority of younger people who

aren't yet married. And don't have according to

priesthood or being in religious life as well.

>> Jean: 100% agree. And. And it. When we narrow vocation

to that, it kind of abdicates our responsibility

as a Church in changing the world. And I think

that's why the Church missed or wasn't involved in

the development or propagation of social media.

Like, we really miss that boat. I guess I'm

concerned that if we don't start thinking about

vocation in a certain way, engaging millennials in

a particular way, the same thing will happen with

AI.

>> Julia: Yeah. I was just thinking, though, there are some

good examples of the churches also working with

millennials. So I just want to make sure.

>> Jean: Yeah. Yes, That's. I'm glad you said that. So.

Because I'm not saying that the Church doesn't use

millennials. That is not true. I mean, I've had a

lot of opportunities myself and I know, I have

groups of friends who are millennials, who are

pastors of churches, and I'm sure many of you can

think of your priest or vicar who is a millennial.

But I'm saying that there are a lot more people

who could be involved and they're really just on

the sidelines, like training. Like, if you think

about football analogy, they're on the sidelines.

Not even. Not even on the bench. They're just in

the stands.

>> Julia: But I think there's also something about, do they

want to be involved? And, do they feel like they

have a place? Because I. Being on. Being on, like

the Syrian group of the Young Adult Mass at Farm

street, we also have this challenge of a lot of

people come in for Mass every week and we try and

engage them. We try and say, will you volunteer?

Will you do this? Will you do that? And they don't

stand up and say, yes, I'm willing to volunteer.

And what we've come to realise is also that they

don't feel that ownership to volunteer. Like, they

don't feel it's their place. So I think there's

also that challenge of how do we change that

narrative? Like, you don't just come to Church to

volunteer, but, like, how do we make it so that

people feel like it is their place to volunteer?

>> Jean: Yeah, I think it's teaching. It's with everything.

Right. The more we're taught to. Like, a basic

principle in Christianity is we all know that

we're supposed to give. That's a basic. So. And

that's because we've been taught it for years and

years and years. And I think the. The more it's I

do think that it's a bit problematic for churches

in that they want to talk to Gen Z because they

feel that's where the Lord is moving. I shouldn't

say they feel because the Lord is doing something

in Gen Z. Right. I think there needs to be a way

to emphasise we also want people who are older

because they need to. We need discipleship. Who's

going to disciple Gen Z? So I think it's through

teaching that you get that to happen. And also

when you have a community, when you see people

like you involved, engaged in the Church you're

more likely to be involved.

>> Julia: So how do you think we connect with the

millennials who are feeling hurt or disconnected

by the church? By the Church yeah.

>> Jean: No. So I think it's two sided. I think millennials

firstly need to accept their hurt. So it's easy to

be proud and say I've forgiven, but your behaviour

is still the same. You know, there's this thing

that we say and I'm still struggling with it

because I don't think it's Christian but it's what

we're taught. But then I understand it because

people need boundaries and we use this thing like

expression. I've forgiven but I've not forgotten.

>> Julia: Yeah.

>> Jean: And I'm still trying to understand, is that what

Jesus meant when he's talking about forgiveness?

But I take the point about boundaries. Right. The

millennials I've come across, they say they're

forgiven, but they don't. And they who are hurt,

they don't want to contribute to Church because

they know they don't want to experience that same

level of pain or rejection again. So I think

there's a work of the Holy Spirit that needs to be

done in our hearts and I'm included in this. I

don't contribute to the Church in the same way I

did when I was younger, probably because of Church

hurt, if I'm honest with myself. So I think that's

the first thing we need to allow the Holy Spirit

to do that work in us to help us to forgive and

move on, move forward. So that's the millennial. I

think the Church needs to acknowledge that Church

hurt is real and not dismiss it. I think a lot of

millennials and also Gen Z are going from Church

to Church to Church and sometimes some vicar's

pastors are not familiar with the experiences that

people have had and so they may be dismissive, but

I think there's a place to acknowledge that

actually people are have been burnt out. People

have been hurt. And there's a space where people

should be allowed to express that, but then also

try to re engage these millennials, accepting that

they're hurt, but that they still have something

to contribute to the Church As I said, our lives

are, generally speaking, getting longer. So if

you're in your 30s now, and if you think about

Prince Charles, who's now King Charles, started

his work at 73 and his mom lived to 90. I can't

remember the exact age. Does that mean for the

next 40 to 60 years you're not going to be

contributing to the Church because of hurt that

you had in your 20s and 30s? So I think it's work

for both sides to do.

>> Julia: M. I was just thinking about, and I don't know in

other denominations, I know this probably from the

Catholic perspective, we're seeing that as more,

generations that are coming back into Church Is

it. They're coming more in a traditional way, and

that's what they're finding their faith in. But

then millennials, I would say, tend to be, and

this is my assumption, tend to be a little less

traditional. They're looking for something maybe a

bit more progressive than the Catholic Church Has

that been your experience of going to Church and

what you've seen?

>> Jean: So I will start from the point of I think God is

fantastic in that Church is so varied and vibrant

and different in all these different settings. And

the most fantastic thing for me is somehow, some

way people meet him in every single setting. So

that's where we start from. I grew up, actually, I

was confirmed. My dad is Catholic, so I had a

Catholic exposure. My mom and dad got both

divorced. And so my mom comes from more

charismatic evangelical background. So for most of

my childhood, I was in a, charismatic movement.

And then when I made the decision, I was in a

charismatic Church for like 20 years. But I felt

there was a point, and maybe because I did

theology as well, university, I felt there was a

point for me that I needed to be in an environment

which was a bit more regulated for one of a better

expression. I wanted a, environment that I was

still familiar, which is why I'm in an evangelical

Anglican setup, but then has this, rhythm and

tradition. And I don't know if this is going to be

my place forever. But I do think that people

sometimes, especially because there's chaos in the

world, I feel some people may find that they need

to be in a setting which they can rely on. And

some of the liturgies in the more established and

older churches do that. For them, and that's where

they meet God. And then on the other side, on the

flip side, for millennials, where we might have

grown up in a situation where there was a lot more

structure, it was a lot more rigid, you had to do

this, you had to be that. And people felt maybe

that they can't really express themselves freely

in these environments, which are a bit more

traditional. So they may choose, a more modern. I

don't like using the word progressive because it

has a lot of connotations.

>> Julia: That is also true. I was a bit hesitant when I

used it.

>> Jean: But, in a more modern setting. But I think no

matter where a person goes to Church for me the

key piece is do you encounter and meet God? And in

each of those settings, I find it so mind boggling

that a person can go into Church and just in the

silence meet God. Whereas for me, that might be a

bit confusing. I might be looking around like,

what's going on? I need to be in a place where I

can lift my hands, sing a few songs. But that

person that meets God in the silence, they won't

meet them when they're lifting their hands. And I

think that's beautiful. And I think we should

embrace that and learn from one another.

>> Julia: And that's so true. Like God meets us with who we

are and where we're, at at that time. Because I've

definitely had times in my life where I've found

Gordon, the singing and the, arm lifting. But I've

also God at, other times. In the silence.

>> Jean: Exactly.

>> Julia: So what things do you wish you knew about

adulting?

>> Jean: What I wished I, ah, knew. I want to say life is

not that deep. yeah, life is deep, but it's not

that deep. And the most important thing, the most

important friend is Jesus Christ. If you can hold

on to that and believe that no matter the ups and

the downs, you'll be all right. And to find time,

actually this is critical. Find time to spend time

with the Lord every day. I think I've noticed

between my friends who I grew up with in the

Church so the people that have stayed Christian in

that, the life that I've lived over the past 25,

30, years are people who have had made that time

to spend time with the Lord every single day.

Like, that's really what separates those of us

that are able to stay with the Lord when life gets

hard. Because life will get hard. for me, I had.

My brother passed away during COVID I've had

operations I failed at university as I said, my

parents divorced. We've had ups and downs, like

life, been, Church hurt, all these kinds of

things. The only thing that keeps you focused and

sure is that time with the Lord. And I just want

to say, I'm not making it legalistic. I'm not

saying you need to take your Bible every day and

spend five minutes or praying for one hour, two

hours of solitude. No, even if you are able to

wake up in the morning and say, thank you, Lord,

or when you're sitting in a coffee shop and you're

like, I don't understand, Lord, this is a mess.

Why didn't I get a job? Those little moments,

those small check ins with the Lord, I think that

is critical for life.

>> Julia: And what are you grateful for?

>> Jean: So a few years ago I was talking to a friend and I

was just saying to him, I went to this place and

this happened, and this happened. And then he

stopped me. He's a missionary in Australia. And he

said to me, gene, you know, and it's like maybe

during the pandemic, he said, gene, no matter

what, you should always remember you've lived a

very good life. No matter what happens next,

you've lived a very good life. And so for me, I

would say, despite all the ups and downs, I'm

grateful for the life that I've lived and the life

that I'm going to live, whatever that looks like.

So it's just small things like that. I'm like, oh,

actually God has really done something good. I

mean, if you think about me coming from Brixton,

the universities that I've been from, a single

parent home, I've worked in major investment

banks, and, I'm still a Christian. Like I still

have that relationship with God. So just the life

I've lived, I'm grateful for that.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to things I wish I knew. This

episode resonated with me as someone who is also a

millennial. It made me think about how we need

every generation to work together to build Church

and how we should use our experience to hear our

calling. How about you? We'd love to hear how

Jean's story resonated with you. And why not also

tell us if you're facing an experience you wish

you knew how to look at differently, it might just

be something we can help with. You can find out

more about this and other themes at

thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for listening.

I hope you'll join me again next time on Things I

Wish I Knew.