>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and, where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I, meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known. We'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. Today, I'm speaking to Reverend

Jonathan Aitken remotely about his experience in

prison.

Reverend Jonathan is a former MP. He went to

prison for 18 months of perjury, and since

release, after 15 years, he became an ordained

minister. During the conversation with him, Rev.

Jonathan shared how God showed up for him in

prison and has continued to since. It reminded me

of God's faithfulness. So, Reverend Jonathan, how

does someone go from being an MP to being in

prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Well, it was a dramatic fall from grace. It was

entirely my mistake, entirely my own failings.

Basically where I got into trouble. I told a lie

on oath in the course of a libel case. And telling

a liar on oath is a crime. It's perjury. And

perjury is a rather rare prosecution. But if

people are gunning for you, and quite a few people

were, they can bring it to the attention of the

prosecutors and they certainly did in my case. So

I was prosecuted for perjury. I pleaded guilty

almost immediately and that was what I was,

sentenced to 18 months in prison before. So that

was perjury. It was my crime. But it was really

all kinds of deeper flaws in the character which

got me into the mess in which perjury took place.

>> Julia: So what was going through your mind when you

realised you were going to prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: I think first of all a great sadness, because I

realised that my life as I had known it up to that

point, which was really the life of being a

relatively successful politician, out there, ah,

in the public square, a lot of media work, a lot

of rating in the House of Commons, cabinet

minister, all these high level things, and they

were all coming to an end and maybe never had any

other door opening. So I think I Was number one,

sad. Sad is probably an underestimated word.

Shattered, more like it. But I quite quickly, in a

sense, got over the feeling of extreme, sadness

and depression. But life was going to change.

Obviously. The first change was, I'm going to go

lose my freedom and go to prison. The second and

most unlikely change is that after I came out of

prison, I took a new career movement, went to the

only place in the country which had worse food

than a prison, more uncomfortable beds than a

prison. And this was an Anglican theological

college called Wickliffe Hall, Oxford. And I was

in there rather longer sentence, although I

didn't, of course, regard it as a sentence. I

regard it as a great joy. And I spent, two and a

half years there, studying, getting passing exams,

getting degrees and so on. And that was a great

joy. So life changed in a big way.

>> Julia: And how did you prepare for going to prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Well, I actually was prepared with remarkable

thoroughness. There's an old military maxim, time

spent in reconnaissance is never wasted. And I had

no idea what to expect, except to expect it would

be fairly unpleasant and nasty and difficult. But

the one thing I did do was to make great efforts

to find anybody who knew anything about prison. Ex

prisoners, 12 prison officers, prison governor,

prison, chaplain. I saw them all. I had a very

long wait. so I just saw a lot of people. So I

really did know quite a lot about what to expect.

Even so, there were plenty of surprises and

shocks, but I wasn't, unprepared. I was. And I

listened to a lot of good advice about how to

handle oneself in prison, of which perhaps the

best advice was, you know, don't be a tall poppy.

Don't show off, don't give yourself any airs and

graces. You may have been somebody high up once,

but now you're down with all other prisoners. All

men are equal in a prison uniform and go with the

flow and go with the level and the atmosphere of

the prison. And that's what I did, and it was good

advice.

>> Julia: And how was your first night in prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: The first night was full of surprises, some of

them pleasant in the sense that on the whole, the

prison staff and the people there were courteous

and did all their jobs, not necessarily agreeably,

but professionally and well. And I didn't feel in

any danger. I got a bit surprised by prison

language, which is a new subject. But there's an

awful lot in Belmarsh, at least, sort of, east

north London rhyming slang. And, I remember being

astonished when somebody yelled at me. Whatever

you do, take the cucumbers, Take the cucumbers. I

had no idea what he was talking about at all. And

that was an opportunity, in prison rhyming slang,

to take the numbers. And taking the numbers means

going into solitary confinement or a vulnerable

prisoner's wing for your own protection. And

usually it's sex offenders do that. It's usually

police officer. But my informant clearly thought

any passing cabinet minister would be wise to take

the numbers or the cucumbers. Anyway, once you get

through a certain amount of translation

difficulties, on the whole, I was fine on my first

night until I got to my cell late at night. And,

there was a tremendous amount of chanting and I

suddenly realised the chanting was all about me.

And the gist of the chanting, which I won't repeat

on your polite, programme, was that exclusive

delete of Aitken has now arrived in Belmarsh

Prison while he's on wing, so and so cell number

sensor. tomorrow morning, lads, let's show him.

And then more exclusive deleters and show him what

we think of Tory cavdemas. And this was rather

frightening. at first, what I did not know, and I

now do know, is that Belmarsh Prison, then and

now, as far as I know, is at, night, very often

fueled by drug taking. A lot of hysterical but

meaningless and therefore harmless chanting and

threatening. And it doesn't sort of mean what it

sounds like, but it sounded rather bad at the

time. So I had alarming. Then I fell into a deep

sleep and it was fine.

>> Julia: So how did you cope with the reality of prison

life, then?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Well, I'd had a lot of good advice about keeping

my head down, not giving myself any as and grace.

So I was very cautious at first. but I had a bit

of luck quite early on when a young prisoner came

up to me and said in a conspiratorial whisper,

hey, I've got a problem. I can't read this letter

I've had from my brief lawyer. Could you read it

to me? And I read it to him and unfortunately, it

was a notice to quit, really a notice of eviction.

He had to get out of his flat and it was a very

big blow to him. But he then said, what shall I do

as I read it? And as it happens, considering he

was asking quite a technical question, he couldn't

have come to a better source of advice,

considering we were both in Belmarsh Prison,

because I had been doing eviction cases for years

and years as a backbench mp. So I told him these

tricks of the trade you might call them, and he

was incredibly grateful. And then he's felt, he

said, all you have to do is just say these things

in a letter back to the council and they will not,

I think, press for your eviction. And his face

then fell and he said, I've got another problem. I

don't do no reading nor no writing neither. And

then he said, could you write the letter for me?

So I said sure. So I wrote their letter of appeal

saying why he should not be evicted. And he then

did something rather strange at the same time.

Instead of expected things like putting the letter

that I'd just written for him in his pocket or

putting it in the letterbox instead, he turned

himself into an 18th century town crier. And

holding the leper aloft, he went down the wing

shouting at the top of his voice, hey guys, this

MP geezer of ours, he's got fantastic joined up

writing. And so this tribute to my graphological

skills fell on the ear of a pretty receptive

audience because lots of people in prison have

inadequate literacy skills. So when it became

known that a fellow prisoner would be willing to

read letters or right letters fallen, I had a cues

formed every night I, outside my cell door, pure

wanting help with correspondence. And actually

that did me good. Instead of being the enemy Tory

cabinet minister. Oh, he's not a bad geezer. Help

me with my lessons and so on. So, I fitted in

fairly quickly and fairly easily to the community

with the wing. I didn't find it that difficult.

>> Julia: And what role did faith play during your time

behind bars?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: A very strong role. And it grew while I was behind

bars. I think before getting into trouble with

perjury, I had been a half Christian, which I now

know is about as useful as being half pregnant.

But at the time alcohol was fine just to go to

church every so often and then perhaps break all

the rules obviously coming out of the church. but

while in prison I had some very good spiritual

mentors, chaplains, friends from outside and above

all a prayer group, which was started by a friend

of mine, an Irishman, called Patrick Doyle. And he

got this prayer group which became a big feature

of my life in prison and I was also helped by

chaplains. So ah, while in prison, my prayer life

deepened and my faith grew. I'll always be

grateful for that.

>> Julia: And can you tell us about the prison prayer group

and what did that mean to you?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Well, the prison prayer group which was self

starting it was started by Paddy, his fellow

prisoner. And, I was not the leader of it. I was

in some ways its greatest beneficiary. Because of

all that time in prison, we were better at meeting

frequently than most prayer groups in the outside

world. Used to meet every night, pretty well. And

we, were sort of fairly unstructured. people

addressed God in all kinds of ways. Some paid to

God the Father, which is a phrase which means much

more to prison because so many people then have

really never had a father or don't know who their

father was. So when they're praying to a rock of

paternal trust, it, perhaps means more than it

does when it slips off the tongue so easily among

people in civilian life. And then, a lot of people

prayed, of course, to Jesus. The qualities that

Jesus has. Healing, mercy, forgiveness of sinners.

And then in quite a few very prayed the Holy

Spirit, that m mysterious third person of God who

will empower us to clean up our often messy lives

in which we can't clean up easily in ourselves.

And certainly you need the power of the Holy

Spirit to stop taking drugs, for example. So I

found the openness of the Pilsner prayer group,

the willingness to, let it all hang out, as they

say, and then to pray together. It was pretty

powerful stuff.

>> Julia: It's really interesting what you said about when

we have that idea of God the Father that for some

people that is really easy to relate to and for

others that makes it more difficult depending on

their own relationship with their Father. I found

that just in conversations I've had with people.

But what did you learn about God in prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: I think the biggest thing I learned was power of

prayer. First of all, monks long for centuries,

said that cells are good places to pray and monks

live in cells, prisoners live in cells. And that

confined space and its walls has, I think, a power

of its own because you are feeling of being alone

with God. And I think, the stillness and the

silence of cell life is very conducive to prayer.

Secondly, it's also conducive to prayer

discipline. I used to find difficulty in having a

disciplined, day in prison because there's so much

time just wasted. But if you were to set your

clock, you say, I will pray at 8 o' clock in the

morning. I'll, pray again at 6:30 in the evening

or whatever it is. And you have a sort of

schedule. Then you go through various kinds of

prayers. a familiar one which I use in many

movies. It's called the ACTS formula. ACTS

Adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication,

and I personally filled notebooks with, prayer

requests and prayer thanks and so on. So, having

been a very busy person all my life, suddenly in

prison I was not a busy person at all. I got lots

of time on my hand at, prison life and still

guides my prayer life to this day.

>> Julia: It's really interesting to say that because when

prisons were first set up, the idea was that they

were there for people to have penance. So I was

just thinking about how it's been nearly 30 years

since you were in prison and how different the

prison system is now to then. do you think there's

still a place in prison now for people to find God

there?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Yes, there is definitely. And people do. I'm a

prison chaplain now, so I hope I help people to

find God. What's more difficult, I think, is that

the overcrowding has gone up and therefore

everything connected with what should be the

peace, and calm of a spiritual life is just more

difficult. but that said, we still have prayer

groups, we still have Bible study groups, we have

chaplains who go all over the prison, as I do,

often one on one sessions with prisoners in

prayer. So the work of God goes on. it's just more

difficult, I think, than it was. And that's

because of less prisons, more prisoners, more

overcrowding, more violence, a lot of problems

which are in the newspapers from day to day. And,

I hope those who govern us are giving some serious

thought to how they might improve the prison

system.

>> Julia: How did it feel when you left prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Actually, I was more nervous, than at any other

time almost. And I often say to people, coming out

of prison is harder than going into prison. Why?

Because once you're inside, life runs on a sort of

railway line of times and places and events which

you just have to go with the flow. There is no

room for any initiatives when you're going back

into the life. I think you have to worry about how

well anybody from your family to your friends will

perceive you. You have to worry about where you're

going to live, how you're going to live, whether

you're going to get a job. All these things are,

worrying. And then there are technicalities like

being on licence and cooperating with probation

and so on. So I think the first few weeks of

coming out of prison are difficult and finding

your feet. And I think everybody should recognise

that. And not enough do they think it's a great

celebration coming out of prison, they start to

get into bad Company. Drink too much. Unwise thing

to do.

>> Julia: I've heard also that when you're in prison, you

can have a sense of community because you're with

people maybe in different cells and stuff, but

you've got that sense of being, being in the same

place. And as you said earlier, you're kind of all

on the same level. But then when you come out of

prison, that form of community gets lost. Was

there a stigma when you came out of prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Yes, I think there definitely was. I mean, I was

very well publicised over publicised prisoner. And

the, tabloids were always taking photographs of me

going shopping. So I felt a sort of quite a

crushing sort of sense of rather disapproving

vigilance. But, you get used to it and life moves

on. But there were bad moments. I remember, for

example, being on an escalator on the London

Underground and it was a very long escalator and I

was going up it and there was for some reason a

very aggressive, hostile man who suddenly started

shouting, pointing at me and shouting, look at

that crook there, look at that crook. But that was

a disturbing little episode and I felt very sort

of wounded by it at the time. but, life goes on

and there are many blessings. Lots of friends who

rally around, they were. Had a good family. and so

one way or another, it was not a bad experience.

But there were some bumpy moments coming out.

>> Julia: And how did you go from prison to being ordained?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: It was a very long and complicated journey. First

of all, while in prison, I did become very

interested in the spiritual life in God. And so I

made this rather extraordinary decision to go from

prison to the one place in Britain which had worse

food and, ah, more incumbent beds in the prison.

And this was an Anglican theological college,

Wickley Fall. It couldn't have been a nicer place.

I was there for two and a half years. I studied, I

passed exams, I took part in chapel. Life went on

missions. Wonderful teachers like Michael green

and Alistair McGrath and others, Graham Tomlin.

And so I really felt very nurtured in the

spiritual life, in theology, through the exams I

was passing. I had to pass exams in Greek, I had

to learn Hebrew, the psalms. It was hard work, but

I thoroughly enjoyed it and appreciated it. Most

of the people who had weekly falls that time, we

were about 100 of us, but about 90 of them were

all going to be vicars, or if not vicars,

missionaries or something like that. And I wasn't.

So I actually did not get ordained until another

15 years after I left Wycliffe. It was a long,

long gap. Why did I become ordained? Because I

felt very powerfully that God was calling me. And,

I try in my prayers to say, dear God, is there

anything more you'd like me to do? I'm thinking

you might say, well, I think you should read the

book of Exodus more often, or you should, do

something rather in church more often. Instead of.

This particular voice seemed to have said, I want

you to be one of my priests. And I was startled by

this. And I said, by way of response, more or

less, God, if it's you talking, please shut up.

Please don't say that again. I would be a very,

very bad vicar. but the voice went on muttering

and disturbing me. And then after about a year,

the voice slightly changed and said, I meant that

I wanted to be a prison chaplain. An ordained

priest and a prison chaplain. Now, that was

something. I think I would not be a good parish

priest or vicar. But I thought prison service, I

didn't know more about. I'd been doing what's

called prison ministry. Anyway. I'd, been a

prisoner, and I knew they were short in the. The

prison service of ordained, priests who are

chaplains. So then I did contact my area bishop

and did put myself forward for consideration and

was very quickly accepted. I mean, I was qualified

theologically, having passed all these exams a

long time ago. And I had something to do inside of

prison. And I have loved, being a prison chaplain.

It's a real vocation. It's a very much needed form

of Christian ministry. And I love doing it. And

also, I don't neglect. Not just in prison. I do a

lot of stuff, people who come out of prison.

>> Julia: And it's really interesting how God used your

experience for your ministry. And I was just

thinking also about how you spend that time not

wanting to be ordained, because if you had come

out and got ordained straight away, I imagine with

all of the restrictions, you wouldn't have been

allowed to go and do prison ministry straight

away. But it was only because you had that time

away that you. You then were accepted and able to

do it so willingly and so well to support people

who have been in a similar situation as you.

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Yes, I think that is true. I wasn't really

conscious of that. There's an old hymn which goes,

God moves in mysterious ways his wonders to

perform. And I certainly think he did it with me.

I never in all my wildest dreams, ever expected to

be an ordained priest or prison chaplain. and

you're absolutely Right. The timing was not my

timing, it was God's timing. so I have to thank

him entirely. all I knew was I did not want to be

ordained and I think probably if I tried to get

ordained much sooner for one reason or other, it

wouldn't have happened. But as it has the timing.

Right.

>> Julia: So what advice would you give to someone who has a

loved one in prison?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: I think the important thing to realise is the one

in prison, despite a certain amount of bravado,

will be feeling pretty fragile and therefore the

more reassurance he gets that he's loved, he's

prayed for, he's cared for. That is a great, great

boost to a prisoner's well being and morale and

spiritual strength. So show your love by good and

frequent communication. I need to be number one.

Number two maybe should come. Number one is of

course pray for him and pray for his fellow

prisoners. I'm really quite constantly amazed how

our prisoners do not usually boil over with

violence and with all kinds of difficulties. And I

think the prayer of people outside prison maybe

one of the features that keeps prisons bad though

they are at the moment, that it keeps them, that's

bearable. So I think good communication and good

prayer, that would be my two priorities.

>> Julia: And what support can people give to people as they

leave prison as well?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Well one of the greatest weaknesses of our entire

system is that on the whole there isn't much

support available. Many a prisoner just reaches

his release date and is almost sort of bumps out

on the street. With a very modest travel grant I

think is of the order of 48 pounds and a rail

ticket home. Anyone willing to help any

organisation, ultimately good ones, which meets at

the gate. It's a rather specialised ministry. Also

I think prisoners, when they come out of jail they

are emotionally quite wobbly and they're also

emotionally a bit volatile. I think a special kind

of person who understands that prisoners need just

to calm down and get slowly back to normal. and

word of kindness and cupidity can go a very long

way to restoring a prisoner's morale. and of

course employers, jobs for prisoners are difficult

to come back and yet more and more employers are

finding them. Prisoners do make good employees,

very often very loyal, very hardworking. but this

is a neglected field post release care. It's a big

area of darkness in our system at the moment.

>> Julia: Yeah, I was just thinking about that too.

Especially if you're coming out of prison and as I

said earlier you've had that sense of Community,

and you might have found your faith or you might

have gained your faith, then you're coming out of

prison and you might not know where to turn or

where to go to, and get that support. Have you got

any advice for people in terms of that, if they're

coming out of prison, how churches can be more

welcoming?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: I think churches all should think about having a

prisoner rehabilitation ministry. And they're

often pretty reluctant to do that. And, they worry

that maybe the prisoner will behave badly. they

worry maybe these prisoners will be sex offenders.

In fact, they're almost always very carefully

monitored and watched. So I think that's a big

contrast with American churches. Almost every

American church, church has a dimension of

prisoner support. Very few do in the uk. There are

some that I think, just quietly saying any

prisoner comes out of prison would be welcome here

and just blend away in the congregation. They

didn't get special attention, but it's a bit of a

gap in the church welcoming system. We welcome

almost everybody, but, not many churches which

have welcomed ex prisoners in their DNA.

>> Julia: And it's literally what Jesus said to do, right in

Matthew, visiting those in prison.

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: She has a rather frightening passage called the

sheep and the goats. He said very clearly, where

were you when I was in prison? Did you visit me?

No. It was the answer. And so he encouraged. And

Jesus, who was disciples, were often prisoners.

And he himself was. On the night of the

crucifixion, he was a prisoner too. There's no

doubt that he had a feeling of rapport. Prisoners.

>> Julia: What do you wish you knew about God, grace and

humility before all of this happened?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: Well, I'd heard many a sermon and read many a book

about, grace. But of course, you don't practically

experience grace until you receive it. And the

wonderful thing about grace is that it's almost a

word with a stoop in it. Jesus is sort of stooping

down to save, in Newton's great words, a wretch

like me. And his grace is limitless. His grace is

overwhelmingly generous. So I wish I'd known more,

about God's grace on humility. I think it was

singularly lacking in my life. If you're a

successful person or think of yourself as a

successful person, humility is not high on your

list of qualities. And arrogance very often is

rather high and pride is rather high. So, I wish.

I'm not sure I really knew much about the subject

of humility, let alone practising it. So I think

that's one of the things I hope I've learned as

the years have rolled by.

>> Julia: So what are you grateful for?

>> Reverend Jonathan Aitken: My gratitude list would last for the next hour, if

I was to run through it. But I think, if I just

tricked it down to two words, I would say knowing

and loving God as a bit of one of the letters to

Peter, when Peter says, to your faith, add

goodness to goodness, knowledge and knowing God.

Understanding the boundless spread of God's grace

and God's goodness and God's love. I'd like to get

that across to more and more people. And I myself

would be a huge beneficiary of. I think you

interviewed me, 30 years ago when I was in the

cabin or something. I might not have been as

contented as fulfilled. I hope I'm a bit more

humble as well. But God's grace has been bountiful

to me and can be bountiful to anybody. So I think

I'm grateful for God's love and God's grace.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. This

episode is going to stay with me because it

reminded me of how God uses all of our moments.

And in many ways, he uses our worst moments the

most. How about you? We'd love to hear how

Reverend Jonathan's story resonated with you. And

why not also tell us if you're facing an

experience you wish you knew how to look at

differently. It might just be something we can

help with. You can find out more about this and

other themes at thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again

for listening. I hope you'll join me again next

time on Things I Wish I Knew.