>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week I, meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges.

Today I'm speaking to Lauren, who's been sober for

11 and a half years. We're talking about her

experience of addiction and sobriety. This

conversation with Lauren has really challenged my

own views of addiction. So, Lauren, how did you

first get introduced to drugs?

>> Lauren: The first drug that caused me problems was

definitely alcohol. And I started drinking when I

was probably around 13. And I know that these days

for a 13 year old to walk into a shop and buy

alcohol is virtually impossible because they've

got all kinds of rules about ID and stuff. Wasn't

so much the case. It was still illegal. But people

turned a blind eye to kids buying alcohol when I

was younger, so it was easier to access, it was

expensive. So I had to, you know, couldn't afford

to buy too much, but I could get my hands on

alcohol quite early. And my group of friends were

really into drinking and I grew up in South London

and we go to the park and we'd drink and someone

throwing up or blacking out was, was kind of.

Someone did it every time. So it was, it wasn't

that. It wasn't sort of frowned upon so much. It

became frowned upon as I got older. But drinking

was really big and I, as a person who struggled

with social anxiety, would turn up somewhere,

desperate to be light, desperate to be popular.

Found drinking to be like quite a good crutch to

sort of just cut me off from that kind of anxiety

and that worry and just give me what I felt at the

time was a bit of freedom to kind of just enjoy

myself and feel looser. And I carried on drinking

and I was always like one of the heavier drinkers,

and I carried on drinking quite heavily all

through university, and, and things like that. And

universities also. What. What an environment to

drink a lot. It's so encouraged, like 50p shots

come out for these drinks, you know, come to these

bar crawls. And at the time, even though I'd been

raised going to church, I didn't have an active

faith. So I wasn't, you know, I wasn't praying or

trying to bring Jesus into my decision making. I

was just doing whatever felt okay at the time. So

I actually was introduced to illegal drugs, which

then just opened up a whole nother level of

problems for me when I was 22, which is old for

many people when it comes to sort of dabbling with

things. Like, I'd smoked some cannabis before that

and I was around drugs, but I first took cocaine

when I was 22 and I was offered it at party, and

I'd said no a few times before. but actually,

like, cocaine meant that I could drink more and I

really wanted to drink more. And it, it, it's. It

m. Puts in a sort of protective layer for you

chemically, so that you don't end up blacking out

or vomiting from alcohol. So it means that you can

drink a lot more alcohol. Which was a win for me

as a person who absolutely loved to drink alcohol.

but also it came with, from my perspective, kind

of a lifestyle that I wanted. It was the people

around me who were using it, I saw to be quite

fabulous, quite wealthy, you know, popular. And

popularity was always key for me. I wanted to be

liked. So if everyone else was doing it and the

people I admired were doing it, I was gonna be

doing it. But things went wrong for me quite

quickly.

>> Julia: I was gonna add, like, you quite often hear of

stories of celebrities doing it and that kind of

celebrity culture with it as well.

>> Lauren: Yeah, yeah. And they'll be surrounded. The people

who offered it to them will be people who they

admire, people who are in some sort of power

influence, maybe already famous themselves. It

just gets baked into the culture around you to the

point where you're like, well, I want to be.

Everyone wants to be a part of. Everyone wants to

be on the inside. And the circle I was in to be on

the inside was cocaine.

>> Julia: M. For me, it's quite a far away from my

experience growing up, but maybe less so with the

alcohol, like, because I feel we live in a society

where we're quite encouraged to drink. And I've

got friends who, for different reasons, have made

decisions to not drink. And there's always. Or

they might go to an event and they decide not to.

And the next question is, well, why aren't you

drinking? Yeah, so it must be quite hard to not

end up drinking.

>> Lauren: It's so funny. The culture's changed a bit, I'd

say recently when I first got sober, which I'm

sure we'll come to. Yeah, that was over 11 years

ago. And if you looked around online for, for

influences, for support for things like that,

there was, there was one person really vocal about

sobriety and that was Russell Brandt, who's

obviously a very polarising character. Anyway, for

me, many, many reasons and particularly recently,

but he was the only person I really heard being

really honest and open about it. Even though there

are other celebrities who were sober but they

didn't speak so openly. Whereas these days it's,

you know, if you just search on Instagram or

TikTok, there are these whole movements of people,

particularly young people, people are around 20

who for various reasons and sometimes that's

because they were drinking alcoholically and it

was a problem and it did amount to an addiction.

Sometimes just social anxiety. Somet I just don't

want to. And then you've got people who wanna

drive or have decided that for religious reasons

it's not right for them or are pregnant and

actually we don't need to be asking people

questions. You don't have to make someone confess

that they're on antibiotics in a bar, you know.

And I think for a long time there was that, well,

why aren't you drinking? And I would order like a

slimline tonic and some be like gin and tonic. And

I'm like, no, no slimline tonic. And they're like,

no gin, no, no, no gin. Why no gin? And like, come

on, break it. Ah. But increasingly people are a

bit more aware. Not always, but a little bit these

days.

>> Julia: Well, that's a positive sign, I think.

So, so going back to your addiction, were there

any like, physical signs of what addiction was

doing in your life?

>> Lauren: Definitely, definitely. And actually I think, I

didn't really understand them at the time, but

I've gone on to understand them a bit better. The

majority of the physical symptoms I had from using

were a result of alcohol. Alcohol is incredibly

damaging to you physically. And the amount that I

was drink facilitated by cocaine meant that I was

having things like memory loss. I got numbness in

my fingers and toes. I got sort of these spots in

front of my eyes which is. Is nervous damage

behind your eyes. and I got a twitch sometimes

when I started drinking. And you know, bearing in

mind all of this is, is in Aid of popularity. So

I'm in social settings and suddenly my face starts

twitching, which is like, absolutely not what you

want. when you're just trying to be liked and as

fabulous as possible and suddenly you have to sort

of hide yourself away. and then I did get

nosebleeds and that is definitely a direct result

of cocaine use. And, we're seeing more of that

just, just, you know, the week that we're

recording Paris Jackson, Michael Jackson's

daughter, came out on TikTok to say that she's

got, ah, a hole in her septum from cocaine use and

she's now on a recovery journey which hopefully

will, will last forever. but, but so you can do

some real damage to your nose for sure. I didn't,

I didn't get to that point, but I know that it

happens, like, more often than you'd realise.

>> Julia: How did that impact your life? And I mean that in

terms of, were you able to work? Were you able to

like, keep being popular and socialise?

>> Lauren: I did carry on working, but m. I was late, I was

sloppy, I wasn't performing very well and it was

definitely noted. But, but my working environment

was where I was introduced to the drugs. I was

working in, events and marketing for a group of

restaurants. Hospitality, it's a very sort of work

hard, play hard industry. So they were used to it

to an extent. It was accepted maybe more than it

would have been in some other industries. So I got

a little bit further. Socially, though, it started

to cause real problems. my friends start to get

really fed up with me and outside of my work,

friends, my friends who I'd been friends with from

school or from university, they didn't take drugs

and they drank and we would go out and, you know,

go to the pub and things like that, but in a far

more, I mean, what's normal, but in a far more

socially acceptable way. so I started to cause

problems. On nights out, I would disappear, I

would go off to pick up drugs. I would be very

difficult. I would never want to go home. I'd

always encourage them to keep drinking and keep

staying out so that I would have company and

people got really sick of me. yeah. And people did

pull me up on my behaviour. I lost friends over it

for sure.

>> Julia: What was the moment that you realised you'd gone

too far?

>> Lauren: Yeah, so funny. Addicts talk about a rock bottom,

all the time. And that's like the moment that

switched. But sadly, every rock bottom does have a

trapdoor, which is what they say as well, so like

you can think you've got there and then you're

like, oh no, there's more humilia available to me

before I make, an actual life changing decision. I

guess there are, there are a few moments that

really stick with me. I think the one that sticks

with me most is, I had said I was only going to

have one drink and I'd gone out with a friend for

one drink and then she had gone home after that

one drink and I had come home at 4am and I was an

absolute mess and I didn't really remember where

I'd been or what I'd been doing. And she came

bursting through the door that morning. Could we

live together? She came bursting through the door

into my, my room and said like, absolutely not.

You know, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not

going to be supporting you whilst you make these

declarations and make these decisions that you're

not going to do things that you end up doing. And

I, I can't be your friend like this. And she used

language that I won't use, but she was angry. She

was angry. And then I, that morning I was supposed

to be going off on holiday, so I went off on

holiday. Just managed to make, you know, my train

and then flight after that and all of that kind of

stuff. So I got back maybe two or three weeks

later and she sat me down then and she said, I've

looked into it. And so I issued an apology when I

got back and, and we're, we're okay. but she said,

I've looked into support group meetings and I want

you to go to this one. And she had one in mind

that she had selected for me and I said I would go

and it took me a few weeks, but I did eventually

go.

>> Julia: What a good friend.

>> Lauren: Yeah, she is a good friend. She is a good friend.

>> Julia: Because also, like, I can Because you talked

before about losing friends and I can kind of

understand that, that they needed to put their own

boundaries in and protect themselves as well. but

that friend sounds like a real good friend for

you.

>> Lauren: Yeah, she was, she's. Yeah, she's amazing.

>> Julia: Did at any point the heavy drinking and doing the

drugs like make you feel better short term? Was

that like part of the reason why you kept doing

it? Was it like you got a buzz or maybe a buzz

isn't the right word for it, but.

>> Lauren: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Drugs are like

absolutely phenomenal tools. Like they offer

reasonably unparalleled protection from your pain.

And your emotions in the short term, you know,

like obviously knowing what I know now in the,

that, you know, that is not a, that is not an easy

fix, is not, is no fix at all. Right. But with so

few tools at my disposal, at the time to process

anything that I was going through, like I, I, I do

not feel at all bad for having made that choice

with what I had at the time. I'm very sad for

myself and I would do anything I could to stop

somebody else making that choice because of the

implications and the knock on effect down the

road. But I was hurting for a number of reasons

and I didn't have a therapist, I didn't understand

how I was feeling. I was very young. I didn't have

a faith or an, or a sort of active relationship

with Jesus. I didn't know that if I invested in

myself long term it wouldn't be an immediate

answer, but it would, it would bring peace that I

needed down the line. So actually, you know, drugs

and alcohol were my solution rather than my

problem. They were firefighters to help me get

through fire. And Yeah, and they were incredibly

effective but, but also ineffective in the long

term.

>> Julia: Yeah, I guess they also were your solution. But

also the long building to the problem in the

longer term as well.

>> Lauren: Well, no, they were a solution to the problem but

they brought their own problems. So they didn't

change or exacerbate any of the original problems,

but they just lumped on some new ones. which makes

dealing with any problem harder because you're

suddenly drowning in like more problems. Yeah. So

it all just becomes totally unmanageable. I think

when, when I see that somebody's in the early days

of sobriety, actually what you're saying is this

is a person who for one reason or another needed a

crutch. Right. Needed to turn to alcohol, drugs or

some other behaviour that has, has caused them

damage. they needed something, distraction or

support or something and that's what they turned

to wrongly for sure, but that's what they turned

to. So the person with a problem, they've lumped a

whole load more problems on themselves. They've

got a dependence. They probably have very low

emotional understanding of themselves. Virtually

no tools to solve that problem. They've probably

alienated themselves from the people in their

lives around them. Their friends, their family.

They've created this massive bin fire of their

life. And then on that first day you're saying to

that person, fix it. They've got nothing. It is

genuinely an absolute miracle when somebody from

that place Having created such a message with like

literally nothing in their hands to stoop down and

start rebuilding with, manages to make that

decision and stick to it. I. I see. I see Jesus in

that. Every time I'm like, I cannot believe that

you have, ach. Like you have achieved effectively

the impossible when. When you manage to do that.

And I think that the only reason people are able

to do that is because, often because they have

support and they're not doing it on their own. I

think to do it on your own is like, impossible,

really.

>> Julia: So what led to you having that moment, reaching up

and pulling yourself out, I guess.

>> Lauren: Well, that was my friend sending me to the

recovery meeting. So then I turned up there and,

it was a drug support meeting, which is usually

like, full of men. if we were to like walk into

any sort of drug support meeting in London, where

we're recording now, probably the demographic

would be like two thirds men and often and quite a

bit older than I was at the time. I was 25. But by

the grace of God, I walked into a room of women in

their 20s. And that's never happened to me since,

like, at any meeting I've gone to. But it was just

women in their 20s. They were all. There was one

woman who had four years sobriety, but most of

them were about three months. So it was just

within reach what they were achieving. And, they

were so supportive and so helpful and they

answered every stupid question I had, just with.

With kindness and understanding. And they talked

in a way that was so relatable for me, but I'd

never heard anyone else speak like that. You know,

having not been around people with, with addiction

problems. And it just felt like. It just felt so

freeing and hopeful. And it was then I called my

sister. My s. In the sort of prodigal story, I'm

the one who was wild and went away. And my sister,

like, stayed in church the whole time. and I

called her and I said, I'm thinking about stopping

drinking. She knew I was trying to stop taking

drugs, but I was like, I think I might stop

drinking. And she was like, you've got to do it.

She's like, I think that'll be the proudest thing

you've ever done. You've got to do it. And I made

the decision then and there that I was going to

try, you know, and that's not easy. And it was

really white knuckling it for the first month or

so. I was just like, watching the clock, waiting

for it to get to like, 9pm So I could go to bed

and I would have done it, I would have made it

through a day. It felt like I was like in a race

to get to the end of the day without drinking, or

taking drugs. And slowly that sort of intensity

and that sort of like tightness in your chest kind

of lifts and you realise, like, okay, no, I'm

doing this. And a big part of that for me was

those support meetings. But also, they said in

those meetings you need a higher power and it's

not you, so work out what that is. And having had

a mum who was Christian when I was younger, I

walked into a church and I asked for prayer and

they really took me under their wing. So it was

the combination of the two.

>> Julia: You preempted my next question, which was, how did

faith become part of your recovery story?

>> Lauren: Yeah, it was them saying, you know, if you're

gonna do this recovery journey, we think that,

that you need a higher power. and I guess as a 25

year old, so my first thing was like, right, just

Google church and see what's around and turn up

somewhere and ask some questions. And I probably,

if that hadn't worked, probably would have been

like a yoga instructor, because that's literally

what everyone does when they go into recovery.

They suddenly do loads of yoga. but I didn't, I,

I, you know, found, found community. I found

support. I found a group of people who were

incredibly patient with me when I had questions

and was like, not aggressive but probably a bit

abrasive, you know, like, I, I definitely had my

guard up against religion and, against the rules

and what people were going to, you know, expect of

me and judge me and all of that kind of stuff. And

I think that that was maybe a bit of a hangover

from the 90s when church was a bit more like that

at times. I think I definitely experienced when I

was younger in church, just feeling judged, just

feeling that there was a standard of behaviour

that the Christians lived up to that I didn't and

that I was not good enough and was never gonna be

good enough for them. But I didn't get that second

time round. I felt I was approached far more from

a place of these guys are also wounded but doing

their best to heal themselves and those around

them rather than, we're fine, so you should be

too. which was really transformational for me.

>> Julia: Pope Francis, the late Pope, he had a quote of

that the Church is a broken laser hospital full of

like, broken people, rather than it's full of

People who are, like, holy and perfect. It's

actually full of people who are wounded.

>> Lauren: Exactly. And that was modelled far better second

time around. For me, it felt like I was, yeah,

surrounded by people who. Who were just doing

their best to get well, rather than sort of like

pious, like, you know, I've achieved it, here's

what you need to do kind of thing.

>> Julia: So how was the process of going sober?

>> Lauren: Gosh, everything in my life was built around

alcohol and then later cocaine, when I was going

to get it, how much I was going to get, when I

would need it, how I'd maintain access, you know,

getting the balance of how much I used or drank.

Right. the. The. The mental arithmetic of drug use

is, like, absolutely unending. Working out the

money, working out how you're going to get to a

cash point, making sure you can pay for it. When

are they coming? Who are you going to tell? How

are you going to lie? You know, all of that kind

of stuff. Stuff. The manipulation is just constant

and it takes up so much of your headspace and so

much of your time is like either being drunk or

high or hungover on a comedown. So actually living

sober, the days felt really long and I had this

space in my mind that I didn't know how to fill.

So for a long time, anytime I walked somewhere, I

counted my steps because, like, my mind was used

to being so full and then suddenly that was gone

and I just couldn't handle it. I couldn't handle

the sort of peace or solitude or quiet or silence.

So I had to fill it. So I just. 1, 2, 3, 4. Every

time I walked anywhere, it was. Yeah, it's really

quite excruciating to let go of something you rely

on so heavily without a structure in place to

replace it. And whilst I was building the

structure through recovery and therapy and church,

I. It wasn't actually built yet. so, no, it's,

like, incredibly difficult. Incredibly difficult.

And it's just moments of hope, words of kindness,

people, you know, just a smile, little squeeze on

the arm. You know, you've got this someone saying,

like, I felt that way too. You know, all of that

just keeps you going and it's very little to cling

on to in the early days, but it is worth it. It is

worth it. and working out how to. I mean, I

thought I was swapping, sort of say this quite a

lot, but I thought I was swapping the misery of

addiction for the misery of abstinence. So working

out what, a full life for a 25 year old girl who

is like so used to partying and things, what a

full whole life looked like on the other side of

that without those things. it took some time. It

took some time for sure.

>> Julia: So you talked about how in those early days you

had real challenges and you only you'd make it

through the day and felt proud of that. But now,

11 and a half years later, do you still have those

moments?

>> Lauren: Yes and no. the struggle I have now with sobriety

is different. I don't feel like I'm on the cusp of

drinking and I think that. But I wouldn't ever

want to be complacent about that. I think that

there would be a hundred steps to a relapse and

sometimes I take 10 of them or 15 of them, you

know, but I catch myself and I see, okay, that's

an unhelpful thought pattern. Or why are you

acting like that? Why are you? You know, and there

are little triggers and little signs that I can

see, like, okay, you're not doing so well at the

moment, like, let's regroup and get back on even

keel. but that's still quite far off from the

actual point where I pick up a drink or pick up

some drugs. but there are things that get me, you

know, and, and, and life can hit. And I'd say last

year, you know, had a family bereavement and I

broke up with a partner who I thought I was going

to marry. And, and had quite a serious sort of

like falling out with a friend. That was really

painful, you know, and stuff like that. And all of

these things kind of came at the same time. And I

really struggled, I really struggle with my mental

health. And I had to be really straight up with

around me and be like, you know, drinking would

make this easy and I'm not going to do it. But

like, you know, there's, there's still that

thought in the back of my mind, like, oh, maybe

that's a way out. And I, but I've got enough now.

I've got enough information to know, you know, you

play the tape all the way through and actually

like, I don't want what's at the end of that tape.

so, so there are many sort of healthy mechanisms,

but doesn't. I would never describe myself as

recovered. You know, I'm recovering. I'm in

recovery. When Paul talks about the thorn that he

lives with in his side, that through Jesus he is

stronger with that debilitating whatever it is

that's how I see myself. Right. I'm not able to

sit down and have a glass of wine with you, but I

am, through the grace of God, able to move forward

more strongly, more powerfully through him despite

the fact that I have something that causes me

difficulty. And that's okay.

>> Julia: Well, we talked earlier about your friend that you

lost friends when you had, when you were addicted.

Have any of those friends come back?

>> Lauren: No, no. the friends who challenged me on the

behaviour, and gave me space to change. And some

people did take little steps back and oh no, I'm

not coming out tonight and things like that. But

they were still in my life. But in different ways

those relationships have been renewed. But

actually the people who made a conscious decision

to cut me off, they actually haven't. And as part

of the recovery process I made amends. And that

meant that m reaching out and apologising to some

people and some people you don't reach out to

because it may cause them more damage. If

someone's explicitly said I never want to hear

from you again, to reach out to them to apologise,

that's selfish. That's you doing that for you. So

you find other ways to make amends that maybe you

write a letter that you never send, you know, and

so there are a few people I did reach out to to

apologise. Some people said thank you, I really

appreciate that, but didn't want a sort of ongoing

relationship. Some people completely ignored the

message and some people were so open handed. I

love this for you. I'm so pleased that you're

moving forwards and things like that. So it was

different. But actually the way that people

respond is not, cannot affect whether or not I'm

gonna do it, you know, because it's about cleaning

your side of the street and doing what's right for

you. But I'm definitely still sad about, about the

hurt that I caused for somebody to walk away.

You've caused them pain and I don't, I don't wanna

be a person who causes other people pain. so I

just have to keep my distance and pray that they,

that they're doing well and they've got real good

friendship around them even if it can't be me.

>> Julia: And did you learn about yourself in that process?

>> Lauren: Oh yeah, yeah. Because I hadn't done anything

particularly introspective or reflective at all.

but I worked the 12 steps of recovery which is all

about introspection. It's incredibly confronting

very painful demands, absolute honesty. From me,

from anyone. And I just wasn't in the habit of

being honest with anyone, myself or those around

me. So it was very difficult. And you work through

that with a mentor or a sponsor. so I learned a

huge amount about myself through that. And that

was quite. I did that quite quickly. So over the

sort of first year of recovery, I'd say the

journey of learning about myself through Christ

has been far longer, far slower. I never had like

a lightning bolt moment. I never had like a, You

know, you hear these stories, like, I was just in

bed and then I heard these words or I saw this

thing and you're like, wow, that's amazing. That

wasn't me. It wasn't like a, boom. And you're

changed, you know, like. And I. And I said that

sort of salvation prayer that first day in church.

They encouraged me to sort of repent and to accept

Jesus in my life and all of that stuff. And I was

baptised about a year and a half later. So I did,

I did the thing that it was recommended I did, but

I didn't instantly feel different at all. And. And

for me, faith has been taking one small pigeon

step at, a time and then looking back after maybe

three or four years and realising, like, I've

really travelled some distance. So day to day, the

difference has been pretty unremarkable, pretty

hard to distinguish. But over the course of years,

it's like night and day.

>> Julia: That's really refreshing to hear because quite

often when you hear people's stories, it's always

about that, like, what I call boom moments, like,

they have that big change in their life, they hear

God speaking to them and the night is scared.

Yeah. But actually, I think for majority of

people, we do have that experience and we just

take it day by day and then we look back and go,

wow, God was really present in, in my life over

the last.

>> Lauren: It takes more faith because it's not like a,

defining, like, yes, you're getting this right.

It's like I've just gotta keep plugging away,

doing what I hope and believe is right. You know,

listening to wise counsel around me, praying,

reading the Bible and just, you know, pray that

those changes, that my heart changes, my character

changes in really positive ways. And it does, it

always does. But without that, like, boom,

sometimes you can really doubt yourself.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

it made me rethink about the experience of people

getting sober. There is so much in this episode

that we're actually going to rejoin it again next

week and hear more about Lauren's experience. You

can find out more about this and other themes at

thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again for listening.

I hope you'll join me again next time on Things I

Wish I Knew.