1 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:03,150 Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast. 2 00:00:04,225 --> 00:00:06,715 Andy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94. 3 00:00:06,745 --> 00:00:09,414 My name is Andrew Hunter Murray and we're here to discuss all the latest 4 00:00:09,414 --> 00:00:13,434 goings on, in and out of the magazine and in the news over the last fortnight. 5 00:00:13,944 --> 00:00:16,904 I'm here with Helen Lewis, Richard Brooks and Ian Hislop. 6 00:00:17,274 --> 00:00:18,654 . Helen, we we turn to you. 7 00:00:18,744 --> 00:00:18,864 Yes. 8 00:00:18,894 --> 00:00:22,164 Uh, because we look to you, our society correspondent to find out what's 9 00:00:22,164 --> 00:00:24,054 been going on with the royal family. 10 00:00:24,054 --> 00:00:26,304 Any news of them recently or have they been maintaining 11 00:00:26,304 --> 00:00:27,954 their usual monastic silence? 12 00:00:28,269 --> 00:00:30,219 Helen: Do you know the worst thing is it for quite a long time when I, 13 00:00:30,219 --> 00:00:32,289 particularly when I worked at the Daily Mail, everyone used to say 14 00:00:32,289 --> 00:00:33,879 that I looked like Princess Beatrice. 15 00:00:33,879 --> 00:00:37,089 In fact, my leaving page from the Daily Mail is, I'll be off anyway. 16 00:00:37,089 --> 00:00:40,659 The worst thing about it now is that my poor brother turns out he looks 17 00:00:40,659 --> 00:00:42,159 like quite a lot like Prince Andrew. 18 00:00:42,369 --> 00:00:44,049 Luckily he's in New Zealand, so it's fine. 19 00:00:44,049 --> 00:00:45,279 They don't have the newspapers there. 20 00:00:45,759 --> 00:00:48,699 Um, anyway, so I feel the personal involvement in 21 00:00:48,699 --> 00:00:49,299 this Absolutely. 22 00:00:49,299 --> 00:00:52,389 As a satellite branch of the Yorks, he's now of course, uh, 23 00:00:52,449 --> 00:00:53,859 Andrew Mount Batten Windsor. 24 00:00:53,949 --> 00:00:55,689 He's given up the night of the Garter. 25 00:00:55,689 --> 00:00:56,889 He's given up the Princeton. 26 00:00:57,129 --> 00:00:58,749 He's agreed not to use the titles. 27 00:00:59,139 --> 00:01:02,799 Would you like to know when the leg relevant legislation for this comes 28 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:06,459 from for giving up your, for having your Princeton taken away or your titles? 29 00:01:07,218 --> 00:01:12,288 1917, because of course quite a lot of Queen Victoria's grandchildren 30 00:01:12,498 --> 00:01:16,368 had got British Juel or Princely titles and they had ended up on the 31 00:01:16,368 --> 00:01:18,168 wrong side of the First World War. 32 00:01:18,168 --> 00:01:20,268 And so there were quite a few people called Ernst and 33 00:01:20,268 --> 00:01:21,888 various like variations of that. 34 00:01:22,038 --> 00:01:24,168 Who got D Prince during the first world? 35 00:01:24,438 --> 00:01:24,498 I 36 00:01:25,215 --> 00:01:28,245 So that's the legislation that they will be used as a, as a template Yeah. 37 00:01:28,245 --> 00:01:31,305 To kind of, uh, I mean, and that's, you know, the previous version he 38 00:01:31,305 --> 00:01:33,015 had just agreed not to use them. 39 00:01:33,020 --> 00:01:33,290 Yeah. 40 00:01:33,295 --> 00:01:36,075 But the statement from the king and queen seemed to imply that they 41 00:01:36,075 --> 00:01:39,525 were actually going to move forward with an official debugging and de 42 00:01:40,050 --> 00:01:40,350 Andy: Yes. 43 00:01:40,350 --> 00:01:42,780 That's still, if you agree not to use them, but you still got them. 44 00:01:42,780 --> 00:01:43,986 That seems like a bit of a fudge. 45 00:01:43,986 --> 00:01:46,457 Helen: he, he wrote this email, the, you know, the famous email to Epstein, 46 00:01:46,457 --> 00:01:49,907 I think really did for him, which proved that he had lied to Emily Mala, you know, 47 00:01:49,907 --> 00:01:51,797 this one he'd wrote in 2011 that said 48 00:01:51,962 --> 00:01:53,462 Ian: is that officially unacceptable. 49 00:01:53,477 --> 00:01:53,897 Helen: Yeah. 50 00:01:54,467 --> 00:01:54,647 Right. 51 00:01:54,797 --> 00:01:58,007 That he had, uh, he, he said, you know, we, we are in this together. 52 00:01:58,007 --> 00:02:02,027 He'd said, um, about the photo of Virginia, um, Roberts Gire coming out 53 00:02:02,087 --> 00:02:02,957 and, you know, wins this together. 54 00:02:03,077 --> 00:02:06,227 And it, one was the one that ended, I hope we'll play again soon, but 55 00:02:06,227 --> 00:02:09,017 kind of more importantly to our purposes, it also was signed off. 56 00:02:09,330 --> 00:02:11,400 Andrew, you know, your kg right. 57 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:15,780 H hrh, Andrew Kg. So he had even in a casual email at that point, Andrew 58 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:17,160 liked to put all of his titles in it. 59 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:17,250 Right. 60 00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:19,470 So I do feel that this is a fairly fitting. 61 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:24,195 Punishment in lieu of any actual other consequences? 62 00:02:24,225 --> 00:02:24,615 Andy: Yes. 63 00:02:24,615 --> 00:02:27,315 I did read that the, one of the last people to lose the order of the 64 00:02:27,315 --> 00:02:30,415 garter was Ember Hirohito, , just after the Second World War. 65 00:02:31,225 --> 00:02:31,435 Which 66 00:02:31,435 --> 00:02:33,475 gives you an idea of the scale of the offense. 67 00:02:33,655 --> 00:02:37,924 that this is being ranked alongside, so we know he'll be moving house. 68 00:02:38,014 --> 00:02:38,104 Mm-hmm. 69 00:02:38,524 --> 00:02:40,024 Um, I mean, he may be moving to New Zealand. 70 00:02:40,024 --> 00:02:43,564 It's possible your brother will be getting some, some lookalike work before too long. 71 00:02:43,924 --> 00:02:45,214 I Dunno how much in demand that's 72 00:02:45,244 --> 00:02:45,784 gonna be 73 00:02:45,859 --> 00:02:47,959 Helen: for what party, what corporate event? 74 00:02:48,319 --> 00:02:48,559 Ian: Well, 75 00:02:48,559 --> 00:02:49,069 Halloween. 76 00:02:49,459 --> 00:02:49,669 Helen: Halloween. 77 00:02:51,634 --> 00:02:55,144 Andy: Um, but he's gonna be plain old Andrew, Mount Batten Windsor. 78 00:02:55,144 --> 00:02:55,234 Mm-hmm. 79 00:02:55,254 --> 00:02:55,404 Helen: Mm-hmm. 80 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,620 Andy: and I would just say to him, it's dangerous putting a middle 81 00:02:57,620 --> 00:02:59,660 name in your name 'cause people think you're p than you are. 82 00:03:00,170 --> 00:03:02,300 Um, but that probably won't be a problem for him. 83 00:03:02,420 --> 00:03:02,810 Um, 84 00:03:03,410 --> 00:03:03,560 now 85 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,362 the reason, the reason we're still talking about this is, 86 00:03:06,444 --> 00:03:08,064 largely of Virginia Dre's book. 87 00:03:08,094 --> 00:03:08,904 Nobody's girl. 88 00:03:08,964 --> 00:03:13,233 Uh, and she took her own life, uh, earlier this year Before the book came out. 89 00:03:13,233 --> 00:03:14,268 And it details Uh, 90 00:03:14,808 --> 00:03:15,708 her life, 91 00:03:15,784 --> 00:03:20,374 as she put it being a, a sex slave for Jeffrey Epstein, uh, procured by Ghislaine 92 00:03:20,374 --> 00:03:22,714 Maxwell, now in prison serving 20 years. 93 00:03:22,774 --> 00:03:25,864 , she says in the book that she had sex with Andrew three times claim. 94 00:03:25,864 --> 00:03:27,184 He's always denied. 95 00:03:27,688 --> 00:03:30,469 but the details that have come out in the book and the details that have come 96 00:03:30,469 --> 00:03:34,233 out and other things like the emails of him sending his Royal protection 97 00:03:34,233 --> 00:03:37,803 officer, her name and social security number, whether that's to discredit 98 00:03:37,803 --> 00:03:40,833 her account or dig up dirt on her, I think is not completely clear. 99 00:03:41,253 --> 00:03:46,083 But it, it just became clear this was no longer a sustainable situation. 100 00:03:46,113 --> 00:03:47,493 but it hasn't been for years. 101 00:03:47,493 --> 00:03:50,223 And is, is there ever a way this can be put on sustainable 102 00:03:50,223 --> 00:03:52,503 footing short of Andrew? 103 00:03:53,253 --> 00:03:53,973 cooperating 104 00:03:53,973 --> 00:03:57,303 fully with prosecutors in the America or whatever that might 105 00:03:57,467 --> 00:03:57,633 Helen: be. 106 00:03:57,933 --> 00:04:00,243 I mean, the interesting thing is lots of it has come out through either 107 00:04:00,243 --> 00:04:04,623 court, um, discovery or, uh, records being submitted to, to Congress. 108 00:04:04,863 --> 00:04:09,021 So for example, her memoir is, was co-written with a journalist. 109 00:04:09,261 --> 00:04:12,201 However bits of it are taken from a previous fictionalized account 110 00:04:12,231 --> 00:04:14,121 that she wrote that's called the Billionaires Playboy Cup. 111 00:04:14,121 --> 00:04:17,961 Now, this has become quite controversial because that wasn't fact checked. 112 00:04:18,141 --> 00:04:21,231 She herself says in the book that some, the details in that were wrong 113 00:04:21,261 --> 00:04:22,701 'cause she was trying to disguise them. 114 00:04:23,091 --> 00:04:25,371 But it has become, you're right, there has been a kind of. 115 00:04:26,076 --> 00:04:28,206 Not exactly full court press, but there have been a lot of people kind 116 00:04:28,206 --> 00:04:32,106 of questioning the whole content of her story just because of the fact that she 117 00:04:32,106 --> 00:04:33,606 has, she made mistakes along the way. 118 00:04:33,606 --> 00:04:37,124 For example, she she accused Alan Dershowitz of, of sexually assaulting it. 119 00:04:37,124 --> 00:04:38,444 They then settled that out of court. 120 00:04:38,564 --> 00:04:40,430 the American lawyer, Alan Dershowitz. 121 00:04:40,806 --> 00:04:43,206 she accepted that, uh, she had never been abused by him. 122 00:04:43,206 --> 00:04:45,216 He accepted that she'd made an honest mistake. 123 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:49,006 And if you read the memoir, it's a very difficult read for a number of reasons. 124 00:04:49,006 --> 00:04:52,696 One of which is that between it being submitted to the publishers 125 00:04:52,696 --> 00:04:56,242 and it coming out, she accused her husband, of domestic violence. 126 00:04:56,302 --> 00:04:59,782 He denies that, uh, there's litigation ongoing about the estate. 127 00:05:00,562 --> 00:05:03,352 But there were kind of clues in the, in the narrative that the 128 00:05:03,352 --> 00:05:04,612 relationship wasn't all that happy. 129 00:05:04,612 --> 00:05:07,102 There's lots of, you know, very volatile arguments. 130 00:05:07,492 --> 00:05:09,172 And of course, the other thing that comes out is that there's, 131 00:05:09,352 --> 00:05:10,942 there's money involved in this. 132 00:05:11,272 --> 00:05:15,262 You know, there's a lot of debate about the her, um, settling her estate, for 133 00:05:15,262 --> 00:05:17,062 example, and who's entitled to that. 134 00:05:17,482 --> 00:05:19,522 In the book, she writes about the fact that she, you know, she was 135 00:05:19,522 --> 00:05:22,882 living really scratchy existence in Australia until she got the settlement 136 00:05:22,882 --> 00:05:26,332 from Epstein, uh, the initial one, and then the settlement from Andrew. 137 00:05:26,812 --> 00:05:28,702 So that, you know, this really complicates it. 138 00:05:28,702 --> 00:05:31,942 And I think as you know, she also is like many abuse victims, 139 00:05:32,182 --> 00:05:33,832 obviously deeply traumatized by it. 140 00:05:33,832 --> 00:05:37,432 That's what emerges from, uh, the narrative and hasn't actually always 141 00:05:37,432 --> 00:05:41,962 made her case in a kind of completely cast iron compelling way, which 142 00:05:41,962 --> 00:05:44,862 again, is not unusual in abuse cases. 143 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,360 Ian: the people who are accusing her, um, there are other victims who 144 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,330 are saying and who are suing her, and 145 00:05:51,330 --> 00:05:54,600 then halfway through their narrative, you realize they've 146 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,210 been given $50,000 by a fund. 147 00:05:57,642 --> 00:05:58,932 they've lived their lives 148 00:05:58,992 --> 00:06:00,162 on the basis of, of 149 00:06:00,162 --> 00:06:00,882 a settlement, 150 00:06:01,092 --> 00:06:02,022 and so accusing 151 00:06:02,022 --> 00:06:03,192 each other of being 152 00:06:03,192 --> 00:06:07,672 abusers rather than victim, it turns into an incredibly sort of Messi story. 153 00:06:07,812 --> 00:06:08,862 Helen: That's one of the really Messi things. 154 00:06:08,862 --> 00:06:11,862 The Sunday Times had a piece by Rena o, who's another, um, Epstein 155 00:06:11,862 --> 00:06:15,192 victim, in which she said, you know, she's suing, um, the Gire estate. 156 00:06:15,282 --> 00:06:18,132 And she said, you know, I've been accused of, um, you know, 157 00:06:18,192 --> 00:06:19,452 procuring girls for Epstein. 158 00:06:19,602 --> 00:06:22,902 Now actually within the same piece, she admits that she did do that. 159 00:06:22,902 --> 00:06:24,792 This is one of the things that Epstein would do to women. 160 00:06:24,792 --> 00:06:26,802 He would encourage them to go out and recruit more women. 161 00:06:27,042 --> 00:06:29,262 Gire writes about that, a book and says she regrets it. 162 00:06:29,442 --> 00:06:31,572 And Rena o did the same thing. 163 00:06:31,992 --> 00:06:34,902 And obviously she says, that doesn't make me any less of a, of a victim. 164 00:06:34,902 --> 00:06:36,102 She says she was raped by Epstein. 165 00:06:36,372 --> 00:06:38,142 But it does really complicate that picture. 166 00:06:38,142 --> 00:06:41,682 Everybody needs to be very firmly for moral and financial reasons, 167 00:06:41,682 --> 00:06:44,112 end up in the kind of victim rather than collaborate to camp. 168 00:06:44,502 --> 00:06:47,352 And there was an attempt, I think, even to do that with Ghislaine Maxwell. 169 00:06:47,532 --> 00:06:50,592 So one of the more bizarre reviews of the book was the Spectator got Ian 170 00:06:50,592 --> 00:06:54,342 Maxwell Ghis Laine's brother to review it under the headline, don't Take 171 00:06:54,342 --> 00:06:56,322 Virginia Jeffery's memoir at Face Value. 172 00:06:56,487 --> 00:07:01,497 Mm. And I thought, I mean, okay, always a good thing to do in cases like 173 00:07:01,497 --> 00:07:05,907 this, but I feel like you may have a certain personal interest in this one. 174 00:07:05,907 --> 00:07:09,567 And, uh, you know, as we've written about in the magazine, the, the very strategic 175 00:07:09,567 --> 00:07:14,517 leaks ahead of the, um, the manuscript kind of coming out do all point back to 176 00:07:14,517 --> 00:07:17,907 a journalist who was one, the very few who has interviewed Maxwell in prison, 177 00:07:18,297 --> 00:07:22,377 and she got transferred from a Florida jail to one, a low security minimum 178 00:07:22,377 --> 00:07:27,225 security one in, in Texas, some point after having a conversation with a senior 179 00:07:27,225 --> 00:07:29,295 official at Trump's Department of Justice. 180 00:07:29,355 --> 00:07:32,985 So there is a kind of semi conspiracy theory, but I don't think it's a 181 00:07:32,985 --> 00:07:36,975 completely ridiculous one that actually all of this becoming a Prince Andrew 182 00:07:36,975 --> 00:07:41,025 story is actually very helpful for former friend of Jeffrey Epstein and 183 00:07:41,025 --> 00:07:42,765 current president of the US Donald Trump. 184 00:07:42,810 --> 00:07:43,050 Andy: Yes. 185 00:07:43,050 --> 00:07:45,300 Where was, where was Virginia Giuffre working when she was 186 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:46,380 first picked up by Maxwell 187 00:07:46,425 --> 00:07:47,295 Helen: Maa Largo? 188 00:07:47,355 --> 00:07:51,105 She was working in the spa in Maa Largo as, as a very young teenager. 189 00:07:51,195 --> 00:07:53,115 Um, yeah, so I mean, this is. 190 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:58,080 This is a Trump story and I've, I've covered it in the US column before because 191 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:02,430 it's been kind of fascinating how it was the massive conspiracy story and obsession 192 00:08:02,430 --> 00:08:06,330 of the MAGA Wright released the Epstein files and then Donald Trump, first of 193 00:08:06,330 --> 00:08:09,630 all, tried releasing some old fight logs that everyone had seen already, and 194 00:08:09,630 --> 00:08:10,830 then said, I've actually looked at it. 195 00:08:10,830 --> 00:08:14,940 There's nothing really to, to see, and certainly swivel Eyed FBI Director Cash 196 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:18,310 Patel out to say, well, actually, I've looked at it and it's all completely fine. 197 00:08:19,050 --> 00:08:21,960 Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very mysterious and murky story. 198 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,020 Another complication that comes out in the book is that Virginia Giuffre 199 00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:26,730 hired as a lawyer, David Boce. 200 00:08:27,270 --> 00:08:30,390 Now you may know he's an incredibly aggressive New York litigator and his 201 00:08:30,390 --> 00:08:33,690 other thing you might know of him, he's on the board of Theranos, which if you're 202 00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:37,980 interested in money stories, fraudulent blood testing, company collapsed. 203 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:39,300 Also had Rupert Murdoch on the board. 204 00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:42,210 It was a real government of all the talents, that one, but, um, 205 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:44,130 uh, 206 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:46,470 but also acted for Harvey Weinstein. 207 00:08:47,055 --> 00:08:51,915 In which capacity he renegotiated a contract with a spying agency to 208 00:08:52,005 --> 00:08:55,635 essentially do background checks on all of Harvey Weinstein's accusers and 209 00:08:55,635 --> 00:08:58,220 also the journalists who are working on the story for the New York Times. 210 00:08:58,845 --> 00:09:01,575 So you have all of this, this is, this is kind of speaks to the Andrews 211 00:09:01,575 --> 00:09:02,565 protection officer. 212 00:09:02,775 --> 00:09:03,165 Yeah. 213 00:09:03,255 --> 00:09:07,005 If you want to, you know, realistically, to get justice in a lot of these cases, 214 00:09:07,005 --> 00:09:11,895 you have to hook up with a very aggressive civil litigator because it doesn't end up 215 00:09:11,895 --> 00:09:14,505 in a criminal court before Epstein died. 216 00:09:14,505 --> 00:09:14,655 Right. 217 00:09:14,655 --> 00:09:19,545 He got those that very, very sweet plea deal in Florida, um, and then 218 00:09:19,605 --> 00:09:22,995 died in prison before seeing the inside of a, a proper criminal trial. 219 00:09:23,235 --> 00:09:27,735 So, you know, these are, these are really mucky and contested waters in which often 220 00:09:27,975 --> 00:09:33,165 there is a lot of reputation management or reputation kind of besmirching 221 00:09:33,165 --> 00:09:35,240 going on through PRS behind the scenes. 222 00:09:35,267 --> 00:09:38,987 Ian: the idea that there's unreliable narrators around in anything to do 223 00:09:38,987 --> 00:09:41,627 with the Maxwell family is hysterical. 224 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,240 Helen: I do genuinely think that that was the Ghislaine, original 225 00:09:44,270 --> 00:09:47,240 Ghislaine play was, I've been sucked into this terrible web of sin. 226 00:09:47,275 --> 00:09:50,420 I, I didn't know, and then it just became, unfortunately it teetered over 227 00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:53,600 in the face of the overwhelming evidence that, that she did know everything 228 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,660 that Epstein was going on doing, and therefore that's why she's now in prison. 229 00:09:56,885 --> 00:10:01,715 Andy: Do you think, this is really hypothetical, do you think this would've 230 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:03,290 happened, 231 00:10:03,950 --> 00:10:05,300 the Prince Andrew element of it? 232 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:08,300 If that photo had not existed and been made public of him? 233 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:11,720 Age 41 with Giuffre, then age 17? 234 00:10:11,967 --> 00:10:13,077 Helen: No, I think you are right. 235 00:10:13,077 --> 00:10:15,177 I think that concretized it in a way. 236 00:10:15,177 --> 00:10:18,267 He has always denied that that photo is, he sort of sort of vaguely talked 237 00:10:18,267 --> 00:10:20,937 about Photoshop and all this kind of stuff or you know, whatever. 238 00:10:21,237 --> 00:10:23,727 But I think people just went, oh no, you are standing next to her. 239 00:10:23,727 --> 00:10:25,107 She looks like a teenager. 240 00:10:25,107 --> 00:10:27,027 She's dressed, she talks in the book about where she's wearing these 241 00:10:27,027 --> 00:10:28,347 trousers with like horse print on. 242 00:10:28,497 --> 00:10:31,137 She's wearing the kind of things that young girls would wear, right? 243 00:10:31,137 --> 00:10:33,957 She's not a sophisticated adult at that point. 244 00:10:34,227 --> 00:10:36,267 And I think at that point people went, Ugh. 245 00:10:36,567 --> 00:10:40,617 And then in a very concrete way, it's about that photo coming out that he 246 00:10:40,617 --> 00:10:44,997 sends that absolutely killer email to Epstein that ends, let's place some more. 247 00:10:44,997 --> 00:10:48,987 We're in this together, Andy, KG, you know, so it, I 248 00:10:48,987 --> 00:10:50,547 think that photo absolutely. 249 00:10:50,877 --> 00:10:52,017 Precipitated the downfall. 250 00:10:52,017 --> 00:10:55,497 And, and, and she talks in the book, you know, she just had gone to grab, uh, an 251 00:10:55,497 --> 00:10:58,917 instant camera 'cause she wanted to record the fact she was with a, with a Prince. 252 00:10:59,067 --> 00:11:00,717 I mean, it's before the advent of the smartphone. 253 00:11:00,717 --> 00:11:04,197 So the survival of that, that photo is also quite, quite fragile. 254 00:11:04,227 --> 00:11:07,767 But I think you're right because that is the image that's used to illustrate 255 00:11:07,767 --> 00:11:09,207 every news story of it really. 256 00:11:09,207 --> 00:11:11,607 Or her holding as an adult holding that photo. 257 00:11:11,607 --> 00:11:11,847 Up 258 00:11:11,992 --> 00:11:12,002 Richard: he 259 00:11:12,352 --> 00:11:12,672 hadn't he 260 00:11:13,257 --> 00:11:14,937 until then he'd said he hadn't met her. 261 00:11:15,372 --> 00:11:18,777 And, And then after that he had to say, oh, well, I just can't remember it. 262 00:11:18,927 --> 00:11:20,577 Helen: I think that's the problem is that his story has. 263 00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:22,602 Evolved, shall we say. 264 00:11:22,812 --> 00:11:22,902 Mm-hmm. 265 00:11:23,068 --> 00:11:25,638 and also just his unbelievable tone deafness. 266 00:11:25,638 --> 00:11:28,098 I went back, did you watch when the b BBC News were covering his story? 267 00:11:28,098 --> 00:11:29,988 Obviously they're delighted to have all the clips of the, 268 00:11:30,408 --> 00:11:31,428 uh, news night interview. 269 00:11:31,428 --> 00:11:33,168 So they aired as many of them as possible. 270 00:11:33,408 --> 00:11:36,498 And then Meatless asked him, Emily Meatless asks him, do you 271 00:11:36,498 --> 00:11:37,848 regret meeting Jeffrey Epstein? 272 00:11:37,938 --> 00:11:42,138 And he thinks about it from, he thinks about it and then he says, on 273 00:11:42,138 --> 00:11:45,498 balance, no, because all the things I learned of the people that I met, 274 00:11:45,858 --> 00:11:50,328 it's the most unbelievably tone deaf performance you've ever seen. 275 00:11:50,328 --> 00:11:52,608 And actually watching it in retrospect, it's even more boggling 276 00:11:52,608 --> 00:11:54,168 now than it was at the time. 277 00:11:54,423 --> 00:11:54,693 Richard: That's up 278 00:11:54,693 --> 00:11:56,733 there with the honorable comment, isn't it? 279 00:11:56,733 --> 00:11:58,473 That it was he was doing the honorable 280 00:11:58,668 --> 00:11:59,353 Helen: So many great. 281 00:11:59,418 --> 00:12:02,718 I mean, the, the simple Shooting weekend is an incredible, the I 282 00:12:02,718 --> 00:12:05,598 don't Sweat anymore is an also an incredible, I mean, every, 283 00:12:05,953 --> 00:12:09,394 Ian: but he tried the Honorable thing again, when, he 284 00:12:09,484 --> 00:12:09,784 said 285 00:12:09,784 --> 00:12:13,654 he would voluntarily relinquish the titles and I think the Turning Point 286 00:12:14,104 --> 00:12:14,554 came. 287 00:12:14,914 --> 00:12:15,364 that, you know, 288 00:12:15,394 --> 00:12:17,914 The royals may be turned deaf, but Charles can hear someone 289 00:12:17,914 --> 00:12:19,414 shouting at him in public. 290 00:12:19,534 --> 00:12:20,944 And he's not used to 291 00:12:21,484 --> 00:12:25,294 turning up at an, uh, an ordinary event and someone shouting, 292 00:12:25,294 --> 00:12:26,524 how much did you know then? 293 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,430 it was really fast 294 00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:29,390 after that. 295 00:12:29,625 --> 00:12:32,750 And if I, if I was pushed, I would say 296 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:34,490 he decided then 297 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,080 this process of slowly acting, which, you know, the royal family 298 00:12:39,380 --> 00:12:40,460 tends to do, 299 00:12:40,969 --> 00:12:42,019 doesn't work anymore. 300 00:12:42,232 --> 00:12:45,052 flunky, who's our royal correspondent, pointed out last issue. 301 00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:49,120 a lot of royal correspondence say, no, it's incredibly difficult for him to strip 302 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:49,990 away these titles. 303 00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:50,080 And 304 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,810 you'd need a, a huge amount of parliamentary time. 305 00:12:52,810 --> 00:12:53,170 and We can't 306 00:12:53,170 --> 00:12:54,040 possibly do that. 307 00:12:54,130 --> 00:12:55,297 We actually deked 308 00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:56,920 someone once 309 00:12:57,130 --> 00:12:58,090 in the abdication. 310 00:12:58,090 --> 00:12:58,210 And 311 00:12:58,210 --> 00:13:00,820 the amount of parliamentary time was one morning. 312 00:13:01,335 --> 00:13:04,150 We, we can do this stuff if we want to. 313 00:13:04,191 --> 00:13:06,381 Andy: should say, that's the second time we've deked someone. 314 00:13:06,381 --> 00:13:10,401 And the first time was actually even faster than that in 1649. 315 00:13:10,566 --> 00:13:10,896 Helen: Oh yeah. 316 00:13:10,896 --> 00:13:12,006 I thought we were doing Charles the first. 317 00:13:12,006 --> 00:13:13,296 But you're right, we're doing it with the eighth. 318 00:13:13,326 --> 00:13:13,896 Yes. 319 00:13:14,026 --> 00:13:14,316 Andy: Okay. 320 00:13:14,316 --> 00:13:14,596 Right. 321 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:14,781 Good. 322 00:13:14,864 --> 00:13:17,136 Richard: But it, but it's the same, you know, like the post office story 323 00:13:17,136 --> 00:13:20,646 not that that couldn't really be dealt with and it was all very slow. 324 00:13:21,127 --> 00:13:24,097 until People's in Power's reputation was on the line, then 325 00:13:24,097 --> 00:13:25,627 we can act incredibly quickly. 326 00:13:25,627 --> 00:13:29,377 You know, and we can exonerate hundreds of people at one, Phil 327 00:13:29,797 --> 00:13:32,557 Helen: but this is my dicta, this is my theory of why people like dictators. 328 00:13:33,412 --> 00:13:35,812 They just like the idea that one person might be able to make a decision and 329 00:13:35,812 --> 00:13:39,202 it would actually happen and that you might have to bribe that one person, 330 00:13:39,202 --> 00:13:41,572 but at least you know the who the one person is who could make that 331 00:13:41,767 --> 00:13:41,977 Andy: decision 332 00:13:42,127 --> 00:13:42,217 Right. 333 00:13:42,217 --> 00:13:44,167 Are you saying it's anyone who's got experience of a meeting 334 00:13:44,947 --> 00:13:45,067 and 335 00:13:45,067 --> 00:13:45,397 what it's 336 00:13:45,397 --> 00:13:48,487 like is more prone to accept dictatorial rule. 337 00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:52,072 Helen: But I do, but I do, I do think there is a feeling that, you know, 338 00:13:52,132 --> 00:13:55,972 everything in modern life is so sclerotic and turd and I think it's why people 339 00:13:55,972 --> 00:13:59,542 like Trump are appealing to their base because his promise is action. 340 00:14:00,262 --> 00:14:00,502 Right? 341 00:14:00,562 --> 00:14:03,502 And, and, and actually what does, what does key star's labor offer you? 342 00:14:03,502 --> 00:14:04,492 But all we're gonna do, pip. 343 00:14:04,492 --> 00:14:06,592 No, we're not gonna do pip or we're gonna do with flu, or 344 00:14:06,592 --> 00:14:07,462 we're not gonna do winter all. 345 00:14:07,462 --> 00:14:09,022 We've got these taxes or we're not gonna do taxes. 346 00:14:09,351 --> 00:14:11,722 And that's why I think people just go, I wish something would happen. 347 00:14:11,932 --> 00:14:14,302 Unfortunately, when it does happen, it's often bad. 348 00:14:16,627 --> 00:14:16,957 Andy: Right 349 00:14:17,017 --> 00:14:19,596 now let's come to, very excitingly. 350 00:14:19,626 --> 00:14:22,206 There is a new column in private eye. 351 00:14:22,236 --> 00:14:25,356 It's in the back of the magazine, confusingly just 352 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:27,006 after the, In The Back section. 353 00:14:27,466 --> 00:14:33,676 , and it's In The Money and it comes after the, , very, very long running, , in 354 00:14:33,676 --> 00:14:38,478 the city Column, has ended and that was written by Slicker for many years. 355 00:14:38,628 --> 00:14:41,118 This new one is written by Gold Digger. 356 00:14:41,538 --> 00:14:46,338 And Richard, I understand that Gold Digger is you, et al, 357 00:14:46,421 --> 00:14:46,781 Richard: Yeah. 358 00:14:46,781 --> 00:14:46,991 Uh, 359 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:49,331 I didn't realize I'd be outed after one issue, 360 00:14:49,391 --> 00:14:49,781 but yeah. 361 00:14:49,871 --> 00:14:49,991 Sorry. 362 00:14:50,231 --> 00:14:50,771 Yes, 363 00:14:51,221 --> 00:14:51,731 it's, 364 00:14:51,731 --> 00:14:52,828 um, collection 365 00:14:52,828 --> 00:14:57,298 of financial stories that I'll be writing and pulling together 366 00:14:57,298 --> 00:14:58,498 from other people as well. 367 00:14:58,498 --> 00:15:02,154 Andy: The lead story in the latest, issue of the mag was about, uh, sanctions on 368 00:15:02,154 --> 00:15:05,561 Russian firms or on Russian Shipping and how often they're actually enforced. 369 00:15:06,204 --> 00:15:09,474 And what kind of fines are dished out even on the rare occasions that people 370 00:15:09,474 --> 00:15:11,754 are found guilty of, this kind of thing. 371 00:15:11,754 --> 00:15:15,909 And it's kind of staggering the, the scale of the sums that are 372 00:15:16,149 --> 00:15:18,737 dipped out in fines compared with the scale of the, the offense. 373 00:15:19,044 --> 00:15:19,434 Richard: Yeah. 374 00:15:19,434 --> 00:15:21,834 I mean, I mean, like a lot of the stuff we do elsewhere in the 375 00:15:21,834 --> 00:15:26,934 mag, it's, it's about showing the reality uh, against what we're told. 376 00:15:27,114 --> 00:15:27,714 Is happening. 377 00:15:27,714 --> 00:15:32,154 So with sanctions, we've been told several times that we're, we're 378 00:15:32,454 --> 00:15:36,134 stopping the, the Putin war machine, he won't have any money to spend. 379 00:15:36,644 --> 00:15:40,857 And then, years on you find that, oh, we've, we've gotta do something else. 380 00:15:40,897 --> 00:15:44,137 You know, that machine we stopped 18 months ago, we're gonna stop it again. 381 00:15:44,467 --> 00:15:44,947 You know, 382 00:15:44,947 --> 00:15:47,167 so that kind of, that's where we are with sanctions 383 00:15:47,267 --> 00:15:50,747 Andy: and we should say, you have a lot of experience of this because of your, 384 00:15:51,302 --> 00:15:51,702 c can we 385 00:15:51,702 --> 00:15:52,622 call it a dark past 386 00:15:53,072 --> 00:15:53,252 Helen: as a 387 00:15:53,357 --> 00:15:54,007 Richard: Yeah, you can. 388 00:15:54,297 --> 00:15:55,207 shady, which part? 389 00:15:55,307 --> 00:15:55,727 Andy: shady 390 00:15:55,727 --> 00:15:56,167 Richard: history 391 00:15:56,372 --> 00:15:57,242 Helen: as a bank robber. 392 00:15:57,782 --> 00:15:58,022 Yeah. 393 00:15:58,067 --> 00:15:59,087 Andy: Working for HMRC. 394 00:15:59,612 --> 00:16:00,062 Richard: Yeah. 395 00:16:00,392 --> 00:16:02,822 Until, uh, 20 years ago. 396 00:16:03,103 --> 00:16:04,873 Ian: I mean, you were part of the blob, weren't you? 397 00:16:05,143 --> 00:16:07,063 Richard: Well, I think I'm part of a smaller blob 398 00:16:07,063 --> 00:16:07,363 now. 399 00:16:09,493 --> 00:16:10,003 slightly, 400 00:16:10,423 --> 00:16:11,135 Helen: Let a more of a puddle, 401 00:16:11,242 --> 00:16:14,812 Ian: I always felt that put you in quite a strong position as a journalist. 402 00:16:15,136 --> 00:16:19,159 cause you know how it works or it doesn't work in so many cases. 403 00:16:19,313 --> 00:16:23,633 Richard: back then when I stopped being a tax inspector, and started 404 00:16:23,633 --> 00:16:27,965 working for the eye, there was a sort of prevailing mood and attempt really 405 00:16:27,965 --> 00:16:30,335 to stop tax collection working almost. 406 00:16:30,335 --> 00:16:32,135 It was sort of politically unpopular. 407 00:16:32,135 --> 00:16:37,145 It was, you know, it wasn't very nice to to people who were dodging their taxes. 408 00:16:37,175 --> 00:16:40,415 It wasn't, wasn't in the sort of partnership spirit of the day. 409 00:16:41,083 --> 00:16:45,846 so there were a lot of, um, cushy deals for big companies, and people hiding their 410 00:16:45,846 --> 00:16:47,706 money in Switzerland and places like that. 411 00:16:48,263 --> 00:16:50,724 and without going into too many details and getting into any 412 00:16:50,724 --> 00:16:55,365 trouble, uh, it was that kind of thing that led to me, changing job. 413 00:16:55,371 --> 00:16:57,181 Helen: can I ask you a question about tax, which is not 414 00:16:57,181 --> 00:16:58,681 actually a bit a help on my VAT 415 00:16:58,741 --> 00:16:59,551 Richard: this could be difficult. 416 00:16:59,551 --> 00:17:00,061 It is 20 417 00:17:00,061 --> 00:17:00,311 Helen: years ago. 418 00:17:00,316 --> 00:17:00,736 Oh, no, no. 419 00:17:00,736 --> 00:17:00,816 no. 420 00:17:00,936 --> 00:17:03,691 I. About our tax code now, actually. 421 00:17:03,691 --> 00:17:03,751 Yeah. 422 00:17:04,081 --> 00:17:05,161 Is it too complicated? 423 00:17:05,221 --> 00:17:07,591 'cause one of the things I think that happened, Rachel Reeves, as 424 00:17:07,591 --> 00:17:10,261 we're talking, has just got in trouble with her registration as a 425 00:17:10,261 --> 00:17:11,731 landlord for renting out her property. 426 00:17:11,731 --> 00:17:11,791 Yeah. 427 00:17:11,791 --> 00:17:14,491 Obviously Angela Aina previously in trouble about council 428 00:17:14,491 --> 00:17:15,541 tax on her second home. 429 00:17:15,931 --> 00:17:20,041 Nan Howie was in, you know, had to settle a very large bill with HMRC. 430 00:17:20,671 --> 00:17:23,551 Should we have any kind of sympathy with politicians who run into 431 00:17:23,551 --> 00:17:27,331 tax problems or are you, are you cold hearted about all of this 432 00:17:27,451 --> 00:17:31,561 Richard: No, I'm, No, I, I think, you know, there is room for some sympathy. 433 00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:34,630 administratively, it is, it is complicated. 434 00:17:35,182 --> 00:17:37,282 one of those I wouldn't have any sympathy with Nadine 435 00:17:37,282 --> 00:17:37,672 Zahar. 436 00:17:37,672 --> 00:17:39,832 We, I mean, I'd draw the line there. 437 00:17:40,282 --> 00:17:46,297 Um, and you know, and also Rachel Reeves, I think, you know, she should 438 00:17:46,327 --> 00:17:47,647 probably have been a bit more careful. 439 00:17:47,647 --> 00:17:49,597 She should be saying, look, I'm chancellor, are we sure 440 00:17:49,597 --> 00:17:50,527 we've got all this right? 441 00:17:50,868 --> 00:17:53,418 her husband found some emails and she probably should have been saying. 442 00:17:53,418 --> 00:17:55,668 are we sure We've, we've done everything we need to. 443 00:17:55,698 --> 00:17:56,118 'cause it's, 444 00:17:56,628 --> 00:17:56,928 it's not 445 00:17:56,928 --> 00:17:59,432 the first little mistake that she's made. 446 00:17:59,432 --> 00:17:59,732 Is it? 447 00:18:00,002 --> 00:18:01,052 You know, when you look at her, 448 00:18:01,862 --> 00:18:02,132 uh, 449 00:18:02,132 --> 00:18:03,032 the book she wrote 450 00:18:03,512 --> 00:18:04,757 Helen: and the slightly puffed up cv. 451 00:18:04,922 --> 00:18:06,182 Richard: the puffed up cv. 452 00:18:06,212 --> 00:18:08,912 You know, there's a kind of string of these now 453 00:18:08,912 --> 00:18:10,586 Ian: and it's a bit rich, 454 00:18:10,706 --> 00:18:14,696 you know, post Boris, who we all had to go at about detail to say, look, we're 455 00:18:14,696 --> 00:18:19,076 in government, we're detail this I mean, that, that's what we wanted this time 456 00:18:19,376 --> 00:18:19,586 Richard: isn't it? 457 00:18:19,586 --> 00:18:19,886 Yeah. 458 00:18:19,946 --> 00:18:20,156 Yeah. 459 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:21,536 And the question to detail Yeah. 460 00:18:21,536 --> 00:18:23,636 And the question for them is, how would you have reacted if 461 00:18:23,636 --> 00:18:25,256 Boris Johnson had done this? 462 00:18:25,526 --> 00:18:28,477 You know, I think that's a valid question. 463 00:18:28,606 --> 00:18:29,686 Andy: we've got this budget coming up, 464 00:18:29,937 --> 00:18:32,397 and lots of people are getting their defenses in early. 465 00:18:33,027 --> 00:18:33,597 All sorts 466 00:18:33,597 --> 00:18:36,207 of special pleading articles and columns are being written, why 467 00:18:36,207 --> 00:18:38,847 you cannot possibly tax blah. 468 00:18:38,922 --> 00:18:38,982 Yeah. 469 00:18:39,582 --> 00:18:40,152 Small sector. 470 00:18:40,152 --> 00:18:42,132 But I saw a piece of the weekend, which was all about how. 471 00:18:42,492 --> 00:18:46,182 Actually, if you tax the gambling industry anymore, betting shops will have to close. 472 00:18:46,182 --> 00:18:49,867 And they are an absolute lifeline for, elderly, vulnerable, 473 00:18:49,867 --> 00:18:51,547 often very lonely, frequently 474 00:18:51,547 --> 00:18:52,057 men. 475 00:18:52,177 --> 00:18:54,397 Helen: saw that article, it was like they were running some kind 476 00:18:54,397 --> 00:18:56,287 of like rotary club or something. 477 00:18:56,287 --> 00:18:58,507 I was like, what you do is you get these people in and then you 478 00:18:58,507 --> 00:19:01,657 keep them in as much as you can in order for them to spend money. 479 00:19:01,657 --> 00:19:02,587 Like come off it. 480 00:19:02,647 --> 00:19:05,497 Andy: It's a kind of like, and I'm sure a lot of people who've been 481 00:19:05,497 --> 00:19:08,167 going there every day for 20 years do find it really valuable and would be 482 00:19:08,167 --> 00:19:09,817 incredibly sad if it was closed down. 483 00:19:09,817 --> 00:19:13,057 But that's not really the point of the gambling industry or paying tax. 484 00:19:13,087 --> 00:19:13,537 So 485 00:19:13,588 --> 00:19:14,548 Ian: you're gonna say that about 486 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:14,818 Andy: pubs, 487 00:19:15,323 --> 00:19:15,673 right? 488 00:19:16,797 --> 00:19:19,647 given the incredibly complicated tax system that we do have, 'cause there 489 00:19:19,647 --> 00:19:22,797 are, it, it is complicated and there are lots of different loopholes. 490 00:19:23,111 --> 00:19:27,041 Is it possible for a radical change to happen in the budget that's 491 00:19:27,041 --> 00:19:28,151 coming up in a few weeks time? 492 00:19:28,796 --> 00:19:30,386 Richard: No, it's not possible in the budget. 493 00:19:30,926 --> 00:19:32,396 That's, It's a longer term job. 494 00:19:32,756 --> 00:19:32,876 Right. 495 00:19:33,008 --> 00:19:37,521 the problem with the budget, as with, you know, every budget for, for decades 496 00:19:37,521 --> 00:19:40,101 now, is that they're very constrained. 497 00:19:40,563 --> 00:19:43,383 Rachel Reeves and uh, predecessors are working with the office of 498 00:19:43,383 --> 00:19:46,743 budget responsibility, which takes a very conservative view of the 499 00:19:46,743 --> 00:19:49,307 effects of, economic measures. 500 00:19:49,517 --> 00:19:55,347 So it sort of hems her in and she, she's left tinkering, you know, looking at 501 00:19:55,661 --> 00:19:58,039 Differences of 10 billion here, 5 billion here. 502 00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:02,839 What's gonna raise this, what's gonna give away that over a pretty short term, over 503 00:20:02,839 --> 00:20:03,469 a forecast 504 00:20:03,469 --> 00:20:04,962 period that's four or five years. 505 00:20:05,685 --> 00:20:10,905 so it's very difficult to take the kind of steps that you would need to transform 506 00:20:10,905 --> 00:20:12,705 the system and which might pay off. 507 00:20:12,735 --> 00:20:14,385 in 10, 20 years. 508 00:20:14,985 --> 00:20:18,654 Um, but, you know, and this not just in terms of the tax system itself, but 509 00:20:18,654 --> 00:20:20,484 the whole, you know, economic system. 510 00:20:20,484 --> 00:20:22,584 So it's very difficult to 511 00:20:22,725 --> 00:20:27,010 launch a big investment program and expect credit from that because the, 512 00:20:27,015 --> 00:20:30,705 the o B's gonna say, well, we can't be sure for the next three or four years. 513 00:20:31,086 --> 00:20:34,813 you look at changes to employment rights, there's a very good argument 514 00:20:34,813 --> 00:20:38,893 that stronger employment rights in the long run will be good for growth. 515 00:20:39,313 --> 00:20:40,843 You'll have a higher wage economy, 516 00:20:41,005 --> 00:20:42,902 better industrial relations and so on. 517 00:20:43,963 --> 00:20:46,423 Yeah, there are people lobbying and then they might have the way 518 00:20:46,423 --> 00:20:47,893 the tour is lobbying to say no. 519 00:20:48,043 --> 00:20:50,946 The OBR has to say that's gonna hit growth. 520 00:20:51,793 --> 00:20:54,829 And, and it may well do in the next two or three years. 521 00:20:54,997 --> 00:20:57,157 Ian: But the office of budget responsibility is 522 00:20:57,408 --> 00:20:58,218 presumably 523 00:20:59,093 --> 00:20:59,253 advisory. 524 00:21:00,063 --> 00:21:02,733 Um, it's not an entirely democratic institution, is it? 525 00:21:02,878 --> 00:21:05,788 we don't have to do what they say on the grounds 526 00:21:05,788 --> 00:21:05,998 that, 527 00:21:06,077 --> 00:21:06,257 Richard: well, 528 00:21:06,257 --> 00:21:06,752 they've, it, 529 00:21:06,887 --> 00:21:07,067 it 530 00:21:07,202 --> 00:21:08,042 Ian: vote for them, did 531 00:21:08,057 --> 00:21:08,207 Richard: we? 532 00:21:08,417 --> 00:21:10,847 It should be, but we've given them so much power. 533 00:21:11,256 --> 00:21:15,648 and if you don't do what, conforms to, to, to what they think, uh, then 534 00:21:15,648 --> 00:21:17,268 you end up in a Liz Trust position. 535 00:21:17,478 --> 00:21:17,658 Yes. 536 00:21:17,823 --> 00:21:18,123 Ian: Um, 537 00:21:18,123 --> 00:21:19,023 I'm not entirely 538 00:21:19,023 --> 00:21:19,653 advocating 539 00:21:19,653 --> 00:21:19,953 that, 540 00:21:20,008 --> 00:21:20,228 but, 541 00:21:20,313 --> 00:21:20,553 but there 542 00:21:20,553 --> 00:21:21,663 is, I'm just questioning its 543 00:21:21,663 --> 00:21:22,134 role 544 00:21:22,288 --> 00:21:22,738 Richard: That's right. 545 00:21:22,738 --> 00:21:26,488 It has been given a really central role, and Rachel Reeves has made it even more 546 00:21:26,488 --> 00:21:29,638 important by putting in law that you must consult whenever you have a big 547 00:21:29,638 --> 00:21:31,468 announcement, you must consult the OBR. 548 00:21:31,618 --> 00:21:34,438 You probably should do that anyway, but you should also 549 00:21:34,798 --> 00:21:36,448 recognize it's not the only view. 550 00:21:37,513 --> 00:21:43,108 And, and then, and there's probably a case for not leaving it just to 551 00:21:43,108 --> 00:21:47,638 the OBR to do the fiscal and economic forecasts, the official ones to, 552 00:21:47,728 --> 00:21:49,078 to have the treasury do them again. 553 00:21:49,078 --> 00:21:52,528 Of course they're going to be politicized, but have them have the opposition to them. 554 00:21:52,528 --> 00:21:52,708 right. 555 00:21:52,708 --> 00:21:53,998 Have a range of views. 556 00:21:54,418 --> 00:21:57,328 So you you can say, well look, this is our view and we think these 557 00:21:57,898 --> 00:22:02,013 longer term measures we're taking, whether it's on investment education, 558 00:22:03,173 --> 00:22:03,533 simplifying 559 00:22:03,568 --> 00:22:07,048 the tax system, we think they will work over 10, 20 years. 560 00:22:07,828 --> 00:22:10,768 , and then let somebody else make the, the opposing argument. 561 00:22:11,308 --> 00:22:12,838 But at the moment, having one very 562 00:22:13,438 --> 00:22:16,738 small C conservative body hold sway, 563 00:22:16,810 --> 00:22:20,087 you know, he is, he is given us this sort of sclerotic system where 564 00:22:20,087 --> 00:22:21,324 we can't actually do anything. 565 00:22:21,357 --> 00:22:25,022 Helen: do you think this has been one of the most frenetic pre-budget 566 00:22:25,142 --> 00:22:26,282 periods that you can remember? 567 00:22:26,282 --> 00:22:29,732 I'm just trying to think whether or not I've just dipped outta British politics 568 00:22:29,732 --> 00:22:32,192 for the last couple of years and therefore I've kind of forgotten the horror of it. 569 00:22:32,402 --> 00:22:34,172 But this one seems to have been really. 570 00:22:34,742 --> 00:22:36,842 Really frenetic, you know, all the things that have been floated, like 571 00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:40,682 doubling the top two bands of council tax, you know, deciding that working 572 00:22:40,682 --> 00:22:44,102 people ca is only people earning 45,000 pounds or under a year. 573 00:22:44,102 --> 00:22:46,742 So you can put tax over that swapping, you know, national 574 00:22:46,742 --> 00:22:48,302 insurance and income tax burdens. 575 00:22:48,332 --> 00:22:53,072 Uh, what else have they, they've talked about an exit tax for, high income, 576 00:22:53,192 --> 00:22:55,802 you know, but it's just, it just feels like there's, they always say, they say 577 00:22:55,802 --> 00:22:58,502 there's kind of kite fly, they all the, like the big budget cliches, right? 578 00:22:58,502 --> 00:23:00,992 You move from kite flying to rolling the pitch to the rabbit. 579 00:23:01,532 --> 00:23:04,742 Like that's so that's the usual way that it proceeds, but it just seems 580 00:23:04,742 --> 00:23:09,002 to me that there seems to be something very torrid going on this year. 581 00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:12,170 Richard: It's got that feeling, you know, like Christmas getting earlier every year. 582 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:12,470 hasn't it? 583 00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:16,832 You know, pre-budget, everybody's trying out their pet idea. 584 00:23:16,952 --> 00:23:17,102 Yeah. 585 00:23:17,192 --> 00:23:19,142 And it's, the media have a big part. 586 00:23:19,142 --> 00:23:19,832 in it As well. 587 00:23:19,832 --> 00:23:19,952 You know, 588 00:23:20,047 --> 00:23:21,787 Helen: well, it's like football transfer system, isn't it? 589 00:23:21,787 --> 00:23:22,867 For nerds, basically. 590 00:23:22,867 --> 00:23:25,837 And that you, it's Unfalsifiable that may, like Rachel Ree may be 591 00:23:25,837 --> 00:23:28,777 considering any number of things, and no one can her say she's 592 00:23:29,019 --> 00:23:29,165 Andy: but 593 00:23:29,165 --> 00:23:32,970 Richard: You're, you're in a sort of state of almost constant speculation, which 594 00:23:32,970 --> 00:23:37,407 isn't good for, economic decisions, people investing, people employing, people. 595 00:23:37,407 --> 00:23:39,132 It's, you know, this uncertainty, 596 00:23:39,232 --> 00:23:41,272 Ian: This was the point of the Perder system. 597 00:23:42,172 --> 00:23:42,232 Yeah. 598 00:23:42,292 --> 00:23:44,812 You know, which is when some of us were growing up, obviously, 599 00:23:45,022 --> 00:23:48,832 um, that nothing was said about it and then it was announced. 600 00:23:49,042 --> 00:23:49,252 Yeah. 601 00:23:49,257 --> 00:23:51,322 Then you could criticize it or you could not like it. 602 00:23:51,502 --> 00:23:55,847 Now we have a system where you seem to be saying, let's, get public 603 00:23:55,847 --> 00:23:57,557 opinion to all these Yeah, yeah. 604 00:23:57,617 --> 00:23:59,417 Um, ideas for months beforehand. 605 00:23:59,597 --> 00:24:00,047 And there was a 606 00:24:00,437 --> 00:24:01,457 Joke piece in the last 607 00:24:01,457 --> 00:24:01,757 issue. 608 00:24:01,757 --> 00:24:03,047 And if, if you want public 609 00:24:03,047 --> 00:24:05,837 opinion, it's that nobody wants to pay any more 610 00:24:05,837 --> 00:24:06,227 tax. 611 00:24:06,227 --> 00:24:06,437 Thank 612 00:24:06,437 --> 00:24:07,127 you very much. 613 00:24:07,187 --> 00:24:09,047 They want everyone else to pay more tax. 614 00:24:09,047 --> 00:24:10,247 That is acceptable. 615 00:24:10,277 --> 00:24:10,337 Yeah. 616 00:24:10,637 --> 00:24:14,207 But you can't make policy on the grounds that everybody else should pay more. 617 00:24:14,537 --> 00:24:16,577 Um, and if you float those ideas, 618 00:24:16,937 --> 00:24:17,147 and 619 00:24:17,147 --> 00:24:19,847 particularly with the press and the media at the moment, you will get 620 00:24:20,117 --> 00:24:22,667 everyone saying, no, that won't work. 621 00:24:23,222 --> 00:24:23,582 Before 622 00:24:23,582 --> 00:24:27,992 they've listened to the idea, any amount of tax raising will be followed 623 00:24:27,992 --> 00:24:29,192 by someone saying, I don't want 624 00:24:29,192 --> 00:24:29,492 this. 625 00:24:29,702 --> 00:24:29,972 So 626 00:24:30,122 --> 00:24:31,622 what I don't understand is why you 627 00:24:31,622 --> 00:24:31,892 don't 628 00:24:32,582 --> 00:24:35,792 get to a system where the chancellor says, this is what we're doing. 629 00:24:35,972 --> 00:24:36,632 That's it for a 630 00:24:36,717 --> 00:24:36,857 Andy: year. 631 00:24:36,917 --> 00:24:41,250 But this happened, this happened last time with the, Rachel Reeves ICER grab. 632 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,980 Which turned out to be largely a US three, but it was proceeded by 633 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:47,310 weeks and weeks of people saying, well, this is how to, you know, save 634 00:24:47,310 --> 00:24:49,050 yourself from Rachel Reeves', ICER tax. 635 00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:49,350 Richard: ICER 636 00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:50,190 we've got that's going on. 637 00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:50,880 Now again, 638 00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:51,420 Andy: yeah. 639 00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:52,440 But it happened last year. 640 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,350 and It was Move all your money out of ISIS now immediately, and then, 641 00:24:55,376 --> 00:24:58,106 Richard: Either you do what Ian says and you have per, and you 642 00:24:58,106 --> 00:25:02,186 just make the announcement on budget day or six weeks in advance. 643 00:25:02,366 --> 00:25:05,756 You have a proper discussion about what's possible and get people's views. 644 00:25:06,299 --> 00:25:10,499 what we have now is this sort of leaks and oh, let's float this idea. 645 00:25:10,499 --> 00:25:12,449 And then the minister goes on, the. 646 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,070 Coonsburg show, says, oh, I couldn't possibly comment on the budget, you know, 647 00:25:17,070 --> 00:25:19,980 having leaked umpteen possible ideas. 648 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:20,520 Yeah. 649 00:25:20,563 --> 00:25:20,773 Helen: Yes. 650 00:25:20,773 --> 00:25:24,553 The words refuses to rule out, suddenly start appearing a news copy with 651 00:25:24,643 --> 00:25:26,203 horrifying frequency, don't they? 652 00:25:26,473 --> 00:25:26,533 Yeah. 653 00:25:26,563 --> 00:25:28,993 But I also think it's a reflection of the fact that the, the media 654 00:25:28,993 --> 00:25:31,933 is only representative of one particularly quite small slice 655 00:25:31,933 --> 00:25:33,493 of British public opinion, right? 656 00:25:33,823 --> 00:25:36,583 I mean, I like you, I've read a lot of pieces about isis. 657 00:25:36,583 --> 00:25:39,223 I've read a lot of pieces about the a hundred grand cliff edge, you 658 00:25:39,223 --> 00:25:41,083 know, all of this kind of stuff. 659 00:25:41,173 --> 00:25:44,713 But I haven't read so much stuff about the fact that one of the big economic stories 660 00:25:44,713 --> 00:25:47,383 of the last couple of years is the fact of wage compression at the bottom end. 661 00:25:47,743 --> 00:25:51,643 That the minimum wage has now, you know, been raised so high that it now basically 662 00:25:51,643 --> 00:25:53,833 is the same as a graduate starting salary. 663 00:25:54,223 --> 00:25:56,563 So there's almost no benefit really for those people and 664 00:25:56,563 --> 00:25:57,403 having gone to university. 665 00:25:57,403 --> 00:26:00,103 So they're starting on essentially minimum wage, but with a huge debt. 666 00:26:00,343 --> 00:26:03,193 And you don't get that written a lot because those, those people foolishly 667 00:26:03,193 --> 00:26:06,528 are watching TikTok rather than buying the Times and the telegraph. 668 00:26:06,563 --> 00:26:09,173 Andy: there's this other thing, the sort of tinkering with smaller. 669 00:26:09,293 --> 00:26:11,993 Ingredients of, of the overall tax pie. 670 00:26:12,893 --> 00:26:13,553 Bad analogy. 671 00:26:13,891 --> 00:26:14,093 Helen: Um, 672 00:26:14,093 --> 00:26:16,073 ' well, no, cause a tax pasty, that's, that's 673 00:26:16,073 --> 00:26:16,433 where, that's 674 00:26:16,433 --> 00:26:16,673 Andy: God. 675 00:26:16,673 --> 00:26:18,383 Don't, we can't get back into pasties. 676 00:26:18,443 --> 00:26:23,273 Um, but this, so one example of it is the, the now ancient tradition of freezing fuel 677 00:26:23,273 --> 00:26:23,783 duty. 678 00:26:23,788 --> 00:26:24,173 Yeah, yeah. 679 00:26:24,203 --> 00:26:27,113 Which has been going on, I think it's 14 years in a row. 680 00:26:27,143 --> 00:26:28,163 The chancellor sort of said, 681 00:26:28,823 --> 00:26:29,003 I'm 682 00:26:29,003 --> 00:26:30,863 freezing fuel duty and everyone cheers. 683 00:26:30,863 --> 00:26:34,458 And, you know, huge relief, which is basically to keep drivers on 684 00:26:34,458 --> 00:26:36,511 side 'cause they're an important part of the electorate, whatever. 685 00:26:36,687 --> 00:26:37,588 Richard: but it's a fiddle, 686 00:26:37,648 --> 00:26:41,938 it's part of the fiddle because the projections assume that it will be 687 00:26:41,938 --> 00:26:43,498 increased in line with inflation. 688 00:26:44,638 --> 00:26:48,508 But of course it isn't going to be, it's just, it's just a fiddle for 689 00:26:48,598 --> 00:26:52,138 the chancellor of the day and none of them have been able to, to resist 690 00:26:52,153 --> 00:26:52,243 Andy: it. 691 00:26:52,303 --> 00:26:52,693 Right. 692 00:26:52,723 --> 00:26:53,023 But it's 693 00:26:53,023 --> 00:26:57,193 gonna break down at some point because if the, if you know, if cars do increasingly 694 00:26:57,193 --> 00:27:00,553 go electric, you won't get nearly as much fuel duty even at the frozen rate. 695 00:27:01,003 --> 00:27:03,073 At some point you're gonna need to change that system over and 696 00:27:03,073 --> 00:27:05,293 be a bit radical and reform it. 697 00:27:05,683 --> 00:27:07,093 To move to some kind of, like, Yeah. 698 00:27:07,093 --> 00:27:09,943 if you're using the road per mile, that's the tax you pay. 699 00:27:10,453 --> 00:27:10,603 Yeah. 700 00:27:10,633 --> 00:27:10,903 There just 701 00:27:10,903 --> 00:27:11,443 seems to be no 702 00:27:11,443 --> 00:27:12,733 appetite for a kind of bigger 703 00:27:12,778 --> 00:27:13,078 Richard: change. 704 00:27:13,078 --> 00:27:13,378 that, that's, 705 00:27:13,378 --> 00:27:13,678 why 706 00:27:13,678 --> 00:27:16,798 this short term view is, is so dangerous. 707 00:27:16,798 --> 00:27:19,498 because you, can't deal with bigger changes in the world. 708 00:27:19,768 --> 00:27:19,888 Right. 709 00:27:19,948 --> 00:27:23,499 You know, like the change to electric vehicles or increasing 710 00:27:23,499 --> 00:27:25,329 value of property, for example. 711 00:27:25,479 --> 00:27:28,539 You know, which ought to be taxed more when it's not used. 712 00:27:28,719 --> 00:27:30,129 We can't sort of deal with that. 713 00:27:30,369 --> 00:27:30,579 Yeah. 714 00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:31,989 Ian: Rising property, 715 00:27:31,989 --> 00:27:32,979 prices is. 716 00:27:33,159 --> 00:27:34,334 It's not that recent, is it? 717 00:27:34,834 --> 00:27:35,054 No. 718 00:27:35,124 --> 00:27:35,414 Well, 719 00:27:35,679 --> 00:27:38,534 I mean we've had a few decades to, to tweak this one. 720 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,310 Helen: but then you get the story about the pension who lives alone in a million 721 00:27:41,310 --> 00:27:42,900 pound house and is, what's the phrase? 722 00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:44,760 It's always asset rich and cash poor. 723 00:27:44,957 --> 00:27:48,077 My big moan about the lack of the fancy economics of the budget is, 724 00:27:48,107 --> 00:27:51,527 is about fiscal drag, which is the fact that the rates for higher and 725 00:27:51,527 --> 00:27:54,467 additional rate tax have remained in place for a really long time, even 726 00:27:54,467 --> 00:27:57,497 though inflation has, has massively eroded the value of those salaries. 727 00:27:57,677 --> 00:28:00,677 So people are now paying those higher tax rates at the equivalent of like 728 00:28:00,857 --> 00:28:04,697 a mid to senior range nurse is now a higher rate taxpayer in Britain. 729 00:28:04,877 --> 00:28:08,237 If they had moved up with inflation, Rachel Reeves would be looking at 730 00:28:08,237 --> 00:28:12,197 finding billions and billions more so we can sort of say, you know, about 731 00:28:12,407 --> 00:28:14,057 the income tax thresholds essentially. 732 00:28:14,057 --> 00:28:16,697 Lots of people are paying way more income tax than they were a decade 733 00:28:16,697 --> 00:28:18,077 ago just because of fiscal drag. 734 00:28:18,134 --> 00:28:20,963 Richard: but that goes back to how, you, what you have to say to get. 735 00:28:20,963 --> 00:28:23,393 elected Or what they think you have to say to get elected. 736 00:28:23,423 --> 00:28:25,523 I won't raise the rate of income tax. 737 00:28:26,033 --> 00:28:29,543 And you know, you raise the same money with this fiscal drag thing, 738 00:28:29,993 --> 00:28:33,803 Um, but you I'd just be interested to know what would, if somebody actually 739 00:28:33,803 --> 00:28:37,193 tried as an experiment, being a bit more honest about what they were gonna do and 740 00:28:37,193 --> 00:28:40,943 said, you know what, if we need to, I'll put a penny on the rate of income tax. 741 00:28:40,943 --> 00:28:44,295 Or, Or it might even be two p. would that be electoral suicide? 742 00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:48,980 Helen: I would say didn't someone do it in a penny on ash insurance ated for the NHS? 743 00:28:48,985 --> 00:28:50,930 I can't remember whether that was, I wanna say Gordon Brown, but I dunno if 744 00:28:50,930 --> 00:28:54,710 I, but I think when there's a tax rise for a thing, and I think one of the ways 745 00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:57,740 that they probably could have done it is coming out of COVID Gone, my goal, we 746 00:28:57,740 --> 00:29:00,980 spent a lot of money on all of that, and actually we are just gonna need to pay. 747 00:29:00,980 --> 00:29:04,790 Here's a time limited measure with the sunset clause to pay back some of that. 748 00:29:05,150 --> 00:29:07,490 But there was a kind of, that was one of the things that has baffled me about 749 00:29:07,490 --> 00:29:10,040 economics in the last couple of years is that we came out of COVID having 750 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,960 borrowed all this money, but not. 751 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,080 At any point recognizing that there was a bill for that. 752 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:15,230 Right. 753 00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:18,046 That it was just seems that that could be, all this talk about the benefits 754 00:29:18,046 --> 00:29:20,536 bill and the number of people that have worked, that is a really, really 755 00:29:20,536 --> 00:29:23,326 a big spike of people, particularly mental health conditions post COVID. 756 00:29:23,536 --> 00:29:25,906 And again, I think you can see that as a legacy of COVID. 757 00:29:25,906 --> 00:29:29,416 Lots of people had a really tough time and they've really struggled coming out of it. 758 00:29:29,566 --> 00:29:32,146 But we haven't treated this as kind of extraordinary times. 759 00:29:32,146 --> 00:29:35,021 We haven't treated the war in Ukraine as extraordinary times. 760 00:29:35,491 --> 00:29:35,701 Ian: No. 761 00:29:35,701 --> 00:29:41,431 And nobody has, as you say, suggested, um, we have to put up income tax to pay for 762 00:29:41,431 --> 00:29:41,881 COVID. 763 00:29:42,241 --> 00:29:42,301 Yeah. 764 00:29:42,571 --> 00:29:44,401 For all the damage that was done then. 765 00:29:44,682 --> 00:29:45,822 I think we should maybe 766 00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:46,272 have an 767 00:29:46,512 --> 00:29:46,872 office 768 00:29:46,872 --> 00:29:48,582 of political responsibility, that 769 00:29:49,392 --> 00:29:53,052 says during, um, the election period, I'm afraid you have to say 770 00:29:53,052 --> 00:29:54,312 that you're gonna put taxes up. 771 00:29:54,803 --> 00:29:56,693 otherwise, um, you're not being honest. 772 00:29:56,693 --> 00:30:01,621 So, uh, the OPR demands, that you all say two p straight away. 773 00:30:01,891 --> 00:30:03,061 I mean, these things 774 00:30:03,061 --> 00:30:04,151 are not, impossible. 775 00:30:04,206 --> 00:30:04,887 Richard: Would You wanna chair 776 00:30:04,887 --> 00:30:05,097 that? 777 00:30:05,097 --> 00:30:05,447 body Ian? 778 00:30:07,137 --> 00:30:07,197 Helen: Be 779 00:30:07,677 --> 00:30:08,037 Ian: Well, that's 780 00:30:08,037 --> 00:30:08,757 very kind of you. 781 00:30:08,757 --> 00:30:09,117 Richard. 782 00:30:09,117 --> 00:30:09,357 Thank 783 00:30:09,357 --> 00:30:09,567 you. 784 00:30:09,777 --> 00:30:09,987 Helen: That's 785 00:30:10,172 --> 00:30:10,377 Ian: a great 786 00:30:13,429 --> 00:30:14,149 Andy: now. 787 00:30:14,209 --> 00:30:18,349 We should move, uh, north to T side, Now regular listeners of 788 00:30:18,349 --> 00:30:21,319 the podcast will know we have covered T side once or twice in the 789 00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:21,889 past. 790 00:30:21,919 --> 00:30:22,009 Mm-hmm. 791 00:30:22,294 --> 00:30:26,598 but I think it's probably worth just restating Richard, what has been going 792 00:30:26,598 --> 00:30:31,668 on at the immensely valuable X industrial site, uh, around the port in T side. 793 00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:32,186 Richard: T 794 00:30:32,186 --> 00:30:32,606 side, 795 00:30:32,786 --> 00:30:37,706 Um, had a big knockback about a decade ago when the steelworks closed finally. 796 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,257 Michael Hessel time was sent up there, to, pronounce what could be done. 797 00:30:42,617 --> 00:30:46,628 Said we need a, a development corporation, which they got trees and 798 00:30:46,628 --> 00:30:48,788 may unveil this development corporation. 799 00:30:48,848 --> 00:30:53,667 The idea was to regenerate the area to reinvent it as 800 00:30:53,667 --> 00:30:56,095 a, center of green industry. 801 00:30:56,521 --> 00:30:58,303 to do that, the idea was that, it 802 00:30:58,303 --> 00:30:59,893 would get a lot of money from Whitehall. 803 00:31:00,228 --> 00:31:05,508 raise money locally, borrow money, create a fund, um, develop the area, 804 00:31:05,658 --> 00:31:07,518 lease it to industries who would. 805 00:31:07,518 --> 00:31:07,818 then. 806 00:31:08,223 --> 00:31:11,163 Pay the rent to the public sector plus the rates and that would 807 00:31:11,163 --> 00:31:12,843 fund more regeneration and so on. 808 00:31:12,843 --> 00:31:13,053 so you 809 00:31:13,053 --> 00:31:15,233 Get this kind of virtuous circle. 810 00:31:15,903 --> 00:31:20,643 Um, what actually happened was they brought in a couple of local businessmen 811 00:31:20,643 --> 00:31:23,883 who were still not clear exactly why, but they invented some cock and Boulogne 812 00:31:23,883 --> 00:31:26,073 reason as to why they had come in. 813 00:31:26,454 --> 00:31:32,183 and they were given, options to buy the land, which very soon were 814 00:31:32,183 --> 00:31:34,628 repriced to one pound per acre. 815 00:31:35,138 --> 00:31:35,258 Oh, bad. 816 00:31:35,288 --> 00:31:35,558 So 817 00:31:35,558 --> 00:31:39,002 they could, buy the land whenever they wanted for one pound an acre, 818 00:31:39,002 --> 00:31:43,104 and of course they would want to buy it once a particular patch of it had 819 00:31:43,104 --> 00:31:46,074 been remediated at taxpayer's expense. 820 00:31:46,494 --> 00:31:48,354 Um, and was then very valuable. 821 00:31:48,845 --> 00:31:53,038 they'd exercised their option, uh, get this land for next to nothing 822 00:31:53,188 --> 00:31:56,938 and rent it out to a big company that was coming onto the site. 823 00:31:57,478 --> 00:31:59,183 Um, and then they could sell that income. 824 00:32:00,283 --> 00:32:01,903 In return for a lump sum for themselves. 825 00:32:01,903 --> 00:32:03,493 They did, they'd done that once already 826 00:32:04,063 --> 00:32:04,693 and 827 00:32:04,993 --> 00:32:10,153 made about 65 million pound profit instantly on a 90 acre site. 828 00:32:10,843 --> 00:32:10,963 You 829 00:32:10,963 --> 00:32:13,513 know, and there's sort of 1600 acres or so 830 00:32:14,083 --> 00:32:14,533 To cash 831 00:32:14,548 --> 00:32:14,818 Andy: it on. 832 00:32:14,998 --> 00:32:15,778 So the whole 833 00:32:15,823 --> 00:32:16,003 Richard: story 834 00:32:16,003 --> 00:32:16,453 is, that's just 835 00:32:16,453 --> 00:32:17,713 one strand of the ripoff, 836 00:32:18,388 --> 00:32:18,478 Andy: Yeah. 837 00:32:18,568 --> 00:32:22,828 but it's, it's a huge transfer of public assets to private businessmen. 838 00:32:22,828 --> 00:32:22,888 Yeah. 839 00:32:23,129 --> 00:32:24,929 not a very well explained reason why 840 00:32:24,944 --> 00:32:27,734 Richard: No, and, and, crucially with nothing from them. 841 00:32:28,053 --> 00:32:30,903 you know, we, we wrote about the private finance initiative for 842 00:32:30,903 --> 00:32:32,943 decades and what a rip off that was. 843 00:32:33,363 --> 00:32:37,683 that involved businesses investing money and then taking profits out. 844 00:32:37,683 --> 00:32:41,043 And they were taking too much in profit, but at least they put some investment in. 845 00:32:41,583 --> 00:32:44,163 This is, you know, there's no investment coming in. 846 00:32:44,343 --> 00:32:47,090 It's just all profit going out, it's really quite 847 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:47,990 Andy: So, 848 00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:50,030 which genius thought of this then, which political. 849 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,770 you know, Brilliant thinker came up with this model of, of how to redevelop T side. 850 00:32:54,824 --> 00:32:54,944 Richard: I, 851 00:32:54,949 --> 00:32:57,259 I think you've gotta pin it really on Lord Houchin. 852 00:32:57,889 --> 00:32:58,009 this 853 00:32:58,054 --> 00:32:58,234 Ian: is 854 00:32:58,234 --> 00:32:59,044 Houchin. 855 00:33:00,454 --> 00:33:00,664 So 856 00:33:00,754 --> 00:33:01,024 it's 857 00:33:01,624 --> 00:33:04,144 public risk, private profit. 858 00:33:04,367 --> 00:33:05,657 Helen: But that happens everywhere, doesn't it? 859 00:33:05,657 --> 00:33:08,807 I mean, I remember Peter Thiel, the venture capitalist, essentially saying, 860 00:33:08,807 --> 00:33:10,307 you know, competition is for losers. 861 00:33:10,307 --> 00:33:12,287 The best thing you can possibly do is get a monopoly, right? 862 00:33:12,287 --> 00:33:15,137 Which is why Palant has so many defense contracts. 863 00:33:15,137 --> 00:33:17,297 The best thing you can do is have a kind of government contract because 864 00:33:17,297 --> 00:33:20,927 you can be the only one that supplies it, and there is zero risk to you. 865 00:33:21,137 --> 00:33:24,527 Whereas the whole point of capitalism is that it's supposed to, like a market, is 866 00:33:24,527 --> 00:33:27,977 supposed to weed out the best possible people and find prices within it. 867 00:33:28,367 --> 00:33:31,187 Weirdly, the same thing happening in the Eni energy industry at the moment, right? 868 00:33:31,187 --> 00:33:34,187 Where we're gonna write off a lot of people's energy debt that is just 869 00:33:34,187 --> 00:33:35,927 not functioning as a market, right? 870 00:33:35,927 --> 00:33:38,777 We just won't quite understand being, we're not gonna let people freeze 871 00:33:38,777 --> 00:33:40,127 to death in their homes in winter. 872 00:33:40,277 --> 00:33:43,307 So we end up banging loads of money into it, but then you've lost the whole 873 00:33:43,307 --> 00:33:44,747 point of capitalism at that point. 874 00:33:44,747 --> 00:33:45,617 You might as well just be honest 875 00:33:45,812 --> 00:33:45,992 Richard: it. 876 00:33:46,022 --> 00:33:47,792 Well, that how this project started out. 877 00:33:47,792 --> 00:33:49,982 There was no competition for the deal. 878 00:33:50,432 --> 00:33:53,162 If you had said, right, this is the deal, 879 00:33:53,762 --> 00:33:54,452 you've gotta 880 00:33:54,512 --> 00:33:58,052 sort of help us remediate a bit, but you don't have to put any money in and 881 00:33:58,052 --> 00:34:01,052 you'll be able to buy the land for a pound, an acre, whichever bit you want. 882 00:34:02,042 --> 00:34:03,182 Let's have some bids. 883 00:34:03,542 --> 00:34:06,302 You'd have big companies companies saying, well, we'll pay you, you 884 00:34:06,302 --> 00:34:06,512 know, 885 00:34:06,542 --> 00:34:06,962 billion 886 00:34:06,967 --> 00:34:07,652 Andy: everyone, everyone 887 00:34:07,682 --> 00:34:07,862 Richard: Everyone would've 888 00:34:07,862 --> 00:34:08,012 bid 889 00:34:08,012 --> 00:34:08,132 for 890 00:34:08,132 --> 00:34:08,282 that. 891 00:34:08,368 --> 00:34:11,668 you would've raised a lot of money if you'd opened it up, but 892 00:34:11,668 --> 00:34:13,018 there was no open competition. 893 00:34:13,018 --> 00:34:14,548 It was just a, just a gift. 894 00:34:15,464 --> 00:34:15,614 Ian: Can 895 00:34:15,614 --> 00:34:17,354 I just recommend our readers? 896 00:34:17,774 --> 00:34:19,844 um, Who as usual have got the best views on 897 00:34:19,844 --> 00:34:20,054 this? 898 00:34:20,234 --> 00:34:20,594 One of them 899 00:34:20,594 --> 00:34:24,344 noticed that, um, Lord Houchin made mention in his House of Lord's 900 00:34:24,344 --> 00:34:26,444 speech of the 200th anniversary of 901 00:34:26,444 --> 00:34:28,529 the Stockton Darlington Railway um, 902 00:34:28,689 --> 00:34:33,191 it's Martin McLean, um, from Darlington, and he said the motto of 903 00:34:33,191 --> 00:34:35,141 the Stockton Darlington Railway Company 904 00:34:35,141 --> 00:34:37,346 was, Preva 905 00:34:37,406 --> 00:34:40,136 util Publica, which translates 906 00:34:40,136 --> 00:34:41,996 as at private risk. 907 00:34:42,026 --> 00:34:46,346 For public good, which appears to be the complete opposite of events 908 00:34:46,346 --> 00:34:48,566 detailed in the report on T side. 909 00:34:48,665 --> 00:34:49,055 Andy: Brilliant. 910 00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:49,490 Richard: in one 911 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:51,920 in Unum 912 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:52,100 or 913 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:52,415 Andy: or whatever. 914 00:34:52,420 --> 00:34:52,650 It's, 915 00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:52,790 Richard: I 916 00:34:53,135 --> 00:34:54,665 Helen: I was gonna say, I'm only surprised if people, I'm written in 917 00:34:54,665 --> 00:34:57,215 this week offering their own Latin translations to the other way round. 918 00:34:57,545 --> 00:34:58,265 I'd be very private. 919 00:34:58,265 --> 00:34:58,685 I read 920 00:34:58,910 --> 00:35:02,975 Andy: so, so Ben Hesen, conservative mayor of the area, and recently 921 00:35:02,975 --> 00:35:05,975 elected and sort of Disconcertingly young, I mean, I think he's about 922 00:35:06,020 --> 00:35:06,230 Richard: he's 923 00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:08,720 think he's 40 now or coming up to 40. 924 00:35:08,735 --> 00:35:12,365 Andy: He's roughly my age, which is, you know, you do think, God, I could 925 00:35:12,365 --> 00:35:13,925 have made so much for myself by now. 926 00:35:14,285 --> 00:35:14,975 You know, I 927 00:35:15,005 --> 00:35:15,045 Richard: could 928 00:35:15,185 --> 00:35:15,305 Andy: have 929 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:16,190 Richard: you could have given, you 930 00:35:16,295 --> 00:35:16,445 Andy: could've 931 00:35:16,445 --> 00:35:16,715 given 932 00:35:16,715 --> 00:35:16,805 away 933 00:35:16,805 --> 00:35:19,938 billion, tens, hundreds of millions of quid to my mates. 934 00:35:20,045 --> 00:35:21,305 Were they, were they his mates? 935 00:35:21,305 --> 00:35:22,865 Were they, I mean, how did they meet? 936 00:35:22,895 --> 00:35:23,525 Do we know? 937 00:35:23,525 --> 00:35:24,785 Is that lost in the midst of time? 938 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,530 Richard: one of them he'd had some dealings with when he 939 00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:29,960 was a counselor locally, there are two property developers. 940 00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:33,230 One of them, he'd had some dealings with the other, he says he'd had no dealings 941 00:35:33,230 --> 00:35:35,547 with, I, I don't think they were mates. 942 00:35:35,547 --> 00:35:37,797 I think these people were very influential in the area. 943 00:35:37,887 --> 00:35:39,417 And somehow they got this deal. 944 00:35:39,809 --> 00:35:42,449 And there was no competition, as we've discussed. 945 00:35:42,449 --> 00:35:45,929 So, you know, it is all that is all a bit murky, right. 946 00:35:45,929 --> 00:35:46,319 I think. 947 00:35:46,321 --> 00:35:46,533 but 948 00:35:46,533 --> 00:35:46,623 as 949 00:35:46,623 --> 00:35:46,773 far 950 00:35:46,773 --> 00:35:51,213 as you, I can see they weren't mates in the way you put it, although they 951 00:35:51,213 --> 00:35:56,103 seem to be becoming a fair bit You know, we had a story in the, in, the, 952 00:35:56,103 --> 00:35:59,913 in the current issue actually about, uh, how and going to the wedding 953 00:36:00,003 --> 00:36:03,753 of the son of one of developers, 954 00:36:04,203 --> 00:36:07,678 the son who also runs a, uh, a, 955 00:36:07,803 --> 00:36:07,893 a, 956 00:36:07,893 --> 00:36:09,303 plant hire company, 957 00:36:09,843 --> 00:36:10,023 which 958 00:36:10,023 --> 00:36:13,023 is making money from the development that his father's controlling. 959 00:36:13,623 --> 00:36:16,263 Um, and which makes huge profits 960 00:36:16,998 --> 00:36:17,538 stupid. 961 00:36:17,538 --> 00:36:21,288 profits On for, for having a relatively small amount of kit, 962 00:36:21,513 --> 00:36:23,553 Andy: which is a plant higher, like heavy machinery, not 963 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:24,319 Richard: Yeah. 964 00:36:24,624 --> 00:36:24,704 Andy: yeah, 965 00:36:25,334 --> 00:36:25,784 Just, yeah. 966 00:36:26,024 --> 00:36:26,504 Richard: I reckon they 967 00:36:26,504 --> 00:36:26,834 could make 968 00:36:26,834 --> 00:36:27,944 money from, Haring out 969 00:36:28,169 --> 00:36:29,999 Helen: but Richard isn't the important thing to remember here that there 970 00:36:29,999 --> 00:36:33,629 was a report into all this, which completely exonerated Ben Houchin and 971 00:36:33,629 --> 00:36:35,099 said he'd done absolutely nothing wrong. 972 00:36:35,099 --> 00:36:38,009 And he was in fact the bestest boy in the world and you were very wrong. 973 00:36:39,419 --> 00:36:39,479 I 974 00:36:39,479 --> 00:36:40,559 think that's broadly what it 975 00:36:40,724 --> 00:36:41,024 Richard: I think that 976 00:36:41,099 --> 00:36:41,369 Helen: The 977 00:36:41,369 --> 00:36:41,729 times 978 00:36:41,729 --> 00:36:41,759 are, 979 00:36:42,134 --> 00:36:42,554 Richard: you were put. 980 00:36:42,794 --> 00:36:43,424 Um, no. 981 00:36:43,764 --> 00:36:45,291 there was a, a review, a 982 00:36:45,296 --> 00:36:50,296 couple of years ago when we sort of got this stuff out about the land transactions 983 00:36:50,296 --> 00:36:56,110 and the pound an acre, Michael Gove was forced to Asked for a review and, 984 00:36:56,375 --> 00:37:00,425 a chief executive of Lancaster Council at the time, Angie Ridgewell, did a 985 00:37:00,425 --> 00:37:01,595 review with a couple of other people. 986 00:37:01,595 --> 00:37:05,405 and It was a very, very good review with limited powers, you know, no 987 00:37:05,435 --> 00:37:10,144 real powers to call for information and so on, She, she sort of confirmed 988 00:37:10,144 --> 00:37:13,679 the things we'd written and found some more that, you know, that, 989 00:37:13,774 --> 00:37:15,334 that they were, there was no risk. 990 00:37:15,334 --> 00:37:17,824 They were taking on that they hadn't invested a penny. 991 00:37:18,486 --> 00:37:22,356 that, um, the deals with friends and family were questionable. 992 00:37:22,980 --> 00:37:25,740 that there wasn't proper procurement, all that kind of stuff. 993 00:37:25,830 --> 00:37:30,430 Um, so it was really damning, but it had one line in there. 994 00:37:31,135 --> 00:37:34,585 One of the triggers for, for that review was that the local, local Middlesborough 995 00:37:34,585 --> 00:37:38,365 mp, Andy McDonald, had said that this was industrial scale corruption. 996 00:37:38,575 --> 00:37:39,655 He said that in Parliament. 997 00:37:40,285 --> 00:37:44,485 and so part of her remit was to look at that and she said she, based on 998 00:37:44,485 --> 00:37:48,175 what she'd seen, and she also said that they didn't cooperate with her, 999 00:37:48,355 --> 00:37:52,405 providing information, but based on what she'd seen, she hadn't, she hadn't 1000 00:37:52,405 --> 00:37:54,715 found any corruption, anything illegal. 1001 00:37:55,195 --> 00:38:01,825 Uh, and that one line was latched onto by Ben, Houchin in a, in a pretty smart PR 1002 00:38:01,825 --> 00:38:07,045 operation, made sure everyone was briefed on it well before the report came out and 1003 00:38:07,045 --> 00:38:09,535 could see how bad the content of it was. 1004 00:38:09,985 --> 00:38:14,665 So everybody ran with that line and now he just repeats ad nauseum that she found 1005 00:38:14,665 --> 00:38:16,885 nothing wrong, which is completely untrue. 1006 00:38:17,425 --> 00:38:22,285 And he, he has completely, uh, misrepresented and lied about that 1007 00:38:22,285 --> 00:38:24,235 report in quite important settings. 1008 00:38:24,235 --> 00:38:29,125 You know, in a, in a hustings for reelection in 24, he said that 1009 00:38:29,125 --> 00:38:33,235 the report found it was value for money when it explicitly said 1010 00:38:33,701 --> 00:38:36,611 she could not find value for money based on what 1011 00:38:36,611 --> 00:38:37,151 she'd seen. 1012 00:38:37,451 --> 00:38:38,021 She didn't say it 1013 00:38:38,021 --> 00:38:39,881 wasn't, but she said she couldn't find it. 1014 00:38:40,781 --> 00:38:46,175 so it's being misrepresented, but people are still swallowing it and, um, Houchin 1015 00:38:46,175 --> 00:38:51,340 is treated as if, you know, there's nothing to see here he's sort of occupied 1016 00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:55,843 this place in the political narrative as the future of the Tory party. 1017 00:38:55,843 --> 00:38:58,033 You know, this Tory party that's completely useless. 1018 00:38:58,033 --> 00:38:58,813 What do they have to do? 1019 00:38:58,813 --> 00:39:00,973 Oh, we need someone like Houchin who can deliver? 1020 00:39:01,003 --> 00:39:03,013 That's the way, that's the future of tourism. 1021 00:39:03,613 --> 00:39:07,153 and everybody sort of goes along with it 'cause it fits and it makes 1022 00:39:07,153 --> 00:39:09,613 a good slot on a political panel. 1023 00:39:09,946 --> 00:39:13,087 Andy: Does the change in government not change the appetite for 1024 00:39:13,147 --> 00:39:15,427 actually finding out what's been going on here or officially 1025 00:39:15,427 --> 00:39:16,167 recognizing 1026 00:39:16,522 --> 00:39:17,722 Richard: Um, no. 1027 00:39:17,722 --> 00:39:22,402 It should have done because Kir starer in, in opposition in 24 1028 00:39:22,402 --> 00:39:24,802 said it cries out for an inquiry. 1029 00:39:25,222 --> 00:39:27,139 Angela Rayner promised one. 1030 00:39:27,616 --> 00:39:28,636 but it just hasn't happened. 1031 00:39:28,846 --> 00:39:29,026 Right. 1032 00:39:29,326 --> 00:39:29,446 You 1033 00:39:29,446 --> 00:39:31,186 know, um, they're just spineless 1034 00:39:31,846 --> 00:39:32,956 Ian: and he's not reform. 1035 00:39:33,499 --> 00:39:34,609 I mean, Satori, who cares 1036 00:39:34,609 --> 00:39:35,359 about them anymore, 1037 00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:37,309 I mean, they've got other things to 1038 00:39:37,609 --> 00:39:38,209 Helen: I mean, give it a 1039 00:39:38,214 --> 00:39:40,189 Richard: I mean, I think, I think if it was a labor Mayor 1040 00:39:40,249 --> 00:39:41,779 Starman might have done something. 1041 00:39:41,779 --> 00:39:42,769 I think he's kind of 1042 00:39:43,789 --> 00:39:44,149 just 1043 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:44,899 too 1044 00:39:44,899 --> 00:39:49,069 scared of appearing to, you know, opening up that challenge because the answer 1045 00:39:49,069 --> 00:39:53,179 would be if he went in and, con, you know, demanded a full audit, what you need 1046 00:39:53,179 --> 00:39:55,279 is a full audit with statutory powers. 1047 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,610 if he instituted that, you know, he, he, the response 1048 00:39:58,610 --> 00:40:00,530 would be, oh, he's anti-growth. 1049 00:40:00,951 --> 00:40:03,828 you know, he's trying to kill anything good that's happening in the north. 1050 00:40:04,018 --> 00:40:05,575 I don't think he's got the stomach 1051 00:40:05,858 --> 00:40:06,578 to fight that. 1052 00:40:08,736 --> 00:40:08,976 Andy: hard. 1053 00:40:08,976 --> 00:40:09,546 spiriting 1054 00:40:10,806 --> 00:40:13,566 Any, any good, any, any good, news that we can, um, 1055 00:40:14,106 --> 00:40:14,256 you've 1056 00:40:14,256 --> 00:40:15,486 been covering the post office as well. 1057 00:40:15,996 --> 00:40:19,236 Are you about to tell us that that's, um, that's been going terrifically in 1058 00:40:19,236 --> 00:40:20,826 the last year or so since we covered it, 1059 00:40:21,696 --> 00:40:21,876 on 1060 00:40:21,876 --> 00:40:21,996 this 1061 00:40:22,041 --> 00:40:22,311 Richard: pod the 1062 00:40:22,311 --> 00:40:22,431 last 1063 00:40:22,431 --> 00:40:22,881 oh, There 1064 00:40:22,881 --> 00:40:24,261 are some terrific things. 1065 00:40:24,351 --> 00:40:29,780 Mostly thanks to the post masters, not the post office and certainly not Fujitsu 1066 00:40:29,907 --> 00:40:31,557 Ian: know, remind us of the total that 1067 00:40:31,557 --> 00:40:32,157 they've paid 1068 00:40:32,157 --> 00:40:32,397 out 1069 00:40:32,397 --> 00:40:32,937 to date. 1070 00:40:33,184 --> 00:40:33,514 Richard: yeah. 1071 00:40:33,574 --> 00:40:34,084 Zero. 1072 00:40:34,144 --> 00:40:34,894 Absolutely. 1073 00:40:35,014 --> 00:40:35,254 Helen: right. 1074 00:40:35,344 --> 00:40:37,984 I thought it was gonna be like 30 quid, but No, it's absolutely nothing. 1075 00:40:37,984 --> 00:40:38,314 All right. 1076 00:40:38,314 --> 00:40:38,524 Okay. 1077 00:40:38,554 --> 00:40:38,584 Richard: Okay. 1078 00:40:38,584 --> 00:40:39,994 Fattest zero ever. 1079 00:40:40,748 --> 00:40:46,298 Uh, they, they promised, uh, it's now getting on for two years ago that Paul 1080 00:40:46,298 --> 00:40:51,248 Patterson, their European boss, sat in parliament, told a committee, yes, we, 1081 00:40:51,248 --> 00:40:53,858 we have a moral obligation to chip in. 1082 00:40:54,045 --> 00:40:56,595 and he promised, you know, a particularly, 1083 00:40:57,795 --> 00:40:58,185 uh, 1084 00:40:58,215 --> 00:41:02,595 deserving group, the children of Subpostmasters who weren't entitled to 1085 00:41:02,595 --> 00:41:04,898 any compensation but suffered, major 1086 00:41:04,898 --> 00:41:05,858 consequences. 1087 00:41:05,948 --> 00:41:06,368 Uh, he 1088 00:41:06,368 --> 00:41:10,958 promised them that he would fund a, a program, uh, to support them 1089 00:41:10,958 --> 00:41:12,653 and absolutely nothing's happened, 1090 00:41:12,978 --> 00:41:14,088 which is disgraceful. 1091 00:41:14,148 --> 00:41:15,768 And, And I can't quite believe it. 1092 00:41:15,768 --> 00:41:16,248 even 1093 00:41:16,368 --> 00:41:19,203 even on a sort of PR level, it seems pretty. 1094 00:41:19,203 --> 00:41:19,773 stupid. 1095 00:41:20,028 --> 00:41:20,748 Ian: Does a moral 1096 00:41:20,748 --> 00:41:22,068 responsibility mean you, 1097 00:41:22,068 --> 00:41:23,347 you don't ever have to pay. 1098 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,900 Richard: Well, it's a crafted PR line. 1099 00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:31,480 Um, you, you confess moral but not legal responsibility. 1100 00:41:31,690 --> 00:41:34,240 And I think it was first used by 1101 00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:35,380 Union 1102 00:41:35,380 --> 00:41:36,280 Carbide 1103 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:38,530 after the Bo Powell disaster. 1104 00:41:38,665 --> 00:41:39,025 Ian: Yeah. 1105 00:41:39,333 --> 00:41:41,206 Richard: but I mean, there's some, some sort of good news. 1106 00:41:41,206 --> 00:41:46,876 The government's moved a bit recently, um, announced that those children of sub 1107 00:41:46,876 --> 00:41:49,306 supposes will get some financial help. 1108 00:41:49,411 --> 00:41:49,621 Andy: Right. 1109 00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:54,340 Richard: Compensation is moving along, but for some still far too slowly, 1110 00:41:54,961 --> 00:41:55,111 you 1111 00:41:55,111 --> 00:41:57,481 know, there's, there's still a couple of hundred at least 1112 00:41:57,872 --> 00:42:02,110 claimants from sort of original claimants who were bogged 1113 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:04,795 down in legal arguments and, 1114 00:42:05,275 --> 00:42:07,585 Andy: or were being offered substantially smaller amounts. 1115 00:42:07,635 --> 00:42:07,925 Richard: That 1116 00:42:08,085 --> 00:42:08,205 kind 1117 00:42:08,210 --> 00:42:08,230 of 1118 00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:08,440 thing. 1119 00:42:08,590 --> 00:42:08,950 Yeah. 1120 00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:09,460 Yeah. 1121 00:42:09,460 --> 00:42:09,670 A Kind 1122 00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:11,200 of fraction of what they asked for. 1123 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,370 And then they're having to go back and offered a bit more and go back again. 1124 00:42:15,644 --> 00:42:21,194 but, you know, the, the whole setup, that whole system for calculating 1125 00:42:21,194 --> 00:42:22,724 redress has been wrong from the 1126 00:42:22,724 --> 00:42:23,174 start. 1127 00:42:23,844 --> 00:42:27,024 they've always talked about putting Subpostmasters in the 1128 00:42:27,024 --> 00:42:30,789 position they would've been if they'd never come across Horizon, 1129 00:42:31,764 --> 00:42:32,904 And it's just nowhere 1130 00:42:32,904 --> 00:42:33,414 near that. 1131 00:42:33,414 --> 00:42:36,864 How did you calculate Well, yeah, you, of course, it would always be impossible 1132 00:42:36,864 --> 00:42:42,819 to calculate that, but they're doing it on, or have done it on, principles 1133 00:42:42,819 --> 00:42:47,859 normally apply to more routine for unfair dismissal sort of cases. 1134 00:42:47,889 --> 00:42:49,629 Well we'll give you a couple of years pay 1135 00:42:49,779 --> 00:42:50,499 lost Pay, 1136 00:42:50,504 --> 00:42:50,664 right? 1137 00:42:50,919 --> 00:42:51,249 And, 1138 00:42:51,309 --> 00:42:52,869 oh, did you really have a nervous breakdown? 1139 00:42:52,929 --> 00:42:55,119 Oh, well, can you prove that? 1140 00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:58,359 You know, um, shows the paperwork kind of thing. 1141 00:42:58,569 --> 00:42:59,289 Um, Ruth, this is 1142 00:42:59,289 --> 00:42:59,559 more like 1143 00:42:59,679 --> 00:42:59,919 your whole 1144 00:42:59,919 --> 00:43:00,279 life 1145 00:43:00,549 --> 00:43:01,449 Yeah, exactly. 1146 00:43:01,449 --> 00:43:01,719 And your 1147 00:43:01,974 --> 00:43:03,084 Andy: if you're prosecuted over it. 1148 00:43:03,099 --> 00:43:03,634 Richard: Yeah. 1149 00:43:04,449 --> 00:43:08,319 Ian: And as you keep pointing out, I mean, Fujitsu's profit 1150 00:43:08,409 --> 00:43:11,469 margins are very, very large. 1151 00:43:11,529 --> 00:43:11,829 Yeah. 1152 00:43:11,949 --> 00:43:17,139 Um, and even I remember going on, um, Peston and, and being asked how 1153 00:43:17,139 --> 00:43:18,849 much I thought Fujitsu should pay. 1154 00:43:18,999 --> 00:43:21,759 And I said, a billion uh, pounds. 1155 00:43:22,179 --> 00:43:24,789 Um, off the top of my head, they wouldn't even notice 1156 00:43:25,629 --> 00:43:27,435 I mean, it is ridiculous. 1157 00:43:27,585 --> 00:43:30,105 Richard: that might be about a year's profit, but they should be 1158 00:43:30,105 --> 00:43:31,630 on, this is more than a year's, 1159 00:43:32,505 --> 00:43:34,515 um, kind of persecution. 1160 00:43:34,515 --> 00:43:34,785 Yes. 1161 00:43:34,935 --> 00:43:35,205 Ian: Yeah. 1162 00:43:35,845 --> 00:43:37,375 Andy: Is there anywhere that readers can find out a little 1163 00:43:37,375 --> 00:43:38,785 more about the post office story? 1164 00:43:38,785 --> 00:43:41,065 Uh, maybe a, a sort of book length summary of it? 1165 00:43:41,515 --> 00:43:42,385 Richard: Oh, we how to plug 1166 00:43:43,105 --> 00:43:43,135 I, 1167 00:43:43,135 --> 00:43:43,315 we'll 1168 00:43:44,425 --> 00:43:44,815 Andy: depends 1169 00:43:44,815 --> 00:43:46,975 how gracefully and subtly it's done. 1170 00:43:46,975 --> 00:43:47,275 I suppose it 1171 00:43:47,410 --> 00:43:47,590 Ian: just 1172 00:43:47,590 --> 00:43:47,830 and the 1173 00:43:47,830 --> 00:43:49,270 less so, the more 1174 00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:51,265 Richard: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1175 00:43:51,325 --> 00:43:56,755 Well, our, um, account of the whole story is called Postmortem 1176 00:43:56,755 --> 00:44:01,585 A Book is being published at the end of this month by private Eye. 1177 00:44:02,575 --> 00:44:06,475 Some book sellers have seen the cover, I'm sad to report in. 1178 00:44:06,505 --> 00:44:11,635 And, um, because it's got private eye as a banner and then the title 1179 00:44:11,635 --> 00:44:15,805 post-mortem and some are billing it as privat Eye Post-Mortem. 1180 00:44:16,257 --> 00:44:16,460 Helen: Oh. 1181 00:44:17,845 --> 00:44:18,865 Ian: Well, that's cheery 1182 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:19,120 Richard: for 1183 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:19,280 all 1184 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:19,480 of us. 1185 00:44:19,915 --> 00:44:21,325 Andy: Well, it's good to work out finally. 1186 00:44:21,325 --> 00:44:22,885 where, where it all went wrong. 1187 00:44:22,915 --> 00:44:23,095 Richard: maybe. 1188 00:44:24,221 --> 00:44:25,031 Andy: We should wrap it up there. 1189 00:44:25,031 --> 00:44:29,996 But, uh, if you have enjoyed this episode and you'd like more page 94, 1190 00:44:30,456 --> 00:44:35,201 but in a text version, than just go into your local news agent or supermarket 1191 00:44:35,411 --> 00:44:36,551 and buy a copy of Private Eye. 1192 00:44:36,611 --> 00:44:37,541 It's a terrific magazine. 1193 00:44:37,781 --> 00:44:39,701 It's got a new columnist, gold Digger. 1194 00:44:39,701 --> 00:44:40,661 Very exciting. 1195 00:44:41,021 --> 00:44:43,421 Uh, it is got revelations about the post office, about T side, 1196 00:44:43,421 --> 00:44:44,201 everything we've been talking 1197 00:44:44,231 --> 00:44:44,381 Ian: about 1198 00:44:44,381 --> 00:44:47,351 And It's got a cover that is literally prophetic. 1199 00:44:47,576 --> 00:44:48,026 Helen: Yeah. 1200 00:44:48,026 --> 00:44:51,656 Are, uh, are Christmas gift subscriptions available, Andy, for, for a loved 1201 00:44:51,656 --> 00:44:52,856 one, perhaps there festive season? 1202 00:44:52,991 --> 00:44:53,381 Andy: you know? 1203 00:44:53,381 --> 00:44:54,341 I think they might be. 1204 00:44:54,491 --> 00:44:55,211 I think they might. 1205 00:44:55,211 --> 00:45:00,251 Well, so that is all available locally or at private NY dot co uk. 1206 00:45:00,251 --> 00:45:02,059 Until then, Thanks very much. 1207 00:45:02,059 --> 00:45:02,839 We'll see you next time. 1208 00:45:02,839 --> 00:45:03,399 Bye for now.