I just feel a heaviness over just the the weight

of evil in our world. I guess

in one sense it just encourages me all the more

of how the gospel needs to go

forward and people need Jesus. They're wanting

more out of life, they're wanting

meaning, they're wanting purpose, they're wanting

value. They want to be able to

say on a day like today that evil does exist,

that you know that the world ought

not to be that way.

This is the Made to Advance podcast. I'm your

host Brian Aulick. We're here to

inspire and equip you for your best future.

Well hey, welcome everybody. It is so good to be

with you today on Made to Advance.

And before we get started I want to ask you to do

me a favor and that is rate

and review our podcast. Man, that helps us so

much. It's an encouragement, it helps

us get the word out to more people, and as I've

said many times it helps us bring

on more incredible guests like the one we have

today. Today I have with me Andy

Steiger. He is the founder and president of Apologetics

Canada Ministries. Andy

loves pressing into issues confronting our

culture from a Christian perspective.

He has been published widely in both books and

articles and has created some

amazing video projects that I would encourage you

to check out. Maybe those

will come up as we talk. I was able to bring Andy

in to talk with some of our

church staff a few months back and after that

conversation I'm like, "I want to

have Andy back on Made to Advance." And so Andy

it's great to have you with us

today. Yeah Brian, it is great to be with you.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, well you

know it's funny I was doing like kind of the the

look back thinking about you

being on today and I realized when you came on,

or excuse me, when you joined my

my kind of department heads and me for a little

bit of a conversation, that was

not long after everything with Wes was just you

know that was blowing up. I

think he'd just been on Rogan not much earlier

than that and as I

recall it at least you're like, "Oh yeah our

lives are crazy here at Apologetics

Canada right now." Has it slowed down at all or

is it still like just going with

your hair on fire mode? Well that's a funny joke

talking to a blogger. Yeah if you're

watching this there's no hair to be on fire.

Maybe my eyebrows are on fire. There

we go. But you know what's funny, that's a great

question. So I would say

that before the whole Wes Hough thing blew up, we

were already going at a

hundred miles an hour. Like the Lord was already

blessing the ministry and we

had just had our most incredible year of ministry

to date and I remember

Wes and the team and I were all thinking, you

know, how could we do any

more ministry than this? I mean how could it get

any better than this? And then

yeah and then the Joe Rogan, Billy, you know the

Billy Carson, Joe Rogan thing

exploded and yeah and then our lives went into

warp drive and we realized

there's a whole nother level of busyness that we

didn't even know existed and

yeah we've been living in that ever since. Have

you

been able to, it's a good kind of organizational

lesson for anybody who's

listening and we have a number of entrepreneurs

and different

kinds of leaders who are listening right now, but

it's a really interesting

leadership lesson to think, okay you were

functioning already at a high level and

you sort of without even intending it just kind

of had to go to the next

level. Have you since adjusted systems,

structures, processes to accommodate for

that and what's that adjustment look like? You

know that is a really great

question and those that are listening that

perhaps are in business or

ministry, entrepreneurs or those that are

experiencing rapid growth, you know it's

an interesting thing to experience where you need

to put processes in place that

you can manage your life and to be you know

totally transparent, I'm

working that out. But we had to, A, we had to

make a number of hires. One thing that

I've learned is it is absolutely crucial to have

some key hires in your

organization or company that are very organized

and they can help put

structure in place. And one of the bigger

challenges that I've faced and you know

Brian I don't know if you've dealt with this,

where I get more emails that come

in than I can respond to. We actually just

celebrated as a staff, I

kid you not, this week that I had only six emails

in my inbox. Like that we'd

finally gotten it down to like this manageable

level. I mean before then our

emails were in, we had some email, not mine

personally, but we had others that

were in the 500s. Mine was just consistently in

the 70 to 100

department. And it just didn't matter how fast

you sent an email out, they

would come back in you know quicker than you

could respond to them. And so learning

how to put process in the place to deal with that

has been a real learning curve.

Man I cannot imagine that. The OCD part of me

would go absolutely bananas if I

had to just, I mean it's like anything in life I

suppose you just

adjust. But it makes me all the more grateful

that you would join me for this

conversation today because you could be, I guess

that's when you say yes is

when you get down to six emails you're like okay

I guess I can do

something like this. I can do a podcast with

Brian now. Well we're coming off a

really really really sad and significant day. We're

recording the day after Charlie

Kirk was assassinated. And even though this this

episode won't be broadcasting

for a few weeks from that point, I just thought I

would ask you what you know

how is this affecting you, the organization? Is

this something

that's being talked about much in Canada or is it

kind of like no that's just

happening you know down in the States and it's

not our thing?

And how do you see perhaps its broader statement

in terms of where we're at as

a culture? Yeah thanks for asking that. You know

as I reflect on that, first of

all I think about the fact that you know on

September 10th you had Charlie Kirk

assassinated publicly. Just a terrible tragedy.

And then on top of that you had

a school shooting that happened on the same day.

And then today you and I are

recording this on 9/11. And it's pretty heavy I

don't know I don't know if you

feel just you know just kind of the weight of our

culture. We live in a

very divided culture. You know I try not to spend

too much time on social

media but man the amount of division and hatred

on social media is just it's just

really quite shocking. And so there's a part of

me like man we were in the

middle of a staff meeting when the Charlie Kirk

news kind of broke and as a

staff we just stopped and just took a moment to

pray over you know what's

going on in culture, what's going on in the

United States. And so for me Brian I

just I just feel a heaviness over just the the

weight of evil in our world. I

guess in one sense it just encourages me all the

more of how the gospel needs to

go forward and people need Jesus. But it's just

one of those shocking

moments where you're like wow there's a whole lot

more evil in our world than

than I realized. You know I we obviously don't

want to just dwell in the

evil. But here's something else though that I

want to bring up and I'm curious

your thoughts on this. Because you're a pastor

Brian and I pastored for

20 years and I've had a number of pastor friends

of mine, myself included, like

you know as a pastor when you put yourself up on

a stage or as a public

speaker when you put yourself up on a stage there

is this vulnerability going

hey I'm putting myself up here and today I might

get shot. And I've had

pastor friends of mine that you know we're

concerned about that going you

know is today the day that I'm gonna be preaching

a sermon and I'm gonna you

know have something crazy happen happen in my

church. And that's one of those

things that I struggle with. I'm curious whether

or not that's a thought

you've had and something you've struggled with.

Yeah I think that most of

me doesn't struggle with it because I tend to

think in terms of probabilities

and so I tend to think it is so incredibly

unlikely that that would be

something that I would face and so even you know

that part of me can kick

into a very rational gear once in a while I think

yeah but it can happen

anywhere and there are never any guarantees. I am

glad we've got a very

skilled trained security team at every one of our

campuses as a church

and so they drill and train for things all the

time. We have a really good sort

of security approach and set of protocols. So I

think that's helpful to

me but I would say mostly it doesn't serve as an

ongoing concern.

Once in a while it does and you just know I mean

what you know I can tell

myself oh you know our area is so safe and all

this but evil is irrational.

So one of the great apologetic points I think

that when sometimes people use

that even that question how do I make sense of

evil and I always like to

say and this is really right up your wheelhouse

with apologetics but I always

like to say I think I got this from Christopher

Wright that evil is

fundamentally irrational. It's fundamentally

doesn't make sense because

when God created the world with order with

rationality etc evil was not part

of it so by definition when evil enters the world

it doesn't make sense and that

part of me that goes hey it does the logic doesn't

matter the locale doesn't

matter evil is irrational it's crazy it doesn't

you know follow a sense of

common sense rules or a set of common sense rules

or whatever that part of me

goes man there's never any guarantees. But that

being said do you do you find

yourself thinking about that a lot when you're

speaking publicly? You know I have

over the years you know especially as things get

because because I'm

constantly in front of crowds in various places

and new places because I mean in

one sense you're kind of in your own community

like oh my community safe but

when you're constantly being parachuted into

various communities and you're

giving these talks you're like I have no idea

what I'm stepping into right you

know today. But I mean it speaks to me it just

speaks volumes even though you know

Brian that you guys you have to have a security

team you know at your church I

mean I mean that's the kind of culture that you

and I find ourselves in these

days that that that that this sort of evil has

become more and more common I

mean of course it's not just a pastor taking to a

stage but as a parent

sending your kid off to school where you're like

man I hope I hope my my son

or daughter is you know safe as they go off to

school. I mean again I one

question that I can't help but think is that you

know historically we're in the

safest time the world's ever known. Just kind of

interesting if you think about

it. And yet at the same time it sure doesn't feel

very safe you know especially

when we when we think about what's going on in

the news today. And I can't help

but wonder sometimes we just need to be reminded

that the world is a broken

place and it is need desperately in need of

redemption of restoration and it's

like one of those reminders do I do I believe

that am I committed to that.

Right well I'm gonna make a comment at the

beginning of a teaching I'll do

this this Sunday at the beginning of my sermon I'll

make a comment about in

particular the loss of Charlie and and I just

think that Charlie more than

probably any of us right now would you know I was

thinking about going into the

message and you almost want to offer an extended

lament but I thought you know

what I think Charlie from his vantage point right

now would be saying preach

the gospel louder and more courageously than ever

before because to your point

when we see the wickedness in the world and and

even this dramatic of wickedness

it you're you're just you're not even tempted to

think if we just get the

right policy that's gonna fix it. This is so much

deeper than that and I think it

really it really just fresh freshly emboldens me

to say we need the love of

Christ we need freedom in Christ we need the

power of the gospel and of the Holy

Spirit and and that's why we got to keep standing

up and preaching and and and

that's that's one of the things I appreciate

about you guys you guys

ministry about Apologetics Canada is because that

is something you're so

committed to doing is entering into the cultural

fray and say saying we want to

engage the issues of the day. I'd love for our

listeners just to hear a

little bit of your background I always think it's

fun just to hear some of some

of our guests background and then how they came

to know Jesus so maybe you

could just take a couple minutes and let us know

you're not actually a Canadian

so which is so funny to me to lead Apologetics

Canada but you're a covert

kind of you know import. You've already let my

secret out man yeah my origin

story if you will begins in Portland Oregon so I'm

originally from the United

States I'm from Portland. I heard about this

place called Canada and then I was

one of those Americans that didn't have very good

you know and my geography

wasn't as it should be and I found out that there's

this place called Canada up

north and you know not only was it its own

country but it had its own currency

and I found out that currency wasn't worth as

much as the US currency and

this this place is sounding pretty awesome so I

actually went to school in

Canada because I could go there for less money

and I met my wife fell in love

with with her fell in love with Canada got

married and have been here ever

since we have two boys one of my they're 16 and

18 so I I'm in that stage of life

right now where I just took my son last week off

to university and and kind of

grappling with with that and you know just a

little bit more of my background

story would be that I didn't grow up in

necessarily a Christian family grew up

in a very broken dysfunctional family my dad left

my mom when I was four but I

witnessed a miracle I witnessed my mom go from a

shell of a human being after

the divorce to encountering Jesus and seeing how

God transformed her life from

the inside out and that that actually had a huge

impact on me as a young man

because I I'd always believed that God existed I

just didn't believe that God

cared that I existed that was the you know real

question that I was wrestling

with I'd say I was wrestling with more questions

like the meaning of life but

watching what Jesus was able to do in my mom's

life got me thinking man he could

do the same in mine and that started my Christian

journey when I was about 17

Wow that's really cool and did you feel I mean

Portland is it less so than it

used to be but my notoriously secularized did you

feel us any kind of

hostility for taking steps towards Christ or was

that not a factor for you

no not at all one thing to appreciate about

Portland is I the way that I would

describe Portland growing up there is that

Portland was weird but Portland

wasn't hostile okay it was just kooky I think was

the best way to put it like

for example I literally I remember seeing a guy

in a Darth Vader suit

riding a unicycle down the street and you just

kind of got used to that sort

of thing like right it's just like oh okay that's

that's Portland but I'd say

in the last number of years Portland's just

really taken a dark turn that

really breaks my heart and I and I pray for

Portland that things will begin to

turn around in that in that state tell us a

little bit about what Apologetics

Canada is and what led you to start it yeah so I

was doing my so as I mentioned

I pastored for a number of years but I was doing

a master's degree down in Los

Angeles at Biola University my wife and I had

every intention to head off into

the mission field and I was knocking on those

doors of which none of them were

opening I remember thinking Lord this is so weird

it should be easy to become a

missionary I'm gonna raise my own support you

know and that got me really

thinking about well what's the Lord doing how's

the Lord leading in my life

and at that time I began to see you know that was

at the height of the new atheist

movement back in 2010 when I was at Biola looking

at what the next move of

my life would be and I began to see the

statistics of the number of young people

that were leaving the faith and in particular I

was hearing a talk by Lee

Strobel in which he was giving some of these

statistics and I thought my lord

if these are even remotely accurate we've got to

do something about this you

know it was like 60 to 90 percent of our young

people leaving the faith mm-hmm

and the statistics in Canada they actually did a

study here in Canada and

it demonstrated that the stats were pretty pretty

identical so that was the

impetus for me to start Apologetics Canada I saw

great work happening in the

United States and I thought man Canada

desperately needs us so there was an

organization at the time called apologetics.com

that I saw in LA doing

great work we kind of saw ourselves as apologetics.com

Canada we ended up

dropping the .com and just became apologetics

Canada. Gotcha okay and what

I mean it might seem like a silly question but

what does an

apologetics organization do we've kind of hinted

at it a little bit with

regard to you going out and engaging in say

public spaces where you can have

conversations with people about issues of the day

but in general what's

apologetics Canada do you produce resources maybe

take us through just a

little bit of what people can expect if say they

jump on your website and yeah

look for more yeah well first the word apologetics

and I actually use that word

a lot of people don't like that we use that word

as our title but I felt like

Christians just needed to understand our history

better that that apologetics has

been a part of the history you know the Christian

tradition that we have this

robust intellectual tradition of being you know

deep thinkers both

theologically philosophically and scientifically

and so apologetics just

comes from the Greek word apologia it means to

give an answer or a reason

specifically as it's used in the Bible by Peter

and Paul to give a reason for

the hope that we have in Jesus and as Peter tells

us to do so with gentleness

and respect so for us as an organization our

motto we take from Jesus found in

different places like Mark chapter 12 our tagline

is love God love people it's

basically paraphrasing Jesus giving the greatest

commandment to love the Lord

your God with all your heart mind soul and

strength and to love your neighbors

yourself and what we do is we create resources we

create resources that the

church can use mm-hmm and we engage in the area

of evangelism so I would say by

and large we are an evangelistic organization

that is equipping and and

coming alongside as a resource to the church

maybe one way to put this that I

think you would appreciate is I believe that the

church is God's plan a and I

don't think there's a plan B and so as an

organization we exist to to help the

church and not to not not to be separate you know

I don't like that idea like you

know parrot church kind of idea like I kind of

think of us as you know we are a

resource to the church yeah I love that in fact

one of the things I send out

thank-you cards to every person who who gives to

and get E and and I put that

very phrase on every single one of the thank-you

cards I write you know hey the

church is God's plan a and there is no plan B

just to encourage them when

they're supporting the work of the church it's it's

a big deal and I love

that you guys have that focus and yet if somebody

has just an individual wants to

bounce onto your website and look for resources

they can definitely find

things as just an individual as well it's not

like it's you've got to be a

church to benefit from Apologetics Canada correct

that's right that's right

so yeah we engage with individuals but we're

wanting to connect them and work

with the local church yeah that's so good you

know I I mentioned this in some

questions I sent to you ahead of time it seems

like right now Christianity is

kind of having a cultural moment of sorts you

know you just whether it be

music that is I think a Forrest Frank you know

just sort of everybody going

bananas around Forrest and his his sales or plays

or whatever streams and Brandon

Lake and some of these guys and even even

speaking early of Charlie Kirk just

his place in the public sphere as a believer what's

your take right now

relative to where Christian faith is at in the

culture I mean do you feel like

wow we're really seeing a shift or a tide change

or do you go well it might

be a little soon to start drawing those kinds of

conclusions I would say 100%

we're seeing the change in cultural tide yeah

there's no question about it and

I've talked quite a bit about this with a lot of

my friends and various people

where I'll be you know even you know texted a

pastor recently or said you

know hey I think I think that we're on

potentially even the verge of a revival

so I think that there's multiple things at play

here especially for somebody

who's done ministry as long as I have I've seen a

lot of cultural change over

the years and to give you an idea of what I this

is what I think is is

happening is that for since 2001 and it's

interesting that we're talking

about this on 9/11 because I think it actually

has everything to do with this

cultural moment back when 9/11 happened this

became a lightning rod moment for a

vigorous little you know hatred towards religion

and for the new atheist it was

the rallying call not against Islam but against

religion at you know in general

and Christianity specifically and you have you

know four individuals in

particular you had Sam Harris Daniel Dennett

Christopher Hitchens and of

course Dawkins Richard Dawkins yeah I almost said

Robert and I was like

that's not right yeah yeah so yeah you know these

these four you know horsemen

of the apologetics of sorry of the new atheists

as they are often referred to

but now we're in a new era now I would say they're

not the new atheists anymore

they're the old atheists and that there has been

this cultural shift that has

happened and and I would say that this is a part

of a much larger shift that

has been taking place since the Enlightenment

where you've had this rise

in atheism that's been going on for centuries and

it kind of crescendoed in

the new atheist movement and now we're seeing a

pendulum swing and it's

happening quite quickly and I would I would make

the argument that it's been

taking place since World War two but but we're

seeing this very rapid after the

new atheist movement where there is this right

there's this movement away from

atheism so when I'm out doing speaking

engagements when I first started I met

atheists all the time I literally Brian can't

tell you the last time I met an

atheist Wow like I just they're out there don't

get me wrong yeah sure but

are they as outspoken as these to be not a chance

and are they as prolific not a

chance even when you look at you know various

online atheist personas first

of all there's not as many and secondly they've

really their temp their timber

has changed quite considerably from the vitriol

that we used to get to what we

have today and so basically what I'm trying to

say is that there is this

pendulum swing that's been moving away from the

new atheists and you have to

remember that the new atheists were promoting

this this worldview in which

there's no meaning there's no purpose there's no

value that there's just blind

pitiless indifference as Dawkins said you know

and people are moving away from

that that's a very bleak view of the world it's

not not tenable you can't

really live out a meaningless existence and I

think where we're seeing then is

this is people are wanting they're wanting more

out of life they're wanting

meaning they're wanting purpose they're wanting

value they want to be able to

say on a day like today that 9/11 was wrong that

evil does exist and that this

should be condemned and that the death of

somebody you know the assassination

of somebody like Charlie Kirk was evil that you

know that the world ought not

to be that way but if you're gonna hold that kind

of a worldview well it's gonna

require things that atheism can't provide and

that religion Christianity

and specifically can and so what I'm seeing to

kind of finish this thought

then is a is a movement from a closed view of the

world where God can't be a

part of it to an open world you know an open view

of the world in which God can

be a part of it but so can a whole lot of other

things mm-hmm so when I go to

speaking engagements I find people that are open

to God existing but they're

also open to aliens existing they're open to new

age spirituality they're

open to Bigfoot they're open to everything but

how does that yeah totally

yeah I mean the just being open in general is a

great step in the right

direction because it's a conversation at least it's

it's that Christianity is no

longer just straightaway viewed as like implausible

how has that changed then

and and I'm just thinking right now for folks who

are in conversations who are

very open and you know very spiritual even

perhaps how has that changed the

nature of our role as apologists those who are

arguing for Christian faith when

it's it's no longer I'm trying to give you

evidence that God exists but I'm

trying to really persuade you of the merit of one

worldview over and above

others one one area that I think is important in

this current moment is in

this shouldn't surprise you of course is is that

to make sure that you understand

what you believe and that you're well versed in

in the Bible that you've spent

time in God's Word and that you can actually in

you know provide people with

answers and truth and point them to the gospel so

the other thing too though

that I think that you've got to have in that is

that you've got to have

confidence that you know what you believe and

that you're confident in

what you believe and in that confidence you are

willing to hear from people who

have different opinions than you and even kooky

and odd beliefs and be

willing to be able to listen to them and be able

to care for them and the reason

I'm saying that is because some of the most some

of the people that I've

encountered that or you know Christians that that

don't do this well are the

ones that that don't have a solid foundation and

I think that they become

very insecure if you don't know if you're not

convinced of what you believe

you can become very defensive insecure and you

actually don't want to engage

with people in conversation and be willing to

listen and and by the way

just on that note I do a lot of speaking

engagements with non-christians a lot and

one of the things that I find by and large with

non-christians is that they

want to be heard they they want to be able to

have a conversation and it's

interesting it seems as though they want to be

heard more than they want answers

but of course they want answers as well but but

that that's part of being heard

oh that's so interesting because I think when we

when we as Christians think what

does it look like to come alongside somebody who's

asking questions

spiritually exploring open we think of what do I

need to say what argument do I

need to give what kind of proof can I have and I

think it's a great point and

I it just starting in the place of listening well

and listening deeply and

and I I think you've probably found this to be

the case too sometimes you ask one

question and they answer but actually you know

the real question is the issue

underneath the issue underneath the issue and so

you really have to keep

digging sometimes to really understand what's

what's going on inside a person

this you know this may be I was I'm thinking of

now one person I know of who

who is not a believer and that person would give

you intellectual reasons why

they are at this point not willing to trust Jesus

but deep down I've since

found that they have some pretty significant

issues with their dad who

was very very hostile to faith well that's it in

some ways a different

conversation and of course you know if the work

of Paul Vitz and I'm sure

others that that there's this you know there's

actually quite a trend of people

having difficult relationships their dad and then

being less receptive to the

gospel but all of a sudden it just changes the

conversation a little bit

now do you find there's a lot of conversation

about how Gen Z in

particular is really been receptive to Jesus and

I just yesterday was reading

information that came out from I think it was put

together by Barna I'm not

sure if Barna did the research or not but showing

even church attendance

patterns based on each generation and it's a

clear you know uphill you know

like people are going attending church more as

they get into as we get into the

younger generations what do you make of that I

mean do you see that kind of a

trend yourself with with the younger with Gen Z

in particular or or not so

much I know I do I absolutely do I also see other

things that are happening

though in the mix if we were to be honest I also

see that young people are

also becoming much more political and much more

entrenched in in in different

camps that's also taking place like

simultaneously so there's some

interesting things that are kind of taking place

along with this but yes on

a positive note there is this movement and

interest in the gospel and again I

think it's because the that you've got a

generation that is longing for something

more to life they're longing for you know meaning

and and purpose and value

so I mean even if you think about it from this

perspective you know I know

like in our culture today we talk about you know

the social justice warrior as

an example but how do you be an atheist social

justice warrior you know how how

do you believe that there is no right and wrong

and then try to try to

advocate right now for right and wrong like it

just it just doesn't work and so

there tends to be this openness then to faith I

think the big issue though that

I see with young people that are are coming to

faith is and and and as

they're exploring Christianity in general is they're

asking two questions

that I'm seeing over and over again I'm curious

Brian if you're seeing this as

well on the one hand they're asking is it true

you know yes I'm seeing that but

a bigger question it's kind of like this movement

away from the new atheist where

you're asking okay does God exist and you're more

and I've seen more and more

this this question of is God good is the church

good will Christianity actually

lead to a flourishing life mm-hmm yeah I think

that comes up I mean I I think

that the the church issue has still not you know

gone away with people wrestling

with okay even if I'm a fan of Jesus I still get

a lot of yeah but I don't know

about the church I'm not sure about organized

religion of any sort those

kinds of things still come up a lot and I I hear

practical questions all the

time still coming out of pain I mean the question

of evil and the question you

know is it just never goes away you know how did

if God is good how did how could

he allow this why am I going through that why if

I've prayed so many times is

he not doing anything about it so I come up with

though I come across those

questions an awful lot but I I would agree I mean

I I saw this book title I

think it's a gospel coalition title that the

author was basically saying he in an

earlier generation reason for God by Tim Keller

which I'm sure you're familiar

with was just the book on wrestling with people's

questions and Tim of course

wrote that book in response to what he was

getting asked in New York City at

that time and and this author was saying he

really doesn't get the questions

surrounding the stuff Tim was wrestling with in

his book and reason for God

anymore it's all questions surrounding really

just church-related things why is

the church messed up why should I be part of a

church why is these these

these kinds of things so are you saying you see

similar trends in the

conversations you're having yeah I do you know

but you know that's it's very

interesting because on the one hand I think you're

absolutely right a lot of

the questions that were in that book I don't

necessarily people see people

asking like you know did did Jesus rise you know

from the dead sort of idea you

know questions about the resurrection now of

course they'll ask questions

about is there life after death but again it's it

tend a lot of these

questions tend to be couched in moral categories

like well would I even want

to go to heaven like and you know what well why

you know why would I go to

church because there's so many you know there's

there's broken people or there's

corrupt pastors right so they're those those tend

to be kind of the waters that

they're that they're wading through and that we

need to be able to help engage

them with I also think that along that this is a

question that they're really

wrestling with because young people in general

and I think this is just true

though across the board when you look at this

statistically we are in and have

been for a while now in an epidemic of loneliness

and in just what what we

just generally refer to is just fractured

relationships and brokenness I

mean listen my my sister is a counselor and her

and I have discussed on a number

of occasions how she's like man Andy if people

just had better friendships I

would have a lot less clients she's so she's not

saying that that everybody's

counseling issues because they don't have a

friend don't don't don't hear me

wrong here but but at the same time she is saying

that a lot of people just lack

having good relationship they don't have the kind

of connection that church was

always meant to be church is about community it's

about relationship it's

about actually living out loving God and loving

people in the and realizing that

you and I were created for community and we were

created we weren't for created

for just any kind of community but right

community loving community the kind of

community the church was always meant to be not

the kind of community the church

has always gotten right mm-hmm and so yeah go

ahead keep well I was just gonna

say and I think you would agree with me that that

we got to be honest when the

church gets it wrong mm-hmm and we got to own

that and but not but that doesn't

mean that that the church is wrong you know that

that yes relationship is what

we need but relationship can go off the rails and

we need to reconcile and bring

it back into what is right and good and continue

on but that's but that only

happens if you're committed to relationship if

you're committed to to

community so if you were talking with someone who

is really they were they

were interested and or compelled by Jesus and

really open to what the Bible

says but they're like this church thing you know

maybe they have hurt in their

past who knows maybe they just have skepticism

from it you know from

observations at a distance would your first

approach to that person be to to

try to show them how God created the church would

I mean not but let's put

like would you kind of do a hey let's put all the

hang-ups and issues the

church aside for a second would you start with

this is what we're made for

by God this is this is how we're made and this is

what the church is supposed

to do so you kind of paint a picture of the

church and then and then I mean how

would you approach that tension if somebody is

got that hang-up it's kind

of interesting I actually would approach it from

a little bit different

perspective and I think you already kind of hinting

at this but I would actually

start from the perspective of what it means to be

human and what we were

created for and then I would lead towards towards

church church because

one of the things that I talk about is that there's

a difference between the

parts that a thing is made of and the purposeful

whole that a thing is made

for and that when we're talking about what it

means to be human we're talking

about what are you made for what what is the

purpose of of life and that's when

you get into questions about well you know what

does the Bible have to say

well the Bible and what do we just see from

observation and that is that you

know the Bible and we I already mentioned this

where Jesus is saying you

know people were created for the purpose of

relationship with God in relationship

with people I love God love people the greatest

commandment as an example could

give many and that you see that this is that this

is core to who we are as

humans but we also see this just from observation

that loneliness is terrible

for you this is not something that anybody wants

nor should desire and that

you and I flourish when we're in when we're in

community when we're in

relationships so you can kind of begin to see how

when we're talking about what

it means to be human just naturally leads to a

conversation about living in

community you know ie church but one thing and I'm

curious your thoughts on

this where I think the church has gotten it wrong

and just needs to adjust its

language is we've kind of added to this this

problem in the sense that we'll say

things like this we'll give a gospel invitation

to people when we will in

invite people to you know or encourage people to

invite Jesus into your heart

so that you can have a personal relationship with

God and on the one

hand I think we have to be careful sometimes like

what does that even

mean to invite Jesus into my heart I understand

inviting Jesus into my life

and surrendering to him but that's just me just

going okay let's just let's just

make sure we're not using churchy kind of

language you know communicating to a

non-christian audience that actually makes sense

but then beyond that do we

actually think that that's right that they've

just been invited into a

personal relationship with God because if that's

the case then naturally they

should ask why go to church but I would argue

that it's it's two things that and

this is one of the things I talk with people

about is that that you've been

invited into a personal and communal relationship

with God hmm and that these

two things aren't mutually exclusive exclusive

and they go together in other

words church is a part of you know what it means

to be a Christian is living in

community with other people but it's also what it

what it means to be human

is to be in community not only with people but

with God and that both of

those things taking place together is is the

ideal community yeah it does I think

from and of course you've been a pastor's

presented the gospel many times

too so I've long wrestled with and and Keller has

a great article on on

different ways of communicating the gospel and

you know you on the one hand

you need to keep it simple and understandable

enough that people can

respond to what Jesus accomplished on the cross

and in the resurrection and on

the other hand you don't want to invite people

into such a truncated gospel that

they really don't kind of know what they're

signing on for so to speak so

what I often do and I I don't know what you would

think about this but I I would

say I I like your language I'd have to think

about that as as far as when I'm

making gospel presentation but I think what I

would what I often do is really I

mean this may sound elementary but really hitting

of course Savior of

sins Lord of your life and and then expanding in

that conversation Lord of

your life what does that mean living on purpose

for Christ living in community

etc etc so that we understand when we're giving

our life to Jesus we're giving

our life to following him in his way which

involves the church and so that is

for me how I approach it what do you think about

that feel free to criticize

well no I agree with it I would just say it's it's

getting at the same it's

getting at the same thing from just a different a

different vantage point and

I think sometimes we have to use different

vantage points to try to help

people to understand what it what it really means

to be a follower of Jesus

right like because if one of the things you often

hear people say is oh it's me

and Jesus you know and and I think what what we

need to help people to say is or

understand is that yes you have this personal

relationship with God but what's

God saying what what what's God communicating

through his word and what

is God all what has God created you for will

community so it shouldn't surprise

you that as you want to make it just you and

Jesus Jesus say no it's actually

you and and and in the church it's us in the

church if you will right that that

it's about it's about community and I that I just

think that as we communicate

the gospel going forward in a culture of

loneliness that is just rampant that

community just needs to be a part of more and

more we need to lean into that

as as the ethos of who we are and it shouldn't

surprise us I like my my my

reason for bringing this up Brian's I is if we

have a lot of people that are

coming to church and that don't understand what

church is about or if

they even need to be a part of church mm-hmm that

you have to ask the question

okay what has been communicated to lead people to

this conclusion you know like

how is how is the gospel been presented that this

is that what they're coming

taking away now on the flip side you might find

this interesting I meet

people regularly regularly that are coming to

church and but what's

interesting there is they're not necessarily

coming to church sometimes

for community but oftentimes they want to know

who God is and and for whatever

reason they the culturally that they're saying

okay I got to go to I got to go to

church and so there's this I can't help but think

that there's just this

constant education that needs to happen

especially when you're in a culture that

is less and less church like they don't they don't

understand Christianity and

we need to we need to really work at helping to

explain to them you know what

it is and what what we believe in stand for yeah

I think that's a good push

that's a good thing for me to be thinking about

because I a hundred

percent agree that when you get when you're

getting a certain kind of result

or outcome over and over again you need to back

up the process and say okay okay

why why do we keep getting you know the the

recipe is producing a certain kind

of cake here so what's what's going on you know

and and specifically with

regard to how we're presenting community I mean

we know kind of the ingredients

going in are it's like we've got rampant rampant

isolationism and you know

isolationism and then also just defining life

almost solely by what I feel and

kind of an orientation extreme individualism yeah

so yeah individualism

I meant did I say isolationism I meant to say

individualism so but I would go

with both I would go with both yeah like I was

with you I was with you so it you

know that we know at a cultural level is a

massive factor and and really can't be

underestimated so how do we then bake in the

communal side from the front end

that's that's really good I have to do some more

thinking about that because I

think you're right it's just a it's a great great

question to ask I'm curious

one of the things that and and this wouldn't be

true in all contexts I know

folks who are serving in churches that are in

areas say let's like such as

Portland that don't have this massive somewhat

Christianized community but

there are still many communities around the

country where you do get a pretty

decent vestige of people who say oh of course I'm

a Christian and they might

not be as active anymore because the cultural

pressures to kind of that to

practice a performative Christianity are no

longer there but they would still

claim at least claim faith and at some level I

was just having a conversation

with someone this week it's that's a very

difficult person in some ways to

evangelize seems to me at least maybe maybe you

disagree but because they're

convinced of course I mean what else would I be

in this this sort of thing

how would you come alongside that person when and

this gets into trick-or-treat

territory as a question as asking the question

because you don't want to be

the person saying oh I'm judging their salvation

and yet when we look at the

biblical evidences biblical statements Jesus

himself makes and the broader

New Testament of what it means to be a follower

of Christ you go man it's just

not there what what would you say to do in a

situation like that yeah I think

that's a really tough question it's one that I've

seen as well is especially

you know in a broken world when people have

encountered hurt of various kinds

including church hurt right they they're off

there's a lot of wounded people in

the world world and a lot of wounded Christians

that are still claiming to be

Christian of various stripes so so you know I

just want to acknowledge that you

can have all sorts of flavors of people in these

categories and maybe that's

actually one of the places that you first need to

start as you and I

encounter these types of people is actually again

taking the time to listen

and to hear their story and to learn about what

happened I mean I had a guy

working on installing some stuff in my house the

other day and he and I got

into a conversation about faith and he was

telling me about how he left the

church because his wife had an affair with the

worship pastor you know and and

it you can only imagine there is like some

serious hurt going on there and it

was very clear that he hadn't given up on Jesus

but he wasn't sure what to do

about the church and he wasn't sure you know what

to do about his faith in in

general through that situation and and again I

think those are those moments

where we need to be able to listen to people walk

with them in that and again

point them point them to truth and this shouldn't

surprise you this my my go-to

is prayer that I'm inviting the Holy Spirit to

come into this broken

situation saying God you know help use me help

use other people in this person's

life and and my prayer is that although this

person has encountered broken

Christians in broken people whether they're

Christian or not in the past

maybe they claim to be Christian that they would

find a true follower of Jesus

in me and that I could love them well and point

them to to you truthfully and

honestly and pray that the Holy Spirit would convict

and guide them as they

continue in their journey with Jesus yeah that's

good yeah I appreciate you

just bringing up prayer because we really do have

to acknowledge fully as

much as we're talking about apologetics and you

know words matter and arguments

and all back back to the and any and even to the

extent list listening matters all

those things are so important but ultimately we

just need the power of the

Holy Spirit to work in someone's life I I think

the listening the side of things

is so good because you really can understand okay

where are they coming

from I think of an example in my life I had

someone I knew who was raised in the

church and I think you know they would say this

person would say I sensed would

probably agree with if I gave them a list of very

robust truth statements

from the Bible they would say oh yeah yes and yes

and and so my approach tell

me what we think about this first I really wanted

to make sure that they

understood what it meant to commit their lives to

Jesus so I I went to then and

then this is you know funny going back to the

community side of the conversation

earlier I drew the famous bridge illustration

this is a little bit ago

and I you know I we just talked about what the

gospel is and the gap between

us and God because of sin and what Jesus did on

the cross and and I asked the

person where would you see yourself and they said

oh yeah cross the bridge you

know I've definitely crossed the bridge I'm with

God all that so I had to first

I wanted to first make sure that that definitely

the gospel is clear and that

that person definitely thought they were a

Christian I because I wasn't a hundred

on that I mean did they just grow up in the

church and believe it's kind of nice

stuff but they're not so then then I realized in

some ways I had a tougher

problem because this person was indeed saying oh

yeah of course you know I've

made that decision so then my next approach was

to say man I really

appreciate that you know you hold these things to

be true and and that you have

a desire I really wanted to affirm them you have

a desire to to to be in a right

in the right place with God here's the challenge

that that I experienced and

this is now somebody I've walked with so I can

say this you know in the context

of relationship I said here's the challenge I'm

feeling when I look at

some of the things the New Testament says about

what it means to follow Jesus

I guess I'm just not seeing that that's those

those things are really a priority

to you can I give you some examples sure well

when I you know read here that it

added a different examples of what just a

Christian's life looks like and I went

through a couple three or so and I said and then

I try to ask a question I mean

I don't know do you feel like those things are

present in your life so I'm

not I don't want to just you know it's weird it's

a tough dynamic I'm trying to

push a little bit and saying I don't but what do

you think and they invited them

and and I'll never forget I mean the person said

to me and it was very somber

actually in the moment yeah I suppose I don't

really see those things in my life

and the way we left it was I said you know I

really feel like it would do you

well to have some time to ponder that because I

understand that you believe

all the right things you know I could have said

it you know Jesus said even

the demons have good theology I didn't say I didn't

say that you know I just

said I understand you believe a lot of the right

things that a Christian

believes but I guess I'm wondering if you really

trust them in so far as these

other things are not really part of your life and

and it was a kind of a somber

ending the conversation it was like yeah I think

I should think about that and it

was interesting because some months after that I

saw this person start

reading their Bible attending church started to

consider going on a mission

trip I'm like what in the world has happened but

it that that's how I kind

of got after it it was the context of listening

some ways it was familiarity

with their life it was definitely not just some

prayer years of prayer but

then it was pressing in what do you think did I

did I do well I would just

say Brian I might take you make me take you back

to apologetic school here yeah

right yeah right that that's exactly what I was

thinking you you eloquently put

that into you know a great illustration of how

that actually plays out being

honest with people right not I think one of the

things that often happens with

people is their love for them they want to

compromise the truth and they don't

want to have those hard conversations and be like

and you did that I think you

did that in a very respectful loving way right

you're trying to care for that

person it's not about winning an argument which

sometimes people can get

into right in a very combative moment where this

is actually this is a this is

a moment of counsel and and comfort where you're

but but but to do that you

have to challenge them and doing that doing that

lovingly so you know I one

thing that we have to remember is you know one of

the most important ways that

we love people is by being honest with them and

pointing them to truth praying

for them but also realizing and this this I just

want to say for all the the

pastors and maybe parents out there people that

have been in these

situations realizing that there's only there's

only so much that you can do

there is no silver bullet apologetic moment or

way of approaching a

conversation people are people they're free to

love and to not love it you know

we live in a broken world unfortunately and as

much as I love my children I you

know that's one of the scary parts about being a

parent is you're like they could

choose not to love me they could choose to go do

any number of things but what I

can have control of is my love for them and how I'm

gonna treat them how I'm

gonna pray for them and be consistent with them

and in this of course is

modeled to us in the way that God loves us in the

way that his relationship is

with us and how the way he calls us to to model

that to be to love people as he

loves yeah yeah that's that's such a good word I

you know there's that old

phrase of I don't know if the people say God or

the Holy Spirit but whatever is

a gentleman he doesn't force himself on a person

or whatever and I think

similarly similarly when we're when we're trying

to challenge I mean there's

a part of it that one I only want to do what I

just described doing under the

under the prompting of the Holy Spirit that says

this is time I don't want to

have mentality if I've just got a constantly hound

them and what that

really does is probably when somebody has that

kind of driving which ultimately

ends up driving away but that driving presence of

we've got a we've got to hit

it and where are you at and why aren't you making

this move and it really I

mean it can be out of compassion but it can also

be this there's a certain level

of we just have to release trust to the Lord that

you know he does seek them

more persistently and and and meet them more

directly than even we could and and

we just have to there's a certain element of

faith in that I'm curious I

you know I'm sure oh I don't know if you get you

ever get fatigued about talking

about all the things that that have happened

because of the visibility that

Wes Huff has brought to the organization and just

a faith having now been I think

it's been over a year since we talked I can't

remember last how many months it

was but is there anything through all this

because you know that was the front

end and now there's been a lot more in the way of

conversations podcasts all

this is there anything all of this has taught you

guys any insights into

culture any insights into presenting the gospel

anything at all that you go boy

we're smarter now about engaging the world than

we used to be or does it feel

like no actually we kind of just continue to do

the same things we've

been doing well I actually I'd say two things one

is I just want to encourage

people we have seen more people come to faith

than ever before and we receive we

hear from people constantly that have come to

faith are coming to faith I just

want to encourage people man the Lord is on the

move and doing great work in

people's lives you don't always see it and I we

actually had a somebody reach

out to us just recently said I'm the last person

that that my friends and

family would think would come to faith I mean we

got we actually just got an

email the other day from a CEO of this

organization I won't say what who it is

but he's like I've been praying for my sister-in-law

for years she just came to

faith and it was in he was reaching out to us

because it was just happened to be

through our ministry but man we're we're seeing

that happen all the time and so

that I would just want to encourage people man

the Lord is on the move in as

dark as the world may be at times and it is dark

there is light and that light is

is all the more bright in the midst of this

darkness and and that does

encourage me and the other thing that I would

just say is for what it's worth

pathos precedes logos and what I mean by that is

your character matters this one

of the reasons why we talk so much at AC about

loving God loving people in the

world that we live in in a world that's so dark

and broken people are looking

for light there and and Jesus said it this way he

said people will know that

you're one of my disciples if you what if you

love each other yeah right on

right and so that would be my encouragement to

people is man get make

sure that we get that right make sure that we

love God like really love God

and make sure that we really actually have a

genuine love for each other that

is a light that burns so bright in this dark

world yeah that's a good word I

mean the apologetic of a well-lived life is a big

deal we're to the point it's

funny you're taking your first or your oldest to

college we just took a couple

of weeks ago our youngest to college and it's

interesting because now we have our

older two kids are both married they're following

Jesus they're active at our

church by choice we've always said the whole time

through for our kids we've

said go where you want to go you know in college

wherever and all that and

they've just continued they serve in our church

and you know what's interesting

and this is back to this point of the apologetic

of your life of loving Jesus

and loving people is we're at a stage in our life

now where people are coming to

us increasingly saying it really is such a

testimony to what you guys preach and

say you believe to see how your kids are living

their lives and how what your

family culture is and so I think that's that's

just such a such an encouraging

word and I'll say this by way and just a minute I'm

gonna ask if you got

anything else to share but just as an

encouragement to you on God is on the

move we this year we played as we do a couple of

a couple of our church news

videos that say hey a baptisms coming up this

year by the time of our regular

baptism time in August we ended up baptizing 150

people in Lake Michigan it

was so powerful watch this and I read awesome I

read all the testimonies and

particularly over the last two or three years we

are seeing people come from

more diverse and on some and sometimes even

difficult backgrounds than we ever

have before and I'm reading these testimonies and

the common theme is just

Jesus changed my life over and over again this

last time we had people

coming out of Mormonism we had a person coming

out of Islamic background we had

a person coming out of a cult background and a

person coming out of a Jewish

background all coming to know Jesus and then we

had people coming out of all

kinds of other some with church background and

hey I'm just finally a

place I want to put my trust in Jesus but and

then other people you know spent

many many had spent time in jail addiction all

kinds of things so God's

on the move he's doing it and he will continue

anything else it's been such a

good conversation Andy I just such a big fan of

your work but anything else you

want to share before before we finish up today

well you know what man thank you

for all that you're doing and that's so exciting

to hear what your church is

doing and I just pray God's richest blessings

over you guys as you're

continuing to share the gospel and man I am

excited to hear about what the Lord's

doing through you guys and I just pray more and

more people would come to know

and love Jesus through your church and and be

connected into community if we

can be a resource to anybody listening that that's

our our desire we're an

organization focused on the gospel we have

various resources that you can use

and say your community group or or in your own

personal life through you know

Bible reading plans and stuff like that that you

know is is our privilege to be

able to serve the church in that way so if we can

help you can check us out at

Apologize Canada dot-com and and we're on YouTube

and various other places it's

easy to find us and I just can't say enough about

your resources they are so

good so quality and we way earlier in the

conversation you talked about this

idea of we need to know what we believe and we

need to know why we believe it

and and part of doing that work is what gives us

confidence and as we're

entering in conversations with people that are

that believe different things

we don't we don't need to feel insecure we don't

feel like we need to getting

attacked or something like that we know what we

believe and why and I just could

not commend the resources coming out of Apologize

Canada highly enough to those

who say I just need to do some work and know know

better what I believe and why

I believe so thanks for your continued work Andy

thanks I know with all of the

load you guys are under I just I've prayed for

you and will continue to that

God just gives you incredible favor and I love he's

already he's continuing to

do that I love you guys set such a tone of

humility and dependence as an

organization that kind of kind of emanates out of

how you approach your

leadership and I appreciate that and I know God's

gonna continue to pour his

favor and pour his spirit out on you so blessings

on you brother thanks for the

conversation today yeah thank you so much really

appreciate it well I hope

you enjoyed that conversation with Andy Steiger

from Apologetics Canada and I

just cannot again commend enough the resources

that his team is producing the

big point of Apologetics the big point of dealing

with these hard questions of

faith is really to help remove some of those

obstacles and hang-ups that might

stand in the way of someone giving their life to

Jesus and so that's why I really

like bringing folks like Andy on the show and

pointing you to their resources

because I want you to be equipped to help others

to advance and so please

take advantage of those learn what you believe

learn why you believe it get

prepared for some of those questions come that

come up along the way in

conversations with people who are far from Christ

and ultimately pray pray

pray don't wait till you have or think you have

all the answers you never will

to share your faith just step out there in faith

and know the Holy Spirit will

meet you along the way if you don't have an

answer you can always tell somebody

hey let me get back to you on that and there's

great great resources out there

and Apologetics Canada has many of them well if

this was a helpful conversation

for you please rate and review us this has been a

production of Engedi Church and

so we've got more incredible conversations coming

down the pipeline

but until next time just know God made you to

advance

you