00:00:05.23
alexei sayle
Hello everybody, welcome to episode 105 of the Alexis L podcast. Now I have previously said that if I ever went on Celebrity Mastermind, my specialist um questions would be ah firstly the Sword of Honor novels of Evelyn Ward, Sword of Honor trilogy, and then if I made it through to the next round, Weapons of World War i But I realized that the other area of obsession that i have and have had for
00:00:36.18
alexei sayle
I think certainly since lockdown and probably before, is corruption in the Labour Party. So if I was going to go on Celebrity Mastermind, i would ah my first topic now would be ah corruption within the right wing of the Labour Party. That would be my specialist subject. So therefore, this is a book that I have been anticipating for a very long time. i think it's been quite a long time coming. It is Paul Holden's The Fraud, and I am very excited to have Paul Holden with me today. Hi, Paul.
00:01:09.86
Paul H
Hi, thanks for having me.
00:01:11.83
alexei sayle
Well, it's a it's a pleasure. si This is more exciting than if I had Kenny Dalgleish on or, um i you know, Tupac Chappell. The late Tupac Chappell. It's more exciting for me personally to have you on. Um...
00:01:30.46
alexei sayle
ah as to Tupac Shakur I know who he is fuck off um so Paul tell me really about the um and I know if this book has been in the works for a long time uh just really just give us a rundown know why I guess why you wanted to write it and then uh well who you are you know um and you know how everything tell me everything just everything literally everything
00:01:58.33
Paul H
um tell you everything. A story starts on a dark and stormy night in 1983 in Johannesburg.
00:02:05.13
alexei sayle
in Johannesburg, where I was a driving instructor.
00:02:05.26
Paul H
um
00:02:09.78
Paul H
I mean, so thank you for having me. I'm Paul Holden. um I'm originally from South Africa. um I grew up in Johannesburg. I've been living in the UK for about 15 years now. In that period of time, I've been working as ah as an anti-corruption investigator, investigative journalist, generally focusing on sort of what we'd call grand corruption.
00:02:33.72
Paul H
So looking at sort of very high level political corruption. um i got my start in this work back in 2006, 2007, because um at the time i was investigating this this notoriously corrupt arms deal that South Africa had signed um with BAE Systems and a whole bunch of of European suppliers that ah really massively undermined the post-apartheid democratic order and sort of created the conditions for what eventually became this phenomenon we call state capture in South Africa.
00:03:08.35
Paul H
um and And at that time, i was working, investigating this deal, which implicated all sorts of presidents and and senior figures.
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alexei sayle
This was also the reason that Andrew Feinstein resigned from the ANC government, is it?
00:03:23.42
Paul H
That's right, yeah. So I actually met Andrew Feinstein around about that time in my early 20s, and he was you know I was investigating the deal that he had been trying to investigate in Parliament and been effectively forced out of Parliament and then effectively forced out of South Africa for for investigating.
00:03:24.36
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:03:36.54
alexei sayle
Yeah, and maybe it's interesting, just to sort jump in, I mean, it's interesting that yesterday on our on all our mainstream media, we had this kind of farce where there was a ah committee that said that, a parliamentary committee that said that Britain was literally literally defenseless against an invasion ah from Russia. And then there were some other people who were saying,
00:04:00.18
alexei sayle
Well, I mean, what struck me was some people said, well, well, that's true, but we're dealing with it. But nobody, so everybody talked as if rearmament and the arms industry and was absolutely a good thing.
00:04:13.75
Paul H
Yeah.
00:04:13.98
alexei sayle
Nobody was there on the um on the mainstream media to state, you know, the opposite. that In fact, it was a bad thing. and So I think we're seeing a kind of similar level of state capture in this country, I think, and in Europe in general.
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alexei sayle
Sorry.
00:04:30.23
Paul H
um I definitely think that you know when you know the work that me and Andrew have done, basically I i joined Andrew you know in 2009, 2010, and nine two twenty ten I worked with him on a book called The Shadow World.
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alexei sayle
sorry
00:04:40.12
Paul H
um And ever since then, we've been working on on militarism and state capture and and and the defense sector. I mean, the the defense industry... is, first of all, one of the most corrupt industries in the world, and notorious for its ability to to bribe decision makers in in multiple different countries. There was this phenomenal study that was done ah in the sort of the early 2000s that calculated that that roughly 40% of all corruption in global trade was related to the defense sector. And and then here you have you know an incredibly powerful...
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Paul H
defense lobby, that sort of the self-licking ice cream cone that spends vast amounts of money ah convincing everyone that everything is incredibly dangerous um and that there's a new threat on the horizon.
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alexei sayle
Bye.
00:05:24.74
Paul H
And surprisingly, the new threat on the horizon can be solved with all the old things that we used to buy, still need to buy, which is defense equipment. And and and it you know with with this new government, with the Labour government, they're pushing it an open door because it is now sort of fundamental to the Labour Party's sort of internal thinking, and we can talk about that a bit more, but they've now gotten themselves into this position, they've sort of manufactured this place in their thinking, where they believe that they're going to deliver, the sort of the core feature of the economic growth path is going to be spending money on defence, which is, frankly, from an economic point of view, if you spend any time looking at the economics of defence, just risible, just utterly idiotic and stupid.
00:06:05.02
alexei sayle
yeah ludicrous yeah
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Paul H
ah Because defense spending produces far fewer jobs in other industries. It doesn't really produce any...
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alexei sayle
and it doesn't do any it doesn't yeah you always say if you if you if you make a tractor it plows the land across yeah a fucking i mean the the best case scenario with the tank is it just fucking sits there and rusts you know mean
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Paul H
Mm-hmm.
00:06:25.40
Paul H
okay And it creates condition where you actually, you can, the perverse situation we're in now is that decisions have been made to make us sort of fundamentally more unsafe by directing money away from foreign aid and away from the development budget into military spending.
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alexei sayle
Yeah.
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Paul H
part of the issue we we're dealing with right now ah is, is, is, is instability around the world and caused by those things that the foreign aid budget was helping to ameliorate. um And, you know, it's sort of a,
00:06:59.93
Paul H
It's a dispiriting turn, and it's a dispiriting but not unexpected turn. This is the safe place of the Blairite laborite in the end, which is to basically say, yes, we'll just spend vast amounts of money on defense equipment. That will be delivered late. It'll massively overcast. By the time it's actually delivered, it'll be obsolete.
00:07:18.87
alexei sayle
Yeah, I mean, the new Ajax fighting vehicle has just started to make its way to the army units.
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Paul H
um But I think not good time.
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alexei sayle
It's eight years late, and each unit costs £10 million pounds for a thing. I don't know whether they've solved the problems, but when when it was first tested, it it made everybody inside it throw up because of the vibration, you know.
00:07:40.40
Paul H
Yeah. I mean, it is the defining feature of the arms sector, generally speaking, over-promise and under-deliver and cost everybody an absolute fortune.
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alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:07:52.10
Paul H
And there's no comeuppance for it because you know these are strategic suppliers.
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alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:07:55.98
Paul H
You can't actually find them. You can't you know stop the procurement. And if you do, you know you'll be hammered in the press.
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alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:08:02.82
Paul H
And behind the scenes, they're doing huge amounts to sort of lobby ministers and have sort of massively preferential access at the you know the topmost level. I think there was a study that was done. na na Now I'm pulling stat statistics out of my head, so I might get it fundamentally wrong.
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Paul H
But I remember there was a study that was done a while back that showed, ah it looked at the the number of of lobbying meetings between, i think it was Rishi Sunak and and and and oh all companies and in the UK, and the number one ah company meeting Rishi Sunak in that period was BAE Systems.
00:08:37.75
Paul H
They had the most advanced preferential access to Rishi Sunak.
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alexei sayle
Right.
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Paul H
So they just you know there is this you know there's a revolving door. i mean There's actually this this great report that was done by some of our friends at the campaign against the arms trade, and they said this idea of a revolving door is nonsense.
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Paul H
There's no such thing as a revolving door. What actually you have is is an open plan office between the the defense sector and and government. And there's just people who just sort of cross these boundaries.
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alexei sayle
There.
00:09:05.37
Paul H
They don't really even exist anymore between being in the military, sort of high level in the military, and then going to go work for a defense company and then going to advise the government on buying the defense company's equipment.
00:09:15.64
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:16.25
Paul H
ah None of which, in the end, generally tends to make us any more safer than we were if we just... actually spent the money more wisely on mitigating its climate change in the actual phase.
00:09:22.17
alexei sayle
Of course not, but yeah, makes yeah makes a fucking lot poorer. So then to tell us how this work led you to write this book about the the election of Keir Starmer to the leadership of Labour Party and then his subsequent...
00:09:35.51
Paul H
Sure.
00:09:39.14
Paul H
I mean, so at a personal level, you know, I, you know, I moved to the UK 2009, 2010. Generally speaking, I was a Labour supporter. You know, arrived, even though didn't particularly necessarily like everything they did. You know, voted for Labour Party in the elections when I arrived. You know, voted for Gordon Brown and I voted for Ed Miliband. got more involved when Jeremy Corbyn was elected.
00:10:03.00
Paul H
and And part of the reason I got so involved at the time, or at least more supportive in my own mind, and a bit more aware of what was going on in the party was because actually the, the, the Corbynite surge in the party heralded this like really quite dramatic and interesting change about how they approached to corruption and anti-corruption and tax havens, all these really exciting proposals.
00:10:23.71
Paul H
But in 2021, so I got to know the party bit more. I got a bit more embroiled in it and sort of got a sense of how, and like for a lot of left-wing people, also progressive people had the same experience of,
00:10:36.05
Paul H
thinking, oh, this is an exciting moment. I'm going to i'm going to you know become part of a Labour Party. I'm going to try involve myself. And then suddenly you go to a meeting and you met with the sort of suspicion and hostility.
00:10:43.89
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:10:45.41
Paul H
like This is not what I expected.
00:10:46.74
alexei sayle
yes
00:10:47.01
Paul H
I thought that in the end, we'd all be on the same side. and
00:10:49.75
alexei sayle
I mean, that's the thing that I often talk about is, um, go and, you know, Linda joined the party at the same time as you did. And just the sheer unpleasantness of those right-wing people, uh, and hostility towards the new members.
00:11:04.43
alexei sayle
And of course it was because you were coming in and partly you were coming in and taking over this kind of their fucking, their club, I suppose, their train set.
00:11:15.07
Paul H
Yeah.
00:11:15.97
alexei sayle
But the, rather than having a collegiate and comradely attitude, they, you know, even on the you know the individual level, these people were just repulsively arrogant and unpleasant.
00:11:16.29
Paul H
Hmm.
00:11:29.71
alexei sayle
I remember Linda going to some fundraiser early on with a friend of ours who was... dying of cancer and they wouldn't you know they wouldn't we we sit here that's our seat you know just on that level really of kind of human compassion and uh decency it's completely lacking in those people i think you know
00:11:50.98
Paul H
Yeah. And, you know, the sad reality is is that the The book tells the story about how those people won, really, and the consequences of that, which is that if you're going to look at what you know those branch meetings or whatever, what people go to around the country, were packed with people.
00:11:57.75
alexei sayle
yeah absolutely
00:12:05.91
Paul H
And it was you know might have been ugly, but it was also dynamic and it was interesting. You had lots of conversations. And you know there was there was movement and there was energy and there was people knocking on doors and there was a ground game. I mean, now, like even a place like Hobart and St Pancras, the Labour Party at a ground level like has basically ceased to exist.
00:12:22.22
alexei sayle
Really?
00:12:22.71
Paul H
There's really you know pretty pathetic levels of of you know people going out and door knocking and canvassing. it's really just like You look at their their photos and it's these depressing collections of a huddled group of Labour councillors and a couple of hangar-ons.
00:12:38.11
Paul H
But the reason I got into the book was was you know so very opportunistically and very and and and sort of out of the blue, I got access to this like this is absolutely... incredible cache of documents out of the Labour Party in in about late 2021, early 2022. And i I thought at the time when I got this cache of documents that I'd be seeing precisely this sort of stuff, the sort of you know internal minutiae of Labour Party battling, which is interesting in and of itself because because you know it's the the cut and thrust of our politics.
00:13:09.43
Paul H
and But actually, it was my partner, my partner, Jess, who who I worked with very closely and is an incredible researcher. We were looking through all this material, and and she came across, know, what really triggered the start to it was that she came across this email, just this set of emails, about this organization called Labour Together.
00:13:28.57
Paul H
which at the time, you know, we had no idea who labored together, where they seemed like pretty small anodyne. Turns out they're actually this like really fundamental vehicle that was used by a guy called Morgan McSweeney, who's now the chief of staff of the prime minister, to do two things. One is to to destroy, secretly run the Sydney incredible campaign of dishonesty and misdirection, to destroy the capacity of of of the Corbynite people.
00:13:52.28
Paul H
leadership to to succeed, really undermined the prospects of the Labour Party winning in 2019 as a precondition to installing their chosen replacement as leader, which was Keir Starman.
00:14:03.03
Paul H
But the thing that we discovered, in this you know that Jess discovered, was this email where um i think it's' it's an aide or an assistant to Steve Reid MP, who's now the Minister for Housing, who is very close to Morgan McSweeney.
00:14:13.97
alexei sayle
Fucking particular idiot.
00:14:15.80
Paul H
and ah And he was saying, you know there's email basically said, ah you know, Labour Together has been doing all this stuff, including Labour Together has been involved in in this this campaign against anti-Semitism in the Labour Party.
00:14:30.83
Paul H
And we were just struck by this because we were like, well, what on earth you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. There's nothing in the public domain, nothing that Labour Together has ever said that would indicate that you guys have been involved in the anti-Semitism crisis.
00:14:42.11
Paul H
I mean, there was even at one stage in 2019, Labour Together did this like takeover of Labour List, where they had all these people writing articles for Labour List. Anti-Semitism was not mentioned those articles, right? So the question became, well, if you were involved in anti-Semitism crisis, why does nobody know about And what were you actually doing?
00:14:52.05
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:14:57.30
Paul H
and And basically, me and Jess sort of pulling this thread. um and And we sort of realizing how central Labour Together Morgan McSweeney was, both to the project to undermine Corbynism, but then also the project to install Keir Strahm as leader. and And effectively now, I think he he he largely runs the government. And we've just literally seen this week.
00:15:18.97
Paul H
and that you know he' one of his closest political allies in this project was Shabana Mahmood, who's now the Home Secretary, and and you know she's announced these like horrific, absolutely horrific crackdowns on asylum seekers who really faragested tone and content and and approach.
00:15:25.98
alexei sayle
yeah
00:15:29.80
alexei sayle
extraordinary yeah they have to sell their jewelry which is very i mean you wonder you do feel they're kind of tone deaf because they live in such a kind of enclosed world but that is so redolent of you know Jewish yeah you know people in being censored, the concentration camps having their jewelry and taking off them.
00:15:45.27
Paul H
Yeah.
00:15:51.59
alexei sayle
you know They don't even see the kind of parallels, really.
00:15:54.94
Paul H
Yeah, I think you know partially the the cruelty is the point.
00:15:59.48
alexei sayle
Right, okay.
00:16:00.86
Paul H
Cruelty is is you know this this this this project this this announcement, which is really you know a Morgan McSweeney plan. It's part of his political, it's part of his strategy for how the Labour Party wins the next election, and which is to, they they need to pretend to be reform on certain key cultural issues and around immigration, park their tanks on their lawn, potentially outflank reform on the right if you can, if you can get there.
00:16:11.82
alexei sayle
Right.
00:16:24.95
Paul H
um so that you know and And the theory is that at that point you'll you'll get some Labour to reform switches back, or you'll make sure that the reform can't draw any distance between you and them. The problem is that the vast majority of people who vote for the Labour Party, historically the vast majority, I'd say at least half of the people voted for the Labour Party in 2024, the vast majority, I mean really the vast majority of its own members,
00:16:49.24
Paul H
and And actually quite a few of the people who were sort of of a sort of a centrist persuasion who backed Starmer are just absolutely horrified by this stuff.
00:16:56.60
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:16:57.18
Paul H
You know, it's like a real, real red line. And, you know, he probably doesn't...
00:17:00.63
alexei sayle
I mean, are they that stupid that they think they've... I mean, I suppose they were right in in that that, you know, it's that where else are they going to go? They have nowhere else to go. that the the The calculation is that people will vote for Labour to stop reform under any circumstances that and that a left alternative will never emerge, which is obviously starting to not be the case.
00:17:23.64
Paul H
Yeah. Well, I mean, that there's the sense that they can shed they could shed certain types of voters and still maintain a majority. and And that's actually, it's part of like an explicit methodology that they develop. So I talk in the book, um,
00:17:38.61
Paul H
you know, there was this report that was written in 2023 by Labour Together, which basically was, at that stage, was working very closely with McSweeney to develop the strategy for how Labour Party is going to win that election. And it's just really, I mean, I think it's such a fascinating document. It's such a a distillation of, like, everything that's wrong with this political methodology that that sort of guided McSweeney, but also you know, explains why our government right now is is so deeply unpopular.
00:18:03.81
Paul H
And basically what it does, you know, what it does is it it looks at the population, it it splits the whole population of the UK into six different segments and says, you know, in order for us to win a majority, like this massive majority, these are six segments of the population.
00:18:04.41
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:18:16.99
Paul H
We need to win two of them. and We need to would say four of them in total, two of them, yeah and they list them all. And basically what it comes down to is that the people that that that don't matter in terms of voting for them because they're going to both vote for them anyway or they're in safe seats are sort of centrist dads, basically, and progressives.
00:18:35.99
Paul H
like Basically, they say in their report, these people don't matter because electorally at the moment they're in safe seats or they're going to vote for us anyway. ah So what we need to do is is to basically win over these other segments of the population. And we do that by turning right on all sorts of policy.
00:18:49.69
alexei sayle
don There's no conception or idea that this might be mildly wrong.
00:18:49.78
Paul H
and
00:18:53.62
alexei sayle
you know that That doesn't come in.
00:18:54.23
Paul H
Well, there's two things that that are really interesting.
00:18:55.24
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:18:57.37
Paul H
One, you read that document, there's no sense, first of all, whether it's ethical.
00:19:01.11
alexei sayle
yeah
00:19:01.33
Paul H
but There's no sense of like, they talk about immigration, for example, and it's clear that even in in in that document, they're sort of playing around the idea of our flanking the Tory party and the right on immigration at that point, which is already, the Tory party is in the Rwanda scheme and stuff like that. So there's no sense of like, this is ethical, whether it's not ethical, that's not even a consideration. But also, there's no consideration of whether that's actually...
00:19:22.78
Paul H
workable, or whether this is how you do government, this is actually a practical solution for how you govern.
00:19:24.92
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:19:28.54
Paul H
All it is, really, is we're going to interview a whole bunch of people, we're going to find out what they want, we're going to reflect back what they want at them, regardless of whether it actually makes any sense whatsoever, ah regardless of actually the long-term political impact, what it'll do is it'll make us win this election.
00:19:40.94
Paul H
And what it actually does, you know and then that methodology is carried through in the in the general election in 2024, and you look at, it's reflected in the manifesto, where they make all sorts of you know, promises that they can never keep because the promises they make are totally unrealistic about, if you're actually going to govern after 14 years of austerity, if you look at that manifesto, it's a joke.
00:20:00.70
Paul H
It is like, it's a bad joke because that manifesto was like tinkering at the absolute edges of like a fundamentally dysfunctional country after 14 years of of austerity.
00:20:01.01
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:20:11.03
Paul H
And they're like, we can fix this country by by moving some spending we were going to use on like the rerouting of a particular A-road. Literally, it's what it says the manifesto, you know.
00:20:19.34
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:20:20.90
Paul H
That stuff was nonsense. It was it was total rubbish, right?
00:20:22.36
alexei sayle
yeah
00:20:23.37
Paul H
you know We won't raise taxes during the life of this parliament.
00:20:24.09
alexei sayle
there
00:20:25.81
Paul H
well How are you going to deal with the fact that you know you you this is 14 years of austerity and growth is sluggish? This is not serious stuff. But it was designed to win that election.
00:20:36.34
Paul H
And it's also a big reason why they're so unpopular now. And it's a big reason why, you know, and that was done, that that methodology was was done when it was very clear there was a two-horse race.
00:20:40.79
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:20:47.26
Paul H
was basically Tories and Labour.
00:20:48.98
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:20:49.26
Paul H
Now it's not a two-horse race anymore. Precisely because they've got this methodology, it's now a five-horse race in certain constituencies, right?
00:20:51.13
alexei sayle
No.
00:20:55.83
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:20:56.34
Paul H
And the Labour Party is just absolutely losing support to the left, which could very realistically in the next year, as a result of all this stuff, actually start surpassing it in the polls.
00:20:59.19
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:21:05.44
Paul H
And then the Labour Party strategy is really screwed because the Labour Party strategy is, it's either vote for us or get reform, but they're actually the third or the fourth party in certain seats.
00:21:05.70
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:21:11.93
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:21:13.84
Paul H
People will vote for somebody else to stop reform.
00:21:13.98
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:16.60
Paul H
and So, I mean, I think it's encouraging.
00:21:17.02
alexei sayle
I mean, I mean, I, Yeah, I mean, so there was so, the book the book is published and there's a particularly, I'm sure you're aware of it, particularly, I thought, you know, if you're a fan of these things, there was a particularly remarkable incident on Newsnight, was it last week or the week before? So there's a ah panel there, one of them is is Barry Gardner, kind of flamboyant, but, you know, left-wing, obviously, main loyalty to Corbyn. Another is this character called Morris Glassman.
00:21:47.41
alexei sayle
Morris Glassman is sprawled on the couch. I've never, i mean, I've come across his name before, but never. He's wearing a, he's sort of got a suit on, but also a kind of jumper. And he's it's very kind of... do I mean, his his his body language is very... um is very arrogant, really, in a way. Anyway, so at some some point, um Barry Gardner says, you know, there are two books which are fundamental to understanding Keir Starmer and the Keir Starmer Project. One is... um
00:22:20.66
alexei sayle
One is Poggrund and Maguire's Get In, and the other book is... Paul Holden's the fraud. Now, Maurice Glassman at this point has already, I think, said that the Project Labour Party was to get rid of all these and racist left-wing lunatics, which by which he meant the Corbyn administration.
00:22:37.36
Paul H
Mm-hmm.
00:22:40.64
alexei sayle
But then he says... Getting is very good, but the the fraud is, i can and I will say this, the fraud is left-wing conspiracy theories. I was there, and, you know, it's a dishonest, it remember the actual words you used, dishonest, or, you know. Well, of course you fucking reject it, because you're part of the, it is blue labour, isn't it?
00:23:04.63
alexei sayle
and obviously a Zionist as well, that, that that that you know, you're front and centre of this this um conspiracy, really. But it was, i mean, for Newsnight, I thought it sort kind of jumped out, really. I mean, but, you know, it jumped out as a real exchange rather than, um you know, the usual kind of anodyne swapping of kind of,
00:23:27.93
alexei sayle
talking points. So, i mean, I don't know if you reflect on that, really. as that was that
00:23:32.35
Paul H
Yeah. i mean
00:23:34.01
alexei sayle
How did you feel about that? Was
00:23:35.51
Paul H
I mean, first of all, um and there's so many different things to unpack there. I mean, so the the first thing I've got to say is is is being attacked by Morris Glassman, I think might be like one of the greatest endorsements of my life.
00:23:47.42
alexei sayle
but
00:23:48.44
Paul H
and
00:23:48.94
alexei sayle
there an immediate uptick in sales from...
00:23:50.65
Paul H
and needtic Honestly, seeing Morris Glassman attack me, and like I had the biggest smile on my face.
00:23:52.15
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:23:54.61
Paul H
i was like, I've done something right in my life if Morris Glassman doesn't like me.
00:23:55.26
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:58.20
Paul H
and I mean, Maurice Glass-Wenille, he is the thinker, and I use that word advisedly, and because he's, you know i really don't really rate what he has to say, but he's the thinker and the founder behind the sort of the blue labour movement.
00:24:11.42
Paul H
and
00:24:11.54
alexei sayle
He reminded me a bit of, you know, this is The Witches of Eastwick, if you remember this. i think it's a John Updike.
00:24:16.25
Paul H
Yes.
00:24:18.34
alexei sayle
The character of the devil played by Jack Nicholson. this that You don't see for a while. He really, i mean, attractive in a way, but also read listencent readollescent read a redolent of of kind of malice, really.
00:24:26.26
Paul H
Hmm.
00:24:32.18
alexei sayle
I just thought he was really a kind of remarkable figure in a way. I'd never seen it But anyway, yeah, sorry.
00:24:38.17
Paul H
So, I mean, he is this spirit he is the sort of remarkable figure, and and I'm not sure that anybody who who is part of this political faction has really served by having him talk in public or on news night, because actually the more speak to him, the more people realise he's a bit...
00:24:50.33
alexei sayle
Right.
00:24:53.78
Paul H
but ah the some of his views are a bit strange. I mean, he's like ah he's a big fan of Steve Bannon, for example. ah You know, he's, you know the blue labor thinking, which is really sort of, I think, pretty nutty, is the sort of workerist, anti-welfarist position, but extremely conservative on cultural values.
00:24:59.26
alexei sayle
right
00:25:12.99
Paul H
with this idea that what they what Blue Labour is trying to do is is to to remake the Labour Party from within as as as the authentic home um of the working class that doesn't give a crap about woke progressive ideas.
00:25:25.88
Paul H
And and of course, you know running within that is you know a strong pro-Israel approach as well. um and And it's it's pretty...
00:25:37.02
Paul H
it's like you know I find it sort of distasteful at a personal level, like the actual politics that they espouse, but also i just think it's electorally suicide to to basically say to the core...
00:25:48.55
Paul H
Basically, that they have... what The thing that's interesting about Blue Lab is just the extent to which they have utter contempt for the vast majority of Labour members and a very good number of Labour MPs, who they think are a bunch of liberal wastrels, which is quite something concerning, you know, who's left in the Labour Party at this point?
00:26:04.02
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:26:04.66
Paul H
Hardly the most, like, radical collection of, you know, ex-C&D operatives, right? It's like, I mean, you think it gift did Louis Hayes is...
00:26:10.24
alexei sayle
Pat McFadden, you know, as I did it so much, you know, i say about Pat McFadden, who's, yeah, Pat McFadden, who's running the morgue while you're on the telly.
00:26:14.94
Paul H
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:18.87
Paul H
Yeah, exactly. So on the one hand, I was like, you know i do I think there's a great endorsement. I did think it was interesting because the one thing you don't want to do as an author or as somebody who produces something is the worst the worst thing to happen to you is to be ignored.
00:26:32.08
Paul H
So at least I know that I'm part of a conversation. And what I do actually think that conversation reflected is that saying like plainly, Marge Glassman, who was very close to Morgan McSweeney, like extremely close to Morgan McSweeney, to the extent that you know last week when there was all that briefing that happened about you know where streeting was running, Marge Glassman and Morgan McSweeney were sitting together for hours, literally before that Newsnight interview, Morgan McSweeney and Marge Glassman were sitting and talking about this.
00:26:48.57
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:57.28
Paul H
So of course, Marge Glassman's going to you know have ah ah a line of attack on a book that basically exposes Morgan McSweeney for you know the real... frankly, the piece of shit that he is and and why he shouldn't be anywhere near power.
00:27:07.77
alexei sayle
yeah
00:27:11.13
Paul H
um But what it did reflect is that is plainly this book is being talked about, plainly this book is being talked about within the Labour Party itself, and plainly it's being talked about in ways that it's problematic for Morgan McSweeney. For somebody like ah Barry Gardner, who I think would be sympathetic to least some of the stuff in the book about you know the attacks on the faction, to raise this book, and everybody knows that he's talking about
00:27:33.40
alexei sayle
Hmm.
00:27:33.90
Paul H
suggests to me that it it is actually going, maybe they even talk about it openly, it's going around like Samersdut behind the scenes. And they're already just being geez, I can't believe Morgan did that. that i can't believe that Steve Reed did this. um While this really actually does reflect something problematic, that this is a a really utterly intolerant political faction that's now taken over the Labour Party and and is driving us onto the rocks of far-right, faragist,
00:27:59.13
Paul H
immigration policy as our polls tank completely and and they've installed this this prime minister who is the least popular prime minister since polls began. The thing that that that they can't deny is that
00:28:09.57
alexei sayle
I
00:28:13.56
Paul H
this book, even if they disagree with it necessarily, at least it actually provides an explanation for how we got there. It has a coherent, cogent theory. I mean, as the, but you know, I will say this, Marge Glassman said it was inaccurate.
00:28:24.54
Paul H
He didn't say what was inaccurate about it. I mean, this book is, you know I stand by this book 100%. You know, this book is like, it's so deeply researched and that there's so many footnotes that we had to put them online because it would add another 150 pages to the book, right?
00:28:29.40
alexei sayle
um mean, extraordinary, meticulous research, yeah. I mean, I'm somebody who's, yeah, yeah.
00:28:39.45
Paul H
So, uh,
00:28:39.74
alexei sayle
Yeah, I mean, I'm somebody obviously who abhors research and would rather make stuff up, which is you know it's just kind of my job, you know so that's fine.
00:28:50.49
alexei sayle
ah But ah you know I am in awe of the kind of granular level of research that you have put in and people have put in on this book. I think, yeah, as you say, it's remarkable, really, and that's that's why they can't refute it, can they? Because it's so meticulous, yeah.
00:29:08.76
Paul H
No, I mean, and and we will work, you know, it's ah so you can obviously BHS has been working on this fall you know for a very long time, digging into loads and loads of material. Lots of stuff was cut out as well, I should say. So there's still more stuff to come out.
00:29:19.39
alexei sayle
Wow. Are you going to do that as another book are you going to like...
00:29:20.30
Paul H
but um
00:29:24.78
Paul H
I like the idea of a series called The Cutting Room Floor or something that, doing a series of articles of just little stories.
00:29:25.45
alexei sayle
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:30.92
Paul H
Some of them are a bit silly, some of them are a bit more serious. Just that I think fleshes out some of the nature of this particular political faction on the project and how they behave and the sort of the total lack of principle or ethical compass behind a lot of what they do.
00:29:33.98
alexei sayle
right
00:29:48.22
alexei sayle
yeah
00:29:48.40
Paul H
But we were terrified. We were really genuinely very, very, very worried. And I was very particularly worried about the legal response to the book, that we'd be sued for libel, that I'd be sued for libel.
00:29:58.20
alexei sayle
No.
00:29:59.44
Paul H
And as a result, the book was extensively libel-checked. The book was, you we had to make it 100% certain. And I think what it meant was, you know, very practically, was that we had to be, well, I had to be extremely disciplined in the way, in what I could say and what I could back up and what I could justify because I was always extremely nervous about, you know, A, I don't think helps case to overstate but B, we had to, you constantly I was writing with a lawyer on my shoulder saying, what can you justify?
00:30:31.58
Paul H
What can you stand up? What do your documents actually say? Don't say anything beyond what the documents actually say. Don't speculate beyond that.
00:30:39.93
Paul H
but So actually, I think the book ends up being slightly more conservative than it could have been. It could have been much more strident, I think, and in the approach that we had.
00:30:47.62
alexei sayle
Right.
00:30:50.78
alexei sayle
I mean, what and what do you think about the timing? Because in a way, I mean, you have certainly added to that process, but I know because I've known this book has been in the the works for many years, and in some ways I...
00:31:02.04
alexei sayle
wanted it to come out before the truth about when Starmer was still riding that wave of popularity and it would have then but maybe I mean maybe this is the perfect moment maybe in a way you've been that when I mean the Starmer project was already starting to fray was when you the book came I mean it was only officially launched was it on the 13th of November i mean in my mind it's been out for about two years already but um uh but um uh i mean you i mean it i mean and even before it came out it it had resulted in the resignation of two political figures is that right i know oven and
00:31:10.15
Paul H
Mm-hmm.
00:31:50.90
Paul H
the Paul Ovenen definitely was related to that. There sort of rumors about other people as well, although that's never been entirely stood up. Yeah.
00:31:57.53
alexei sayle
all those all those aids that the people have left down in street the street that various
00:31:59.48
Paul H
yeah
00:32:02.39
Paul H
And there was the tension you know behind the book was was very much that. i you know I originally thought, I need to write a book. you know When we started pulling these threads and when we realized what this political project was and and and really how like deeply problematic it was, and it's not just that it's mean-spirited, it's not just that it's unethical, but there's like serious governance issues around it.
00:32:23.54
Paul H
There's like proper issues around like unlawful conduct about you know dirty money, undeclared funds.
00:32:25.51
alexei sayle
yeah
00:32:28.94
Paul H
um you know real issues around, you know, the extent to which the party has already been aggressively captured by corporate interests, the you know the flood of lobbyists that was allowed to happen as a result of of the remaking of the party and under McSweeney and Starmer.
00:32:45.94
Paul H
And it was always my intention to warn people. And i was I was pretty devastated when I realised the book wouldn't come out before the election. and And the intention was always to get it out before the election.
00:32:54.10
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:32:55.71
Paul H
um
00:32:55.90
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:32:57.62
Paul H
And ah you know to basically send the message that you know you need to be careful about this guy. And and I felt at at a personal level, it's pretty distraught that we couldn't let people know enough about this guy and this project before the election. But at the same time, i think looking back on it now,
00:33:16.60
Paul H
and in the conversations that i had and and and where the media was going, is that this book would have been utterly ignored. I mean, really, nobody wanted her to hear that stuff back and in 2024 because there was just this, and and correctly said, there was a sense of the Tories are absolutely horrific and and we just need to get rid of the Tories.
00:33:25.02
alexei sayle
Right. Yes, absolutely. Yes.
00:33:33.43
Paul H
ah So even people, so people who are now much more sympathetic to the book back then but pretty hostile to it And I do think that what has has helped
00:33:33.61
alexei sayle
Right.
00:33:37.90
alexei sayle
Right. Right.
00:33:44.47
Paul H
is that the book has landed, you know, if the book had come out before the election, I would have basically the of the book, like, be warned, it's going to go to crap, right?
00:33:53.66
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:33:53.98
Paul H
Whereas now the book has come out, and I'm like, well, look, it's gone to crap.
00:33:57.50
alexei sayle
Yeah, yeah.
00:33:58.29
Paul H
And if you think it's gone to crap, why has this happened? This book explains it. So it's landed in the point where people have this very profound, even pretty ordinary people who are not massively politically engaged have a sense of something has gone dreadfully wrong here.
00:34:15.14
Paul H
Something is not right. We've elected this Labour government, massive majority, and everybody hates it in a year and a half.
00:34:21.43
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:34:22.36
Paul H
and And it's made none of our lives any any better. In fact, if anything, it feels like, I think for most people, it feels like things have feel that they've stagnated or gotten worse and in in many respects.
00:34:32.21
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:34:33.50
Paul H
So there is it starts from position of of, you know, the book lands in this position where but people really have the sense of, well, this political project has really disappointed us. It's not what we thought it was. and And it's now, I think, it's deeply embedded in the public consciousness that this that that Starmer himself is is personally untrustworthy.
00:34:52.88
Paul H
And I think what the book does is is help people understand that he's it's not just that Starmer himself was is is distrustworthy, but the political project that brought him to power uses is is based on dishonesty.
00:34:53.27
alexei sayle
yeah
00:35:05.69
Paul H
It it inculcates dishonesty as...
00:35:06.14
alexei sayle
Yeah, I mean, who do you think he is? I mean, do you know him or do you know who well I mean, who is he?
00:35:10.77
Paul H
Starmer.
00:35:11.85
alexei sayle
I mean, I'd say I've only met him once at a charity football match. It's
00:35:16.44
Paul H
Right. um I mean, if you listen to him, he's the midfield general of his fiver side, right?
00:35:19.41
alexei sayle
the strangest.
00:35:24.02
alexei sayle
Yeah, well, he... would Yeah, because I met him...
00:35:24.73
Paul H
Yes.
00:35:26.14
alexei sayle
with the I don't know if I've told this story before, but the a friend of mine, very dear friend, is in his so plays five-side football, and he told me about this guy who was an MP who...
00:35:37.14
alexei sayle
even though he had an important shadow cabinet brief, would ring round couldn't would ring round, would choose the teams, would book the pitch, would ring round everybody, and um would really which which kind of at the time you thought it's a bit it's very controlling if you're...
00:35:45.98
Paul H
Hmm.
00:35:57.05
alexei sayle
seemed oddly controlling. But then the other thing was that my friend used to have... what he called Fish and Chip Friday at their house in Queen's Park.
00:36:07.14
alexei sayle
And he used to he said, that we have this this lovely couple, Keir and Victoria.
00:36:07.64
Paul H
Mm-hmm.
00:36:11.80
alexei sayle
They come over, Fish and Chip Friday, and then I go to Chip Shop in West End Lane and then come back, and it's just absolutely lovely, and you must come over for Fish and Chip Friday. I mean, I can't imagine what would have happened with those two fuckers if I'd had...
00:36:29.90
alexei sayle
Fish and chip Friday. But the only thing that he did, that my friend had a charity football match celebrate his birthday, and I played. can't remember whether I was in Starmer or... I wish I'd crippled the cunt. I would have saved us all a lot of... I could have maybe passed it off as sporting injury, you know.
00:36:53.47
alexei sayle
But... But, I mean, that was the only time I met him.
00:36:54.81
Paul H
We definitely wouldn't be
00:36:56.12
alexei sayle
And he seemed, I mean, you know, in retrospect, I mean, it he seemed, um don't know, he wasn't he wasn't thrilled to meet me, really.
00:37:06.32
Paul H
Well, I mean, I only met him once very briefly. And obviously we were we were actually the same Labour Party branch in Kentish Town. So I saw him then.
00:37:13.69
alexei sayle
Yes, this was Linda, yeah.
00:37:15.25
Paul H
and and it And for me, the sort of that that it it was clear, even at that stage, that you know within the really, by the that had twenty nineteen sort of of do the really like rank factionism that had
00:37:30.42
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:37:30.59
Paul H
dominated the party and was replicated locally that that he was on. It was plainly located within the sort of the right wing faction there.
00:37:38.74
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:37:38.94
Paul H
I mean, from, you know, who he is personally, I mean, i I think the one thing that's really striking about Kiyosama is that he doesn't seem to have any, what I suppose what people used to call a political economy, that he doesn't have any deep or fundamental sense of...
00:38:00.95
Paul H
of why society looks the way it does. he's He's not a great political thinker. Actually, it's interesting, if you read the Tom Baldwins, there's this long Tom Baldwin book, which is um you know quite sympathetic to him, and it's a biography of Starmer.
00:38:05.78
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:38:13.89
Paul H
And and it's ah it's a fascinating read because obviously Tom Baldwin... The book, weirdly enough, made me like Tom Baldwin, but also feel very sorry for him, because clearly Tom Baldwin wants Keir Starmer to be a figure.
00:38:26.25
Paul H
He wants him to be, you know, he knows he's going to be the next five minutes. He wants him to be ah another great Labour leader.
00:38:30.14
alexei sayle
Right.
00:38:31.66
Paul H
And, but actually what, if you read the book, it's this like fascinating thing of a biographer who's very sympathetic to him, repeatedly trying to get Starmer to explain who he is.
00:38:32.18
alexei sayle
right
00:38:41.14
Paul H
And he's like grasping at smoke. It's like, he can't grab this guy. he doesn't exist. Right.
00:38:45.72
alexei sayle
Yeah. I mean, that's a man of soup, I think.
00:38:46.78
Paul H
And,
00:38:48.00
alexei sayle
I mean, he's, he yeah, he just, he doesn't exist, really. It's ah it's a strangest phenomenon, in a way.
00:38:53.69
Paul H
No.
00:38:55.74
alexei sayle
Just to also to, ah going back to the book, there's a weird kind of ground zero geographical location for a lot of this shit, which is, bizarrely, is Croydon, which...
00:39:08.02
Paul H
Yes.
00:39:08.72
alexei sayle
Talal tells me it's called the Kronks, isn't it? that It's also seen a a bizarre, actually, nightlife. But Croydon, I mean, just this is, you know, I mean, I remember crout before that before London was really, um before the kind of skyscraper kind of Dubai on the Thames era of London, Croydon, if you were driving back in from France, coming up the, I don't know, it's the A2, the A20, if I remember,
00:39:37.44
alexei sayle
Croydon was this collection of um of ah kind of shine tower blocks, which looked like Manhattan. for This has got nothing to do with your book, but looked like Manhattan from a distance, really.
00:39:47.50
Paul H
Right. Hmm.
00:39:49.28
alexei sayle
If you were coming from the south, I would say that Stevie Wonderline living for the city. you know New York, just like I pictured it, skyscrapers and everything. I would say to Linda in the car, Croydon, just like I pictured it, skyscrapers and everything.
00:40:03.40
alexei sayle
But it was just this, I mean, the actually as you got closer, the reality became considerably less romantic. But um yeah, I just remember, you know, in the sort of 80s and 90s, just driving towards Croydon and there was just this collection of kind of glittering tar blocks.
00:40:18.98
alexei sayle
Anyway, this, for some reason, this has become the locust, I can't remember, but not locust, well, locust belly, I suppose, locust corruptee of, ah
00:40:28.00
Paul H
Hmm.
00:40:28.25
alexei sayle
the geographical ground zero of labor corruption maybe you could just talk a little bit about that
00:40:32.15
Paul H
eight i By the way, I'm actually going to steal Locus Corrupti because is absolutely brilliant. I love that. That is so good. um the i mean yeah a but Basically, the the story of of of this particular arab government is the story of Morgan McSweeney and his closest political allies, and his closest political ally for years was Steve Reid, who is now the...
00:40:52.89
alexei sayle
Right. He's the idiot with the buildba build, baby, build, MAGA style.
00:40:56.14
Paul H
He's the Bill Baby Billster, yeah.
00:40:57.62
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:40:58.23
Paul H
Who before then was was refusing to to you know even contemplate nationalizing water.
00:40:58.90
alexei sayle
Fucking.
00:41:03.53
Paul H
and But he's, you know, you anybody who watches him on TV recognizes that he's a bit of a mediocrity, but who has really sort of rocketed to prominence precisely because he's been at the heart of this particular project.
00:41:04.02
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:41:16.26
Paul H
And he's always been based in South London. So he was originally in Lambeth, and then he becomes the MP for Croydon. And there's like a whole, basically, this Croydon set of opera at the time.
00:41:25.66
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:41:26.85
Paul H
So Morgan McSweeney, his first, if you read you know all the hagiographies that have been written about him, it's you know ground zero for his political awakening is is working is working in in sort of Lambeth and working Stephen and engaging in these pitch battles with the loony, crazy left there and and seeing them off.
00:41:37.98
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:41:44.60
Paul H
and And then, you know, when... There's an interesting theme there because... obviously Croydon itself, it's sort of been a bit of a but of a marginal territory at a sort of a council level and a municipal level between the tories and the leo party and the leo party sort of took it over right about the time that steve reed was rising to prominence as as an mp there and just absolutely ran into the ground like absolutely ran it into the ground so uh it's quite astonishing that that that you know it was one of the few i think one of the only the second ever to to effectively declare bankruptcy.
00:42:13.11
alexei sayle
Yes. Yes. um Yeah.
00:42:23.92
Paul H
and And part of the reason I declare bankruptcy, coming to back to your your point about the skyscrapers in the sky, was because the Croydon Council under the Labour Party had been basically engaging in these like extremely weird Baroque schemes to effectively become like ah almost like a commercial housing developer, um making all sorts of like very weird decisions, but effectively just driving the Debuyra into ruin.
00:42:42.30
alexei sayle
right
00:42:46.83
Paul H
And that's basically Steve Reid's political allies, right? um It's Steve Reid's political milieu.
00:42:50.87
alexei sayle
David Evans.
00:42:53.27
Paul H
And, you know, I tell the story of of of of Inside Croydon, which is that that small media outlet in Croydon, which I'm now going to write to the editor and suggest that he renames himself Inside Cronks and see what he says to me.
00:42:53.50
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:43:03.26
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:43:09.07
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:43:10.94
Paul H
and and he And he's this great journalist, Stephen Downs, like proper pound the pavement, like get the story, whatever you make, gumshoe, the sort of people we venerate right ah in us in ah in in our imaginings of like what it is to be an investigative journalist.
00:43:16.58
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:24.02
Paul H
He is that guy. um and he And basically his role is to investigate the the wrongdoing of Croydon Council. And he just uncovers so much of it. And all the people that he's uncovering, he's involved in that stuff, are all of Morgan McSweeney's political allies, as he reads political allies. So when Morgan McSweeney wins, you know the effectively takes over the Labour Party via Starmer, all of that sort of Croydon methodology and that Croydon approaches, think it's sort of implemented into the Labour Party itself. And like the most obvious, like
00:43:55.99
Paul H
example of that is is is David Evans, who comes in as the general secretary of of a Labour Party and under McSweeney, effectively, and and McSweeney's insistence. Stam actually wanted somebody else altogether, which I think shows the, actually the nature of the relationship between these two and who was calling the shots. But, you know, David Evans is, is again, Croydon...
00:44:14.94
Paul H
and like ah a Croydon stalwart, he was getting contracts from you know his company called The Campaign Company, he was getting contracts out of out of the Croydon Local Council. And inside, Croydon was reporting on the whole, maybe there's conflict of interest here, that sort of stuff.
00:44:29.08
Paul H
so And the thing that sort of marked that period is is sort of two things. One, it's hyper-factionism. Like Croydon is like... The the level of factionism that I saw in Hobart and St. Pancras is nothing compared to what happened in Croydon and South London and Lambeth. It is like... It is bloodsport stuff down there.
00:44:45.53
Paul H
And it's been bloodsport stuff for a while. And the second thing is just this like total... This total collection of of mediocrities running things into the ground.
00:44:56.54
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:44:56.73
Paul H
Which is effectively what happens, you know which I think is what's happening now is you know, this collection of of people who don't really know how to govern, don't really have any deep, profound thoughts about how to actually fundamentally make our lives any better.
00:45:08.68
alexei sayle
Right.
00:45:12.38
Paul H
Now sitting at the wheel and being exposed to who they are, which is basically a bunch of. know political opportunists um who have really spent years and years and years confecting this um image of themselves as these like hyper-competent you deal-makers and and and governors who are really just the emperor's new clothes stuff, right?
00:45:37.71
Paul H
That's what they're being exposed as
00:45:38.39
alexei sayle
yeah yeah yeah that well that's the other thing is that they're i mean i mean i don't know whether that speaks to the nature of our politics but they're not because you think of them i mean they're evil that is true but they are also massively i mean they're and they're good at factionalism i suppose because of their because of their terrible personalities they're good at that but they're not good at anything else at all really And Morgan McSweeney obviously is paint painted in the Pogrund and Maguire book as this fucking genius who managed to get Starmer elected, you know, through his his level of kind of political Machiavellian conniving.
00:46:02.17
Paul H
not
00:46:15.43
alexei sayle
But when, know, the entire press and the entire, you know, the and yeah the the the power, the entirety of the establishment is willing you into power, it's not so much of a fucking achievement, is it, really?
00:46:25.91
Paul H
and
00:46:28.50
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:46:29.53
Paul H
No, and and definitely there's a sense that you know that the Labour right wing, and I think there's like a deeper fundamental problem with our politics about the the way in which the Labour right wing, at least over the last 30 or 40 years, has has played in British politics, is that there's basically no easier position to be in than to be a Labour right wing politician in opposition.
00:46:49.98
alexei sayle
Right.
00:46:50.68
Paul H
Right, because basically what you do is is you you sort of float around for a bit and and and you pitch a couple of policies that nobody really tests, nobody actually thinks. You're just sort of flying kites for three or four years.
00:47:01.47
Paul H
You've seen, you know, the the press treats you with kid gloves because you are the person who is repeatedly punching left-wingers in the face and putting their heads in the toilet.
00:47:08.28
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:47:09.27
Paul H
And they all think that's great sport and great fun. um And then, you know no matter what, sort you're actually encouraged. so These repeated ritualistic expressions on like factual animosity, which then you know plays out in like the way they treat Diane Abbott, for example, which is really just, you know I think, specifically actually designed to humiliate her, designed to humiliate her as it a strategy to send a message to both the media and and to certain sectors of the voters saying, Diane Abbott is not one of us.
00:47:38.17
Paul H
we We hate her as much as you do. We're going to punish her on your behalf. And there's a sort of collective schadenfreude amongst these set when they when they see that happening. and i will say, you know, the one thing, you know, McSweeney is is very good at certain things.
00:47:53.72
Paul H
out and I'll give him that. So he is, i think he is almost unparalleled in his ability to work the media to place narratives that are helpful to his political objectives and to do so entirely behind the scenes without any disclosure.
00:48:10.23
Paul H
i mean the extent to which he effectively
00:48:10.58
alexei sayle
Right.
00:48:14.36
Paul H
drives, the role that he's played in forming our of sort of commonly understood political narratives around things like anti-Semitism, but also even like more recently about, yeah.
00:48:26.02
alexei sayle
We should put antisemitism in inverted commas, by the way, whenever we say it.
00:48:28.82
Paul H
Yeah, exactly. But but the um you know the way in which they, you know, he does have an incredible ability to create media narrative that helps his political objective.
00:48:39.45
Paul H
I think that's actually his superpower. man I mean, think it's it's not a good thing. I think it's generally a pretty despicable thing because, um you know, quite often when you actually look at the stories that he places in the media, actually look at them but deeply, they don't really hold up and and and there's all sorts of problems with them.
00:48:44.60
alexei sayle
No.
00:48:56.76
Paul H
um But as a so sort of strategic genius, that's just nonsense.
00:48:57.75
alexei sayle
I mean, was this... Sorry? Yeah. Yeah. say
00:49:01.22
Paul H
This idea that he is like that he has a unique finger on the pulse of of of the of the country is is clearly rubbish.
00:49:01.82
alexei sayle
yeah
00:49:09.22
Paul H
And it's clearly rubbish because he's produced the leader who's the chief of staff, to who's the least popular prime minister since 1977, since records began.
00:49:15.95
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:16.54
Paul H
Like the proof is in the pudding, right? The proof is in the pudding is that that this this guy is absolutely hated.
00:49:18.46
alexei sayle
is
00:49:21.18
Paul H
This political project is falling apart. um That a guy who's just won 400 seats is basically the walking dead. And everybody basically realizes that Morgan McSweeney is is part of the reason for that. and So that sort of narrative of him being this a great strategic genius who has, you know, he's the vote whisperer. He's the working class whisperer.
00:49:42.44
Paul H
That's nonsense. you know he was extremely good at at creating media narratives. He is unparalleled, along with his allies, in being utterly brutal in internal party democracy issues around factionism, precisely because they actually just don't like democracy at all.
00:49:55.48
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:49:58.49
Paul H
They don't think democracy is a good thing. i' would actually say that one of the hallmarks of this political project is it's not that it's undemocratic. It's actually anti-democratic. you know It doesn't believe that democracy is
00:50:06.74
alexei sayle
Yeah, and that was, of course, one of the things which I mentioned in, I think, Series 4 of Sandwich Bar, my Radio 4 series, was this Starmas membership of this thing called the Trilateral Commission, which nobody ever picked up on, the only MP2B.
00:50:21.69
alexei sayle
I know you don't really mention it either, but this is essentially an organisation of US oligarchs who believe that democracy is not a good idea.
00:50:30.42
Paul H
Yeah. I mean, i I don't focus on the traditional commission because I still don't understand it, I have to be honest.
00:50:35.38
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:35.95
Paul H
And partially because actually I think the story of Starmer is the story of McSweetie, who i think is actually a really more
00:50:41.18
alexei sayle
Right, yeah. He's not even British, is he, McSweeney? He's actually Irish.
00:50:44.86
Paul H
He's Irish. she was born in Ireland. um He has a very interesting family history, and which I encourage people to Google.
00:50:46.52
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:50:51.90
alexei sayle
i one Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:53.99
Paul H
There was this incredible article. It only came after the book came out. had no idea about this stuff when I was writing the book. um But there was a scandal involving his father. i don't fully know the details of it.
00:51:04.49
Paul H
I don't want to repeat it in case it's silly for libel. But I get i recommend everybody Google Morgan McSweeney.
00:51:06.26
alexei sayle
yeah
00:51:10.15
Paul H
I think it's the... And Morgan McSweeney and... Oh, I have think of the exact title. But basically, there is... if you look at Morgan McSweeney and Ireland or something like that if in Google, it shows up.
00:51:20.50
alexei sayle
Right.
00:51:21.83
Paul H
There's this article that's written... the couple of articles we've written in Ireland after Stalin was elected. Most of them are like, how great it is to have Morgan McSweeney because he's going to represent he's going to represent some sort of Irish interest in in government.
00:51:32.63
Paul H
i don't know if that's any true But then there's this incredible long read going into his family's history and where his father was accused of of financial fraud and there was...
00:51:32.76
alexei sayle
Right.
00:51:43.06
Paul H
And that's really quite astonishing thing.
00:51:43.91
alexei sayle
All right.
00:51:44.94
Paul H
So i mean McSweeney himself, is a i mean I think he's like a fascinating character because he's a character who is so fundamental to our politics, but as I say in the book, never been interviewed on camera.
00:51:49.18
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:51:58.42
alexei sayle
No. No.
00:51:58.65
Paul H
never been interviewed by a journalist, never had gone on radio to explain his thoughts. And he runs the country and nobody nobody knows what he thinks and can test his ideas, which is actually sort of fundamental to why everything is, you know, why they've struggled so much now is that, you know prior for the election, nobody actually tested these people, scrutinized them in any sort of meaningful way.
00:52:15.61
alexei sayle
no
00:52:16.37
Paul H
um And as a result, you know, I think it's made them come into government thinking that everything is really easy, You need to push one or two buttons and, you know, push the, pull the lever that says economic growth and it'll happen or send the right signals to the market, right?
00:52:28.44
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:52:31.93
alexei sayle
ah Yes.
00:52:33.70
Paul H
And this is, you know, fundamentally unserious because, primarily because people hadn't scrutinized these people at any level whatsoever, tested the ideas and be like, well, precisely how are you going to pull this lever?
00:52:34.26
alexei sayle
Fucking idiots. Yeah.
00:52:42.07
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
00:52:45.95
Paul H
Why why do you have a lever and the Tories, do the Tories have the lever but they didn't pull it?
00:52:48.66
alexei sayle
yeah
00:52:51.45
Paul H
Why wouldn't the Tories pull the the lever if they had it as well? and
00:52:54.26
alexei sayle
yeah
00:52:56.38
Paul H
So.
00:52:56.41
alexei sayle
So what's your, I mean, then, I mean, your book is a part, what are your predictions for the future then, I guess? Oh, well, two things. How has your book been received? I mean, it was interesting, I mean, that, ah yeah, probably it was fortuitous as it came out now when more people, but the media were more open to, for you know, to mentioning your book rather than just burying it, which they might have done before the election. And also, what are your predictions for the future?
00:53:25.85
Paul H
Well, as the the way the book has been received has been interesting, precisely because it's a different time. But also, and we we adopted a particular i adopted a particular strategy for how to sort of get the book out there, which was to basically selectively leak a series of stories.
00:53:41.75
Paul H
to sort of across the political spectrum in the press to sort of generate a bit of heat. And then there was there was enough there they got attention, you know, getting Paul Overland to resign, for example, um that it forced attention on the book.
00:53:46.87
alexei sayle
Right.
00:53:54.51
Paul H
So it couldn't entirely be ignored, which is always what I was worried about, that it would come out and... and you know it would maybe sort of circulate, you know a couple five people would buy it at bookmarks in in central London and nobody else would.
00:54:05.02
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:54:06.19
Paul H
um And it sort of forced it into the mainstream in a way that couldn't necessarily be ignored. So it' it's reached that status. and People talk about it. It's plainly in the conversation that people are having.
00:54:16.72
Paul H
It'll be interesting to see, you know obviously there's been sort of favorable reviews on the left that have come out. I'm very interested to see how... the mainstream response to the book and how they deal with it. And if they even acknowledge it from like a review perspective, I don't know what's goingnna happen in terms of predictions. I mean, the one thing I will say is that this book is not the end point of what I consider a longer term project, right? This book is...
00:54:40.60
Paul H
is the first part of of informing the public about what I think are serious issues around good governments. and And I will be doing stuff subsequently about making sure that some of the case studies I deal with in this book are properly pursued by authorities, right?
00:54:46.98
alexei sayle
Right.
00:54:54.20
Paul H
I think that we absolutely have to hold these bastards to account. um and And I will, you know, I have a plan... to do what I can as much as possible to pursue these stories to to their logical conclusion where I can.
00:55:07.66
Paul H
in terms of what's going to happen in the government, I mean, it's plain to me, it's Starmer won't leave the party.
00:55:14.01
alexei sayle
And it was McSweeney that was doing this briefing, was it, against streeting? Although I've seen this theory that somewhere, which i think was in, like, Evening the... i don't know whether it was, but that really that but McSweeney, because he is closer ideologically to um streeting, that him briefing against streeting was actually a way to actually foreground streeting as the viable replacement for Starmer.
00:55:39.62
Paul H
Yeah.
00:55:39.73
alexei sayle
Is that correct?
00:55:41.07
Paul H
That's the that's the i mean the the problem with all this stuff, right? as soon As soon as you have a secret briefing and nobody knows who briefed it, then you basically en invite crazy amounts of speculation.
00:55:46.68
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:55:48.81
Paul H
But I think
00:55:48.98
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:55:51.70
Paul H
you know Owen Jones' theory, and and I tend to be sympathetic to this theory, is that basically this is an a confected crisis in order to try and somehow create this perception in the public domain that West Streeting is at loggerheads with Morgan McSweeney and and with Keir Starmer.
00:56:08.94
Paul H
And it's being done precisely because they want...
00:56:09.51
alexei sayle
Right.
00:56:12.16
Paul H
Westreaking to be elected the next leader. mean, they've just seen, they've had a deputy leadership contest between Bridget Phillips and Lucy Powell, who are basically indistinguishable, right?
00:56:21.75
alexei sayle
yeah
00:56:21.85
Paul H
In terms like both, like i can't, sometimes can't even tell them apart, you know, when I see pictures of them, but in their political ideology, like really there's like nothing between these people really.
00:56:33.43
Paul H
And actually quite interestingly, they're both part of what I call the Labour Together movement.
00:56:33.71
alexei sayle
Right.
00:56:37.50
Paul H
you know they They were part of this this group of what they call eight brave MPs who'd been working with McSweeney for years. So they're part of the same ideological tradition. The only difference that was drawn between them, which got Lucy Powell to win over Bridget Philipson, was that Lucy Powell was seen as anti-Leaders' Office. was like ah ah some sort of like rebellion vote. if you You're basically signalling that you're upset with Starmer and McSweeney to vote for her.
00:57:01.18
Paul H
And I think they've seen in that that like actually McSweeney and Starmer have, with the Labour membership, the people who actually vote for the next leader, they're toxic. So anybody who's too closely associated with McSweeney and Starmer is going to have a problem with membership.
00:57:14.71
alexei sayle
Right.
00:57:15.81
Paul H
And the problem that they have is that McSweeney and Labour Together and West Streeting, well, sorry, let me rephrase that. Labour Together in particular has for ages now been bragging about how central West Streeting was to like all their various, all their work that they've been pursuing over the years.
00:57:32.10
Paul H
So it's been very hard for them to say that we're streeting has no connection to it. So they're trying to, you know, my reading is that there's an attempt to create this confected distance between streeting and, and, and, some but I mean, it to be absolutely clear that if streeting is elected,
00:57:49.09
Paul H
ideologically, I don't see any difference between him and Starmer.
00:57:51.79
alexei sayle
No.
00:57:52.41
Paul H
I don't see anything that he'll meet do meaningfully as any different. He might be, like, signaling to the left on certain things, but, I mean, honestly, ah yeah what's he going to He's going a privatize the NHS even faster.
00:58:04.41
Paul H
i mean, there's
00:58:04.57
alexei sayle
Yeah. i always liked that. I mean, it's also how deluded i think the media are to think he's an attractive character. You know, the people in the Labour Party, they talk about his film style, good looks, and I think, well, what's the film?
00:58:17.14
alexei sayle
Predator 2. Predator 2. I mean, what in what universe is that guy attractive person?
00:58:23.32
Paul H
yeah or he's he's he's not you know I think they overestimate how much the the voting public will like him.
00:58:29.37
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:58:30.01
Paul H
In the same way that you know there is something about West Streeting that that doesn't translate... to ordinary people. He's one of those people who reminds me a bit of Jess Phillips, who for a long time was held up by the media as like, oh, she is an incredible communicator.
00:58:45.41
Paul H
She is unbelievable. She's going to be the next leader. And if you remember doing the 20-20 leadership election, she ran. And she was a disaster. It's like it's a total utter disaster, right? Like on the on the stand, actually arguing with people, just fell apart in harpy, sort of embarrassingly so, fell out of the race very quickly.
00:58:57.66
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:59:04.44
Paul H
And I think Streeting is one of those same people who is probably a little bit slick on the morning rounds, is has obviously done an incredibly good job at like, you know he he is Labour factionism insider politics through and through.
00:59:04.57
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:59:10.04
alexei sayle
Yes.
00:59:18.59
Paul H
right This is his life.
00:59:19.29
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:59:19.71
Paul H
He has been in the Labour Party pretty much his whole life. His whole goal is basically get to reach this to this position. And as a result, he's been extremely good at at a at seducing and and and city time spending time fluffing the egos of of various journalists around the world.
00:59:35.62
Paul H
So there's a sense of Westminster, oh this guy's really good, he's a really good communicator.
00:59:36.40
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:59:40.15
alexei sayle
Yeah.
00:59:40.31
Paul H
I'm not sure that I see it. And actually, if you look at the polling within in the Labour Party itself, within the Labour Party membership, I mean, he's about as, you know you look at, you know, who the most popular cabinet ministers are and and leaders are, I mean, you basically are right at the bottom, you have ah Liz Kendall because of the welfare reform, so then you...
00:59:58.46
alexei sayle
but She's so bad.
00:59:59.00
Paul H
And then you have Rachel Reeves, then you have Keir Starmer, and then you have West treating.
01:00:00.25
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:00:04.38
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:00:05.11
Paul H
The Labour membership can't stand in the sky. Why do you think you know the Labour membership, which has now been whittled down to 200,000 people, 200,000 true believers, they just stand in the sky?
01:00:11.42
alexei sayle
Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:14.53
Paul H
Why on earth do you think he's going to communicate with the public at large?
01:00:18.26
alexei sayle
Yeah. yeah Absolutely. Well, I'll just finish there. i could talk for I could talk for hours and hours and hours about this book, but I will just recommend it to our readership. but What do you want, Talal?
01:00:35.26
alexei sayle
You trying to say something?
01:00:42.42
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:00:51.48
alexei sayle
Very important.
01:00:53.02
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:01:00.31
alexei sayle
Right. The publicist is very good about that, yeah.
01:01:08.41
alexei sayle
I have many OR books sitting there on my desk.
01:01:11.19
Paul H
Could I plug something as well?
01:01:14.14
alexei sayle
Yeah, sure.
01:01:14.70
alexei sayle
So let's just... Yeah.
01:01:17.75
Paul H
Okay, all right.
01:01:22.74
alexei sayle
I'll just say about the link.
01:01:24.86
alexei sayle
So I could talk i can talk about this book for hours and hours and hours. It's a magisterial work of political analysis. If you want to buy it, there is a link in the podcast.
01:01:40.81
alexei sayle
There's a link in the podcast that you can click on and you can order it.
01:01:45.56
alexei sayle
If you want to buy it, there's a link in the podcast description, which you can click on, which means that you will circumvent ah Amazon and will buy it in a much more ethical way. But I urge all of you to buy it. I mean, Paul, you wanted to say something else?
01:02:03.42
Paul H
Yes, she's going to check the dates on something very quickly. and done
01:02:06.84
alexei sayle
I mean, but it is it ah is it selling well?
01:02:10.50
Paul H
It's selling very well. i mean, we've quite been surprised.
01:02:11.64
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:02:12.86
Paul H
um um'm just trying to see. I want to basically say we have we're starting our sort of national book tour soon. I want to tell people.
01:02:21.09
alexei sayle
Oh, right, the book tour.
01:02:22.01
Paul H
So let's see find out what the dates I don't want to tell people dates that are wrong.
01:02:26.58
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:02:27.19
Paul H
And now I just realize i didn't know what they are. and Because I'm open
01:02:30.79
alexei sayle
Have you got an interlocutor for a while? I wouldn't mind doing that if you've... Yeah, I'd be happy to.
01:02:34.73
Paul H
Oh, really? Well, we're just gonna be we're doing Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham first.
01:02:40.57
alexei sayle
and Okay.
01:02:42.49
Paul H
Would you be interested in joining any of those?
01:02:45.34
alexei sayle
Yeah, Manchester Liverpool, any of those, yeah, yeah.
01:02:47.70
Paul H
Amazing. Okay, I'm going to text you after this to to make a plan.
01:02:51.06
alexei sayle
right Yeah, well, it's it the only other one I've done.
01:02:51.84
Paul H
Okay.
01:02:52.86
alexei sayle
Well, I've done Asaka, but also did Beryl Reid. but ah yo you know Not Beryl Reid shit, so we can edit that out. What's her fucking name? and Professor Flugglepuff.
01:03:05.84
alexei sayle
Miriam Margolis is the one I've...
01:03:07.10
Paul H
Mario Margulies.
01:03:07.26
alexei sayle
I hardly size i but ah you know actually did read her books as well, but I'm much more familiar with your book.
01:03:07.87
Paul H
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:03:15.54
Paul H
I like Miriam.
01:03:15.74
alexei sayle
But yes, no, I'd love to, i'd if if if the dates work, I'd love to come up and, yeah.
01:03:15.98
Paul H
I spoke to her.
01:03:19.89
Paul H
Oh, great. Okay. I'll send them to you. um Should I plug the dates now?
01:03:25.82
Paul H
Yeah.
01:03:27.34
Paul H
That's right. It's in Manchester. So should I should i say it now? Okay.
01:03:32.06
Paul H
okay So one of things we're doing is we're taking the book on tour. We had a great launch event in London recently, which is well attended. was really fun and interesting. We have an event on the 8th in Manchester, Friends Meeting House, on the 9th in Liverpool at the Quaker Meeting House, and then in Birmingham at the Priory Rooms as well.
01:03:54.52
Paul H
We're going to be advertising events on Eventbrite. Standard ticket rate, I think it's going to be £5. We will have concessions as well because I know that some people are struggling. So we'll definitely have quite a large amount of concession tickets available as well.
01:04:04.75
alexei sayle
Yeah,
01:04:08.92
alexei sayle
yeah but I'll come. I mean, you I mean, if you have you worked out the model? Are you going to have like an interlocutor in there? Or, you you know, have you thought about how you're going to do it?
01:04:16.15
Paul H
Yeah, I mean, we did to what we did was quite good in in in London. We had Richard Sanders, who was the sort of the host of it, and then Faiza Shaheen, who was of in conversation with me.
01:04:23.01
alexei sayle
Oh, he's very good. Yeah, yeah.
01:04:27.95
Paul H
So maybe, be and Andrew's going to be joining me, Andrew Feinstein will be joining me for these events.
01:04:28.01
alexei sayle
All right. Yeah.
01:04:31.26
alexei sayle
Okay. Okay.
01:04:32.23
Paul H
So and maybe you you, me and Andrew talking, I'll say it's going to be quite fun.
01:04:35.93
alexei sayle
Yeah, fuck that'd be a powerful
01:04:37.72
Paul H
ah maybe get one additional. I do like the idea of getting people who are local as well to to speak a bit. So there's some good people in Manchester and Liverpool we're thinking of as well.
01:04:44.31
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:04:48.12
alexei sayle
Yeah, I'll do Manchester, Liverpool or Birmingham might be, it would be an easy one for me because i could just do it and then come home sort of thing.
01:04:53.45
Paul H
Okay. That
01:04:54.78
alexei sayle
But yeah, let's, let's let's ah if you know, it's up to you, obviously, but I don't want to force myself on you.
01:04:59.64
Paul H
would be great. i' be I'd love to have you.
01:05:00.64
alexei sayle
But ah yeah, yeah, if, yeah, just get in touch with the podcast.
01:05:01.20
Paul H
would be amazing.
01:05:08.09
alexei sayle
So if we, is this still, is this still radiophonically interesting? um
01:05:13.31
alexei sayle
No, when did it stop being interesting?
01:05:18.81
alexei sayle
All right.
01:05:19.70
Paul H
But right before then, it was fascinating.
01:05:20.09
alexei sayle
So you...
01:05:20.98
Paul H
Right like right up to that point, it was like riveting and then...
01:05:21.56
alexei sayle
yeah Yeah, well, it was. It was. but Yeah. um So you're on tour, you're going do, i mean I mean, I think that the live event is, you know, I mean, this where you know, in some ways where where, you know, there's a renaissance of, you know, people want to come to live events, you know, where there's, ah you know, where interesting things are being said.
01:05:38.29
Paul H
Right.
01:05:43.96
alexei sayle
um ah i just I just did, I just did, can't wait, the antithesis of this. I did Comic-Con on Saturday with this,
01:05:55.70
alexei sayle
many people with ADHD dressed as Daleks it was um uh it was an interesting event but anyway it's a you know the the live author event I think is uh I see they weren't dressed as Daleks really they were dressed as more interesting things
01:06:11.35
Paul H
Well, maybe if you if you would be willing to do one of our events dressed as a Dalek.
01:06:16.06
alexei sayle
ah that would That would cover all the bases. Oh, well, of course, because I've been into...
01:06:19.45
Paul H
ah Exactly.
01:06:21.18
alexei sayle
i should i I should do it either as my character in the Indiana Jones movie that I was in or as my character um in... And I've got the beard for that.
01:06:32.72
alexei sayle
Or as my character in Doctor Who. So, yeah, I'll do it. just
01:06:36.09
Paul H
There you go
01:06:36.95
alexei sayle
Yeah, then we cover the entire waterfront there.
01:06:39.13
Paul H
One of... them
01:06:39.79
alexei sayle
We've got literally everybody.
01:06:41.56
Paul H
Why don't we just advertise it as as a Doctor Who event and then confuse the people who arrive?
01:06:41.88
alexei sayle
i will do... yeah Yes. him Yes. Revelation of the McSweenies.
01:06:52.66
alexei sayle
It's a new terrible kind of terrible menace to civilization and to the doctor.
01:06:58.04
Paul H
yeah
01:06:59.02
alexei sayle
These these slimy creatures called McSweenies, these ginger-colored evil characters. I think we better stop now. Thank you very much, Paul.
01:07:09.34
Paul H
I do like that.
01:07:10.49
alexei sayle
I...
01:07:12.98
Paul H
have this sort of inside joke in the family about McSweeney is like a real 19th century villain's name. ah You can imagine him like arriving at the gates of a city and the and the god says, what do you want at this time, McSweeney?
01:07:20.25
alexei sayle
Yeah.
01:07:27.76
alexei sayle
Because also I was thinking before, which is, I mean, is that, I mean, because, mean, don't know if it's true. I mean, West Street, you know, which reminds me of Uriah Heep from, you know, from Dickens novels.
01:07:43.99
alexei sayle
that kind of oily kind of sycophant i just think would be he would he would he could maybe play he could play um i don't yes he could play your eye even panto or something i don't know again this is thank paul this is um an amazing book
01:08:05.30
Paul H
yeah
01:08:05.78
alexei sayle
ah And I urge everybody to buy it by clicking on the link in the description or go down to your local left-wing bookshop, independent bookshop, buy it there.
01:08:19.22
alexei sayle
And, yeah, hopefully I'll see you on the road, man.
01:08:22.40
Paul H
Great. This is amazing. I'd love to see the Dalek outfit. It's going to be great.
01:08:25.69
alexei sayle
Well, like what have I got? i don't Yeah, i haven't really got... I could do it i could do it as one... oh I don't know if you... Probably before you came here, I could do as my failed warm-up man, Bobby Jarrett.
01:08:36.46
alexei sayle
I could be... a What other characters could I do?
01:08:38.29
Paul H
be good.
01:08:39.59
alexei sayle
Well, I could do... You know, there was one of the photos, again, before your time, probably, but there's an episode of The Young Ones and which I was signing photos of where I play... It's this very complicated storyline where I play a...
01:08:53.46
alexei sayle
a driving instructor from Johannesburg, who's really the man from ah radio. if They've rented a video. This is all entirely archaic, really. But I'm i'm actually, I'm pretending to be a driving instructor from Johannesburg, but I'm really a man called Harry the Bastard. So maybe I'll come.
01:09:14.32
alexei sayle
It's a long story. Lock it up. but ah So I'll come as Harry the Bastard to our live event.
01:09:19.42
Paul H
I like it.
01:09:21.14
alexei sayle
But, yeah, thank you very much, Paul. It's it's a brilliant book.
01:09:23.35
Paul H
Thank you so much.
01:09:27.41
alexei sayle
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