Siddo Dwyer: [00:00:00] Yeah, welcome to The Better Places podcast, the show where we talk to the people shaping the future of our towns and cities. I'm your host, SDU dwi, and today we're joined by Councilor Grace Williams. Welcome Grace. Thank you. Uh, she's the leader of the London Borough of Wolf and Forest, and Deputy Chair of London Councils and holding the housing and Regeneration executive member brief.

Uh, both in forest is a borough that's become a case study in bold design led regeneration. Cultural first investment and housing delivery that puts communities at its heart. Grace has led the council since 2021 after serving five years as cabinet member for children, young people, and families. She began her career as a secondary school teacher in uh, east London, and leads to work as a community organizer in William Morris Ward.

Which she represents, uh, that local people First Mindset has shaped her leadership ever since. In this episode, we're gonna talk about what it takes to lead regeneration in the borough, uh, with both inner and out London characteristics. [00:01:00] Uh, from tall buildings in Walham, Stowe, and Black Hall Lane, uh, to the Soho Theater in Walham Stow, the Town Hall q, which we're recording today.

Uh, pocket Living, other, the housing types and, and products and the borough's. Long stand. Long term, even local plan. This is a conversation about ambition, design, trust, and identity. Welcome. Thank you so much. Uh, and it thank you so much for taking the time, uh, to meet us and, um, Salvatore and I who, uh, have come down, uh.

Come up even to often. So, uh, uh, to, to record this, um, we're marveling at the amazing town center, um, that you have here. And I wonder if you could tell us a bit about you, your borough, um, and what's inspired this incredible development here. Yeah, of course. And thank you really, um, glad to be part of this.

Grace Williams: Um, yeah, so a bit about me. Um, I've been council leader for about four and a half years. Um, and, uh. For me, the reason I [00:02:00] became a counselor was I had children. And I started hanging around the local park and the local children's centers and realized then, you know, how vital it is that, uh, counselors really did understand their community.

Um, so for me it was really about that kind of local thing of wanting to improve my neighborhood. And I remember I met a really good counselor at the time and she somehow sort of groomed me into it without me knowing. Um, they always seem to draw you in. It's they draw, they draw you. Can you knock on this door or can you Yeah.

Local government draws you in because local government is just completely fascinating. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I think that people probably still don't understand the sheer depth and breadth of the things we are doing from children's services to bins to housing. To weddings, to adult social care. The, you know, the list is endless.

And that's what I really love about this role. You know, for me, my first [00:03:00] career was actually in central government, um, doing social policy and research Yeah. Under a new labor government and setting that gender. Um, and then as you said, as a teacher. And what I, what I love about this role is it combines both things.

It's like strategy and it's also getting out there, rolling your sleeves up. Working with residents, um, to understand their problem and to come up with practical solutions. So that's what has got me hooked on local government. Um, and as you say, yeah, we're sitting in an amazing place. This is, um. A town hall that was built in 1940, so right in the middle of the war.

Um, and, uh, when 10 years ago, this was, uh, a council building, which was very beautiful, but the fountains were very different outside. They were a good metaphor. So the fountain used to be somewhere we kept children out. It'd be like, don't fall in the fountain. We had like, uh, this row of kind of rose bushes around it to keep people out.

When we [00:04:00] renovated the town hall in 2021, which was kind of powered by new housing, which is on this site, we wanted to create a fountain, which said to people, come here, it's yours. Um, and you come here in winter, but if you were here in summer, there'd be thousands of kids outside in that fountain. And I think that's a really good metaphor for.

What it is we're trying to do here in Walham Forest.

Siddo Dwyer: Well, indeed, and I've, I have to say, although some council buildings and um, estates are kind of, um, nestled in by housing, you actually have housing here on site and it seems like you're lead in the way in, in many respects around how you can, um, manage those two.

I wonder if you could go into perhaps a bit more detail around, um, what the thinking was behind having housing here on site. What your plans are for the campus.

Grace Williams: Yeah, so one of the things that's really important for Walham Forest and you know, you mentioned our kind of like being known for the type of regeneration that we do is [00:05:00] that, um, I guess I'd start by saying like the rest of London, we are in housing crisis, so you know, we are in a situation where we can see daily, uh.

Are residents struggling with a housing crisis where many are on our housing list, they're waiting for accommodation, they're in overcrowded accommodation, or they're in temporary accommodation, which is just absolutely terrible for families. You know, it means, uh, not being able to have a place to call your own, not being able to have a place to play or to study.

Really big problems for families trying to negotiate schools and employment. So we are determined and we have been determined for many years to be completely pro-housing because we need to build those new homes for people. Um, so Fellowship Square is an example of that, where what we wanted to do was provide.

Housing to alleviate the crisis, but also upgrade the [00:06:00] facilities for our staff. So we've had social workers and housing team mm-hmm. Coming back here delivering from, uh, fellowship Square. Um, and I think the thing is, is, you know, we are hearing a lot of the moment, aren't we about, and I'm involved a lot in, you know, how does the government get house building going and how does it do it in a way that focuses on building more affordable homes?

What we've done in Wolf and Forest is led on, uh, council delivery of homes. Um, and I think that's the thing that I'm most proud of and,

Siddo Dwyer: and on, um, so much to, to unpack there, but really. Got intrigued around your, um, London Council's role and, and how you're, you're looking to unlock development. So you mentioned there that, um, Northern Forest is certainly one of a few councils still doing council led development.

Yeah. I wonder, um, how you have found that opportunity. Also, some of the challenges there, um, in, in delivering. Uh, council led [00:07:00] regeneration.

Grace Williams: Yeah. So it is really difficult. So I'm really proud of our track record. So we have built 1,643 new homes, 63% of those are affordable. Wow. That's really impressing now.

That is not the norm across London. Um, and you know, we could talk a bit about how we've done that, but the other news we've just had from inside housing is we are now top of the whole league table nationally, not only in London. For building homes. So we built 482 homes Wow. In 24, 25. And we're doing that against a backdrop of the most challenging housing market that we've seen.

I'm sure. You know. So I think for us, the way that we've done it is we've been completely clear for about, I'd say about 10 years at the very least. That housing was our top priority. Um, and we have tried all kinds of things to get that housing. So, you know, we've developed our, um, our own, we [00:08:00] had our own company, 60 Brick, which, um, gave us a, a really good amount of housing.

On small, um, council loan sites, but then the market changed. Mm-hmm. And that was no longer working for us. So we try all kinds of models. So we are doing direct delivery, which is enabling us to bring forward some larger housing estates, um, for example. But we also know how to get a good deal from developers, so, you know, which is really important.

You know, it's not, we have different interests as develop developers and councils. We share the interest in house building. But we are really clear what it is that we are trying to get out of that. Um, and that's enabled us to maintain that level of affordability. Um, and we are proactive about going into partnerships with developers like countryside on this site, knowing what we want to get out of it, uh, but also having a viable site.

For that developer. So I think it's about flex, it's about partnership. We work really closely with the Great London Authority, [00:09:00] have been amazing actually, to adapt their grant to the kinds of projects that we are trying to do, um, to get over that viability gap that we're all facing. But I don't like deny the challenge is getting harder and harder and you know, we can see that in the housing starts and completions across London.

So it is really about like. How do we work through those most challenging circumstances, but keep focusing on the fact that if we can't address the housing crisis, we cannot create better lives for our residents.

Siddo Dwyer: And that's a really impressive record. I think it's commendable the work that, uh, often first is doing not only with your partners, uh, like the GLA and developers, um, bringing forward those new homes.

Hope you, you'll forgive me in, in asking this, but the government and the mayor's new 20% affordable housing. Uh, fast track has stirred up quite a lot of debate. I wonder what your view is and do you feel like it helps or perhaps hinders your, um, ambitions?

Grace Williams: Yeah, no, it's a really good question. The question everyone's talking about.[00:10:00]

So firstly, I know that the labor government, the labor mayor and labor councils are completely focused on the fact we've gotta addresss the housing Absolutely. Crisis. So everyone's on the same page. On that. I think the problem is if we look at the housing problems we've got in this country, they are as old as me.

I'm nearly 50, I'll be 50 in a year's time. You know, if you look over 50 years, what's happened is things like, um, the amount that. Council as a building has gone down the amount we're paying on housing benefit to subsidize private landlords has gone up. So the money's there, money's being used by government, but in the wrong place.

We also have obviously like the double, triple whammy of what is it? Brexit, Liz Trust a housing market where over time, uh, housing wealth is concentrated in the hands of fewer people. Um, so, you know, council tax bans don't [00:11:00] work anymore. Does stamp duty work? You know, what are the, what the economics around that, what are the economics around, uh, people being able to afford homes in London?

You know, we know that as well as on the supply side. People are not buying the private, uh, new homes that are available. So there's a, it's the whole thing. It's a perfect storm. It's the perfect storm. It's a massive problem. So that's the situation that government is facing. So government is looking at that and thinking, what can we do to get.

Uh, home building going, and I really appreciate the way that government and the mayors lent into that. Um, at the moment, London Councils and each London borough will be looking at what's the impact of that change going to be. And actually I think it will vary quite a lot across London. So if you, if you take the argument that, you know, 20% of something is better than 35% of nothing.

The What you need to do is you need to [00:12:00] test that. You need to test it against what's in the pipeline, what impact it might have in delaying things that are in the pipeline. And I think the thing that, you know, I'm agnostic and I, I think we will work through, will be really professional work through what we need to deliver social and affordable homes that the government wants us to do.

Um, but one of the issues I think with it is that this government has been, has made a massive investment, is social affordable housing grant has billions of pounds. Fantastic. But I think what this might mean is more of that money being used by private developers. Who don't have such a good track record in delivering that housing.

And what I would like to see is local authorities given as much of that social and affordable housing grant as possible because we have the track record delivering that. Um, so I think it's really about how that. Program is used. And uh, also one of the things that's really important [00:13:00] is it changes the way we can use community infrastructure levy as well.

So that's the money we get to basically build infrastructure. And it's really important, isn't it? You talked before about like, you know, how you bring your residents with you. Our existing residents need to know that when we build new housing, it means new infrastructure and there's something for them.

Siddo Dwyer: Some, something for them and where they can go and, and, and play their part. Uh, in, in that local community that's being built. Um, and actually that's a great segue even into, uh, Soho Theater, which I know is something that you, uh, are very, very keen on and, and, um, have looked to fondly. Um, I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about it, what it means, um, for you, the council and your residents.

Grace Williams: Absolutely. Um, yeah, so Soho Theater, uh, when I moved to the borough 20 years ago, uh, I think at that stage it was. It was closed. It used to be a cinema, and it had gradually over time [00:14:00] sort of become sort of underused because it's a massive 19. Thirties cinema, which we don't use that anymore, do we? It's like Netflix and you know, whatever else it has killed that.

So campaigners quite rightly, didn't want that space to be, uh, to be derelict or used by a church which had had bought it. And at the same time, the council was determined that we took that. We took that place and made it something really groundbreaking. So we started to look at that, um, as we became the first London Borough of Culture.

And basically our hypothesis was, um, if we could regenerate, uh, Soho Theater, we would be able to bring in a top operator like Soho Theater. Um, and we would also be able to change the Town Center Councils fueling their own regeneration and making a change to their. Town centers. Um, and I dunno if you've been there yet, hopefully soon.

Siddo Dwyer: I haven't. I know it's such a landmark, but [00:15:00] I'd love to. I'd love to, to go and see a show soon. Oh, I certainly will. And I, I think culture and I, uh. I think culture is certainly something that, um, ham Forest is very, um, loud and proud about, whether it's your, uh, walking Streets or the Village is, it's, it's known as a, a place in, in, in London where, um, people flop to whether it's to move in, um, or, or just to spend time with their friends and, and on that.

Uh, ow. Also black horse, uh, road, oh, sorry. Black Horse Lane are areas that have seen quite a lot of, um, new development. And I think it's fair to say that it's stirred a lot of debate around some of the tall buildings there. I wonder what your vision is for growth in, in those parts of the borough that are well connected, um, and.

Uh, what's your argument to, to residents who, um, perhaps, um, are, are, are still to come with you on that journey?

Grace Williams: Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, um, I think my [00:16:00] first job sort of in cabinet was. Looking at development and how we brought people along with our vision for development. And so this was going back about seven years when we did that.

There was quite a lot of, you know, you know, why should, why should we be regenerating the borough? But I think that's really changed over this period. And I think what's changed is that it's really clear to anyone in our borough, a resident, you know, who's got, uh, a young person in their family. Um, for example, who can't, um, get, can't access affordable housing, that there is a housing crisis.

So people understand that we do need to build housing and they also understand that we've got a track record in building affordable and social homes. I think they. What we have made the argument for is we do need density because density brings opportunity. So if we build high, um, in, [00:17:00] in a way that's amenable with that town center, we can provide benefits, um, that, uh, that we couldn't on a lower density build.

So things like how we've begun the process of rebuilding, um. The, uh, station, uh, for Walham. So for example, but the other thing is we need the homes. So the development, um, in Walham, so is a really good example of that. Um, the scene development, um, because we've been able to build like, uh, we've been able to work with developers who are building to rent.

So, you know, we know that part of the market that's broken in London is those affordable. High quality rental property. Absolutely. Um, and some of those were available to key workers as well, quite a number of them. So. I think it is always gonna be something we have to explain and discuss with residents.

You know, if you live here, you might worry that you, you know, you don't want your skyline to change, you don't want your view to change. [00:18:00] But we know that our residents really, really need those homes and we know it's good for the other things we've been talking about. So by building homes, we have more money that we can spend on culture, um, and opportunities in the area.

And I think that. Wolf and STO and black horse are really good examples of that. So at the moment. The standard building which is being built, which is like a co-living space with a really big music venue in, and that was something our community wanted to retain. And building the housing has enabled an operator to come in and and do that music venue.

So the two things go hand in hand, you know, regeneration. Housing. Um, it, it's getting, it's making sure that we have the right mix of those things mm-hmm. So that we create really livable neighborhoods for people.

Siddo Dwyer: Absolutely. And Black Horse Lane has changed quite a lot. It's now home, uh, to makers, brewers and artists.

How, how much of that evolution was organic, do you think, and how much. [00:19:00] Uh, has the council helped to steer it?

Grace Williams: Yeah, so I think coming in, you know, this administration coming in 10, 15 years ago could see that they had an amazing community of makers there. So a good example of those people is Anna Cock, um, who, um, is a renowned artist who died actually, really sadly, um, I'm sorry, last year.

And she and other people like her came in and. Wanted to make that neighborhood that had become a sort of dilapidated, old fashioned industrial area into something that was more, um, that was more current and was around culture. And the council supported that. So, you know, we, we, uh, worked with them to, um, to, to actually lease some of those industrial spaces for artistic use.

And that's really, you know, got underway. So it's, it's, it's a kind of. Yeah, it's the organic, there are makers there [00:20:00] and creatives there, and then it's how we work with them mm-hmm. To make sure that we are fueling it further. So we've been able to support several brewery businesses there, um, because we've made those spaces available.

So it's kind of both is the answer.

Siddo Dwyer: No, absolutely. And I think protecting industries as housing certainly ramps up is sort of how you can allow for that. Uh, there's two things to work in tandem, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you, you just touched on, um, co-living, which I pleased that you have because we've seen a lot of new student and co-living, um, schemes, uh, kind of cropping up across London on what your take is on these models and, um, do you think that they're part of the solution?

Grace Williams: Yeah. So, um, Walham Forest is one of those very, or has been one of those very unusual boroughs. In that we didn't have our own university. Um, and that's something that we have, um, developed. So we've got a partnership with University of, uh, [00:21:00] Portsmouth. They have first campus here, and that means a bit of student accommodation, although student com, you know, student intake has changed.

We draw lots of people from the local community, um, as well as those from further afield. But my view is that. Uh, student accommodation should remain, uh, an important but small part of the market. Yeah, totally. Um, you know, so it has to be proportionate. It has to be in the right places. It can create opportunity in the right places.

But, you know, I know having a, a 16-year-old that as a parent, we have seen those. Um, costs around student accommodation really rock. Um, and we need to make sure that it is a, a regulated market that's serving our young people and young people from anywhere else, um, around the country. Absolutely. And while it's, um, it's great that they've got some of the international students, um.

Coming, uh, to the [00:22:00] uk, uh, to be educated, but to spend, um, their, their time and, and their intellectual capital here, but also having a place for, um, lots of, um, people, uh, native people Yeah. Who've also lived here Absolutely. For a long time. Um. And on that, I mean, Walham Forest is such an incredibly diverse, uh, community.

Uh, how are you making sure that development, investment, uh, serving everyone, especially, uh, communities that are sometimes overlooked? Yeah, so I mean, it goes back to where we started the conversation about the housing crisis. We are a borough, like other London boroughs and like many places in the country where there's growing inequality.

So that inequality you've seen in housing is replicated in health. In education, in income, and it has to remain our burning ambition to address. Those inequalities quite right. So it come, so it comes back to what you're doing that regeneration for, you know, we are doing regeneration and building social and affordable homes to address [00:23:00] that inequality.

Um, and it means work, making sure that the proceeds of growth work hard for our community. So some examples of that are, we've used the proceeds of that growth to create. Um, 25 new green spaces, including two new parks. We opened up the wetlands, for example, which used to be a private site owned by 10 water.

I'm keeping know of all of these different attractions you see. It's a good one. But also using the proceeds of growth to build new health hubs, which is a really big part of the new government agenda and neighborhood health, for example. Um, so that's important. And then it's also about getting social value.

So whenever we do any kind of development like. Soho Theater or the new, the, the cinema. I still call it new. It's not new. 10 years. 10 years old. The, the cinema that we built 10 years ago or whether it's um, how we do development in, uh, the town center with the [00:24:00] mall. It's getting local jobs and it's having opportunities for local, young people to be involved in, um, those projects.

So the other thing we've been really good at is. We got the highest amount of leveling up money, um, from, from the government in London. And we are using that to improve our neighborhoods. Um, and that means that we can work really closely with children and young people in the area. A good example is, you know, working with a housing state in, in an area in the north of the borough where it's about improving their accessibility to the town center.

So it has to be fretted through everything you do. You know, how are you gonna put. The proceeds from housing and regen to good use to address either the housing crisis, which is a central thing, or any of the other inequalities that exist in our area. Yeah. And do you, you've of course, led on some great youth engagement and engagement with residents, uh, across the borough.

How do you think, um, [00:25:00] co-designing spaces, um, can, can play a part in, in some of your aspirations there? And what have you learned? Um, from bringing, uh, more and more residents into the conversation? Yeah, that's a really good question. So, as you said before, I was cabinet member for children, young people for five years, and before that was a secondary English teacher.

So I came to this role knowing how amazing are young people. Um, our, and uh, you know, sometimes I'll meet one of my ex-students, um, around the place and they'll come up to me and they'll be like six foot something high and they'll say, miss, do you remember me? You know, I'm working in, I think last. I'm working in Price Waterhouse Cooper or whatever, and it's always an amazing moment.

You know, our young people have like unlimited potential and you touch before on universities. We did. We did this really big piece of work called the Life Chances Commission, and we had independent experts, educationalists community leaders part as part of that. And what we found out is our young people, they don't [00:26:00] have a limit on their ambition, but there's a limit.

On the opportunities that they're being, um, presented with. So the work that you are talking about started with this thing called the Big Conversation. And what that big conversation was, was our young people talking to us about what those barriers were to their ambition and what we could do to change them.

And a big thing that came from that was that. Over the years, um, government funding for youth activities have really gone down and we have worked really hard to build that back into our budget. And it isn't easy, you know, because we do not have, uh, the money to balance our budget at the moment. But we've been able to build in working with incredible set of youth providers.

That do not do, you know, you heard, hear that weird phrase, diversion reactivity. We need to create diversion reactivity for young people. They normally say something like table tennis. Well, as a young [00:27:00] person. Mm-hmm. Which I think you still are, but you know, I'm indeed young. I'm not for you. Just, yeah. You know, young people want proper things to do that are gonna change their lives.

So the work we did with those youth providers are things like. How can we help, um, youth entrepreneurs set up their own businesses? How can we work with this amazing organization called Cooch so that they can actually do their own, uh, recording, podcasting, filming, and then we can contract for them to do that work?

It's giving young people real things to do to build their lives. Um, and so it only helps us because they are there building these incredible things, um, which are improving their life chances, and it makes a difference to how we think about the challenges facing us so that young people are included in those decisions.

Thank you

Siddo Dwyer: so much. And that's such an optimistic, uh. Sell, I think for, for your borough. And, and, and as we close, uh, couple questions, uh, for you. [00:28:00] So if, if we could walk through Walham Forest in 2035, which, uh, uh, 10 years away, um, what do you want us to see and feel, uh, captures your legacy as leader?

Grace Williams: So I think that, um, our local plan is really ambitious.

It includes an incredible amount of, like, council directly delivering homes. It includes, um, areas of opportunity. So, you know, it will look different because we will have, uh, neighborhoods which are thriving, um, and being built on that, on the proceeds of growth that that is happening. Again, I'm hoping the growth's happening again at that.

Stage in this country. But I think the thing that would feel different is that people would feel included. They would know what the opportunities were and they would be able to use them. Um, and they, they would feel a sense of togetherness because all the problems we are talking about doesn't matter, you know, if it's climate change or [00:29:00] housing or community safety, we can't solve these things alone.

So it would be a community where people. We'll talk to their neighbors and get involved in doing stuff. And you know, this is the friendliest borough anyway, in London. You can't walk down the road without people saying hello and giving you their two penif worth. So it would be building on that, you know, that foundation of like working together, um, to achieve change regardless of the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Mm. And what keeps you optimistic about the role of local government in shaping. Um, a space that you love to call home. What keeps me optimistic is that local government, as I said, it's like it's about finding the answers to things together. It's about rolling up your sleeves and saying, okay, there's a problem.

How are we gonna work on it together? And so in the end, it is the people that I'm optimistic about it. Our residents, it's our [00:30:00] young people. It's um, it's our staff who do an incredible job. Um, and it's the fact that we all work together. That's the thing that gets me up in the morning.

Siddo Dwyer: Thank you so much.

And that was Councilor Grace Williams lead of, uh, Walham Forest Council offering a grounded, optimistic take on what local leadership can do to shape better places. If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow best places on your podcast app, share it with a friend, or leave us. A nice rating. Uh, it will really help others, uh, find the show.

So thank you for listening. I've been ou Dwyer. Uh, and we'll see you next time.