1 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:03,150 Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast. 2 00:00:03,850 --> 00:00:06,198 Andy: Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94. 3 00:00:06,228 --> 00:00:09,378 My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Private Eye studio with 4 00:00:09,438 --> 00:00:11,148 Helen Lewis, Ian Hislop and Adam McQueen. 5 00:00:11,658 --> 00:00:14,928 We are here to discuss everything that's happened, uh, since the last issue 6 00:00:14,928 --> 00:00:16,518 of the magazine came out a week ago. 7 00:00:16,728 --> 00:00:20,298 And let's start with, uh, a phone call that's happening right now, 8 00:00:20,527 --> 00:00:25,312 which is gonna be K Starer speaking to Donald Trump, begging him not 9 00:00:25,312 --> 00:00:30,892 to sue the BBC for $5 billion or whatever figure he's reached now. 10 00:00:31,042 --> 00:00:32,392 Helen, can you explain? 11 00:00:32,731 --> 00:00:33,467 Helen: I think. 12 00:00:33,872 --> 00:00:36,152 And I wrote in this Speaks magazine that I think this is the one that the 13 00:00:36,152 --> 00:00:39,722 BBC are happiest talking about, because essentially they'd rather like to have an 14 00:00:39,722 --> 00:00:43,142 argument with Donald Trump if anyone else given his broad unpopularity in Britain. 15 00:00:43,502 --> 00:00:46,172 Although actually polling did suggest that most people think that they were 16 00:00:46,172 --> 00:00:49,292 wrong to edit the, they basically edited two bits of the speech from 17 00:00:49,292 --> 00:00:53,252 January the sixth, 2021, when he said like, let's all go down to the capitol. 18 00:00:53,312 --> 00:00:55,202 And then there's a bit where they cut out where he said, and just 19 00:00:55,202 --> 00:00:58,592 have a lovely, peaceful protest and definitely nobody shout, hang Mike 20 00:00:58,592 --> 00:01:00,062 Pence and bring in a load of zip ties. 21 00:01:00,362 --> 00:01:03,182 And then a bit later in the speech where he says, you know, you go down 22 00:01:03,182 --> 00:01:04,682 there and we're gonna fight like hell. 23 00:01:04,832 --> 00:01:05,042 Ian: yeah. 24 00:01:05,042 --> 00:01:08,222 One of our readers said, can you make it absolutely clear that by the 25 00:01:08,222 --> 00:01:11,672 time he said fight, fight, fight, his supporters were actually fighting. 26 00:01:12,242 --> 00:01:16,142 So what he was doing was placating the crowd. 27 00:01:16,172 --> 00:01:16,322 Right. 28 00:01:16,322 --> 00:01:18,302 Which I think is a good point from a reader. 29 00:01:18,392 --> 00:01:22,662 And I'm going to pass it to the BBC's lawyers in case that helps. 30 00:01:22,802 --> 00:01:23,107 Adam: That's the point. 31 00:01:23,162 --> 00:01:24,867 The bit they cut out was, he said, we're gonna go down to the capital. 32 00:01:25,112 --> 00:01:25,922 I will be with you. 33 00:01:26,507 --> 00:01:27,557 Then he wasn't crazy. 34 00:01:27,562 --> 00:01:30,827 He didn't, so actually in a way, they were making him look better by that cart, 35 00:01:30,857 --> 00:01:30,977 Andy: weren't 36 00:01:31,127 --> 00:01:33,257 and can I check why they were all there in the first place? 37 00:01:33,257 --> 00:01:35,687 Was it 'cause Trump had spent weeks denying the legitimacy 38 00:01:35,687 --> 00:01:36,482 of the election result 39 00:01:36,549 --> 00:01:37,809 Ian: no, you, you Trump 40 00:01:38,364 --> 00:01:38,754 Andy: Oh, 41 00:01:38,754 --> 00:01:38,964 got it. 42 00:01:39,084 --> 00:01:39,414 Okay. 43 00:01:39,519 --> 00:01:41,349 Ian: And probably worked for the BBC. 44 00:01:41,859 --> 00:01:44,439 Sorry, I'm just summarizing the rest of the letters that have come in. 45 00:01:44,859 --> 00:01:47,499 Helen: Yeah, it was a certification of the 2020 election results. 46 00:01:47,790 --> 00:01:50,730 But what ended up happening is, as you will have seen from the, the, the 47 00:01:50,730 --> 00:01:55,050 footage at the time, lots of people stormed into the capitol building 48 00:01:55,050 --> 00:01:58,764 in Washington, DC A protestor was shot trying to climb through a door. 49 00:01:59,214 --> 00:02:00,054 And since then 50 00:02:00,074 --> 00:02:02,139 Adam: Oh, and he was, impeached subsequently, wasn't he? 51 00:02:02,139 --> 00:02:02,499 Yeah, yeah. 52 00:02:02,559 --> 00:02:06,339 I mean, there was enough kind of evidence to make him look bad that the BBC didn't 53 00:02:06,339 --> 00:02:08,229 need to do an absolutely idiotic edit. 54 00:02:08,574 --> 00:02:09,594 Helen: And he pardoned. 55 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,879 Violent protestors in that whilst constantly quacking on about Antifa, 56 00:02:14,329 --> 00:02:17,449 uh, and how they're the real threat to America, threatening to certify 'em 57 00:02:17,449 --> 00:02:19,129 as a domestic terrorist organization. 58 00:02:19,399 --> 00:02:20,629 But yeah, so they, you are right. 59 00:02:20,869 --> 00:02:24,799 Basically Donald Trump didn't say exactly what the BBC accused him of saying. 60 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,559 There is a larger context to that, which is that we may think he said some 61 00:02:27,559 --> 00:02:29,029 things that were nonetheless quite bad. 62 00:02:29,269 --> 00:02:32,389 Ian: Legally, the fact that you are all offering common 63 00:02:32,389 --> 00:02:34,309 sense views is of no interest. 64 00:02:34,879 --> 00:02:40,203 Um, can we get down to what the law in America will allow him to do? 65 00:02:40,408 --> 00:02:43,378 Helen: Well, luckily we've got massive florid legal expert, Adam McQueen. 66 00:02:43,398 --> 00:02:44,358 Adam: Yeah, I've been on Wikipedia. 67 00:02:45,558 --> 00:02:46,848 No, I'm gonna slightly further than Wikipedia. 68 00:02:47,028 --> 00:02:47,358 Yeah, no. 69 00:02:47,395 --> 00:02:49,838 sort of standard thing that we say in the media in Britain is 70 00:02:49,838 --> 00:02:52,658 that American law is much, much better than, uh, than British law. 71 00:02:52,658 --> 00:02:55,478 When it comes, to libel, you know, is because they've got free speech and, 72 00:02:55,478 --> 00:02:58,358 you know, they're much, much more, I suspect in this case, actually it's 73 00:02:58,358 --> 00:03:01,148 one of these cases where Britain comes off rather better because there's a 74 00:03:01,148 --> 00:03:03,908 statute of limitations in Britain, which says that you can only sue for 75 00:03:03,908 --> 00:03:08,618 libel for a year after the broadcast or the publication took place, uh, on 76 00:03:08,618 --> 00:03:09,968 the sort of very good grounds that. 77 00:03:10,453 --> 00:03:12,823 If you've been horribly damaged by something and had your reputation 78 00:03:12,823 --> 00:03:15,583 introduced, you probably would've noticed before 12 months were 79 00:03:15,583 --> 00:03:17,293 out in this case, Trump didn't. 80 00:03:17,293 --> 00:03:19,423 He had to have pointed out to him by the Daily Telegraph. 81 00:03:19,483 --> 00:03:22,753 Quite an, an awful thing had been done to him in October, 2024. 82 00:03:23,143 --> 00:03:25,423 Uh, but he's still nevertheless claiming that his reputation was 83 00:03:25,423 --> 00:03:28,783 damaged so horribly that he has a case for libel he's gonna sue in Florida. 84 00:03:28,928 --> 00:03:32,618 Andy: far could he have gone if he hadn't had his reputation damaged by this? 85 00:03:32,678 --> 00:03:32,978 I know. 86 00:03:32,978 --> 00:03:36,158 Could he have become where, what's the promotion that he thinks he's missed 87 00:03:36,205 --> 00:03:36,343 Adam: out 88 00:03:36,348 --> 00:03:36,433 on there? 89 00:03:36,433 --> 00:03:39,013 This, you would think is kind of the key problem with this, is 90 00:03:39,013 --> 00:03:41,053 that you have to prove that harm has been done to your reputation. 91 00:03:41,053 --> 00:03:44,383 And the fact that he then went on to win the election and be elected 92 00:03:44,383 --> 00:03:47,083 as president of the USA does kind of suggest that it didn't have an 93 00:03:47,083 --> 00:03:49,363 enormous material, uh, effect on things. 94 00:03:49,363 --> 00:03:52,603 I mean, it was very, very unlikely that it was going to, given this was 95 00:03:52,603 --> 00:03:57,583 broadcast a panorama, which was only made in Britain, uh, and not on BBC America. 96 00:03:57,787 --> 00:03:58,647 Andy: was it screened there? 97 00:03:58,802 --> 00:03:59,702 Adam: It was never been screened. 98 00:03:59,702 --> 00:04:00,362 There it is. 99 00:04:00,367 --> 00:04:00,507 Apparently, 100 00:04:00,592 --> 00:04:01,827 Ian: It was screened in Britain. 101 00:04:02,217 --> 00:04:03,312 Um, though no one noticed. 102 00:04:04,332 --> 00:04:04,552 Um, 103 00:04:04,587 --> 00:04:07,527 Andy: Um, but what if accidentally, several million American tourists 104 00:04:07,587 --> 00:04:12,045 had come over here, watched it in the hotel rooms gone home for him, 105 00:04:12,045 --> 00:04:12,615 Ian: him, aren't you? 106 00:04:13,455 --> 00:04:13,665 Andy: Yeah. 107 00:04:13,755 --> 00:04:14,085 Um, deep 108 00:04:14,310 --> 00:04:15,450 Adam: that is about the one case you come. 109 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:17,820 I suppose you could also say if people have downloaded VPNs then 110 00:04:17,820 --> 00:04:20,250 presumably they would've been able to log into the BBC iPlay. 111 00:04:20,250 --> 00:04:24,000 But I think even then you are getting into some quite sort of um Yeah, yeah, yeah. 112 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,230 Rope ropey kind of issues. 113 00:04:25,230 --> 00:04:27,630 there was a case where the Barkley Brothers, do you remember this? 114 00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:31,020 Ian sued John Sweeney over an article that appeared in The Observer, 115 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,520 but they sued in the French court. 116 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,830 And it turns out, you know, there are one or two copies of the Observer that 117 00:04:34,830 --> 00:04:38,040 kind of taken over and sold at Guardian Nord on Monday morning or something. 118 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,204 So that was, ground enough for them to be able to sue there. 119 00:04:40,466 --> 00:04:44,696 Ian: Yachting magazines used to be a good, a good thing for these sort of oligarchs. 120 00:04:44,846 --> 00:04:49,196 Um, and they would say that the story had been picked up in some magazine that 121 00:04:49,196 --> 00:04:50,696 they read when they were buying a yacht. 122 00:04:50,876 --> 00:04:56,006 I mean, there are, there are a couple of really spurious cases, but in this one 123 00:04:56,243 --> 00:04:59,144 it looks like he'll end up in Florida. 124 00:04:59,519 --> 00:05:00,029 Adam: In Florida. 125 00:05:00,029 --> 00:05:00,209 Yeah. 126 00:05:00,209 --> 00:05:02,939 That's where he is gonna bring it, which is where of course he, he, he is resident, 127 00:05:02,939 --> 00:05:04,409 he's a, he's a voter in Florida, isn't he? 128 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:04,769 'cause he 129 00:05:05,879 --> 00:05:06,419 re-registered 130 00:05:06,499 --> 00:05:06,839 Helen: New York. 131 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:07,119 Yeah. 132 00:05:07,119 --> 00:05:07,139 From new 133 00:05:07,154 --> 00:05:08,189 Adam: New York down to Florida. 134 00:05:08,189 --> 00:05:08,459 Yeah. 135 00:05:08,739 --> 00:05:11,499 that is a slight problem because in Florida they have one other thing, which 136 00:05:11,499 --> 00:05:15,429 we don't have to, our advantage in the British system anymore, which is liable. 137 00:05:15,429 --> 00:05:18,429 Cases there are heard by jury, which has not been the case in this country. 138 00:05:18,769 --> 00:05:19,579 For a very long time. 139 00:05:19,579 --> 00:05:22,279 And just to clarify that, it is still possible you can't apply for a 140 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:23,629 libel case to be heard by jury here. 141 00:05:24,049 --> 00:05:26,569 The last case where someone tried to do that, that I know is, um, 142 00:05:26,599 --> 00:05:31,249 Lawrence Fox, um, famously, uh, actor turned lunatic, uh, who was, um, 143 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,789 sued by three people who on Twitter, he had decided to call pedophiles. 144 00:05:34,819 --> 00:05:37,639 He countersued and said that they'd called him racist and 145 00:05:37,639 --> 00:05:38,749 said that was libelous of him. 146 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,821 He wanted that to be heard by a jury. 147 00:05:40,859 --> 00:05:41,729 on the grounds. 148 00:05:41,759 --> 00:05:44,309 And this is the sort of thing, I don't need to give you any advice 149 00:05:44,309 --> 00:05:47,129 on this and things that don't go down well with judges, but he said 150 00:05:47,129 --> 00:05:50,489 it on, on the grounds that the judge was bound to show involuntary bias. 151 00:05:50,789 --> 00:05:52,799 Uh, so could he please have a jury trial and said. 152 00:05:52,864 --> 00:05:54,604 Didn't go down well with Mr. Justice Nicklin. 153 00:05:54,604 --> 00:05:56,674 He said, no, no, no, actually I'm not biased at all. 154 00:05:56,854 --> 00:05:57,334 I'm can hear this. 155 00:05:57,334 --> 00:06:01,234 And, and, and Lawrence Fox did, I'm afraid, lose that case and had 156 00:06:01,234 --> 00:06:02,314 to pay damages for calling people. 157 00:06:02,314 --> 00:06:02,824 Peter Falls. 158 00:06:03,254 --> 00:06:06,374 He is currently appealing the other half of the case, which is, um, the 159 00:06:06,374 --> 00:06:08,654 bit about where he was called racist. 160 00:06:08,864 --> 00:06:12,094 So that, part of the case is still got ongoing, but in this country, 161 00:06:12,094 --> 00:06:15,484 other than that we do not have, um, jury trials, hearing libel cases, 162 00:06:15,514 --> 00:06:16,894 certainly in England and Wales. 163 00:06:17,164 --> 00:06:17,764 Case is different. 164 00:06:17,764 --> 00:06:21,154 And I know private is come up against this in a case in, uh, Northern 165 00:06:21,154 --> 00:06:22,234 Ireland where you still do get 166 00:06:22,744 --> 00:06:23,944 Ian: you, You do. 167 00:06:24,124 --> 00:06:28,324 And , sometimes the makeup of the jury say on religious or 168 00:06:28,324 --> 00:06:31,234 denominational basis has some bearing. 169 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,619 On the outcome of the case. 170 00:06:33,865 --> 00:06:39,499 I felt perhaps unfairly that that was the reason that we lost so spectacularly 171 00:06:40,824 --> 00:06:42,559 in, in some of the cases there. 172 00:06:42,559 --> 00:06:44,869 But I, I don't feel we need to go into that. 173 00:06:44,929 --> 00:06:45,019 Right. 174 00:06:45,049 --> 00:06:51,262 What, what I'm interested in is, can Trump find the equivalent process where Elon 175 00:06:51,262 --> 00:06:54,082 Musk can happily call someone a pedo man, 176 00:06:54,802 --> 00:06:55,192 um, 177 00:06:55,282 --> 00:06:56,212 and get off? 178 00:06:56,782 --> 00:07:01,822 Is there a reverse where they'll say, yes, Trump will, was obviously given 179 00:07:01,822 --> 00:07:06,202 a very, very bad time by the B, BC and we should give him 5 billion pounds. 180 00:07:06,232 --> 00:07:06,772 Well, part, is it 181 00:07:06,832 --> 00:07:07,282 Adam: is, yeah. 182 00:07:07,282 --> 00:07:07,462 Yeah. 183 00:07:07,462 --> 00:07:09,652 But, and I think that's where the jury come in because the jury of 184 00:07:09,652 --> 00:07:13,522 Floridians are as likely to be biased in a particular political direction. 185 00:07:13,762 --> 00:07:17,842 As, as say your, your, your hypothetical jury in Northern Ireland might be, had 186 00:07:17,842 --> 00:07:21,203 to, had, had one, when written about a politician on either side there. 187 00:07:21,263 --> 00:07:22,223 Andy: They could be huge. 188 00:07:22,313 --> 00:07:24,653 Gavin and Stacey fans in Florida, we don't know. 189 00:07:24,773 --> 00:07:27,143 They might be devout Beeb defenders. 190 00:07:27,231 --> 00:07:28,120 Adam: It's very possible. 191 00:07:28,131 --> 00:07:28,641 Helen: I interject? 192 00:07:28,641 --> 00:07:31,911 You know, I love, um, Florida after having gone there to report on uh, governor 193 00:07:31,911 --> 00:07:34,431 DeSantis, but do you wanna know the thing that's happened in Florida this 194 00:07:34,431 --> 00:07:36,921 week that might give you an indication of what the makeup of this jewelry pool 195 00:07:36,921 --> 00:07:43,161 might be like in Florida, very recently, Russell brand baptized someone to 196 00:07:43,161 --> 00:07:46,071 Christianity in a penguin pool at the. 197 00:07:47,856 --> 00:07:48,636 Andy: With penguins. 198 00:07:49,056 --> 00:07:51,966 Helen: I dunno, it wasn't a penguin, it was a human. 199 00:07:52,626 --> 00:07:56,556 Ian: Yeah, no, the penguins were just witnesses, godparents, um, 200 00:07:56,856 --> 00:07:58,176 members of the congregation, 201 00:07:58,206 --> 00:08:00,486 Adam: it's, it's only about a year since he was baptized in the river. 202 00:08:00,486 --> 00:08:01,086 Thas by bear 203 00:08:01,446 --> 00:08:01,746 Helen: Bear 204 00:08:01,746 --> 00:08:02,226 grills. 205 00:08:02,226 --> 00:08:02,556 Yes. 206 00:08:02,556 --> 00:08:02,736 No. 207 00:08:02,736 --> 00:08:03,126 And now he's 208 00:08:03,156 --> 00:08:03,336 Adam: friends. 209 00:08:03,336 --> 00:08:05,406 So now he's allowed to baptize people himself. 210 00:08:05,406 --> 00:08:06,611 Is this how it usually works in 211 00:08:06,611 --> 00:08:06,691 it? 212 00:08:06,786 --> 00:08:06,929 It's, 213 00:08:07,056 --> 00:08:08,556 Ian: it's an apostolic succession. 214 00:08:09,756 --> 00:08:13,296 Surely you, you've got the hang of this. 215 00:08:13,296 --> 00:08:15,096 Adam: This is celebrity Christianity, isn't it? 216 00:08:15,096 --> 00:08:16,226 It's, a specific sect. 217 00:08:16,546 --> 00:08:18,286 Helen: Was also just quite unsanitary. 218 00:08:18,316 --> 00:08:20,806 I mean, I dunno what diseases Penguin have, but I wouldn't 219 00:08:20,866 --> 00:08:22,606 really testify that you would want to 220 00:08:22,661 --> 00:08:24,076 Ian: Dunno what diseases Russell Brand 221 00:08:24,206 --> 00:08:26,186 Adam: come, you'd come out pretty fishy, wouldn't you? 222 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:29,956 Helen: Russ Brands gave a penguin chlamydia. 223 00:08:29,986 --> 00:08:31,576 No, that's, that's not true. 224 00:08:31,676 --> 00:08:34,646 Adam: would be an example of a libelist comment on which Russ 225 00:08:34,646 --> 00:08:35,966 Brown will be justified ensuing. 226 00:08:36,278 --> 00:08:40,039 Ian: And we were always told that it was much, much better in America 'cause you 227 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:43,669 had to prove, particularly with public figures, that the intent was malicious. 228 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:46,429 And if you couldn't prove malice, which in America traditionally 229 00:08:46,429 --> 00:08:48,529 was a high bar, then you'd failed. 230 00:08:48,934 --> 00:08:51,034 Whereas in Britain, you don't have to prove malice. 231 00:08:51,034 --> 00:08:53,914 They sort of assume it, particularly when they're suing the eye. 232 00:08:53,914 --> 00:08:53,974 They 233 00:08:54,629 --> 00:08:57,159 Helen: They just look at your face and they think, yeah, you meant it. 234 00:08:57,964 --> 00:08:59,344 Ian: well, I come a look at you 235 00:08:59,374 --> 00:08:59,524 Helen: lot. 236 00:09:00,064 --> 00:09:00,634 Adam: You're absolutely right. 237 00:09:00,634 --> 00:09:03,574 That is an obligation in Florida, particularly for public officials. 238 00:09:03,574 --> 00:09:04,894 They have to prove actual malice in it. 239 00:09:04,894 --> 00:09:08,494 I would've thought actually in that point, he has something of a case which comes in 240 00:09:08,494 --> 00:09:13,204 the Prescott memo, which was raising, you know, the idea not just of one particular 241 00:09:13,204 --> 00:09:17,374 bit of, of bad editing, but you know, an actual bias by the entire newsroom of 242 00:09:17,374 --> 00:09:20,014 the BBC, um, against Trump in general. 243 00:09:20,344 --> 00:09:21,214 Uh, which they have. 244 00:09:21,274 --> 00:09:24,414 I mean the, the, you know, they've apologized specifically for that 245 00:09:24,414 --> 00:09:25,524 particular edit, haven't they? 246 00:09:25,524 --> 00:09:26,034 But, um, 247 00:09:26,242 --> 00:09:28,248 Helen: the problem is that Trump does more bad things. 248 00:09:28,248 --> 00:09:31,668 I mean, I've had, as you know, many criticisms of Joe Biden and the Democrats. 249 00:09:31,818 --> 00:09:35,568 But if you look at Donald Trump's record of losing lawsuits and having criminal 250 00:09:35,568 --> 00:09:39,348 charges impeachments against him, it if you weigh that in the balance against 251 00:09:39,348 --> 00:09:41,778 the things that Kamala Harris is supposed to do, this is one of the allegations 252 00:09:41,778 --> 00:09:45,571 in the Prescott report is that there was just a lot more on his rap sheet. 253 00:09:45,796 --> 00:09:49,186 The other thing to mention, I think, is the fact that none of these lawsuits 254 00:09:49,336 --> 00:09:51,856 that Trump ever raises against the media. 255 00:09:52,341 --> 00:09:54,070 Ever gets a judgment in his favor. 256 00:09:54,190 --> 00:09:57,970 I went looking and I, and, and I'm sure readers, listeners can write in with one 257 00:09:58,210 --> 00:09:59,890 'cause I've just, I just can't find one. 258 00:09:59,890 --> 00:10:00,940 So let's go through a couple of them. 259 00:10:01,090 --> 00:10:02,740 Wall Street Journal, that's ongoing. 260 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:06,220 That's the signature and the birthday card in the Epstein birthday book. 261 00:10:06,430 --> 00:10:07,180 10 billion. 262 00:10:07,180 --> 00:10:08,050 He wants off them. 263 00:10:08,230 --> 00:10:08,560 For, 264 00:10:08,625 --> 00:10:08,745 Andy: What? 265 00:10:08,745 --> 00:10:09,195 for 266 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:09,400 Helen: For 267 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:09,670 saying 268 00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:11,080 that he was friends with Jeffrey Epstein. 269 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,090 'cause he, which he was, which he obviously was. 270 00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:16,120 And there's a whole huge tra of new emails reminding everyone 271 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,260 just how friendly they were at one 272 00:10:17,307 --> 00:10:17,430 Adam: point. 273 00:10:17,460 --> 00:10:17,640 And 274 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,010 extraordinary with that case, still ongoing, who was one of the 275 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:23,853 guests of honor at Trump's state banquet, uh, at Windsor, last month. 276 00:10:24,543 --> 00:10:24,843 Rupert 277 00:10:24,843 --> 00:10:28,864 Murdoch, who he, who is, is named , in the suit as being specifically sued. 278 00:10:28,864 --> 00:10:31,234 And they're trying to bring forward his witness statements in case he's not around 279 00:10:31,939 --> 00:10:34,159 Helen: Nice to see that they can put that aside to get 280 00:10:34,159 --> 00:10:35,299 together in the state banquet. 281 00:10:35,299 --> 00:10:37,609 That's a real lesson to all in the age of cancel culture. 282 00:10:37,849 --> 00:10:39,049 So that one's going on. 283 00:10:39,079 --> 00:10:42,289 The Wall Street Journal basically said we are not folding at which point he's, 284 00:10:42,349 --> 00:10:43,729 you know, where, where's it gonna go? 285 00:10:43,999 --> 00:10:44,809 The New York Times. 286 00:10:44,809 --> 00:10:48,109 Similarly, he tried to keep them for 15 billion saying that 287 00:10:48,139 --> 00:10:51,259 they'd said very mean things and endorsed Kamala and they just went. 288 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:53,839 Are called press drum on him, basically. 289 00:10:53,839 --> 00:10:56,253 And And the ones that he actually has ended up getting a pair out with, so 290 00:10:56,253 --> 00:11:01,119 Paramount and A B, C, paramount was over the editing of the 60 Minutes documentary 291 00:11:01,119 --> 00:11:05,049 on CBS Kamala Harris's answers, which was another misleading edit. 292 00:11:05,289 --> 00:11:09,027 And they just basically folded some of the team at 60 Minutes resigned. 293 00:11:09,027 --> 00:11:12,027 They've now put Barry Weiser, the free press in charge of CBSA more Trump 294 00:11:12,027 --> 00:11:16,227 friendly voice because essentially they want to navigate the new media environment 295 00:11:16,227 --> 00:11:19,257 in which he's the president and source of all kind of access and power. 296 00:11:19,707 --> 00:11:22,917 And the same thing with a, b, c, uh, parent company, Disney. 297 00:11:22,917 --> 00:11:25,947 George Stephanopoulos, the anchor on that said Trump had been found 298 00:11:25,977 --> 00:11:27,507 liable and a court for rape. 299 00:11:27,567 --> 00:11:31,527 He had merely, as I've said before, he'd merely been found liable for sexual abuse. 300 00:11:32,065 --> 00:11:34,577 They gave him some money to the presidential library, basically 301 00:11:34,667 --> 00:11:37,247 to make him go away and to get their corporate goals back on 302 00:11:37,577 --> 00:11:37,757 Andy: So 303 00:11:37,757 --> 00:11:39,647 this is a clear modus operay. 304 00:11:39,947 --> 00:11:40,097 It's 305 00:11:40,127 --> 00:11:40,607 Helen: shakedowns. 306 00:11:40,607 --> 00:11:41,207 It's always 307 00:11:41,207 --> 00:11:41,237 a 308 00:11:41,267 --> 00:11:41,427 Adam: shakedown. 309 00:11:41,432 --> 00:11:43,382 It's, it's absolutely, and actually extends way before his 310 00:11:43,382 --> 00:11:44,612 time as, as, as president already. 311 00:11:44,612 --> 00:11:47,672 I mean, he was engaged in all his time as a, as a New York kind of real estate mug. 312 00:11:47,792 --> 00:11:49,952 He was engaged in, in countless lawsuits. 313 00:11:49,952 --> 00:11:54,222 I mean, his, his thing then was to get, get contractors in to do work and then 314 00:11:54,222 --> 00:11:57,582 query the work and say, wasn't gonna pay the full bill and tie people up in kind 315 00:11:57,612 --> 00:12:01,242 of legal costs, which, if you are a, you know, a, a small building firm in New York 316 00:12:01,362 --> 00:12:04,752 going up against the Trump organization, you know, that that's the, that's even if 317 00:12:04,752 --> 00:12:07,392 you think you're gonna win the case, it's, it's, it's tying you up in huge new cases. 318 00:12:07,392 --> 00:12:10,422 The, the, the journalist found this was ahead of the 2016 election, 319 00:12:10,632 --> 00:12:15,012 um, 3,500 lawsuits, which have been brought in cases like that with 320 00:12:15,012 --> 00:12:17,952 businesses trying to sue the Trump organization for unpaid fees and things. 321 00:12:17,952 --> 00:12:20,832 So he's always been a man who uses the law to his own ends. 322 00:12:20,832 --> 00:12:23,532 Not necessarily, as we were saying, in cases that get all the way to court, 323 00:12:23,712 --> 00:12:25,072 but in cases where, where just at the. 324 00:12:25,282 --> 00:12:30,154 The, the sheer kind of terror and cost of, fighting a case makes people back down. 325 00:12:30,154 --> 00:12:32,614 And this is the bit that worries me about the BBC because the BBC 326 00:12:32,697 --> 00:12:36,394 do have quite a lot of form on, uh, bricking it and pulling out of 327 00:12:37,239 --> 00:12:38,739 Ian: And there is a, a problem in that. 328 00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:42,726 he is a, very wealthy private individual as well as being the 329 00:12:42,726 --> 00:12:43,866 president of the United States. 330 00:12:44,076 --> 00:12:49,956 And the BBC is a state funded licensed payer funded organization, which is 331 00:12:49,956 --> 00:12:51,696 supposed to be responsible with money. 332 00:12:51,816 --> 00:12:55,866 So they are terrified about being seen to waste licensed payers money. 333 00:12:56,016 --> 00:12:57,306 And there were two stories in the press. 334 00:12:57,306 --> 00:13:01,836 One was a warning from, , various sources, IE the usual suspects 335 00:13:01,836 --> 00:13:05,136 that you'd better not be using licensed payers money for this case. 336 00:13:05,136 --> 00:13:05,976 And now I'm thinking. 337 00:13:06,565 --> 00:13:08,391 That's the only money they have. 338 00:13:08,721 --> 00:13:12,531 If they sell a program or a building or a, a picture, it's because a 339 00:13:12,531 --> 00:13:14,061 license payer paid for it originally. 340 00:13:14,061 --> 00:13:15,261 There is no other source. 341 00:13:15,621 --> 00:13:18,441 And the other story said, well, maybe the insurance will pay. 342 00:13:18,951 --> 00:13:23,976 Well, I have to say that, during my history of fighting liable occasionally 343 00:13:23,976 --> 00:13:28,506 private eye fought an action in tandem with someone who had libel insurance. 344 00:13:28,506 --> 00:13:32,856 Suffice to say we never had libel insurance and still don't. 345 00:13:33,033 --> 00:13:36,693 but if you are, if you are in tandem with people who have libel insurance, 346 00:13:36,813 --> 00:13:40,323 there comes a moment where the people you've been sitting next to 347 00:13:40,323 --> 00:13:41,823 saying, yeah, we're gonna fight this. 348 00:13:41,823 --> 00:13:42,438 We're gonna fight this. 349 00:13:42,873 --> 00:13:46,293 They suddenly say, Ian, we were, we were thinking of settling. 350 00:13:47,013 --> 00:13:49,803 And that's because their insurers have said, you're settling now. 351 00:13:50,302 --> 00:13:52,192 and they get the say so. 352 00:13:52,192 --> 00:13:52,492 It is, 353 00:13:52,672 --> 00:13:53,242 Helen: God, Wouldn't 354 00:13:53,242 --> 00:13:57,082 that be something though if the BBC ends up basically donating money, sort 355 00:13:57,082 --> 00:14:01,206 of giving him a jet like the Qataris or donating to his the question then becomes 356 00:14:01,206 --> 00:14:02,796 what leverage does he have over them? 357 00:14:03,036 --> 00:14:06,456 Because what he's used in American media organizations is, I'll kick you 358 00:14:06,456 --> 00:14:09,186 out the White House press, Paul, you won't travel on Air Force one anymore. 359 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:11,766 I'll block your merger with another organization. 360 00:14:11,886 --> 00:14:13,776 You know, I'll set the regulators on you. 361 00:14:14,136 --> 00:14:16,566 None of that really applies to the BBC. 362 00:14:16,566 --> 00:14:20,616 I mean, he could be beastly to Gary Donahue, uh, you know, sort like some, 363 00:14:20,916 --> 00:14:24,066 someone in Sarai Smith to just say sort of mean things about her appearance. 364 00:14:24,336 --> 00:14:27,996 But, you know, that's, there's not a lot of, he hasn't got a lot of what can he do 365 00:14:27,996 --> 00:14:32,256 to the BBC, or he can, as you said at the start, he can moan to ki and say, no one 366 00:14:32,256 --> 00:14:33,966 from Britain has ever allowed a visa again 367 00:14:34,281 --> 00:14:35,256 Adam: in terms of access. 368 00:14:35,256 --> 00:14:38,249 He's already, giving first questions at press conferences to GB news 369 00:14:38,249 --> 00:14:41,009 and singing the praises of, um, Beverly Turner at all times. 370 00:14:41,009 --> 00:14:44,279 So, you know, then they're, they're not, there's not a lot more that 371 00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:45,359 he can, he can come take away 372 00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:45,599 Helen: them. 373 00:14:45,689 --> 00:14:48,389 Have you watched the GB news interview with Beverly Turner and Trump? 374 00:14:48,449 --> 00:14:49,559 'cause I haven't yet. 375 00:14:49,619 --> 00:14:51,659 And I thought you may be the only person I know who would 376 00:14:51,659 --> 00:14:53,639 voluntarily do that to themselves. 377 00:14:53,669 --> 00:14:56,039 Adam: I'm gonna rush back to the office and watch it without doing that much. 378 00:14:56,729 --> 00:15:00,184 Helen: Would you say you're a great president or the greatest president? 379 00:15:00,614 --> 00:15:01,264 It's gonna be like 380 00:15:01,374 --> 00:15:03,539 Adam: That is the sort of, uh, coverage he likes, isn't it? 381 00:15:03,569 --> 00:15:03,719 Ian: Yeah. 382 00:15:03,749 --> 00:15:07,063 Well, I, I'm hoping someone will come up with a statistic about the number 383 00:15:07,063 --> 00:15:10,993 of times that off com have ruled already against GB news in a very 384 00:15:10,993 --> 00:15:14,503 short history of broadcasting and the number of times against the BBC. 385 00:15:14,503 --> 00:15:16,333 It's in its entire history. 386 00:15:16,483 --> 00:15:17,743 I mean, that there are 387 00:15:17,773 --> 00:15:19,723 Helen: very biased, very biased of you, Ian. 388 00:15:19,723 --> 00:15:20,083 Very 389 00:15:20,218 --> 00:15:22,423 Andy: It's no, it's, it's, it's genuinely outrageous. 390 00:15:22,423 --> 00:15:27,643 And also the, spectacle of various British political figures falling over 391 00:15:27,643 --> 00:15:31,813 themselves to criticize the B BBC and say, well, this is a clear argument 392 00:15:31,813 --> 00:15:33,013 that BBC shouldn't exist anymore. 393 00:15:33,703 --> 00:15:36,673 These people have no idea what exists in a country where you don't, where 394 00:15:36,673 --> 00:15:41,233 even the sort of fragmented version of the b BBC we've got where the people 395 00:15:41,233 --> 00:15:44,173 who work in the newsroom have to do endless layers of checks and compliance 396 00:15:44,173 --> 00:15:45,283 and referencing things upwards. 397 00:15:45,725 --> 00:15:48,665 Once that's taken away, you will really miss it. 398 00:15:48,965 --> 00:15:50,225 You will really miss it. 399 00:15:50,385 --> 00:15:51,765 Adam: How is your Radio Four show, Andy? 400 00:15:51,945 --> 00:15:52,445 Is it going well? 401 00:15:52,445 --> 00:15:52,685 Yeah. 402 00:15:53,945 --> 00:15:54,165 no, 403 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,190 Helen: I went, I did, I went on um, uh, various bits of the BBC to say I 404 00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:01,520 think some of the criticisms in the Prescott report are worth reflecting on. 405 00:16:01,670 --> 00:16:04,550 I think the BBC made mistakes in both directions on Israel, Gaza, 406 00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:07,235 I think on gender its felt really found difficult to kind of hold 407 00:16:07,235 --> 00:16:08,480 the space in for a discussion. 408 00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:11,330 But equally well as somebody who spends a lot of time in American 409 00:16:11,330 --> 00:16:14,870 covering the American media, the BBC's sort of squatting on the 410 00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:16,190 center of British public life. 411 00:16:16,190 --> 00:16:19,340 That means people from very different political persuasions have to be 412 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:20,870 represented on the same shows. 413 00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:25,010 And what you've got in America is you've got Fox and all the things now beyond Fox 414 00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:30,050 and you've got M-S-N-B-C now rebranded as Ms Now, and all the things beyond that. 415 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,990 And then there's just this cavernous space in the middle. 416 00:16:33,170 --> 00:16:37,040 And that's the bit that the BBC is, is holding us together as a society. 417 00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:37,550 Yeah. 418 00:16:37,550 --> 00:16:38,255 Genuinely don't, 419 00:16:38,255 --> 00:16:42,305 Andy: don't get versions of the World Service on Fox, where they hire Russian 420 00:16:42,305 --> 00:16:46,085 dissident journalists who've had to flee Russia to try and report some of 421 00:16:46,085 --> 00:16:49,685 the truth to people inside Russia who are brave enough to listen via A VPN. 422 00:16:50,075 --> 00:16:50,915 You just don't get it. 423 00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:52,850 Adam: Well, the closest equivalence to that were Voice of America 424 00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:55,250 and NPR, which he's already withdrawn funding for, hasn't he? 425 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:56,570 know, that's, that's 426 00:16:56,677 --> 00:16:56,865 Ian: direct. 427 00:16:57,025 --> 00:17:00,110 I mean, and again, for those of us who, who were brought up on an older 428 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,430 generation American journalist, you know, like Ed Morrow, I mean, talking 429 00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:07,970 about impartiality said, you have to remember when you're talking about, 430 00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:09,440 um, putting both sides of the case. 431 00:17:09,470 --> 00:17:12,140 Sometimes there isn't another side. 432 00:17:13,940 --> 00:17:17,576 And obviously I would try and use that, with drug. 433 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:20,186 Adam: What I would just say about the BBC is that you should 434 00:17:20,186 --> 00:17:23,726 never, ever underestimate their ability to turn a crisis into 435 00:17:23,726 --> 00:17:27,471 a full scale, 100 story flaming 436 00:17:27,686 --> 00:17:28,316 clusterfuck. 437 00:17:28,736 --> 00:17:32,843 Um, they will make, I mean it, this is a case of it, Michael Prescott put that, 438 00:17:32,914 --> 00:17:36,484 kind of dossier into the b BBC board, did he not in, in, in June last year. 439 00:17:36,967 --> 00:17:40,087 and it was, it was ignored or not acted upon, nothing done 440 00:17:40,087 --> 00:17:41,287 about it to his satisfaction. 441 00:17:42,022 --> 00:17:44,962 Then mysteriously somehow ends up with the daily telegraph and causes 442 00:17:44,962 --> 00:17:46,216 this, kind of enormous crisis. 443 00:17:46,426 --> 00:17:48,796 Ian: not very mysteriously if you read last issue, 444 00:17:50,026 --> 00:17:52,126 Adam: we've lost, um, we've lost a director of news. 445 00:17:52,126 --> 00:17:53,506 We've lost a director general. 446 00:17:53,953 --> 00:17:57,823 traditionally what the BBC tends to do is lurch in the opposite direction to 447 00:17:57,823 --> 00:17:59,173 the mistakes it was making last time. 448 00:17:59,173 --> 00:18:00,493 Overcompensate horribly. 449 00:18:00,793 --> 00:18:03,823 I mean, you remember this with, when they failed to expose Jimmy savi on 450 00:18:03,823 --> 00:18:07,993 Newsnight, then they lurched straight into exposing someone who wasn't a pedophile. 451 00:18:08,036 --> 00:18:10,879 and, and, and that we lost, we lost a director, another director 452 00:18:10,879 --> 00:18:11,899 general over that one, didn't it? 453 00:18:11,899 --> 00:18:14,154 It, it tends to be a case of, going 454 00:18:14,294 --> 00:18:16,004 madly in one direction, then madly in another. 455 00:18:16,004 --> 00:18:18,464 And what worries me is that they, they urged to prove that they 456 00:18:18,464 --> 00:18:19,634 are not biased against Trump. 457 00:18:19,634 --> 00:18:22,484 And that actually they don't have this kind of left-wing bias, is that now 458 00:18:22,484 --> 00:18:26,264 they will do everything they can to compensate him and, and will come up 459 00:18:26,264 --> 00:18:28,694 with, because of those other financial pressures that we're mentioning as well. 460 00:18:28,844 --> 00:18:32,509 Some sort of settlement, uh, uh, out of court, which then, um. 461 00:18:33,184 --> 00:18:34,409 essentially makes them the loser, doesn't 462 00:18:34,734 --> 00:18:39,774 Ian: my worry is my understanding of the, the, the American judicial system 463 00:18:39,774 --> 00:18:41,604 is that he obviously has no case. 464 00:18:41,844 --> 00:18:42,804 He brings it. 465 00:18:42,924 --> 00:18:46,434 He might get a jury, they might say, yes, you can have 5 billion 466 00:18:46,434 --> 00:18:49,824 pounds, or they might not, even if he loses, he goes to a higher court. 467 00:18:50,004 --> 00:18:52,914 If he loses in there despite not having a case that goes to our Ohio, 468 00:18:53,034 --> 00:18:54,564 we end up in the Supreme Court. 469 00:18:54,624 --> 00:18:55,434 Guess what? 470 00:18:55,494 --> 00:18:57,774 Donald wins into the BBC. 471 00:18:57,984 --> 00:19:00,774 Another 5 billion is the black hole Britain bankrupt. 472 00:19:00,982 --> 00:19:02,962 Adam: Well, that's true and that he has got a form for that. 473 00:19:02,962 --> 00:19:06,450 I mean the Eugene Carroll case where, he was found guilty in civil court 474 00:19:06,450 --> 00:19:09,900 in New York of, uh, both sexual assault and of defamation of her. 475 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,080 The defamation aspect of that is still, is right up there before the Supreme Court. 476 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,570 Now he's trying to bring that case and that's, that's two years afterwards. 477 00:19:15,570 --> 00:19:16,500 So this could go on forever. 478 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:19,830 And as we were saying, the pressure then from insurers and license fee payers and 479 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:23,210 the government to just settle and get out of this becomes ever the greater Can 480 00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:25,520 I just tell you the one fact I've been getting there, which is that Florida still 481 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,260 has a criminal libel law, but specifically only if you harm a bank's reputation 482 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,325 or accuse a female of being unchained. 483 00:19:33,170 --> 00:19:34,700 So it's lucky the BBC didn't do that. 484 00:19:34,730 --> 00:19:37,190 Helen: That must be a big problem in Florida from the people that I met. 485 00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:37,550 Andy: They 486 00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:38,030 Adam: also have a 487 00:19:40,263 --> 00:19:44,003 Andy: as we are recording this, there is an exciting array of announcements made by 488 00:19:44,003 --> 00:19:49,763 Shaba ud, uh, who has decided that we're going to really stop the right this time. 489 00:19:49,973 --> 00:19:52,133 Is that, is that a fair summary, Helen? 490 00:19:52,223 --> 00:19:52,793 Helen: is. 491 00:19:52,793 --> 00:19:56,003 Um, as I say, we're recording this as she's actually speaking. 492 00:19:56,063 --> 00:19:59,433 Um, I know people only have got the documents, but it was fairly heavily 493 00:19:59,433 --> 00:20:01,263 trailed in both the Guardian and the son. 494 00:20:01,613 --> 00:20:04,613 , and she's the new home secretary and she's determined to make our 495 00:20:04,613 --> 00:20:06,383 migration regime much tougher. 496 00:20:06,833 --> 00:20:09,983 But the reason I wanted to talk about this, I think I'm gonna confidently 497 00:20:09,983 --> 00:20:11,633 predict this is not going to go well. 498 00:20:12,263 --> 00:20:17,589 Uh, I just, Some of the stuff in there is, is relatively sensible and, uh, 499 00:20:17,619 --> 00:20:21,789 would command when you poll it commands majority support, but as a package, I 500 00:20:21,789 --> 00:20:23,799 think it looks a little bit grotesque. 501 00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:26,919 So there's a suggestion about whether or not you would take asylum seekers 502 00:20:26,919 --> 00:20:30,009 wealth off them, and this has kind of been rendered as, would you take 503 00:20:30,009 --> 00:20:32,559 people's jewelry off them or, but at least they get to keep their wedding 504 00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:35,769 rings and anything of sentimental value, which the point when you say that a lot 505 00:20:35,769 --> 00:20:38,409 of people instantly recoil from that. 506 00:20:38,709 --> 00:20:41,889 It just feels very, very mean and cheap and small. 507 00:20:42,219 --> 00:20:43,729 But, and then there's other stuff about whether or not. 508 00:20:44,604 --> 00:20:47,874 Refugees, for example, would now, if they arrive illegally, so through 509 00:20:47,874 --> 00:20:51,984 boats, have to wait 20 years before they could get a path to indefinite 510 00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:55,314 leave to remain, and that will be reassessed every two and a half years. 511 00:20:55,644 --> 00:20:58,674 So the idea being if somewhere if you come from somewhere like Syria and 512 00:20:58,674 --> 00:21:01,854 there's a change in government, basad falls, then you say, well actually now 513 00:21:01,854 --> 00:21:03,414 you a dissident against that regime. 514 00:21:03,834 --> 00:21:05,124 Maybe it's safe for you to go back. 515 00:21:05,154 --> 00:21:09,414 So not a completely crazy idea in in essence, but it is the idea 516 00:21:09,414 --> 00:21:11,754 that we've got enough capacity to interview people every two and a 517 00:21:11,754 --> 00:21:14,844 half years is again, already worrying 518 00:21:15,219 --> 00:21:16,719 Adam: How big is the backlog already? 519 00:21:16,719 --> 00:21:19,089 I mean, that's one of the main problems is the years behind with it. 520 00:21:19,089 --> 00:21:21,564 If you're suddenly gonna add in all these extra levels of bureaucracy. 521 00:21:21,699 --> 00:21:22,689 Andy: Yeah, it is shrinking. 522 00:21:22,779 --> 00:21:23,679 I mean, the backlog has come 523 00:21:23,829 --> 00:21:24,009 Adam: Well, It's 524 00:21:24,009 --> 00:21:25,749 gonna go straight up again if they've gotta do it again. 525 00:21:25,749 --> 00:21:27,369 Every two and a half years, isn't it? 526 00:21:27,549 --> 00:21:27,909 Helen: But yeah. 527 00:21:27,909 --> 00:21:30,129 But so I, I think it's interesting 'cause it's obviously a very 528 00:21:30,129 --> 00:21:31,359 big policy announcement. 529 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,739 It is a, a big, um, challenge to reform in the conservatives and an 530 00:21:35,739 --> 00:21:38,409 attempt to own the issue of immigration and stop the kind of what they call 531 00:21:38,409 --> 00:21:41,229 the pull factors that are, meaning people are getting on those boats. 532 00:21:41,851 --> 00:21:44,503 Stephen Bush and the FT had a good column this morning saying that the reason that 533 00:21:44,503 --> 00:21:47,353 the boats become such an issue is that, first of all, we made it harder for people 534 00:21:47,353 --> 00:21:51,223 to get visas and have come here legally as refugees through orthodox channels. 535 00:21:51,373 --> 00:21:53,293 And then we've essentially managed to stop people getting 536 00:21:53,293 --> 00:21:54,553 on the underneath of lorries. 537 00:21:54,763 --> 00:21:59,053 So this is the only method that's, that's left, but people are still willing to 538 00:21:59,053 --> 00:22:03,133 make that, that journey because it's still the p uh, you know, the chance of 539 00:22:03,133 --> 00:22:04,543 a life in Britain is still the prize. 540 00:22:04,543 --> 00:22:10,153 It's worth a risk of, I think a 2% chance of dying in the, in the extraordinary. 541 00:22:11,008 --> 00:22:14,218 Andy: And is the idea that even though lots of these proposals do command a 542 00:22:14,218 --> 00:22:18,712 kind of majority of opinion, that doesn't overlap very neatly with labor supporters? 543 00:22:18,857 --> 00:22:19,187 Helen: Yeah. 544 00:22:19,187 --> 00:22:21,497 I thought the most interesting intervention was by Tony Vaughn, 545 00:22:21,497 --> 00:22:22,637 who's the MP for folkston. 546 00:22:22,667 --> 00:22:23,267 So two things. 547 00:22:23,267 --> 00:22:26,147 That's the place where obviously most of the small boats land and a very 548 00:22:26,147 --> 00:22:28,337 reform exposed seat you would say. 549 00:22:28,517 --> 00:22:31,367 And he came straight outta the gate and said, aren't we trying to make 550 00:22:31,367 --> 00:22:35,657 refugees integrate rather than keeping them in this perpetual limbo of 551 00:22:35,687 --> 00:22:36,767 whether or not they'll be sent home? 552 00:22:36,767 --> 00:22:38,477 Isn't that what people want from immigration? 553 00:22:38,837 --> 00:22:42,107 And by the time we're recording this, I think nearly two dozen labor mps will also 554 00:22:42,107 --> 00:22:46,847 come out and And to me, that has therefore given an echoes of pip, the personal 555 00:22:46,847 --> 00:22:50,897 independence payment, this attempt to reform welfare, which labor you'd think 556 00:22:50,897 --> 00:22:56,087 have this massive majority, but actually they couldn't get their signature welfare 557 00:22:56,087 --> 00:23:00,827 reform through because over a hundred labor mps were ready to rebel on that. 558 00:23:01,217 --> 00:23:04,577 And this has got this feeling, which is on the surface, you think neighbors 559 00:23:04,577 --> 00:23:06,017 should be able to put through really big. 560 00:23:06,752 --> 00:23:10,262 Changes, but they just some, something about it is just not happening. 561 00:23:10,532 --> 00:23:14,072 And I think it's possibly because, and we can talk a bit more about this last 562 00:23:14,072 --> 00:23:20,012 week's sense of ki is now a sort of temporary leader, you know, or, or the 563 00:23:20,012 --> 00:23:22,832 other thing you might say is a lack of feeling of the direction of travel 564 00:23:22,832 --> 00:23:24,302 and the story that laborer telling. 565 00:23:24,722 --> 00:23:28,142 You know, I think that's what was the mps felt over Pip was they were being asked, 566 00:23:28,142 --> 00:23:31,052 I think you said this, Adam, they were being asked essentially to take money 567 00:23:31,052 --> 00:23:34,652 away from disabled people, which was not what they'd got into politics to do. 568 00:23:35,222 --> 00:23:36,872 And they just didn't want to do it. 569 00:23:36,872 --> 00:23:39,182 And then some of them said they were signed up for it reluctantly 570 00:23:39,182 --> 00:23:40,532 and then it got pulled anyway. 571 00:23:40,802 --> 00:23:43,382 And then they felt really duped and cheated. 572 00:23:43,592 --> 00:23:45,962 And this used to happen a lot with Victorian Peas under Boris 573 00:23:45,962 --> 00:23:49,172 Johnson where he would just reverse their policies after everybody 574 00:23:49,172 --> 00:23:50,402 had had to go out and defend them. 575 00:23:50,942 --> 00:23:54,602 And so it's, it is part of this general roiling sense that 15 months 576 00:23:54,602 --> 00:23:58,412 or whatever it is now, after the labor election victory, the wheels are already 577 00:23:59,067 --> 00:23:59,207 Ian: coming 578 00:23:59,207 --> 00:23:59,297 back. 579 00:23:59,297 --> 00:24:03,257 But is, is this part of a national desire for psychodrama that, I 580 00:24:03,257 --> 00:24:05,507 mean, 15 months of the same PM 581 00:24:05,567 --> 00:24:06,197 boring. 582 00:24:06,977 --> 00:24:07,037 Yeah. 583 00:24:07,067 --> 00:24:08,567 Well, I, why is he still there? 584 00:24:08,807 --> 00:24:09,197 Can't we have 585 00:24:09,197 --> 00:24:09,737 someone else? 586 00:24:11,207 --> 00:24:14,629 It just seems to be not a, a very useful thing to be 587 00:24:14,629 --> 00:24:16,189 inherited from the conservatives. 588 00:24:16,369 --> 00:24:20,149 Is a desire to decapitate your own party every year or so? 589 00:24:20,344 --> 00:24:20,584 Andy: Yeah. 590 00:24:20,644 --> 00:24:24,723 I mean, if, if the de decapitation has the effect of changing the 591 00:24:24,723 --> 00:24:27,303 underlying structural problems that the country's been wrestling with for 592 00:24:27,303 --> 00:24:28,743 years and years and years, then great. 593 00:24:29,103 --> 00:24:33,783 But there's a chance it might maybe not achieve everything if you just get Wes in. 594 00:24:33,873 --> 00:24:34,053 Is that 595 00:24:34,803 --> 00:24:37,443 Helen: Well, it comes back to the idea that they didn't really campaign 596 00:24:37,443 --> 00:24:41,253 on a manifesto that was truthful in the sense that we all spoke about 597 00:24:41,253 --> 00:24:44,193 this on the last podcast, the, the kind of fse about the budget, 598 00:24:44,193 --> 00:24:45,723 about, am I gonna raise income tax? 599 00:24:45,723 --> 00:24:46,353 Am I not? 600 00:24:46,893 --> 00:24:49,953 What they could have done is come in, won the argument, made the argument, 601 00:24:49,953 --> 00:24:52,353 and won the argument, and come in on a, and actually we're gonna have 602 00:24:52,353 --> 00:24:54,123 to increase the tax base of the uk. 603 00:24:54,273 --> 00:24:58,173 That's gonna require some hard sacrifices, but they just wanted to squeak over 604 00:24:58,173 --> 00:24:59,883 the line with an anti Tory vote. 605 00:24:59,943 --> 00:25:00,963 And sure enough they did. 606 00:25:01,293 --> 00:25:05,673 But now there's no, you know, there's no kind of mandate really for the things 607 00:25:05,673 --> 00:25:07,143 that they've been thinking about doing. 608 00:25:07,413 --> 00:25:10,708 Ian: Do you think they could get anything through, at all? 609 00:25:10,883 --> 00:25:13,618 Helen: Well, so then the other new proposals come in for this tourist 610 00:25:13,618 --> 00:25:17,128 tax, which they're gonna tag onto the devolution bill and something like that, 611 00:25:17,128 --> 00:25:20,338 which is essentially charged people who aren't British, a couple of quid a night 612 00:25:20,338 --> 00:25:22,078 in order to give money to metro mayors. 613 00:25:22,180 --> 00:25:22,690 Ian: but immediately 614 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,110 the hospitality industry has said, no, no, this will stop people coming to Britain. 615 00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:27,550 Stop, stop this now. 616 00:25:27,655 --> 00:25:28,675 Adam: I don't believe that one. 617 00:25:28,675 --> 00:25:28,735 I 618 00:25:28,735 --> 00:25:29,995 mean, the number of hotel bills I've 619 00:25:29,995 --> 00:25:30,175 had, 620 00:25:30,175 --> 00:25:30,385 which 621 00:25:30,385 --> 00:25:30,445 have 622 00:25:30,445 --> 00:25:33,805 had, you know, a, a few euros added on for a tourist tax and you're just 623 00:25:33,805 --> 00:25:35,065 kinda go, what the hell's this for? 624 00:25:35,065 --> 00:25:35,665 But it's not, 625 00:25:36,078 --> 00:25:39,040 Ian: But is that going to raise 94 billion pounds 626 00:25:39,310 --> 00:25:40,090 to fill the black. 627 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:40,650 Andy: Come 628 00:25:40,650 --> 00:25:40,810 on, 629 00:25:41,275 --> 00:25:41,845 Helen: It's gonna raise 630 00:25:41,845 --> 00:25:42,055 money. 631 00:25:42,055 --> 00:25:42,325 I think they 632 00:25:42,340 --> 00:25:42,940 Ian: figure is not 633 00:25:43,105 --> 00:25:43,675 Helen: accurate. 634 00:25:43,705 --> 00:25:44,005 No. 635 00:25:44,095 --> 00:25:44,455 Right. 636 00:25:45,005 --> 00:25:47,495 Ian: so they could get that one through, but you don't think they can get any 637 00:25:47,495 --> 00:25:48,695 of these other big things through? 638 00:25:48,890 --> 00:25:49,340 Helen: Well, I dunno. 639 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,530 The income tax climb down is really interesting. 640 00:25:51,530 --> 00:25:55,730 So Rachel Reeves summoned everybody to into a press conference in November 641 00:25:55,730 --> 00:25:58,880 the third, fourth, and sort of went, well, things aren't looking good guys. 642 00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,630 What are we gonna do about it? 643 00:26:00,053 --> 00:26:03,783 she even submitted though that plan to the OBR, the office for budget responsibility. 644 00:26:03,813 --> 00:26:03,873 Yeah. 645 00:26:03,933 --> 00:26:05,403 So it was really seriously far down 646 00:26:05,478 --> 00:26:05,688 Andy: road. 647 00:26:06,558 --> 00:26:08,778 Everyone was, everyone was prepped for, oh, will it be one p? 648 00:26:08,778 --> 00:26:09,408 Will it be two P? 649 00:26:09,408 --> 00:26:10,128 Oh, you know what's 650 00:26:10,233 --> 00:26:10,473 Helen: Yeah. 651 00:26:10,563 --> 00:26:12,993 And then she went, oh no, the guilt yields actually look much better. 652 00:26:12,993 --> 00:26:14,193 We won't, we won't do it. 653 00:26:14,493 --> 00:26:18,123 But then now is, is poised to keep the tax thresholds for higher an 654 00:26:18,123 --> 00:26:19,473 additional rate where they were. 655 00:26:19,893 --> 00:26:22,383 So she's essentially putting a huge tax rise on a lot of people. 656 00:26:22,383 --> 00:26:24,633 If those had gone up in line with inflation, yeah, they'd be 657 00:26:24,633 --> 00:26:25,863 much, much higher than they are. 658 00:26:26,193 --> 00:26:29,463 So she's kind of managing in the same way that putting employers national 659 00:26:29,463 --> 00:26:34,383 insurance up, she's keeping to the vaguely to this letter of no tax on working 660 00:26:34,450 --> 00:26:34,653 Ian: people, 661 00:26:34,653 --> 00:26:37,803 well, so it's fiscal drag rather than putting your tax 662 00:26:37,958 --> 00:26:38,248 Helen: Yeah. 663 00:26:38,248 --> 00:26:38,608 Rather than 664 00:26:38,748 --> 00:26:42,108 Adam: But people don't look, I mean, yeah, it absolutely is. 665 00:26:42,108 --> 00:26:45,258 People, you know, they're either paying more money in tax or they're not. 666 00:26:45,318 --> 00:26:46,608 Then that's the way that people look at it. 667 00:26:46,608 --> 00:26:47,238 They go, well, it's right. 668 00:26:47,238 --> 00:26:48,048 No, it's in this tax. 669 00:26:48,048 --> 00:26:49,663 So that, that, that's absolutely fine. 670 00:26:49,897 --> 00:26:55,477 Andy: I do sometimes quite want labor to be, this is a funny phrase, more unpopular 671 00:26:55,837 --> 00:26:58,687 and I know they can't get much more unpopular, but what I mean is they kept, 672 00:26:58,717 --> 00:27:02,287 they kept saying before the election, we are gonna have to make hard choices. 673 00:27:02,527 --> 00:27:04,357 And you keep seeing these choices being swerved. 674 00:27:04,462 --> 00:27:06,292 is that because of press screaming? 675 00:27:06,292 --> 00:27:07,072 Is it because of, 676 00:27:07,102 --> 00:27:08,452 Helen: I think it's because they've got seats that are 677 00:27:08,452 --> 00:27:09,682 facing in all different ways. 678 00:27:09,682 --> 00:27:12,052 They're vulnerable to a load of seats, to the Lib Dems, load of 679 00:27:12,052 --> 00:27:13,252 seats to reform, load of seats. 680 00:27:13,252 --> 00:27:16,192 Probably now a couple of seats to the more seats to the greens, maybe 681 00:27:16,192 --> 00:27:17,632 some to the Gaza independence. 682 00:27:17,962 --> 00:27:21,232 So they're just trying to face in all directions at once. 683 00:27:21,232 --> 00:27:24,982 And in Zach Polanski, the new green leader, new-ish green leader is 684 00:27:24,982 --> 00:27:26,512 just going, I tax the rich more. 685 00:27:26,512 --> 00:27:27,832 That's his answer to everything. 686 00:27:27,982 --> 00:27:28,042 Yeah. 687 00:27:28,102 --> 00:27:30,772 And you can get into a dry debate about explaining, there aren't that many, 688 00:27:31,397 --> 00:27:32,627 additional rate tax payers, right? 689 00:27:32,627 --> 00:27:36,197 So the top 1% of our income ban pay 29% of the income tax. 690 00:27:36,227 --> 00:27:37,517 We have a good progressive tax 691 00:27:37,517 --> 00:27:37,757 system 692 00:27:37,757 --> 00:27:38,207 already. 693 00:27:38,747 --> 00:27:38,922 that's, Like 694 00:27:38,922 --> 00:27:39,302 that's, good. 695 00:27:39,302 --> 00:27:39,917 I support that. 696 00:27:39,917 --> 00:27:40,727 That's a very good idea. 697 00:27:40,727 --> 00:27:40,787 Yeah. 698 00:27:41,057 --> 00:27:45,257 But the idea that you can just find, you know, our, our seven billionaires 699 00:27:45,857 --> 00:27:49,817 to fight for the NHS is unfortunately silly, but they can't articulate. 700 00:27:50,582 --> 00:27:51,392 That's not right. 701 00:27:51,392 --> 00:27:53,984 Well, who, who is, who are the people who should pay more tax? 702 00:27:53,984 --> 00:27:56,587 Adam: The bit that really, really amuses me is how many of these problems are 703 00:27:56,587 --> 00:27:58,897 just of their own unnecessary making. 704 00:27:59,227 --> 00:28:02,197 I mean, Rachel Reeves, if you, if you're gonna end up not raising income 705 00:28:02,197 --> 00:28:04,837 tax, don't go out and do a speech in which you say, well, I might have to 706 00:28:04,837 --> 00:28:06,217 make a manifesto promise, by the way. 707 00:28:06,217 --> 00:28:08,167 'cause everyone goes, oh, she's breaking manifesto promise. 708 00:28:08,317 --> 00:28:08,917 And don't do it. 709 00:28:09,369 --> 00:28:13,479 The whole stuff over Wes treating and the leadership was literally Ki Thomas's 710 00:28:13,479 --> 00:28:15,159 number 10 going, oh, he is very weak. 711 00:28:15,159 --> 00:28:17,709 You know, he is in a very weak position, but he's gonna fight on, he's gonna take 712 00:28:17,709 --> 00:28:18,789 on anyone who's gonna challenge him. 713 00:28:18,789 --> 00:28:21,189 And you hear, oh, he's weak and he's being ch he's gonna 714 00:28:21,297 --> 00:28:21,834 Andy: challenged. 715 00:28:21,834 --> 00:28:21,894 Yeah. 716 00:28:21,924 --> 00:28:23,394 Can we explain the context of that, how that 717 00:28:23,409 --> 00:28:25,809 Adam: all No, because he made no sense whatsoever. 718 00:28:26,154 --> 00:28:26,514 Andy: ever. 719 00:28:26,634 --> 00:28:28,134 Helen: Um, so on Tuesday, 720 00:28:28,134 --> 00:28:28,614 uh, 721 00:28:29,154 --> 00:28:32,364 um, lobby, um, journalists began to get briefings, basically saying 722 00:28:32,364 --> 00:28:35,094 there's a plot for a coup against K Starer, but he's, well, gonna 723 00:28:35,094 --> 00:28:36,324 fight them in the carpark, right? 724 00:28:36,744 --> 00:28:40,854 And that came from, who can say who, but almost everybody's agreed that 725 00:28:40,854 --> 00:28:44,364 it's from sources close to Morgan McSweeney, the number 10 chief of staff 726 00:28:44,364 --> 00:28:47,254 and Star's key, election strategist. 727 00:28:47,674 --> 00:28:49,384 And then where's Streeting? 728 00:28:49,384 --> 00:28:50,374 Who's the health secretary? 729 00:28:50,374 --> 00:28:50,659 Then went. 730 00:28:51,284 --> 00:28:55,394 For a media round the next morning in which he actually knocked it out the park. 731 00:28:55,394 --> 00:28:57,164 This is a, which is a huge problem for Stama. 732 00:28:57,224 --> 00:29:00,734 He essentially said, you're attacking one of the most loyal faithfuls like they 733 00:29:00,734 --> 00:29:04,094 did to Joe on Traitors and everyone, oh, we watch his television, he's just like 734 00:29:04,194 --> 00:29:04,339 Andy: us. 735 00:29:04,339 --> 00:29:06,919 because people, people, people had all the briefings had 736 00:29:06,919 --> 00:29:07,974 included the fact that treating 737 00:29:08,204 --> 00:29:09,254 Helen: the treating was the kind of, 738 00:29:09,265 --> 00:29:09,469 Ian: you know, 739 00:29:09,469 --> 00:29:10,699 I thought you were gonna explain what 740 00:29:11,144 --> 00:29:11,234 Helen: was 741 00:29:11,389 --> 00:29:11,689 Ian: there, 742 00:29:12,229 --> 00:29:13,969 which I thought would've been really helpful. 743 00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:16,429 But no, you two just assume 744 00:29:16,559 --> 00:29:16,639 Helen: everyone 745 00:29:16,644 --> 00:29:19,874 a popular BBC one show in which people vote out the traitors. 746 00:29:20,024 --> 00:29:20,624 But, um, 747 00:29:20,689 --> 00:29:21,949 Andy: people have briefed that Streeting was 748 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:22,244 Helen: behind 749 00:29:22,244 --> 00:29:22,334 this. 750 00:29:22,334 --> 00:29:26,114 Yeah, street team was behind this and he got 50 mps ready, um, to go. 751 00:29:26,504 --> 00:29:27,644 And he's denied it all. 752 00:29:27,644 --> 00:29:29,266 But, probably, he he Yeah. 753 00:29:29,266 --> 00:29:30,946 I don't think anyone wants, be surprised to hear that we're 754 00:29:30,946 --> 00:29:33,646 Street would like to be leader of Labor Party has ambitions in that 755 00:29:33,762 --> 00:29:33,906 Adam: direction. 756 00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:36,704 The other thing that intrigued me in my slightly conspiracy theory mindset 757 00:29:36,704 --> 00:29:38,714 was that the other person who was then talked about if it wasn't gonna be 758 00:29:38,714 --> 00:29:40,184 wars, it was gonna be Shaman Mahmud. 759 00:29:40,544 --> 00:29:43,064 Shaman Mahmud, as we've been discussing then comes out with this sort of oven 760 00:29:43,064 --> 00:29:47,444 ready policy that looks very kind of, um, conservative reform facing. 761 00:29:47,954 --> 00:29:49,454 Is that a coincidence, do you think? 762 00:29:49,454 --> 00:29:51,734 I mean, she's been, she's only been in the job about five minutes, hasn't she? 763 00:29:51,734 --> 00:29:52,484 As home secretary. 764 00:29:52,484 --> 00:29:53,444 So she's come up with that pretty 765 00:29:53,849 --> 00:29:55,829 Helen: Mm. I'm just wondering whether or not that was pre-baked 766 00:29:55,829 --> 00:29:58,769 for Yvette Cooper, her predecessor, and she's just become the face of it. 767 00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:03,329 I think the thing that's very true is that she's very happy to be quite hard line. 768 00:30:03,369 --> 00:30:06,389 she was offered, um, chemically, castrating rapists. 769 00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:08,765 I mean, you know, she say things that lots of people in labor simply 770 00:30:08,909 --> 00:30:10,709 wouldn't be okay with saying. 771 00:30:10,709 --> 00:30:10,919 So. 772 00:30:10,919 --> 00:30:13,387 I, it's interesting that it's under her because I think she 773 00:30:13,387 --> 00:30:15,217 does genuinely believe the stuff 774 00:30:15,217 --> 00:30:15,937 Ian: If you are looking for. 775 00:30:16,065 --> 00:30:19,215 For people who would like to fight a leadership contest. 776 00:30:19,215 --> 00:30:23,815 Now, I would've thought West Streeting, he's quite young, he can be leader 777 00:30:23,815 --> 00:30:26,305 later when everything isn't a shit show. 778 00:30:26,575 --> 00:30:29,728 And he's just winning over the, doctor, the resident doctor 779 00:30:29,728 --> 00:30:31,528 strikes, he's on a bit of a role. 780 00:30:32,068 --> 00:30:34,228 I think he might just stay where he is at the moment. 781 00:30:34,348 --> 00:30:37,018 Shabana Mahmud, you are introducing something that most 782 00:30:37,018 --> 00:30:38,758 labor back pensioners don't like. 783 00:30:39,268 --> 00:30:43,678 I think you need a bit of time to wait until that's played out 784 00:30:43,738 --> 00:30:44,938 and then maybe you'll do it. 785 00:30:45,058 --> 00:30:49,318 So my guess is that the, the appetite for either of those two people to be leader 786 00:30:49,318 --> 00:30:51,201 at the moment is very, very small among 787 00:30:51,221 --> 00:30:53,506 for number 10 to make a fuss is crazy. 788 00:30:54,056 --> 00:30:56,546 Helen: Yeah, certainly among labor members, the problem that both of them 789 00:30:56,546 --> 00:31:01,346 have is that they are on the center right of the party and that the, what our 790 00:31:01,346 --> 00:31:04,496 evidence from leadership elections have passed is this, is that it's not the same 791 00:31:04,496 --> 00:31:06,746 constituency that selected Jeremy Corbin. 792 00:31:06,746 --> 00:31:09,086 Lots of those people have left to go to your party or the Greens, 793 00:31:09,326 --> 00:31:13,346 but Ki Star's pitch in 2020 was Exactly, I'm continuity Corbin, but I 794 00:31:13,346 --> 00:31:15,926 wouldn't have done, I would've been, you know, stronger in Europe and I 795 00:31:15,926 --> 00:31:17,276 would've been tougher on antisemitism. 796 00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:21,086 It certainly wasn't bury this man's leadership in a big hole. 797 00:31:21,356 --> 00:31:24,866 So I think you are a absolutely right on that, is that actually both of those 798 00:31:24,866 --> 00:31:28,556 could probably benefit from cooking a bit longer to try and convince the members. 799 00:31:28,766 --> 00:31:31,436 West Streeting came out and said, I welcome the election of Zidane 800 00:31:32,006 --> 00:31:33,416 Ani, a Democratic socialist. 801 00:31:33,416 --> 00:31:36,086 Very, a very left wing mayor in New York. 802 00:31:36,266 --> 00:31:37,646 And I was like, oh, okay. 803 00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:40,616 You know, after somebody who would, you know, would've agreed 804 00:31:40,616 --> 00:31:41,876 with Morgan McSweeney and. 805 00:31:41,956 --> 00:31:45,556 Peter Mandelson and Street urinate, Peter Mandelson, that the left 806 00:31:45,556 --> 00:31:47,536 should be locked into a sealed 807 00:31:47,536 --> 00:31:47,926 tomb. 808 00:31:48,016 --> 00:31:48,526 Please Google 809 00:31:48,526 --> 00:31:48,646 that. 810 00:31:48,701 --> 00:31:48,791 Andy: If 811 00:31:48,791 --> 00:31:49,991 you dunno the context it is, 812 00:31:49,991 --> 00:31:50,461 Helen: there is 813 00:31:50,461 --> 00:31:52,366 a I've nothing but someone with a 814 00:31:52,471 --> 00:31:52,631 Adam: done a 815 00:31:52,646 --> 00:31:53,996 wee on John George Osborne's 816 00:31:54,114 --> 00:31:54,286 Helen: house. 817 00:31:54,346 --> 00:31:57,114 Nothing but sympathy for Peter Mandelson's small bladder. 818 00:31:57,204 --> 00:31:58,524 There'd be no condemnation here. 819 00:31:58,824 --> 00:32:01,404 But anyway, but there, but he once said the left should be like put 820 00:32:01,404 --> 00:32:04,434 into a sealed tomb and that is essentially Morgan MCs Sweeney's view. 821 00:32:04,554 --> 00:32:07,884 It was where Street's view, but where Streeting has clearly reminded 822 00:32:07,884 --> 00:32:10,434 himself that the other way you could sort of describe the left is 823 00:32:10,824 --> 00:32:12,594 labor, selection, contest voters. 824 00:32:12,954 --> 00:32:14,454 And he should probably start being nice to them. 825 00:32:14,719 --> 00:32:15,229 Andy: Yes. 826 00:32:15,234 --> 00:32:16,073 I think it's One of 827 00:32:16,073 --> 00:32:20,123 the very last popular labor ministers is now Ed Miller Band, who has, he 828 00:32:20,123 --> 00:32:22,973 said the other day in an interview, I've been thoroughly inoculated against 829 00:32:23,153 --> 00:32:24,623 wanting the labor leadership job. 830 00:32:24,623 --> 00:32:25,553 Thank you very much. 831 00:32:25,628 --> 00:32:25,898 Adam: That 832 00:32:25,898 --> 00:32:27,008 would be, a hell of a comeback. 833 00:32:27,008 --> 00:32:29,678 The only thing that can make that more spectacular would be if his brother stood 834 00:32:29,784 --> 00:32:30,023 Helen: against 835 00:32:30,023 --> 00:32:30,113 him. 836 00:32:30,278 --> 00:32:30,488 Adam: it again. 837 00:32:30,488 --> 00:32:31,283 I lost one now. 838 00:32:34,925 --> 00:32:38,405 Andy: Right now we come on to the lighthearted third story. 839 00:32:39,270 --> 00:32:39,740 The end of the 840 00:32:39,810 --> 00:32:39,970 world 841 00:32:40,175 --> 00:32:40,295 The 842 00:32:40,295 --> 00:32:40,985 End of the world, 843 00:32:41,585 --> 00:32:43,925 uh, is ni neither than ever before. 844 00:32:43,985 --> 00:32:46,895 Uh, and to do something about it where the world is now having 845 00:32:46,895 --> 00:32:49,805 the 30th Cop Climate Summit. 846 00:32:49,835 --> 00:32:52,685 Uh, this one is in Brazil, which is quite circular 'cause this 847 00:32:52,685 --> 00:32:53,825 is where, where it all began. 848 00:32:53,825 --> 00:32:55,955 The Earth Summit in 1992 was in Rio. 849 00:32:56,147 --> 00:32:56,687 Helen: are we doomed? 850 00:32:56,687 --> 00:32:56,897 Andy? 851 00:32:56,897 --> 00:32:57,197 Come on. 852 00:32:57,197 --> 00:32:57,677 Cut to Chase. 853 00:32:57,677 --> 00:32:58,367 Are we doomed? 854 00:32:58,550 --> 00:32:59,360 Andy: I mean, yeah, definitely. 855 00:32:59,420 --> 00:33:03,457 But, the question people are asking a lot this year is. 856 00:33:03,993 --> 00:33:05,643 Is cop fit for purpose anymore? 857 00:33:05,793 --> 00:33:09,904 Is there a point this is the 30th we've had of these annual conferences. 858 00:33:09,904 --> 00:33:11,755 Now, emissions are still rising. 859 00:33:11,755 --> 00:33:14,840 So the problem is getting worse, faster. 860 00:33:14,995 --> 00:33:16,075 Helen: What is the point of cop? 861 00:33:16,207 --> 00:33:17,827 Andy: it's really interesting, all leaders. 862 00:33:18,232 --> 00:33:20,602 Assemble for a couple of days at the start. 863 00:33:20,782 --> 00:33:22,925 There's a summit, there are photo ops, there are all of that. 864 00:33:22,925 --> 00:33:26,045 There are speeches they leave for a couple of weeks. 865 00:33:26,165 --> 00:33:30,785 Uh, and then each country's climate teams, you know, negotiators, diplomats, all 866 00:33:30,785 --> 00:33:35,574 of that thrash out this huge number of subjects about things like finance, about 867 00:33:35,574 --> 00:33:38,154 things like emissions, about, you know, there's, there's so much about forests, 868 00:33:38,154 --> 00:33:39,654 about whatever it is about biodiversity. 869 00:33:39,998 --> 00:33:43,528 and at the end of it, you have this statement that is meant 870 00:33:43,528 --> 00:33:45,418 to be kind of gaveled through. 871 00:33:45,868 --> 00:33:49,078 It doesn't have to be exactly unanimous, but it does have to be consensus, which 872 00:33:49,179 --> 00:33:52,768 basically means almost everyone and various things have been gaveled through 873 00:33:52,768 --> 00:33:54,298 with a few objections in the past. 874 00:33:54,298 --> 00:33:57,568 You know, when, when, like the, the small island Nations have nipped out for a 875 00:33:57,568 --> 00:33:58,888 cigarette or whatever they say, right? 876 00:33:58,888 --> 00:33:59,068 Right. 877 00:33:59,068 --> 00:33:59,848 That'll do for this year. 878 00:33:59,848 --> 00:34:02,188 You know, so it's not a perfect process by any means, but 879 00:34:02,188 --> 00:34:03,238 that's what you end up with. 880 00:34:03,238 --> 00:34:07,288 You end up with this statement of intent and you end up with a load of 881 00:34:07,498 --> 00:34:10,858 very, very complicated language that any normal person observing this. 882 00:34:11,233 --> 00:34:13,572 Thinks very baffling and confusing. 883 00:34:13,632 --> 00:34:14,382 'cause it is, you know? 884 00:34:14,442 --> 00:34:14,527 Mm-hmm. 885 00:34:14,727 --> 00:34:17,727 Ian: there is a very, very good play called Kto, which I would 886 00:34:17,727 --> 00:34:22,467 recommend everyone go and see which recreates one of these conferences, 887 00:34:22,617 --> 00:34:26,247 including representatives from the small islands, the failure of 888 00:34:26,247 --> 00:34:29,847 the Saudis, uh, the Chinese, the Americans to agree anything at all. 889 00:34:30,098 --> 00:34:32,948 and the attempts to use really the powers of. 890 00:34:33,278 --> 00:34:34,988 Persuasion and punctuation. 891 00:34:35,498 --> 00:34:36,128 Um, yeah. 892 00:34:36,188 --> 00:34:38,918 To get through clauses that might mean something. 893 00:34:39,008 --> 00:34:43,401 I only say that because it, if you can get hold of it, it is a completely brilliant 894 00:34:43,551 --> 00:34:45,201 analysis of how the progress works. 895 00:34:45,261 --> 00:34:46,431 But that was a long time 896 00:34:46,446 --> 00:34:46,536 Andy: ago, 897 00:34:46,746 --> 00:34:46,896 Yeah. 898 00:34:46,901 --> 00:34:46,961 Okay. 899 00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:49,666 the language is, is insane. 900 00:34:49,666 --> 00:34:53,806 You get these Nations debating furiously, are we gonna phase out 901 00:34:53,866 --> 00:34:56,206 fossil fuels or phase down fossil fuels? 902 00:34:56,206 --> 00:34:59,799 And you know, that was a huge sticking point at Glasgow a few years ago, all 903 00:34:59,799 --> 00:35:03,685 of this can be said to not have a huge amount of impact on the real world, 904 00:35:04,165 --> 00:35:07,703 but despite all of this, despite the fact you're inviting every country, 905 00:35:07,703 --> 00:35:10,913 and a lot of them are petro states and want absolutely nothing to do with this 906 00:35:10,913 --> 00:35:16,133 process, nonetheless, progress has been made in very, very big and significant 907 00:35:16,133 --> 00:35:20,963 ways that have massively bent to the curve of future climate change from 908 00:35:20,963 --> 00:35:23,213 four degrees, which is, you know, a 909 00:35:23,287 --> 00:35:25,087 profoundly toasty situation for the world. 910 00:35:25,087 --> 00:35:29,077 This is by 2100 I, I mean, really disastrous down to 2.6, 911 00:35:29,257 --> 00:35:30,847 which is still really bad. 912 00:35:30,967 --> 00:35:34,327 You know, we're at about 1.3 at the moment, so all the kind of extra 913 00:35:34,387 --> 00:35:36,757 droughts and, you know, ask any British farmer how they're harvest 914 00:35:36,757 --> 00:35:38,857 doing all of that is down to 1.3. 915 00:35:39,037 --> 00:35:44,197 We're on course for 2.6, but the curve has been bent and the Brazilian host 916 00:35:44,197 --> 00:35:47,488 of cop this year have said, we want this to be the cop of implementation. 917 00:35:47,890 --> 00:35:48,859 they already have a target. 918 00:35:48,859 --> 00:35:50,299 It was set at Paris 10 years ago. 919 00:35:50,689 --> 00:35:52,399 They have a framework that was set at Glasgow. 920 00:35:53,059 --> 00:35:54,589 We now need to speed this up. 921 00:35:54,829 --> 00:35:59,719 And so you are seeing the co process change from one where everyone agrees 922 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,499 something and then we all go away and do it to one where there are lots of 923 00:36:03,649 --> 00:36:05,539 little bilateral processes going on. 924 00:36:05,539 --> 00:36:09,019 There's the Powering Past Coal Alliance, there's the International 925 00:36:09,019 --> 00:36:12,259 Soler Group, you know, all of these different little mini coalitions of the 926 00:36:12,259 --> 00:36:14,380 willing who are forming their own path, 927 00:36:14,457 --> 00:36:17,457 Helen: So it's not just the case that China or the Petros 928 00:36:17,787 --> 00:36:19,737 just can block things like that. 929 00:36:19,887 --> 00:36:21,297 Has that problem been overcome? 930 00:36:21,672 --> 00:36:24,072 Andy: no, I wouldn't say so. 931 00:36:24,434 --> 00:36:27,764 the Guardian wrote a brilliant piece outlining how Saudi Arabia have 932 00:36:27,764 --> 00:36:31,034 behaved over the last 30 years, and their position is very much, look, we 933 00:36:31,034 --> 00:36:33,974 know this transition is gonna happen eventually, but we're gonna sell the 934 00:36:33,974 --> 00:36:36,074 last barrel of oil on the planet because. 935 00:36:36,504 --> 00:36:39,774 we stop burning oil quickly, they're, they're, they're stuffed, you know, I 936 00:36:39,774 --> 00:36:42,504 was about to say, they're toast, but if they keep burning oil, they are toast. 937 00:36:42,802 --> 00:36:47,842 individual countries have been able to stymie to slow down, to throw sand in the 938 00:36:47,842 --> 00:36:49,642 gears of the negotiations, all of that. 939 00:36:49,642 --> 00:36:50,812 It still happens a lot. 940 00:36:50,989 --> 00:36:56,122 Ian: even the, resolutions that are agreed make people pretend to behave. 941 00:36:56,362 --> 00:37:00,952 So even Saudi has a sort of green policy now and talks about building green 942 00:37:00,952 --> 00:37:04,753 cities, which obviously aren't gonna happen, but, uh, it becomes performative 943 00:37:04,753 --> 00:37:06,283 in a sense That's quite useful. 944 00:37:06,332 --> 00:37:10,082 Andy: The weirdly, the innovation behind the Paris agreement, which was in 2015 945 00:37:10,412 --> 00:37:14,762 and which is the most significant of any of these 30 things, was to say 946 00:37:14,792 --> 00:37:16,682 these are now gonna be voluntary. 947 00:37:17,042 --> 00:37:19,742 Instead of everyone arguing, saying, how much are you gonna cut your emissions? 948 00:37:19,922 --> 00:37:23,547 The, the basis of Parises countries come up with an NDC. 949 00:37:24,087 --> 00:37:25,947 A nationally determined contribution. 950 00:37:26,288 --> 00:37:30,088 basically you set a line in the sand of let's say 2050 or 2060, whenever 951 00:37:30,598 --> 00:37:32,038 that is your destination point. 952 00:37:32,188 --> 00:37:34,528 And the way you get there is left up to you. 953 00:37:34,888 --> 00:37:38,668 Now again, voluntary, but there's a lot of evidence that Paris in 954 00:37:38,668 --> 00:37:42,418 particular hugely changed the course of things like Soler power. 955 00:37:42,568 --> 00:37:42,688 Mm-hmm. 956 00:37:42,688 --> 00:37:45,928 You know, in 2015, Soler was 1% of the world's electricity. 957 00:37:45,928 --> 00:37:46,558 It was nothing. 958 00:37:46,558 --> 00:37:48,988 You know, the one in a hundred cars was electric. 959 00:37:49,798 --> 00:37:53,398 Today, I think it's almost 9% of electricity is Soler. 960 00:37:53,578 --> 00:37:55,193 One in five cars Yeah. 961 00:37:55,193 --> 00:37:56,303 Is fully electric, actually. 962 00:37:56,596 --> 00:37:57,826 that has changed things a lot. 963 00:37:57,856 --> 00:38:00,736 It's quite hard to perceive in this absolute mess of, 964 00:38:01,411 --> 00:38:01,471 Ian: you 965 00:38:01,471 --> 00:38:01,531 know, 966 00:38:01,591 --> 00:38:05,341 well when the populous narrative is drill, baby drill, uh, 967 00:38:05,341 --> 00:38:06,661 climate change isn't happening. 968 00:38:06,887 --> 00:38:11,927 I think that floods the media and underneath that isn't the story. 969 00:38:12,129 --> 00:38:15,219 Andy: One of the main things that I think has slowed down America's path 970 00:38:15,219 --> 00:38:18,520 in particular is that, people are not asking for this change to happen. 971 00:38:18,670 --> 00:38:22,510 China has made huge strides, partly because they've had big riots 972 00:38:22,510 --> 00:38:25,060 over things like air quality and the Chinese leadership are quite 973 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,070 nervous of further protest riots. 974 00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:31,210 So they've acted and they've acted partly through, uh, that and partly 975 00:38:31,210 --> 00:38:32,890 through the massive economic opportunity. 976 00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:36,370 You know, if you are producing the thing that powers the world in 50 years time 977 00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:42,010 and you've secured 80% of the supply chain and you make 90% of the panels and you've 978 00:38:42,010 --> 00:38:43,486 got all the critical mineral stitched up, 979 00:38:43,931 --> 00:38:44,781 you're in, you're amazingly 980 00:38:45,556 --> 00:38:48,226 You're, you are in a very good 981 00:38:48,226 --> 00:38:48,676 position. 982 00:38:48,676 --> 00:38:49,096 Green stuff. 983 00:38:49,156 --> 00:38:49,996 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 984 00:38:49,996 --> 00:38:51,826 Whereas in America, there, there simply isn't that. 985 00:38:52,354 --> 00:38:54,957 demand, at enough of a population level, you know? 986 00:38:55,122 --> 00:38:55,292 Helen: Yeah. 987 00:38:55,292 --> 00:38:58,077 It's a shame that Elon Musk's brain melted because actually 988 00:38:58,077 --> 00:38:59,577 he had a Soler energy company. 989 00:38:59,577 --> 00:39:00,567 He had battery works. 990 00:39:00,567 --> 00:39:04,287 He obviously had Tesla making electric cars until he decided 991 00:39:04,287 --> 00:39:05,757 it was all woke nonsense. 992 00:39:05,757 --> 00:39:09,897 And that model that you are talking about, which is, let's tech our way outta this. 993 00:39:09,897 --> 00:39:10,017 he 994 00:39:10,152 --> 00:39:10,197 Andy: He was 995 00:39:10,197 --> 00:39:13,827 a America had a big lead and they absolutely threw it away. 996 00:39:13,947 --> 00:39:17,157 Yeah, and there's a, there's a terrific line of, I think it's Bill McKibben 997 00:39:17,157 --> 00:39:17,997 who writes about this a lot there. 998 00:39:17,997 --> 00:39:20,757 There's a chance that America will become a kind of colonial 999 00:39:20,757 --> 00:39:22,287 Williamsburg of fossil fuels. 1000 00:39:22,287 --> 00:39:22,707 You know, you'll 1001 00:39:22,707 --> 00:39:23,517 go there as a kind of 1002 00:39:23,517 --> 00:39:25,227 quaint, oh my God, they're still 1003 00:39:25,227 --> 00:39:26,097 doing this. 1004 00:39:26,607 --> 00:39:28,227 When we have something that's four times as efficient. 1005 00:39:28,257 --> 00:39:29,367 How amazing. 1006 00:39:29,427 --> 00:39:29,517 Helen: You 1007 00:39:29,517 --> 00:39:31,857 know, not like they did that with checks where they were the last place 1008 00:39:31,857 --> 00:39:34,797 in the world that was still using checks 20 years after everyone else. 1009 00:39:34,875 --> 00:39:37,545 Andy: So the process is ongoing at the moment, the, the, the cop is 1010 00:39:37,545 --> 00:39:39,765 happening and, you know, we will see what's produced at the end. 1011 00:39:39,765 --> 00:39:42,615 But this, this idea that there's gonna be a single document at the end of 1012 00:39:42,615 --> 00:39:46,545 it, that it, that magically helps, I think is becoming more old fashioned. 1013 00:39:46,545 --> 00:39:50,415 And I think lots of, lots of voices are starting to say, this isn't working. 1014 00:39:50,677 --> 00:39:52,237 We need to find other ways forward, 1015 00:39:52,312 --> 00:39:58,102 Ian: do they have any effect encountering the populist view that you go as far as 1016 00:39:58,102 --> 00:40:03,532 you can towards saying it's all nonsense without quite making yourself look an 1017 00:40:03,984 --> 00:40:06,594 Adam: well, the argument now is, obviously I'm not a climate deni, but I don't think 1018 00:40:06,594 --> 00:40:08,034 we should spend any money whatsoever on 1019 00:40:09,714 --> 00:40:12,339 Andy: it's that, I mean the reform line is, well, we're not climate 1020 00:40:12,339 --> 00:40:14,319 deniers, but there's nothing we can do about it, you know? 1021 00:40:14,618 --> 00:40:19,052 I think the places where it's proving a persuasive argument to, to adopt this 1022 00:40:19,112 --> 00:40:22,982 new stuff, whether it's Soler or wind, whatever, is where people are looking 1023 00:40:22,982 --> 00:40:24,782 at their bills for the next 50 years. 1024 00:40:24,782 --> 00:40:27,062 So, you know, Ethiopia has, a couple of years ago, banned 1025 00:40:27,062 --> 00:40:28,772 the import of petrol cars, 1026 00:40:28,847 --> 00:40:30,587 Helen: Kenya's banned, banned plastic bags. 1027 00:40:30,587 --> 00:40:31,127 I mean, they've, some 1028 00:40:31,127 --> 00:40:31,307 of the 1029 00:40:31,397 --> 00:40:31,967 African countries 1030 00:40:31,967 --> 00:40:32,057 have 1031 00:40:32,057 --> 00:40:34,817 just done quite big Yeah, Ballsy things. 1032 00:40:34,817 --> 00:40:37,187 But you are right, in a way, they don't have to make an argument in the sense 1033 00:40:37,187 --> 00:40:39,977 that people looked at the prices of electric cars and how much they would 1034 00:40:39,977 --> 00:40:43,307 cost to run, and the fact there was now infrastructure to run them and they 1035 00:40:43,307 --> 00:40:46,787 went, well, I don't, this isn't making a statement about me or my values. 1036 00:40:46,787 --> 00:40:49,007 It's just that's, that's a very good value car. 1037 00:40:49,037 --> 00:40:49,577 Andy: Yeah, yeah. 1038 00:40:49,577 --> 00:40:49,787 Yeah. 1039 00:40:49,787 --> 00:40:50,807 And that's why Ethiopia did it. 1040 00:40:50,807 --> 00:40:52,727 You know, they were spending a lot on importing oil. 1041 00:40:52,817 --> 00:40:55,367 I mean, most of the countries in the world import rather than export oil. 1042 00:40:55,427 --> 00:40:58,834 I, it's part of the reason China's doing all this is they, only produce, I 1043 00:40:58,834 --> 00:41:00,244 think about a quarter of their own oil. 1044 00:41:00,604 --> 00:41:02,944 So they would really like to find a way forward, which doesn't 1045 00:41:02,944 --> 00:41:06,904 involve being incredibly reliant on the world's oil market. 1046 00:41:07,264 --> 00:41:10,354 And it's weird that, because we talked about the Saudis earlier, even they have, 1047 00:41:10,354 --> 00:41:13,864 announced big, new Soler developments that I think actually will happen unlike the a 1048 00:41:14,314 --> 00:41:16,564 hundred mile long city in the desert that 1049 00:41:17,019 --> 00:41:17,439 Ian: Nessun, 1050 00:41:17,974 --> 00:41:18,424 Andy: I know. 1051 00:41:18,604 --> 00:41:18,724 Helen: Yeah. 1052 00:41:18,724 --> 00:41:21,244 But it's currently 38 degrees and sunny over, over there in 1053 00:41:21,279 --> 00:41:21,439 Adam: Saudi. 1054 00:41:21,439 --> 00:41:21,769 Yeah, I was gonna 1055 00:41:21,769 --> 00:41:21,919 say, 1056 00:41:21,919 --> 00:41:22,549 that's the other thing. 1057 00:41:22,549 --> 00:41:23,299 They've got quite a lot 1058 00:41:23,299 --> 00:41:24,049 of, as well as oil, 1059 00:41:24,289 --> 00:41:24,769 oil down 1060 00:41:24,769 --> 00:41:24,979 there, 1061 00:41:24,994 --> 00:41:25,294 Andy: sun 1062 00:41:25,294 --> 00:41:25,414 up 1063 00:41:25,414 --> 00:41:26,254 there, Absolutely. 1064 00:41:26,259 --> 00:41:26,429 Yeah. 1065 00:41:26,429 --> 00:41:26,854 Yeah, yeah. 1066 00:41:27,272 --> 00:41:30,721 . I think they want to get 50% of their power through Soler by 2030, 1067 00:41:31,021 --> 00:41:32,431 which again is extremely rapid. 1068 00:41:32,431 --> 00:41:33,391 So there are 1069 00:41:33,399 --> 00:41:33,541 Helen: these 1070 00:41:33,631 --> 00:41:35,731 but presumably then they could then sell all of their oil to other 1071 00:41:35,731 --> 00:41:36,121 people. 1072 00:41:36,121 --> 00:41:36,301 Right? 1073 00:41:36,301 --> 00:41:38,821 If you can produce it domestically and export internationally, 1074 00:41:38,821 --> 00:41:40,261 that works as an economic model. 1075 00:41:40,261 --> 00:41:40,471 That's 1076 00:41:41,397 --> 00:41:42,612 Andy: The, the Norwegian model, 1077 00:41:42,672 --> 00:41:42,912 Helen: as I 1078 00:41:42,912 --> 00:41:43,212 believe 1079 00:41:43,212 --> 00:41:43,332 it's 1080 00:41:43,332 --> 00:41:44,202 known, Yeah, right. 1081 00:41:44,232 --> 00:41:45,342 Andy: Norway does a great deal of that. 1082 00:41:45,521 --> 00:41:48,406 and they just want to keep selling until they can sell no more. 1083 00:41:48,986 --> 00:41:52,074 Ian: But your point, climate change means increased immigration, 1084 00:41:52,794 --> 00:41:53,394 um Oh yeah. 1085 00:41:53,514 --> 00:41:55,225 From countries that are getting too hot. 1086 00:41:55,534 --> 00:41:59,201 that level of self-interest surely should register, with 1087 00:41:59,291 --> 00:42:01,841 some of the larger blocks at 1088 00:42:02,126 --> 00:42:04,539 Andy: COP back to the whole sort of Soler nationalism thing. 1089 00:42:04,539 --> 00:42:07,089 Good old fashioned British sunshine hitting good old fashioned British 1090 00:42:07,089 --> 00:42:08,739 land, it hasn't quite taken off. 1091 00:42:08,739 --> 00:42:11,169 You know, the reform attitude is very much, we don't want 1092 00:42:11,169 --> 00:42:13,059 any large Soler developments. 1093 00:42:13,572 --> 00:42:16,302 they've claimed a lot of their efficiency savings in the councils. 1094 00:42:16,302 --> 00:42:19,662 They run through things like cutting electric car, charging schemes and, 1095 00:42:19,759 --> 00:42:24,079 I don't think there's a bright green bit of the reform movement yet. 1096 00:42:24,349 --> 00:42:28,639 Helen: as a result of watching Cop, have you become more or less optimistic? 1097 00:42:29,375 --> 00:42:29,539 cop, 1098 00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:29,839 Yeah. 1099 00:42:30,349 --> 00:42:30,679 let's play 1100 00:42:30,704 --> 00:42:30,864 Andy: good 1101 00:42:30,864 --> 00:42:31,064 cop 1102 00:42:31,064 --> 00:42:31,384 bad cop. 1103 00:42:31,819 --> 00:42:31,939 Adam: We 1104 00:42:31,939 --> 00:42:33,469 have to go for that headline. 1105 00:42:33,619 --> 00:42:34,519 That's why they call it cop. 1106 00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:34,759 Really? 1107 00:42:34,819 --> 00:42:34,909 Andy: Cop. 1108 00:42:34,909 --> 00:42:35,059 we 1109 00:42:35,089 --> 00:42:36,979 Adam: do that headline and they could say cop out as 1110 00:42:36,979 --> 00:42:37,249 well. 1111 00:42:37,309 --> 00:42:38,749 Oh, when people don't agree something. 1112 00:42:38,749 --> 00:42:39,049 Yeah. 1113 00:42:39,184 --> 00:42:39,564 Say cop. 1114 00:42:39,619 --> 00:42:41,269 It's a subeditors title, isn't it? 1115 00:42:41,419 --> 00:42:42,109 Helen: Up to a Point Or 1116 00:42:42,379 --> 00:42:42,429 Adam: Cop. 1117 00:42:42,568 --> 00:42:45,418 Andy: it's really hard to say because it's such a huge thing. 1118 00:42:45,478 --> 00:42:48,448 I mean, it's, it is amazing that you're getting 190 odd countries 1119 00:42:48,598 --> 00:42:51,298 saying, right, we're gonna try and regulate the temperature of the planet. 1120 00:42:52,074 --> 00:42:54,354 we've been kind of in essay crisis mode for a long time saying, look, 1121 00:42:54,354 --> 00:42:58,014 if we're gonna keep the rise to 1.5 degrees, we're gonna have to cut by, 1122 00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:01,464 oh gosh, 40% of our emissions by 2035. 1123 00:43:01,674 --> 00:43:02,574 And then we don't do it. 1124 00:43:03,024 --> 00:43:06,954 And then we say, oh, well we, right now I think we've gotta cut 45% by 2030. 1125 00:43:07,584 --> 00:43:11,214 And you start to realize in true essay crisis mode, this is not gonna happen. 1126 00:43:12,144 --> 00:43:13,469 No, that, that is pretty much baked in. 1127 00:43:13,469 --> 00:43:15,804 I think we've got about four years of current emissions before 1.5 1128 00:43:15,804 --> 00:43:17,724 is, is pretty well nailed on. 1129 00:43:18,934 --> 00:43:23,959 But when Paris was passed 10, 10 years ago, there simply wasn't 1130 00:43:23,959 --> 00:43:28,249 the infrastructure to build six or 700 gigawatts of Soler energy 1131 00:43:28,249 --> 00:43:29,659 a year, which is what we have now. 1132 00:43:29,659 --> 00:43:32,299 One gigawatt is roughly a, a coal fired power plant. 1133 00:43:32,359 --> 00:43:33,859 You know, it's, it's pretty big. 1134 00:43:34,144 --> 00:43:34,444 Adam: Hmm. 1135 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,569 Andy: And back in 2004, it took a year to install one gigawatt of Soler. 1136 00:43:38,749 --> 00:43:39,539 It now takes about a day. 1137 00:43:40,696 --> 00:43:43,426 There are now entire days where I think we're installing two 1138 00:43:43,426 --> 00:43:45,016 gigawatts of power globally. 1139 00:43:45,376 --> 00:43:49,276 So as long as renewable keeps outpacing the rise in energy demand, 1140 00:43:49,426 --> 00:43:52,276 as long as clean energy keeps outpacing the rise, you will just 1141 00:43:52,276 --> 00:43:53,656 see fossils forced off the system. 1142 00:43:53,986 --> 00:43:55,546 It won't be in time for 1.5. 1143 00:43:55,666 --> 00:43:59,446 This the seems to be the consensus that's emerging, but it could probably 1144 00:43:59,446 --> 00:44:03,556 be in time for two, two degrees of warming if you keep things rising. 1145 00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:06,316 So I think that's the bit that does provide the optimism. 1146 00:44:06,436 --> 00:44:06,796 Helen: Yeah. 1147 00:44:06,796 --> 00:44:07,936 I think that's very optimistic. 1148 00:44:07,936 --> 00:44:11,086 I mean, also the fact that Gavin Newsom governor of California was there. 1149 00:44:11,086 --> 00:44:15,616 Obviously the Trump administration didn't send anyone, but he as the, uh, governor 1150 00:44:15,616 --> 00:44:18,766 of whatever it is, the fifth largest economy in the world, and the place 1151 00:44:18,766 --> 00:44:24,616 that is home to lots of this technology went along and met people that if there 1152 00:44:24,616 --> 00:44:30,856 is a non-Trump president in the White House after the 2028 election, again, 1153 00:44:30,856 --> 00:44:34,546 that might be something that begin that that tech our way out of its solution 1154 00:44:34,666 --> 00:44:36,740 begins to look more plausible again. 1155 00:44:36,875 --> 00:44:39,640 I, I, I think two degrees sounds terrifying and I'm sure will 1156 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,880 involve a lot of human misery, but it does also sound less terrifying 1157 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,790 than Four Degrees, which is broil 1158 00:44:46,060 --> 00:44:46,870 Andy: Absolutely. 1159 00:44:46,870 --> 00:44:47,005 Broil 1160 00:44:47,050 --> 00:44:47,560 Helen: territory. 1161 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:47,650 Yes. 1162 00:44:47,830 --> 00:44:51,250 Andy: Let's, can we, let's try and set it for simmer, uh, not broil. 1163 00:44:51,255 --> 00:44:54,430 What, what an optimistic message to end on, you know? 1164 00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:57,961 Can I say, Helen, you've had an amazing number of baking, analogies 1165 00:44:57,961 --> 00:45:00,241 all the way through the show today, and what is on your mind? 1166 00:45:00,661 --> 00:45:03,661 We've had, what were these policies baked in by Shaban Mood or 1167 00:45:03,721 --> 00:45:03,901 Ian: by 1168 00:45:03,901 --> 00:45:04,501 Vancouver 1169 00:45:04,591 --> 00:45:04,861 Andy: we had, 1170 00:45:05,131 --> 00:45:05,941 Helen: you know, you know, fine. 1171 00:45:05,941 --> 00:45:08,401 Well, it's because you made an amazing cake this morning, of which 1172 00:45:08,401 --> 00:45:09,901 I've already had two slices and 1173 00:45:09,901 --> 00:45:11,251 I'm just thinking, can I go. 1174 00:45:11,251 --> 00:45:11,581 back to the 1175 00:45:11,581 --> 00:45:11,851 office 1176 00:45:11,851 --> 00:45:12,181 and have a 1177 00:45:12,181 --> 00:45:14,251 third or is that 1178 00:45:15,344 --> 00:45:15,756 Andy: Alright. 1179 00:45:15,871 --> 00:45:19,561 The, uh, the private eye bake off will be taking place later in the year. 1180 00:45:19,591 --> 00:45:21,241 Uh, back your horse now. 1181 00:45:21,564 --> 00:45:22,653 Thank you so much for listening. 1182 00:45:22,653 --> 00:45:25,113 Thank you to Ian, Helen, and Adam for coming and playing. 1183 00:45:25,383 --> 00:45:28,023 Uh, and we'll be back again in a fortnight with another of these. 1184 00:45:28,353 --> 00:45:29,373 Uh, before then. 1185 00:45:29,373 --> 00:45:32,373 If you like private eye, just go into your nearest news agent and buy one. 1186 00:45:32,433 --> 00:45:35,133 Or if you've already bought one and you think, oh, I'd love to 1187 00:45:35,133 --> 00:45:40,203 get this delivered to me, get a subscription@privatehypheni.co uk. 1188 00:45:40,563 --> 00:45:41,103 That's all for now. 1189 00:45:41,103 --> 00:45:43,983 The only remaining thanks is to Matt Hill of Rethink Audio for producing. 1190 00:45:44,163 --> 00:45:44,673 Bye for now.