Welcome to Alumni Live: The Podcast.

These are conversations with Grand Valley State University film and video

graduates about the industry, the film, video, major and alumni profiles.

Welcome to another episode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.

I'm your host, Randy Strobel, and today we're talking to the professors

who help make GVTV what it is today.

We've got Kim Roberts, faculty advisor from 2000 to 2011.

Hi Kim.

Hello.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for being here.

We've got Len O' Kelly, 2012 to 2018's faculty advisor.

Len, thanks for all you've done.

Thank you, Randy.

I'm glad to be part of this.

And James Ford rounding us out from 2018 to present.

James, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Randy.

Happy to be here.

All right, so let's talk about Grand Valley Television.

Grand Valley Broadcast Network as it was originally known.

Kim, let's start with you.

In those early years, who came to you?

Did you go to somebody?

Tell us about those early days of GVBN

. Jillian came to my office and said "We're losing our advisor and we need to keep

going." And I of course said, "Yes.

Yes.

Yes." Didn't really know what that meant 'cause I had only, believe it or not, I

was the advisor for the men's water polo.

One of my students wanted to start a water polo club.

And so I signed on to that, I've never been to water polo, nor did I

ever visit any, I just signed so they could get it done and that was it.

Some of the graduates that were on that team still contact me and tell

me how proud they are of how this has kept going and how they've done well.

I did not expect when we got into this for the beginnings of Grand

Valley Television to be water polo.

Well, I didn't do anything except sign a form, but GVTV,

GVBN was definitely different.

And in those days, student services had this gigantic big open space

in Kirkhof and every student group there was like a little cubicle or

a little wall between everybody.

And then there were these big tables in the middle where you could spread out

and make posters and, do stuff like that.

So all the student groups just had little cubicles.

Well, you can imagine that didn't really do much for, the student network.

And they had this really clunky machinery that they were using.

They would, record it and put these big tapes inside there

and then try and broadcast it.

It was very very clunky.

During my tenure at Grand Valley there were many renovations.

Probably three, maybe four renovations to Kirkhof, while I was there.

So I went to, the head of Student Services, and said on this

renovation, we need to get a studio for our television station.

And he's like, "Ha yeah, okay." I said, "Well, we need a

space where people can record.

We can't be in this open cubicle with all these noisy students around.

They need a place and they can't always go on location and go into their

apartments and things like that." So he said, "Well, okay, I'll propose it."

Then he came back and said, " it's not gonna happen." And I said, "Bob, I'm

sorry, but I'm not gonna take no for an answer on this." I said it with a smile.

He said, "I thought you might say that." And I said, "No, you have

to go back and ask them again."

Meanwhile, I don't know who the president was then, it wasn't

Jillian it was someone else, and she was just crying her eyes out.

She was so disappointed.

And I said, " Don't worry, we're not done.

I'm gonna keep advocating for it."

And I had only asked for just a room.

I said, "Just give us an oversized closet just so that they can at least

record in there." He said, it doesn't seem like that much of an ask."

So then months went by, and he said, "Okay, we have carved out a space for

you." And that is the current space.

So, you know, we ended up with a studio and a control room.

And I felt very, very proud of that.

And then going to a lot of the budget meetings we scored big time on

getting just a baseline of cameras and tripods and microphones and lights.

It was really, really great.

So after that, they just seemed to really be able to take off.

So that's what I contributed.

' Cause I'm not a broadcaster and I don't have the knowledge that Len and James

have and they have just taken it to a whole new dimension which is awesome.

What I hear in that story is that moment of, "I won't take no for an answer".

And you know, when we talked to Jillian, she had that same tenacity.

And it's just to do those things, you're gonna be told no, and it's

just what you do with that answer.

Well, yeah.

And you don't have to be mean or angry about it.

But I said, "This is student services.

This building is for student services and you know how much use people

are gonna get out of a media studio.

I don't even have to make that argument.

You know how to make that argument." And then we ended up with probably four or

five times the space that I had asked for.

Thank you so much.

I started in 2008 in that GVTV room and it was still brand new and beautiful.

I wanna bring in Len and James here.

So Kim, handed off the baton to Len.

what was that like?

Was there an actual baton?

And Len, where did you pick up in that story?

There is an actual baton, but I have to give a little bit

of origin story before that.

So I came to Grand Valley in 2009 to work for WGVU.

There was a radio station that they had that I launched.

And in 2010 I started advising the Whale student radio.

And in 2011, I became an adjunct, faculty member in the School Communications.

Right around the end of 2011, as I recall this, Kim was getting ready to go on

sabbatical and the call went out, "does somebody want to advise GVTV?" And I said,

"Well, I would be interested in that." And I was pulled aside by one of the other

faculty members who said, "You know, you probably should let somebody else have

a chance at doing something." I said, "Okay, I'll wait." And nobody was going to

step up, that was pretty obvious to me.

So I said, "Well, why don't we go have a meeting?" So Kim stopped by

my office, said "let's go over to the Office of Student Life and we'll walk

this through." I said, "Okay, great."

So we walk over and Michele Golightly was still working in the Student Life Office.

And she's doing some things and we're talking about all this, and Kim says,

"So, you're good now, it's you, right?" And I said, " Yeah, I'm all set now.

When is your sabbatical over?

And she said, "Well, no, now you're it." I honestly did not know that I had

agreed to become the permanent advisor.

I thought I was just gonna do it for a semester and then everything's

gonna go back to the way it was.

That does sound like me.

Again, not taking no for an answer.

So I'm like, okay, I got a thing.

So even before the baton is handed off, Kim says, "By the way, the club

is doing their pitch night tonight.

Can you make it?" I said, "Oh, I'll make it a point to go."

So I go walking down to the studio and they were doing the pitch night in the

studio, and I walk in and they said, "Hi, welcome. Are you here to pitch a

show?" ' Cause they had no idea who I was.

I said, "Um, no,.

Actually I'm your advisor." And they're like, "Oh, well then come on in." And

I got to meet everybody that night.

But then it was at the next meeting was when Kim came to the meeting with the

baton and kind of surprised me with it.

So I didn't go to pitch night?

You were on your own?

I was on my own.

I walked in and they thought I was there with a script or something.

Well that's mean.

I should have accompanied you there.

No, it was all good.

For our listeners, if you don't know what pitch night is, it's a

night where you can pitch your own show or your own movie or whatever.

It was a big important thing and a lot of people came.

What was nice about going to the event is I got to meet the whole club at once,

and I'm trying to learn their names.

I'm terrible at learning names, so it was good for me to get in.

So I guess I threw you in the deep end right away.

Sorry about that.

That's how I like That's I like it.

That's actually, I do better when I'm thrown in that way.

So it was a great start.

Well, and it's so funny too that at that pitch night, they

thought that you were pitching.

'cause that is something that's so important from, GVTV, is that

anybody can pitch a show and it doesn't have to be in the major.

We had computer science people making shows.

And they saw you and they said, "Welcome. Pitch your show. What's your idea?"

It could be some old guy walking in who clearly it doesn't go

here, and it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

But the next meeting that they had was when you came and explained to

everybody that I was gonna be the advisor and that you were gonna be

taking a leave of absence and then you produced the baton maybe out of your bag.

I had to create one for that.

Right?

Yeah.

It's an actual runner's baton with the GVTV logo on it.

And I had it on my shelf in my office for the entire time I was the advisor.

And then eventually when I handed off to James, I made sure that he got the baton.

And the only modification I made to the baton was when

we won our first MAB awards.

I popped up champagne at my house that night and I stuck the cork from the

champagne bottle in the end of the baton.

I love it.

Technology wise, the big thing I remember shortly after becoming the

advisor was all of the equipment that actually broadcast the station was

in this big giant, metal rack that lived up in the Student Life Office.

And we moved it down into the GVTV studio.

And it just fit in the elevator with maybe a couple inches to spare.

' Cause that thing was a massive piece of equipment.

And afterwards I said, "Well Bob," this is Bob Stoll.

I said "Bob, we got it moved. Sorry, we ripped the hell out of the carpet."

And I just walked away and we apparently had done a number on

the elevator carpet getting it in there 'cause it was not gonna slide.

I said sorry.

I haven't been in the studio in a while, but I think that thing is still there.

And trust me, it is not gonna move.

Don't try moving that thing.

It was not good.

But we had some other things.

We got some equipment, the ability to go live.

I remember we went live from a campus life night, I think it was in 2013 maybe.

That was so exciting.

That was so much fun.

Everybody was, so geeked to be able to do that.

And during my time there, what I remember the most about it was just so many shows.

I mean, there was one semester, I think we must have had 13

or 14 shows in production.

It was just madness, trying to keep everything together and nobody had

enough equipment and everybody was doing amazing things with very little.

And I will never forget the enthusiasm of that club, just always trying to

find ways to stretch themselves and make something out of almost literally nothing.

And it was just a fun activity.

And the only reason I stepped out was I became the Associate Director

of the School of Comm in 2018.

And I said, all right, something's gotta give.

And I don't really have a television background.

I'm a radio person.

And I looked over at James Ford and I said, "Hey, television

broadcaster, have I got a job for you?"

Yeah.

I sort of did the same thing Kim did and said, here it's yours.

Incredible.

James Ford, you have the baton currently.

Len came to you said, how about you are in charge of this organization.

how did that go?

Well, I think it went pretty well.

I think it's going pretty well.

I can tell you that when we started off, it was one of those deals where I

was just starting off as a tenure track after being a Visitor for four years.

And, when you're in the tenure track mode you really don't

say no very much to things.

Mm, that's

right.

so I said, yeah, why not?

No, actually the other thing is, I've been in broadcast all my life over 35 years,

and one of the things that I've found is so rewarding for me is to see young people

get really excited about how to create.

and I see it sometimes from students who don't have anything to do with

broadcast, you know, it's one of those deals where they didn't know they

were interested and they, come to a club meeting and they try something.

And I have multiple examples of this, I'm sure we all do over the years.

And all of a sudden they create something and someone says, Hey, you know, that

was really good, and their eyes light up and now all of a sudden they're in baby.

they want more.

And I think that part of it really attracted me.

The other part that attracted me, frankly, was that Len did a pretty darn good job.

And it was rocking and rolling.

So, when I took over the first year, we did have, 12 shows

that were running all at once.

Now that might not seem like a lot, but 12 different shows for a student

produced, television station was as Len said, it was nuts, in a really good way.

Anyone who's a faculty advisor can tell you there's a learning curve, man.

You first get in there and you're not really sure, what's going on

or what you're supposed to do, what your role should be, how much is,

overstepping and how much is not enough,

Not to mention that they meet at night when you're exhausted

Not only do they meet at night, but there was this tradition of we'll

meet until 10 or 10:30, and then we're all going out for fried cheese.

I'm like, how do you people eat like this?

Yeah.

And why do membership meetings have to happen at 9:00 PM on a

Monday night?

oh, I know.

It's awful.

All right.

So before we go down that road, I just wanna say that, the club was just

rocking and rolling and then COVID hit.

we had such great momentum going and such intense involvement

on the part of students.

And then COVID hit and for two years we didn't know how to get together.

Rules were changing constantly.

We had to go through this whole thing, with, distancing the cameras.

One time, we landed on like, one person can be in the TV studio and

one person can be in the control room.

And it's not really easy to produce something when you only

have, one talent and one person working in the control room.

The acting's a little thin at that point.

Yes.

And you better be very, very good if you're in front of the camera.

So anyway, after the whole COVID thing, last two or three years

has been honestly rebuilding.

Last year though, we had some really, really intense, cool experiences with

Grand Valley TV students, but also with, a couple of area high schools

that were in a program we called Grand Valley Student Reporting Labs.

GV SRL is actually partnered with PBS Student Learning Labs.

So it's a powerful, grant-based kind of vibe that we had going and

that put us in area high schools.

So here's the deal.

We were able to get students from East Kentwood and from Wayland High

School to come into the TV studio on a live election night stream.

And my good friend Len O'Kelly was there to help produce, weren't you Len?

Yeah, it was fun.

It was a lot of fun.

But if you think about the most rewarding experience, the most intense

experience of producing a half hour live stream that went out nationally.

We had probably, close to 30 people in the TV studio.

And, by the time we got done with that, we're all just drenched in sweat,

everybody's clapping and everything else.

It was just amazing.

And I'll never forget at the end of that night, we're cleaning up, celebrating, and

one of the East Kentwood students steps up to me and she asked me, How do I do this?

I gotta do this.

I mean, she absolutely had, you know, the passion now to get involved in broadcast.

And I think just to wrap things up, that's really what Grand

Valley TV is really all about.

It's always been about that.

It's about getting that extra experience for students outside the classroom where

they can work their magic and not have a professor over their shoulder, but really

meet people that they never would've met otherwise and create something

amazing.

Yeah.

And taking those big swings is something I think that the organization in all the

generations under, Kim, Len, and James.

Like those big swings of, Hey, we're gonna do something

that's never been done before.

Whether it's, creating a TV station, doing a live broadcast,

doing the, student reporting labs live broadcast across the country.

That is something that's so cool to be a part of.

And, James, hope you don't mind.

I have to shout out my wife real quick.

Mallory Patterson was the Student Reporting Labs Coordinator at WGVU.

So, yeah.

You and she worked really hard to make that happen, and I love to hear that.

Yeah, she's great.

So, I wanna talk a little bit about, this kind of balance between being a

faculty, advisor where you're trying to help the students but not be on top

of 'em the whole time, not looking over their shoulder, but they need guidance.

how do you handle that as faculty advisors?

My rule was always the beginning of every semester I did this for

both my radio students and my TV students and I would tell them, I

will defend anything you want to do.

Just let me know first what it is you plan to do so that I can prepare my defense.

Don't catch me off guard with anything.

I think in the entire time, so I was, with radio for 15 years and

GVTV for six, I think maybe only once did I ever have to tell a student

I don't think that's a good idea.

Any other time I was like, let's find a way to make this happen.

Let's find a way to do this.

I remember one night, the board had changed and a pitch

night got particularly heated.

The discussion about do we pick up this show?

Do we not pick up this show?

And the students started a little battle with each other and tempers flared.

And I remember one of them stormed off.

And I don't remember who it was, turned to me and said, " Alright,

tell us what we did wrong." 'Cause I was sitting there watching this.

I said.

I think you know what you did wrong.

I don't think I need to explain that to you.

They all came to me the next day to apologize for the way they acted.

And I said, "no, no, no, no, don't.

This is part of the learning process.

One of the things you have to learn in student media as with anything in

college, is how to work with other people.

And I think you got a good lesson in that tonight."

I don't know that except for maybe one instance and it was radio, for what

it's worth, it was not television where I had to say, I don't think that's

something that you should attempt to do.

the students I thought were always very thoughtful and they had their reasons and

they would make well-reasoned arguments.

I mean, they would have to go before the Student Senate every

year and ask for equipment.

And I wasn't allowed in the room with them.

They told me, you can't go into that meeting.

The students are gonna have to, sink or swim on their own knowledge.

And I remember one year they went in and said, "Well, we need money

for our webpage." A student senator said, " You paid for the internet

last year." And without missing a beat, one of our students said, " Do

you know how the internet works?

Because It's a subscription.

You have to pay for it."

So they were actually educating the Senate on their needs, and they always did such

a great job advocating for themselves.

I was always very proud of what they did every year.

so I, I say you have to do it carefully, but there's always that balance too

of, you know, I'm Len the professor, but I'm also Len the confidant, I'm

Len the friend, Len the sounding board.

And you have to kind of balance all those roles, when you're doing

advising and it's a tricky balance.

It really is.

Kim, I know from experience you were so good at that balance.

what were some of your theories how to do that with students?

I came from two private art colleges, and so there wasn't a

lot of censorship in my bones.

But much like Len just mentioned, my concern was always that they, respect

each other and they respect the equipment.

You own this equipment.

You have to treat it well.

You have to treat other people well.

So I said, you're never gonna get trouble, from me on content, but you will hear from

me if there's a problem or break down in any of those two areas, and the space.

Once we got the space too, they needed to respect that space.

In fact, one time I did go down there and saw so many candy wrappers

and junk and garbage all over the floor, and that upset me a lot.

And so I c alled everybody in to clean it up and to tell them

you gotta respect this space.

You got to leave it better than you found it for the next group.

I teach my students that, when they go on location, if someone is gracious enough

to give you a space to create, you need to leave that space better than you found it.

even if it's just putting a thank you note on the table or putting

a, flower, something just to, say thank you for the space.

Those are the things that, I remember watching over, and

trying to help them navigate that.

But, you know, if there were some sensitive scenes that they were

wanting to do, I would let them know that I would help them to figure out

how to shoot them and still, have, integrity between the actors and, not

have any kind of fall out from that.

But I taught Film and Video Art and oh my gosh, the things

that they created in there.

I remember some of those pieces went on, GRTV, Community Media

Center and all hell broke loose.

one of my friends said "Can you give me all your projects from

Film, Video, Art?" And I said, sure.

And I asked the students, " Does anyone have a problem if these go on GRTV?" And

they said, "oh, no, no, no." So then my friend calls, and said, are there penises

smoking cigars in one of your projects?

I said, "Oh, let me think.

Yeah, I do remember something about that." And she said, " Seriously, you

don't remember that?" And I said, "No, I came from, the Art Institute of Chicago.

Like, these are not things that shock me." And she said, "Well, all the church ladies

in town are having a fit about this."

So I wasn't very shockable.

And I told them that I said, "you're never gonna shock me."

I feel like we always had the green light to experiment.

At GVTV, that's such a safe place to try things.

And, you know, there's not a million dollar budget on the line, we can just

get in there and take a shot at something.

James, you've had to balance a lot, especially as you

talked about navigating COVID.

How do you find that balance between, helping the students, letting them

figure stuff out for themselves?

What has been your direction in that?

Well, boy, it is really hard to follow Kim and Len.

You put me in a bad spot here, Randy, because those guys woo.

They are good.

They are very, very good, great stories.

This is really an entertaining podcast to be a part of and

to listen to all at one time.

So, to answer your question, it's interesting because there's been

years, especially in the beginning, where, I think I poured myself into

it too much to the point where I was almost micromanaging students.

And I think, while that's good for a while to kind of get

them in the right direction.

I had to tell myself, I gotta back off here a little bit, they need to

be more in control of what's going on.

Then we got into the COVID era, and that was tough to balance.

But we had some students who really had the confidence of leadership

and they really thought that they're gonna be a station manager

who's gonna make a difference.

And so I said, "okay, I'll set you on the right path. I'll do those workshops when

you want me to come in, those periodic workshops. I will, come to your meetings,

in the e-board, have a little chat with them, set out some script show templates

for you, be at the pitch nights."

"Okay.

Yeah.

Sounds good.

But I think we got things from here." And then it would just sort of, drift

off and they'd be going okay for a while, and then it just drift off a little more.

And so I had to kind of come back around.

So, I just really discovered that after letting that happen,

you cannot just step back.

A little of, that's okay, but then you have to keep checking in.

You find out that just like young kids, students in our college don't

always tell you what they really mean.

They don't really tell you what's going on.

So it was a learning curve really, to answer your question.

And I think I'm still looking for that right balance.

I tend towards being much more involved in things.

And here's a take home message for you.

It's so difficult to find young people who are both willing and

able to be really good leaders.

It's just a hard thing to find and we should do better, I think,

at finding ways to encourage and develop leaders, young leaders.

Because when I see that person who is really the leader who can take

control of a student organization and bring it to the next level.

I am just in awe because you just don't see it that much.

We have to, do better at trying to develop leaders.

But now that we're kind of on the mend here.

from COVID I, and we're developing again, after really rough

recruitment year coming back.

We only had three students that were returning from Grand

Valley at our first meeting.

And we were like, "oh man, this is not good." So we had to do some

intense work and we got ourselves up now to almost 50 students in the club

with 28 of them actively involved in producing shows as early as next, week.

So we're doing well.

And it's a credit to the four E-board members who have worked harder

than any other e-board members I've seen since I've been there.

Cause they had to really, and they realized that, and they are good leaders.

We've got some wonderful students.

So maybe that's the exclamation point eventually here at the end of this is

that all the hard work that everyone has done, Kim and Len and others who

have worked for GVTV, it is really poised to be incredibly successful

here in the coming, months and year.

I think.

Hey, it's Randy.

We're taking a short break to tell you about the Morse-Cuppy

Film, Video, and Animation Study Abroad Endowed Scholarship.

The scholarship was established by Bill Cuppy with support from Deanna Morse to

help film, video, and animation students with the cost of studying abroad.

Alumnus Bill Cuppy talks about why he started the scholarship.

We created this scholarship because experiencing the world and other

cultures has been life-changing for us and we wanted students to

have a similar experience during this pivotal time in their lives.

Caroline Hamilton, the 2024 recipient of that scholarship, describes the

benefits of the support she received.

I'm a film video major and I have a German minor.

I've been studying German for about eight years now, and so I decided to

study abroad this past summer in Germany.

It definitely challenged me as a person.

I had to figure out how to do things and communicate and just

put me outta my comfort zone.

It introduces you to new things that you'd be afraid to experience because

you don't wanna embarrass yourself, but you have to just go for it.

The scholarship itself, just the almost permission to be

like, yes, go experience this.

Go learn, go see what happens, how this changes, how you see the world

and how you approach your work.

It took the pressure off of me a little bit to just be like, I can

experience this and not have to worry about everything else going on.

I can just go enjoy my time there and see what I can learn and grow from.

For more information, and to donate to the scholarship, visit

the link in the description.

Now back to the show.

Yeah.

I wanna go back to your comment about leadership.

I totally agree with you that it is important for us to work to

build leadership and lead leaders.

At the same time, I think it's really important for us to build followers.

People a lot of times, have their own ideas and they want to

execute those ideas, but are not necessarily in a position to do so.

So they need to really have the discipline and the attitude

that they can follow a leader.

So I think that's really hard to do sometimes.

And it's hard to let other people lead and for you to be a strong follower because

every leader needs a follower, right?

I mean, we need to have these people that are strong supporters of a project.

So not everyone can be the leader, but everyone can respect that leader

and work with that leader, to make things really churn in a good way.

And we've heard a lot of stories from students who talked about how

GVTV was a space for them to try to find where they fit in crews.

And stories of people who came in to Grand Valley thinking they were going to direct

and they actually figured out, "Hey, I really like lighting", or "I really like

editing." And a lot of that is GVTV again, is this place to experiment and to try

out who you are in a crew or a leader or a follower or, lighting or whatever it is.

Len, do you have ideas about this leadership and developing leaders,

followers, different types of roles?

There was a book that we did several years ago, a group of us around

the country, on college media.

And the chapter that I wrote was a case study.

It was while I was advising both radio and television.

And I sat down with a lot of our students on both sides.

And everything that's been said so far was echoed, it was students saying, we

love the opportunity to become leaders.

At the same time, we really don't know what we don't know and we really

need a strong role model to kind of point us in the right direction.

And I was fortunate to have some really, really good club presidents,

the whole time I was there.

The fun of student media is you get a new group usually every year to, let's

see how this group is going to work.

But there was always this sort of, "Can you show me some tips

and tricks for how to do this?"

And if I have to look back and say, well, what are you most proud of,

watching students who didn't know they could take on those responsibilities.

And I don't mean necessarily leading the whole club, but

running their corner of the club.

Like if they were a human resources person who dealt with keeping all the people in

line and all of the tech directors who would go through and say, I just wanna

make sure the equipment is still working.

And they got in charge of that area and made that area hum.

They weren't necessarily running the whole club, but they had

a very vital function to play.

And what I saw over the years is to be a successful member of a

board, you had to be both a leader and a follower at the same time.

You had to have both of those roles mastered.

You learn those roles and that's what helped you become a leader.

Exactly.

And the ones that were the best at it were the ones who knew when to step forward and

when to, go along and follow direction.

And that is not an easy skill.

I say this now as a Department Chair, it is hard to get faculty to do this.

They all have ideas for what they want to do.

Kim, you were a Chair, you know well how it can be.

I struggled the whole time I was at Grand Valley.

I never enjoyed being the follower so much, but I always was, up to the

task of supporting the bigger goal.

So that by the time I became a leader, I was very familiar with all the nuances or

most of the nuances of how it feels to not be heard or get assigned something that

you really didn't wanna do and you still want, the project to come into fruition.

So, like you're saying, you have to do all those things in order to become a leader.

As an advisor, I just took from my time being management and broadcasting, which

I did for the better part of 15 years.

I ran radio stations.

if I wasn't in charge, I was second in charge in markets as big as Chicago and

it's the exact same, running a, 50,000 watt radio station in Chicago and running

a student television station in Allendale.

Really, there's a lot of similarities in the way those are managed and run.

And I just wanted to bring those experiences in and make it as real as I

could for everybody who was part of it.

I think in my case, I have a broadcast background so being in a broadcast

studio is just like home to me.

One thing that you do find is that regardless of what your experience

is, it's really more about having the desire to really help students.

It's really about caring enough to see where their students are at and

where you can step in and help them.

And obviously having broadcast experience, professional experience really helps that.

But, I think it starts with having the desire to help students in getting to

know them on a more personal level than you would say in an academic classroom.

In terms of my broadcast experience and then also having students from other

majors, like even film and video there is a little bit of a difference there.

Because, a lot of film students, they're very talented, they're hungry

to go produce things and be creative, but they mostly want to take the

equipment out of the studio and go into the field and shoot on location.

And then they'll come back and they'll do their post.

Whereas in broadcast, really it's the other way around.

You're gonna shoot everything live or live on tape, live on disc, or you're

gonna stream it right from the studio.

And when you're done, baby, you are done.

And that's nice to be able to finish that.

But those are two different processes.

So it's been a little bit of a learning curve.

You never stop learning in this business.

And I learned a lot about, where the film students were in relation to the broadcast

students and learned to be as equitable as I could among everyone and really

encouraging them to still get involved in each other's types of productions.

Like, don't just be a film field shooter, try studio production.

And then likewise, the studio production people really wanted

them to get out there field with a film people and try some of that.

And that's where you start encountering some really unique relationships.

And you get to know people that aren't even in your major, but they share your

passion for filmmaking or for producing video but it's exciting when I start

talking about applying what I know just like we all do to something we love.

Yeah.

Well, and I, I just, I think that, you know, from 2000 to 2025, on this call

and such different backgrounds, and yet the organization had the same ethos yeah.

Like James, you talking about your, your television broadcast

background, Len's radio.

Uh, kim, your, art Institute background,

Yeah.

So a lot of the work that, I did both as an undergrad and a

graduate student was really about my own personal passion projects.

So this whole idea of being part of a crew and being part of a team was

not something that I did at all.

I was an independent video artist.

And so I was always fascinated by the creative content development.

How do we get from here to there?

I couldn't even begin to imagine doing a live, broadcast.

I would be a wreck.

I mean, that isn't something that I could have ever thought about

doing because everything would have to be so much more, developed and

perfect and thought through, right?

This whole idea of spontaneity, or leaving anything to chance would just terrify me.

Any kind of broadcasting just wasn't in my wheelhouse at all.

So I really didn't focus on it.

I focused on things I could do, which was advocate for space and advocate creativity

and to allow for that to develop.

So I loved being in for my office hours, students would come in from

GVTV and say, "Oh, we have this idea." And then we'd just go crazy.

Sometimes we'd just go out for pizza.

like, I can get out here.

Let's just go over to, Pinos and get a pizza and let's talk this through.

Those are the things that I really love doing is the concept of development.

Letting them throw ideas out and then, seeing where it all led.

You know, I'd like to just ask questions like, then what, then what, then what?

You know?

It's just those are the memories that I really enjoy.

Some of my best memories are some Of those pinos, jam sessions where

we were figuring out ideas like, you really did teach us like, here's a

framework on how to think through creative ideas and, you know, I still

use that today in my professional life.

Good.

I'm glad to hear that.

Well, thank you very much.

Len do you have any stories about how your background has

helped you, as a faculty advisor?

The only other thing I'd add is one of the things that I always tried to

impart when I was running the show, was reminding everybody that we're

all working towards the same goal.

And that made us necessarily a little more equal.

During the time I was the advisor GVTV I went from adjunct to visiting professor.

So I was in the classroom a lot more after that.

And I remember the first day of class, I forget what class it was I

was teaching, but there were a lot of GVTV people that were in that class.

And we get to the first class and I said, "Does anybody have any questions?" And

one of them just stopped and said, "I don't know how to address you." And I

said, "I'm sorry?" He said, "Well, you kind of make it very clear in the club

that you're one of us." And I'm like, "Well, I am one of you in the club.

Here, it's a little different."

But I wanted everybody to understand that came directly from my time in radio.

I was fortunate in many ways to sort of be a, the Forest Gump of

radio in that I was in situations in radio stations with people I had no

business being on air staffs with.

Like four of the people I worked with are in the National Radio Hall of Fame,

like I do not belong on that list.

These were people who were legendary performers and what I took away

from each and every one of them was how accessible they were.

I started a job once in Chicago.

I was coming in as the Assistant Program Director, so I was number

two in charge of the department.

And this legendary hall of fame broadcaster appeared in my office door the

next Monday and very calmly stuck out his hand and say "Hi, I wanted to introduce

myself. I do the morning show." This was a guy I grew up listening to with a radio

under my pillow when I was five years old.

I'm like, I know damn well who you are.

But he did not come in with the ego and that stayed with me.

Leave the egos at the door.

And that was something I always tried to impart.

These people who are very famous people can work together and do

this, then certainly those of us on a college campus can do it.

And I always tried to make it a very egalitarian, approach.

And I think that is something that I took from being in the pros as long as I was.

I really saw that in my time there as a goal that we had.

Although, we didn't always reach that, you know, sometimes our egos

weren't checked at the door and there were some conflicts that the faculty

advisors had to help us out with.

Could you talk a little bit about mediating some conflicts or if there

are multiple leaders happening, what is a faculty advisor's role

in a club like GVTV and figuring out how to mediate some of that?

One model that I did change was eboards used to be elected, and it was sort

of like, the people would pick the ones they wanted in different roles.

And what I noticed was happening was people that were popular, were being

selected, but they might not have been going into the right job for them.

Kim left me an amazingly great organization compared to what I got

when I got student radio, student radio.

Well, the first thing I had to do, well, there were two students

who were there who weren't even students, and I had to evict them.

Like, "You don't go here. You can't be here." It was a mess.

But the big thing I noticed was that six people on e-board had the title manager,

and they did not know who answered to who.

So I said, all right, here's what we're gonna do.

We're gonna put a little structure in.

And I tried something with radio where I said we're gonna pick a station

manager, and then I want the manager to go through and hire the E-board with the

understanding that you are now responsible for the performance of these people.

So don't just put your friends in there because they're gonna have to deliver.

And the second year I over GVTV I said let's try this.

And what ended up happening was people did a little application process,

here's the job I am most interested in.

And what I found is we were getting people in roles who were

genuinely passionate, like the tech people wanted to be tech people.

Everybody knew what their role was supposed to be.

And the thing I noticed is we eliminated a lot of that

conflict that you're describing.

I really didn't have to deal with it much because the group sort of, policed itself,

it was a very fortunate circumstance.

I don't even think there was an instance where we had to remove an e-board member.

People just knew to work together.

And I do remember one year, it was the last meeting of the year and the new

E-board had just been selected and they came up to me and they said, "Hey, good

news, we're all getting an apartment together in the fall." And I said, "Hey,

that is the worst idea I've ever heard."

And they were like, " We thought you'd be excited." I said, "No,

I did that when I was in college.

I know how this is gonna end." And sure enough, about a month into that fall,

I had the students come to my office, "Will you talk to, so and so?" "Nope.

They're your roommate, man.

You dug yourself a hole here.

I am not getting involved in this." Right?

I used to tell students when I would do academic advising, I

don't get involved in the money.

And when I would be in media advising, I'd say, I don't get involved in the

roommates or girlfriends or boyfriends.

That's your own thing.

I am not getting into this drama.

Oh, that was my favorite part.

I love that.

I match maked all the time.

You have more the temperament for it than me,

I did, I set people up on dates and I, yeah, I'm terrible.

I think it's good that I'm gone now 'cause I'm not of this age anymore.

'Cause things were way looser when I was around.

They're still pretty loose.

I mean, we still have a good, don't you know?

Yeah.

It's still pretty loose.

James, these ideas of mediating conflicts as a faculty advisor, was

that something you've had to deal with as you're, rebuilding after COVID

Thankfully, no.

I've really not.

But the organization that was passed on to me from Len was in great shape.

And I think one of the things that really helps a lot, and that people would

probably roll their eyes at, but still having a student handbook that was up to

date and everybody had to read and even sign it to acknowledge the fact that

you were going to abide by these rules.

I know as crazy as that sounded, it actually works.

And we really haven't had students have any kind of major conflicts.

There's been a few things that have happened in-house, a few

misunderstandings where I had to step in.

The only thing that, we have experienced has been sort of on

the negative side of things is, carelessness with equipment sometimes.

I remember a story, it was just a heartbreaking story just as I took over.

It was probably 2019, going into the 2020 COVID year, and we had just

purchased three new Canon 90 Ds, which at that time was state of the art.

Those are great cameras and bought some really nice lenses

that were a lot of money.

And I'll never forget the very first time one of the students, who happened to also

be an e-board member, took out the camera.

He was on 48th to Lake Michigan Drive, and he turned and he thought out of

the corner of his eye, he saw something fall off the back of his trunk.

He had forgotten to put the bag inside the car.

it was on the top of the car in the back, and he couldn't see it until it flew off.

And he, he looked back in horror just in time to see a car roll right

over the lens and smash the camera.

Oh...

And he came to me shaking.

I mean, this poor guy was just so upset.

And so we had to work through that one.

And that was quite a deal because you know, you wanna be able to

say, "Hey, hey, it's okay." But on the other hand, it's not okay,

Mm-hmm.

And we have to talk about reparations for this and blah, blah, blah.

So we got through it.

That was, fairly intense.

But you can't believe how careful everybody was with the camera equipment.

Props to the student though, for not just shoving it in a cabinet and pretending

like, I don't know how this happened.

I mean, they owned it.

He did the right thing.

That's for sure.

Kim, did you wanna talk at all about, some of the strategies or, the ways that

you helped mediate, conflict in GVTV?

I think It's been so long and I don't carry a lot of that stuff with

me, so I don't remember anything.

There's just little things that would come up but they were always really

good about coming to my office and saying, "I'm just really struggling."

And then I try to get two people in the room and we say, "What's your point?"

"What's your point?" And " Can you see their point?" "Can you see their point?"

Just kind of work those things out.

I didn't, I don't remember any really big, drama situations.

Yeah.

One of the things I really wanted to make sure to mention, especially

if anyone's listening and thinking about joining GVTV I'm Facebook

friends with a lot of former students.

So, the cool thing about this is that, that's many, many years ago that I was

the advisor and I still watch their lives.

They're having children, they're getting married, they're doing all kinds of

things, in their careers and all of that.

And I just love watching all that.

But what I love is that when they post something on Facebook, all these

people, all these names come up where there's all these likes and hearts.

They have remained lifelong friends.

The friendships that are developed at GVTV are like none other, because

over four years or three years, whenever you join GVTV, those people

really grow together and those friendships have lasted a lifetime.

And I'm just, it warms my heart whenever I see all these people liking the comments

and the updates and things like that.

I'll second that too, because I'm probably not as well connected as Kim

is, but I have the same sort of thing where I see the posts from the alums

and I have the added, experience of the fact that GVTV caused me to become

an ordained minister because I married two of the alums at their request.

It's so beautiful.

I love that, Len.

And that was in 2018, I believe, right as I was stepping out of the club.

And one of the things that was neat about Mackenzie and Erin's wedding

was it was also a GVTV reunion.

They all got together and it was just so good to see everybody.

It had been years since I'd seen them in some cases, you know, some

of the folks were from my first year in, in 2012 and they had graduated

and I hadn't seen them since.

And it's just an amazing connection from that.

So you do become part of their lives and it continues and continues And I think

I just did my sixth wedding this summer.

So yeah now I'm still doing this now, so it's like, oh, this is fantastic.

Good for you.

It's cool.

They are truly lifelong bonds.

As we're wrapping up here, I do want to, think about, how you talk about GVTV as

a benefit to the university to students.

You know, if you're talking to parents, how is GVTV an asset to a

student that would be a part of it?

What I tell students is this, if you wanna be really successful in the Journalism

Broadcasting a Digital Media major, or Film and Video, or whatever you're in, if

you really wanna be successful at whatever you do, you can't just go through school

like everybody else is and go to all the classes and work as hard as you can

because everybody else is gonna do that.

You get involved student media, and you are instantly positioning yourself

for success when you graduate.

And the reason why is because you're getting experience, you're building

that portfolio, you're networking with people who are potentially

gonna be your professional peers.

So all of that taken together is a powerful case for joining student media

in general and GVTV in particular.

I mean, they're failing forward.

Right?

When they fail, they're learning.

It's so beautiful.

You're right on James.

I've told parents, when I've met with prospective students, my own story.

And that is I am a product of student media.

Had it not been for my ability to be doing radio productions and television

productions as a student 30... years ago, I never would've gone that way.

I was a pre-med major when I went to college.

I had to sit my parents down after two weeks, when I realized

I am going the wrong path.

I had to sit them down and say, "Look, I am not going to be a doctor. I am going

to do this instead. I feel as though I am pulled to do this." And believe

me, they were not thrilled at first but eventually they came around on that.

Had it not been for those experiences I had outside of the classroom where

there was no grade attached, like Kim said, you fail forward and you take those

chances and it's from those experiences, you get better and better and better.

Had I not had those experiences, I wouldn't have been able to have

the career I did, which then led to me being able to teach students.

So I, I

just, stress the vital importance.

I just gotta say this, Len.

With a voice like yours, you were born to be in broadcast, but had you ever been

my doctor giving me really bad news with that voice would've been very comforting.

Your voice was meant to be heard.

I'm glad you went into broadcasting, but I could see you as a doctor with

beautiful bedside manner, so that wouldn't have been so bad either.

Kim, we have your test results.

How cool is that?

But I do mean that.

That's how I sell not just of GVTV, but student media anywhere.

It is such a vital experience to get while you were in college.

And, you know, frankly, students have paid for it right?

So, take advantage of everything you've paid for when you're a

student, it's there for you use it.

Kim, did you have anything to add on that before I, wrap up

with our last question here?

Just do it.

You will never regret it.

will serve you for the rest of your life.

I literally got my job in broadcasting because I had GVTV shows on my

resume and they said, you did all of this as, and at the time I was

a sophomore, and I was like, yep.

But, alright, so GVTV coming up on 20 years, looking forward to the

next 20 years what do you wanna see for the next 20 years and what do

you want students to carry forward?

I am gonna go out on a limb and say, James is really looking forward to

passing that baton onto a person looking for his or her tenure.

James, how off am I there?

Would I like to see somebody take on this wonderful opportunity and move it forward?

Yes.

I think, here's the other thing to think about as we're talking about

where we want to be in the future, is that, just like the e-board and the,

the leadership changes every year.

I think periodically it is a good thing for faculty to move from one area of

interest that they dedicate themselves to and see growth in, and then go to another

one to continue their own development.

And GVTV has been all about growth whether we're talking about the students

or you're talking about faculty I think growth is, the organization.

I did mean that really genuinely, I know it sounds funny.

Yeah, let's get rid of this baton.

But truly it is a gift when you hand that baton to the next faculty, it

is a gift to that faculty and the

students.

And everybody brings a little something different to it.

That's the beauty of the whole thing.

Well, I've really learned that in this conversation.

Each of the three of you have added a lot.

For myself, where would I like to see GVTV?

I would love to see it continue to grow in a couple of specific areas.

I would like to see GVTV grow into regular studio production that happens

every single day, and I don't think we're really that far away from it.

We've got the right crew and definitely the right equipment.

We are definitely positioned to do a lot of studio type production and now

we have also acquired a mobile unit.

So we got a grant, from the Grand Rapids College Channel folks, and we

were able to purchase equipment and then acquire a brand new trailer.

And now we're in the process of putting that all together.

In fact, I have a meeting on Wednesday with Bill Cuppy to

check out his mobile unit.

We're gonna pattern this after that because one of the things that

students would like to do is sports.

And so there's all of this opportunity of collaborating with other club sports and

actually being their live sports channel.

So that's something exciting that I'd like to see us go into.

And then the last thing is I really want us to get more

into doing that live streaming.

Do some events that are live and maybe partner with the Whale, so we could do

some simulcast and things like that.

So, in short, those are some of the things that I'd like to see us do.

Len, what are you, looking forward to in the next 20 years?

Any media outlet that survives in the current climate is doing something right.

I have been fortunate enough to serve on some national boards in college media.

And for the College Media Association I was the Chair of the broadcast committee

for four or five years, and the number of universities that have had to fold their

media outlets as they have to make a cut here in a cut there is really staggering.

So my first wish is that it actually be here.

And if it does that, it has done well.

The other thing I would say would be important would

be engaging with the alums.

Just from alums that I do hear from, I know they want to be a

part and see what's going on.

I was very fortunate two years ago to go back to my undergrad's radio reunion.

It was our 50th for that radio station.

And people came from all over the country for it.

And the current students were sitting there just wanting to hear the stories

and we wanted to hear their stories.

We were more interested in like, what's it like now?

I mean for me like, how do you even do this with the way it is now?

We were all just fascinated to hear.

I know there's a lot of alums that would first of all, they wanna see it

do well and they want to see it prosper.

Those are also the connections that the current students can have for when, what

are they gonna do when this is all done?

There are probably some alums who wouldn't mind hiring some fresh alums

to work on a project here and there.

And I think that's an amazing networking opportunity that I'd love to see

continue to grow, as we go forward.

All right, Kim, take us home.

Last words here.

What do you wanna see in the future?

What are you happy that you've seen?

Well, James, you have me so pumped with what's happening there.

I'd like to see GVTV serve the community more.

One of the things about Grand Rapids that is so special is that there are so

many volunteers I mean, it's one of the highest rated in terms of volunteerism.

One of the things that I always have loved is the alternative spring break

at Grand Valley, where people volunteer their time across the country and

do things and go to these places.

I'd really love to see that be a goal that you pick about four or five or

so of these alternative spring breaks, and there's those reporting on the

generosity of our students and how they're serving the community, how

they're serving the country, maybe even the world if they go even further.

But also there's just so much opportunity just within the Grand Rapids community

just to show how valuable Grand Valley is to the community, how important

it is to Michigan, how important the Grand Valley is to the country.

So I'd like to see more of what James is talking about, where we take these

trucks, and we record these beautiful stories of our students helping and

also people in the community helping.

I would just love to put more focus on how important media is to the

community and, Grand Valley is there.

Grand Valley's everywhere, so let's show it.

That's our job,

Couldn't have said it any better.

Thank you so much Kim, Len, and James.

And before we all sign off here, I just really wanna, say thank you for setting

this all up and, giving us this laboratory of creativity where we can, not only,

experiment, like we do in class, but we can, experiment with, bureaucracy

and we can, try out new things.

And, creating something new every day and it's something that will live on in ways

that, maybe classwork doesn't always.

So just thank you for all the work you've put in all those, late nights

starting at 9:00 PM , I really appreciate all the work the three of

you put in and I know, on behalf of all of Grand Valley students and alumni,

thank you for Grand Valley Television.

it was an honor to be a part of this history.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Alumni Live: The Podcast.

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