(00:00:00):
I live in Georgia, the state that has the worst maternal death rate in the United States.

(00:00:05):
Outcomes here are so terrible that we rank below nearly 100 other countries,

(00:00:09):
including several war-torn regions.

(00:00:11):
Abuse during birth is normalized and accepted and expected.

(00:00:16):
When I was pregnant,

(00:00:17):
I chose my care team diligently,

(00:00:19):
educated myself,

(00:00:21):
and engaged in birth preparation like I was preparing for a war.

(00:00:24):
Because in a world where women die of medical neglect,

(00:00:26):
both of over and under treatment,

(00:00:28):
birth is a battle zone.

(00:00:30):
I felt confident in my choices and in my team of doctors and midwives,

(00:00:33):
and I felt good going into my birth.

(00:00:36):
When I was 37 weeks pregnant with my first child,

(00:00:39):
the hospital at which I had planned to give birth pulled the rug out from under me

(00:00:42):
and made a stunning announcement.

(00:00:45):
It would no longer be offering water birth.

(00:00:47):
Oh, but it was so much worse than that.

(00:00:49):
It would also be forcing some groups of women to have medically unnecessary

(00:00:52):
C-sections that their doctors did not want to perform.

(00:00:56):
It would force certain interventions regardless of their medical necessity.

(00:01:00):
It was clear that there was a cultural shift toward controlling and terrorizing women.

(00:01:06):
Women have a right to say no, even when they are giving birth.

(00:01:09):
These policy changes were illegal on their face and clearly designed to control and

(00:01:14):
dominate women.

(00:01:15):
I panicked.

(00:01:16):
I didn't know what to do and I had only three weeks.

(00:01:19):
I reached out to local feminist organizations, but none of them were interested in helping.

(00:01:24):
It was my first real introduction to anti-mother misogyny,

(00:01:27):
to how little we care about what happens to women during birth.

(00:01:30):
I finally realized that if no one was stepping up, I had to.

(00:01:34):
So I gave up sleep.

(00:01:35):
I rallied the women I knew.

(00:01:37):
I wrote press releases,

(00:01:38):
reached out to national birth justice organizations,

(00:01:40):
and got in touch with a team of lawyers.

(00:01:43):
Within a day,

(00:01:44):
I had a group of nearly 3,000 women who were ready to protest at the hospital all

(00:01:47):
day,

(00:01:48):
every day,

(00:01:48):
until the policies changed.

(00:01:50):
They wrote letters.

(00:01:51):
There were dozens of media stories.

(00:01:54):
My husband,

(00:01:54):
a lawyer,

(00:01:55):
contacted the hospital detailing the lawsuit he intended to file on my behalf.

(00:02:00):
The hospital lawyer quickly got back to us and let us know that they would not

(00:02:03):
impose these policies on me,

(00:02:05):
but of course they would be happy to make an exception for me.

(00:02:09):
They clearly viewed me as a threat and hoped to defuse me.

(00:02:12):
But to quote Audre Lorde, I am not free while any woman is unfree.

(00:02:17):
I thanked the lawyer for his written commitment to honoring the law,

(00:02:20):
then shared his behavior publicly and continued with my protest efforts.

(00:02:24):
The backlash was swift.

(00:02:26):
I began receiving death threats, as did many other women.

(00:02:29):
The hate lobbed in my direction told me I was a threat.

(00:02:32):
I embraced it rather than shrinking away.

(00:02:35):
The hospital PR team tried to depict us as hormonal, irrational women.

(00:02:40):
So I told them that we,

(00:02:41):
being irrational and all,

(00:02:42):
would line the street in front of the hospital during rush hour traffic,

(00:02:46):
hundreds of us carrying signs and megaphones until they abandoned their war against

(00:02:49):
us.

(00:02:51):
They then tried to pretend we were crazy natural birthers ignoring good science in

(00:02:55):
spite of the fact that we had our doctor's support.

(00:02:57):
So I told them that we'd stand at every hospital entrance during our protest,

(00:03:00):
ensuring everyone who entered or exited the hospital knew the danger and abuse they

(00:03:04):
faced.

(00:03:05):
The hospital lawyer,

(00:03:06):
who had no medical training and apparently no brain,

(00:03:10):
made the mistake of inserting his own opinions.

(00:03:13):
So I told him I'd send my pregnant protesters down to his law firm along with the

(00:03:17):
media,

(00:03:18):
and that if they tried to do anything about it,

(00:03:20):
the images of them arresting peaceful pregnant women asserting their basic human

(00:03:23):
rights would end up on the news for days.

(00:03:26):
The hospital's leadership team finally agreed to meet with me.

(00:03:29):
So I took along a handful of other pregnant friends and advocates.

(00:03:33):
I wanted a group that represented the diverse range of attitudes toward and

(00:03:36):
experiences of birth,

(00:03:38):
multiple C-section mothers.

(00:03:39):
women choosing epidurals and women like me who were choosing unmedicated births.

(00:03:44):
By the time we arrived in their office, their fear of us was palpable.

(00:03:49):
We scared them.

(00:03:51):
They didn't know what to do because they had never been pushed on so hard,

(00:03:54):
so publicly for so long.

(00:03:56):
At one point,

(00:03:57):
the hospital lawyer asked us if we could teach him how to write emails without

(00:04:00):
misogyny.

(00:04:02):
They finally acceded to our demands.

(00:04:04):
Not because of their own goodness, but because we have the law and justice on our side.

(00:04:08):
And because we made clear that we would rain down consequences on them and make

(00:04:12):
them miserable until they stopped.

(00:04:14):
Patriarchy does not respond to niceness.

(00:04:17):
It does not give into logical arguments or well-articulated moral claims because

(00:04:21):
patriarchy has never been about logic or morality.

(00:04:24):
It is about control.

(00:04:26):
Patriarchy expects us to roll over,

(00:04:29):
but women are the majority and mothers are the majority of women.

(00:04:33):
We are the ones who make and sustain life.

(00:04:35):
We are the ones who decide whether the species continues.

(00:04:39):
And when we refuse to roll over for patriarchy, patriarchy has to roll over for us instead.

(00:04:45):
There is power in motherhood if we ignore our conditioning,

(00:04:48):
ignore the messaging of patriarchy,

(00:04:49):
and tap into our maternal rage.

(00:04:52):
That rage connects us with other women.

(00:04:54):
If we build solidarity with them,

(00:04:56):
including women we don't like,

(00:04:57):
including women who are different from us,

(00:04:59):
we become unstoppable.

(00:05:01):
Motherhood can be a source of power.

(00:05:03):
Birth,

(00:05:04):
however we give birth,

(00:05:05):
as long as we are safe and supported,

(00:05:08):
can be a transformative experience from which we derive significant purpose.

(00:05:12):
It can be a catalyst that empowers us to break the shackles of patriarchy.

(00:05:16):
After all, patriarchy is all about controlling birth because misogynist men fear its power.

(00:05:23):
Hi, I'm Zonva Lyons, and this is the Liberating Motherhood Podcast.

(00:05:27):
As always,

(00:05:28):
I'd like to ask you to help support this podcast by sharing it on social media,

(00:05:32):
by leaving a positive review on your favorite podcast platform,

(00:05:35):
by heart reacting it on Substack,

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and by leaving comments or otherwise engaging.

(00:05:39):
As many of you know,

(00:05:40):
social media algorithms are trying to drive away feminist and leftist creators.

(00:05:44):
The most effective way to push back is to give the algorithm what it wants, which is engagement.

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You can also sign up to become a paid subscriber and get at least one bonus podcast

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episode a month.

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These actions to promote the podcast really do help as subscribers are the sole

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reason that I'm able to do this work and your support and promotion helps me keep

(00:06:02):
doing it.

(00:06:03):
I will never accept advertiser money or allow this work to be censored.

(00:06:07):
So I am dependent solely on you, my listeners.

(00:06:10):
Thanks for being here.

(00:06:12):
Today's opening vignette is a little bit different because it is my story.

(00:06:16):
I wanted to share it because in many ways it is my origin story.

(00:06:19):
But I received so many stories for this podcast,

(00:06:21):
and I want to share some of them so that folks can understand how truly dire things

(00:06:25):
are in birth culture.

(00:06:27):
So I'll be posting some of them in the show notes.

(00:06:30):
My guest today is someone I first met through that protest,

(00:06:33):
who stood beside me and supported me and taught me,

(00:06:36):
and who has been a beloved friend ever since.

(00:06:38):
I'm here today with Kristen Pascucci of Birth Monopoly.

(00:06:41):
Hi, Kristen.

(00:06:44):
Hi, Zahn.

(00:06:45):
It's great to hear your voice.

(00:06:48):
I am so glad to have you here.

(00:06:51):
So let me tell you guys about Kristen.

(00:06:53):
Kristen is the founder of Birth Monopoly,

(00:06:56):
and she has worked tirelessly to protect and help pregnant people for more than a

(00:06:59):
decade,

(00:07:00):
has masterminded numerous activist campaigns,

(00:07:03):
including mine,

(00:07:04):
supported lawsuits,

(00:07:05):
and worked with organizations such as Improving Birth.

(00:07:08):
She teaches activists,

(00:07:09):
parents,

(00:07:09):
and experts about birthing justice,

(00:07:11):
birth rights,

(00:07:12):
and self-advocacy in birth.

(00:07:14):
She's contributed in some way to almost any improvement in our maternity care

(00:07:17):
system that has occurred over the last decade that you might think of.

(00:07:21):
And I just love her so much.

(00:07:22):
I really do, Kristen.

(00:07:23):
Oh, my God.

(00:07:25):
That was so sweet.

(00:07:27):
Thanks.

(00:07:30):
It's nice to hear other people say nice things about me.

(00:07:34):
Well,

(00:07:34):
I know that a lot of people say mean things about you because the more you push on

(00:07:39):
patriarchy,

(00:07:39):
the more it pushes back.

(00:07:42):
Yeah.

(00:07:43):
Yeah.

(00:07:43):
When you said you got death threats for your efforts at the,

(00:07:48):
you know,

(00:07:48):
against the hospital there,

(00:07:49):
I was like,

(00:07:51):
oh man,

(00:07:51):
I remember those days.

(00:07:53):
I don't get those anymore, but I do have bad memories.

(00:07:57):
Yeah.

(00:07:57):
Yeah, it's so dark.

(00:08:00):
It's just so dark.

(00:08:01):
So before we get started,

(00:08:03):
I want to add that Jeff and I did a podcast about a year ago about the state of

(00:08:08):
childbirth and a patriarchy,

(00:08:09):
why patriarchy wants to control birth,

(00:08:11):
how it does it,

(00:08:12):
and just how bad things are here in the U.S.

(00:08:14):
where birth is getting progressively more dangerous, not less.

(00:08:17):
So if you're not familiar with these issues,

(00:08:21):
I recommend starting there because that's where we get into the statistics and we

(00:08:24):
share a lot of people's experiences.

(00:08:26):
Kristen is here to share some additional science,

(00:08:29):
but also as a witness and as a sort of friendly big sister to give advice on

(00:08:36):
self-advocacy in this awful abusive system.

(00:08:39):
Thanks.

(00:08:43):
So, okay, Kristen, I'm so excited to finally be interviewing you about this.

(00:08:47):
Yay.

(00:08:49):
I think it would be good to get your introduction to this issue.

(00:08:52):
Tell listeners what's going wrong with birth and

(00:08:55):
And how is that related to patriarchy?

(00:08:57):
How does it uphold the patriarchy?

(00:08:58):
Like what is happening?

(00:09:00):
Oh, wow.

(00:09:01):
Okay.

(00:09:01):
That's a huge question.

(00:09:02):
I mean, I think your introduction did a really great job explaining that.

(00:09:10):
So,

(00:09:10):
I mean,

(00:09:11):
so you're talking about something that happened,

(00:09:13):
you know,

(00:09:13):
to you as an individual and then to like a...

(00:09:17):
a group of community members that came down from the policy level at the hospital.

(00:09:22):
Um,

(00:09:24):
you know,

(00:09:24):
those things,

(00:09:25):
it,

(00:09:27):
it just replicates throughout the larger system,

(00:09:30):
you know,

(00:09:30):
that kind of stuff,

(00:09:31):
the same thing that happened to you,

(00:09:32):
the same kinds of like super restrictive policies happen all over the country,

(00:09:39):
um,

(00:09:39):
fairly arbitrarily.

(00:09:41):
Um,

(00:09:45):
And like you said, there isn't there isn't a lot of like logic or morals happening there.

(00:09:52):
But because because women are up against this.

(00:09:59):
this,

(00:10:00):
uh,

(00:10:01):
this,

(00:10:01):
I guess,

(00:10:02):
archetype of like hysterical,

(00:10:05):
emotional beings who aren't capable of making really important decisions.

(00:10:12):
Um, the conversation has really never been equal.

(00:10:17):
Um, so all that misogyny is, it just like permeates at every level, like from, um,

(00:10:27):
from individual,

(00:10:28):
I think like interpersonal interactions when you're pregnant with,

(00:10:31):
you know,

(00:10:32):
the family members and members of the general public.

(00:10:37):
And then it like,

(00:10:37):
you know,

(00:10:38):
it goes up through all the layers of the system all the way up to,

(00:10:41):
you know,

(00:10:42):
when we're talking about like the justice system and policy that comes down from

(00:10:48):
the federal level,

(00:10:49):
it all just kind of,

(00:10:52):
it tends to replicate those,

(00:10:55):
you know,

(00:10:57):
paternalistic leanings.

(00:11:00):
It's total paternalism.

(00:11:01):
And so like,

(00:11:02):
yeah,

(00:11:03):
I have this theory that pregnancy and birth and early postpartum are kind of this

(00:11:09):
process of getting women to accept the like devalued identity of motherhood.

(00:11:14):
So then they will really just feel alone and accept all of the labor society voice upon them.

(00:11:22):
But that doesn't seem to be how a lot of people feel because what I hear from a lot

(00:11:25):
of people is,

(00:11:27):
well,

(00:11:27):
if the baby's alive,

(00:11:28):
that's all that matters.

(00:11:30):
And, well, it's just one bad day.

(00:11:32):
And people often –

(00:11:35):
Try to pretend that this is just about like unmedicated birth and like crunchy mothers.

(00:11:41):
But I see this on people – I see this among people on the other side of things too.

(00:11:45):
Like I had a friend who had a really significant trauma history and who didn't feel

(00:11:51):
safe giving birth vaginally.

(00:11:52):
And so she wanted an elective C-section, which is like a completely reasonable thing to want.

(00:11:57):
It's medically necessary for her.

(00:11:58):
Mm-hmm.

(00:11:59):
And the system pushed just as hard on her about that.

(00:12:03):
And then, yeah, finally, it granted the C-section.

(00:12:06):
It did everything it could to make that C-section traumatic for her.

(00:12:10):
Yeah.

(00:12:11):
Like when we talk about birth justice,

(00:12:12):
we're talking about the fact that we don't honor any woman's choices,

(00:12:15):
autonomy or safety.

(00:12:17):
across the spectrum it's like it's like it's seen as a punishment you know it's

(00:12:22):
like the process of birth is seen as a punishment and I don't know if that goes

(00:12:26):
back to you know um the the literal genesis of Christianity that we're all taught

(00:12:33):
that you know it's a curse that like childbirth is a curse and um it's almost like

(00:12:39):
this um you know it's like the retribution on you for being born a woman or

(00:12:45):
something yeah um

(00:12:47):
I don't know.

(00:12:48):
You know,

(00:12:48):
I wonder how like how deep that that programming goes,

(00:12:52):
because I think a lot of us I,

(00:12:55):
you know,

(00:12:56):
especially in red states,

(00:12:57):
which,

(00:12:58):
you know,

(00:12:58):
you're in Georgia,

(00:12:59):
I'm in Kentucky.

(00:13:03):
Those stories, those start they start really young, you know.

(00:13:09):
And so I think, you know, in some ways, we're almost like primed as women.

(00:13:15):
You know what I mean?

(00:13:17):
Yeah.

(00:13:18):
It's like your punishment.

(00:13:21):
Childbirth is the punishment for being a woman.

(00:13:23):
Yes.

(00:13:24):
And we're also taught that the rational way to be about birth is to not have any

(00:13:29):
specific feelings about it.

(00:13:31):
I have a number of women who

(00:13:33):
who like take great pride in being like, well, my birth plan is to get a healthy baby.

(00:13:38):
And I'm like,

(00:13:39):
but is it really,

(00:13:40):
shouldn't it also include not having like lifelong bladder dysfunction and not

(00:13:45):
having trauma?

(00:13:46):
Like, don't, don't you think that you deserve that?

(00:13:48):
But I think that, you know, we kind of know,

(00:13:52):
That it's not really safe to give birth in this system.

(00:13:55):
So we just fall back on this thing.

(00:13:57):
Yeah.

(00:13:58):
And, like, I mean, speaking of safety, you know, there's some psychological safety.

(00:14:03):
There's a level of psychological safety in, like, releasing your expectations, you know.

(00:14:08):
In not saying I'm going to...

(00:14:14):
put my hopes and dreams into this being um an empowering non-traumatic super

(00:14:21):
supported you know life-changing experience like it's scary you know to like um to

(00:14:31):
want to to want birth to be that good you know to want it to be

(00:14:38):
or something that we imagine that it could be and that few of us actually experience.

(00:14:44):
I think there is some psychological safety and thinking,

(00:14:49):
Just letting go of all of that and being like, I just want to live.

(00:14:53):
I just want to survive.

(00:14:55):
I'm just going to focus on the baby.

(00:14:56):
I'm going to almost disassociate my experience from the experience,

(00:15:04):
even though you literally are the center of the experience.

(00:15:07):
Yeah.

(00:15:09):
I don't know,

(00:15:10):
like,

(00:15:10):
you know,

(00:15:10):
I know that there have been times in my life when I have,

(00:15:15):
you know,

(00:15:15):
that has felt easier and safer and more comfortable to be like,

(00:15:20):
you know what,

(00:15:21):
I just have to get through it.

(00:15:23):
And whatever happens, I'm just gonna live through it.

(00:15:27):
And that's all that matters.

(00:15:29):
And of course, you know, it's it's a little bit of a

(00:15:34):
It's a false sense of comfort and security and safety because we're still

(00:15:42):
traumatized,

(00:15:43):
whether or not we're fully present in the experience or we have dissociated from

(00:15:48):
the experience.

(00:15:51):
You still get hit with that trauma.

(00:15:53):
It might just be something that's more protracted and more more under the surface,

(00:15:59):
which really makes it harder to address later.

(00:16:02):
And I think that,

(00:16:04):
you know,

(00:16:04):
a lot of women believe that they don't have expectations about the experience.

(00:16:13):
But you're still vulnerable.

(00:16:14):
You can still be traumatized.

(00:16:17):
And,

(00:16:18):
you know,

(00:16:18):
I will say I've talked to so many women when we're talking about this,

(00:16:24):
like,

(00:16:24):
oh,

(00:16:24):
it's just a natural birth thing.

(00:16:27):
I've talked to so many women who...

(00:16:31):
they weren't abused trying to have a natural birth.

(00:16:34):
They were abused with the plan of going along with the, you know, going with the flow.

(00:16:39):
They were like, I went in trusting my doctor and they fucked me.

(00:16:45):
Do you know what I'm saying?

(00:16:45):
Yeah.

(00:16:46):
Well, I think that's often when people do get hurt the most.

(00:16:51):
And I think that we've,

(00:16:52):
It's just like the classic victim blaming narrative of like,

(00:16:55):
well,

(00:16:55):
these women with their bizarre ideas about birth,

(00:16:57):
of course,

(00:16:58):
they're going to have bad births.

(00:17:00):
But,

(00:17:00):
you know,

(00:17:01):
most women aren't like me going into birth with like a lawyer and like a very

(00:17:07):
specific list of demands.

(00:17:09):
And yet most women leave birth with some degree of trauma.

(00:17:14):
And so it's not, you know, that you're wanting the wrong things.

(00:17:17):
It's being a woman in the system.

(00:17:19):
Yeah.

(00:17:20):
And also,

(00:17:20):
you know,

(00:17:21):
speaking of what it is that we all want,

(00:17:24):
the research is like pretty consistent that the majority of women don't have super

(00:17:32):
specific asks.

(00:17:33):
They're not going, I don't want this procedure.

(00:17:36):
I do want this procedure.

(00:17:37):
I don't want this.

(00:17:38):
I do want that.

(00:17:39):
Most women have the idea that birth is first and foremost a physiologic event.

(00:17:49):
That might need medical intervention and not the other way around.

(00:17:53):
Yeah.

(00:17:54):
So most women already think that way,

(00:17:57):
which I think is like a very,

(00:17:59):
a very reasonable starting point,

(00:18:01):
like a very,

(00:18:04):
very rational and logical starting point that,

(00:18:07):
yes,

(00:18:07):
like we are mammals who give birth.

(00:18:10):
We're going to give birth, whether or not there is medical intervention.

(00:18:14):
However,

(00:18:15):
medical intervention can make it better at times,

(00:18:18):
can make it more safe,

(00:18:19):
can save lives.

(00:18:22):
And then...

(00:18:24):
as we all know, if you over intervene, you can make it more dangerous.

(00:18:29):
So like,

(00:18:29):
it's actually like a super evidence-based perspective to say,

(00:18:34):
first and foremost,

(00:18:35):
I see it as a psychological,

(00:18:36):
or I'm sorry,

(00:18:37):
well,

(00:18:37):
it is psychological,

(00:18:38):
but a physiologic event.

(00:18:40):
And then yes, sometimes it needs medical intervention too.

(00:18:45):
That is already the perspective of most women.

(00:18:48):
Yeah.

(00:18:48):
Yeah.

(00:18:49):
And those are the women who are still getting abused and traumatized.

(00:18:54):
Exactly.

(00:18:55):
Sorry, what did you say?

(00:18:57):
Context matters here because with our youngest child,

(00:19:01):
I mean,

(00:19:01):
I am a natural birther through and through.

(00:19:04):
That's my personality.

(00:19:06):
That's what I want.

(00:19:07):
People, women are allowed to want things no matter what patriarchy tells us.

(00:19:12):
But with our youngest child, I had the unmedicated birth without an epidural.

(00:19:17):
So in that regard, I got what I wanted.

(00:19:18):
But

(00:19:20):
We had a number of complications.

(00:19:23):
So I ended up after four days in labor having to get some Pitocin.

(00:19:28):
And my team was like really supportive and helpful.

(00:19:31):
You know, we did a low dose.

(00:19:33):
They unplugged me when I no longer needed it.

(00:19:35):
Like I could move around.

(00:19:38):
And then she was born with some respiratory distress.

(00:19:40):
So like I got to hold her for like a second and then she had to get intubated.

(00:19:45):
But there again, like they brought her right to me.

(00:19:47):
You know, there was they didn't do any more than was necessary.

(00:19:51):
And so it was still a good birth.

(00:19:53):
But if that had been the birth of my first daughter,

(00:19:56):
who did not need any of those things,

(00:19:58):
you know,

(00:19:59):
it would have felt traumatic because then it would have been,

(00:20:00):
well,

(00:20:01):
they did all these things and they separated me from her for like no reason.

(00:20:04):
So.

(00:20:05):
This is not about like wanting to avoid medical intervention.

(00:20:08):
It's about like don't interfere with the mother's body, with the mother-baby bond.

(00:20:13):
Like don't do to women things that are not necessary that they don't want.

(00:20:17):
And like maybe we should start telling women that you are allowed to want things.

(00:20:23):
Like there's this idea in patriarchy that like we're not allowed to want anything,

(00:20:27):
you know,

(00:20:28):
whether it's a certain birth or like a Mother's Day present.

(00:20:32):
Yeah.

(00:20:33):
Yeah, I know.

(00:20:34):
It's –

(00:20:36):
I remember that being one of the really frustrating things when I first started

(00:20:41):
doing this work because I felt like I was coming at it from a pretty logical point

(00:20:46):
of view.

(00:20:47):
And then I just kept hearing what you just said over and over where people couldn't

(00:20:56):
get past the idea that I wasn't supposed to have an opinion in the first place.

(00:21:02):
When I said,

(00:21:03):
you know,

(00:21:04):
hey,

(00:21:04):
the evidence shows this or,

(00:21:06):
you know,

(00:21:06):
the the options are that or,

(00:21:09):
you know.

(00:21:13):
Having any kind of a voice whatsoever,

(00:21:15):
it was like,

(00:21:17):
oh,

(00:21:17):
no,

(00:21:17):
no,

(00:21:17):
no,

(00:21:17):
that's actually a nonstarter.

(00:21:19):
We don't want to hear from you.

(00:21:21):
If my doctor or midwife were to speak on my behalf, that would be seen as acceptable.

(00:21:28):
But for me to say,

(00:21:30):
I want this or I want that,

(00:21:32):
it was like,

(00:21:33):
oh,

(00:21:33):
well,

(00:21:34):
you're automatically suspect.

(00:21:35):
Like you're not a credible witness right off the bat.

(00:21:39):
Yeah.

(00:21:39):
Well, and there's this framing of women as selfish, entitled, spoiled princesses.

(00:21:47):
when actually they're the people who love their babies the most and who are most

(00:21:51):
invested in their baby's well-being and who will have to live with whatever happens

(00:21:56):
long after it's a distant memory for the birth team.

(00:22:01):
Yeah.

(00:22:02):
Yeah.

(00:22:03):
Well,

(00:22:03):
I mean,

(00:22:03):
and that's just actually wild to me that people say that someone could be selfish

(00:22:08):
about giving birth.

(00:22:09):
Like, giving birth in itself is, like, one of the least selfish things you can do.

(00:22:17):
It's wild that anybody could try to...

(00:22:24):
diminish that,

(00:22:25):
you know,

(00:22:26):
that,

(00:22:27):
that act of sacrifice,

(00:22:31):
um,

(00:22:31):
by saying you're selfish,

(00:22:32):
like,

(00:22:33):
like it's,

(00:22:34):
it's like,

(00:22:35):
it's like,

(00:22:35):
I'm saying I'm making this huge sacrifice and I'm making this sacrifice on my own

(00:22:39):
terms.

(00:22:40):
And people are like, how dare you?

(00:22:43):
Well,

(00:22:44):
I think you're hitting on something there because I,

(00:22:46):
I do think diminishing all of the really intensely meaningful aspects of birth is

(00:22:51):
kind of the goal here.

(00:22:53):
I mean, I think

(00:22:54):
that a big part of the reason that we have patriarchy is because it seems to me

(00:22:58):
that women are the ones who have the most natural power,

(00:23:02):
given that we make people.

(00:23:04):
And I think that's very scary to men.

(00:23:06):
And I think that patriarchy has been the story of men trying to control and yeah,

(00:23:13):
just trying to control our ability to make people.

(00:23:15):
And I think we see that in the battlefield that is obstetrics and

(00:23:22):
Yeah.

(00:23:23):
I mean, for birthing women to exist in the patriarchy, you have to be a vessel.

(00:23:28):
Yeah.

(00:23:28):
Like, that's the only way you fit into the picture.

(00:23:33):
And so that is why I think there's all this pushback when a birthing person shows

(00:23:37):
up as someone with agency.

(00:23:39):
Yeah.

(00:23:40):
Yeah.

(00:23:41):
Okay.

(00:23:41):
So when Jeff and I did our podcast on birth about a year ago,

(00:23:45):
we got more negative feedback on that than any other topic.

(00:23:48):
And I didn't feel like we were making very controversial assertions.

(00:23:51):
You know,

(00:23:51):
we were talking about how racism is a known fact in maternity care and sexism is a

(00:23:56):
known fact.

(00:23:58):
But most of the feedback that we got was from doctors and other clinicians who

(00:24:03):
depicted themselves as like the real victims.

(00:24:07):
They're being maligned and it's not fair and it's hurting them.

(00:24:10):
and who denied the existence of racism and sexism in maternity care.

(00:24:13):
This is like so alarming to me because the people who are creating and replicating

(00:24:20):
a harmful system feel aggrieved and victimized.

(00:24:24):
And because the research has proven these biases exist,

(00:24:28):
and also that the more you deny the existence of your own bias,

(00:24:33):
the more likely you are to weaponize those biases against your patients.

(00:24:41):
I definitely think the way we treat women during birth essentially sets them up for

(00:24:45):
all of the maltreatment motherhood entails and that that strong backlash we get

(00:24:49):
when we start talking about that speaks to that.

(00:24:53):
But what do you say to these skeptical doctors who are like,

(00:24:56):
oh,

(00:24:56):
we're just being bullied by the natural birth warriors?

(00:25:05):
It's just...

(00:25:09):
I'm trying to, by the way, how am I diplomatic about this?

(00:25:15):
I guess it just seems like such a replication to me of like historical power

(00:25:23):
dynamics that have,

(00:25:24):
you know,

(00:25:25):
we've seen this throughout history.

(00:25:27):
Guys,

(00:25:28):
pick up a history book,

(00:25:29):
figure out who you are in the,

(00:25:33):
you know,

(00:25:34):
on the stage,

(00:25:35):
in the play that's happening.

(00:25:37):
you can see what part you're playing,

(00:25:40):
and then if you can have,

(00:25:42):
like,

(00:25:43):
a little bit of perspective on that,

(00:25:45):
then you can see really clearly that you're the ones with almost all of the power.

(00:25:50):
Yeah.

(00:25:53):
It's just kind of laughable to me that they would,

(00:25:59):
that someone would,

(00:26:00):
you know,

(00:26:00):
try to call themselves a victim as the person with all the power.

(00:26:05):
That's not to say that they can never be victimized, but it really is about perspective.

(00:26:12):
You know, I look at it as like, you know, I'm a white woman, right?

(00:26:15):
I...

(00:26:18):
am both victimized by the patriarchy and I also get some benefits as a matter of

(00:26:24):
fact,

(00:26:25):
especially in my proximity to non-white women.

(00:26:29):
So

(00:26:32):
I can be,

(00:26:34):
and I'm sure I have been an oppressor of black women while also being severely

(00:26:41):
abused by white men.

(00:26:43):
Like it's all about perspective.

(00:26:47):
In fact,

(00:26:47):
like before we even,

(00:26:49):
I think started recording,

(00:26:50):
we were,

(00:26:51):
we actually had a little bit of a conversation about sort of like victimhood in

(00:26:57):
general.

(00:26:58):
And yeah,

(00:27:00):
It's an interesting... It's hard to get into because, you know, it really takes...

(00:27:06):
it takes self-awareness and inner work,

(00:27:10):
I think,

(00:27:10):
to be able to get to a place where you can even,

(00:27:15):
you've got to be able to like beat through the cognitive dissonance that you're so

(00:27:20):
kind of enmeshed in to see yourself clearly and to be able to process,

(00:27:28):
I have hurt people.

(00:27:30):
It doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

(00:27:32):
You know what I mean?

(00:27:33):
Like,

(00:27:35):
It doesn't mean that you are an irredeemable villain.

(00:27:42):
It means that all of us at some point hurt other people.

(00:27:47):
Now, in this case, there's a really identifiable pattern to the hurt.

(00:27:53):
And so I think it's really crucial for anybody to have self-awareness about where

(00:27:59):
they fit into the...

(00:28:02):
the kind of like oppression matrix, you know, um,

(00:28:07):
Yeah, I don't know.

(00:28:08):
I mean,

(00:28:08):
you know,

(00:28:09):
closing thought,

(00:28:11):
it's kind of silly to me that a health care provider would consider themselves to

(00:28:18):
be a victim.

(00:28:20):
Actually, you know what?

(00:28:22):
Let me tweak that statement a little bit.

(00:28:24):
I could see how on an individual level that could possibly be true.

(00:28:29):
On a systemic level, absolutely not in any framework that you're looking at.

(00:28:36):
Yeah.

(00:28:37):
I mean, at a certain point, we have to just tell people, be serious.

(00:28:42):
If we want to talk about,

(00:28:43):
oh,

(00:28:44):
these crunchy moms are not listening to science,

(00:28:48):
the people who are not listening to science are the people who are not listening to

(00:28:52):
the overwhelming science showing that racism and misogyny,

(00:28:56):
not to mention classism,

(00:28:57):
ableism,

(00:28:58):
every other ism,

(00:28:59):
are rife in birth culture and that these have real effects.

(00:29:03):
So if you want to be a scientist,

(00:29:06):
pay attention to that too.

(00:29:09):
Yeah.

(00:29:10):
It makes me think of,

(00:29:12):
I know this is going to sound,

(00:29:15):
you know,

(00:29:16):
dramatic,

(00:29:17):
but it reminds me of when one of my,

(00:29:21):
one of the women I have worked with for years now who was assaulted in birth,

(00:29:29):
she referred to,

(00:29:32):
she said,

(00:29:34):
the hospital is my Brock Turner.

(00:29:37):
Wow.

(00:29:38):
And it was.

(00:29:41):
You know,

(00:29:41):
it was it's just like a story form of what you're talking about,

(00:29:45):
where she was physically assaulted.

(00:29:48):
She was first defrauded in the you know,

(00:29:50):
in the first place to in going to the hospital because they had promised her

(00:29:55):
certain services that did not manifest when she got there.

(00:30:01):
And then she was physically assaulted.

(00:30:04):
psychologically traumatized,

(00:30:06):
you know,

(00:30:07):
had PTSD for the first time in her life,

(00:30:09):
being a super healthy person physically and mentally prior to this birth.

(00:30:16):
So she came out of it both psychologically traumatized and debilitated physically

(00:30:23):
because of primarily because of a nerve injury that she received at the hospital.

(00:30:28):
And she ended up suing the hospital and she

(00:30:32):
The whole trial, you know, they portrayed themselves as kind of the victim in the situation.

(00:30:38):
You know, it was very just, you know, they were just being the good guy this whole time.

(00:30:47):
And they just did everything they could to save her baby.

(00:30:50):
And it's too bad she's so ungrateful about it.

(00:30:54):
Yeah, it's too bad she just wanted her baby dead.

(00:30:56):
Like, we say that about women without saying that about women.

(00:30:59):
And it's so false.

(00:31:00):
All the time.

(00:31:02):
Yeah, it's, it's super frustrating.

(00:31:04):
I mean,

(00:31:04):
it's like,

(00:31:07):
you know,

(00:31:07):
speaking of perspective,

(00:31:09):
like,

(00:31:10):
I'm,

(00:31:12):
I'm risking my life to have this baby.

(00:31:15):
And you're gonna tell me that I am willy nilly.

(00:31:24):
making choices that would throw my baby's life away because I want a better experience.

(00:31:31):
That happens over and over and over and over.

(00:31:35):
You know,

(00:31:35):
I've seen so many apology letters or heard so many apologies,

(00:31:42):
hospital or doctor to patient,

(00:31:45):
where it's very...

(00:31:48):
you know,

(00:31:48):
we're sorry that you didn't get the experience you wanted,

(00:31:53):
but we had to keep your baby safe.

(00:31:56):
Now, the unwritten part of that is from you, right?

(00:32:01):
Like, I'm sorry you're a bad mom.

(00:32:03):
Yeah.

(00:32:03):
I mean, that's what they're implying that the mother is prioritizing.

(00:32:08):
Gosh, back in the day, it was always...

(00:32:12):
She didn't get the, you know, the scented candles she wanted and, you know, the low lighting.

(00:32:18):
And that's why she's so mad.

(00:32:19):
And it's, you know, it's just a false narrative.

(00:32:25):
I mean, you look at you look at any of these stories.

(00:32:27):
Girl, nobody's getting traumatized by not having the right candles in the room.

(00:32:32):
You're getting traumatized by.

(00:32:35):
Because you're completely helpless at the mercy of strangers who have no

(00:32:42):
consideration for your autonomy,

(00:32:45):
for your psychological welfare,

(00:32:48):
for the bonding,

(00:32:50):
not interfering with the bonding,

(00:32:52):
or recklessly interfering with the bonding between you and your baby.

(00:32:56):
Yeah, that's enormously traumatizing.

(00:33:00):
And, you know, and a lot of times it's people who...

(00:33:06):
Consent is not even in the room.

(00:33:09):
It's not a discussion.

(00:33:11):
You're told what's going to happen to you.

(00:33:14):
And unfortunately,

(00:33:16):
that is largely determined just by where you happen to be when you give birth.

(00:33:22):
What they happen to do at that hospital,

(00:33:26):
not based on who you are as an individual and your actual medical,

(00:33:32):
physical,

(00:33:33):
emotional,

(00:33:34):
psychological needs.

(00:33:35):
So,

(00:33:36):
you know,

(00:33:37):
it's like if you're put on this like assembly line that might involve somebody

(00:33:45):
cutting your perineum with a pair of scissors.

(00:33:51):
Like, yeah, that's a little more than, you know, not getting the candles you wanted.

(00:33:57):
Yeah.

(00:33:58):
Yeah.

(00:33:58):
But it's all, we guilt mothers for everything.

(00:34:02):
Because again, we think mothers are not allowed to want things.

(00:34:05):
And we also think that anything a woman actually needs to be okay is just a want.

(00:34:09):
Like women don't have needs and they're not allowed to have wants.

(00:34:13):
We're just vessels.

(00:34:14):
It's just enraging.

(00:34:15):
Yeah.

(00:34:15):
I mean, you see this in postpartum and like, you know, that's like, it's enraging.

(00:34:21):
Like, you know, like the women who like, um,

(00:34:27):
You know, I see them on social media all the time.

(00:34:29):
Yeah.

(00:34:31):
I mean, I know what you're about to get into because it's just.

(00:34:34):
Yeah.

(00:34:34):
And like just the throes of postpartum and they've got a they've got a partner

(00:34:41):
who's complaining that they're being,

(00:34:43):
you know,

(00:34:43):
woken up in the middle of the night from the baby crying.

(00:34:46):
Yeah.

(00:34:48):
While this person is recovering from major surgery or recovering from a vaginal

(00:34:54):
birth,

(00:34:55):
which may or may not have involved,

(00:34:56):
you know,

(00:34:57):
stitches or,

(00:34:58):
you know,

(00:34:59):
some kind of operative delivery or,

(00:35:01):
you know,

(00:35:01):
whatever.

(00:35:03):
Not to mention,

(00:35:04):
like,

(00:35:04):
even if you had the least complicated natural birth in the whole world,

(00:35:08):
you still need...

(00:35:10):
a lot of recovery time.

(00:35:11):
Yeah.

(00:35:12):
Your body was like feeling a wound inside.

(00:35:15):
I was shocked by how, you know, with my first, I mean, I had like a textbook natural birth.

(00:35:22):
I mean, it was like a long labor and she was big, but I didn't get injured.

(00:35:26):
Everybody took great care of me.

(00:35:28):
I also have like a great partner who was truly doing his share.

(00:35:32):
And I was shocked by like how vulnerable I felt in the recovery.

(00:35:37):
And I remember thinking like,

(00:35:39):
I don't see how any woman in the world who does not have a good partner like survives this.

(00:35:45):
I don't see it because it's so hard and so vulnerable.

(00:35:51):
Yeah.

(00:35:52):
Yeah.

(00:35:52):
I mean, I didn't have a partner and postpartum was – it was miserable.

(00:35:59):
I also didn't have like a robust support system.

(00:36:05):
You know what I mean?

(00:36:05):
Yeah.

(00:36:06):
I had people who were like –

(00:36:08):
absolutely willing to help if I asked for help right yeah um and and like that is

(00:36:13):
it is like no knock on them like they did everything they thought they were

(00:36:19):
supposed to do you know what I mean like they were absolutely acting out of like

(00:36:23):
the best motives and out of love and care and compassion and all of those things um

(00:36:29):
however you know it is just like this cultural thing that women are first expected

(00:36:36):
to um

(00:36:38):
um be responsible during postpartum as opposed to like oh hey you're terribly

(00:36:47):
vulnerable during this time and this is it is like the job of family neighbors

(00:36:54):
community support systems to come in and make sure that like you don't have to

(00:36:58):
worry about anything like

(00:37:00):
Like you shouldn't have to worry about laundry and dishes and,

(00:37:05):
you know,

(00:37:05):
God forbid taking care of a partner or other children that,

(00:37:12):
who could be helped by someone else at that point.

(00:37:15):
You know what I mean?

(00:37:16):
Well, and it's like, what does the village do instead of like stepping in and helping?

(00:37:20):
It goes like this, you know, woman comes home from the hospital.

(00:37:24):
She's probably got an injury statistically.

(00:37:26):
She's statistically probably experienced some trauma and probably hasn't had a

(00:37:31):
partner who's been there to help her during this huge rite of passage and has

(00:37:35):
undermined it in some way.

(00:37:36):
So she's already got a psychological and a physical wound.

(00:37:40):
And then she's going to be sleep deprived while the lazy man next to her doesn't do anything.

(00:37:45):
Then she's going to struggle with breastfeeding.

(00:37:47):
There's going to be chores.

(00:37:48):
There's maybe going to be other kids.

(00:37:50):
She's going to be more exhausted than any human being could imagine.

(00:37:54):
And then at some point she'll post on like a mom group and be like,

(00:37:59):
so I had birth trauma and now I'm paying myself and I had all this stuff happen to

(00:38:04):
me during birth that I need to process that I can't.

(00:38:06):
And

(00:38:07):
my partner's not participating in the child that he helped make and I'm not sleeping.

(00:38:12):
What should I do?

(00:38:13):
And the first comment is always, have you been screened for postpartum depression?

(00:38:18):
Instead of like, have you been screened for having a shitty partner in a shitty system?

(00:38:23):
And I feel like as soon as she accepts,

(00:38:26):
oh yeah,

(00:38:26):
it must be my crazy woman hormones causing me to feel this way.

(00:38:31):
It's like, then the loop has been closed and she has finally accepted her

(00:38:35):
denigrated, devalued role as a person who is not entitled to anything.

(00:38:42):
Yeah.

(00:38:42):
It's always just, it always just ends with, well, this is just how it is.

(00:38:46):
Yeah.

(00:38:48):
And like, it doesn't have to be.

(00:38:51):
No.

(00:38:51):
And I'll tell you what,

(00:38:52):
as hard as postpartum was,

(00:38:53):
I would have been suicidal if I had to also take care of a partner during that

(00:38:58):
time.

(00:39:00):
Or not even take care of just like,

(00:39:05):
watch that person not help yeah or um you know make more work for me I don't think

(00:39:13):
I could have like literally could have handled that I'm not even joking when I say

(00:39:17):
that like

(00:39:18):
I mean,

(00:39:19):
the amount of,

(00:39:19):
like,

(00:39:20):
abuse I see from women with partners,

(00:39:23):
when I did my survey of women's postpartum experiences,

(00:39:27):
it was something like 80 or 90% of them who experienced some form of abuse from

(00:39:32):
their partners in the immediate postpartum period,

(00:39:34):
whether it was,

(00:39:35):
like,

(00:39:36):
forcing them to have sex,

(00:39:38):
calling them names,

(00:39:39):
hitting them.

(00:39:39):
For a lot of them, the abuse started for the first time ever in the postpartum period.

(00:39:44):
Truly horrific events.

(00:39:46):
To see what we are doing to women.

(00:39:49):
And also, like, truly a testament to how strong women are.

(00:39:53):
That women endure this.

(00:39:54):
And then they just get up and live their lives.

(00:39:57):
Yeah.

(00:39:58):
Yeah.

(00:39:59):
But, I mean, there's a cost, you know?

(00:40:00):
Yeah, there is a cost.

(00:40:06):
You know,

(00:40:07):
when you're describing those things,

(00:40:10):
all I can think of is,

(00:40:11):
like,

(00:40:12):
you sound like you're describing...

(00:40:16):
People who are property.

(00:40:18):
Yeah.

(00:40:21):
And that's what we want women to be.

(00:40:26):
Like, that's what this is.

(00:40:27):
It's the complete dehumanization of women.

(00:40:30):
Yeah.

(00:40:30):
So let me, okay.

(00:40:31):
I'm going to like talk about the other side of the coin just for a minute here.

(00:40:36):
I'm going to talk about rest and healing.

(00:40:39):
Yeah.

(00:40:41):
As an antidote to this is just the way it is,

(00:40:44):
which is being hurt,

(00:40:47):
injured,

(00:40:48):
traumatized,

(00:40:49):
devalued,

(00:40:50):
degraded in all of these ways.

(00:40:53):
To...

(00:40:56):
To heal from trauma, like your brain literally needs rest.

(00:41:02):
It can't heal when you're continuously in survival mode,

(00:41:06):
which is what postpartum usually is,

(00:41:09):
is like absolute survival mode for a really long time.

(00:41:13):
Yeah.

(00:41:17):
The rest part, it's like the rest is necessary for the healing.

(00:41:24):
And the healing is necessary for the wholeness, you know, for...

(00:41:31):
and it's not even getting back to,

(00:41:33):
you know,

(00:41:33):
there's,

(00:41:33):
there's really no such thing as going back to a normal.

(00:41:36):
It's you,

(00:41:37):
you have now become a different version of yourself post post birth,

(00:41:41):
post post parenthood.

(00:41:43):
You are a different version of yourself.

(00:41:45):
There's no way that you can't expand, you know, in certain ways to meet that.

(00:41:52):
And I think about like,

(00:41:55):
from the perspective of,

(00:41:57):
like,

(00:41:58):
energy and creativity,

(00:42:00):
how I have watched those things wax and wane in my life,

(00:42:10):
like,

(00:42:10):
directly,

(00:42:13):
direct,

(00:42:13):
in direct correlation to

(00:42:17):
where I am like on my trauma scale, if that makes any sense.

(00:42:20):
Yeah.

(00:42:22):
You know, there were so many years when I was so...

(00:42:28):
sleep deprived and literally traumatized,

(00:42:30):
you know,

(00:42:31):
like I,

(00:42:31):
I had,

(00:42:32):
I had an amount of birth trauma,

(00:42:34):
nothing like,

(00:42:35):
you know,

(00:42:36):
most of the women that I work with.

(00:42:38):
Um,

(00:42:38):
but I did have an amount of birth trauma that really did not come around for me for

(00:42:43):
like 10 years.

(00:42:44):
Like it didn't even, I, you know, I said for years, I did not have a traumatic birth.

(00:42:49):
Um, and I didn't really face that for like 10, 10 years.

(00:42:52):
Um,

(00:42:54):
And then, you know, I had all these other, you know, pressures in my private life.

(00:43:01):
And it wasn't until,

(00:43:02):
like,

(00:43:03):
those pressures released for various reasons that suddenly I found myself able to

(00:43:10):
write or to draw or to paint or to embroider,

(00:43:19):
to literally...

(00:43:21):
have like a part of my creative brain light up that had not lit up in years.

(00:43:26):
And one of the really important,

(00:43:29):
I think like critical aspects of this is like the part of your imagination and your

(00:43:34):
creativity that allow you to imagine a different future.

(00:43:38):
Yeah.

(00:43:40):
So the years that I was like really stuck in like deep trauma and

(00:43:46):
I could never imagine anything else.

(00:43:49):
It was just, you're in this tunnel and you're going to be in this tunnel.

(00:43:55):
And that's it.

(00:43:56):
Like there was no...

(00:43:58):
there was no vision beyond that whatsoever.

(00:44:02):
And so when we're talking about sort of like the longer term costs of all of these

(00:44:07):
things,

(00:44:09):
I look at it as like losing years of my life.

(00:44:13):
You know,

(00:44:13):
those were years that I was able to keep myself alive and keep my baby,

(00:44:19):
my child alive.

(00:44:22):
And yeah,

(00:44:23):
I don't feel like I did much more than that.

(00:44:26):
You know, it was, you know, survival mode is not living.

(00:44:32):
It's being alive, but it's not living.

(00:44:36):
Well, I just want to point out, I like, I believe you and hear that that's the mode you were in.

(00:44:42):
But you did a lot in survival mode.

(00:44:44):
So I

(00:44:47):
I think, you know, that's something I always keep in mind.

(00:44:49):
I did, but that's all I did.

(00:44:51):
Yeah, that's true.

(00:44:54):
So, okay.

(00:44:55):
And it's funny you say this because I was just thinking about this the other day.

(00:44:57):
I was thinking about the difference between my interior experience versus,

(00:45:03):
like,

(00:45:03):
my,

(00:45:04):
you know,

(00:45:05):
what other people would see happening,

(00:45:07):
right?

(00:45:08):
So you might come over to my house and go, oh, my gosh, this is so cute.

(00:45:12):
I love how you've decorated things.

(00:45:15):
Things are neat and pretty and, you know, whatever.

(00:45:20):
And wow,

(00:45:22):
you've,

(00:45:24):
you know,

(00:45:24):
you're speaking at these different conferences around the country and the world and

(00:45:29):
you've put out all this material and you're whatever.

(00:45:32):
But

(00:45:35):
It took every bit of energy I had to make any of that happen.

(00:45:39):
And I didn't enjoy any of it.

(00:45:42):
It was just like my interior experience was I have to get up again today.

(00:45:49):
God damn it.

(00:45:52):
Oh, I really don't.

(00:45:53):
I don't want to.

(00:45:54):
Yeah.

(00:45:56):
But I have to meet these markers.

(00:45:58):
I have to my house has to look a certain way because,

(00:46:01):
you know,

(00:46:02):
somebody stopping by,

(00:46:03):
you know,

(00:46:05):
it's got to look like this.

(00:46:06):
I didn't enjoy it.

(00:46:07):
It wasn't like, oh, I love my home.

(00:46:11):
And, you know, I I just like delight in existing in this beautiful environment.

(00:46:17):
Yeah.

(00:46:18):
No, not at all.

(00:46:21):
It was just like, God, I got to keep up the, you know, sort of keep up appearances in this way.

(00:46:27):
But but but also from like a very realistic point of view,

(00:46:30):
like not just keep up appearances,

(00:46:32):
but like you you can't neglect basics like,

(00:46:35):
you know,

(00:46:36):
eating and,

(00:46:37):
you know,

(00:46:38):
having clean dishes and having clean clothes and stuff like that.

(00:46:42):
So like, I don't know, like from the outside, it might look like this person's fucking

(00:46:45):
functioning great um and wow look at all this work she's doing but like what was

(00:46:50):
actually happening like behind closed doors was I didn't do anything else except

(00:46:56):
just manage to like produce the the work that other people saw yeah um I wasn't

(00:47:03):
like there was no like enjoyment of life like it sucked I hated it well and that

(00:47:12):
does suck for someone who's contributing so much to like

(00:47:15):
not enjoy it.

(00:47:16):
But the reason I raise that, well, I raise it for two reasons.

(00:47:19):
Well, hold on.

(00:47:20):
Wait, let me say one more thing.

(00:47:21):
Sorry.

(00:47:22):
Because I think this is important.

(00:47:24):
I also think,

(00:47:25):
and I totally did not pick up on this at the time,

(00:47:27):
it was only,

(00:47:28):
it was later that I realized that

(00:47:32):
I was driven by my trauma, like the trauma that I didn't acknowledge for 10 years.

(00:47:37):
That was what was driving me.

(00:47:39):
So if other people look at those things,

(00:47:42):
whatever I did,

(00:47:42):
if they see it as an accomplishment,

(00:47:45):
it didn't feel like an accomplishment to me.

(00:47:47):
It felt like I had to do it in order to survive,

(00:47:51):
if that makes any sense,

(00:47:52):
because I was actually being strongly driven by my own trauma.

(00:47:56):
So that was...

(00:48:00):
you know,

(00:48:00):
it was a very different experience to me than to like what someone might have

(00:48:06):
looked at from the outside.

(00:48:08):
Like there was no point where I was like appreciating the accolades and being like, yay.

(00:48:13):
It was like, no, actually I'm super depressed.

(00:48:18):
The more I get into this work, the worse it is.

(00:48:23):
Okay.

(00:48:23):
Sorry.

(00:48:23):
I just had to say that.

(00:48:24):
No, no.

(00:48:25):
It's I'm glad that you said that because so I kind of have,

(00:48:29):
I have a counter experience.

(00:48:31):
And I often hesitate to talk about how birth affected me because so many people

(00:48:36):
have had really horrific births.

(00:48:38):
And my first birth was really a wonderful birth.

(00:48:43):
And I have a wonderful partner and a network of women who helped me.

(00:48:48):
And so the effect of giving birth and then going through postpartum for me was magical.

(00:48:56):
It was like a process of

(00:48:58):
stepping into my power and becoming a fundamentally different person who felt like

(00:49:05):
a strong sense of solidarity with other women.

(00:49:08):
Because after my birth,

(00:49:10):
I didn't come away saying,

(00:49:11):
oh,

(00:49:12):
like I'm so special because I birthed that way,

(00:49:14):
or it's so different for me.

(00:49:15):
I came away thinking, oh my God, look at what women do.

(00:49:19):
And it has, it's driven me.

(00:49:22):
And

(00:49:24):
It made me much more aware of how many women are deprived of that experience and

(00:49:29):
how depriving women of that experience is depriving them of really immense power.

(00:49:35):
And that's not an accident.

(00:49:37):
And it's not like something that we can just ignore.

(00:49:41):
Birth can be an immense source of power and meaning no matter how you give birth.

(00:49:46):
And it should be because it's hard and because it's making life and because it's a

(00:49:51):
rite of passage and you should be supported.

(00:49:53):
And instead,

(00:49:54):
we take this moment that should be a source of power and we turn it into a source

(00:49:58):
of degradation.

(00:49:59):
And I just will never believe that that's an accident.

(00:50:03):
Yeah, well, as you're saying that, I'm thinking of the parallels with sex.

(00:50:10):
Something that,

(00:50:11):
you know,

(00:50:12):
there is a strong parallel in,

(00:50:14):
you know,

(00:50:14):
when it comes to,

(00:50:15):
like,

(00:50:16):
consensual experiences.

(00:50:18):
You know, if you go through sex that is not consensual is rape, right?

(00:50:25):
It's an assault.

(00:50:27):
And you can say the same thing about sex.

(00:50:32):
maternity care that is forced or non-consensual, that it is an assault.

(00:50:38):
And many women will also say it feels like rape.

(00:50:42):
And yes, I know how that sounds.

(00:50:44):
And for many years, I wouldn't even say that publicly.

(00:50:48):
But the reality is I can't tell you the number of women who have like unprompted

(00:50:54):
said my birth felt like rape.

(00:50:58):
I think that these things are, they're actually so closely tied.

(00:51:05):
Coming out of a rape situation.

(00:51:09):
is a soul killer.

(00:51:11):
As someone who is a survivor myself and can speak to it,

(00:51:17):
it fundamentally alters your sense of self.

(00:51:20):
It changes the way you think about the future,

(00:51:23):
about your identity,

(00:51:24):
about what you're capable of,

(00:51:26):
about how safe the world is,

(00:51:27):
about whether you can trust people.

(00:51:29):
I mean, it changes, it alters your path in life in a lot of ways.

(00:51:35):
I can't speak for everyone, but I think that's true for most people.

(00:51:40):
And, but you can also say sex can be a literal sacred experience.

(00:51:49):
It could be life changing in the best way, right?

(00:51:53):
It can be like this incredible, almost spiritual thing that opens like totally new doors in you.

(00:52:02):
And I would say the same about birth.

(00:52:05):
You know, these are, these are places where

(00:52:09):
they're moments where transformation is possible and deep transformation in

(00:52:17):
different directions.

(00:52:18):
And so it's like even more reason to take so much care in that space,

(00:52:25):
um,

(00:52:25):
as support people and medical providers to like safeguard the psychological and

(00:52:32):
emotional wellbeing of that person.

(00:52:34):
Um, um,

(00:52:40):
I can't, like, I'm trying to think about, like, how to... I don't know.

(00:52:46):
It just seems so obvious to me, you know, to, like, to think of.

(00:52:52):
And I'm like, oh, how graphic do I get with this?

(00:52:55):
But, like, it just seems really obvious to me.

(00:52:57):
Like,

(00:52:58):
you know,

(00:52:58):
the difference between,

(00:52:59):
you know,

(00:53:00):
healthy sex and rape could be someone saying...

(00:53:06):
Oh, are you okay?

(00:53:09):
You look off.

(00:53:10):
Yeah.

(00:53:11):
Are you sure?

(00:53:12):
Is this what you want?

(00:53:13):
I mean, I think that's a great parallel.

(00:53:16):
And it's actually one,

(00:53:17):
I mean,

(00:53:18):
I have also talked to so many women who say that their births are like rape and

(00:53:22):
immediately intuitively understand why that is and what they mean.

(00:53:27):
But this is the first time I've really thought about kind of the parallels between

(00:53:30):
like essentially non-consensual birth practices and non-consensual sex.

(00:53:35):
I think you're spot on.

(00:53:36):
Yeah.

(00:53:37):
Well,

(00:53:37):
and I also want to say,

(00:53:39):
you know,

(00:53:39):
like I said a minute ago,

(00:53:40):
I didn't say that publicly for a really long time because I felt like,

(00:53:44):
ah,

(00:53:44):
that sounds really extreme.

(00:53:46):
It sounds really, you know, like wacky.

(00:53:48):
Like only someone who's like mentally unwell would make a statement like that,

(00:53:55):
which was my own...

(00:53:57):
misogyny honestly yeah um because the more i heard that statement and the more i

(00:54:04):
realized that like actually this is coming from rape survivors who are saying this

(00:54:10):
they have experienced both of these things and they are comparing them this isn't

(00:54:15):
just like some like wacky feminist activist who's like making up shit you know

(00:54:21):
these are again unprompted un um

(00:54:26):
unsolicited comparisons by people who have experienced like both non-consensual

(00:54:32):
maternity care and non-consensual sex.

(00:54:36):
And they're saying they felt the same or similar.

(00:54:40):
Well,

(00:54:40):
I also think that mentally unwell comment you made is so interesting because

(00:54:45):
there's such a concerted effort to police what women activists say publicly.

(00:54:51):
And we turn that policing on ourselves and are constantly afraid of

(00:54:56):
misstepping.

(00:54:58):
And often the way that we're afraid of misstepping is by being crazy and asserting

(00:55:03):
that someone like cutting open your vagina is like rape is about the least crazy

(00:55:09):
thing I can think of.

(00:55:11):
But we all have these worries of appearing to be crazy because patriarchy wants us

(00:55:16):
to just be quiet.

(00:55:18):
Yeah, you know what?

(00:55:20):
I'm going to take this a step further,

(00:55:21):
and I'm going to say,

(00:55:23):
just to really,

(00:55:23):
like,

(00:55:24):
fuck with people's minds,

(00:55:26):
think about this.

(00:55:28):
There is also, ready?

(00:55:30):
There is sexual assault that occurs in maternity care.

(00:55:38):
I think the statistic is something like 6% or 8%.

(00:55:41):
It's pretty high.

(00:55:43):
Yeah.

(00:55:45):
So, and here, like, we got to, like,

(00:55:48):
define some things.

(00:55:49):
Right.

(00:55:50):
Um,

(00:55:53):
whether we are talking about the perspective of the victim or the,

(00:55:57):
we're going to call them perpetrator is important because I think you would have a

(00:56:03):
much higher percentage of patients and women saying that felt like assault,

(00:56:08):
like a sexual assault.

(00:56:10):
Yeah.

(00:56:11):
Then you would ever, ever, ever have a provider saying I intended to commit a sexual assault.

(00:56:17):
Like I'm a predator and

(00:56:20):
a sexual predator and I prey on vulnerable women in the birth setting.

(00:56:25):
Right.

(00:56:26):
Is is it is an infinitesimal number compared to the providers who inadvertently who

(00:56:34):
are committing acts who women interpret as sexual assault.

(00:56:38):
All right.

(00:56:39):
So stick with me here on this nuance.

(00:56:42):
There are though, there, or there is that small number, which I don't know that number.

(00:56:48):
And I, I haven't heard that six to 8%.

(00:56:50):
I would love to see where you, where you got that, you know, what they had to say about that.

(00:56:57):
But yes, there are also people who like intentionally commit sexual assault in birth.

(00:57:03):
And I've talked to

(00:57:05):
many of their victims.

(00:57:08):
And do you think that a woman can prove that she was sexually assaulted by an OBGYN

(00:57:15):
or a nurse midwife or a nurse in obstetrics?

(00:57:20):
It's almost impossible to

(00:57:23):
It takes so much...

(00:57:25):
It takes,

(00:57:26):
like,

(00:57:27):
you know,

(00:57:27):
1 million percent evidence to prove something like that.

(00:57:32):
The cases that you'll see,

(00:57:34):
if you were to Google it,

(00:57:36):
it's people who did it for 10,

(00:57:38):
15,

(00:57:49):
20 years and had dozens,

(00:57:42):
hundreds of victims before anything was...

(00:57:47):
You know,

(00:57:47):
action was actually taken.

(00:57:49):
And often lots of witnesses who...

(00:57:52):
either ignored it and did nothing or who thought,

(00:57:55):
well,

(00:57:56):
it must not have seemed like,

(00:57:58):
or who deliberately covered it up.

(00:58:01):
Oh, absolutely.

(00:58:02):
Well, I mean, you know, and, and many hospitals do that.

(00:58:05):
We know this,

(00:58:06):
you know,

(00:58:06):
like that's,

(00:58:08):
um,

(00:58:09):
one of the things that I do,

(00:58:10):
um,

(00:58:12):
is,

(00:58:13):
um,

(00:58:14):
I help people report instances of abuse in obstetrics and,

(00:58:20):
um,

(00:58:22):
one of the things we know is like the first thing that most people do or think of

(00:58:27):
when they think like,

(00:58:28):
Oh,

(00:58:28):
I want to come.

(00:58:29):
I want to make a complaint or I want to report this to someone is they go directly

(00:58:33):
to the hospital where the act took place.

(00:58:37):
And who y'all like,

(00:58:39):
if you think that hospitals are like waiting to hold your hand and,

(00:58:44):
and you know,

(00:58:46):
go take accountability for this stuff and make sure it never happens again.

(00:58:50):
Like, do you have another thing coming?

(00:58:52):
That literally does not happen.

(00:58:55):
It doesn't happen.

(00:58:56):
And in all of these lawsuits that you look at the hospital,

(00:59:00):
I mean,

(00:59:00):
there were all kinds of reports made and the hospital deliberately,

(00:59:04):
you know,

(00:59:05):
made a choice.

(00:59:08):
Somehow this dude's still working there 10,

(00:59:11):
15,

(00:59:15):
20 years later,

(00:59:11):
you know,

(00:59:13):
I'm thinking of,

(00:59:14):
in fact,

(00:59:15):
like,

(00:59:16):
A colleague I work with really closely now who I met through my work,

(00:59:22):
she was actually more of like a client than a colleague back then.

(00:59:25):
I don't know, maybe 2017, 2018.

(00:59:26):
She contacted me because she was a nurse and she

(00:59:35):
she had witnessed a doctor commit a physical,

(00:59:39):
like a pretty violent physical assault on a birthing person,

(00:59:43):
a woman.

(00:59:44):
And when she went to report it, she got in trouble.

(00:59:49):
The,

(00:59:50):
the,

(00:59:50):
you know,

(00:59:50):
the first thing they said was her manager,

(00:59:53):
whoever it was,

(00:59:53):
the,

(00:59:54):
you know,

(00:59:54):
the person above her,

(00:59:55):
the person above the person above her said,

(00:59:58):
when you write that report before you submit it,

(01:00:00):
we need you to edit it.

(01:00:02):
You can't call that, you can't use the word assault.

(01:00:03):
Yeah.

(01:00:04):
you're not qualified to make that call.

(01:00:11):
You can't call that by that name.

(01:00:15):
Only a doctor would be able to determine if that was what we would call an assault.

(01:00:24):
So that was a nurse who firsthand witnessed what happened and

(01:00:32):
Put her name on a report,

(01:00:34):
you know,

(01:00:34):
like what more can you ask of people like that's she did what she was supposed to

(01:00:39):
do.

(01:00:40):
And she was told, don't use that language.

(01:00:44):
And then she was, you know, essentially let go after that.

(01:00:50):
And,

(01:00:51):
um,

(01:00:52):
and they,

(01:00:52):
you know,

(01:00:52):
they kind of came after her even,

(01:00:54):
even after that with like punitive measures.

(01:00:57):
So that's the kind of stuff that that's, that's, that's normal.

(01:01:00):
Like, that's what I see as like a normal response.

(01:01:04):
Yeah.

(01:01:04):
That's just so disheartening though.

(01:01:06):
But I,

(01:01:07):
I think it's really important for people to know that for every public allegation

(01:01:12):
you hear about,

(01:01:13):
there are tens of thousands you have not heard about.

(01:01:16):
And for every woman who tells you a horrifying story, there are

(01:01:19):
many more for sure yeah majority of women you know like who have not told you yeah

(01:01:25):
and like that woman um that nurse you know i it was three or four years later she

(01:01:32):
got another she got a message from another nurse um at that facility saying he's

(01:01:37):
still doing it she is you know i mean of course he is why wouldn't he

(01:01:45):
So, OK, so for my I think this is my last question for you.

(01:01:49):
You know, one of the most important things that you do is you just educate women.

(01:01:53):
And this is kind of limited to American women,

(01:01:55):
at least in terms of the law,

(01:01:57):
about their birthing rights and their right to say no.

(01:02:00):
So you have the chance to tell women what they should know going into birth.

(01:02:06):
What do you want them to know?

(01:02:09):
Well, I.

(01:02:11):
There's not a silver bullet.

(01:02:13):
Like, I could say you have an absolute right to say no.

(01:02:19):
But unfortunately, it's a lot more complicated than that.

(01:02:22):
I think you should utilize that right.

(01:02:25):
But you also have to, like, understand the potential repercussions of doing that.

(01:02:30):
I...

(01:02:35):
I wish,

(01:02:36):
like,

(01:02:38):
if I could genuinely,

(01:02:40):
like,

(01:02:41):
honestly say what I wish women would do,

(01:02:45):
I wish they would boycott the system.

(01:02:50):
I wish that they would and were able to and had access to midwifery care or an

(01:03:01):
alternative to what is really a

(01:03:06):
a profit driven paternalistic obstetrics,

(01:03:13):
you know,

(01:03:13):
system in the U S it's such a tricky thing to navigate.

(01:03:19):
It's like,

(01:03:22):
you know,

(01:03:22):
know your rights,

(01:03:24):
get educated on your rights,

(01:03:26):
hire a doula,

(01:03:27):
make an advocacy plan with your doula,

(01:03:30):
have a,

(01:03:31):
have a,

(01:03:32):
an additional support person or two who,

(01:03:34):
who are also trained on your rights,

(01:03:37):
you know,

(01:03:38):
who go in with,

(01:03:40):
um,

(01:03:40):
with information and with their,

(01:03:42):
you know,

(01:03:42):
the handouts that show like,

(01:03:44):
actually,

(01:03:44):
these are the guidelines and this is what the law says and,

(01:03:47):
you know,

(01:03:47):
all this stuff.

(01:03:48):
And it's so much,

(01:03:50):
you know,

(01:03:50):
it's so much for so little guarantee of anything,

(01:03:53):
you know,

(01:03:54):
there,

(01:03:54):
there is no guarantee.

(01:03:55):
Um,

(01:03:58):
I truly believe that it's a system that it only responds to financial incentives.

(01:04:07):
And leaving that system en masse is like my dream for American women.

(01:04:20):
And I know that that's also not very realistic because the alternatives are so restricted.

(01:04:28):
So I'm sorry you don't have like a nice, neat answer for you.

(01:04:31):
I think it's good that the answer is not nice and neat because the other bit of

(01:04:38):
this is that the fact that we ever have to talk about self-advocacy and

(01:04:45):
self-defense and all of that in a system that is ostensibly supposed to keep us

(01:04:49):
healthy is

(01:04:50):
speaks to what is broken in the system.

(01:04:52):
Because if the system were decent,

(01:04:55):
you would not have to have any particular skills to enter the system and survive.

(01:05:01):
Yeah.

(01:05:03):
So,

(01:05:03):
I mean,

(01:05:03):
I think,

(01:05:04):
you know,

(01:05:05):
I will say just because I have to,

(01:05:08):
Kristen has a ton of amazing materials that are really helpful and that are a lot

(01:05:13):
more than just like

(01:05:15):
Oh, well, because there are things that you can do.

(01:05:18):
But,

(01:05:19):
you know,

(01:05:19):
the fact remains that it's not the victim's fault and you can do everything right

(01:05:23):
and know everything and choose the right care provider and all that stuff.

(01:05:27):
And you can still end up being assaulted or traumatized or mistreated when you are

(01:05:33):
giving birth because we live in a patriarchy and that's what patriarchy does to

(01:05:37):
women.

(01:05:37):
Yeah.

(01:05:39):
Yeah.

(01:05:41):
Yeah.

(01:05:42):
Yeah,

(01:05:42):
all the things I have to tell people about how to navigate it,

(01:05:45):
it's like,

(01:05:46):
imagine like a war zone,

(01:05:51):
you know?

(01:05:52):
And I'm like, there's this one foxhole, you guys.

(01:05:57):
If you can get this equipment and you can get this,

(01:05:59):
you know,

(01:06:00):
if you can get this protective equipment and you can get this one weapon and you

(01:06:03):
can make it to that one foxhole,

(01:06:05):
you might be okay.

(01:06:08):
That is what it's like, isn't it?

(01:06:11):
Yeah.

(01:06:11):
And I hate that.

(01:06:12):
I mean, I hate that.

(01:06:13):
I hate that,

(01:06:14):
you know,

(01:06:14):
I don't have like a super positive,

(01:06:17):
like,

(01:06:18):
you know,

(01:06:19):
do the things on this list.

(01:06:21):
Well,

(01:06:21):
and let me say this,

(01:06:22):
if you're like a medical provider listening to this and you're feeling defensive,

(01:06:27):
you know,

(01:06:27):
we talked earlier about how that defensiveness you should sit with and that's a

(01:06:32):
problem,

(01:06:32):
but I would also point out like,

(01:06:34):
okay,

(01:06:35):
so if you are one of the good guys,

(01:06:38):
then you have to believe that statistically you are an anomaly and that your

(01:06:42):
patients have mostly encountered the bad guys.

(01:06:46):
So rather than getting defensive of yourself,

(01:06:49):
think about all that your patients have been through and all that you have not

(01:06:53):
seen,

(01:06:53):
but maybe you should have seen.

(01:06:54):
Yeah.

(01:06:56):
Yeah.

(01:06:58):
And I'll add to that.

(01:07:02):
There's a lot going on in the nurse world as far as...

(01:07:07):
really leaning into and fully owning the advocate role.

(01:07:13):
It is still,

(01:07:16):
you know,

(01:07:17):
a fringe-ish movement,

(01:07:18):
but it's very,

(01:07:20):
it's very real and it's,

(01:07:21):
it's very much happening.

(01:07:23):
I don't see that in the physician world.

(01:07:25):
I am not aware, you know, of this, like a, a similar push to the,

(01:07:35):
aggregate the good guys and educate each other and educate your peers and go to

(01:07:43):
conferences and speak about these things.

(01:07:46):
Um,

(01:07:47):
and you know,

(01:07:48):
show up and write papers talking about obstetric violence and how we need to,

(01:07:54):
you know,

(01:07:55):
stop committing obstetric violence and what we can do instead.

(01:07:58):
Um,

(01:08:01):
I mean, you're allowed to do that.

(01:08:03):
You're allowed to speak up.

(01:08:05):
You're allowed to organize.

(01:08:10):
You're allowed to do all of that.

(01:08:12):
Go for it.

(01:08:14):
Yeah.

(01:08:14):
Be someone who slows the abuse and who speaks out.

(01:08:19):
Because what matters most in our lives is what we do with power.

(01:08:23):
And so when you are the person who has the most power in a system,

(01:08:26):
you have the highest obligation to protect your fellow human.

(01:08:31):
Yeah.

(01:08:32):
And OK, you just made me think of something.

(01:08:36):
I I remember.

(01:08:40):
So one of my one of my colleagues is a black woman from Georgia,

(01:08:46):
like one of my close colleagues,

(01:08:48):
favorite people who I talk to a lot.

(01:08:52):
And I remember one time saying to her, like, I just feel so helpless.

(01:08:57):
Like,

(01:08:58):
you know,

(01:08:59):
there's just so much work to be done and it just feels so daunting and,

(01:09:04):
you know,

(01:09:04):
et cetera.

(01:09:05):
And I expected her to like commiserate with me.

(01:09:09):
And what she actually said to me was, if you feel helpless, think how we feel.

(01:09:20):
And I'm paraphrasing.

(01:09:23):
as a white woman you have exponentially more power than i have as a black woman and

(01:09:30):
yet i am organizing with my peers teaching people about advocacy educating birth

(01:09:39):
workers um

(01:09:42):
leading a movement, if I can do this, what more could you be doing?

(01:09:48):
I don't want to hear that you feel helpless.

(01:09:51):
So again, we're back to like perspective.

(01:09:55):
Yeah, I am in a position like, you know, in the position I'm in.

(01:10:00):
Yeah, it does feel daunting.

(01:10:01):
And it does feel all of these things.

(01:10:04):
But also,

(01:10:07):
I actually have my position of power is not such that I am at the bottom of the barrel.

(01:10:18):
And we've seen over and over again that Black women keep making things happen despite their...

(01:10:29):
despite the way that they are viewed and the way that they are treated and the way

(01:10:33):
that they are marginalized.

(01:10:35):
So I think a lot of it is like, it kind of lives in our heads as far as, um, our helplessness.

(01:10:44):
And I,

(01:10:45):
I hope that like,

(01:10:47):
I hope that providers can hear that and,

(01:10:49):
and find some hope in it actually.

(01:10:52):
Like I'm telling you from my position, you have a shit ton more power than I do.

(01:10:57):
And

(01:10:59):
look at what I've done.

(01:11:03):
I love that.

(01:11:04):
And I think that's a great note to leave this on.

(01:11:06):
Kristen,

(01:11:07):
thank you so much,

(01:11:08):
not only for being here,

(01:11:09):
but also for just being you and for the incredible work you do and have done.

(01:11:14):
We are all better because you are in the world.

(01:11:17):
I will put all of Kristen's information in the show notes.

(01:11:20):
Kristen, any parting words?

(01:11:22):
Thank you.

(01:11:23):
No, I was just going to say kind of like right back at you.

(01:11:27):
And it always like tickles me whenever I'm just like out in the world and I see

(01:11:34):
something of yours pop up on my social media or something.

(01:11:40):
Not from you, but you know that some random stranger in the world is like

(01:11:46):
you know, putting some Zahn stuff out.

(01:11:48):
It just like cracks me up.

(01:11:49):
I'm like, oh, look at that.

(01:11:51):
Oh my God.

(01:11:51):
So I'll see it.

(01:11:52):
I see it all the time for you too,

(01:11:54):
where someone will be like,

(01:11:55):
oh,

(01:11:55):
I just discovered this like woman birth activist and she's not a lawyer,

(01:11:59):
but she seems like a lawyer.

(01:12:01):
And she's like really intense, but also really charming.

(01:12:04):
And I'm like, I know it's Kristen.

(01:12:05):
I know it's Kristen.

(01:12:07):
And then they'll like get to the end and they'll be like, her name is Kristen.

(01:12:09):
Like, like Pasca Ketty.

(01:12:12):
I'm like, yeah, it's Kristen.

(01:12:14):
Yeah.

(01:12:17):
All right, so that's it for this one.