So many of our expectations, here's what I found,

we don't even realize we have them

until they went unmet and until we're

disappointed.

And so I think if we can reverse engineer that,

say, I don't want to be disappointed in my spouse

and I don't want to disappoint my spouse.

And so we have this vacation coming up

or this event coming up or this new season of

life

with a child or a job change or a move or

whatever it is,

that as much as you can stop at the beginning of

that

and have an honest conversation with yourself

first and foremost to say,

what are my expectations out of this?

I just do believe there is a reward

that is on the other side of that

that is so unexplorable and hard to explain and

understand.

And I think that sometimes if people could just

see that

and know that and have that in mind,

then those differences and those compromises

and all the other things that we've talked about,

can be so worth it when you have this

relationship

that truly is mystical and magical and

supernatural.

- This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best

future.

Well, welcome everybody to so good to be with you

today.

And man, before we get started with our

conversation,

I want to encourage you to rate and review Made

to Advance.

That helps us get the word out

to more and more people about the pod.

And it helps us bring on more incredible guests

like the one we have today.

I'm so excited because today I have with me

Chelsea Smith,

who is the author of the new book, "I Do Today,"

a 52 week guide to the marriage you've been

waiting for.

Chelsea also leads church home with her husband

Judah.

And I am excited for this conversation,

both because Chelsea and Judah

have a long fruitful marriage that we can learn

from.

And also because Chelsea's new book is so

accessible

and helpful for any married couple.

I read it, I loved it.

I can't wait for you to learn more about it today

and hopefully buy it.

Chelsea, welcome to the show.

- I am so excited to be here, Pastor Brian.

And I love the work they do.

When I heard about the show,

I went on and Instagram stalked you

and websites stalked you.

And I'll be honest,

I saw that you have a job for a discipleship

pastor available

and your church looks so amazing.

I was like, gosh, maybe I could apply for that

job.

That looks really amazing.

So it just seems like you're doing such a great

work

with an incredible staff and team.

And I am so excited to have this conversation

with you.

So thank you for having me on.

- Hey, we'll keep that job opening for you, okay?

I know you've got, I recall that maybe you've got

your master's from Fuller, is that right?

Is that what I'm remembering?

- Yeah, truthfully I'm one class away,

so I'm almost there,

but it's been such a wonderful journey.

So yeah, I feel like I'm equipped.

- What's your degree in?

Or going to be in?

- Theology, just a master's of arts in theology.

I didn't do the MDiv because my one Greek class,

I was like, yeah, I'm good.

I got the basics.

So just teach me how to use the software.

- Yeah, I honestly think that's a great approach.

And anybody who's a total purist

when it comes to pastoral level education will be

like,

no, the MDiv, the MDiv.

But a master's of theology,

I think is such a great program for maybe even

most people.

And partially, like you said, because software,

it's so good, if you can learn some of the basics

around Greek and Hebrew,

software is just super, super helpful.

There's no getting around it.

So good for you though, that's awesome.

- It's been really fun.

I've loved it.

And you were from, where did you graduate?

- I graduated from Trinity Evangelical Divinity

School

in Chicagoland, which the difference between my

school

and yours is that yours still exists.

So mine just, yeah, Trinity was like

one of the big time seminaries of the United

States.

And then there's been a lot of, of course,

contraction in higher education,

and particularly in Christian ed.

And so, I mean, in fairness, my seminary,

they kind of merged with a Canadian school,

and I don't know exactly how all that works,

but it's a bummer.

One of our pastors graduated from my Trinity

in the very last class that was on campus.

So it was a weird thing 'cause I'm there,

and you're having this exciting graduation,

but it's also like a funeral at the same time.

So anyway, but I'm grateful for a good education.

- That's amazing.

Those Canadians, let me tell you,

I'm a Mariners fan to my core,

and the Blue Jays just beat out the Mariners in

game seven

on their way to the World Series.

So I'm a little, I don't understand, you know,

letting Canadians into baseball,

but I'm sure I just amended half of your audience

with that statement.

- You're beefing with the Canadians.

I mean, that's a bold move.

So, well, I'm excited to talk about marriage.

It's such a subject that is just, you know,

whether even somebody who's in singleness right

now,

it's such a great conversation of what does it

mean

to build towards a healthy marriage.

And I was thinking about,

and we're gonna get into some different topics

that you really explicitly cover in your book,

but similar to you,

Christina and I have been in ministry leadership

for a long, long time,

and have had lots of conversations with couples

on all different kinds of subjects.

I'd be curious from your long background

in pastoral ministry,

what would you say is the single greatest kind of

topic

that couples might bring to you for,

here's a challenge we're facing

or a question we're asking?

And if you can't narrow it down to the top one,

maybe the, you know, top couple or whatever,

do any themes come to mind?

- It's, yeah, such a great question.

And it is amazing what ministry perspective does

give us.

Like we're there with couples when they get

married

or when they unfortunately sign divorce papers

or sitting with couples when one tells their,

it's just all of the scope and journey

that we get to do with life.

I would say that people come out of money or

cheating

or just a low level dissatisfaction with their

marriage.

And, but if I had to boil it down to two things,

Brian,

I would say it comes down to either

a lack of contentment in your own life,

either who you are, what you have,

where you're at in life

that you are projecting into your marriage

or living a life of unforgiveness

and resentment and bitterness.

And not even necessarily towards your spouse,

but holding onto that towards others,

it is going to bleed into your marriage.

And so if I was to boil all of the peripheral

down to,

such a great question, by the way,

I haven't been asked that one yet,

down to the two heart issues,

I would say lack of contentment and bitterness

and unforgiveness creeping into our hearts,

that fixing those really would fix 80%

of the marriage pain that we tend to see.

I don't know, what do you think?

- I, it's funny because I haven't thought about

that for me.

So I'd have to ponder it a little bit longer

before I would be ready to answer it.

But I'll see if I can come up with a good answer.

Here's a question from when you're talking with

couples,

then I love what you're saying.

What you're saying is, hey,

they might come to me with a symptom of an issue

up here.

But my guess is then if you're,

what you're suggesting is, hey,

whether it be contentment or forgiveness issues,

you've got to do some digging to get to what's at

the root.

How, I mean, talk to me about how,

like if you're sitting down with a couple

and maybe somebody who's listening right now

might be doing a little bit of like self-analysis,

how do you get to discerning what the root is?

I mean, how are you figuring that out?

Somebody comes to you and they say, oh my gosh,

we're dealing with money issues

or we're dealing with intimacy problems or

whatever.

How do you get to the place

where you're having a conversation

that's a different conversation

than the one they came to you

or they thought they came to you for?

- Right, that's such a great point.

And I think, the reason I wrote this book

the way I did, by the way,

is to try to get down to the root of the problem

in that way.

Truthfully, the book is 52 weeks

and each week is a pretty,

thank you for saying it's accessible,

it's a pretty accessible topic of money or in-laws

or there's a few that are hard hitters as they

are.

But the reason I wanted to take 52 weeks,

to be honest, the publisher said,

hey, we'll give you more money

if you'll just write a trade book,

just write a book on marriage

that anybody can sit down and read in a month.

But I was like, no, my goal for this

isn't to just deal with the topics

and give somebody a thought and move on.

It really is to dig into those heart issues

and for couples to do it together

through meaningful conversations they have.

And so I would say that the best way

in sitting down with people and couples

is by asking questions.

I mean, you're obviously so good on your podcast,

but the question, so why do you think you bought

that?

They come in for money and they've gone into debt

and one isn't uncomfortable with their spending.

Well, why do you think you bought that new car

that you didn't need and your wife thought

that you couldn't afford?

Well, why did, and you start to begin

to ask some questions and uncover that,

man, there's a lack of contentment

and I'm feeling like I'm not enough,

so I have to compensate for it with this car

or with this, whatever the thing is.

And so I think the power of questions

is so wonderful and beautiful

and getting people to talk and uncover that

themselves.

Because I don't know about you,

but for me, it's not helpful to sit around

and somebody says, "Well, you know, Chelsea,

I think the issue that you're really bringing

here

is unforgiveness."

Like, no, I wanna come up with that on my own

and maybe I'm a little stubborn

or a little prideful in that,

and maybe that should be a third issue.

But there is a power in questions

and helping us to see that for ourselves

and with our spouse and with the power of the

Holy Spirit

to help us to uncover those things.

And I think that is why questions

are just one of the most powerful things

that we can participate in on this planet

to uncover those really the heart root issues

that can really bring about deep, real change

instead of just, "Oh, okay, now we have a budget

figured out.

We're gonna be good."

No, 'cause if that heart issue of discontentment

is still there and still gnawing

and still a driving force and factor

in how you're handling money,

your budget's not gonna solve that problem.

- Yeah, that is so, so good.

And that's where one of the many ways

that our spouses can be such a gift to us

is if they know how to just ask good questions.

I think you're totally right.

Regardless of what's behind it, the moment,

if you're the spouse that sees

your significant other has an issue

and you are trying to just straight up name it

with them,

it can oftentimes feel like an accusation or

attack,

and it puts me on the defensive.

You're telling me, "Here's your issue."

Now, is there a place for that at times?

Sure, there's probably a place at times to say,

just name something.

But if you can do it like you're saying

by asking those questions, intelligent questions

that are a little bit leading,

but help them process at a deeper level,

that's such a gift to your spouse.

And for each of us individually

to ask those same questions, to try to say,

"What is really going on here?

"Why did I do that?"

Let me ask you, here, you jump on, jump in.

- Oh, can I jump on what you said?

'Cause what you said is so brilliant, asking

questions.

I wanna take that a step further.

And it's not just asking questions,

it's asking them when you are not already

in an emotionally charged situation.

I feel like, I mean, maybe there's spouses out

there

that are better than me,

but typically I'm not gonna ask you to those deep

questions

unless I'm already annoyed, I'm already bothered,

I'm already, there's already something going on

that is leading me to those questions.

And that's already gonna put me on the offensive

and him on the defensive,

and it's not necessarily going to get to where it

could go.

If those questions could be asked

when we actually, there's nothing emotionally

charged about

and we're sitting there on a Tuesday evening,

happy with each other, drinking our coffee,

and those questions get to come up

without that emotionally charged thing

that would normally lead to those questions being

asked.

I don't know, you guys are probably better than

me.

I feel like you can have those conversations on

your own.

- Hands down, it's like,

hey, let's try to figure out a good place.

And it's not even just when we're in conflict.

If we're busy, if there are external

circumstances

that are going to make it harder

to have a productive conversation of any kind,

then we just, we try to figure out what's a

better time.

Do you, like, so for me, I mean, if I knew I've

got,

I got a thing, I need to press in on something.

I'm mentally thinking either A, when is the time

naturally,

or B, sometimes I'll say to Christina,

hey, I've got something I feel like

I need to process a little bit.

And we'll sort of, we don't have to be as

intentional

about this as we used to, but, you know,

almost say like, when would be a good time.

Back to the questions things,

when would be a good time for you?

Have you ever done that where you almost like,

I don't wanna say set an appointment,

but you kind of dedicate some time of like,

we're gonna go there at that time?

- Yes, and unfortunately,

we absolutely learned that the hard way.

In fact, I tell a story about last summer,

Jude and I are driving to church, he's about to

preach.

I know this is the worst time to bring up

something.

He's got so much on his mind.

But I was so like, that, you know,

something came up and it just came out.

And even though I knew better, it came out.

And you're right.

So unfortunately, we've learned that the hard way

is the wrong time.

And how timing can make all the difference.

I use the analogy of green bananas.

- Yeah, it's a great analogy, yeah.

- Have you ever like just been so hungry for a

banana

that you like peel it open anyway and think,

ah, it's probably gonna be okay.

And have you ever done, and your teeth squeak?

- Oh yeah, it's disgusting.

- The banana just, it's disgusting.

And it's wild because it's the exact same thing

as a perfectly right banana, but the difference

is timing.

And if we can learn that timing difference

and learn the hard way from me, it's not worth it.

You're not gonna go where you wanna go

if you're in a charged situation with bad timing

already.

And whether that relates to conversations in

marriage

or conversations with your roommates

or conversations with your boss,

I think that can apply in many different

relationships

that we have.

But I love what you said about setting a time to

do it.

Because what that does for me is relieve the

pressure.

So hey, if on that drive to church with Judah,

I could have said, hey, there's been some things

that I just,

when we're calm, can we sit down and talk about

them

maybe sometime this week?

And he says, yes.

That is a little bit of a pressure release for me

that I know, okay, we're gonna get to it,

just not right now.

And then he knows it's on his radar.

And the conversation can go so much better, so

much further,

and actually get us where we both wanna go,

which is in unity, in intimacy, having fun,

loving each other.

We both wanna get there.

But that timing can sure make a difference

in how long it takes to get there.

- Yeah, and I love what you said, Chelsea.

It's so good for anybody listening.

We're gonna be talking about marriage, especially

today,

but so many relational principles cross apply

to so many other relationships.

So as you're listening, everyone,

just keep in mind, yes, kind of the main focus

is the marriage relationship,

but a lot of this will apply to other areas of

your life.

Now, I will say the next question I wanna ask

absolutely primarily and only applies to marriage.

So the book is so great because I love,

at the end of every chapter,

as you already explained, they're broken up by

weeks.

There's always something to discuss,

and basically, I'm gonna mess the heading up,

but something to take action on or something to

do.

And so it's so good because you can have

a really great conversation with your spouse

about the content, and by the way,

for those who aren't readers out there,

as Chelsea already said, it's not such long

content.

Oh, if you're not a reader, it's very accessible

and great length for leading

into a really productive conversation,

and then some action steps.

But I'll tell you, maybe I should have been

surprised

when I opened up, and the first,

I'm guessing somebody else has asked this

question,

and the very first chapter is on sex,

and I was like, wow, hello.

That's how we're starting this thing.

I've read a fair number of marriage books.

I don't think anybody ever starts there,

and I have to ask why there.

- Because absolutely, my target demographic was

husbands,

because I understand how,

I believe that husbands want good marriage

just as much as wives do,

but sometimes getting into a work or a project or

a book

can feel a little more intimidating,

and I realize this is gender stereotyped,

and it's not all this way,

and I had this conversation with my publisher

so many times.

Hey, no, if we start with sex,

we're gonna get husbands involved

and get them to like, oh, okay,

I can get on board with this for you,

so that is point one.

Thank you, you are my target demographic.

Thank you for taking notice.

But I also really do believe,

and this is a layer down further,

that sex is God's gift to marriage,

and sometimes as Christians,

sometimes as people who are followers of Jesus,

I don't think we celebrate this enough

that sex really can just be this incredible,

and the title of the chapter of that one

is "A Little White Pill,"

and I use the analogy of I love natural medicine,

that those people who are so smart,

they take essential oils,

and they do things to really holistically heal

and get better and get natural at health.

I love that, but sometimes when my head hurts,

I just wanna take an Advil,

and I want the headache to go away immediately.

And I do think sex can be that for our marriage,

for our relationships.

It can be that little white pill.

It is God's gift,

and the oxytocin that is released,

the intimacy that can be restored,

all of those things really are a gift to marriage,

and I do feel like sometimes in marriage,

we get into this game of chicken,

and we've seen this with couples.

I'm sure you've seen it as well,

that there's like this old-fashioned Western

standoff

between a husband and wife.

Like, well, I will get intimate with you sexually

when you're intimate with me emotionally,

and that while I'll get intimate with you,

and they're both in this standoff

where sometimes if you just dive in and have sex

and make that connection and that commitment

that is God's gift to your marriage,

it really can let all the other chapters

and all the other topics that we're working on

go through easier.

So thank you for noticing that.

You actually are the first person

who has asked it in that way,

so I'm glad that it caught you off guard.

- Well, it's funny because one does not want,

as you said, to gender stereotype,

but I thought I would not be as shocked

if it was a dude writing this book who said,

"You know what?

"What do we need to talk about?

"I know, let's start with sex."

But when it's a female writer, again,

I'm stereotyping, sorry, but I'm thinking

that feels less like the common,

but now what we have here is a very smart female

writer

who's trying to get the guys to engage in the

book,

so I love that.

Which, tell me the backstory behind the book,

and I feel like I heard something

about some social media posts that you were doing

that really was the genesis of the book.

Tell me the backstory.

- Yeah, I love it.

Years ago, one of our closest family friends

ended up,

we did their wedding, it was a beautiful wedding.

They stood there and said "I do" to each other

and envisioned this life together,

and then three years later, we were sitting down

with them signing divorce papers.

And what was wild for me was that the reason

for this divorce, that there was no infidelity,

there was no debt, there was no financial misconduct,

it was just a lot of little, everyday things

that led to a place where they thought

we don't think we can make this marriage

work for us anymore.

And that grieved me to such an extent,

because for me, marriage has been the hardest,

most fulfilling thing I have done in my life.

Like when all is said and done,

when Jude and I hit an anniversary every year,

I'm so proud of that, and it's been so much work,

but the most joy I get from anything in this life,

other than my relationship with Jesus,

but if I'm being honest, they're pretty close up

there,

is my marriage and is my relationship with Judah.

And so when that happened with our friends

and we're signing those divorce papers together,

it just made me so mad, and I thought,

and this is probably super cheesy and a little

charismatic,

but okay, like okay, how am I gonna get back at

the devil

for attacking this marriage of this couple that I

love?

And it was, let's put some good and some good

thoughts

that are everyday tools that people can use for

marriage

to help them this week.

And so that started at just a Marriage Monday

post

that for me, it was gonna last a year,

and I think it's still going on about nine years

later now.

I'm still just writing one thought,

because so often we hear all these big thoughts

and concepts that are wonderful,

but they're a little hard to enact today.

And so these are just thoughts about

what can I do different today and this week

to make my marriage just a little bit better this

week,

and then a little bit better next week

to give couples that incredible joy

that should be our most rewarding relationship,

even though it is still the hardest.

- Man, that's such a cool way to redeem

just a really unspeakable tragedy to really ask,

okay, how do I come alongside couples?

I love that.

I'm curious, having now posted probably too many

to count,

are there any posts that just went bananas

when it came to like the virality of the post

where you're like, oh my gosh, this just went

crazy,

and did they surprise you, or were you like,

yeah, this is one I would have thought

would have gone crazy?

- Yeah, truly the sex posts were the ones

that went the most bananas,

which is why also starting with sex

seemed like a no-brainer for me.

And I do think it's people hearing,

you guys have been married for 20 plus years

and you're still talking about sex?

That isn't the narrative that our society gives,

right?

I feel like our society gives a narrative

of that marriage is the deathbed to sex,

which I don't believe has to be true.

And so those have been the ones that have gotten

the most,

I think, surprise.

- Yeah, that's so interesting.

I did a series not long ago

where I was dealing with a bunch of kind of

either A, somewhat controversial,

or B, just really strong felt need kind of

concepts,

and hands down, the sex message is the one

that got the most, it made me think

I really need to do a whole series here

because man, who knows what would happen.

It's interesting when I think about

kind of that intimacy conversation,

there is all of this perception in the culture of,

oh, it's really exciting to not be tied down

and this whole narrative out there.

And then even once you are married,

this idea of it would seem like

it would get stale or whatever.

And you've probably heard this,

but I love saying it as many times

in as many places as I can,

that all of the research, for those who are

listening,

all of the research done on sexual satisfaction

in relationships says not only that married

couples

are the most sexually satisfied,

but Christian evangelical couples

report the highest amount of sexual satisfaction

of literally any couples in the country.

So I'm just saying, follow Jesus, love Jesus,

love your spouse, and sex gets better

the longer you're intentional about it.

Which, side note, Chelsea's got some great

writing on

in the book.

You wanna comment any more on that, Chelsea,

before I switch?

- I was just gonna say, we're also raising

young adults and teenagers now.

And just for any parents out there,

that has been the sex conversation

that we've had with our kids as far as,

hey, God has a plan for sex and it is a marriage.

And the reason we wanna follow it and stick to it

is it's your best chance for sexual fulfillment

out there.

Like, it's not the fear and gloom and doom out

there.

And it is exactly what you said.

And please say that a million times over.

I'm actually really curious.

I wanna read your research on that.

But it's the best chance of sexual fulfillment.

And that's what we've told our kids.

And that was our big sex talk with them.

- After we get off the pot, I'll find the

citation

and I'll send it your way.

So, bringing up kids is a great transition point.

When it comes to, you and I are both on the side

of,

now, our kids are 18, 20, oh man,

right here on the pot, I'm choking right now.

(laughing)

18, 22, 24, there we go, 18, 22, 24.

And you guys are probably not quite there,

but you're definitely not in the little kid stage

anymore.

And I think that the demands of the season

when you have younger kids, man, it is a push

when you've got all of that need

surrounding you all the time.

I would be curious for those who are on the,

maybe the front end of the parenting

and in some ways marriage journey,

any advice you would have for keeping your

marriage vibrant

in the times where your circumstances are just so

demanding?

- Yeah, that is such a good question.

And truly, Judah and I were married for five

years

before we had kids, almost five.

So our kids are 21, 19, and 16.

So I think we're just about two years behind you.

I wanna ask you so many questions.

Maybe for another time.

And I will say when we had our first son,

that was the hardest season of our marriage

up until that point.

And for me, especially as a mom,

it was learning how to navigate

the physical demands of motherhood,

recovering from pregnancy, nursing a son,

little sleep deprived,

dealing with the emotions and the hormones.

And Judah's going back to work

and kind of living his normal life.

I'm on maternity leave.

And I'm just feeling my life has got turned

upside down.

And here you're expecting a happier wife who is

now a mom.

And just for me to be all the things that I have

been.

And I am struggling in this.

And I realize that's not everybody's story.

I mean, a lot of people you add postpartum to

that

and all of the journey.

It is an extremely difficult season.

And so my first advice would say,

hey, I think you're doing better than you think

you are.

You can let go of some expectations

that this season of new parenting

is going to be like previous seasons were.

But if you can begin to give yourself a hope

that if we get through this season,

put some things in place, get some parameters set,

our marriage is going to be even stronger and

better

because we are in this season of young kids.

And I do think the number one parameter

that is so important for parents to put in place

is to recognize that the most important gift

you can give your kids is your marriage.

- Let's go.

- Way more than, thank you for the clap.

Way more than the soccer lessons you want to give

them

or the piano lessons, or way more than the

devoted time

that you think your kids need from you.

Giving your kids a gift of your marriage

is the best thing you can give them for their

mental health,

their psychological wellbeing.

All of the things that are provided to children

because of a healthy marriage

is the number one thing you can give them.

I was really grateful.

My parents just celebrated their 56th wedding

anniversary.

- Wow.

- And they still go on dates every Friday night,

which is wild 'cause nobody lives at home with

them,

but Friday night's still date night for them.

My dad loves to travel.

And so when my sister and I were growing up,

my parents were raising us,

I saw my parents do date night every Friday night

and go on vacation.

They probably left us twice a year for a week at

a time.

And for me to be on the receiving end of that,

and I missed my parents when they did those

things,

but it didn't harm me.

It didn't scar me.

And I actually can look back and see how grateful

I am

that my parents did that.

When I hear couples who are hesitant to do a date

night,

hesitant to get a babysitter,

hesitant to leave their kids,

I just, I want to lovingly say,

"Oh, prioritize your marriage.

"That is actually the best gift you can give your

kids."

So you clapped on that.

So you feel the same way in ministry and pastoring

and seeing all the things?

- Just 100%.

And I'm so glad that you just said everything you

said.

I'd give a great big amen, double click, whatever

it takes.

I mean, I literally, I mean, literally just came

from a lunch meeting with a couple right before

this.

And we were talking about what's the state of

their life

and marriage and whatnot, and both are working

full-time.

And the husband in particular

has an extremely demanding job.

And I was asking what are their,

and this season now through the,

basically the end of the year

is the most demanding part of the season,

works for a company that does a lot of business

right now.

And I said to them,

"What are your rhythms for recovering as a couple

"and as a family from a season like this?"

And they said, "Well, we used to do, you know,

like,"

he said, "Typically we've done vacations

afterwards

"as a family."

And although this year we don't have one on the

books.

And I said, now you might disagree with me,

although I think you'll agree.

I said, "Listen, I would prioritize having time

"where the two of you go away, ideally for two

nights,

"at least one, but ideally two nights.

"And I would literally put that ahead of a family

vacation

"because the kids are going to be fine,

"vacation or no vacation.

"Yes, is it nice memories?

"Yes, all that, fine.

"But the best thing you can give them

"is a healthy, vibrant marriage in the home.

"And that's not going to come

"unless the two of you get away."

So that was my two cents.

What do you say?

Am I right or wrong on that?

If you had to choose one or the other,

what are you going to do?

- 1000% investing into the marriage.

And here's the thing,

we have spent so much time and money

taking our kids on vacations

that they actually don't even remember,

especially when they're that age.

And I found, I don't know if you feel this way,

I found it was easiest to leave the kids

when they were younger.

For us, the middle school years

were probably the years that we scaled back a

little bit

to make sure that we were there for our kids

because so much in identity formation

is happening over those years.

But the kids don't even remember at that age,

they're going to be fine.

And making that financial priority and time

priority,

I couldn't agree more.

- Yeah, I just, you know, we don't want to say,

and I know sometimes people will say,

"Well, you make it sound like date nights

"and a couple of getaways."

Which, by the way, we shoot for the same,

at least I just told this couple, actually.

We shoot, we said we used to do one getaway a

year

and we shoot for now too for just Christina and

me.

But, you know, sometimes couples want to say,

"Well, you almost make it sound like date nights

"and getaways will solve all your marriage

problems."

And I'm like, they won't solve all of them,

but you'll be shocked at what happens

if you can prioritize that time of just

connecting.

You talk in the book about just the whole

importance

of expectations and how often mis-expectations

or differing expectations can be a source

of conflict and I just think that's so true.

Husbands come in with a certain picture

of if this is what it's gonna be like

and wives have their picture and then they do

this

or they go that way and it's a challenge.

What advice do you have for a couple

that's trying to get on the same page

when it comes to their expectations

for each other and for their marriage?

- Oh, I, thank you for bringing this up.

I do think it is one of the most important topics

because on the backside of mis-expectations

is disappointment and for me,

there is almost nothing worse than feeling like

I disappointed Judah and when he feels

like he disappointed me, it is just,

it's a tough pill to swallow.

And so many of our expectations, here's what I

found,

we don't even realize we have them

until they went unmet and until we're

disappointed.

And so I think if we can reverse engineer that

and say, I don't wanna be disappointed in my

spouse

and I don't wanna disappoint my spouse

and so we have this vacation coming up

or this event coming up or this new season of

life

with a child or a job change or a move or

whatever it is,

that as much as you can stop at the beginning of

that

and have an honest conversation with yourself

first and foremost to say,

what are my expectations out of this?

What am I expecting out of this move

that we're about to make?

Am I expecting that we are going to be in a new

city

and so we're gonna make some new couple friends

together?

Am I expecting that you're gonna get a new job

and so that's gonna free up our finance?

Am I expecting that you're changing your job

so I'm gonna get more?

Whatever those things are,

so often we don't know what they are.

And so doing the work, take time with ourselves,

with Jesus, with maybe a journal

and some Holy Spirit activity

to identify what our expectations are in that

moment.

But then here's the next key, not just to

identify them,

to then actually go voice them to our spouse

in a non-controlling, non-demanding, non-manipulative

way

to say, hey, I'm not demanding these things of

you

and I'm not trying to control the outcome

and I'm not trying to manipulate you into this

outcome.

But I have realized that what I am hoping for,

what my expectations are out of this is A, B and

C.

And then letting that be a conversation for your

spouse

to say, oh, well, that's interesting

'cause my expectations were this

and then as much as we can align

and adjust our expectations before the thing.

It sets us up for being on the same page

and not being disappointed

and not disappointing our spouses

and having the guts to have that conversation

beforehand.

Have you guys ever done that, noticed a pattern?

- I think you're right.

I mean, I love the idea of what you're saying

of really being intentional about making it

almost like a discipline.

I know we don't necessarily love that word,

but making it a discipline or a practice to say,

let's think and intentionally communicate

expectations.

I think here we are, we're now married for 28

years

and just have loved marriage.

I mean, we're best friends, we love hanging out

and our marriage is, our relationship

is as great as it's ever been.

And that being said, literally,

I don't know if it was last Friday or the

previous Friday,

Christina, because we are, the way we do church

schedules

Friday and Saturday, our day's off here.

And so she had one picture

for how that Friday was gonna go.

I had another picture and all of a sudden,

I don't know, midday or so, we crossed paths in

the kitchen

and I can just tell something's off

and I'm not sure what it is and she's not saying

anything.

And so I said, "Hey, I'm feeling some weird

energy here.

"What's going on?"

And she finally just said, "I guess I thought

"that you weren't gonna be working all day today."

(both laughing)

And I was thinking, well, I feel like I haven't

worked

all day, but, and we did do coffee

and all that this morning.

But at the end of the day, what's the issue?

Missed expectations.

And I thought one thing she didn't,

and we just, and what you're getting at

is exactly the root of it.

We just didn't communicate about it.

And if we would have, then I think we could have

come up

with a very win-win kind of plan between the two

of us.

But even on a pedestrian thing,

like just how's the Friday gonna go,

that was a marriage issue.

We got set back and it would have been so,

we literally, every Friday, we start every Friday

driving

for like a half an hour or an hour, getting

coffee.

We get us going at a certain place and we just

talk.

And how easy it would have been just to say,

hey, what are our expectations for today?

And that would have like cleared the whole thing

up

and we didn't.

So I love that.

I love that.

- If you could have just said, hey,

I've got a couple of work projects to do when I

get back.

I think I'm just gonna tweak a couple of things.

How's that?

Yeah, it would have been so much easier

than the energy in the kitchen.

- Yeah, then we got to do conflict resolution, so.

- Also, 28 years of marriage, good on you.

But for saying, hey, I feel some weird energy

and just talking about it and talking through it,

that is always gonna happen and knowing those.

- Yeah, one of the things that you talk about in

the book

that I really appreciate and you, well, one,

you have a Jerry Maguire reference in there,

which I wish, I mean, it's not maybe for

everybody,

but that is such a legendary movie for its era.

And I wanna make Jerry Maguire references at

times

and I'm so sad when people have not seen the

movie

to know the reference, so.

- It's our age.

It's that late '90s era.

- Yeah, so there's a great scene where the

couples say

that they complete each other in an,

I think it's in an elevator, if I recall.

I think they might be signing to each other

or something like that, but anyway.

And you talk about in the book why this whole

notion

of one person completing another

is actually kind of a mistaken idea.

And I'd love for you to expand on that.

I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly,

but I'd love for you to expand on why that's the

case.

- Yeah, I think that also ties in with

expectations

that if we have, if we are going to marriage

and into this relationship,

that this one person is going to be my everything.

And they're going to completely,

and they're going to meet my,

obviously they're the only person meeting my

sexual needs,

but other than that, meeting my emotional needs

and my spiritual needs, if I'm expecting my

husband

to be the only person who is going to meet those

needs,

because I have this view, this romanticized

notion

of marriage and love, that this person is my

everything,

I am setting myself up to just be disappointed in

Judah,

in my spouse, and they're never going to do that.

No human can ever do that for another human.

I believe that we are God-designed

to not just need our spouse,

but also first and foremost to need God,

to have our own personal relationship with Him.

Even those things we talked about

with contentment and unforgiveness.

And I do believe a lot of those things

can be worked out, some of that is my work

to work out between me and God,

and for God to have those insights into me.

Chels, you're not being content,

you're not feeling like you're enough.

Hey, you need to let go of this.

And some of those things are God's job to do for

me,

and not my spouse's job to do for me.

But the whole other layer of what we need in life

is friends and community.

And there are times when I just,

middle-aged for women is no joke.

I'll just throw it out there.

I'm like, I don't know if your wife feels this

way,

but I'm like, God, I don't understand this design

that you have for us, that I am having,

dealing with empty nest, aging parents,

and menopause all at the same time.

Come on, God, let's deal something with this.

And I can try to make that joke with you.

I can try to make that joke with Judah.

You're not gonna get it on the same level

as me calling up a girlfriend

and just being able to joke and lament,

and she is going to feed me and fill me

in a way that is going to help me come home

and be better with Judah,

instead of trying to get something from him

that he wasn't designed to give me.

And if we can have fulfillment

in our relationship with God,

and in our friendship with other people,

it is just going to enhance and add to our

marriage

and set our expectations up.

And same for Judah with having those guy friends

that he can just really talk to and open up his

heart

and have that soul-bearing relationship, not just

with me.

Because there are certain things

that Judah will try to bring to me sometimes,

Pastor Brian,

that I can't carry, I can't handle.

It feels like too much.

And this has been a tough thing for me

to be able to say to him, "Judah, I love you so

much.

"I care about that, but I can't carry that alone

with you.

"Who else can help you to carry that,

"help us to carry that, so that we're not

carrying it alone?"

And that's been a challenge,

but it has brought so much life

to our marriage and our relationship

to adjust those expectations.

- Yeah, that's so good.

I love too that, I mean, it goes without saying

that our relationship with God has to do with

everything

about how we process marriage

and our kind of getting a hold on the inside.

But I love your emphasis on having friendships

outside of just your spouse,

that you're really able to process those things

with as well.

That's so good.

When I think of personality types

and what often causes friction in relationships,

and it's still to this day, it's funny,

Christine and I are very different,

ways we're very similar,

there are ways we're very different as well.

And still to this day, some of our differences

that really do make us better as a couple

and as a marital unit and then our family as a

whole

can still be an issue at times.

So this whole issue of differences, I guess,

talk to me about how you manage

when your spouse is different than you.

And I don't know, I see young couples

and at first they're like,

"Oh, I just love how extroverted he is."

Or, "Oh, I just love how this."

And then all of a sudden you get married

and whatever the thing was that seemed super cool

is like, "Wow, you are so annoying."

And so, and we know they're not really terrible

or anything,

but how do you manage the differences

in a way that's life-giving?

- Such a good question.

Because I do feel like Judah and I,

at the end of the day,

we're still having the same fights that we had 25

years ago,

which is I want quality time and he went,

and a lot of those things don't actually change

over the course of marriage.

And when I sit back and think about it,

I find a beauty and a benefit to that

in the sense of, okay, you know what?

We haven't changed each other.

Because you're right,

so much of what I fell in love with Judah,

when we're dating and it's the late '90s

and we're in our early '20s,

is he is just this fun, spontaneous human being.

And I can be a little serious sometimes

and I connect with Judah and he just wants to

laugh

and sing songs and dance and have fun.

And I literally fell in love with him because of

that.

I can go back to moments where I was watching him

just be this fun, spontaneous person

and just smile and think,

that is moments where I fell in love with him.

Fast forward 10 years later,

we're into marriage and I am so frustrated.

This is the first time we actually went

to marriage counseling, was over this,

'cause I, he's wanting our life to grow

and be between two cities and all I want

is this routine and this consistent life

that I can count on.

And I'll never forget when Leslie,

the female marriage counselor we were seeing,

sat and looked at me and her beautiful blue eyes,

she just looked at me and said,

you know, Judah is this spontaneous human

that you fell in love with.

Are you wanting him to be something different now?

And that just, in her kind way,

just took me aback to realize,

why would I want to change the very thing

I fell in love with Judah over?

And I realized why, because it makes me

uncomfortable.

And he wants to be spontaneous and I wanna be

routine.

And that means I'm not getting what I want when I

want it.

And that comes to this place of,

I have to compromise at times

and he has to compromise with me.

And I know we don't always love that word in

marriage,

but I think one of the things that can really

help us

when it comes to differences,

my mother-in-law has the saying that she told me

from the very beginning of when Judah and I

started dating.

And she would say, you know what?

Great strengths come with compensating great

weaknesses.

And when I think about Judah,

I can see that he has this incredible strength of

generosity.

He will give you the shirt off of his back,

the clothes off of our refrigerator.

He will give away everything he has.

And I saw this in him.

You said clothes off of your refrigerator.

I think you meant food out of your refrigerator.

Just for the listening audience.

I don't think the Smiths keep their clothes

in or on the refrigerator.

So anyway, but I, sorry to interrupt.

Just thought I'd clarify that.

- Remember back when we had nudie jeans,

did you ever do those?

And they told you to wash them

by putting them in the freezer?

- No. - Do you remember that?

- No, you're in a whole different realm

than me right now, but I'll take your word for it.

- Yeah, the trending.

I never, by the way, I never did give that,

but yes, I did have to say the clothes off of

your back

or the food out of your refrigerator.

Judah is that incredibly generous person.

And I love that about him.

And that is a strength that he has.

But it comes with a weakness that he's not the

best

at sticking to a budget.

And we have gotten in so many discussions over

the years of,

and I'm trying to make him be this great budgeter.

And yet I really want him to be this generous

person

that he is.

And I think if we can recognize, first of all,

what the difference is in our spouse is that,

first of all, I fell in love with this about you.

And I chose you, and I chose you knowing

that this is who you are.

And that's where so much of the I do today comes

in,

is I'm saying I do to everything that you are

today

without having to change you,

just because it's making me uncomfortable

or I'm having to do some things that I don't

wanna do.

And hopefully that goes both ways in a marriage.

But the second thing is recognizing these things

that I'm annoyed at with you,

when I think about the flip side of those,

it actually is what I love about you.

And I get to accept all of you.

I don't get to just pick and choose what I like

about you

and what I wanna change about you.

And Judah's been the same thing for me.

He's been so gracious.

I'm very much an introvert.

I love people.

I love socializing, but I wear out quickly.

And Judah could socialize all night long.

And it has taken us a while to realize, you know

what?

I can leave when I wanna leave.

And Judah's not gonna be disappointed at me for

that.

And we're going to be able to walk in those

differences.

- And you're not gonna feel bad.

I mean, that's where it's partially accepting

who you are in that regard as well,

feeling comfortable with,

I'm not gonna feel like a failure

that I'm letting Judah down,

that I'm letting these people down.

I can be okay with this is how God made me

and it's time to step away.

Christina and I, go ahead, go ahead.

- Oh no, I was gonna say, are you and Christina,

are you opposite on introvert and extrovert?

- We are both different levels of extrovert.

I would say I have probably more capacity than

she does,

but she's still an extrovert.

But we still, I mean, she's very much a have a

plan, dial.

I'll never forget, and this was like the eye-opening

moment

of early marriage where one Saturday morning,

the definition for me, and I've gotten better at

this

the longer I've been a leader and whatnot,

but I love flying by the seat of my pants.

And the longer you've been a leader,

the more you gotta have things a little bit more

planned.

But I remember on a Saturday morning, we wake up,

it's sunny outside, the sun's coming through the

window.

I'm thinking it's Saturday, we just can do

whatever we want.

That's the essence to me of a good Saturday.

There is no, and her first question,

we have not even gotten out of bed yet.

And her first question is, she looks at me and

she goes,

"So what do you think the plan is for the day?"

And just her asking about a plan

produced this visceral, like, oh my gosh,

I just feel like my Saturday got wrecked.

And it's funny, now are we beyond that?

Sure, we are beyond that now.

But when it comes to traveling, for example,

she likes to be super locked down,

get there early to everything,

and I'm like a lot more chill.

And so we still have to navigate the differences.

And I appreciate that we don't miss flights

because Christina makes sure that we're at places

on time,

but she's also managed to maybe just ease up a

little bit

on the schedule thing.

So that's how it works out for us, I don't know.

- So have you gotten to the point

where you just go to the airport at different

times

and say, "I'll see you at the gate."

Have you ever done that yet?

- We're not to the point yet.

Have you guys done that?

- For sure.

- Oh man, that's a hack right there.

- Right, there you go.

Just, I'll take an Uber, I'll get there when I

get there.

And I don't want the stress,

so I'll see you at the gate, there you go.

- Yeah. (laughing)

Well, I'm gonna file that away.

The moment we get done with this conversation,

I'm gonna let Christina know,

I've got a new solution to our travel differences.

That's so good.

You guys have been married,

how many years now have you been married?

- We're 26, 1st of November, so.

- 26, okay, cool.

So at least for us, there are some ways,

and part of life is patterns and routines.

I mean, there are just certain things

that you keep doing day after day, and it is what

it is.

How, after 26 years of marriage,

have you guys kept it fresh?

And maybe those strategies look different

depending on the season.

I don't know, but how have you kept it

where it's like, hey, we're not just doing the

same thing,

where we get up and then we go to work,

and then we come home, and then we have our

dinner,

and then we go watch a show, or this week,

and it's just this kind of like,

play and copy and repeat thing, copy and paste

thing.

Yeah, how do you keep it fresh?

- Oh, gosh, I've gotta be honest.

I still fantasize about living a life of routine

and the same day being like the other.

Our life is so spontaneous that,

and that actually isn't something

that we've really had to ever be intentional

about.

We have had to be intentional with the flip side,

which is, hey, we need to make sure

that we do have these routines and patterns

that are holding us down.

And I realize most people have the very opposite

issue

that we do, but we have walked through enough

couples

to know that that is a fight,

and that is something that just needs to be done.

How have you, since I don't have a great answer

for that question, how have you guys done that?

- Yeah, I think once in a while we'll discern

that we've been just kind of doing the same thing,

whatever it is, and so then we just literally say,

just anything we can do to mix it up.

I mean, if we've been doing the same routine at

night,

we'll say, hey, let's go take a walk,

and/or let's do something that just deviates

from the pattern.

So I don't know if we have a great answer

other than to sense when there is a little bit

of a routine or a rut, and then try to figure out

a way to mix it up, and it doesn't have to be

like you're turning your whole life upside down.

I do think, and readers can check this out in the

book,

I mean, you do talk about the idea of,

with sexual intimacy, keeping that area

or that sphere of life fresh, and so you've got

a whole week, kind of a whole chapter

on what that looks like.

Feel free to say as much or as little about that,

'cause I want people to read the book,

so you're gonna get some great info in the book,

but that is an area, maybe not on the schedule

side

of things, but on the intimacy side of things,

it sounds like you guys have been intentional

on just kind of reinventing.

- Absolutely, and I do feel like that is

something

that, as you mentioned, there is such a benefit

to having the same partner for 25 years.

Like, you know each other, you understand each

other,

you don't have to necessarily communicate

over everything, everything, each time you have

sex.

The downside of that is you can just end up

doing the same thing over and over and over again,

and for us, that definitely has required some

intention,

and just, even if it starts with a conversation

and just love to give just listeners,

just even this one topic, even if you just talk

to your spouse and say, "Hey, what's one thing

"that you've been fantasizing over sexually

"that we could actually do together in the

bedroom?"

And even just the guts to have that question

after you guys have been doing the same thing

for 10, 15, 20 years, to even just have that

question,

and it's wild, I don't know if you feel this way,

how much vulnerability that conversation

actually still takes.

If you know one thing that I've been curious

about

that we haven't talked about or tried

or that we did early on, but that we haven't been

doing

so much lately, even if it's just having the

courage

to have that conversation, I guarantee one

thought

will come out that will get you out of that rut

sexually.

Not even a rut, but just a routine,

and the routine can be beautiful and wonderful,

but it can also then just get a little boring.

I don't think it has to be boring.

- Yeah, I think that's really good.

I think that conversations around sexual intimacy

are for probably just about everybody.

I don't know if it really even matters,

you know, male or female.

That's a vulnerable, vulnerable space,

and so I agree, even if it's just trying to,

just trying to attempt to have an intentional

conversation

about it, that's gonna take you into good places.

I do think, and I can't remember,

and it strikes me, you must have covered this in

the book,

but I don't remember it right away,

is so much of good sexual intimacy for us

stems out of good emotional intimacy,

and so while on the one hand, you know, I agree

with you,

you don't want it to be like, we won't do this

until we'll do that kind of a, you know,

bargaining thing.

I just think that those times,

back to actually listening well,

asking good questions in general,

and you have a whole chapter on just what it

means

to listen well, and for both of us,

and I think when we feel like we're heard

and we're connected at an emotional level,

I do think that really helps on a physical level

and all other levels.

Anything you wanna say about just,

more than just digging in on questions about

conflict,

or you've got an issue I see,

but I don't wanna just accuse you of it,

just that emotional connection.

- Yes, I think having in mind that goal

of knowing if I can be fully known and seen and

loved

to have that, there is this person who knows me,

who knows the good and bad, the ugly about me,

who has seen me, who has seen my insecurities

and my wildest dreams,

and knows how I felt about that event,

and to think that I can have that with somebody,

to be fully known and fully seen and still loved.

Obviously the goal, that's what we have with God,

but when we can get glimpses of that

with one other person on this planet,

and that is our spouse,

it is there is a freedom and a fulfillment to

that

that I think nothing else on this planet

can actually offer.

And the Bible talks about that we are made up of

a spirit

and a soul and a body,

where physical beings, our soul is our emotions

and our mind, and then there's this mysterious

spirit

that makes up who we are,

that the Bible references and talks about.

And I really do believe that there is a level of

intimacy

that is physical, it is emotional, but it's also

spiritual.

Having spiritual conversations with your spouse,

praying together, being intentional with having

intimacy

on all three of those levels,

I just do believe there is a reward

that is on the other side of that,

that is so unexplicable and hard to explain and

understand.

And I think that sometimes if people could just

see that

and know that and have that in mind,

then those differences and those compromises

and all the other things that we've talked about,

can be so worth it when you have this

relationship

that truly is mystical and magical and

supernatural.

- Yeah, I think that's a great place to,

I've got one more question,

but to land the conversation generally,

because that language that you just used,

there have been times where Christine and I have

said,

a good marriage where you're really connected,

it literally, it just feels like it's just so

supernatural

and mystical and spiritual.

And the only thing that can compare

is our relationship with God.

And it's still two different things,

but when you're in sync, that's what it's like.

And it is an absolutely beautiful thing.

I think that's a great word.

Anything else, Chelsea,

that you'd like to share before we end today?

- Oh, great question.

I would just love to give hope.

I think probably there's people listening to you

and I talk

and are decades long of marriage

and doing date nights and vacations together.

And people probably, some listening,

feel very far away from that,

feel like that feels unattainable for me.

I don't feel like I can ever get there.

It's too difficult. Too much has been happening.

And I just wanna give people a little hope

and encouragement to say,

I bet you're closer to that

than you actually think you are.

That you're still with somebody who you chose

to stand up there in front of some level of

family

and friends and witnesses and say,

I am choosing this person.

And you chose them and they chose you.

And as long as you're still in it,

willing to fight, one of you, there is hope.

And there's hope, not just for a marriage

that you can live through and endure

and get through for the sake of your kids,

but there is hope for a marriage that is full of

joy

and that has that mystical supernatural

that we were even talking about.

That it's not an exclusive venture

just for super great people.

That it actually is attainable and closer,

I think, than people would realize.

- Yeah, that's a great word.

And I wanna emphasize something

kinda you said earlier on this point,

because you're totally right.

Pastorally, if someone's listening right now

and they are facing an issue in their marriage

that they just keep trying to get after,

they're trying to have the conversation

since it's not working,

just I wanna encourage those listening.

If there are times and places,

and you already referenced this,

to take a step to talk to someone

who's a marriage counselor and some kind of

dynamic

like that, bringing in somebody else

to help you navigate an issue.

I always say, if you keep tripping over the same

bump

in the carpet, you need to maybe get

some outside help in that.

And you and Judah have done that,

and Christina and I have had people speak

into our marriage.

And so sometimes you need that third person

that's gonna help you get to the place

that you want to go.

So hey, if people want to kind of follow,

obviously the book's available everywhere.

If people want to follow you and your work,

how would they best do that?

- Just Chelsea Smith on Instagram,

churchhome, we do, one of the greatest things

that we do that's not just for people

in our community is daily guided prayers.

And if couples are looking for a place to start,

so you can start there for free on our app on our

website.

It's five to seven minutes that you can actually

spend

praying together or by yourself, wherever you

start.

So I just say, start there.

It's a really great place to connect.

Can I say one other thing when you just mentioned?

- For sure, yeah.

- Because there is often with counseling,

a lack of attainability with that of either

financially

or just, I don't know where to go to start

to find a counselor.

That is where I think, you're a pastor, you lead

a church.

I think the church is such an incredible resource

that even if you don't know where to start

with a marriage counselor,

start with an older couple in your church,

ask to take them to coffee, and you would be

surprised

at how much just an older wise couple can even

help you.

All it has to cost is a cup of coffee

or even one that you make at home.

But there are resources out there

that aren't just professional marriage counselor.

Small groups, marriage groups in church--

- That's a great point.

- Absolutely phenomenal.

So there are lots of options and places for

people

to go to and start and get that perspective.

- I am so, so, so glad you said that

because you're right, counseling can be this big,

sort of seems formidable to take that step.

And I remember reading years back,

a very, very, very famous Christian therapist

who'd written a zillion books and all that.

And he made the statement that if people had

just conversations authentically

with some other people in their church

about what they're dealing with,

he's like, honestly, he said,

I think it was something like 90% of his practice,

he said, would disappear overnight

if they just had the kind of relationships

where they sat down with somebody

who's been married a little longer

and could talk about what they're going through.

So I think that's a great word.

And I'm so excited for your book, Chelsea.

I just feel like it's gonna help marriage upon

marriage

and not just those who are on the front end,

but those who have been married for a long time,

having good, productive conversations with their

spouse,

and then also being able to take

some really good next steps

and see growth in their marriage.

So thank you for writing the book

and thank you for joining us today on Made to

Advance.

- Thank you for having me.

I'm so grateful to be here.

Hey, look for my resume

for that discipleship pastor position and...

(both laughing)

- We'll add a third state to you and Judah's life.

- I love it.

- All right, thanks. - Thank you so much.

- Yeah, take care.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation

with Chelsea Smith,

and I am so grateful for the book

that she has available for all of us now

and how we can grow in our marriage.

And I love that she and Judah have been married

this long

and are still just enjoying all of the benefits

of a healthy, flourishing marriage.

And that can be for you too.

So I wanna encourage you,

make sure you identify at least one next step you

can take.

Sometimes we get overwhelmed

with we hear all of these different things

that we could be doing, that we shouldn't be

doing.

And I wanna just encourage you to identify one

next step.

Maybe just take a moment to pray and say,

"Holy Spirit, is there anything you would call me

to do

"to build into my marriage?"

And then take action on that one thing.

That's how great marriages are built.

Not with these necessarily big revolutionary

plans,

but day by day, taking action steps

to build healthier relationships.

So if you have been encouraged by this

conversation,

please do rate and review our show.

That's such an encouragement to our team.

This has been a production of Engedi Church,

and we've got more incredible conversations on

the way.

And so until next time,

just know God made you to advance.