Siddo Dwyer: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to The Better Places podcast, where we explore the politics, planning, and people shaping London's built environment. I'm Siddo Dwyer. Joined today by my guest host Rochelle Blakeman. Welcome Rochelle. This episode is all about the rise of co-living, uh, what it is, who it's for, and whether it can help tackle two London's big challenges, the housing crisis and urban loneliness.

We're joined by two brilliant guests, uh, to help us explore it all. Mark Thompson is Planned Director at s with over two decades of experience delivering major housing and regeneration schemes across London. Welcome, mark.

Mark Thomson : Hi, sit. Hello.

Siddo Dwyer: And we've also, uh, got today, uh, Rosie Ashton, who's the design manager at Verve Life.

Uh, an architect with more than twenties experience, shaping co-living and purpose-built rental housing designed to foster connection and well building. Welcome.

Rosie Ashton : Thank you. It's not quite 20 years. It's 15. I'd say rest. 15 and 10 years on, on specifically on build to rent and co-living. [00:01:00] But, uh, yeah, not that old yet.

Siddo Dwyer: Well done. Uh, welcome, uh, Rosie. Thank you. Thank you so much for the, uh, correction. Um, and from design and management to community and policy, we'll be asking can co-living really redefine how London is rent? Live and connect. So let's get into it. And, uh, thank you guys so much for taking the time to come and, and, and join us.

And this is something that, um, is often gonna constant debate in the office, uh, whether it's, uh, Michelle and I or, or across the business. We're constantly trying to rack our brains around if it's not traditional housing and then it's an alternative type, uh, such as this one, I guess. Just to open. Um, and if you guys to give us a bit more sense about, um, who you are and some of your work, uh, without me adding five more years onto your, uh, onto your life.

Um, open question, what is co-living? Wow.

Mark Thomson : Um, and what is it not? Yeah. Good, good, good. Second part. So, so I've, yeah, I've [00:02:00] been advising and, and working with, uh, in the sort of co-living space for probably over a decade, and that's really from its emergence and I think what co-living is, is. An important rental product.

That's part of, I think, the kind of evolving housing market that we have. I think people's housing needs are different to what they have been in the past, and it really is, you know, defined, I guess as purpose built shared living. So it's a. Uh, a sort of combination of having a sort of private room that's got your en suite, but then you've got access to a range of amenities.

Um, and you know, those are supposed to come together to sort of foster a building that's got a community living in it with a range of amenities. Hopefully covered that Rosie.

Rosie Ashton : Yeah, I mean, I'd probably move on to. To the, what is it not? And it, it's not an h hm o it's not shoving people into spaces that they don't want to live in.

It's [00:03:00] very much, as you say, it's there is, it's, there's a market out there for people that want their own private space, um, but also want to be able to meet people. They want the convenience of moving in and out. Whenever they want to. Rather than trying to find a group of people to share a house with and making sure you get on with everyone, it's very much you as an individual moving into that space and then meeting people when you're in there.

And that's why our activities that we do at at Verve Life are events are, are really important. 'cause that's what makes the community, it's those spaces and how you use. Them

Siddo Dwyer: on the, what is it not, of course, we're probably familiar with HMO and maybe reactive residents, but, um, how's the multiple occupancy?

How do we kind of separate the two? Or if this, if this, if co-living is kind of purpose built and the HMO isn't maybe a refurbished building, how do you really distinguish the two?

Mark Thomson : I think you, you, you distinguish it, I think by, by the level of [00:04:00] engagement and, uh, what happens in that building. I think, you know, I always think of co-living buildings and I've been fortunate enough to have taken 'em through planning and now see them occupied and, you know, ve life's, uh, you know, operate a lot of them.

Uh, these buildings are living and breathing. You know, they've got events going on. They've got people who are engaging. There's a wellbeing. A welfare. You know, these. It's not just a transient community who come and go. It's people who build friendships. They might go on to build, to rent or go onto home ownership.

I think HMOs are, you know, are really. You know, they're very fixed. You know, they can be potentially quite isolating because, you know, I, in my past I lived in a patron o above a Chinese takeaway and mm-hmm. You know, there was a bit of mold on the wall and you know, tho that at that point in time, you know, probably over a decade or so ago, I.

That was my housing choice. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's what it is for a lot of people. That's why I did, I think it's really that community and, and I think the sort of welfare and [00:05:00] lifestyle that I think is different.

Rosie Ashton : Yeah. And the professional management, I mean, most HMOs are not professionally managed and therefore that's why they can often sort of be seen as maybe not the best spaces to live in.

Um, whereas within a co-living development, you've got management on site. So everything is is to, or well to order is not the right word, but you know what I mean. It's, it is all you know. And if you have got issues. Your landlord is pretty much there to fix it for you. And it's not that, it's not usually the case in an HMO, so that's often why you can Yeah.

But bad reputation is probably, is probably what they have really because of that, because of that instance.

Siddo Dwyer: It's usually something that's seen as, uh, uh, both actually HMOs or even co-living, but we will stick to co-living, uh, focused around, uh, kinda young professionals or people who have just even moved to the, let's say London, where we, where we are.

Um. And want to build a network around them, they may not necessarily want the full commitment of a flat on their own. Um, how, how has it evolved in that time that you, you, you both have worked on, [00:06:00] uh, kohl of products?

Rosie Ashton : Well, I, I can tell you a couple of facts on that sort of connect connectivity that, that you were just sort of talking about there.

So I know, um, so when we surveyed our. Co-living residence. Um, I think we surveyed 1,600 at the time and about 20% said that they moved into a co-living development because they wanted to make new connections. Like you say, they'd moved to somewhere like London and they wanted to meet new people. Um, but by the sort of end of it, about 80% had said that they had made new connections.

So it's quite interesting that actually, you know, people are moving in there because they want to meet new people, but they actually are meeting new people, more people. Are actually benefit benefiting from meeting other people than, than they initially thought.

Rochelle Blakeman: In terms of that wellbeing point and connections, one of the biggest selling points of co-living that you hear, um, sort of in the media is that tackling urban loneliness.

So in your view, um, it does co-living, [00:07:00] tackle urban loneliness. And what are the benefits there?

Rosie Ashton : I think it plays a part in tackling it. I don't think there is one sort of one solution, but yeah, definitely with, like I said, with the events and meeting people and, um, the one thing I'm always quite conscious of is, um, intimidating spaces.

And I don't, I always try and make sure space, the, the, um, amenity in the spaces and not. Intimidating for people who are on their own. Um, and one thing I, I talked about, um, the other week was just imagine if, like, if we, we did sort of like an, an example of like a pub quiz. Mm-hmm. Now, normally you would go with a group of friends and you'd make a team, but if you're on your own, you're gonna be quite intimidated.

So there, there are things you can do, like give people colors and then they're in that team. So you're actually kind of encouraging. People to get into a team, even if they're on their own. And that can kind of help with that loneliness because you don't feel too intimidated to turn up to something like a, a pub quiz, a team quiz on your own because you know you will be given a team exactly like everyone [00:08:00] else will.

There won't be that sort of sense of the popular kids in are in one team and the rest of us are in another. So just sort of managing that intimidation I think is, is a really important part to sort of avoid the loneliness. Otherwise, yes, you could probably. Kind of go back into your shell. Mm-hmm. Which is, which is what we don't want to encourage in a co-living development.

Mark Thomson : Yeah. The only thing I, I would add is I think in my experience, and it's sort of part of the evolution of co-living is, is you know, we are now into sort of, you know, a third generation, you know, maybe even getting into a fourth generation of co-living in terms of delivered products, delivered schemes in in London, and obviously now into the regions as well.

And I think. What you are offering in the building, how it's designed, I think is, is addressing urban loneliness. Um, as, as Ray said, it's probably not the, the, the, the only solution, but I think it offers one where without co-living, I [00:09:00] think someone's housing choice is gonna be limited. And, and that, you know, just having the choice itself of going into something where, you know, if you get home at.

You know, 2:00 AM because you are a nurse who's done a night shift, you're coming into a space that's got security. You're coming into a space that other people might be similar to you. And I think just having that I think automatically helps. And designing spaces now, you know, we can sort of see things that work really well in practice.

And spaces like lounges or amenity spaces that might be too big because people don't feel comfortable sitting in such a big space. So, as Rosie said, actually designing them so people. Uh, wanna balance their time between being in a private, their private room, but then also they can go into those community spaces and meet people.

Rochelle Blakeman: Yeah. And so how do you go about designing sort of a communal space and like, do you have any good examples of like, good practice in design and, um, bad practice? Like what, what would the ideal. [00:10:00] Let's say, um, community oriented co-living space look like.

Siddo Dwyer: And just to build on that before you jump in, I think it's, it's really quite interesting that this is the one, this is the one kind of housing product that I've seen that really focuses on, um, beyond just, uh, kind of green space.

An open green space. But inside the building, the inside really matters beyond just the kind of four walls that will come back. So to show's point, where's the starting base?

Rosie Ashton : Well, I like to try and concentrate the immunity within one area, and that's not just because it's more efficient. I find it works better for the residents as well because you, you know, you're going into that social space and if your social space is divided, you might decide, one day I'm gonna go to the lounge.

So I go all the. Here to the lounge and then turn left. Oh, there's no one in the lounge, so I've gotta go all the way back down and try the other sort of coworking space that's on the other side of the building. Whereas if you have it all together, you can kind of just come to that general space. You can see who's [00:11:00] in the lounge, you can see who's in the coworking space, you can see who's in the dining room, and you can kind of decide from there which way to go.

And that's why it kind of works better when it's together because it all kind of works and reads together as a space. And yeah, you're not sort of going all the way around. The building, trying to find people, you know, everyone's in that area. So that's how, um, I think a well-designed space works in terms of, in terms of co-living.

Um, but obviously, yeah, really safe as you say. I mean, I made a note about nurses and people who work in airports who have all these really odd hours. And actually, if you locate your, well, this is actually about the location of the whole development. If it is near one of the, a hospital or an airport, you're gonna have people living in that cowork, I'm sorry, in the co-living, uh, development who work.

Um, in those, in those, you know, in the hospital, at the airport doing strange hours and they won't feel alone. Mm-hmm. Because they'll know that, yeah, I, I might come in like you say at two o'clock in the morning, but, you know, so does so and so that lives on the fourth floor. So, um, yeah, that's, um, that's another, um, really important point.

Um. And then I [00:12:00] just feel, um, uh, gyms are really important. That always comes up really high. Mm-hmm. Oh, absolutely. Um, so again, that's that wellbeing and yeah, a lot of people use the gym as a social space as well. Um, and it's, yeah, if you then create classes or, um, you know, or who can do the most, um, miles in the week and sort of, you know, that kind of, um, bringing people together through the gym as well is really important.

Um. And then, yeah, sorry. So I was just sort of talking about safety 'cause I was thinking about the concierge and how, you know, and that space as well is really important that you wanna come in, you wanna feel welcome when you come in. It's really nice to have someone there to say hello. Um, I quite like it when the post and the parcel is.

Something where everyone has to walk past, because then it gives you a reason to stop and talk to other people that are also getting their posts or getting their parcels. Um, and again, it is a really good space to advertise, uh, events that are happening within the area as well. So you, again, you're sort of encouraging people to walk past an area, which then advertises what's happening and then that then increases people [00:13:00] coming to those events and, and getting to know each other.

Siddo Dwyer: I think Mark, that's a, a planning question. Um, in designing or in working with, um, architects and designers to, to create a. Large open immunity space in buildings where, um, especially in London where, um, spaces so not constrained and, and heights are always a big challenge. Um, how much of a challenge is it to, uh, secure, um, investment for schemes like that?

Mark Thomson : Yeah, I think, um. It's an interesting one because I think we've, we've gone on a, a journey and planning where we've, uh, you know, started out, you know, with, with no policy framework, you know, going back to sort of 20, but prior to 2021, we then had a policy come in the, the, the, the current London plan. We've subsequently had some GLA guidance and, and you know, what that amenity space is as a quantum has sort of changed.

Uh, we now have, uh, you know, a, a sort of. [00:14:00] Per resident, effectively threshold, which it gives us some sort of, you know, gives, schemes the ability to sort of benchmark. Um, but it really does come down to actually what's happening inside those spaces. And as you said earlier, unlike any other sort of. Type of housing or, or scheme that's taken through planning the detail of what's in those spaces is really important.

Mm-hmm. Um, and it really matters to, to a, the sort of planning process that we go through. Um, but then on to delivery and operation. So it is getting the right and come back to one of the questions earlier about what, what the, um, you know, what makes good design of sort of these am amenity spaces. I think it, it's also what's happening outside the building.

Its location, you know, if you've got. You know, uh, if you've got an, if you're on a high street and you've got lots of restaurants and lots of cafes, you know, you want to be thinking about how, how you are offering and, you know, if there's public access. How does that relate? I, [00:15:00] I was involved in a scheme which is now operational, where, you know, they've got a church who uses some of the immunity space on, on a Sunday morning, and, you know, a, that is integrating a community within a building, a building into its neighborhood.

Um, but also that's activating that space. It's, you know, it's getting people involved to people in the building and, you know, they also do art, you know, art showings and partnerships, uh, with local charities. And I think that's just as important as sort of thinking about the community within the building as if you can get the good design to also be outward.

Into whether it's somewhere that's, you know, in a regeneration area or somewhere that's already very established, you know, uh, we, we've had, uh, developments where we've looked at, you know, do we put in a big gym or do we just have a really flexible place for classes? Because actually there's a number of various established gyms already in the area that people.

Might be able to go to instead. And so [00:16:00] it's kind of supporting local, you know, the local high streets as well. So I, I think good design of the emergency space has gotta be what happens in the building and then what happens outside as well. Mm-hmm.

Rochelle Blakeman: Yeah. And, and just to add that, 'cause I think there is a misconception that co-living is just, it's just kind of transient in the community and it's just bringing, um, sort of outsiders in who aren't originally from that community.

So. Yeah, that sounds really important as well in helping to tackle that myth almost and integrate them into the community.

Mark Thomson : Yeah. And you, you tend to find, you know, rents in, you know, rents in, in London and other key cities have, you know, have gone up significantly over the last few years. And that's some structural changes in terms of rental supply.

Um, private landlords, um, and actually that. You know, you can look at the lease up rates of most of the co-living schemes in London and they are, you know, one scheme, you know, had had a waiting list. You know, there, there's a real demand for this and I, a lot of it is people living in those [00:17:00] areas because, you know, their, without this, their choices to potentially move further from their place of work, potentially move out of London if, if, if they're in London.

And I think, you know, these are. You know, these aren't just for, you know, attracting people into the areas. As you say, you know, a lot of the people, um, who are in these schemes, you know, some of the research data's shown that, you know, people enjoy staying in them for longer than, you know, what was originally thought might just be a transient population.

You know, I think there's some schemes where operators have told me that they've had. People in there since the doors opened. Mm-hmm. And they're sort of two or three years, um, because they love living there. They love the community, they love the immunities, they love the location. Um, and actually, you know, people, these are people's homes I think sometimes.

In a lot of the discussions that I'm involved in planning, it's sort of felt or treated that these aren't homes. These are just temporary, but they're not, they're [00:18:00] people's homes and, and people love living as part of this type of community.

Siddo Dwyer: Mm-hmm. And I wonder, I've got two questions. Um. Slightly separate, but I think the first is, um, I find it quite interesting that you both touched on, uh, the area itself and what, how that informs the, the internal, uh, again.

Try and walk some of our listeners through that process. Um, once you find a site and you know that this is what you are seeking planning permission for, um, how much research do you do about what's in and around the area? 'cause I think one of the main appeals for me when I've looked at Coal Live and I've seen some in South Mims, which anyone knows, is just outside the M 25 near where I'm, um, but I've also looked in in London as well.

And, and, um, one that draws for me is if I am going to pick up, um. Or find a, a, a flat or a coli space? Um, I would like a gym. I probably like a cinema room somewhere where I could work. Um, [00:19:00] if there are too many I know, um, coworking space in the area, would you limit that amount of space internally or if there are too many gyms as you've mentioned.

So what, what, what, it's a chicken and egg type scenario, but what informs. You, is it the customer? Is it what's outside the building and, and what they have an offer? Well, probably question to you both. Yeah. I'll start with you. Uh, Rosie, to be honest

Rosie Ashton : with you, it depends on the scale of the development. So whether it can be self-sufficient and actually provide a really decent gym for, its me, for its members that will be, you know, fully occupied and, and decent.

And again, with the coworking, if the scale sort of allows you to provide a really decent space, then it is. In some ways I, I think better to have that onsite and have that exclusivity and, um, yeah, for the residents to feel like it's, it's exclusively for them and be properly managed. If it is a smaller scale development, that's when I might start to look at a little bit more about where we can use things on, um, within the, within the rest of the wider, um.

Uh, [00:20:00] area. Uh, yeah, especially if it's something like a gym. So we do always try and put like, exactly like you said, that sort of fitness suite where you can have something on site, which you can do dance classes, yoga, et cetera. And then, um, you know, if it's at a smaller scale and then look at maybe links with gym memberships.

Um, in terms of coworking, um, we wouldn't. Normally I have, well, I haven't worked on one where we've suggested that the residents go use a separate coworking space. I think having, having something on site is really useful for that work from home. I think we at least sort of, I can't remember the exact figures, but I think definitely at least 60% of our residents work from home at some point.

And it, you know, it's, I think it's about 30% that work, um, three to four days from home. Mm-hmm. So, you know, it is something that's really important to have on site.

Mark Thomson : Yeah, and I, I think it, it's an interesting question because I think there's, they're the sort of core [00:21:00] amenities that go into co-living. And you know, I think in that process of sort of, you, you know, we've got a site and we're working with as part of the design team and operational team, and we are thinking, right, okay, how, how does that fit together and how does that work and what's happening in the local area?

It, it can really vary in terms of, um, I'd say, you know, what's around it, what the scale of it is, you know, if you're talking about something which is, you know, three, 400 units, you know, that's gonna have it, its own needs. Mm-hmm. Um, where something perhaps on a slightly smaller scale, you might need to be a bit more specific.

Um, but certainly I think, you know, with these buildings being. Managed and, you know, uh, they've got a life of their own. There's, there's a lot of flexibility in that and I think that that's what I think sometimes the planning system struggles with flexibility and actually, uh, being able to bring something forward to go, well, actually.

If that doesn't happen, well the space will be utilized for this use and, [00:22:00] and a lot of co-living schemes that certainly have been operational for a couple of years now. I know we're going through that process where people go, actually, you know, this is important floor space. You know, this is part what we're offering to residents, but it doesn't work.

So should it be a podcast studio? Should it be a Peloton room? And that's just trying to. Keep up with the changing needs of, of what renters and what people want.

Rosie Ashton : Yeah, exactly. So, you know, if it's a smaller scale, it could be a cowork space in the day, but the residents lounge in the evening. So you can kind of provide those two things.

But within one, one area. Yeah. Yeah. No, we are seeing, yeah, a lot of people kind of, um, so actually we don't. Recommend cinema rooms themselves anymore. I've heard we call them multi, but we call them multimedia rooms because what we have noticed is our residents are using existing cinema rooms, but for music or for gaming.

So actually being able to use that space for, for different things rather than just strictly cinema rooms. So yeah, definitely agree with you there, mark.

Siddo Dwyer: Yeah. One thing that's been at the tip of my tongue is affordability. Uh, not least 'cause we were talking so much about, uh, am and what's, [00:23:00] what's accessible, um, on site, but also in and around it.

Um, how affordable are some of these products? Um, and and how in reach are they for, for a lot of people who are either moving into the era or perhaps or wanting to find a, um, community, but near where they live.

Mark Thomson : Um, yeah, good question. Um, the. Uh, uh, what we typically tend to find is, and obviously it's, it's very location specific, but you're typically finding that there is an affordability against your typical sort of private rented sector built to rent products where obviously, you know, typically in the private rented sector, you'd be paying for your rent council, tax, gas, electricity, wifi, you know, water, all that goes on top.

Um, but with co-living, you typically get an all inclusive rent. Mm-hmm. And opposed to a sort of typical [00:24:00] tenancy of 12 months, you'd be signing one with, which is a minimum of three months. So, a, it's got the flexibility, which is, I know that doesn't answer your question about affordability, but I think flexibility is an important, important in terms of the housing market and what I think Londoners need.

And then. Uh, so you are typically talking about a kind of 10 percent-ish discount, um, against those. Once again, there are gonna be sites and schemes where that discount is gonna be greater. Um, there's some that might be a little bit below that, but typically, you know, this is a product which has got an affordability element to it.

I think there's definitely an opportunity in London to be looking at an ability for. Discounts market rents as an more of an affordable product. Um, specifically for things like key workers. And I know the mayor's obviously, uh, you know, consulted on and, and has got a key worker tenure and I just, you know, those intermediate [00:25:00] rents, you know, I know we all appreciate that affordable housing is important in London.

I think co-living can, can be part of that conversation. Certainly agree. It should be part of that conversation because. Key workers are the heart of London and keeping London going. And I think having a discounted market rent within a product like this, which offers the wellbeing and security. I think the combination of that, to me, there's a logical answer here, which is that DMR discounted market rents for, uh, co-living is something which, which could.

I think be really important for London's feature.

Siddo Dwyer: Thank you for that, mark. I wonder, um, Rosie, how exactly have the studios changed over time to, to meet some of those challenges?

Rosie Ashton : Um, yeah, so the studios have changed quite a bit because a lot lot to do with fire regulations actually. So originally, um, we have our kitchen unit.

As you kind of walk in, you might have your en suite on the left and your kitchen unit on the right, and then you kind of have your bed. Bedroom living area. But now, um, because the new regulations, the kitchen unit and the hub [00:26:00] basically, um, is now further back towards the window,

Siddo Dwyer: which I have noticed. Yes.

Because I have been looking really lately and I did think to myself it seems different. Yes.

Rosie Ashton : Yes. So, and originally, I think when we first had to do it, it was a bit of a challenge because it kind of flipped everything. Kind of the other way round. And we were like, hang on a minute, we need to have the kitchen over there.

And then, so where, where does the bed go and where does the wardrobe go? But actually it's kind of led to this kind of new layout, which, which has, um, the sort of bathroom area and the entrance. And then, um, you might have a study area there as well. Um, and then you kind of have your sleeping area. Then again with the kitchen at the back, that's kind of led to this almost kind of living zone.

So you might have your kitchen and your lounge there. So it's almost kind of developed into three separate zones rather than one space, which it sort of was before. So that's how it's kind of developed a bit more. And that's kind of come from the building regs. Um, but because we've got that, we're also leaning to slightly larger studios as well.

So, um, I think some of the sort of second generation ones are [00:27:00] kind of around 15, 16 square meters. Um. And obviously the new regulations are saying 18 square meters, um, at least. But actually we're, we're seeing at least 21 square meters for it to have that really nice living space within that studio. So it is becoming a little bit more sophisticated.

It is nudging slightly larger. Um, just because yeah, like you say, these are people's homes. They're not just rooms, they are people's homes. And I feel like 21 square meters is, is kind of just what you need to get your home within that space.

Rochelle Blakeman: Yeah. And in terms of affordability with that, um, 'cause often we think of.

Co-living as being like a single person occupant. But I know like a lot of, when you live in London, um, a lot of my friends you'll sort of talk about sharing, like not only just to be with friends, but because it makes, um, the rent cheaper. So do you think there's the potential to incorporate that into co-living?

Do you think it's suitable, for example, for [00:28:00] couples to share the rent cost or for say, like a group of friends too? Uh, rent a few rooms that are close to each other, just would that to, to lower costs or is that not really something the co-living would accommodate?

Rosie Ashton : Well, on the couples side, I think we have about five or 6% dual occupancy in our co-living, um, developments in at, for life at the moment.

And they would, they're likely to be the, the larger ones which are sort of lean more towards kind of 28 square meters, um, in terms of being able to live with your friends. I think it, it's, it's individual tendencies, so I don't think that would, would affect affordability for, for groups of people. But yeah, for couples, at the moment we're seeing, um, about five or 6% dual occupancy.

Mark Thomson : Uh, I think there's, I think as part of the evolution of, uh, co-living, I think they're. I, I walked around [00:29:00] a, a scheme outside of London recently, which has got some cluster units, so where you've got four, uh, co-living rooms, you know, each of those has a private en suite. Um, but it's got a, it's got a sort of kitchenette, which is just shared between those.

Obviously those residents still have the benefit of lounges and all the, all the other immunity spaces. It was only a portion of, of, of the scheme. So it, you know, it wasn't all clusters within the entire Coli development. Um, I know that that's happening out outside of London and there's quite a few planning permissions or schemes where that's, that exists, whether, and that obviously appeals to.

Your, your, your sharers or friends, whether that will come into, into London. I, I think, you know, there's, you know, there's, there's a sort of clarity of, you know, what the product is. And I, I wonder whether that might stray us a bit more into kind of the built friend space.

Rosie Ashton : Well, I was about to say that, that sounds like an h Hm.

O to me. 'cause there are hm. O guidelines and it is, it's, [00:30:00] it's, yeah. Rooms, en suites, no kitchens or anything within those rooms. And then a shared kind of kitchen diner. So I think for co-living. Yeah, we would certainly want to sort of stay away from that sort of HMO, but yeah, otherwise, like you say, you know, there is still also build to rent, um, where you can rent apartments and share that and have that be with your friends that way.

And you still have, it's, it's the same sort of management and the same sort of, um. You know, benefits that you get, um, with co-living. Um, but one of the, one of the benefits with co-living, which you touched on, which was all the bills included that in terms of, it's not necessarily affordability, but it's certainly cost, um, assurance, you know, what, what your bills are every month.

You know, you're not gonna get a really big, um, electricity bill in winter or something like that. So that helps with people being able to plan their finances, um, knowing exactly how much money's coming out every month.

Siddo Dwyer: Mm. And we know that London is struggling to build more traditional forms of housing for myriad of different reasons, not these [00:31:00] cost of borrowing and, and the construction costs.

But I wonder, um, question for you both. Um, how do you feel co-living in, um, short to medium term we add. Or how important, um, will it be to the mix of London's housing supply, not least to bring the cost of homes down, but also leaving pressure on more traditional forms of housing where we just touched on HMOs becoming a, a bit of a sticking point in some communities.

Mark Thomson : Yeah, I think, um, I think it's got a crucial role. I think it, there has to be choice and I think as we sit, as we've touched on. Whether that be affordability, whether it be flexibility, whether it be assurance on costs, whether it be your lifestyle choice. I think there needs to be a space where, and, and, and co-living counts towards housing delivery.

From a planning perspective, um, you know, London is facing a significant challenge in terms of housing targets and, and the homes needed and I [00:32:00] think, you know, home ownership. Uh, the aspirations of home ownership are changing, and I think, you know, we, we've gotta, we've got to accept that. And I think we, we need to have the choice for, for people to go, well, actually, that suits me.

And, and co-living isn't the answer for everyone. And I think, I've been quite a few discussions with local authority planners where we've said, well, this. We know that this isn't going to meet all of your housing needs, but it meets a very, a, a broad brush of people who want flexibility and, um, therefore it's gotta play a part.

Rosie Ashton : Yeah, I agree. I mean, I, I made a note earlier about how it's, you know, it's, it's for anyone at different stages of their lives where renting the studio space as part of the wider community is, is what they're looking for. So, yeah, it's not for everyone, but it is for some people at certain stages of their life, it's exactly what they want really.

Rochelle Blakeman: In terms of, uh, local partnerships with the community, uh, what benefits does co-living bring in that sense?

Rosie Ashton : Well, I mean, we [00:33:00] certainly, um, partner with sort of local restaurants where we can, we bring, uh, in the chef, um, for an evening. Oh, do really? Yes, yes, yes. So we might, so do sort of all other guest

Siddo Dwyer: sessions sign up?

Rosie Ashton : Well, that this is why the, the, the good sort of master chef style kitchens. Everyone calls it the, you know, the, the larger, basically the larger. Um, commercial size kitchens, um, rather than the sort of smaller dotted around kitchens that are shared, they work really well. 'cause then you can bring in your, you know, people from the, the wider sort of, um, restaurant f and b community to come in and, and, uh, do, do sort of evening sessions with our residents.

So that's one way that, that we can link up, um, uh, with a wider community. Um, and another way we always try and maybe sort of in. You know, try and get some sort of discounts for residents at certain things, certain cafes or certain shops. And then again, that sort of encourages the residents to use those facilities that are local.

Um, I dunno if there's, from a planning perspective, there's other ways of doing it.

Mark Thomson : Yeah, I think, [00:34:00] I think there's, there's, um, it, it's, it's a really rewarding, and I think it's a great part of the co-living offering through planning is. These buildings are managed so they, they, they're in, they can integrate with the community.

You know, if you take a sort of typical flat, you know, flatter development, uh, which has got its lobby, you know, you, you are sort of limited 'cause everyone owns their own flat and mm-hmm. It's a, it is a, just a different way of, of doing it. I think with, with co-living you can. Partner either with local community groups to offer them space, as I mentioned earlier, you know, whether it be a church on a Sunday or you know, local artists come and show their work.

And it, you know, I know, you know, there's been schemes that have had done sort of speed networking because there's lots of entrepreneurs living in the building. So you're trying to sort of empower whilst you're connecting everybody within a community, you're also, you know, creating, um, opportunities for them as well.

And I think in planning, I think that. We should [00:35:00] be trying to look for those opportunities to integrate within the community, but also create partnerships that, you know, are flexible and allow people to say, well actually, if I live in that building, not only am I getting this, but I'm also getting access to, to that.

So, um, yeah, it's really got, um, the, the potential I think is unlimited in terms of how co-living can integrate with the community, but also. Offer benefit to the residents and the local community.

Rochelle Blakeman: Yeah, and it just shows how professionalized the management of co-living is. Now. It's not, um, just sort of a concierge service that you might get in a.

Built to rent. It's a whole plethora of activities and wellbeing for residents and the wider community as well.

Siddo Dwyer: I know that some operators, not at least, 'cause I've, uh, this year stayed in a collision space for, in a kind of weekend getaway, which it was, it was quite an experience, I have to say from a management perspective and actually planning perspective, how.[00:36:00]

Difficult can that, is that or am I being too negative? There? Is that part of the co offer that you can have, um, temporary guests as well as, uh, longer term stays?

Rosie Ashton : I mean, we do, and I think it also benefits residents if they have somebody. Um, visiting, uh, FA family or friends to be able to say, well actually we've got these.

You can book and stay in the same place as me for a couple of nights. I think is a really good thing for the residents as well. Um, it is something we do, we do generally see, see that? Yes. Um, it's not a huge amount though. I think it's only sort of a few units. Um, so it doesn't normally affect the community.

'cause I think that would be the one thing that you wouldn't want is that there were so many that it ends up. Does feeling like a hotel, 'cause it is about people meeting each other. But I think having a few, which can again, be used by the residents friends is really useful. But I dunno how it affects it from a planning perspective.

Is this,

Mark Thomson : is this the future? Well, I think, uh, you know, [00:37:00] there's, um, I, similar to you, I've, I've stayed in a, a building in Europe, uh, on a, on a short break where it. And sort of being, being a planner, I was nosy as to what, what I was staying in. Uh, and uh, it was sort of a hybrid of co-living, student accommodation and a hotel all in one building.

Siddo Dwyer: It was mind, it was mind blowing for

Mark Thomson : you. And it was mind blowing that I was in the space and I thought, wow, there's probably people who are living here day to day. There's probably, there's me who's on my little holiday, and then there's someone who's who's, you know, studying day to day. But I thought it was brilliant that you just had this complete mashup of different people from different walks of life all staying in a space that was meeting their needs.

Opposed to rigidly saying, well, you've gotta design a building, which is this use this use or that use. Um, I say that, or acknowledging that the UK planning system has, has got some, you know, boundaries that we have to stick to, rigidity that we still need to [00:38:00] work on. Yeah. But it does ultimately, you know, I think having, having those kind of minimum three months.

Uh, tendencies is, which is required for co-living. I think that does put some sort of boundaries on, you know, how transient the, the population is in the building. Um, but I'm aware that there are some schemes in London, which are, which are sort of, uh, you know, blurring the lines between that sort of co-living, hotel apart hotel.

Um, and, you know, I think it, it, I think once again, it's just, it's part of what's on offer.

Speaker 5: I just wanna say it wasn't the student hotel in Amsterdam, was it? Or No comment. Because I've stayed there.

Mark Thomson : So, um, funny enough actually was,

Speaker 5: I knew as soon as you described it on my list,

Siddo Dwyer: I was looking for November guess away.

So you've, uh, we're not sponsored by. Got a small world. Yeah. Yeah. Good guess. Yeah. That's a pretty good guess. Uh, not, not, not planned either say. But, um, to wrap up, this has been actually really, uh, [00:39:00] fascinating discussion and, uh, really glad that, um, we're showing our team, um, thought to, to make this happen because it's, um, especially for us that the element around, um, loneliness is, is really important, even though this is part of the solution, uh, isn't necessarily the solution in the same way, um, building co-living properties and, um.

Attacking the housing crisis, uh, can all play part to, to do that. Um, to wrap up and actually, uh, mark you, you prompted this. Um, where would you both like to see policy or perhaps the market, um, in, in the next five to 10 years? Uh, what, what are, what are your aspirations for, um, the co-living space? I'll start with you, Rosie.

Rosie Ashton : Um, so I don't like anything too prescriptive. I do think. At the moment, the G-L-L-G-L-A guidance. Um, once you go over a certain scale, you just end up with loads and loads of amenity and you end up repeating what that am amenity is. I'm also [00:40:00] working on a lot of developments who don't want to make their amenity larger than a hundred square meters because then as in per.

You know, per space, um, because then they have to bring in, um, commercial sprinklers. So if I'm working on a large development and I need to provide 600, uh, square meters, I'm providing six times 100 square meter. Immunity spaces, which I don't, you know, so I, I think that there just needs to be a bit of flexibility on the sort of larger scale in terms of you need to provide X amount of immunity.

And I think that conversation that we had about the immunity being used for different things during different times of the day, I think there needs to, for me, I would rather have. A conversation on what that immunity is and how it works, rather than just saying, we're providing this amount of immunity and it ticks, it ticks the GLA guidance box.

So for me, it would be something slightly less prescriptive and a little bit more of a conversation.

Mark Thomson : I would say there's probably two, uh, two things that I would hope for. [00:41:00] The first is what I mentioned earlier, which is I think discounted market rents and, and how, how co-living can contribute towards affordability and affordable housing in London.

Um, and sort of linked to Rosie's point, I think the Glas guidance is, is very much being looked at from various parts of the uk. Um, and I think there's some local authorities who, who are doing something really interesting with discounts, market rents and, and affordability outside of London. And I think we should be learning lessons from all over and not just focusing on, on one bit of policy and guidance.

Um. And, uh, the second, uh, one is I, I think it's an aspiration that, uh, is maybe less policy, but an aspiration that I think the doubt and misconceptions around the quality of these spaces. [00:42:00] Absolutely. Um. Shifts and we shift to accept, you know, almost an acceptance and a support that this is, these are really great homes for people in London and that it's part of the housing ecosystem in London.

Opposed to they're still being despite, you know, co-living now having been around for probably over a decade. Um, the misconception going that actually these are. These are great buildings, these are great developments, these are great homes. And I think just people accepting that it's, it's, it is needed.

Um, that would be a great shift because, uh, you still, you're still having those conversations where people are doubting whether it's going to work, doubting whether people want it, despite actually we now have a reasonable set of data and we're we're getting results where this is, this is what PE a lot of people want and need.

Thank you for that,

Siddo Dwyer: uh, mark. And that's certainly great reflection for us. But that's all for this episode of [00:43:00] The Better Places podcast. A big thank you to our guests, uh, Mark Thompson and Rosie Ashton. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for having me. Uh, and to my co-host, uh, Rochelle Ble.

Rochelle Blakeman: Thank you,

Siddo Dwyer: and if you've enjoyed the discussion, make sure that you follow, um, best of places wherever you get your podcast. And join us in the conversation on LinkedIn. Uh, I'm du Dwier. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time as we explore how London can build a better, fairer, and more connected place.