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This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers rather than those of Breast Cancer Now.

Today's episode is something a little bit different. We're talking about writing and specifically how to put your own breast cancer experience into words.
We've spoken to two different writers, Rosamund Dean, author of the brilliant Breast Cancer Guidebook Reconstruction and Alice May Purkiss, whose memoir is called Life, Lemons and Melons. You also have me, Laura Price. I'm the author of Single Bald Female, a novel inspired by my experience of dating with a bald head after breast cancer. I often receive messages from people saying they've had breast cancer and they'd like to write a book and they want some advice on either how to get published or simply how to start writing. So in this episode, we talked to Rosamund and Alice about how they started writing. why they wanted to write and how they transformed their own private thoughts into something that can be read by others. We cover thoughts on self-publishing, how journaling can help with your mental health and how to get over imposter syndrome. One of the things that struck me most about this episode is that everyone can be a writer. You don't need to be a best-selling author. You simply have to pick up a pen or a keyboard and start writing. So let's head straight into our first chat with Rosamund Dean. Aside from writing her guidebook, Reconstruction, How to Rebuild Your Body, Mind and Life After a Breast Cancer Diagnosis, Rosamund also documented her breast cancer journey in the Sunday Times Style Magazine with her husband, Jonathan. And she now writes a newsletter called Well, Well, Well. Let's go straight into our conversation with Rosamund.

You're a writer by trade and before your diagnosis, you spent years writing for women's magazines like Grazia and you then went on to write about your cancer in the Sunday Times style and various other places like your newsletter, Well, Well, Well. What made you decide to write about your cancer?

So, interestingly, I was deputy editor of Grazia and like a big pandemic cliche, I decided to I reassessed my values and I decided to go freelance so that I could, you know, pick the kids up from school and not be tied to a desk job. So I handed in my notice, which was a three month notice period. I worked my notice and literally in the week that I left my staff job, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So I became a freelance journalist the week that I got my diagnosis.

wow.

so yeah, I was kind of taking commissions where I could get them and doing what I can at that point. So when the editor of the Sunday Times style asked me and Jonathan to do the column. That's your husband? Yes. Yeah. So my husband Jonathan works at the Sunday Times anyway, he's on staff there. And so she asked him if he and I would do the column and um me it was kind of a no-brainer because it was a commission and I was incredibly anxious about getting enough work. But also, which I didn't really expect, I found it incredibly cathartic and especially because I did it with Jonathan, you know, we were living day to day dealing with chemo and the side effects and the negotiating the childcare so he could take me to chemo and dealing with the kids and our lives were so kind of busy and full that actually having that time to sit down and write about how you were feeling about what was going on and the way that we did it was we kind of wrote it. We would have kind of a chat saying oh I thought this week I might write about the kind of the social aspect of it like how it's been with our friends or something. And then we would write our own ones and then swap and read each other's. And it would just be really interesting reading his take on it all and, and vice versa. It, you know, I would recommend it for any couple going through a similar thing to write down how you feel and then swap. Cause yeah, it was, it was really cathartic and it really helped us process what we were feeling as we were going through it because when you're in that whirlwind, or it's almost like a conveyor belt when you get that diagnosis. It's just one thing after another in terms of scans and tests and treatment. And yeah, you don't really take that time to pause and think about how you're actually feeling. So it was actually quite powerful.

It actually sounds like brilliant advice for any couple or friends or even employer and employee to... talk about a really important topic like breast cancer, because for me, even though I present this podcast, I often find it difficult to talk about things, but I find it easy to write them down. My feelings I'm talking about primarily. And so the idea of having a difficult conversation with your partner by writing it down and then giving it to them and letting them write something down and give it to you is such a great way to open up a conversation.

Yeah, it was amazing and I think you're more honest when you're writing something down because you're not. Obviously it's more difficult to say something to somebody's face. So yeah, we were just really honest in writing down how we felt and one of the most powerful things about it were the responses that we got from readers, you know, in the comments and loads of people contacted us directly to tell us about their own experience of breast cancer. and also how they felt reading Jonathan's side of it because obviously the person who's the main carer of the person going through treatment, or not carer, that sounds a bit much, the main support of the person going through treatment, you know, it's so hard for them because they're, no one's asking how they are, everyone's asking him how I am. And yeah, it was really great to hear. what it was like for him as well and to hear how reading that has helped other people going through the same thing.

What effect does writing have on your mental health?

Well, I mean, I think there's loads of evidence to show that it's really good for your mental health. know, lots of people recommend journaling as a tool to kind of process eh emotions. um People talk about journaling in terms of getting difficult feelings out there, but also people talk about gratitude, gratitude journaling in terms of helping you kind of focus your mind on, you know, it can be really good in terms of mental health, helping focus your mind on the good things in your life. um So yeah, lots of people who are far cleverer than I am are able to say that, you know, it's a really powerful tool.

Is journaling just what we used to call writing a diary or is it slightly different?

I think so. I have to say I don't actually journal, but maybe I don't need to because I write so much for work. But yeah, I think it is just, it is just writing a diary, isn't it? It's just writing down how you feel.

I have to say, so I wrote a diary from when I was about 11 or possibly even younger all the way through my twenties and I'm now in my forties. I was single for a lot of that time, so I could just, you know, sort of have more of that time to yourself to write. I wrote about, I covered every aspect of my life through these diaries over the years. And when I was diagnosed with cancer in the last year of my twenties at age 29, I wrote like a paragraph saying, I've been diagnosed with breast cancer. I'm sure I'm going to be fine. Or something like, something like that, something like sweeping statement that I knew I was going to be fine. And then I didn't write for six to nine months, but I've then wrote a public blog. So all I have from that period of my life is this public blog where I was sharing loads of stuff about my chemo and the practical side of it and some emotional stuff. But what I really miss is that I can't look back and see how I was actually feeling. And I know that whilst I was being honest in my blogs that went on the internet. There was also, of course, a personal side that I wasn't sharing and I probably didn't share the level of fear or things that I was really feeling, because I had family members who I didn't want to upset and make them more scared. So yeah, I kind of regret not having written that personal stuff back then.

It can be a really helpful thing to do. I mean, like you say, if you write something that's just for you, you can be a lot more raw. And the thing about our column was we knew it was going in the newspaper. So there was inevitably an element of self-preservation, I guess, within that. Although, you know, we tried to be as honest as possible, but, you know, if you know it's going in the paper, I guess you're not going to be as raw as if you were just writing something that no one is ever going to see.

Yeah. And it's not the local paper either. It is the Sunday Times style. So I'm not quite sure what the readership is, but it's big. Yeah. What do you find the most difficult part of writing?

I would say the most difficult part of writing is starting. If you have an idea for something, going from the idea to starting to write it is the most difficult thing because once you start and you get into it and then you can see it coming together, then it becomes a lot easier. ah I once saw a graph that showed the writing process and it was something like the point at which you have the idea and it's like, this is amazing. And it sort of goes down and it's like, this is shit, I am shit. I can't do it. And there's like a really low point and then it's like, actually, maybe this works. Actually, this is amazing. And it kind of goes back up again. But there's always a low point where it's like, this is not happening.

Yeah. That sounds quite accurate about the process of writing. And how do you tackle that challenge of getting started?

Well, in my case, I normally have a commissioning editor waiting for my copy. So otherwise I won't get paid. So I just have to like plough through, even though it's really hard. think anyone who's working on a more personal writing project, it's a lot more difficult because you have to have self self discipline. um I think accountability can really help. So if you have like a writing group or maybe you sign up to a course where you have to kind of meet deadlines, that kind of thing, that can really help. think some kind of accountability is really important.

Most people listening to this won't be professional writers. And so I think if they're struggling to get started, but they want to write, I think probably the question is, ask yourself why you want to write, what's your purpose? Is it for you? Is it for your children to read in future? Is it, you're really keen to get published, know, what's your reason for writing? And then once you figure that out, it should hopefully be easier to get started. Yeah. Cause you know why you're doing it.

Exactly. It's really good advice. Find your why.

Yes. they say. And I do get quite a lot of people occasionally messaging me saying, um you've written a book, I'd really like to write a book. How do you and actually specifically wanting to write it about their breast cancer experience or another big life challenge or disease that they've had. And they say, how can I go about writing it? How can I go about writing a memoir? What was the process of you for you deciding to write your book Reconstruction?

Well, we had so we wrote the column for a year. So we had a year of columns and a few people had said to me, oh, do you have any plans to put these together in a book or to do a book along these lines? And I was very much like, no, I'm not going to pursue that. Once this is over, I don't want to think about breast cancer anymore. I just want to move on with my life. I'm not going to do it. And then I got an email from the woman who went on to be my editor at HarperCollins. And she emailed me and said, I've I have, I'm an editor at HarperCollins. I've just returned to work after a year off with having been through breast cancer treatment. And I read lots of books and none of them spoke to me in the way that your columns did. And I wondered if you'd be interested in writing a book. And I remember Jonathan was like, this is literally fallen in your lap. You can't not do it. So, so yeah, there were definitely times when I was writing the book, when I was like, why did I agree to this? I'm just like still immersed in this world of breast cancer. And I really wanted to move on. But That was the dark time. There's always a dark point, I think, in writing. And there were days of writing that book where I was like, this is amazing. I'm so lucky to have this outlet where I can actually legitimately spend my time doing this and get paid for it. And I'm learning so much because I spoke to so many experts for the book and I learned so much about ways to reduce my risk of recurrence, which was obviously a big concern for me. But yeah, I also spoke to psychologists and people about kind of putting yourself back together again after breast cancer. And I feel like I just feel so lucky to have had that experience and to have been able to put it together in a book that now I know has helped so many people because I get DMs from people all the time saying how much it's helped them. And I always want to say That's lovely, but please could you say that in an Amazon review?

Yes, very important. If someone is listening to this podcast and would like to write a book or even just an article or a blog about their experience with breast cancer, what would you say to them?

I would say there are so many ways now to get your writing out there because, you know, the internet has just democratised the whole writing. process so much. used to be, you know, 20 years ago, there were gatekeepers and you had to have an agent or you had to work for one of the big publications. Whereas now you can start a sub stack and you can write regularly on there and it can grow over time. And then it's, it's always there. That's something that's always going to be there. So, um, yeah. So I would say if you want to write, just write and then, and focus on getting out of you, what you feel like. you need to write about. And then once you've built up a kind of body of work online, then, you know, if you wanted to write a book, then if you do talk to agents, then you've got something to show them. And it's, yeah, I think just start is having said the hardest bit is starting the advice is just start. And Substack is the platform. Substack.com is the platform that people can use. It's similar to blogging, but we call it newsletters now. And you can just go on there and create your own site essentially and start writing. yeah, exactly. So I do my health and wellness newsletter, which is called Well, Well, Well. And it's just rosamundean.substack.com. And I think they just make it so easy, even for someone like me who is not technologically proficient in any way whatsoever. It's not like building a website, you know, it's all it's very, very intuitive and it's all there and it's very simple. So, um, yeah, if I can do it, literally anybody can.

What book would you recommend for listeners of this podcast? Any book?

I would say a really brilliant book about writing is uh Hattie Crissell has a podcast. uh and a sub stack actually, called In Writing and her book came out last year, which is all about the process of writing. So she interviews writers on her podcast and it's just, it's so interesting the way she's kind of grouped together their advice in this book. I think it's an excellent guide because it's very reassuring in terms of even the best and most prolific writers have days where they're just like, can't do this. And I think that's really reassuring. yeah, I loved that book. And another book that I really loved, which is not specific to cancer or writing, but I just love it as a general life guide is Oliver Berkman's 4000 Weeks.

Oh, I don't know that one.

So 4000 Weeks is the average lifespan. And it's almost a time management book, but the main thrust of it is basically life is short, you will never clear the decks or get on top of your emails. Like stop expecting to do that and just work out what's important to you and do that. And it's, it's a very eloquent and funny book and it says it much better than I just explained it, but it, sounds almost depressing because it's about, you know, you will die. It's kind of the thrust of the book, but it's framed in a way that the freedom of that should allow you to focus oh only on what you think is really important to you.

Doesn't sound depressing at all to me actually. It sounds like exactly my way of thinking now, which is, yeah, life is short and just do all the things.

Exactly.

What authors inspire you the most?

Which authors inspire me? Well, I love Oliver Berkman's work because he is is great at that kind of, um you know, how to live life kind of stuff, if we talk about self-help. In terms of um fiction, have you read All Thors? The Miranda July book?

Oh, no, I haven't.

It's one of my favourite books of last year, because it was just so kind of raw. And so I think it really I think the reason it was such a big hit is because it just spoke to a lot of women who were going through that perimenopausal stage. yeah, but it's in such a mad way. The protagonist is kind of behaved so madly that it's it's a yeah, I loved how refreshing and weird it was.

I love that there are many, many, many more books than there ever were now about menopause and perimenopause, which is very relevant to lots of the people who listen to this podcast and have been through breast cancer. Yeah, that's really great to see ourselves and our hot flushes reflected in literature.

Yes. Yeah, definitely.

And finally, what are your best tips for writing?

Well, I would say that everybody is different. Like some people can't work if they're in a cafe and they have noise going on around and they need to be at home with total silence.

That's me.

That's you. So I'm kind of the opposite. I can't work at home in total silence because I get, if I'm at home, I just get too easily distracted by putting the washing on or having a snack or tidying up or I just, I don't know why I can't do it. I need to be in a cafe where I have no like home related jobs to do. And I can get on with stuff much better when there's kind of, you know, stuff going on around me. So, Unfortunately, I love working in cafes because that is not a very economically viable way to be a freelance journalist. So I try and limit my working in cafes time. But yeah, work out what is the best way to work for you. But having said that, don't spend lots of time obsessing over having the perfect desk set up or the perfect chair or the perfect pen or you know, all of that stuff actually doesn't matter when it comes down to it. It really is case of getting on with it. And I would say the most difficult bit is starting. So if you can force yourself to start, then it only gets easier from there because then you can see that with the tools that you have right now, you've managed to start. And once you've got something, I think it was... Oh, who's the writer who said embrace the shitty first draft?

Oh, I'm not sure actually who said that.

Anyway, embrace the shitty first draft because just know that the first draft is always, you can always work on it. Once you've got something to work with, then you can make it better. So don't worry about it being perfect. Basically, get rid of perfectionism and just write because once you've got something down, then you can improve on it.

Your advice on writing is very reflective of your advice that you gave us in the other episode that we recorded with you about your breast cancer experience and your wellness writing, which is basically figure out what works for you. So you were talking about exercise with us on that episode and, you know, not just running a marathon because everyone's running a marathon, but actually figuring out what exercise works for you. I guess in that same way. figuring out what your writing climate is, what your setup is and what kind of writing you want to do and going from there.

Exactly, yeah, because everyone's different and it's so hard to be prescriptive with advice on almost anything because, you know, people work in such different ways and people live in such different ways and what feels good for one person isn't right for another person. So, yeah, it really is about getting to know yourself and being a bit, you know, unashamed of this is what works for me. So I'm not going to do that thing that works for somebody on Instagram.

And where can people find your writing work in your books?

So my books, Reconstruction and Mindful Drinking are widely available. And my sub stack is rosamunddean.substack.com, ah which is all about health and wellness and how to be healthy in a way that is doable and fun.

Amazing. Rosamund, thank you so much.

Thanks so much for having me.

Hi, it's Laura again here. Rosamund mentioned the novel All Fours by Miranda July, which I haven't read at the time, but I now have. And I'd say it certainly is a window into the way our lives and our brains can completely change after menopause. I'd also like to throw in another menopause related novel I loved, which is called Amazing Grace Adams by Fran Littlewood. We're now gonna bring you an interview with Alice May Purkiss, a wellbeing and creativity coach who was diagnosed with breast cancer when she was 26. Not long after having breast cancer, Alice wrote a memoir called Life, Lemons and Melons about suffering from both depression and cancer. There's a lot of emphasis in this conversation on how and when to know if you're ready and how you know you've got the book that you want to write as opposed to something that you think you're supposed to be writing. It's a really interesting lesson in understanding why we might want to write about our experiences. So let's go ahead and jump straight into that conversation with Alice May Purkiss.

You talked about writing there. You're a writer. You were a writer before your breast cancer diagnosis. And I'd love to get your thoughts on writing and its role in the healing process. How does writing affect your, or how does writing help with your mental health?

So I thought for a long time that this was just anecdotal and that it's just, you know, people have written for decades, millennia, just forever. People have written forever, right? And I thought that it was just, you know, people saying, writing makes me feel better, helps me see things more clearly. It helps me understand my experiences better. But there's actually so much research that's been done around the kind of clinical benefits of writing. And there's all sorts of schools of thought that writing can help you. When you add like a narrative structure to an experience and look at it as a story rather than something that happened to me, it can help you process it. And when we start to process things, we start to heal from them. There's so much more complex research that I probably couldn't go into in effective detail, but that's the kind of crux of it is when we're just looking at things in a different way and when we look at things in a different way, we start to process them differently and that helps us understand them. em And yeah, for a long time I thought, oh you know, there's just a select bunch of us who can not like. Not like an elite bunch, but there's just a few people who can really benefit from writing, but it's actually it's everyone and And there's loads of tools and tips and techniques and stuff that you can use to help you explore that from journaling to Turning your experience into a story um yeah.

So if any of our listeners are non-professional writers And they would like to use writing to sort of help them process what they've been through with a breast cancer experience Where should they start?

turn it into a story. So that might mean that you write a story about a character who has the same experiences as you or similar experiences to you, because that can be very helpful, very healing. um I wonder, did you find that right in Single-Wolf Female?

No, so I was actually going to ask you why you would suggest fictionalising something. Why would you suggest making a character versus just writing about your own experience?

Because I find it much easier to write about me and my own experience, hence I decided to write a novel instead of a memoir. And I found that much harder because I was having to make stuff up and I'm much better at just explaining things that have happened to me than inventing stuff.

So I think with this kind of exercise, it's useful to take your experiences but put them on another person because that change in perspective just helps you look at things from a different angle um And I guess with Single Ball Female, because you weren't, because Jessica wasn't based on you. I mean she was. Thanks for the plug, Alice.

You're welcome.

So just to explain, Single Ball Female is a novel that I wrote. and came out in 2022. Jessica is the, or Jess is the character, she is diagnosed with breast cancer after a breakup. And she is a fictional character. Her life, her family is, you know, all her family background and her relationships are made up. But a lot of her breast cancer treatment was kind of based on my experience. So there were elements of me that were in there, but it was a fiction that I built around that.

So I think with this exercise, it's not necessarily inventing things. So I might write, rather than writing, this happened to me, or this happened and I experienced this and I felt this, you might write like, you might even just change the perspective of it. So you might write it in third person. So Alice went through breast cancer when she was 26. She experienced X, Y, Z. And just that change in perspective can be a really useful thing. It's just, I think there's something about neuroplasticity that I can't fully remember, but like how your brain works and how your brain makes sense of things when you flip that perspective.

What is neuroplasticity?

So neuroplasticity is basically your brain's ability to change.

Like plasticine.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. um One of my favourite facts about neuroplasticity, and I talked about this in a workshop that I ran recently for breast cancer now about goal setting. Your brain can't tell the difference between doing something and imagining doing it. So it actually starts creating the neural pathways if you visualise doing something and that can help to leading you to do it. So it's just about how, yeah, how flexible your brain is, guess.

So is that manifesting?

Essentially, yeah.

I'm often approached by people who, because I wrote a book, they say, How did you do that? I'm really interested in writing a memoir or a novel from my breast cancer experience. I imagine you get people approaching you um asking about this a lot as well. If someone is trying to get their writing published versus just writing for their own purposes to try and process things um for themselves, what would you say to them?

I think figure out what story you wanna tell and why you wanna tell it. So what's the purpose of the piece that you wanna write. Do you wanna educate? Do you wanna shine a light on something that isn't often talked about? Do you wanna entertain people? Start to unpick what your purpose is, and then that'll start to give you an idea of the story that you wanna tell. If you aren't sure of what your purpose is, write around the story until you find it, because it will become apparent. So yeah, think finding your purpose, building your base, getting comfortable. with talking about your experience as well. um And making sure you're looking after yourself, I think is really important. Making sure you've got coping mechanisms for writing about something that might be difficult to revisit.

But what do you think about newsletters and blogs and writing, maybe not focusing straight away on trying to write it as a book that's gonna get published, but writing it instead um in an instantly published fashion?

Yeah. I'm a huge advocate of all of that kind of long form writing that exists on the internet. um I think it's a really good way for you to develop your craft as well. So the more you write, the better you get at writing and the more you read, the better you get at writing as well. So I would absolutely encourage you to read widely and read stuff that you wouldn't ordinarily read so that you can develop your writing skills. But yeah, things like Substack.

Substack's really popping off. So Substack is a platform that people can go on to publish a newsletter, which is very similar to what blogs used to be.

Yes, absolutely. And it's all in one place. I think the great thing about Substack as well is it's kind of like the social media without the pressure at the moment. That might change. But you can follow people. You can recommend people. You log in and it's all on your feed. em And you can just scroll through, decide what you want to read. And, but yeah, like I got my stripes right in a blog and that allowed me to just continually develop my writing skills and figure out like what my authentic voice was and is and how that then translates to a longer piece if I want to do that. But I do think that there's also something about kind of longer form writing on social media as well and exploring that and Yeah, the algorithm might not love it, so it might not get loads of likes or loads of engagement, but what does it mean to you to do that and how does that make you feel? If it makes you feel good, then go for it.

Yeah. I always think it's funny on social media when a person who is maybe uh upper end of a millennial like me in my early 40s, who will write like, I don't know, a thousand words for just an Instagram post caption. And then a person who is 20 years younger than me will just write vibes. Yeah, I'll use emojis. There's a big difference.

So you eventually decided to self-publish your memoir. How was that experience?

Quite stressful, I think. So I did everything with the book. I did a crowd funder, so like a Kickstarter to try and get money because otherwise I was going to be out of pocket if I did it. I did a kickstart with rewards and stuff that people could get if they pledged towards the creation of the book. And then I wrote it, obviously, and then I set it, so actually did the design of what it looks like. And I think this is also another reason why maybe I think I shouldn't have done it. Like, if you look at the book, there are so many differences. So like the font might be a slightly different colour or a slightly different size on one page. and it looks more like a textbook than like a piece of, like a book you would buy in a shop. um So it is quite hard and it is a lot about learning the process and learning the skills to then apply to the project, which can be a bit tricky. um But the day the books arrived at my house, because I had... I think I ordered 500 because that was the amount of people who needed me to send them for the Kickstarter. The day those books arrived at my house was a very cool day. And I have a video of it, of me opening it and looking at the books. And yeah, it's not like a book you would buy in a bookshop. It does look more like a textbook, but it's still a thing that I wrote and that I created. And that's pretty cool. So yeah, it's... It's not without its challenges. But actually I know loads of people who've self-published and love the whole experience. Yeah.

What would you, where would you recommend people start if they do want to self-publish a book as opposed to publishing on newsletters and keeping it all just sort of on the internet instead?

Yeah. I would recommend starting with a tool like Scrivener. So that's a writing tool that you have on your computer to program. and it helps you break everything into sections and chapters and you can plot it out and you can, if you are writing about different people, you can do maps to like keep track of all of that. It's a really good place for you to begin a project. And then I would recommend just reading about self-publishing. There's so many resources online about how to do it, how to do it effectively. Get to grips with the programs that you'll need to use. uh to self-publish, that's something that I really rushed, I think. And I think that's why there's so many inaccuracies in the actual book, because I felt the pressure of the people who'd pledged towards the book. So spend some time getting to grips with the programs you're gonna have to use, do some research about what version of the book you're gonna get printed, because there's loads of different versions you can get. A5 size or whatever, to explore all of that. And I think just do more research than I did. It's probably advisable.

Any tips for writing or creativity?

One of the best ways to start writing, and you might disagree, but I think the blank page is really terrifying. And I think a lot of people look at a blank page and think they're of like paralysed by it. So I would say if you wanna write, set some time aside. Really like create a space in which you think you can write. Doesn't have to be perfect. And then set a timer and try and write for 10 minutes, five minutes, three minutes. But setting that timer gives you a container in which you're gonna write. And that time I might go off and you might be like, bloody hell, I'm in the middle of a sentence. I can keep going, I'm in the middle of an idea. But it might also just be the start of something. So you can look at what you've created and think, oh, that's an interesting idea. Maybe I'll expand on that. That's interesting. Maybe I'll look into that a little bit more. So I would also encourage you to write every day if you wanna write. Again, it's not always possible, right? Life happens. You and I both know that very well. em But if you can, even if it's just for a couple of minutes every day, I would recommend getting into that habit because it's building the muscles, like going to the gym. And then in terms of creativity, know, a lot of us say, oh, I'm not creative. And we feel like creativity is something for other people, but it's absolutely not. Everyone is creative. If you think about how you solve a problem, that is creative. If you decide to take a different route to work, that's creative. I think we can kind of cultivate a space that encourages creativity. So I have an office at the end of the garden and it's full of all sorts of stuff that helps me feel creative on the days when I don't feel creative. Let go of any preconceptions about what you're gonna make, what you're gonna write, and just do it for the joy of it and see what happens as a result. I think a lot of creativity and a lot of writing is being curious and being playful and being willing to do both.

Do you think you'll write another book?

I'm working on a novel.

Ooh.

Yeah.

Is there anything you can share?

Yeah, so my novel is about a female illusionist set in the golden age of magic.

Wow.

And I've got, I think I've got about 50 or 60,000 words, em the only time, yeah, the only time I ever write it is if I go away. So I try and go away once a year to do some writing and I just write for a week. But I just can't write it at home.

Okay, why do you think that is? Because I have that a little bit and I've recently, probably too much information, but we've got damp in what is usually my office at home. So we've moved my desk into the kitchen. And I suddenly feel a bit more creative.

That's interesting.

I think it's to do with just being used to my space.

Change of scenery.

Yeah. I think a change of scenery does wonders for creativity. Because it's just your brains in a different place. in my office at the end of the garden, I never write in there because that's where I do my coaching. That's where I have coaching clients. That's where I do boring marketing work. Not necessarily boring, but I do marketing work to like pay the bills. It's where I deliver workshops, things like that. So it's a very different space to one that I need. for writing.

Which is funny because it sounds like the office at the end of the garden sounds like the perfect space for writing.

I if I didn't do the other work in there it would be. And I think maybe when we decided to get it I think my husband was hoping that I would do writing in there. But yeah it's like I commute down the garden to the office. It's like going into, I used to work on Grayson Road in the Channel 4 building. It's kind of the same thing in many ways even though it's my office at the end of the garden and it's full of all my creative stuff. I can do creative work in there, but writing, just, need that change of scenery, whether it's going to a cafe, whether it's going to the seaside, whatever. So yeah, I do think that's a good tip actually. If you're, if you feel like you are stagnated, change of scene.

Move your desk.

Yeah.

Move your desk to the kitchen.

Or just move your laptop. Yeah. your computer.

Are there any books you'd recommend? to listeners of this podcast, whether they are just incredible memoirs or books to do with breast cancer or books on creativity or just great books.

Yeah, I mean, I love to read. I would definitely, in terms of books about cancer, I would definitely recommend Kris Halenga's Glittering a Turd. Kris Halenga is the founder of Coppafeel. Yeah, and our late great friend. em Yeah, so Glittering a Turd is fantastic. And I always think it's really interesting because Kris wrote that and I know that she didn't find it easy and she always said, I will never write another book. But it is brilliant. So I definitely recommend that to anyone listening. And it is kind of cancer related, but also kind of life. Well, it is cancer related, but it's also kind of just about life as well.

Life Shocks by Sophie Savage.

OK.

So Sophie Savage was, em she had a brain tumour and she, I think she might have been a coach as well actually. It's a long time since I read her book, but Life Shocks is about those moments when something happens, doesn't have to be cancer, that shakes everything and it's about how to deal with them. And I found that really, em like really empowering, I think. would also recommend The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk. That is one that I always recommend to people who've had any kind of cancer experience because again, I think a lot of what I thought about how I was feeling after cancer was anecdotal, just specific to me, but actually um The Body Keeps the Score. identifies that it isn't and there's lots of physiological side effects of cancer and its treatments and the mental toll of that.

It talks a lot about trauma and PTSD.

Yeah, And post-traumatic growth as well. So turning post-traumatic distress into growth, which is really interesting. It's quite academic and it's like, it's not an easy read, but I would recommend that. I also just read Your Brain on Art, which I found really fascinating. obvious reasons because I'm a big believer in creative health but it's just like how being creative and engaging with art impacts your brain em and what that can do for your overall well-being because creativity doesn't just impact your mental health it impacts your physical health as well like dancing has been proven to improve migraines and um yeah creativity in general can help reduce pain and all sorts of things like that so that's a great one.

Any books you recommend on writing or creativity?

Yes, so in terms of writing, em oh so I just read... em In writing. Yes, In Writing by Hattie Crissell, . That's really great, that's really good tips from writers who've been in the Quagmire and have come out with the Scars to prove it. em When I say Scars I mean novels or non-fiction books. em Yeah, so that's a really good one. The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. That's a great book. Rick Rubin, he's a producer, isn't he, Rick Rubin, I think? Yeah, music producer. em And yeah, that's a really good, it's one of those books that you like dip into and dip out of. And that's about, em yeah, how to bring more creativity into your life.
And then The Science of Storytelling by Will Store.

Yeah, that's a good one. Well, we'll put a list of your recommendations in the show notes. So if you have some that you want to add afterwards, we can just add those.

Perfect. Yeah, let's do that.

It's a lot of information. Yeah.

I think em I would just like to second Kris Halenga's amazing memoir that she wrote, Glittering a Turd, about being diagnosed with breast cancer when she was 23 and then founding the amazing charity Coppafeel. And I think for me, what was so amazing about that book what makes it work and what makes it a brilliant book, aside from the fact that she's just got the most incredible story, was the honesty that she writes with. Like she's just really, she doesn't try and use any flowery language. And often for me as a reader, I like the books where the writing is the simplest. So it's like I had a cup of tea rather than I. foraged in the forest for the tea leaves. Sorry, that was really bad example. But Chris, her writing was just so straightforward. She was never trying to impress anyone with anything. And she was the same as a person. She was the same online and on Instagram. She would never be trying to look hot. She would just be pulling the silly face and just doing the silly thing. that book was... was the same. eh And I think that's, you know, I think that is a writing tip is what I'm trying to say is don't try to impress people. Just be you.

Yeah

Just write your truth. Don't try to emulate someone else's writing. Just be you as a writer. Write down your experience that has happened to you if you're trying to write nonfiction. And that's where it will come.

Yeah

Not by trying to be anyone else.

Totally, that goes back to that idea of authenticity as well. I love reading a story when you can hear the person's voice. Even if you don't necessarily know what they sound like, I think that's really important with non-fiction and that comes back to being authentic. And yeah, I do a lot of work with people around telling the story that you wanna tell and not telling the story that you feel like you should tell. There's so much of my experience that I talk about and talk about very openly and I wrote about in the book, but there's also bits in there that I didn't write about. Like I didn't really write that much about my relationship with my husband, didn't write about how cancer impacted our sex life, our intimacy, our relationship. Didn't really write a great deal about my parents and my sister. um So only ever tell the story that you want to. It's your story so you can, you're in control.

Yeah, and I think that's an important point because I think a lot of people, when they hear the word memoir, they confuse it with autobiography. And actually a memoir is a section or a thing that happened in your life. So it might be a period of one year of your life that is just your breast cancer diagnosis. And of course you would bring other elements into that, like parts of your relationships and whatever was happening in your family at the time, but it's not your life story and actually, Kris's book, Glittering a Turd, was more of an autobiography, perhaps, than a memoir, because it did talk us through her amazing life growing up in Germany and then moving to the UK with her twin sister. And perhaps that was a bit more expansive of parts of her whole life. But again, it was only the bits that she wanted to share with us. um And yeah, you really do have to be comfortable in... saying this is what I'm willing to share, these are where my boundaries lie.

Yeah. I think that's so true. Figuring out your boundaries is absolutely crucial.

Which authors inspire you?

Oh, which authors inspire me?

And it might be the same ones of the books you've just recommended, but if you have any additional ones.

I'm always inspired in terms of fiction by Margaret Atwood. Okay. Classic, right? Because she just has such a brilliant way of looking at things and so much of her writing is so forward thinking. I think actually Margaret Atwood, I would say she's not an especially florid writer, she doesn't write with really flowery language. She's quite stripped back, quite matter of fact and proves that you can say a lot with a little. So yeah, love Margaret Atwood. This is Handmaid's Tale. Yes, yeah. Yeah, she's brilliant. Yeah, so I suppose em I would also say that those writers that I listed earlier are really inspirational to me m because they all... explore things again in such different ways and I think that demonstrates that you can have an idea on a topic that's different from somebody else's and your perspective is always so valuable. um In terms of newsletters, I absolutely love Alice Vincent. I think she writes beautifully about life and growth and all of that kind of stuff and she writes very much about plants and things like that. I love Daisy Buchanan.

Yeah, love Daisy.

Yeah, she's brilliant. And she's a fantastic person to follow if you are curious about writing as well.

Yeah, Daisy has a brilliant newsletter about creativity, which if you are trying to write, she will give you the, it's called Creative Confidence Clinic, isn't it?

Yeah, she's a brilliant cheerleader for all kind of new writers, I think. Pona Bell as well. I love Pona's stuff. She writes about grief and loss and life. And I think that's it, you know, I always read to learn something new. And I think you can learn so much from other people's experiences. So yeah, Porn of Substance also really good. And Haley Nauman, she is American. She writes Maybe Baby, which is really, really good one. She's a beautiful writer. And yeah, again, just tackles the things that are really... kind of pertinent and pressing to our generation of people. Things about work, life, having kids, growing a family, having a pet, all of that kind of stuff. So she's brilliant as well, I would recommend that one.

I think we read to learn, like you say, but I think we, I read and I listen to podcasts also to echo what I'm already thinking and to tell me that what I'm thinking is okay. and that it's someone else is thinking it or someone else is feeling it. So if I'm having a, I don't know, if I'm feeling like, oh, I can't think of any examples right now, but if I'm feeling a certain way and then the next day I read a newsletter and someone else is feeling that way, I'll be like, yes, okay.

It goes back to that idea

It makes you feel better.

yeah. Like we have to really consciously create community now because we're not. going to church or we're not going, you know, even pubs, pubs used to be community spaces and we don't have those spaces anymore. They've been like youth centres, all of that kind of stuff, it's all gone. So we have to really carefully cultivate a community of people that make you feel seen and heard and understood. um And yeah, I think newsletters are a great place to do that.

Daisy Buchanan is a great one as well because she has published four novels and several non-fiction books. She's a very successful. author, but what she writes in her newsletter is that she felt so m self-conscious and so, what's the word?

She's very critical of herself, isn't she?

Yeah, self-critical. And she doesn't think she's worthy of having this published, et cetera. And so for me, as a lesser published writer, to look at that and go, okay, well, Daisy Buchanan doesn't think she can do it, but she does do it, is really... sort of empowering.

Yeah, I think it's like everybody has imposter syndrome one way or another in their lives. And I think being reminded that even the most successful people also struggle with that feeling, those feelings of inadequacy or whatever, think is really reassuring. And it's the human condition, isn't it? It's just a reminder that we're all human, we're all multifaceted and we're all incredibly complex. creatures with a massive computer in our schools that is more powerful than we know what to do with. And it's nice to hear other people say things like that.

Where can people find your writing, Alice?

So you can find me on Substack. Basically, if you just search Alice May Purkiss on a chosen platform, you'll find me. yeah, on Substack, my website is and talks about my coaching and my workshops and stuff that I deliver. And then yeah, on Instagram, Alice Mae Purkiss as well.

I really hope you enjoyed these two conversations with Rosamund and Alice and that perhaps they've inspired you to write something down about your personal experience with breast cancer, whether it's just a diary to keep to yourself or something you're hoping to publish. Rosamund and Alice have each recorded a separate episode with us about their breast cancer stories. Rosamund is all about wellness while Alice talks about the language we use around breast cancer. as well as mental health and coping with the emotional impact of illness. They also both talk about having treatment for triple negative breast cancer. As ever, we've put those links in the show notes.

Thank you for listening and I hope you really enjoyed the episode. If you enjoyed this episode of the Breast Cancer Now podcast, make sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Please also leave us a rating or review on Apple podcasts and perhaps recommend it to someone you think would find it helpful. The more people we can reach, the more we can get Breast Cancer Now's vital resources to those who need them. You can find support and information on our website, BreastCancerNow.org and you can follow Breast Cancer Now on social media at Breast Cancer Now. All the links mentioned in this episode are listed in the show notes in your podcast app. Thank you for listening to the Breast Cancer Now podcast.