1 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,750 Andy Polaine: Hello and welcome to Power 10, a show about design operating 2 00:00:12,750 --> 00:00:16,170 at many levels of Zoom from thoughtful detail through to transformation in 3 00:00:16,170 --> 00:00:18,120 organizations, society, and the world. 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:19,920 My name is Andy Polan. 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,005 I'm a design leadership coach, designer, educator, and writer. 6 00:00:23,820 --> 00:00:27,630 My guest today is Carissa Carter, a designer Geoscientist, and the 7 00:00:27,630 --> 00:00:29,520 academic director at the Stanford dco. 8 00:00:30,420 --> 00:00:34,410 She's the author of The Secret Language of Maps, how to Tell Visual Stories with 9 00:00:34,410 --> 00:00:38,940 Data and Co-Author of Assembling Tomorrow, A Guide to Designing a Thriving Future. 10 00:00:39,510 --> 00:00:43,050 Carissa teaches design courses on emerging technology, climate change and 11 00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:47,040 data visualization, a work on designing with machine learning, and blockchain 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,810 has earned multiple design awards. 13 00:00:49,379 --> 00:00:51,120 Karissa, welcome to Power of 10. 14 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:52,620 Carissa Carter: It's great to be here Andy. 15 00:00:52,620 --> 00:00:53,520 Thanks for having me. 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,400 Andy Polaine: So, I'll just give it a bit of your background, but how does, 17 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,440 what is your pathway to the Dsco? 18 00:00:58,650 --> 00:01:01,950 Carissa Carter: It sounds kinda drastic to think that I, I had 19 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:05,970 a first career as a geoscientist before making my way to design. 20 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:09,930 It felt really natural in practice. 21 00:01:09,990 --> 00:01:12,539 I was working as a scientist. 22 00:01:12,539 --> 00:01:14,280 I have always loved geology. 23 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,370 That's what I studied and did my first degrees in and. 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:23,270 I really do, um, enjoy understanding the processes that shape our planet. 25 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:30,080 I've also always had a thread of how do we build, how do we make, what is art? 26 00:01:30,110 --> 00:01:31,850 How do we present information? 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,210 I never really knew how to pull those things together when I was 28 00:01:35,210 --> 00:01:41,360 younger, and honestly, I didn't know that design really was a discipline. 29 00:01:42,285 --> 00:01:45,735 Until I was, until I was maybe in my mid twenties. 30 00:01:45,825 --> 00:01:45,914 Right. 31 00:01:46,395 --> 00:01:49,304 Um, it just, it just wasn't on my radar. 32 00:01:49,695 --> 00:01:51,000 So I made my way. 33 00:01:52,635 --> 00:01:56,325 Into the design field and one thing led to another because I really do 34 00:01:56,325 --> 00:01:57,885 believe everything's interconnected. 35 00:01:57,975 --> 00:01:58,155 Yeah. 36 00:01:58,155 --> 00:02:01,185 And you know, there's the, there's the path. 37 00:02:01,185 --> 00:02:02,445 We all are many things. 38 00:02:02,535 --> 00:02:04,485 Andy Polaine: So when was the moment where you did realize 39 00:02:04,485 --> 00:02:05,565 the design was a discipline? 40 00:02:06,045 --> 00:02:09,345 Carissa Carter: I think I, I remember exactly where I was sitting. 41 00:02:10,785 --> 00:02:12,285 Uh, it was in a cubicle. 42 00:02:12,525 --> 00:02:17,325 I worked at the US Geological Survey at the time, and. 43 00:02:18,105 --> 00:02:22,575 I had an excellent mentor, Dave Rubin, and we were looking, we 44 00:02:22,575 --> 00:02:25,365 were making models of ripples. 45 00:02:25,365 --> 00:02:30,255 So in sand, you know, little ripples moves the sand, grains move in the direction 46 00:02:30,255 --> 00:02:32,865 of the flow and the sand grains bounce. 47 00:02:33,165 --> 00:02:38,475 And they, they, they're the, the way that they are preserved in the rock 48 00:02:38,475 --> 00:02:42,465 record can show you a lot of complex things about, about how the water 49 00:02:42,465 --> 00:02:44,355 flows, how the wind flows, et cetera. 50 00:02:44,355 --> 00:02:46,125 And we're making these models and. 51 00:02:47,489 --> 00:02:54,450 It was in that cube that I had to do a lot of, not just understanding 52 00:02:54,450 --> 00:02:59,250 the science, but a lot of presenting information and making it accessible to 53 00:02:59,250 --> 00:03:04,230 a wide range of audiences and thinking about, well, why does this even matter? 54 00:03:04,980 --> 00:03:07,679 You know, this is like this tiny slice of truth, but like, 55 00:03:07,709 --> 00:03:08,910 what about the big picture? 56 00:03:08,910 --> 00:03:09,899 Where does that go? 57 00:03:10,529 --> 00:03:15,570 And it was a combination of that and like, what? 58 00:03:16,110 --> 00:03:21,720 Was accessible on the web at the time, and like really great encouragement from him. 59 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,510 He was a builder, a tinkerer on his own. 60 00:03:24,510 --> 00:03:26,550 He did his own inventions. 61 00:03:26,610 --> 00:03:30,210 He invented a self-locking bike, and I just like all those things came 62 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:33,510 together, right, the right people, the right circumstances, the right things. 63 00:03:33,510 --> 00:03:38,160 I was realizing about myself, and then I found out that there's. 64 00:03:39,105 --> 00:03:40,545 Design was something you could study. 65 00:03:40,545 --> 00:03:45,225 There are people that, that look at how we make things and it, and it 66 00:03:45,225 --> 00:03:46,935 came together for me in that cubicle. 67 00:03:47,415 --> 00:03:47,595 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 68 00:03:47,595 --> 00:03:52,215 It's design's perennial problem that, uh, it is ubiquitous and that people 69 00:03:52,215 --> 00:03:56,055 just feel like stuff pops into the world, um, or don't even feel that. 70 00:03:56,055 --> 00:03:58,215 And it just seems to happen and it's everywhere. 71 00:03:58,245 --> 00:04:00,525 And I think it's, that's why it gets ignored, quiet on. 72 00:04:01,155 --> 00:04:02,565 We'll, we'll come back to that right at the end. 73 00:04:02,925 --> 00:04:04,005 Carissa Carter: I mean, it's wild to me. 74 00:04:04,005 --> 00:04:07,575 I mean, still today, I'm, I'm blown away that everything is designed. 75 00:04:07,665 --> 00:04:07,725 Yeah. 76 00:04:07,725 --> 00:04:10,755 Whether or not intentionally or not, like absolutely 77 00:04:10,905 --> 00:04:12,615 everything was a design decision. 78 00:04:12,735 --> 00:04:14,115 Andy Polaine: When I was teaching in Australia. 79 00:04:14,115 --> 00:04:18,135 I had a, a, a parent come up to me actually about, uh, on graduation day. 80 00:04:18,615 --> 00:04:22,275 You know, I'm very proud that their daughter had just graduated and, and 81 00:04:22,275 --> 00:04:25,575 sort of quietly came up to me and said, but, but what does a designer do? 82 00:04:25,635 --> 00:04:25,965 You know? 83 00:04:26,325 --> 00:04:29,115 And I said, well, you know, everything that you are wearing, the car that 84 00:04:29,115 --> 00:04:33,285 you came here in the, the, you know, books, you read, the magazines, 85 00:04:33,285 --> 00:04:38,115 you uh, you read whatever you in your kitchen, you go and use. 86 00:04:38,115 --> 00:04:42,405 Everything has been designed by someone, you know, and it's, um, it sort of 87 00:04:42,465 --> 00:04:43,665 blows people's mind a little bit. 88 00:04:43,935 --> 00:04:44,295 Exactly. 89 00:04:45,735 --> 00:04:48,375 So, um, we talked a little bit, um, about this before. 90 00:04:48,375 --> 00:04:52,155 You know, the, the show is called Power of 10, um, because it's named 91 00:04:52,155 --> 00:04:54,165 after the Eames film, powers of 10. 92 00:04:54,350 --> 00:04:56,690 It's all about the relative size of things in the universe 93 00:04:56,690 --> 00:04:57,680 and how it's all connected. 94 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,490 And so for me, this idea of kind of thinking in layers and 95 00:05:01,490 --> 00:05:02,785 these different layers of zoom. 96 00:05:03,465 --> 00:05:06,974 You know, my main thing that I teach these days is service design, and 97 00:05:06,974 --> 00:05:08,265 that's what people know me for though. 98 00:05:08,295 --> 00:05:11,025 I've got a background in, in earlier stuff, in digital and 99 00:05:11,025 --> 00:05:14,505 stuff and UX and all those things before they record those things. 100 00:05:15,075 --> 00:05:17,505 But it's the easiest way to try and explain to people those different 101 00:05:17,505 --> 00:05:20,715 layers, although it's sort of artificial in the sense of, you know, where 102 00:05:20,715 --> 00:05:23,414 you actually decide to draw a layer. 103 00:05:24,135 --> 00:05:28,575 It's a really kind of fundamental thread that flows throughout the book. 104 00:05:28,575 --> 00:05:28,995 So. 105 00:05:29,835 --> 00:05:32,325 Can you tell me, 'cause you, you've got the onion diagram before 106 00:05:32,325 --> 00:05:33,795 maybe we get to the onion diagram. 107 00:05:34,185 --> 00:05:37,275 Can you tell me what the sort of impetus for the book is? 108 00:05:37,275 --> 00:05:40,485 I always feel most people write a book either, you know, you think, well, 109 00:05:40,485 --> 00:05:43,515 there's a, there's a missing thing out there in the world, but it's often to 110 00:05:43,515 --> 00:05:45,315 scratch your own itch a little bit too. 111 00:05:45,765 --> 00:05:47,445 So what was the impetus of the book? 112 00:05:47,445 --> 00:05:50,270 And in fact, we should probably name your, your co. 113 00:05:50,870 --> 00:05:52,730 Collaborators as well with, um, 114 00:05:53,060 --> 00:05:57,260 Carissa Carter: yeah, so, so the book is Assembling Tomorrow and my co-authors 115 00:05:57,260 --> 00:06:01,490 Scott Doley, who's the creative director at the D School, we had an incredible 116 00:06:01,490 --> 00:06:08,570 illustrator arm, Armando, ve and the book is really, you know, inspired by the 117 00:06:08,570 --> 00:06:14,570 fact that Scott and I are both educators in the field of making things and 118 00:06:14,570 --> 00:06:16,520 teaching other people how to make things. 119 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:22,530 But even to us right now is a very overwhelming moment in the world. 120 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:25,710 Our climate is in dire straits. 121 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:32,460 Our emerging technologies like AI feel like there is a new algorithm released 122 00:06:32,460 --> 00:06:36,750 every day, and these algorithms can learn on their own and it can really 123 00:06:36,750 --> 00:06:39,900 feel like the world is happening to us. 124 00:06:40,784 --> 00:06:46,245 But at the same time, we know that we all have a lot of agency, right? 125 00:06:46,724 --> 00:06:46,844 And. 126 00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:52,335 We can teach that and we know that there are ways to center ourselves and really 127 00:06:52,335 --> 00:06:53,925 build a future that we wanna have. 128 00:06:53,955 --> 00:06:57,555 So we wrote the book to call attention to the urgency of the 129 00:06:57,555 --> 00:06:59,265 unsettling this, of this moment. 130 00:06:59,505 --> 00:06:59,775 Right. 131 00:06:59,775 --> 00:07:02,505 And to pave a path forward that anybody can take. 132 00:07:03,045 --> 00:07:03,105 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 133 00:07:03,105 --> 00:07:06,615 And you kind of talk about where you talk about the layers of design and 134 00:07:06,615 --> 00:07:09,255 ecosystems and flows in particular. 135 00:07:09,345 --> 00:07:11,775 And earlier on you, you use the onion. 136 00:07:12,330 --> 00:07:13,080 As an example. 137 00:07:13,230 --> 00:07:13,320 Mm-hmm. 138 00:07:13,590 --> 00:07:14,280 Or you kind of cut through it. 139 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,180 Can you explain that? 140 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:20,340 I, maybe I'd put some video of it up or an image of it up, uh, on the video. 141 00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:23,760 But for those listening, uh, what would we be looking at? 142 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,420 Carissa Carter: Well, by the onion, um, we mean the layers of 143 00:07:27,630 --> 00:07:29,340 design that we like to talk about. 144 00:07:29,340 --> 00:07:32,310 And, and one way to think about it is to take any sort of object. 145 00:07:32,310 --> 00:07:36,720 And I have this, you know, iPhone here that I'm holding up as an object. 146 00:07:36,750 --> 00:07:37,020 Okay? 147 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:39,900 This is when somebody says, well, what is design? 148 00:07:40,230 --> 00:07:40,680 Okay. 149 00:07:41,115 --> 00:07:42,735 This is a product. 150 00:07:42,795 --> 00:07:46,185 This phone is a product that was designed, somebody decided on the 151 00:07:46,605 --> 00:07:52,665 radius of the corners, the material that it's made of, how it feels in my hand. 152 00:07:52,995 --> 00:07:58,575 I can open it up and there's a ton of, of digital products on here too. 153 00:07:58,575 --> 00:08:01,815 All those apps are digital, is both physical and digital. 154 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:03,360 Product design here. 155 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,130 Each one of these products enables any number of experiences to happen. 156 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:09,870 So here we are on a new layer. 157 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,850 We went from product to experience. 158 00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:15,630 We can have a video call with somebody on the other side of the world, right? 159 00:08:15,630 --> 00:08:17,730 That experience was designed. 160 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,700 Each one of those products and experiences is embedded in any number of systems. 161 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:24,180 Okay? 162 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:26,280 New layer of that onion. 163 00:08:27,060 --> 00:08:32,880 As a Stanford employee, I'm a cog in that system, and this phone has the 164 00:08:33,210 --> 00:08:35,850 security software that they require on it. 165 00:08:36,330 --> 00:08:41,730 I'm on an at t phone plan, which is a system that decides where I get service. 166 00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:44,780 Around this country and this world. 167 00:08:45,230 --> 00:08:47,840 If I want a new app, I get one from the app store. 168 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,610 Another system that was designed right? 169 00:08:49,610 --> 00:08:55,460 So product experiences and systems are all layers, but every single one of those. 170 00:08:56,295 --> 00:09:00,344 Products if by going down into the onion now, you know, is enabled by 171 00:09:00,344 --> 00:09:04,935 any number of technologies, both digital and physical technologies. 172 00:09:04,935 --> 00:09:04,994 Yeah. 173 00:09:05,324 --> 00:09:08,805 Um, and then each one of those technologies is powered by data. 174 00:09:08,834 --> 00:09:13,604 So for example, if you were going to to, to text me and you're texting 175 00:09:13,604 --> 00:09:18,224 to Carissa, my name's not always in the western cannon of names. 176 00:09:19,470 --> 00:09:22,860 It will auto correct a carrot or carcass, right? 177 00:09:22,860 --> 00:09:26,939 And, and then like, there's just a very interesting things happening there. 178 00:09:26,939 --> 00:09:30,720 Like one, somebody designed the data set of what names get 179 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,850 auto corrected or not, right? 180 00:09:32,850 --> 00:09:34,410 And so that was a design decision. 181 00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:36,420 And then two, like how that algorithm works. 182 00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:41,370 Like you, you text me a few times and you've corrected it and 183 00:09:41,370 --> 00:09:44,280 it no longer, um, prompts you. 184 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,530 The next time, you know, to change my name. 185 00:09:47,834 --> 00:09:53,204 So right now we have data, technology, product experience, systems, and E. 186 00:09:53,235 --> 00:09:56,535 Every one of those things has implications, large and 187 00:09:56,535 --> 00:09:57,990 small, near term and long term. 188 00:09:59,010 --> 00:10:00,600 And this is what we mean by the onion, right? 189 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:06,930 Because there are apps on this phone that have allowed people to band together and 190 00:10:06,930 --> 00:10:12,870 change governments in their city, in their countries to, to really powerful effect. 191 00:10:13,140 --> 00:10:17,370 And those same, those same technologies have enabled things 192 00:10:17,370 --> 00:10:19,560 like intense school bullying. 193 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:19,800 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 194 00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:20,850 Carissa Carter: Right. 195 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:24,450 There's positives and negatives to everything, and you can always, with. 196 00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:25,700 Absolutely. 197 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:27,680 You could do this with anything around you. 198 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:31,970 You could trace it down from the data that was used to make it or power it all 199 00:10:31,970 --> 00:10:36,710 the way up to the systems that govern it and the implications that it has. 200 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,439 Andy Polaine: There's an interesting thing that I think that happens when, 201 00:10:39,439 --> 00:10:43,010 I mean, John Qui took talks about it in a book at this about the semantic zoom. 202 00:10:43,010 --> 00:10:46,040 If you take a, particularly if you take a physical product and you 203 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,490 kind of zoom in and you end up down in the kinda material level of it. 204 00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:53,240 Um, and actually the iPhone's a good example because of the rare earth, 205 00:10:53,329 --> 00:10:55,069 uh, uh, metals in there, right? 206 00:10:55,069 --> 00:10:55,160 Mm-hmm. 207 00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:58,790 Where, but then you zoom out again, you go, okay, this thing exists 208 00:10:58,790 --> 00:11:02,030 in an ecosystem of my, sort of my Apple ecosystem, for example. 209 00:11:02,030 --> 00:11:05,359 And that exists in the kind of marketplace that exists in the world. 210 00:11:05,359 --> 00:11:08,719 And as we're kinda seeing at the moment that, uh, the, the company 211 00:11:08,719 --> 00:11:13,189 Apple is kind of rubbing up against the, the legal frameworks of, of the 212 00:11:13,189 --> 00:11:14,660 EU and the, those kinds of things. 213 00:11:14,935 --> 00:11:18,805 And you kinda kinda zoom right out and you get geopolitics 214 00:11:18,805 --> 00:11:20,660 again, which of course, you know. 215 00:11:21,285 --> 00:11:24,585 Materials that are coming from problematic countries. 216 00:11:24,615 --> 00:11:24,705 Yeah. 217 00:11:24,705 --> 00:11:26,655 You know, that, that all kind of bounce together so it kind of 218 00:11:26,655 --> 00:11:27,915 wraps around the other side again. 219 00:11:28,005 --> 00:11:28,665 Carissa Carter: Absolutely. 220 00:11:28,665 --> 00:11:28,905 Right. 221 00:11:28,905 --> 00:11:33,075 And it's really interesting questions for our own value systems and 222 00:11:33,075 --> 00:11:36,165 what are our ethics and what are our boundaries, our constraints. 223 00:11:36,975 --> 00:11:40,155 Andy Polaine: So you divide the book into intangibles and actionables. 224 00:11:40,365 --> 00:11:43,575 Um, and so I am interested in the. 225 00:11:43,814 --> 00:11:45,675 The book is very, very beautiful, by the way. 226 00:11:46,035 --> 00:11:46,215 Thank you. 227 00:11:46,785 --> 00:11:49,665 When we spoke before, I made a note about the kind of information 228 00:11:49,665 --> 00:11:50,564 architecture of the book. 229 00:11:50,595 --> 00:11:54,135 'cause one of the problems with this, as I'm sure you know, that it's the kind 230 00:11:54,135 --> 00:11:58,215 of peral service design problem is when everything's connected to everything else. 231 00:11:58,215 --> 00:12:01,755 Where do you start and how do you tell something, the story of this stuff? 232 00:12:02,115 --> 00:12:04,125 In a medium that is sequential, really. 233 00:12:04,425 --> 00:12:07,095 So how did you go about that and why did you make that division? 234 00:12:07,605 --> 00:12:10,905 Carissa Carter: Yeah, so the, the, the front half of the book, the intangibles 235 00:12:10,905 --> 00:12:16,275 are about these forces that are making the world feel somewhat unsettled. 236 00:12:16,365 --> 00:12:21,795 Right now, in the back half are the actionables, which is what can we do 237 00:12:21,795 --> 00:12:26,445 about it and what can we do about it from a very personal agency perspective. 238 00:12:27,705 --> 00:12:31,965 And then interspersed throughout the entire book are these short, 239 00:12:31,965 --> 00:12:37,935 speculative fiction stories that paint pictures of moments in the future, 240 00:12:37,935 --> 00:12:39,885 not super far in the future, maybe. 241 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:45,750 You know, 2050 ish years out that really allow us to try on some of the 242 00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:49,860 phenomena that we're talking about at that moment in the nonfiction. 243 00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:55,680 So we, we very much believe in fiction as a way of testing. 244 00:12:55,890 --> 00:12:59,550 How we're gonna show up in the future and do we like what we look like in it. 245 00:12:59,910 --> 00:13:03,600 It's a great prototyping tool and it also allows people to 246 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,189 consume content differently. 247 00:13:05,189 --> 00:13:08,130 I think people are reading very differently than they ever used to. 248 00:13:08,130 --> 00:13:08,189 Hmm. 249 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:13,500 And hooking people through story is often a very engaging way to get 250 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:16,260 them involved in the topics that we're, that we're dealing with. 251 00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:18,720 Andy Polaine: I was interested that you call them histories of the future 252 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:19,785 in the book, and they are mm-hmm. 253 00:13:19,855 --> 00:13:20,694 Quite compelling. 254 00:13:20,694 --> 00:13:21,095 There's some. 255 00:13:21,790 --> 00:13:25,300 I was quite surprised and amazed that you used Apple and Amazon, not the company, 256 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,280 but Amazon Forest example in there. 257 00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:31,569 Only 'cause I, I was thinking, oh, well they actually used Apple's name in this. 258 00:13:32,050 --> 00:13:32,800 Why? 259 00:13:32,890 --> 00:13:37,540 You know, obviously, uh, speculative design is a thing and uh, often used 260 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:41,229 to kind of critique, uh, the future of, you know, where things are going. 261 00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:44,995 I'm interested why you chose to use stories, um, rather than. 262 00:13:45,795 --> 00:13:49,845 Designing artifacts or things and, and using those things as the examples. 263 00:13:50,115 --> 00:13:54,855 Carissa Carter: Well, stories are one way that we can make sense of information. 264 00:13:54,855 --> 00:13:57,105 They're really memorable, right? 265 00:13:57,105 --> 00:14:00,435 Like the, the human mind is wired to create story. 266 00:14:00,825 --> 00:14:03,855 We are, you know, there's a whole section in the book on make believe. 267 00:14:03,885 --> 00:14:04,065 Yeah. 268 00:14:04,425 --> 00:14:09,795 Um, we are, we are wired to find patterns, um, and to see faces like 269 00:14:09,795 --> 00:14:11,865 this is how our brains are set up. 270 00:14:12,195 --> 00:14:14,205 And so by using story. 271 00:14:14,835 --> 00:14:18,855 It, it, it creates a narrative, you know, you can fill in the details, 272 00:14:18,855 --> 00:14:22,095 like if I just talked about an object that might exist in the future. 273 00:14:22,245 --> 00:14:22,845 Okay. 274 00:14:23,265 --> 00:14:26,325 But like, put that object in context and have somebody using it and have 275 00:14:26,325 --> 00:14:30,314 people fighting over it, and then, you know, reacting to it and you 276 00:14:30,314 --> 00:14:33,675 pull in the emotions and it really brings in the whole human experience 277 00:14:33,675 --> 00:14:34,965 when you're, when you use a story. 278 00:14:34,995 --> 00:14:35,325 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 279 00:14:35,595 --> 00:14:35,775 Yeah. 280 00:14:35,775 --> 00:14:36,345 No, I agree. 281 00:14:36,345 --> 00:14:39,165 I, there's a quote you have in there, I think, which is actually 282 00:14:39,165 --> 00:14:42,675 something I've always said, or I was interested to find the quote around. 283 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,270 No one was ever persuaded by the numbers or something. 284 00:14:45,270 --> 00:14:47,340 I was that I think that's in there. 285 00:14:47,340 --> 00:14:49,920 Or maybe I read it today by, from somewhere else. 286 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:53,160 Carissa Carter: I'm not exactly sure which one you're referring to and nobody's ever, 287 00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:54,870 there's just, this could be in there. 288 00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:55,080 This 289 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:00,120 Andy Polaine: idea that, you know, we, we tend to talk about num, well, we. 290 00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:04,140 Businesses and leadership often talk about kind of numbers as these very concrete 291 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,050 things, but obviously any projections in the future are just, just as made 292 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:09,060 up as a, as a speculative fiction. 293 00:15:09,060 --> 00:15:09,240 Right. 294 00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:13,110 But it's actually, I've always found that the, the numbers give people 295 00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:14,939 permission to believe in the story. 296 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,910 Uh, but it's actually the stories you say it's the memorable thing 297 00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:19,530 that people kind of take with them. 298 00:15:19,770 --> 00:15:22,229 Carissa Carter: I mean, and, and, and when you talk about numbers too, right? 299 00:15:22,229 --> 00:15:25,079 You're, you're talking about what you've chosen to measure Yeah. 300 00:15:25,290 --> 00:15:28,110 And what you've chosen to have value and. 301 00:15:28,589 --> 00:15:31,079 There that can be really problematic on its own. 302 00:15:31,079 --> 00:15:31,319 Right. 303 00:15:31,319 --> 00:15:34,620 Because we tend to think that the things that we measure are 304 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:35,849 the things that matter most. 305 00:15:35,849 --> 00:15:38,610 And the minute you decide like, oh, this is our metric. 306 00:15:38,670 --> 00:15:38,969 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 307 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:39,360 Carissa Carter: Right. 308 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:40,680 You're locked into that. 309 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:41,699 Andy Polaine: Yeah, absolutely. 310 00:15:41,699 --> 00:15:44,699 And I, you've, you've got quite a lot, I mean, you've got a lot about this, 311 00:15:44,699 --> 00:15:47,880 but you also, I think you talk about the kind of crime figures somewhere 312 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,425 as well, crime prediction as a sort of problematic thing because, uh mm-hmm. 313 00:15:52,589 --> 00:15:56,790 Because it's, it's based actually on arrest data rather than, um. 314 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,220 You know, actual crimes. 315 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:04,380 'cause if I speed somewhere or break the law and nobody catches me, then 316 00:16:04,415 --> 00:16:06,090 it, it never appears in the data. 317 00:16:06,090 --> 00:16:06,150 Yeah. 318 00:16:07,125 --> 00:16:07,365 Carissa Carter: Right. 319 00:16:07,365 --> 00:16:09,225 And so then where, where are we looking? 320 00:16:09,225 --> 00:16:10,574 Who are we arresting? 321 00:16:10,665 --> 00:16:14,085 It's a self, you know, it's a self building phenomenon. 322 00:16:14,085 --> 00:16:14,235 Yeah. 323 00:16:15,194 --> 00:16:17,415 Andy Polaine: We are obviously in the midst, well, perhaps 324 00:16:17,415 --> 00:16:18,165 we're not in the midst. 325 00:16:18,165 --> 00:16:23,235 Maybe we're coming over the, the peak of an AI hype cycle 326 00:16:23,295 --> 00:16:24,675 at the moment as we speak. 327 00:16:25,095 --> 00:16:26,560 It features a lot in the book. 328 00:16:27,145 --> 00:16:31,705 I would say you are fairly balanced actually, or kind of neutral I'd say 329 00:16:31,705 --> 00:16:35,455 about AI in the book that you're not particularly, I don't think you do 330 00:16:35,455 --> 00:16:37,945 this with any of it actually in the book where you, it's not particularly 331 00:16:37,945 --> 00:16:41,935 that you're screaming, this is kind of terrible, terrible thing, nor are you 332 00:16:41,935 --> 00:16:43,825 kind of saying it's fantastic either. 333 00:16:43,825 --> 00:16:45,625 There's this sort of caution throughout the book. 334 00:16:46,195 --> 00:16:50,755 You have a whole thing around the kind of relationships with AI in the book. 335 00:16:50,755 --> 00:16:52,195 Do we want to talk about that a little bit? 336 00:16:52,460 --> 00:16:56,540 Carissa Carter: Yeah, I mean, well, you know, just to unpack that lead 337 00:16:56,540 --> 00:17:00,740 up there, what was fascinating is we really wrote this book. 338 00:17:01,250 --> 00:17:04,220 The main bulk of the writing was between. 339 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,409 You know, 20, 21, 22, little bit 23, right? 340 00:17:10,409 --> 00:17:14,159 So this AI wave that you're talking about us today, right? 341 00:17:14,159 --> 00:17:15,959 Like it, it hadn't happened yet. 342 00:17:16,530 --> 00:17:19,589 And what was happening as we were writing right, is like. 343 00:17:19,775 --> 00:17:23,615 One thing after another, like just started to come true. 344 00:17:23,675 --> 00:17:23,885 Right? 345 00:17:23,885 --> 00:17:28,535 So like we have, we have double the amount of stories that we threw out because 346 00:17:28,535 --> 00:17:30,845 things were just happening so fast. 347 00:17:31,445 --> 00:17:31,535 Mm-hmm. 348 00:17:31,775 --> 00:17:35,495 That, that acceleration was really, really felt as we were, as we were 349 00:17:35,495 --> 00:17:37,865 writing this in, in particularly with ai. 350 00:17:37,865 --> 00:17:38,105 Right. 351 00:17:38,135 --> 00:17:40,535 Especially with generative ais. 352 00:17:41,340 --> 00:17:47,670 You know, advancements in the last 18 months, and we really did try to 353 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:52,710 toggle between the dystopian, utopian, uh, versions of what might happen 354 00:17:52,710 --> 00:17:57,090 because, you know, we don't believe that either is going to be the case, right? 355 00:17:57,090 --> 00:17:58,920 There's, there is no perfect utopia. 356 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,530 There's a, there's a f there's a figure in the book that. 357 00:18:01,905 --> 00:18:06,345 You know, really says like, even Utopias have a sewage system, which I just love. 358 00:18:06,345 --> 00:18:06,525 Right? 359 00:18:06,525 --> 00:18:11,595 Because it is a, a beautiful Armando drawing of what a sewage system 360 00:18:11,595 --> 00:18:13,125 for a utopia looks like in there. 361 00:18:13,125 --> 00:18:13,995 You should check that out. 362 00:18:14,445 --> 00:18:14,865 Um. 363 00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:21,180 But the reality, right, is like, it's not all going to be doom and gloom either. 364 00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:25,170 And we have to be able to, to work and acknowledge the things that 365 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:28,590 are going wrong as we are pushing forward to try to do the right thing. 366 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:33,720 And I think that's a lot of what is, is troublesome about tech and AI 367 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:39,000 development right now, is that we are really in love with the possibilities 368 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,275 of what might be that we forget to look. 369 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:43,950 What could go wrong along the way. 370 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:44,160 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 371 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:49,260 Carissa Carter: And this culture of shepherding our mistakes into the 372 00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:50,970 future doesn't really exist yet. 373 00:18:51,870 --> 00:18:56,700 And it, it's wonderful that we love to build, I, you know, we 374 00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:58,170 love, we teach people how to build. 375 00:18:58,170 --> 00:18:58,350 Right. 376 00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:02,520 And I don't, I don't want that to go away, but I also want us to take, you know. 377 00:19:03,780 --> 00:19:07,170 Coming back to that onion, like how do we take a whole holistic 378 00:19:07,170 --> 00:19:10,920 view of the effects of what we're building along, along this journey? 379 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,560 Andy Polaine: Talking about mistakes you have in one of the histories of the 380 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,790 future, this idea of the World Creation Council, the UN World Creation Council. 381 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,820 Can you explain what that would be and what its job is? 382 00:19:20,820 --> 00:19:24,750 It's a very, very, it's very, very sad and touching story actually in the book. 383 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:26,910 I dunno how much you want to tell the whole story. 384 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:27,270 Yeah, 385 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,340 Carissa Carter: no, that, that comes in, um. 386 00:19:30,945 --> 00:19:32,625 A story called Hello Mamas. 387 00:19:32,625 --> 00:19:32,685 Hmm. 388 00:19:33,344 --> 00:19:38,564 And in this story, you, if I can distill it really quickly, 389 00:19:38,564 --> 00:19:41,985 there's a son who loses his mother. 390 00:19:43,425 --> 00:19:46,095 And this is taking place in the future. 391 00:19:46,605 --> 00:19:51,555 Um, we don't exactly know how she's, she's passed away, but he, the 392 00:19:51,555 --> 00:19:58,185 son comes to realize that it is, he's the seventh great grandson of 393 00:19:59,055 --> 00:20:04,425 somebody who invented the separate condenser part of the steam engine. 394 00:20:04,485 --> 00:20:04,755 Right. 395 00:20:04,755 --> 00:20:07,635 So like really help the industrial revolution happen. 396 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:07,900 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 397 00:20:09,030 --> 00:20:13,110 Carissa Carter: And you know, if you think about it, they, the things that we 398 00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:17,940 built during that industrial revolution have had outsize impact on the pollution 399 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:19,260 that we have in our world today. 400 00:20:19,950 --> 00:20:20,070 Right? 401 00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:25,169 Like the smoke that was put into the sky, like, like what if we had 402 00:20:25,169 --> 00:20:26,909 done it differently way back then? 403 00:20:27,630 --> 00:20:31,770 And so then that like begs the question of like, how do we allow ourselves to 404 00:20:31,770 --> 00:20:36,480 continue and like get all that incredible progress, but also like take back, 405 00:20:36,510 --> 00:20:40,140 could we ever take back things that we did that, that were troublesome? 406 00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:44,040 And so the, the idea of the World Creation Council that comes up within 407 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:51,480 that story is that maybe there is a place you and like right where you could come 408 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,120 to them and say, Hey, I made a mistake. 409 00:20:54,885 --> 00:20:59,115 With what I built, it's had, it's had problems, can you 410 00:20:59,115 --> 00:21:00,705 help me pull it from the world? 411 00:21:01,274 --> 00:21:01,455 Right? 412 00:21:01,455 --> 00:21:04,185 And how that would happen, like, you know, would take some sort 413 00:21:04,185 --> 00:21:06,225 of like systemic technological. 414 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:10,230 Big breakthroughs to happen, but like what if that was possible? 415 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,010 And so in this story, the main character Dunn is trying to, to 416 00:21:14,010 --> 00:21:19,560 pull his seventh great-grandfather's separate condenser from existence. 417 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:22,320 Then I won't give away exactly what happens, but 418 00:21:22,410 --> 00:21:24,540 Andy Polaine: yeah, so the council's job is to. 419 00:21:25,290 --> 00:21:29,610 Sort of kick into gear and I, I, I would be, I would've to spoil it 420 00:21:29,610 --> 00:21:33,120 in order to say actually how that happens, but what happens at the end. 421 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:38,430 But to really try and remove, you know, this problematic technology 422 00:21:38,550 --> 00:21:41,129 from existence, but you have a whole thing about the sort. 423 00:21:41,129 --> 00:21:42,629 The creator does not suffer any. 424 00:21:43,235 --> 00:21:44,314 Harm from this. 425 00:21:44,314 --> 00:21:49,895 This is like a, a global or un decision to say, you know, we recognize that 426 00:21:49,895 --> 00:21:53,495 people, we don't want to stymie people making things, but we also need to have 427 00:21:53,495 --> 00:21:55,595 a mechanism to do a, a kind of take back. 428 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:55,620 Yeah. 429 00:21:55,620 --> 00:21:55,899 Carissa Carter: Right? 430 00:21:56,135 --> 00:21:56,465 Yeah. 431 00:21:56,465 --> 00:22:00,245 Like, so, like a, there's gotta be a balance between really, you know. 432 00:22:01,170 --> 00:22:06,570 Encouraging people to want to innovate, but also sometimes we don't know the 433 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:11,670 negative effects when we launch something and it can really, it can get beyond us. 434 00:22:11,670 --> 00:22:15,570 I mean, there's been so many examples of, of this in the world. 435 00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:18,750 Like from everything from, from social media, right? 436 00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:21,510 Like in the beginning it's to say hi to your friends. 437 00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:25,500 And now it can be really emotionally, you know, societally. 438 00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:26,470 Troubling. 439 00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:27,400 We're addicted. 440 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,690 We're, you know, yeah. 441 00:22:28,780 --> 00:22:31,150 There's that type of example all the way down to like the coffee 442 00:22:31,150 --> 00:22:35,740 pods that now contribute so much waste or toothbrushes, right? 443 00:22:35,740 --> 00:22:39,280 Like there's like projects, physic products, physical and digital. 444 00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:42,190 How do we allow people to keep that experimentation? 445 00:22:42,885 --> 00:22:46,365 But then is there a way to come together and say like, okay, we 446 00:22:46,365 --> 00:22:48,015 gotta pull this from our society, 447 00:22:48,495 --> 00:22:50,895 Andy Polaine: but isn't there a kind of, you know, all things in moderation 448 00:22:50,895 --> 00:22:55,395 problem there that, that, you know, almost anything in the world has, you know, 449 00:22:55,665 --> 00:23:00,225 including humans, has a positive side and a kind of negative effect, particularly 450 00:23:00,225 --> 00:23:03,105 once it has gone beyond a certain scale. 451 00:23:03,735 --> 00:23:07,965 Uh, and that the kind of fundamental issue underneath this is our obsession with 452 00:23:08,325 --> 00:23:10,845 using growth as the measure of success. 453 00:23:11,564 --> 00:23:15,014 And that if you actually move away from that, then that kind of 454 00:23:15,014 --> 00:23:18,645 ameliorates a kind of lot of the problem rather than the objects themselves. 455 00:23:18,915 --> 00:23:19,304 Carissa Carter: Yeah. 456 00:23:19,304 --> 00:23:22,514 I mean, I do think we're obsessed with speed and efficiency. 457 00:23:22,695 --> 00:23:22,905 Yeah. 458 00:23:22,935 --> 00:23:24,314 As a society, right. 459 00:23:24,585 --> 00:23:30,524 Make everything faster, get that done more quickly, and that has become a new metric. 460 00:23:31,064 --> 00:23:31,995 Is it the only one? 461 00:23:31,995 --> 00:23:32,715 I'm not sure. 462 00:23:33,105 --> 00:23:37,335 I mean, like I, I am thinking about the, the Montreal protocol and our 463 00:23:37,335 --> 00:23:41,385 ability to come together to remove CFCs, chlorofluorocarbons mm-hmm. 464 00:23:41,625 --> 00:23:43,335 From the atmosphere. 465 00:23:43,965 --> 00:23:44,175 Right. 466 00:23:44,175 --> 00:23:47,355 And like their, their existence was to help, you know, aid in 467 00:23:47,355 --> 00:23:49,665 refrigeration more than anything else. 468 00:23:50,085 --> 00:23:50,264 Right. 469 00:23:50,264 --> 00:23:54,225 And so if you are from, if you, if you grew up, were, were around 470 00:23:54,225 --> 00:23:58,300 in the, in the nineties, you know, like you remember that campaign. 471 00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:58,770 Yeah. 472 00:23:58,860 --> 00:24:01,410 To get the whole of the outta the ozone layer. 473 00:24:01,410 --> 00:24:01,590 Right. 474 00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:04,770 That was like a global way that we actually banded together. 475 00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:10,410 I think it was to this date, still the only time that, that we've 476 00:24:10,410 --> 00:24:12,630 had global consensus on anything. 477 00:24:12,780 --> 00:24:12,840 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 478 00:24:12,855 --> 00:24:14,175 Especially to do with the environment. 479 00:24:14,935 --> 00:24:15,865 Carissa Carter: With the environment. 480 00:24:15,865 --> 00:24:16,135 Right. 481 00:24:16,135 --> 00:24:18,385 And like, was that, what was that one about? 482 00:24:18,385 --> 00:24:19,585 Speed and efficiency. 483 00:24:19,585 --> 00:24:23,335 I mean, I do, I, I'm with you on speed and efficiency, but it does feel like we have 484 00:24:23,335 --> 00:24:26,215 the ability to value other things too. 485 00:24:26,215 --> 00:24:28,975 We've seen it, we've seen evidence of it as a society. 486 00:24:29,715 --> 00:24:31,905 Andy Polaine: Well, it's kind of, I mean, it's kind of a growth thing, right? 487 00:24:31,905 --> 00:24:35,865 In the sense that this is the most efficient meaning, uh, in this case, 488 00:24:35,865 --> 00:24:38,145 probably cheapest way of cooling. 489 00:24:38,205 --> 00:24:38,294 Mm-hmm. 490 00:24:38,534 --> 00:24:41,115 And so therefore, that's, that's the thing we're gonna use. 491 00:24:41,115 --> 00:24:44,534 And obviously then it, as it scales, it becomes a, a massive problem. 492 00:24:44,955 --> 00:24:46,425 And, but partly it's also about. 493 00:24:46,425 --> 00:24:49,780 This idea of not thinking in terms of ecosystems, not, there's, there's a guy 494 00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:53,650 called Joe McLoud, who, who, who writes and talks all about the ends and endings, 495 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,440 you know, of the onboarding process. 496 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,200 He's, you know, we talk about the iPhone again, you, you, a whole onboarding 497 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,200 process is beautiful, but the offboarding process is really rubbish, right? 498 00:25:02,260 --> 00:25:02,350 Mm-hmm. 499 00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:07,630 And so we don't really think, or, or, uh, and manufacturers don't take into account 500 00:25:07,630 --> 00:25:11,560 very often the end of life cycle of things as a thing they should be designing. 501 00:25:11,945 --> 00:25:13,985 And here's a whole kind of framework for this, and so, so 502 00:25:13,985 --> 00:25:15,245 part of it's that as well, right? 503 00:25:15,245 --> 00:25:21,005 Which is if you are focused on growth as the metric and you 504 00:25:21,005 --> 00:25:22,565 know it's mostly money, right? 505 00:25:22,565 --> 00:25:27,065 It's mostly sort of growth of the business, then the kind of rubbish 506 00:25:27,065 --> 00:25:28,775 end of it, the disposal end of it. 507 00:25:28,835 --> 00:25:30,575 Well, that's not a growth thing, right? 508 00:25:30,785 --> 00:25:32,165 Really, unless. 509 00:25:32,275 --> 00:25:36,895 People go properly circular, so therefore you kind of end up with, um, that's the 510 00:25:36,895 --> 00:25:40,795 bit that gets ignored 'cause no one's measuring that as a metric of success. 511 00:25:40,795 --> 00:25:44,305 Whereas instead, if you said, well, how much, if the measure of success of a 512 00:25:44,305 --> 00:25:48,445 company was not how much it had grown, but how much it had reduced its waste or 513 00:25:48,445 --> 00:25:50,635 its, you know, output in, in some way. 514 00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:53,429 I mean, these are the kind of degrowth arguments, right? 515 00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:57,600 Then that measurement and the way we kind of think about success 516 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,850 would radically change the behavior. 517 00:26:00,419 --> 00:26:02,970 I mean, I guess your book is kind of full of little things like this of like 518 00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:06,210 how do you change behavior through, through changing what we measure and 519 00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:07,530 what we think about and focus on, right? 520 00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:08,879 Carissa Carter: Yeah, absolutely. 521 00:26:08,879 --> 00:26:10,409 I agree with that entirely. 522 00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:12,450 I think if you look at. 523 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:17,399 Productivity, you know, and then coming back to technology and AI too, right? 524 00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:24,659 If you look at like data of, uh, from at least the United States, US Department of 525 00:26:24,659 --> 00:26:29,610 Labor, if you look at their data, American productivity really has stayed fairly 526 00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:34,379 flat since about 2007, eight ish maybe. 527 00:26:34,379 --> 00:26:35,520 Goes up slightly. 528 00:26:35,564 --> 00:26:35,854 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 529 00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:36,360 Yeah. 530 00:26:37,139 --> 00:26:40,980 Carissa Carter: And in a parallel timeframe, you see 531 00:26:41,010 --> 00:26:46,830 our micro-processor speed, like continue to increase exponentially. 532 00:26:47,429 --> 00:26:51,030 So we're making faster and faster computing devices, but we're 533 00:26:51,030 --> 00:26:52,169 not getting more productive. 534 00:26:54,450 --> 00:26:58,350 And if you think about like what else is happening around that time, like 535 00:26:58,350 --> 00:27:03,780 that's really about the same time that you start to see the iPhone, right? 536 00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:09,750 And you start to share video, you know, use video as a medium of, of 537 00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:11,970 sharing information more and more. 538 00:27:12,660 --> 00:27:18,060 And so then this, this, this beg of the question of like to what end? 539 00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:18,270 Like. 540 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,610 Do you feel like you have more space in your day to do things now, or do you 541 00:27:23,610 --> 00:27:25,950 feel more harried and frazzled than ever? 542 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:26,130 Mm-hmm. 543 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:31,080 Yeah, and, and I'm not sure how many of us think that we are actually, 544 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,220 you know, that this technology has freed us up to be more. 545 00:27:35,545 --> 00:27:37,255 You know, productive elsewhere. 546 00:27:37,675 --> 00:27:40,225 Andy Polaine: No, I mean, that's the whole kind of the, I can't remember 547 00:27:40,225 --> 00:27:43,885 who originally wrote this about sort of ai, you know, so I, my dream was 548 00:27:43,885 --> 00:27:46,735 always that kind of AI was gonna do the drudge work and I was gonna, 549 00:27:46,765 --> 00:27:49,580 it was gonna free me up to kind of make music and, and I love that. 550 00:27:49,645 --> 00:27:50,335 And images. 551 00:27:50,515 --> 00:27:50,785 I love that. 552 00:27:50,785 --> 00:27:53,095 And it's the kind of where the opposite is true. 553 00:27:53,125 --> 00:27:53,215 Mm-hmm. 554 00:27:53,515 --> 00:27:54,775 That we'd just become slaves to it. 555 00:27:55,225 --> 00:27:59,785 I always, the example I have quite often, I've got a robot vacuum cleaner. 556 00:27:59,860 --> 00:28:03,580 And it's got a water tank and a fresh water tank and a dirty water tank. 557 00:28:03,939 --> 00:28:08,649 And I regularly get these poorly worded notifications on my phone, 558 00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:12,219 uh, which are like empty the water tank, ASAP and oh my God. 559 00:28:12,219 --> 00:28:12,310 Okay. 560 00:28:12,850 --> 00:28:16,090 And I feel like I've just become this kind of, this slave to 561 00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:17,590 my, my robot vacuum cleaner. 562 00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:20,679 That kind of demands to be emptied and to be filled and to be, you 563 00:28:20,679 --> 00:28:23,679 know, you need to do this bit of maintenance, the brush knee replacing. 564 00:28:23,725 --> 00:28:24,344 Oh god. 565 00:28:24,615 --> 00:28:24,905 Okay. 566 00:28:27,815 --> 00:28:30,275 And part of it's actually just the tone of voice is really off. 567 00:28:30,275 --> 00:28:33,185 But part of it is like, you know, as we all know, the little red dots 568 00:28:33,185 --> 00:28:36,365 and the notification or, you know, you see people's emails and they, 569 00:28:36,485 --> 00:28:37,835 they haven't turned off that badge. 570 00:28:37,925 --> 00:28:38,015 Mm-hmm. 571 00:28:38,255 --> 00:28:42,995 And so it's got sort of, you know, 50,000 unread emails and we've become these 572 00:28:42,995 --> 00:28:44,585 kind of real slaves that those devices. 573 00:28:45,275 --> 00:28:49,595 Carissa Carter: Is it a hard, is it a, is it a, um, a smart vacuum cleaner? 574 00:28:49,595 --> 00:28:52,235 Like is it, is it connected? 575 00:28:52,470 --> 00:28:52,530 It 576 00:28:53,130 --> 00:28:53,400 Andy Polaine: is to the 577 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,450 Carissa Carter: cloud in some way. 578 00:28:54,930 --> 00:28:58,950 Andy Polaine: It, it, it is supposedly it's not sharing my data. 579 00:28:58,955 --> 00:28:59,035 Mm-hmm. 580 00:28:59,115 --> 00:29:01,680 But it could well be sharing the, the math of my house. 581 00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:01,920 Mm-hmm. 582 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:02,220 Yeah. 583 00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:02,520 So, you know 584 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:03,750 Carissa Carter: where I was going with that, right? 585 00:29:03,755 --> 00:29:04,260 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 586 00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:05,790 Which is another fascinating thing. 587 00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:11,310 Like we, we are like, it brings me into the topic of privacy, right. 588 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:14,760 And what is still sacred. 589 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:15,060 Right. 590 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,880 Because like, let's just say hypothetically that, that, that 591 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,760 is sharing your data in under the. 592 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,840 Assumption that by knowing the footprint of your home, right, and knowing the 593 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,909 type of cleaning products you need, it could reorder its special soap at 594 00:29:32,909 --> 00:29:37,169 the right frequency, and you wouldn't have to do it right, like all under 595 00:29:37,169 --> 00:29:40,080 the guise of making your life easier. 596 00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:45,480 But is it okay that that company knows exactly where your furniture is? 597 00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:46,980 Andy Polaine: No, it's not. 598 00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:50,909 The good thing is the robot sometimes gets lost and I have to rebuild the map again. 599 00:29:51,870 --> 00:29:53,879 So, uh, I don't think it's that smart just yet. 600 00:29:53,879 --> 00:29:54,450 But it could be. 601 00:29:54,450 --> 00:29:56,639 You have you, so you have a whole, you have a whole section 602 00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:58,170 about data actually in the book. 603 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:58,649 Mm-hmm. 604 00:29:58,889 --> 00:30:00,330 Uh, maybe you could kind of talk about that a little 605 00:30:00,330 --> 00:30:02,129 actually, given the, the topic. 606 00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:02,639 Carissa Carter: Yeah. 607 00:30:02,639 --> 00:30:05,940 I mean, data's, everything is data, right? 608 00:30:05,940 --> 00:30:10,740 And in this, in, I think we're in this data grab phase of 609 00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:12,540 society right now too, because. 610 00:30:13,365 --> 00:30:16,305 Every technology needs data to power itself. 611 00:30:16,545 --> 00:30:20,085 Yet the thing that we're gonna see more and more, and we already see it, right, 612 00:30:20,085 --> 00:30:21,975 is that where data pools lies power. 613 00:30:22,455 --> 00:30:22,514 Hmm. 614 00:30:23,175 --> 00:30:29,085 And so right now, like as organizations collect more and more user data, data 615 00:30:29,085 --> 00:30:33,135 on the world, who has the ability to store that data, even if we 616 00:30:33,135 --> 00:30:37,155 don't know what we're going to use it for yet, that will have value. 617 00:30:37,215 --> 00:30:37,514 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 618 00:30:37,574 --> 00:30:37,814 Carissa Carter: Right. 619 00:30:37,814 --> 00:30:42,284 We are all familiar with the, the phenomenon that totally exists right 620 00:30:42,284 --> 00:30:45,254 now where your, your data is sold. 621 00:30:46,245 --> 00:30:50,595 To third party organizations, sometimes, many times without your consent, at least 622 00:30:50,595 --> 00:30:55,395 in the United States, better, better in Europe, um, and elsewhere in the world. 623 00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:55,665 Right. 624 00:30:55,665 --> 00:30:56,385 But yeah. 625 00:30:56,475 --> 00:30:57,795 Should you own it right? 626 00:30:57,885 --> 00:31:00,045 Should you own it yourself as an individual? 627 00:31:00,795 --> 00:31:02,355 I think most of us might feel that way. 628 00:31:02,355 --> 00:31:03,165 At least I do. 629 00:31:03,310 --> 00:31:03,600 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 630 00:31:03,675 --> 00:31:03,945 Yeah. 631 00:31:04,245 --> 00:31:04,485 But 632 00:31:04,515 --> 00:31:07,215 Carissa Carter: how, how this is gonna play out, I think we'll have profound 633 00:31:07,215 --> 00:31:09,675 implications for decisions that are made. 634 00:31:09,705 --> 00:31:12,615 Who gets to, who gets to decide what to do with all of that data? 635 00:31:13,020 --> 00:31:15,150 Andy Polaine: I mean, you, you talk about it a bit in the book, but 636 00:31:15,150 --> 00:31:19,260 there's that, I think a lot of people underestimate just how much, you know, 637 00:31:19,260 --> 00:31:22,230 everyone goes, well, you know, my mom will kind of go, well, you know, who 638 00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:25,980 cares that I've been to kind of the, the supermarket, uh, today in Iran? 639 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:26,820 I don't care. 640 00:31:27,210 --> 00:31:30,300 But I think people underestimate how much there are different sets 641 00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,750 of data can be pulled together to know an awful lot about Someone. 642 00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:36,780 I remember at a company I worked at, there was a data analyst and said, 643 00:31:36,780 --> 00:31:41,040 well, you know, I'd look at, you might have anonymized purchase records. 644 00:31:41,130 --> 00:31:42,360 You might only see the last. 645 00:31:42,975 --> 00:31:46,935 Two digits or you know, some tiny bit of metadata around the actual 646 00:31:46,935 --> 00:31:48,195 kind of purchase of this thing. 647 00:31:48,195 --> 00:31:51,735 But, you know, in the shopping center, when you've logged onto their wifi to 648 00:31:51,735 --> 00:31:55,304 also kind of, because you want free wifi, where while you're in the, uh, shopping 649 00:31:55,304 --> 00:31:57,225 mall, all of that has tracked you. 650 00:31:57,225 --> 00:32:00,284 And if we pull those two, two together, I know exactly who's bought what 651 00:32:00,315 --> 00:32:03,375 when, because I can just kind of pull all this data, uh, points together. 652 00:32:03,764 --> 00:32:04,845 And I think people kind of do. 653 00:32:05,415 --> 00:32:10,155 Not really understand how much, uh, can be found out about you in that way. 654 00:32:10,695 --> 00:32:13,455 And, you know, the privacy is one of those things that sort of gone 655 00:32:13,455 --> 00:32:14,715 through cycles, over history. 656 00:32:14,715 --> 00:32:14,865 Right. 657 00:32:14,895 --> 00:32:19,335 And early, a few hundred years ago, you had, people had no sense 658 00:32:19,335 --> 00:32:20,475 of a kind of right of privacy. 659 00:32:20,504 --> 00:32:23,024 'cause they lived very close to each certain in cities, lived very 660 00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:26,415 close to each other, often the large extended families in a small house. 661 00:32:27,075 --> 00:32:28,754 Uh, and then kind of prophecy became a thing. 662 00:32:29,385 --> 00:32:30,405 And then, um. 663 00:32:30,460 --> 00:32:34,870 Uh, as a sort of concept and, and it's sort of going away again, I'm sure, you 664 00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:38,110 know, there's, there's quite a lot of apathy amongst kind of gen Zs about that. 665 00:32:38,110 --> 00:32:41,020 Like, it's just, you know, that, that ship us out. 666 00:32:41,140 --> 00:32:46,240 Carissa Carter: I think the thing that worries me right now is that that data 667 00:32:46,330 --> 00:32:50,140 that we, maybe, that apathy exists, right? 668 00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:56,410 And people are giving away that location, their, their purchase history. 669 00:32:57,070 --> 00:32:57,160 Mm-hmm. 670 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,260 That data's then like repackaged and given to you, right? 671 00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:07,530 And it sways your next decision based on the media that's presented back to you. 672 00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:12,240 Mm. Based on the directions that you're given to get from here to there based 673 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:13,680 on so many different factors, right? 674 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,930 Because an organization wants you to engage in their products and. 675 00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:24,330 It starts to get to a moment where I worry that my thoughts and 676 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:26,400 behaviors aren't my own anymore 677 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,190 Andy Polaine: are that you're being nudged sort of unconsciously. 678 00:33:29,250 --> 00:33:31,080 Carissa Carter: That I am being manipulated. 679 00:33:31,530 --> 00:33:31,770 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 680 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,220 Carissa Carter: And right now it, I think all of our 681 00:33:35,220 --> 00:33:36,810 behaviors are being manipulated. 682 00:33:36,810 --> 00:33:39,180 I mean, this is the polarization of the internet. 683 00:33:39,570 --> 00:33:42,000 I just, you know, one video. 684 00:33:43,094 --> 00:33:46,604 Makes you, you watch this one video and it says, oh, you might also like, right? 685 00:33:46,604 --> 00:33:50,354 Like that is a well-documented phenomenon in things like YouTube that they've 686 00:33:50,354 --> 00:33:52,725 worked really hard to combat, right? 687 00:33:52,725 --> 00:33:57,135 But we know that, that our behaviors can be nudge. 688 00:33:57,344 --> 00:33:58,665 But is there a moment when. 689 00:33:59,850 --> 00:34:03,419 My thoughts aren't even my own thoughts, like, and I'm getting a little bit 690 00:34:03,419 --> 00:34:08,549 philosophical here, but I do worry that our technologies are morphing our 691 00:34:08,549 --> 00:34:13,350 own psyches in ways that we may not yet totally understand or appreciate. 692 00:34:13,665 --> 00:34:17,054 Andy Polaine: I think, you know, I had Oliver Stein on who, uh, makes the 693 00:34:17,054 --> 00:34:20,985 app IA writer and they have a sort of quite a stance on the ai and in his 694 00:34:21,045 --> 00:34:24,435 one is, why should I read something that you haven't bothered to write? 695 00:34:24,824 --> 00:34:27,764 And one of the things they kind of put in, built into the latest 696 00:34:27,764 --> 00:34:29,324 version was this authorship mode. 697 00:34:29,324 --> 00:34:33,525 So that if you do paste some content in, uh, you can label it as ai. 698 00:34:33,530 --> 00:34:33,670 Mm-hmm. 699 00:34:33,755 --> 00:34:36,554 And it kind of pasts it in as kind of, sort of grayed out 700 00:34:36,554 --> 00:34:39,284 slightly so that as you start to. 701 00:34:39,779 --> 00:34:42,900 Rewrite it, you know, in a, in a sense it's kinda like a game, like how can 702 00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:45,540 I kind of turn all that gray back to black again with my own words? 703 00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:49,949 But there is this really compelling problem with that, where you read 704 00:34:49,949 --> 00:34:52,170 it and you go, wow, I can't really think of a better way to put that. 705 00:34:52,830 --> 00:34:54,480 And so I might as well leave it how it is. 706 00:34:54,540 --> 00:34:58,110 I mean, you're at D School, I have students too, and, uh, 707 00:34:58,170 --> 00:35:01,259 this is, this is definitely an issue, uh, um, where I think, um, 708 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,580 Carissa Carter: this was. 709 00:35:03,135 --> 00:35:07,755 You know, we, we have a graduate program where you read essays for 710 00:35:07,755 --> 00:35:09,375 everybody that's coming into Stanford. 711 00:35:09,375 --> 00:35:13,185 And I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of people are talking, you know, around 712 00:35:13,185 --> 00:35:17,835 the globe as to, you know, people that have this year used AI to write essays. 713 00:35:18,225 --> 00:35:22,935 And I think one thing that, while I didn't see any like blatant people 714 00:35:23,025 --> 00:35:27,555 pasting in the chat, GPT says blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you 715 00:35:27,555 --> 00:35:29,385 know, in their own personal essay. 716 00:35:29,490 --> 00:35:29,780 Yeah. 717 00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:34,350 There was a phenomenon I noticed this year that was different, which is that I 718 00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:37,200 felt like there was a lot of pandering. 719 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:45,870 I. And you know, like in a way that it seemed like maybe the entire text of, of 720 00:35:45,870 --> 00:35:48,990 the program website had been plugged in. 721 00:35:49,230 --> 00:35:49,529 Right. 722 00:35:49,529 --> 00:35:53,190 And then repackaged in a way to be like, let me tell you 723 00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:54,960 how wonderful your program is. 724 00:35:55,380 --> 00:35:58,410 And like, I, it just felt like, oh, there's something 725 00:35:58,410 --> 00:36:00,359 going on with that phenomenon. 726 00:36:00,424 --> 00:36:01,170 Andy Polaine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 727 00:36:01,350 --> 00:36:01,560 Yeah. 728 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,740 There there's definitely kind of little signatures that you start to read. 729 00:36:04,740 --> 00:36:04,830 Mm-hmm. 730 00:36:05,069 --> 00:36:06,660 I mean, I find it fascinating that you can tell. 731 00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:09,360 You can kind of tell the difference between a mid journey 732 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:10,950 image and a Dali image, right? 733 00:36:10,955 --> 00:36:11,135 Mm-hmm. 734 00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:14,430 And I'm kind of fascinated that in a pretty short amount of 735 00:36:14,430 --> 00:36:18,750 time you can kind of spot the tells, you know, of those things. 736 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,800 And I, I kind of feel there is a bit of that, but you know, there's 737 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,525 also makes me then start to wonder how much I. Then, but I know exactly 738 00:36:26,525 --> 00:36:27,875 what you mean by the pandering thing. 739 00:36:27,875 --> 00:36:29,945 It is like, it's like kind of SEO, right? 740 00:36:29,945 --> 00:36:33,485 It's like someone's pulled in all the keywords and then you kind of read it 741 00:36:33,485 --> 00:36:37,775 back and again was kind of saying all the right things, but it's a bit soulless. 742 00:36:37,775 --> 00:36:41,105 There's a kind of uncanny valley aspect to those texts I 743 00:36:41,105 --> 00:36:42,575 think that, um, that show up. 744 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,455 Carissa Carter: And, and, and then let me just give you the flip too, right. 745 00:36:46,134 --> 00:36:51,955 The amount of ways that I'm a, um, you know, like welcomed into, I 746 00:36:51,955 --> 00:36:53,424 just came back from vacation, right? 747 00:36:53,424 --> 00:36:58,855 And I used Suno to make a song for my out of office message, right? 748 00:36:58,855 --> 00:37:01,735 And it was so fun to do that. 749 00:37:02,005 --> 00:37:05,634 I could never have just composed a song in 15 minutes. 750 00:37:06,055 --> 00:37:10,105 But here, all of a sudden, like that, AI has helped me. 751 00:37:11,355 --> 00:37:15,615 Do something fun and creative that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. 752 00:37:15,825 --> 00:37:19,005 In no way does that make me a songwriter or a musician. 753 00:37:19,005 --> 00:37:19,095 Mm-hmm. 754 00:37:19,395 --> 00:37:23,235 Which is just like, let's park that as a, as a thing. 755 00:37:23,235 --> 00:37:24,465 But like it, it's. 756 00:37:25,305 --> 00:37:27,944 Allow me to participate in ways that I wouldn't before. 757 00:37:27,944 --> 00:37:30,375 And like, I think that's incredible, right? 758 00:37:30,375 --> 00:37:33,044 Because a lot of times some of these, some of these fields are 759 00:37:33,044 --> 00:37:36,345 really inaccessible to people that wouldn't have access otherwise. 760 00:37:36,884 --> 00:37:37,065 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 761 00:37:37,065 --> 00:37:38,234 I'm totally split on that. 762 00:37:38,234 --> 00:37:41,565 I have to admit the same because I, I, I remember the rise of blogging 763 00:37:41,714 --> 00:37:41,805 mm-hmm. 764 00:37:42,345 --> 00:37:43,935 And the blogging platforms and it. 765 00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:48,540 I had a blog before, you know, when I actually had, so just individually upload 766 00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:53,759 the HTML files and to, and sort of add it to my website, um, in like 1996 or 767 00:37:53,759 --> 00:37:57,690 something, when things like Blogger and, and WordPress and a couple of other 768 00:37:57,779 --> 00:38:02,005 earlier tools came out, it democratized publishing stuff onto the web, right? 769 00:38:02,005 --> 00:38:02,285 Mm-hmm. 770 00:38:02,404 --> 00:38:05,730 And so you suddenly got, because you didn't, you know, instead of having. 771 00:38:06,285 --> 00:38:08,925 Blogs that were mostly tech based, from tech people. 772 00:38:09,045 --> 00:38:09,135 Mm-hmm. 773 00:38:09,555 --> 00:38:14,235 You suddenly got, you know, the whole growth of diverse voices across 774 00:38:14,235 --> 00:38:18,015 the, the web and you know, so in that sense it was kind of amazing. 775 00:38:18,165 --> 00:38:21,075 Of course, we've sort of seen the, we're seeing the opposite happen now 776 00:38:21,525 --> 00:38:24,675 of all these kind of ward gardens, which sort of reduced them down 777 00:38:24,675 --> 00:38:25,815 and created these echo chambers. 778 00:38:25,815 --> 00:38:28,905 But, well, I guess it goes back to my point before sort of anything that we 779 00:38:28,905 --> 00:38:32,295 put out in the world has a, has its positive side, but, but also kind of 780 00:38:32,295 --> 00:38:35,055 in excess, uh, has its negative side. 781 00:38:35,460 --> 00:38:39,690 In the end of the book, you have a call to action and you talk about 782 00:38:39,690 --> 00:38:42,690 design for healing, and you have sort of some principles in there. 783 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,660 Could you tell us a little bit about what those are? 784 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:46,290 Carissa Carter: Yeah. 785 00:38:46,590 --> 00:38:52,890 Uh, the headline is that anything that you put into the world, whether 786 00:38:52,890 --> 00:39:00,600 that be a thing, a system, a routine, absolutely everything is going to 787 00:39:00,690 --> 00:39:03,450 either break or break something else. 788 00:39:03,660 --> 00:39:04,230 And. 789 00:39:04,650 --> 00:39:09,240 Instead of just trying to mitigate breakage all the time, how do we 790 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:13,320 design for healing and healing the mistakes in the, in the effects 791 00:39:13,350 --> 00:39:14,790 of what we put into the world? 792 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:20,010 So how do you continue to shepherd what we make into the future instead 793 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,430 of putting out there and just. 794 00:39:22,110 --> 00:39:23,850 And, and saying it's one and done. 795 00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:26,940 And so our call to action is to really understand that that's going 796 00:39:26,940 --> 00:39:30,750 to happen and that that should be a piece of your design work. 797 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,290 Is the full, bringing it fully into the future as well. 798 00:39:35,430 --> 00:39:35,490 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 799 00:39:35,490 --> 00:39:39,150 I think one of the things to learn from those histories of the future stories, 800 00:39:39,150 --> 00:39:42,480 it's often we tend to sort of start from the beginning and kind of then 801 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,370 create a thing and then, and that's it. 802 00:39:44,370 --> 00:39:47,190 But actually starting from the end is a, is a better place to start 803 00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:48,570 sometimes rather than the beginning. 804 00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:49,680 Carissa Carter: I love that. 805 00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:49,980 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 806 00:39:51,044 --> 00:39:52,605 So, uh, we're coming up to time. 807 00:39:52,605 --> 00:39:55,125 As you know, the show is named after the, the Eames film. 808 00:39:55,125 --> 00:39:59,714 We talked about at the beginning what one small thing is either overlooked 809 00:39:59,745 --> 00:40:03,165 or could be redesigned that would have an outsized effect on the world. 810 00:40:03,404 --> 00:40:04,515 Carissa Carter: I thought a lot about this. 811 00:40:05,085 --> 00:40:06,254 I'm gonna say sunscreen. 812 00:40:07,004 --> 00:40:07,395 Andy Polaine: Oh, 813 00:40:07,845 --> 00:40:07,935 okay. 814 00:40:09,674 --> 00:40:11,955 Carissa Carter: There are so many things I could, there are so many things I 815 00:40:11,955 --> 00:40:17,115 could say to answer this question, and I'm saying sunscreen because it has. 816 00:40:17,295 --> 00:40:20,235 I've been in the back of my mind for years. 817 00:40:21,225 --> 00:40:22,725 There's so many assumptions. 818 00:40:23,115 --> 00:40:30,075 One about how we protect ourselves from the sun's radiation. 819 00:40:30,165 --> 00:40:30,435 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 820 00:40:30,645 --> 00:40:34,245 Carissa Carter: One that it like has to be topical and how it works 821 00:40:35,535 --> 00:40:37,755 and it's more and more becoming. 822 00:40:38,505 --> 00:40:43,455 Important as our climate shifts in those UV rays are hitting us more and 823 00:40:43,455 --> 00:40:48,795 more throughout the day, and our rates of skin cancer are increasing rapidly. 824 00:40:49,215 --> 00:40:53,385 And you haven't really seen too much technological innovation within it. 825 00:40:53,385 --> 00:40:53,415 Okay. 826 00:40:54,645 --> 00:40:58,515 If we could protect our skin, our bodies, in different ways, and this 827 00:40:58,515 --> 00:41:02,445 doesn't need to be like a screen, like it could be other ways that 828 00:41:02,445 --> 00:41:06,495 we shield ourselves, it could, you know, be in within our behaviors. 829 00:41:06,495 --> 00:41:09,975 I just, I think that, I think that we could see in incredible shifts. 830 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:10,650 Andy Polaine: Very good. 831 00:41:10,650 --> 00:41:15,240 As a Boardman, I can tell you I wear a hat and stay in the shade as much as possible. 832 00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,210 As a board Englishman, I should probably say, say that, 833 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,060 Carissa Carter: and if anybody's listening that wants to work on this, could you 834 00:41:21,060 --> 00:41:23,280 please make a sunscreen that we can drink? 835 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:29,280 Because I have always wondered why, why can't it be something that we like? 836 00:41:29,715 --> 00:41:30,675 Secrete, right? 837 00:41:30,675 --> 00:41:32,355 Like in your po like drink in the sweats. 838 00:41:32,355 --> 00:41:32,805 Oh, I see that you 839 00:41:32,805 --> 00:41:34,335 Andy Polaine: sort of sweat out and then Yeah. 840 00:41:34,455 --> 00:41:37,755 Carissa Carter: Like versus, versus put on on the outside. 841 00:41:37,755 --> 00:41:38,175 So. 842 00:41:38,715 --> 00:41:39,105 Andy Polaine: All right. 843 00:41:39,345 --> 00:41:40,125 That's a good idea. 844 00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:42,675 But don't drink sunscreen right now? 845 00:41:42,675 --> 00:41:42,915 No. 846 00:41:43,845 --> 00:41:46,185 Where can people find you and, and Scott? 847 00:41:46,185 --> 00:41:46,605 Indeed. 848 00:41:46,605 --> 00:41:47,835 Online and Armando. 849 00:41:48,165 --> 00:41:48,315 Carissa Carter: Yeah. 850 00:41:48,315 --> 00:41:51,315 Well, both of us work as a Stanford D school, which, um. 851 00:41:51,735 --> 00:41:54,645 Has all of the, the D school tags around the internet. 852 00:41:54,885 --> 00:41:58,665 Um, you can find both of us on, on LinkedIn as well. 853 00:41:58,725 --> 00:41:59,805 Um, Carissa Carter. 854 00:41:59,805 --> 00:42:05,265 He's Scott Doley, and you can find, uh, the book anywhere books are sold. 855 00:42:05,595 --> 00:42:05,835 Andy Polaine: Correct? 856 00:42:06,015 --> 00:42:07,420 I'll put all the links in the show notes. 857 00:42:07,815 --> 00:42:08,355 Carissa Carter: Thank you. 858 00:42:08,445 --> 00:42:10,845 Andy Polaine: Thank you so much for being my guest on Power of 10. 859 00:42:11,025 --> 00:42:11,925 Carissa Carter: Thanks for having me, Andy. 860 00:42:11,925 --> 00:42:13,335 It was great to chat with you this morning. 861 00:42:13,485 --> 00:42:15,465 Andy Polaine: You've been watching and listening to Power of 10. 862 00:42:15,465 --> 00:42:18,645 You can find more about the show on paule.com where you can also check 863 00:42:18,645 --> 00:42:22,305 out my leadership coaching practice on my courses, as well as sign 864 00:42:22,305 --> 00:42:23,865 up for my irregular news letter. 865 00:42:23,865 --> 00:42:26,685 Doctor's note, if you have any thoughts, please put them in 866 00:42:26,685 --> 00:42:28,035 the comments or get in touch. 867 00:42:28,395 --> 00:42:33,345 You'll find me as April Lane on PKM Social, on LinkedIn, on my website, and 868 00:42:33,345 --> 00:42:34,605 all the links are in the show notes too. 869 00:42:35,275 --> 00:42:36,745 Thanks for watching and listening. 870 00:42:37,015 --> 00:42:37,720 I'll see you next time.