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Page 94: the Private Eye Podcast.

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Andy: Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name's Andrew

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Hunter Murray, and I'm here
in the Eye's studio with

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Helen Lewis, Adam
MacQueen and Saba Salman.

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We are here to discuss the news
of the last couple of weeks.

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And because it's Christmas party season,
we're having a Christmas party special.

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I haven't told you all this, but we're
gonna be talking about Your Party.

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We're gonna be talking about
the Reform party, right?

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And later on we're gonna be
talking about various corporate

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parties who are buying each other.

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Adam: So I thought for a horrible moment
it was gonna be like a normal Christmas

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party where everyone was gonna fall out
with each other and, oh, no, hang on.

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That is what it isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Andy: Saba welcome to Page 94.

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This is your first time on the show
and you are, the new Tim aMinoguenal.

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I'm, it seems what a billing anyone would

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see any difference at all?

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you are rotten boroughs.

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Saba: I am rotten boroughs, me whole
host of people behind the scenes Yeah.

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cannot who we cannot name

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Andy: I saw something really exciting
recently because I know you do

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a little Reform roundup section.

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Given that Reform have just taken so
many, councils across the country in

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the, local elections, I saw a really
exciting headline saying they've

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managed to cut 331 million pounds
of expenditure in total so far.

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terrific

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news.

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How have they done it?

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Saba: I think the answer is
rhetoric over reality, Okay.

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yes, Reform.

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Reform has control of
10 local authorities.

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they have been shedding
counselors left, and center.

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or Right.

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we say, since they started and they've
lost about 40 and rotten boroughs,

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has on behalf of the nation been
keeping an eye on how many and why,

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the war on waste that you mentioned?

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So there's 331 million pound, saving
efficiency, that is their big mantra

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nationally and obviously local government,
they've taken that upon themselves

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to prove to Nigel that it can be done

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.
When you actually drill
down, this is complete guff.

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Basically, to put it in technical terms.

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Thank you.

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in the current issue, we, mention
Kent and Kent is fascinating

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because it's the flagship borough.

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the person in

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charge is Lyndon Kem Caron, who's a very
firm leader and she's very big on taking

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Nigel's word to, the absolute Maximum.

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So she's been doing her war
on ways and she's claiming,

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she's saving tens of millions.

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they've cut councilor's allowances,
by about 5%, which is great.

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Sounds, sounds brilliant, very generous.

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but actually what they've done is
they've used that money and they've

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put it into the community fund,
which again is fabulous 'cause

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it's more money for local people.

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So what's the commu-

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What is the community fund?

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The, community fund is all local
authorities have a fund, which counselors

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can use to give money to good causes.

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So local projects, kids,
animals, nice warm fluffy things.

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Okay.

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Important things.

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but the point here is that by
cutting council's allowances,

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which is a good thing,

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that could be an efficiency.

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It's not because actually that
money's being siphoned off into this.

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Community fund.

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So it's not a saving,

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I presume it's because they
can't underspend that money.

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Is that it?

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As in they have to put it
somewhere rather than They do.

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local authorities, as any
organization, you have

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a certain amount of money and you
have to spend it within the year.

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So I

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think as you get towards the
end of the financial year,

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mm-hmm.

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you are

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left with these pots of cash.

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I'm not sure if that's the case in this

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Kent

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example.

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I think it's more

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the case that it makes a great headline.

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Adam: Can I just ask a really
basic question that where

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does the money come from?

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Is it all from council tax?

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Is there still some money that
comes from central government?

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to local government?

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There is money that

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comes from central government, although
successive governments have cut that.

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so by and large, yes,
it's from, council tax.

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Helen: Did Reform experience the thing
which I think Adam, you predicted when

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they got all those councils, which is
that they went in going, it's terrible,

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it's all being spent on putting
the trans flag above the town hall.

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And then they discovered, oh
no, all the money's going on.

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Adult social care.

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Yes, I think that's absolutely right.

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With Reform, they've come in guns blazing.

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it's political earthquake, it's

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gonna be fabulous.

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We're gonna do all this, we're
gonna cut this, we're gonna, get

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rid of EDR 'cause it's so expensive.

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and, we're going to, stop

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spending on special educational needs.

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We're gonna stop, take money from adult.

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Adult social care doesn't
quite work like that

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because local

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authorities have, a duty
to provide certain things

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and do

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certain things, Now,

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can I

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check There's

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been an accusation

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leveled against the BBC, that
reformer targeting its counselors in

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particular by reporting

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on all of the counselors who are

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sacked

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or resign

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or, defect perhaps.

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now are you doing the

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same

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thing?

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they've said, the,

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BB reporting on 90% of

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reform

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counselors who leave in some way
or another, and actually only

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about 15% of, labor or conservative
counselors doing the same.

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I

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think there is a balance between a focus

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on,  this particular group
of individuals because

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they have stormed in

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and they

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are presenting some

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wild

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and wacky ideas,

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and you have to hold into account.

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In a balanced way.

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We can't

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do the same thing with all the
other parties simply because

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we actually do that in the

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rest of the Borough's page.

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Isn't it also the fact that because
reform have only got a handful of mps and

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have never formed a government in any of
their various farages iterations, this

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has been the first real chance to see
what the party makeup is like and also

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how the they handle, actual government
responsibility in the same way that the,

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green control cancel and brighten for a
long time got, not an excessive amount of

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scrutiny, but a higher level of scrutiny
because this was a chance to see people,

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for people to see what the greens would
be like in government, which they weren't

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gonna be able to do at the national level.

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So if reform are currently top of the
polls, which they have been on and

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off for months now, Nigel Farage is
auditioning to be the next Prime Minister,

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and this is our chance
to see what are his grand

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Adam: troops

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Yeah.

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It's quite Interesting.

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I'm pre the last election the complaint
was constantly, oh, reform, don't

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get the coverage they ought to.

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And actually

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there's an awful lot of
support out for them.

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But,

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Helen: I think there's definitely
something about, particularly

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Saba: with, councils like,

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Kent being the flagship one, that
this is, the party of, government

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potentially.

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so there you have it if this is
what they're doing on a local level

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with

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infighting,

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conduct

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problems,

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the, leader

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effectively

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firing,

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a bunch of her councilors that

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was Lyndon Kem,

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Andy: car.

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Yes.

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Saba: Kent.

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they had 57 counselors elected.

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there's now only

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48 left,

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so nine have gone.

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So my highly analytical

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maths

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Adam: here tells me that if

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you use that

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Saba: rate,

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they'd all be gone in

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about three years,

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Helen: But that has always
been the problem with Nigel

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Farage's parties, right?

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That they are always
the Nigel Farage show.

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And when PP had a load of meps,
the turnover rate among them was

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extraordinarily high, far higher than it
was for the, what were then the mainstream

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parties of labor and Conservatives

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Andy: But he gains them as well.

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he's operating a one in one out

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Helen: He's like a

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nightclub bouncer.

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Yes.

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And

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it's

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operating a situation where there
is a real cult of leadership there.

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which the

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Kent leader a copycat example of that.

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She's, she has this sort of
authority, she has the authority,

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if anyone remembers Jackie

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Weaver from of course,

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Adam: years ago.

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She definitely

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Helen: has the authority.

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She wants the authority

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Saba: and

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if she does not

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get that authority.

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She boots you out.

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that is

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where some of those counselors,
some of the reasons that they've

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left, so those nine that I mentioned
the majority have been sacked,

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but others

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have

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been,

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suspended.

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and there's a few that have
left of their own volition.

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and some of those have
done so because they don't.

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Agree

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with that, sort of leadership cult.

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Andy: I was gonna ask if you
have other favorite councils

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or other especially interesting

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Helen: that

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have cropped

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up

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Adam: your first

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several

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weeks.

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Doesn't everyone have a
favorite local authority?

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Helen: No, it's weird.

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I dunno.

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no, Richard Brooks doesn't.

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Richard Brooks hast side.

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Like we,

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we can, I think the

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thing with

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Rotten, are

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Andy: talking about reform now

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No, I'm in general.

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So in general, I think

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Saba: really difficult to pick a,
favorite or, worse because, rotten

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boroughs runs a whole range of cozy

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cronyism, bad conduct.

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Huge amounts of money

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being spent.

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I think one of my recent

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favorites was over

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in Northern

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Ireland,

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Adam: so this

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Saba: Byrne and

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Castle Ray, it's, a
borough northern Ireland.

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And, this is a typical,

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example of,

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bad conduct.

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So this is a case where a counselor called
Gary Hines, was in a council meeting

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and he wanted

266
00:08:11,423 --> 00:08:11,663
to talk

267
00:08:11,663 --> 00:08:11,873
about

268
00:08:11,873 --> 00:08:12,323
a housing

269
00:08:12,323 --> 00:08:12,773
issue.

270
00:08:13,373 --> 00:08:13,673
And the

271
00:08:13,673 --> 00:08:18,018
chief exec guy called David
Burns, said, no, could you wait?

272
00:08:18,588 --> 00:08:19,278
Gary Hines was

273
00:08:19,278 --> 00:08:19,848
not happy.

274
00:08:20,178 --> 00:08:20,388
They

275
00:08:20,388 --> 00:08:20,568
had a

276
00:08:20,568 --> 00:08:20,688
bit

277
00:08:20,688 --> 00:08:20,778
of

278
00:08:20,778 --> 00:08:21,678
a row, bit of a

279
00:08:21,888 --> 00:08:22,428
verbal,

280
00:08:23,178 --> 00:08:25,788
disagreement, which ended
with Gary Hines, the

281
00:08:25,788 --> 00:08:29,448
counselor spinning the chair
of the chief executive.

282
00:08:30,108 --> 00:08:31,668
In a bit of a pissy fit.

283
00:08:31,981 --> 00:08:32,701
that would be bad

284
00:08:32,701 --> 00:08:33,031
Andy: enough.

285
00:08:33,181 --> 00:08:33,301
But

286
00:08:33,301 --> 00:08:33,871
then on top

287
00:08:33,871 --> 00:08:34,441
of that,

288
00:08:34,651 --> 00:08:34,831
It

289
00:08:34,831 --> 00:08:37,621
got reported to the local
government ombudsman over there,

290
00:08:37,621 --> 00:08:39,001
the public sector ombudsman, Okay.

291
00:08:39,331 --> 00:08:42,331
rightly But that cost money and also got,

292
00:08:42,841 --> 00:08:43,801
reported to naca.

293
00:08:43,801 --> 00:08:43,891
So

294
00:08:43,891 --> 00:08:44,671
the police

295
00:08:45,151 --> 00:08:45,331
Saba: were

296
00:08:45,331 --> 00:08:46,201
investigating

297
00:08:46,201 --> 00:08:46,861
Andy: this is council

298
00:08:46,861 --> 00:08:47,371
taxpayer's

299
00:08:47,386 --> 00:08:47,776
Adam: money.

300
00:08:47,781 --> 00:08:49,221
Someone being spun on a chair, someone

301
00:08:49,221 --> 00:08:50,021
being spun on a chair.

302
00:08:50,176 --> 00:08:50,806
Now, And I put

303
00:08:50,806 --> 00:08:51,436
it to you.

304
00:08:51,466 --> 00:08:52,126
Can you imagine if

305
00:08:52,126 --> 00:08:53,116
that happened in our office?

306
00:08:53,116 --> 00:08:53,956
So there's dissent.

307
00:08:53,956 --> 00:08:54,916
We're in the editorial

308
00:08:54,916 --> 00:08:55,756
conference meeting.

309
00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:55,846
Sure.

310
00:08:55,846 --> 00:08:56,236
Our chairs

311
00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:56,386
would

312
00:08:56,386 --> 00:08:56,596
fall

313
00:08:56,596 --> 00:08:56,926
apart.

314
00:08:56,926 --> 00:08:58,421
I was gonna say, they'd just go off.

315
00:08:58,451 --> 00:08:59,361
Helen: we've avoided that problem.

316
00:08:59,441 --> 00:09:00,301
Adam: The Chairs would fall

317
00:09:00,321 --> 00:09:00,826
Helen: apart, but it's

318
00:09:00,826 --> 00:09:02,056
just not what you do.

319
00:09:02,686 --> 00:09:05,833
And, I think that is the serious point
and why I love Ron Burrows because

320
00:09:05,926 --> 00:09:08,746
Saba: underneath all of these
allegedly silly stories,

321
00:09:08,746 --> 00:09:10,846
actually, there's a serious
point to be made, which is

322
00:09:10,846 --> 00:09:12,736
that these are elected members.

323
00:09:13,265 --> 00:09:15,275
public monies, public sector money.

324
00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:15,680
Andy: Yeah.

325
00:09:16,175 --> 00:09:17,195
Saba: that's being wasted.

326
00:09:17,195 --> 00:09:17,465
And these

327
00:09:17,465 --> 00:09:18,725
are people who are

328
00:09:19,445 --> 00:09:20,405
held to account

329
00:09:20,465 --> 00:09:22,145
except they behave like

330
00:09:22,203 --> 00:09:22,430
Andy: this.

331
00:09:22,430 --> 00:09:22,640
Can I

332
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,475
ask you how about Yes.

333
00:09:23,502 --> 00:09:25,032
Councilors themselves

334
00:09:25,032 --> 00:09:25,152
are

335
00:09:25,152 --> 00:09:27,012
not paid tremendously well.

336
00:09:27,342 --> 00:09:28,272
You do see,

337
00:09:28,992 --> 00:09:29,772
officers and

338
00:09:29,772 --> 00:09:30,372
executives

339
00:09:30,372 --> 00:09:31,002
at councils

340
00:09:31,002 --> 00:09:31,632
receiving,

341
00:09:32,322 --> 00:09:33,402
substantial

342
00:09:33,732 --> 00:09:35,112
payments and, payouts, and

343
00:09:35,382 --> 00:09:35,652
that's

344
00:09:35,652 --> 00:09:36,282
all covered in

345
00:09:36,282 --> 00:09:37,062
rotten borough's loads.

346
00:09:37,564 --> 00:09:38,134
why

347
00:09:38,134 --> 00:09:38,224
do

348
00:09:38,224 --> 00:09:38,584
councilors

349
00:09:38,584 --> 00:09:38,944
matter

350
00:09:39,184 --> 00:09:39,304
if

351
00:09:39,304 --> 00:09:42,274
one, if the, direction of party ownership

352
00:09:42,304 --> 00:09:42,874
or if the

353
00:09:42,874 --> 00:09:45,604
overall party ownership changes
or if it's in no overall control,

354
00:09:45,844 --> 00:09:46,534
what difference does

355
00:09:46,534 --> 00:09:49,684
that make to me as a resident?

356
00:09:49,984 --> 00:09:50,134
my

357
00:09:50,134 --> 00:09:50,344
bins

358
00:09:50,344 --> 00:09:50,524
are still

359
00:09:50,524 --> 00:09:50,764
gonna be

360
00:09:50,764 --> 00:09:52,199
collected, not live from

361
00:09:52,199 --> 00:09:52,639
Birmingham.

362
00:09:52,789 --> 00:09:53,079
Andy.

363
00:09:53,079 --> 00:09:53,519
Good Point

364
00:09:53,599 --> 00:09:53,659
Saba: You

365
00:09:53,859 --> 00:09:54,479
Andy: Having any

366
00:09:54,599 --> 00:09:55,399
bins collected there.

367
00:09:55,714 --> 00:09:56,494
But is that to

368
00:09:56,494 --> 00:09:56,584
do

369
00:09:56,584 --> 00:09:57,034
with the makeup of

370
00:09:57,034 --> 00:09:57,094
the

371
00:09:57,094 --> 00:09:57,574
council or

372
00:09:57,574 --> 00:09:57,874
is it,

373
00:09:57,994 --> 00:09:58,264
No.

374
00:09:58,684 --> 00:09:58,864
so

375
00:09:58,864 --> 00:10:00,004
why do councils matter?

376
00:10:00,004 --> 00:10:00,244
Yeah.

377
00:10:01,167 --> 00:10:04,962
Saba: in a democracy, you need
people based in communities

378
00:10:04,962 --> 00:10:06,252
who know their neighborhoods,

379
00:10:06,547 --> 00:10:08,302
and who are made up of

380
00:10:08,362 --> 00:10:09,982
lots of different political parties.

381
00:10:09,982 --> 00:10:11,842
So you have that,

382
00:10:11,842 --> 00:10:13,372
range of representation.

383
00:10:13,582 --> 00:10:13,762
and

384
00:10:13,762 --> 00:10:16,312
their function is completely different

385
00:10:16,342 --> 00:10:16,672
to the

386
00:10:16,672 --> 00:10:18,592
offices, many of whom are on

387
00:10:18,592 --> 00:10:20,602
absolutely massive fat cat salaries.

388
00:10:21,841 --> 00:10:25,381
the, people that we write about who are
on their salaries, they are entitled

389
00:10:25,381 --> 00:10:28,291
to that money because the rules
dictate they can earn that amount

390
00:10:28,291 --> 00:10:28,741
of money.

391
00:10:29,191 --> 00:10:30,331
It just seems to most normal

392
00:10:30,331 --> 00:10:34,201
people, absolutely outrageous that
someone gets paid, grand and a half a day,

393
00:10:34,266 --> 00:10:34,506
to

394
00:10:34,506 --> 00:10:34,776
come

395
00:10:34,776 --> 00:10:35,106
in

396
00:10:35,316 --> 00:10:35,496
to

397
00:10:35,496 --> 00:10:37,416
an authority that is struggling

398
00:10:37,416 --> 00:10:39,006
financially, Is in

399
00:10:39,006 --> 00:10:39,786
deficit, has

400
00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:41,376
borrowed hundreds of thousands

401
00:10:41,376 --> 00:10:45,775
of money from the government or been
handed out, funding to help it survive.

402
00:10:45,775 --> 00:10:45,925
And

403
00:10:45,925 --> 00:10:47,125
on top of that, you're then paying

404
00:10:47,308 --> 00:10:48,460
Andy: someone a grand and a half a

405
00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:48,790
day.

406
00:10:48,865 --> 00:10:49,155
Yeah.

407
00:10:49,410 --> 00:10:51,426
But it just, it feels so much So many of

408
00:10:51,426 --> 00:10:54,426
the things they might have made decisions
about in the past or had control over,

409
00:10:54,426 --> 00:10:57,816
they now don't, Which is why you do
get changes of party happening and

410
00:10:57,816 --> 00:11:01,236
then people coming in and saying,
oh, we're spending 75% of our budget

411
00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:02,736
on adult and children's social care.

412
00:11:02,736 --> 00:11:02,796
Yeah.

413
00:11:02,817 --> 00:11:05,330
Adam: I think one of the problems,
both for reform coming in was the

414
00:11:05,330 --> 00:11:07,790
assumption that they would be able to
make these sort of swing and cuts and

415
00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:11,275
things and then finding out how little
actually, local authorities do control.

416
00:11:11,445 --> 00:11:13,815
And how much of it is
with national government.

417
00:11:14,055 --> 00:11:17,085
But I think also there's a sort of
democratic problem in that most, council

418
00:11:17,085 --> 00:11:20,805
tax taxpayers and voters also don't
understand whose responsibility is what.

419
00:11:21,495 --> 00:11:24,105
and it tends to get used in the same
way that sort of elections to the,

420
00:11:24,435 --> 00:11:27,675
European Parliament did as well as a
sort of protest vote and a judgment on

421
00:11:27,675 --> 00:11:31,545
the current national government rather
than actually, this is a case where, you

422
00:11:31,545 --> 00:11:32,685
can make a difference for the community.

423
00:11:32,685 --> 00:11:35,115
You can change things that you will
actually see on the ground quite quickly.

424
00:11:35,115 --> 00:11:38,055
Yeah, and I think just to go back
to reform on that, I think what's

425
00:11:38,055 --> 00:11:41,355
interesting with reform is that a
lot of these new councils who come in

426
00:11:41,775 --> 00:11:42,045
are

427
00:11:42,045 --> 00:11:44,025
very much towing the national party line,

428
00:11:44,025 --> 00:11:44,175
which

429
00:11:44,175 --> 00:11:44,505
is that,

430
00:11:44,775 --> 00:11:45,915
hard on immigration.

431
00:11:47,115 --> 00:11:48,735
net zero when the council and that.

432
00:11:49,275 --> 00:11:53,155
But actually that is not relevant on
the local level because councils don.

433
00:11:53,775 --> 00:11:55,095
control immigration.

434
00:11:55,095 --> 00:11:56,295
have nothing to do with the small

435
00:11:56,295 --> 00:11:57,705
votes, in terms

436
00:11:57,705 --> 00:11:57,825
of

437
00:11:58,515 --> 00:11:59,805
stopping people from coming in.

438
00:12:00,225 --> 00:12:00,405
So

439
00:12:00,465 --> 00:12:03,075
I think that was a big wake up call, both
to them and to voters again, Absolutely.

440
00:12:03,085 --> 00:12:05,445
where they realized that actually
they don't have the power to shut down

441
00:12:05,445 --> 00:12:08,355
these asylum hotels, even if they are
in their, in, in their local area.

442
00:12:08,355 --> 00:12:09,170
That's just not a absolutely.

443
00:12:09,170 --> 00:12:09,330
it's

444
00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:09,795
a perfect

445
00:12:09,795 --> 00:12:14,865
storm of, the elected members not
understanding what the role is.

446
00:12:15,105 --> 00:12:16,605
having no knowledge, no experience

447
00:12:17,085 --> 00:12:18,075
of local government or,

448
00:12:18,465 --> 00:12:18,735
any

449
00:12:18,735 --> 00:12:19,425
kind of

450
00:12:19,845 --> 00:12:21,675
representing any kind of constituency.

451
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,640
And that disconnect between what's
happening on a national policy level and,

452
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,060
a local policy level in terms of what.

453
00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:27,950
Can actually do.

454
00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:31,370
and that changes as well, doesn't
It there, there's already, a

455
00:12:31,370 --> 00:12:34,984
division between borough councils
and county councils with different

456
00:12:34,984 --> 00:12:36,214
responsibilities, for different things.

457
00:12:36,394 --> 00:12:37,234
A lot of that is being changed.

458
00:12:37,234 --> 00:12:37,744
So there were a lot of

459
00:12:37,744 --> 00:12:40,354
the local elections weren't held last
year because they're being turned into

460
00:12:40,501 --> 00:12:44,374
big mayoralties over when I lived down
in, Sussex and we, were about to be

461
00:12:44,374 --> 00:12:47,374
turned into a mayor for the entirety
of both East and West Sussex, which

462
00:12:47,374 --> 00:12:49,054
seems like this enormous ungainly area.

463
00:12:49,054 --> 00:12:49,444
Certainly we,

464
00:12:49,804 --> 00:12:52,114
you're taking it away from sort of
Hastings Borough Council where island,

465
00:12:52,114 --> 00:12:55,264
which is very, small and you'd think
more manageable area that we are gonna

466
00:12:55,264 --> 00:12:57,904
be bundled in with sort of Chichester and
Gatwick and Haywood's Heath and things.

467
00:12:57,904 --> 00:12:58,114
That's right.

468
00:12:58,114 --> 00:12:58,834
It just seems to be,

469
00:12:58,892 --> 00:12:59,702
Helen: not Chichester

470
00:12:59,702 --> 00:12:59,882
Gatwick.

471
00:13:00,617 --> 00:13:01,067
Andy: and not Gatwick

472
00:13:01,327 --> 00:13:01,787
Adam: it was awful.

473
00:13:01,787 --> 00:13:02,827
People in Hayward's Heath.

474
00:13:02,942 --> 00:13:03,212
Yeah.

475
00:13:03,752 --> 00:13:04,202
Speak a different

476
00:13:04,202 --> 00:13:04,742
Helen: language.

477
00:13:04,832 --> 00:13:06,032
They love doing that though, don't

478
00:13:06,062 --> 00:13:08,372
Adam: Adam, You need to,
involve everyone in this.

479
00:13:08,672 --> 00:13:11,252
I think you know that, this LGR thing,

480
00:13:11,252 --> 00:13:12,902
local government reorganization,

481
00:13:13,082 --> 00:13:13,262
this

482
00:13:13,262 --> 00:13:13,862
Helen: is where we're

483
00:13:13,862 --> 00:13:14,582
Adam: dividing up.

484
00:13:14,793 --> 00:13:16,383
local authorities in a different way.

485
00:13:16,383 --> 00:13:18,453
And it's meant to be efficient
and, it's meant to save money.

486
00:13:18,843 --> 00:13:24,393
The problem is not only that I think
most people don't understand what

487
00:13:24,408 --> 00:13:24,918
Helen: it is,

488
00:13:24,933 --> 00:13:28,563
Adam: why it's important, but then
you've got the fighting in between

489
00:13:28,563 --> 00:13:31,173
different authorities because, we
don't wanna go with them 'cause

490
00:13:31,173 --> 00:13:33,623
they are massively in deficit and

491
00:13:33,653 --> 00:13:37,433
officers and elected members at
loggerheads about how this should be done.

492
00:13:37,486 --> 00:13:39,256
And there was The sort of first
wave of mayors, wasn't there,

493
00:13:39,256 --> 00:13:41,026
the sort of Ken Livingstone wave
and then they were brought in.

494
00:13:41,236 --> 00:13:42,676
Bristol has already rejected the idea.

495
00:13:42,676 --> 00:13:43,906
They had a mayor for a while, didn't they?

496
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,426
Yes, They've decided to
get rid of not only him.

497
00:13:46,786 --> 00:13:46,936
the

498
00:13:46,936 --> 00:13:48,221
con the concept of a mayor
completely, isn't they?

499
00:13:48,221 --> 00:13:48,421
That's quite.

500
00:13:49,381 --> 00:13:50,611
And for very good reason.

501
00:13:50,611 --> 00:13:51,691
And if you want to know about

502
00:13:51,691 --> 00:13:53,971
that, look back at Rotten Boroughs
and what we've been doing in,

503
00:13:54,616 --> 00:13:58,306
Helen: Bristol and then didn't, I
wanna say Doncaster elect, a football

504
00:13:58,321 --> 00:13:58,651
Adam: mascot.

505
00:13:58,651 --> 00:13:58,741
That

506
00:13:58,741 --> 00:13:58,831
was

507
00:13:58,831 --> 00:13:58,891
a

508
00:13:58,891 --> 00:13:59,343
monkey.

509
00:13:59,536 --> 00:14:00,106
Helen: Angus The monkey

510
00:14:00,106 --> 00:14:00,466
Angus.

511
00:14:00,466 --> 00:14:00,886
The monkey,

512
00:14:01,021 --> 00:14:01,141
Adam: Yeah.

513
00:14:01,201 --> 00:14:01,471
Yeah.

514
00:14:01,476 --> 00:14:01,806
And then,

515
00:14:02,011 --> 00:14:02,281
yeah,

516
00:14:02,431 --> 00:14:03,686
who turned out to be rather good at it.

517
00:14:03,686 --> 00:14:04,086
Didn't he?

518
00:14:04,966 --> 00:14:05,086
Actually,

519
00:14:06,066 --> 00:14:07,951
he didn't wear the monkey
costume the whole time he was

520
00:14:07,966 --> 00:14:08,296
Helen: mayor?

521
00:14:08,296 --> 00:14:08,356
I

522
00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:08,446
don't

523
00:14:08,446 --> 00:14:08,716
think, Oh

524
00:14:08,956 --> 00:14:09,196
okay.

525
00:14:09,211 --> 00:14:09,391
Adam: But It's

526
00:14:09,391 --> 00:14:09,691
interesting.

527
00:14:09,691 --> 00:14:11,521
to think back of that
first wave of mayors.

528
00:14:11,521 --> 00:14:11,881
You're right.

529
00:14:11,881 --> 00:14:12,961
Under the Blair government.

530
00:14:12,961 --> 00:14:15,511
It was very much the
kind of shiny new thing.

531
00:14:15,541 --> 00:14:15,841
Helen: And it's,

532
00:14:15,856 --> 00:14:16,066
Saba: you

533
00:14:17,761 --> 00:14:20,011
Adam: relatively speaking,
quite a sexy thing in

534
00:14:20,041 --> 00:14:21,001
Helen: local government because, we

535
00:14:21,001 --> 00:14:21,751
Adam: don't have mayors.

536
00:14:21,751 --> 00:14:22,831
It's quite exciting.

537
00:14:22,831 --> 00:14:26,341
You've got these, and there's, people
are fighting and there's promotion,

538
00:14:26,341 --> 00:14:31,173
there's campaigns, and then you compare
it to what's actually, going on with

539
00:14:31,173 --> 00:14:33,248
what these people have done or not done.

540
00:14:33,687 --> 00:14:36,837
Yeah, I, to, to, expand on my point,
that I'm not just a West Sussex phobe.

541
00:14:37,377 --> 00:14:39,987
The, point then seemed to be devolution
right down to kinda city level.

542
00:14:39,987 --> 00:14:42,567
And now it seems to have moved into
these sort of macro authorities who are

543
00:14:42,567 --> 00:14:44,877
gonna take on enormous kind of areas.

544
00:14:45,117 --> 00:14:48,297
And, also the other thing that we,
that's common is going as well is police

545
00:14:48,297 --> 00:14:49,407
and crime commissioners, isn't it?

546
00:14:49,407 --> 00:14:51,807
Which is brought in by the
camera government never

547
00:14:51,807 --> 00:14:52,947
caught on no one like those.

548
00:14:52,947 --> 00:14:54,177
And they're off now as well, aren't they?

549
00:14:54,177 --> 00:14:54,732
And that's it.

550
00:14:54,737 --> 00:14:55,527
That's a huge thing.

551
00:14:55,527 --> 00:14:58,737
So I think there's, about 40 of
these commissioners, police fir and

552
00:14:58,737 --> 00:15:01,564
crime commissioners or police
commissions depending where you are.

553
00:15:02,014 --> 00:15:06,094
and they have been, said
to be a failed experiment.

554
00:15:06,199 --> 00:15:06,289
Helen: They

555
00:15:06,289 --> 00:15:06,499
were on

556
00:15:06,499 --> 00:15:07,939
about, they weren't quite a lot of money,

557
00:15:07,939 --> 00:15:08,149
weren't

558
00:15:08,344 --> 00:15:08,404
Adam: they?

559
00:15:08,404 --> 00:15:08,734
Yes.

560
00:15:08,794 --> 00:15:12,154
So some of them, I think the
average is about 76,000 pounds.

561
00:15:12,424 --> 00:15:13,564
but it goes up from that.

562
00:15:13,564 --> 00:15:15,514
Some of them are part-time,
they've got deputies

563
00:15:15,869 --> 00:15:18,819
Saba: They, These commissioners come
in and they scrutinize what's going

564
00:15:18,819 --> 00:15:21,009
on, with the police now we have got

565
00:15:21,009 --> 00:15:23,799
a story, coming up, which of course
I can't go into because you have

566
00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:25,359
to buy magazine to read it.

567
00:15:25,816 --> 00:15:26,296
but

568
00:15:26,746 --> 00:15:27,616
in Northamptonshire,

569
00:15:27,616 --> 00:15:29,806
for example, there's been all sorts

570
00:15:29,806 --> 00:15:31,846
of problems with the, commissioner there.

571
00:15:32,187 --> 00:15:32,307
the

572
00:15:32,307 --> 00:15:34,173
previous commissioner, got sack.

573
00:15:34,173 --> 00:15:36,783
New commissioner came in and
has been trying to turn around

574
00:15:37,143 --> 00:15:38,750
what the police, are doing.

575
00:15:39,140 --> 00:15:40,010
Not quite gone to

576
00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:40,440
plan.

577
00:15:40,764 --> 00:15:43,464
Helen: I guess notoriously reforming
the police is very difficult.

578
00:15:43,464 --> 00:15:46,194
Even if you're Theresa man,
you're coming in as prime Minister

579
00:15:46,554 --> 00:15:48,624
or you're s kh trying to
sack the head of the Met.

580
00:15:48,834 --> 00:15:50,124
these are really difficult things.

581
00:15:50,334 --> 00:15:54,624
The idea that someone could bowl
in, and go, lad, I've got some

582
00:15:54,624 --> 00:15:56,724
great ideas and, be listened to.

583
00:15:56,934 --> 00:15:58,944
I, think I was quite a
ambitious from the start.

584
00:15:58,944 --> 00:15:59,124
Yeah.

585
00:15:59,124 --> 00:16:01,699
and I think there's also a cultural
thing going on where you've got a lot

586
00:16:01,749 --> 00:16:04,419
Saba: the commissioners
are ex elected members.

587
00:16:04,959 --> 00:16:08,499
they're coming in to oversee
an organization which is

588
00:16:08,499 --> 00:16:09,669
very different culturally.

589
00:16:09,987 --> 00:16:11,217
there's a clash there.

590
00:16:11,397 --> 00:16:13,257
Adam: One of the issues I had with
that were right the outset was it

591
00:16:13,257 --> 00:16:15,687
immediately divided along party political
lines that you were voting for either

592
00:16:15,687 --> 00:16:18,117
your conservative plea and crime
commission or your labor or whatever.

593
00:16:18,387 --> 00:16:20,817
And in a way, that's I think a problem
with a lot of local government and

594
00:16:20,817 --> 00:16:23,847
there's no actual real need for national
parties to be involved in any of it.

595
00:16:23,847 --> 00:16:26,967
Is there, would independent people
who are concerned about local issues

596
00:16:26,967 --> 00:16:31,257
not be better than possibly party
appic who are looking to go onto the

597
00:16:31,257 --> 00:16:32,317
House of Commons later in that career?

598
00:16:32,997 --> 00:16:33,147
And,

599
00:16:33,267 --> 00:16:38,018
funnily enough, a lot of the reform
counselors who've quit, or been suspended

600
00:16:38,018 --> 00:16:40,118
or expelled are, becoming independent.

601
00:16:40,164 --> 00:16:45,653
so yes, a lot of, local authorities have
these independent, or independent labor.

602
00:16:46,403 --> 00:16:49,043
so you're not really aligned with
the national, but you politically

603
00:16:49,043 --> 00:16:51,383
and ethically, you are left leaning,
so you are independent labor.

604
00:16:52,448 --> 00:16:54,068
and maybe that's the answer.

605
00:16:54,068 --> 00:16:58,557
Maybe all these councils we write
about should be independent, and

606
00:16:58,557 --> 00:17:02,217
therefore not be tied to their
national political party lines.

607
00:17:02,217 --> 00:17:02,697
I dunno.

608
00:17:03,267 --> 00:17:05,332
Perhaps, we've solved
the whole problem there.

609
00:17:05,332 --> 00:17:05,652
We are, right?

610
00:17:05,652 --> 00:17:06,252
We're sorted.

611
00:17:06,642 --> 00:17:06,992
Andy: right

612
00:17:07,092 --> 00:17:07,212
Saba: to

613
00:17:07,342 --> 00:17:07,812
Adam: Early days.

614
00:17:07,857 --> 00:17:08,307
Andy: in the next year.

615
00:17:08,322 --> 00:17:08,622
Saba: issue.

616
00:17:08,972 --> 00:17:09,132
Adam: Excellent.

617
00:17:12,115 --> 00:17:12,655
Now for the next

618
00:17:12,655 --> 00:17:15,505
Helen: section of today's
show, we're going to talk about

619
00:17:15,655 --> 00:17:17,965
a party that doesn't have

620
00:17:18,505 --> 00:17:19,105
Adam: a leader

621
00:17:19,765 --> 00:17:20,005
Helen: or

622
00:17:20,095 --> 00:17:20,395
not

623
00:17:20,395 --> 00:17:21,325
Adam: an effective leader.

624
00:17:21,805 --> 00:17:22,135
And it

625
00:17:22,135 --> 00:17:22,405
doesn't

626
00:17:22,405 --> 00:17:22,915
narrow it down

627
00:17:22,915 --> 00:17:23,125
much.

628
00:17:23,125 --> 00:17:23,215
I

629
00:17:23,215 --> 00:17:23,305
know.

630
00:17:23,545 --> 00:17:24,550
Helen: So let's,

631
00:17:24,685 --> 00:17:26,785
zero in and say, we're

632
00:17:26,785 --> 00:17:26,995
talking

633
00:17:26,995 --> 00:17:28,135
Adam: about two particular parties,

634
00:17:28,195 --> 00:17:28,705
which I think

635
00:17:28,705 --> 00:17:31,855
Helen: are very closely linked, talking
about the Democratic Party in the USA.

636
00:17:31,915 --> 00:17:32,275
Yes.

637
00:17:32,725 --> 00:17:32,935
And we're

638
00:17:32,935 --> 00:17:33,145
talking

639
00:17:33,145 --> 00:17:33,325
about

640
00:17:33,325 --> 00:17:34,675
your party in

641
00:17:34,675 --> 00:17:35,215
the uk.

642
00:17:35,380 --> 00:17:36,119
but these are parties which

643
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:36,899
don't have

644
00:17:36,989 --> 00:17:37,709
leaders.

645
00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:38,249
Your party

646
00:17:38,249 --> 00:17:38,339
have

647
00:17:38,339 --> 00:17:38,519
Adam: just

648
00:17:38,519 --> 00:17:38,729
had their

649
00:17:38,729 --> 00:17:38,909
first

650
00:17:38,909 --> 00:17:39,359
Helen: conference and

651
00:17:39,839 --> 00:17:39,989
they've

652
00:17:39,989 --> 00:17:40,349
voted

653
00:17:40,349 --> 00:17:42,269
not to have one single leader.

654
00:17:42,329 --> 00:17:42,599
Yes.

655
00:17:42,599 --> 00:17:43,769
By the cursed ratio.

656
00:17:43,769 --> 00:17:46,289
We've almost pretty much 52 to 48.

657
00:17:46,289 --> 00:17:46,499
Really?

658
00:17:46,499 --> 00:17:46,859
Yeah.

659
00:17:46,859 --> 00:17:48,089
It was really close to that.

660
00:17:48,179 --> 00:17:48,455
And then

661
00:17:48,464 --> 00:17:50,804
Andy: the other thing is that
the Democratic party in the

662
00:17:50,804 --> 00:17:53,024
States doesn't have a leader.

663
00:17:53,024 --> 00:17:54,344
And I've always found it baffling.

664
00:17:54,344 --> 00:17:55,364
I've never understood.

665
00:17:55,694 --> 00:17:56,234
So you've got

666
00:17:56,504 --> 00:17:57,224
your man in the White

667
00:17:57,224 --> 00:17:58,004
House over here

668
00:17:58,094 --> 00:17:58,754
and.

669
00:17:59,264 --> 00:17:59,594
who

670
00:18:00,045 --> 00:18:02,535
Helen: that's, that is the down
one of many downsides, I would

671
00:18:02,535 --> 00:18:03,975
say, to a presidential system.

672
00:18:04,125 --> 00:18:06,315
The other massive one, of course,
being different from a prime

673
00:18:06,315 --> 00:18:09,255
ministerial system being that
there's no incentive for the party in

674
00:18:09,255 --> 00:18:10,995
government to get rid of a doff leader.

675
00:18:11,715 --> 00:18:13,095
Whereas what happens in a Prime Minister,

676
00:18:13,455 --> 00:18:16,125
they go, thank you Liz Trusts, but
you've delighted us long enough.

677
00:18:16,785 --> 00:18:17,715
and that's that

678
00:18:17,715 --> 00:18:18,045
can't

679
00:18:18,045 --> 00:18:18,465
happen

680
00:18:18,465 --> 00:18:18,645
in the

681
00:18:18,645 --> 00:18:22,605
same way in, in the States, even
though even now in the remaking of the

682
00:18:22,845 --> 00:18:25,425
Republican party, still the party's
still full of republicans who are

683
00:18:25,425 --> 00:18:27,165
deeply unhappy about his leadership.

684
00:18:27,165 --> 00:18:27,585
But, sorry,

685
00:18:27,983 --> 00:18:28,823
labor the point.

686
00:18:28,883 --> 00:18:29,123
Yeah.

687
00:18:29,153 --> 00:18:32,543
Why does a presidential system mean you
can't have some kind of party leader,

688
00:18:32,823 --> 00:18:33,038
Adam: even

689
00:18:33,038 --> 00:18:33,248
in

690
00:18:33,488 --> 00:18:34,358
a leader of the opposition,

691
00:18:34,403 --> 00:18:34,793
Helen: essentially.

692
00:18:34,823 --> 00:18:35,183
Yeah.

693
00:18:35,213 --> 00:18:37,913
But what, official
position would they hold?

694
00:18:37,913 --> 00:18:41,093
Because that's the thing that
constitutionally, we have her leader,

695
00:18:41,363 --> 00:18:43,223
now his Majesty's loyal position.

696
00:18:43,493 --> 00:18:44,843
They are in the commons.

697
00:18:44,843 --> 00:18:48,923
They get the questions that prime
minister's questions, like there is a

698
00:18:48,923 --> 00:18:50,543
kind of constitutional role for them.

699
00:18:50,753 --> 00:18:52,403
There's no version of that in America.

700
00:18:52,403 --> 00:18:55,103
There are, obviously, there's
the senate and house minority

701
00:18:55,103 --> 00:18:56,213
leaders as they are at the moment.

702
00:18:56,213 --> 00:19:00,353
So the, they're the most senior Democrats
in the legislature, but they've got

703
00:19:00,383 --> 00:19:04,583
three branches of government and no one,
there's no executive version of them.

704
00:19:04,913 --> 00:19:07,673
Although every, what's essentially
happened is that people have tried to

705
00:19:07,673 --> 00:19:09,203
make themselves into that person through

706
00:19:09,218 --> 00:19:09,788
Adam: the medium of

707
00:19:09,788 --> 00:19:10,568
podcasts.

708
00:19:12,203 --> 00:19:12,553
How's

709
00:19:12,593 --> 00:19:12,893
Helen: going?

710
00:19:13,343 --> 00:19:15,143
actually not too bad.

711
00:19:15,773 --> 00:19:16,823
as it goes so.

712
00:19:17,368 --> 00:19:22,528
Obviously a very tough and rough defeat
for, Kamala Harris at the last election.

713
00:19:22,768 --> 00:19:24,448
She's vibing round.

714
00:19:24,448 --> 00:19:26,488
She was thought to be running
for governor of California,

715
00:19:26,488 --> 00:19:27,688
but has declined to do that.

716
00:19:28,108 --> 00:19:30,628
Tim Waltz, her running mate,
is governor of Minnesota.

717
00:19:30,658 --> 00:19:32,608
He's currently engaged in an ongoing feud

718
00:19:32,633 --> 00:19:33,563
Adam: with Donald Trump, but then

719
00:19:33,958 --> 00:19:34,408
Helen: who isn't?

720
00:19:34,418 --> 00:19:34,868
Andy: Aren't we all?

721
00:19:35,942 --> 00:19:38,582
Helen: I really do not rate his
chances of, running again for

722
00:19:38,582 --> 00:19:39,452
a number of different reasons.

723
00:19:40,832 --> 00:19:42,542
you have these kind of
bigger figures emerging.

724
00:19:42,542 --> 00:19:44,162
Mostly governors actually.

725
00:19:44,162 --> 00:19:47,372
So they, what people were
for time, very excited about

726
00:19:47,552 --> 00:19:48,962
Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan.

727
00:19:49,532 --> 00:19:52,262
Gavin Newsom in California has
just come off this big victory of

728
00:19:52,262 --> 00:19:54,242
redistricting, which we can talk about.

729
00:19:54,242 --> 00:19:56,342
I know you're excited
about the gerrymander.

730
00:19:57,062 --> 00:19:58,892
but also people like Pete Buttigieg who

731
00:19:58,892 --> 00:20:01,082
served in, Biden's cabinet.

732
00:20:01,292 --> 00:20:02,492
he was Secretary of Transportation.

733
00:20:03,092 --> 00:20:06,032
He's, done a podcast around,
essentially to pop up.

734
00:20:06,482 --> 00:20:09,542
But, JB Pritzker, the governor
of Illinois is another example

735
00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:13,608
of a governor who is having profile
raising battles with, Trump.

736
00:20:13,638 --> 00:20:15,348
So that's what a lot of the
Democratic governors are

737
00:20:15,348 --> 00:20:19,368
doing, is trying to turn themselves into
the leader of the opposition by being

738
00:20:19,518 --> 00:20:21,708
the most effective anti-Trump voice.

739
00:20:22,308 --> 00:20:24,078
Both in their own states and also

740
00:20:24,093 --> 00:20:24,903
Adam: on, on,

741
00:20:25,023 --> 00:20:25,233
on

742
00:20:25,233 --> 00:20:25,743
tv.

743
00:20:26,013 --> 00:20:29,218
Are they doing that though, specifically
to take a run at being, at being

744
00:20:29,283 --> 00:20:29,973
presidential candidate

745
00:20:29,988 --> 00:20:30,168
Helen: next

746
00:20:30,168 --> 00:20:30,348
time

747
00:20:30,348 --> 00:20:30,558
round?

748
00:20:30,558 --> 00:20:30,888
Because that

749
00:20:30,888 --> 00:20:31,098
is

750
00:20:31,818 --> 00:20:31,908
who

751
00:20:31,908 --> 00:20:32,448
can say Adam?

752
00:20:32,928 --> 00:20:34,428
they're not announcing,
they're not running.

753
00:20:34,743 --> 00:20:34,863
Adam: Who

754
00:20:34,863 --> 00:20:35,043
can,

755
00:20:35,043 --> 00:20:35,223
say

756
00:20:35,223 --> 00:20:35,373
what

757
00:20:35,373 --> 00:20:35,433
the

758
00:20:35,433 --> 00:20:35,853
ambitions

759
00:20:35,853 --> 00:20:35,863
of

760
00:20:36,018 --> 00:20:38,793
It's is it not, I'm like, I'm,
I do find it slightly bizarre.

761
00:20:38,793 --> 00:20:39,633
I'm in a situation here

762
00:20:39,633 --> 00:20:41,763
of arguing for a system of Kemi Bock.

763
00:20:42,333 --> 00:20:45,783
But having no effective leader of the
opposition is quite weird, isn't it?

764
00:20:45,933 --> 00:20:46,173
we don't,

765
00:20:46,803 --> 00:20:50,373
we, don't get a single figure who
the party un unites behind until

766
00:20:50,403 --> 00:20:52,833
the next round of president's
primaries, which is two,

767
00:20:52,848 --> 00:20:53,058
Helen: three

768
00:20:53,058 --> 00:20:53,268
years

769
00:20:53,268 --> 00:20:53,568
away.

770
00:20:53,778 --> 00:20:54,918
Yeah, no, they'll be

771
00:20:55,278 --> 00:20:57,378
a, after the midterms it'll
begin to, the pack will begin to

772
00:20:57,378 --> 00:20:58,848
mention that's November next year.

773
00:20:58,938 --> 00:21:01,728
But is that where they have to
have some bloody long choosing the,

774
00:21:01,728 --> 00:21:05,238
candidate so that they can actually
show their people to the electorate and

775
00:21:05,238 --> 00:21:06,138
say, look, these are your

776
00:21:06,138 --> 00:21:06,798
potential.

777
00:21:07,203 --> 00:21:11,643
Yeah, the party, there is a real idea that
the primary season is about really lots

778
00:21:11,643 --> 00:21:16,473
of people, the core, various core votes
for the parties getting their say and so

779
00:21:16,473 --> 00:21:20,313
one of the thing, one of the big questions
about next time is Pete, but is running.

780
00:21:20,313 --> 00:21:23,103
He hasn't announced it, but everyone
knows it is he's gay, married

781
00:21:23,103 --> 00:21:24,843
to a guy, got two adopted kids.

782
00:21:25,083 --> 00:21:29,643
There is a question over whether the
democratic base, which is churchgoing,

783
00:21:29,853 --> 00:21:34,743
black Americans, often in southern states
are ready to vote for a, gay candidate.

784
00:21:34,863 --> 00:21:36,783
And so people are very
tense about him running.

785
00:21:37,083 --> 00:21:41,433
But in 2008, people were very tense
about the idea about whether or not white

786
00:21:41,433 --> 00:21:43,473
Americans would vote for a black Democrat.

787
00:21:43,833 --> 00:21:47,343
So one thing that you do is have
that primary season, and Barack Obama

788
00:21:47,343 --> 00:21:51,543
emerged through that primary season
as just being the, obvious superstar.

789
00:21:51,813 --> 00:21:55,203
And therefore people felt okay
about sending him into the, general.

790
00:21:55,473 --> 00:21:55,593
They

791
00:21:55,593 --> 00:21:58,233
didn't feel it was such a massive
risk because he had proved himself

792
00:21:58,233 --> 00:22:00,003
through that long audition process.

793
00:22:00,044 --> 00:22:01,574
is it not a big disadvantage

794
00:22:01,604 --> 00:22:03,944
to whichever party is not in office at

795
00:22:03,959 --> 00:22:04,379
Adam: the moment

796
00:22:04,394 --> 00:22:04,514
Helen: that

797
00:22:04,514 --> 00:22:04,634
you

798
00:22:04,634 --> 00:22:04,814
have?

799
00:22:05,309 --> 00:22:05,519
Adam: a

800
00:22:06,014 --> 00:22:09,974
Helen: who is very well known and
most of the electorate are not

801
00:22:09,974 --> 00:22:10,934
paying a huge amount of attention

802
00:22:10,934 --> 00:22:11,454
to politics, but.

803
00:22:11,459 --> 00:22:11,639
Adam: but

804
00:22:12,704 --> 00:22:13,124
Helen: they, will know

805
00:22:13,784 --> 00:22:13,864
who the president.

806
00:22:13,864 --> 00:22:14,114
is.

807
00:22:14,174 --> 00:22:14,564
Yeah.

808
00:22:14,564 --> 00:22:16,049
That's why they call it the bully pulpit.

809
00:22:16,094 --> 00:22:20,444
That's the, that is the great, benefit
of the American presidency is you get to

810
00:22:20,444 --> 00:22:24,734
just be the one person who's in charge and
there's no one with an equivalent stature.

811
00:22:25,124 --> 00:22:29,624
And quite notoriously, when you have the
first president versus contender debate,

812
00:22:29,864 --> 00:22:33,194
that contender gets a bump in their
polling ratings because for the first

813
00:22:33,194 --> 00:22:34,904
time they're on stage with the president.

814
00:22:35,144 --> 00:22:38,354
They move up from this sort of
amorphous realm of opposition to

815
00:22:38,354 --> 00:22:42,314
being like president versus would
be president, the status increases.

816
00:22:43,094 --> 00:22:43,874
and that's often about that.

817
00:22:44,444 --> 00:22:48,074
when you narrow it down to that one
person who is the nominee from the

818
00:22:48,074 --> 00:22:51,074
other party, that's when they get
secret service protection, for example.

819
00:22:51,224 --> 00:22:52,964
There is a, just a, feeling at that point.

820
00:22:52,964 --> 00:22:53,684
They ascend.

821
00:22:53,729 --> 00:22:53,789
Yeah.

822
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:56,399
but this is compounded at the
moment due the fact that the

823
00:22:56,399 --> 00:22:59,789
Republicans control the presidency,
but also the House and the Senate.

824
00:23:00,299 --> 00:23:03,929
So they've got the, trifecta to use
the, oh, I'm gonna use one of my

825
00:23:03,929 --> 00:23:05,459
many nobby American words in this.

826
00:23:05,697 --> 00:23:08,746
the midterms are such a big
event that Trump has been very

827
00:23:08,746 --> 00:23:11,176
keen to consolidate his power.

828
00:23:11,296 --> 00:23:14,206
And basically if  they lose control
of the house of the Senate in

829
00:23:14,206 --> 00:23:17,536
the midterms, that means that the
opposition party gets to control.

830
00:23:17,806 --> 00:23:19,426
The legislative agenda.

831
00:23:19,426 --> 00:23:22,576
So what gets voted on, they get to
be in charge of the committees, which

832
00:23:22,576 --> 00:23:25,986
might do things like investigate
some of the actions of Donald J.

833
00:23:25,986 --> 00:23:27,976
Trump, Esquire, that sort of thing.

834
00:23:27,976 --> 00:23:29,956
So he's very keen to retain control.

835
00:23:30,256 --> 00:23:33,971
And so he's been pushing
Republican states, red states to

836
00:23:33,971 --> 00:23:35,351
change their congressional maps.

837
00:23:35,381 --> 00:23:38,706
And you do that by basically taking
a swing district and finding a bit

838
00:23:38,706 --> 00:23:41,646
of red and cobbling that on the side.

839
00:23:42,126 --> 00:23:42,966
That's the, gerrymander.

840
00:23:42,966 --> 00:23:43,056
Okay.

841
00:23:43,536 --> 00:23:47,706
However, this has gone not as well
as he thought, and I thought we could

842
00:23:47,706 --> 00:23:48,816
just take a moment to appreciate.

843
00:23:49,056 --> 00:23:52,056
I love it when someone does something
that's really ethically wrong and

844
00:23:52,056 --> 00:23:54,966
then it backfires on them and this
one looks like it might do that.

845
00:23:55,146 --> 00:23:57,186
So it started really in, in Texas.

846
00:23:57,936 --> 00:24:01,103
They, ma made another five seats
that were really much more likely

847
00:24:01,103 --> 00:24:04,583
to swing to the Republicans there,
even though the Democrats all left

848
00:24:04,583 --> 00:24:07,403
the state for the summer to try
and avoid having to vote on it.

849
00:24:07,853 --> 00:24:12,443
But that has been, stayed by a federal
court basically because someone in

850
00:24:12,443 --> 00:24:16,328
the Department of Justice, one Trump's
appointees, wrote a letter saying,

851
00:24:16,418 --> 00:24:17,708
we're doing this on racial terms.

852
00:24:18,638 --> 00:24:20,468
and of course one of the
things that's very much not

853
00:24:20,468 --> 00:24:22,328
allowed is to do gerrymanders,

854
00:24:22,688 --> 00:24:25,238
to reduce the power of minority voters.

855
00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:26,026
legal.

856
00:24:26,026 --> 00:24:26,176
Maybe

857
00:24:26,416 --> 00:24:28,456
we're under the Voting Rights
Act, we're against that.

858
00:24:28,696 --> 00:24:32,386
And so she probably should not have
put that in writing at the moment.

859
00:24:32,416 --> 00:24:35,956
The, justice Alito on the Supreme Court
has let that map go forward for now,

860
00:24:35,956 --> 00:24:38,027
but not nailed on that will happen.

861
00:24:38,237 --> 00:24:40,892
So that's five seats the Republicans
were hoping to have and then what

862
00:24:40,892 --> 00:24:43,772
happened in response to that is
California are very blue state.

863
00:24:43,772 --> 00:24:44,012
When.

864
00:24:44,057 --> 00:24:44,327
Adam: well.

865
00:24:45,152 --> 00:24:45,512
Helen: See how

866
00:24:45,512 --> 00:24:45,662
you

867
00:24:45,662 --> 00:24:45,902
like

868
00:24:45,902 --> 00:24:46,112
Jerry.

869
00:24:46,202 --> 00:24:46,442
You

870
00:24:46,442 --> 00:24:46,592
can do

871
00:24:46,712 --> 00:24:46,832
well.

872
00:24:46,832 --> 00:24:47,222
The Gerry

873
00:24:47,732 --> 00:24:50,012
becomes the Gerry Bandee, and

874
00:24:50,402 --> 00:24:50,672
they've

875
00:24:51,092 --> 00:24:54,542
come up with a new map that adds
five Democratic leaning seats.

876
00:24:54,692 --> 00:24:55,772
And being California, they

877
00:24:55,772 --> 00:24:56,762
Adam: had to vote on this.

878
00:24:57,512 --> 00:24:58,502
Helen: They love a ballot measure.

879
00:24:58,832 --> 00:25:02,942
So Gavin Newsom, who very much does want
to be president, put this to the people.

880
00:25:03,212 --> 00:25:07,532
The only people opposing it really
was Arnie, who was very in favor

881
00:25:07,532 --> 00:25:11,192
of the independent redistricting,
but he came out and said, terminate

882
00:25:11,192 --> 00:25:14,132
the gerrymander, and then didn't
really do any other campaigning.

883
00:25:14,432 --> 00:25:14,972
So

884
00:25:15,242 --> 00:25:15,572
Gavin

885
00:25:15,572 --> 00:25:15,962
Newsom

886
00:25:15,992 --> 00:25:16,442
won.

887
00:25:16,652 --> 00:25:19,382
And so sure enough, you're in a
situation where the Texas one might

888
00:25:19,382 --> 00:25:20,762
not go through the California one.

889
00:25:20,762 --> 00:25:22,022
Definitely has gone through.

890
00:25:22,857 --> 00:25:27,987
Then places like Indiana, Donald Trump is
massively pressuring the lawmakers there.

891
00:25:27,987 --> 00:25:30,987
But I thought this was an
interesting information point.

892
00:25:31,017 --> 00:25:34,786
There's a, an Indiana state, senator who

893
00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:39,886
responded very badly to Trump, sent a true
social post over Thanksgiving in which he

894
00:25:40,397 --> 00:25:41,357
Kamala Harris's running mate.

895
00:25:41,357 --> 00:25:43,997
Tim was, he said he was retarded
'cause of all the things that

896
00:25:43,997 --> 00:25:45,227
he was doing in Minnesota.

897
00:25:45,557 --> 00:25:48,767
And this guy did a tweet that said,
I've got a daughter with Down syndrome.

898
00:25:48,977 --> 00:25:50,447
Words have consequences.

899
00:25:50,597 --> 00:25:52,877
I will be voting no on the gerrymander.

900
00:25:53,357 --> 00:25:57,107
And this is very rare, the Republican
party, and particularly people at lower

901
00:25:57,107 --> 00:25:59,537
levels who don't want to get fire bombed.

902
00:25:59,747 --> 00:26:02,447
people in Indiana talking about
their threats, their physical

903
00:26:02,447 --> 00:26:05,147
safety don't de oppose Donald Trump.

904
00:26:05,327 --> 00:26:09,257
You get primaried by MAGA people or you
get threats to your office and your home.

905
00:26:09,557 --> 00:26:12,317
And this was interesting to me that
this guy said, oh, I'm sorry, this.

906
00:26:12,617 --> 00:26:12,707
there

907
00:26:12,707 --> 00:26:14,597
are still some lines in American politics.

908
00:26:14,897 --> 00:26:16,187
We don't use language like that.

909
00:26:16,713 --> 00:26:20,103
I wonder if it's the first cracks
beginning to show, and a lot of

910
00:26:20,103 --> 00:26:23,133
people thinking we're gonna get
walloped in the midterms, the

911
00:26:23,133 --> 00:26:24,903
incumbent party traditionally does.

912
00:26:25,653 --> 00:26:27,538
And at some point, unless he really does

913
00:26:27,813 --> 00:26:31,443
run for a third term, we're looking
forward to this post-Trump future.

914
00:26:32,164 --> 00:26:35,044
six months, a year ago, it looked
completely hopeless for the

915
00:26:35,044 --> 00:26:36,814
Democrats, but this is the kind of

916
00:26:37,504 --> 00:26:38,974
thermostatic equilibrium

917
00:26:38,974 --> 00:26:39,064
of

918
00:26:39,064 --> 00:26:39,664
politics.

919
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:42,219
so when asked last month, who is

920
00:26:42,219 --> 00:26:43,749
the Democrats leader?

921
00:26:44,473 --> 00:26:44,593
Adam: do

922
00:26:44,593 --> 00:26:44,683
you

923
00:26:44,683 --> 00:26:45,133
know who won?

924
00:26:46,373 --> 00:26:46,663
Andy: Have

925
00:26:46,738 --> 00:26:46,858
Helen: Have

926
00:26:46,873 --> 00:26:47,413
Adam: a guess.

927
00:26:47,919 --> 00:26:49,809
Helen: I would've, I,
I'd say Newsom Governor.

928
00:26:49,809 --> 00:26:51,729
Newsom, governor of California
has the most name recognition.

929
00:26:51,879 --> 00:26:52,779
Nancy Pelosi.

930
00:26:52,779 --> 00:26:54,639
Barack Obama, Oprah,

931
00:26:54,969 --> 00:26:55,389
Kamala.

932
00:26:55,719 --> 00:26:56,409
Don't know.

933
00:26:56,769 --> 00:26:57,519
Oh

934
00:26:57,519 --> 00:26:57,969
yeah.

935
00:26:57,969 --> 00:26:58,084
I don't

936
00:26:58,084 --> 00:26:58,204
know.

937
00:26:58,209 --> 00:26:59,169
Came in a thumping.

938
00:26:59,179 --> 00:27:02,719
21%. 16% did say Kamala Harris, in

939
00:27:02,719 --> 00:27:02,989
third

940
00:27:02,989 --> 00:27:03,409
place.

941
00:27:03,469 --> 00:27:04,069
Nobody.

942
00:27:04,069 --> 00:27:04,129
Saba: So

943
00:27:05,524 --> 00:27:06,924
Helen: don't dunno, Kamala Harris, nobody

944
00:27:07,864 --> 00:27:08,444
answer to

945
00:27:08,444 --> 00:27:08,564
the

946
00:27:08,614 --> 00:27:08,674
Adam: who

947
00:27:08,674 --> 00:27:09,064
leads your

948
00:27:09,164 --> 00:27:09,404
Helen: party

949
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:11,869
may actually, that's true.

950
00:27:11,869 --> 00:27:14,329
Maybe Kamala Harris has got,
she's not got anything else on.

951
00:27:14,329 --> 00:27:15,229
Maybe she could run for

952
00:27:15,274 --> 00:27:15,364
Adam: the

953
00:27:15,364 --> 00:27:15,814
leadership

954
00:27:15,814 --> 00:27:15,904
of

955
00:27:15,904 --> 00:27:16,249
your party.

956
00:27:16,399 --> 00:27:17,564
Helen: That's the answer
that we've all needed.

957
00:27:18,694 --> 00:27:18,947
Great.

958
00:27:18,947 --> 00:27:19,637
So

959
00:27:19,697 --> 00:27:21,617
just for any international listeners to

960
00:27:21,617 --> 00:27:23,297
this podcast, we have a
party in the UK called

961
00:27:23,297 --> 00:27:24,107
Your Party,

962
00:27:24,377 --> 00:27:24,587
which

963
00:27:24,587 --> 00:27:24,737
is

964
00:27:24,737 --> 00:27:25,847
our newest party.

965
00:27:25,847 --> 00:27:28,445
It's, a very left wing party, maybe

966
00:27:28,445 --> 00:27:30,125
explicitly a socialist party.

967
00:27:31,168 --> 00:27:32,188
hugely exciting.

968
00:27:32,188 --> 00:27:33,898
Got a lot of grassroots energy behind

969
00:27:33,898 --> 00:27:34,048
it.

970
00:27:34,768 --> 00:27:37,588
and the two leaders are
Jeremy Corbin and Za Sultana.

971
00:27:37,618 --> 00:27:38,758
And just for international

972
00:27:38,758 --> 00:27:39,268
listeners, I

973
00:27:39,268 --> 00:27:39,478
would

974
00:27:39,478 --> 00:27:42,808
say imagine Bernie Sanders and

975
00:27:42,868 --> 00:27:43,798
Adam: a OC.

976
00:27:44,608 --> 00:27:47,698
Helen: If they hated each other,
very, cut price version of that.

977
00:27:47,698 --> 00:27:49,168
And they do not get along.

978
00:27:49,618 --> 00:27:50,578
But also they're not the

979
00:27:50,608 --> 00:27:51,418
Adam: two co-leaders

980
00:27:51,538 --> 00:27:51,868
Helen: a result

981
00:27:51,868 --> 00:27:52,228
of this.

982
00:27:53,878 --> 00:27:55,768
Adam: which is probably a
good thing because they really

983
00:27:55,768 --> 00:27:56,608
Helen: don't get on with each other.

984
00:27:56,818 --> 00:27:56,908
No.

985
00:27:56,908 --> 00:27:58,648
So they've had a conference
in which they've elected

986
00:27:58,648 --> 00:27:58,888
not to

987
00:27:58,888 --> 00:27:59,428
have a leader.

988
00:27:59,578 --> 00:27:59,818
Yeah.

989
00:27:59,883 --> 00:28:00,723
Adam: have agreed on that though.

990
00:28:00,783 --> 00:28:01,243
That's the

991
00:28:01,243 --> 00:28:01,603
one thing they

992
00:28:01,628 --> 00:28:01,898
Helen: agreed

993
00:28:01,898 --> 00:28:02,018
on,

994
00:28:02,018 --> 00:28:02,108
that

995
00:28:02,108 --> 00:28:02,198
they

996
00:28:02,198 --> 00:28:02,468
won't

997
00:28:02,468 --> 00:28:02,618
have a

998
00:28:02,618 --> 00:28:02,798
leader.

999
00:28:02,828 --> 00:28:03,008
No.

1000
00:28:03,368 --> 00:28:04,808
they'll have, co-leaders that are chosen

1001
00:28:05,318 --> 00:28:07,478
by, a long process that starts
with the executive committee.

1002
00:28:07,688 --> 00:28:11,198
They will allow people to be members
of other parties as, as well as them.

1003
00:28:11,624 --> 00:28:14,619
it's gonna be tricky because we've
been talking a lot on this podcast the

1004
00:28:14,619 --> 00:28:17,559
last couple of weeks about the success
of the Greens under Zach Polansky,

1005
00:28:17,619 --> 00:28:19,089
and that is a party that moved from

1006
00:28:19,449 --> 00:28:22,299
a dual leader model to just going,
maybe let's just let one guy.

1007
00:28:22,524 --> 00:28:24,951
Or one woman have a crack at
it, and then it'll be a lot more

1008
00:28:24,951 --> 00:28:28,161
easy to identify the party with
a person and a set of positions.

1009
00:28:28,491 --> 00:28:31,401
The thing I would say that I really
took away from watching, maybe too

1010
00:28:31,401 --> 00:28:34,761
much of the live stream of the your
party conference is that there is a,

1011
00:28:34,903 --> 00:28:39,692
difficult split between the anti
colonialist, pro-Palestine, bits of

1012
00:28:39,692 --> 00:28:42,572
the coalition and the socially liberal.

1013
00:28:43,357 --> 00:28:46,477
Younger, whiter activists
part of the coalition.

1014
00:28:46,477 --> 00:28:50,437
So already two members of the
Gaza Independence, two Muslim

1015
00:28:50,437 --> 00:28:54,211
mps, male Muslim mps, resigned
from your party, say essentially.

1016
00:28:54,241 --> 00:28:56,161
'cause they're more socially conservative.

1017
00:28:56,161 --> 00:28:58,321
They said they had some
concerns about the definition of

1018
00:28:58,321 --> 00:28:59,491
woman, all that kind of stuff.

1019
00:29:00,421 --> 00:29:04,651
and they were repeatedly attacked
from the podium as being transphobes,

1020
00:29:05,911 --> 00:29:09,121
by, younger members, and the chair
kept having to say, actually we're

1021
00:29:09,121 --> 00:29:10,501
here to debate the standing orders.

1022
00:29:11,336 --> 00:29:11,641
Thank you.

1023
00:29:11,641 --> 00:29:13,141
That, but those are the two who've already

1024
00:29:13,141 --> 00:29:14,131
left the splitters.

1025
00:29:14,161 --> 00:29:14,491
Yeah.

1026
00:29:14,491 --> 00:29:18,541
And that's also a bit where, Corbin
sits uneasily between the two groups.

1027
00:29:18,781 --> 00:29:20,011
And he, did, when he was leader

1028
00:29:20,011 --> 00:29:22,171
of the labor party, have
to bridge this divide.

1029
00:29:22,627 --> 00:29:26,280
but essentially your party grew outta
the, these Gaza Independence, five male

1030
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,030
Muslim MPS Plus ge, Jeremy
Corbin, and then Zara Tana, who

1031
00:29:30,030 --> 00:29:33,660
is also from that background, but
is much more socially liberal.

1032
00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:37,350
gen Z about it bolted onto that and it's a

1033
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:38,550
Adam: slightly unhappy.

1034
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:42,810
She boycotted the first day of your
party's conference, didn't she?

1035
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:43,830
yeah.

1036
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:45,750
And that was specifically
over, this amused me.

1037
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:48,720
The problem always for parties on the left
and for the left side of labor has always

1038
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,490
been truism and kind of Trotsky sex.

1039
00:29:50,490 --> 00:29:52,530
Trying to worm their way in
through membership and then

1040
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:53,250
affect things in that way.

1041
00:29:53,850 --> 00:29:57,280
She was saying specifically right at the
outset, we've gotta have ENT truism any,

1042
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,720
anyone from any sex socialist workers
party, whatever other cus want, they've

1043
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:01,020
gotta be

1044
00:30:01,020 --> 00:30:01,530
a part of it.

1045
00:30:01,530 --> 00:30:03,330
And that's gotta be part of
the foundation of the party.

1046
00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:04,200
Is that we allow these people?

1047
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:04,290
in.

1048
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,990
So good luck trying to decide
anything with, no leader and a

1049
00:30:06,990 --> 00:30:10,170
committee in charge and then a load
of different, different parties

1050
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:11,220
worm in the way in there

1051
00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:11,640
as well.

1052
00:30:11,850 --> 00:30:11,970
Didn't

1053
00:30:11,970 --> 00:30:12,300
she also

1054
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:14,010
say that it's a 40 year project?

1055
00:30:14,355 --> 00:30:15,480
Helen: The movement luck?

1056
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:15,810
Adam: with that.

1057
00:30:15,810 --> 00:30:15,930
Maybe

1058
00:30:15,930 --> 00:30:16,620
by then

1059
00:30:16,695 --> 00:30:17,415
Helen: they'll have agreed.

1060
00:30:17,505 --> 00:30:17,745
it's good.

1061
00:30:17,745 --> 00:30:17,895
Like

1062
00:30:18,405 --> 00:30:18,495
the

1063
00:30:18,495 --> 00:30:18,795
years in

1064
00:30:18,795 --> 00:30:18,885
the

1065
00:30:18,885 --> 00:30:19,155
desert.

1066
00:30:19,215 --> 00:30:19,395
Yeah.

1067
00:30:19,395 --> 00:30:19,575
So

1068
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:20,280
Adam: it's not,

1069
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,960
a quick fix, this is

1070
00:30:22,140 --> 00:30:22,830
a, long term.

1071
00:30:22,830 --> 00:30:23,640
I'm pretty

1072
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,740
sure that's what change UK was saying back

1073
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:26,100
in the day.

1074
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:26,910
Do you remember them,

1075
00:30:27,135 --> 00:30:28,305
Helen: I do remember the independent group

1076
00:30:29,115 --> 00:30:29,205
and

1077
00:30:29,205 --> 00:30:29,355
all

1078
00:30:29,355 --> 00:30:29,505
that.

1079
00:30:29,505 --> 00:30:30,045
Jeremy's gonna be

1080
00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:31,260
Adam: 14 years old

1081
00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:31,380
by

1082
00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:31,740
the time

1083
00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:32,220
this 14.

1084
00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:34,050
Yeah, he won't mind, he'll
still be making the same speech.

1085
00:30:34,050 --> 00:30:34,770
and People will still be

1086
00:30:34,770 --> 00:30:36,450
chanting, oh, Jeremy
Corbin, it'll be fine.

1087
00:30:39,129 --> 00:30:39,579
Now

1088
00:30:40,074 --> 00:30:40,314
Helen: as the

1089
00:30:40,329 --> 00:30:41,409
Adam: party winds down,

1090
00:30:43,629 --> 00:30:44,679
Helen: no, it's only winding up.

1091
00:30:44,709 --> 00:30:46,149
'cause there's something
incredibly exciting

1092
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:47,169
Adam: happening in British media,

1093
00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:47,679
Helen: there, Adam?

1094
00:30:48,174 --> 00:30:48,294
Andy: This

1095
00:30:48,309 --> 00:30:48,939
Helen: is huge.

1096
00:30:49,779 --> 00:30:53,109
Adam: Yeah, it's the
sale of the Telegraph.

1097
00:30:53,109 --> 00:30:54,549
How long have we been talking about this?

1098
00:30:54,549 --> 00:30:56,679
This actually been running
longer than this podcast now.

1099
00:30:56,679 --> 00:30:57,189
The attempted

1100
00:30:57,219 --> 00:30:57,999
Helen: to attempt to sell off

1101
00:30:57,999 --> 00:30:58,089
Adam: the

1102
00:30:58,479 --> 00:30:59,979
Helen: It's quite, yeah.

1103
00:30:59,979 --> 00:31:01,384
You do sense

1104
00:31:01,449 --> 00:31:02,439
Adam: of, oh gosh.

1105
00:31:02,439 --> 00:31:02,889
Are they,

1106
00:31:02,949 --> 00:31:03,459
it's Lexi.

1107
00:31:03,459 --> 00:31:09,249
It was July, 2023 when, Lloyd's Bank
swooped in and said to the, the, Barclay

1108
00:31:09,249 --> 00:31:11,769
family, you can't pay your debts anymore.

1109
00:31:11,769 --> 00:31:12,159
We are gonna

1110
00:31:12,159 --> 00:31:13,359
Helen: take your newspapers off of you.

1111
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:14,500
So the

1112
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:14,890
Telegraph

1113
00:31:14,890 --> 00:31:15,010
has

1114
00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:15,340
been

1115
00:31:15,820 --> 00:31:16,390
languishing

1116
00:31:16,390 --> 00:31:16,690
without

1117
00:31:16,690 --> 00:31:17,110
an owner

1118
00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:17,770
for

1119
00:31:18,430 --> 00:31:18,610
good,

1120
00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:18,820
couple

1121
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:19,240
of years

1122
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:19,600
now.

1123
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:19,720
And

1124
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:20,260
there have been various

1125
00:31:20,260 --> 00:31:20,470
Adam: bids

1126
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:20,590
that

1127
00:31:20,590 --> 00:31:20,680
have

1128
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:20,860
come

1129
00:31:20,860 --> 00:31:20,950
and

1130
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:21,370
Helen: gone.

1131
00:31:22,150 --> 00:31:22,420
It's

1132
00:31:22,420 --> 00:31:22,750
emerged

1133
00:31:22,750 --> 00:31:22,840
in

1134
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:23,200
Adam: the last few

1135
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:23,800
Helen: days that the

1136
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,980
new prospective owner, of the Telegraph

1137
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:27,130
Adam: he's

1138
00:31:27,130 --> 00:31:27,790
put in a bid

1139
00:31:27,910 --> 00:31:32,050
Helen: is Viant Rother,
current owner of the Daily Mail

1140
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,310
and, the parent company, the

1141
00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:33,850
Adam: Daily Mail

1142
00:31:33,850 --> 00:31:34,720
in General Trust.

1143
00:31:34,841 --> 00:31:36,791
Helen: Cameron, can I have a
quick, can I have a quick recap?

1144
00:31:36,791 --> 00:31:38,711
So basically after that happens, they

1145
00:31:38,711 --> 00:31:40,061
then try and sell it to a

1146
00:31:40,061 --> 00:31:41,771
Qatari backed fund?

1147
00:31:42,416 --> 00:31:47,216
Adam: no, they, initially, Lloyd's Bank
tried to put it up for auction before

1148
00:31:47,216 --> 00:31:49,226
they could do that, A fund called Redbird.

1149
00:31:49,226 --> 00:31:52,886
IMI swept in and said, we will pay
off the debts of the Barclays in

1150
00:31:52,886 --> 00:31:54,596
return for receiving the newspapers.

1151
00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:58,166
And at that point, the spectator
as well, the magazine, in, in,

1152
00:31:58,166 --> 00:32:00,446
in, security for those debts.

1153
00:32:01,256 --> 00:32:04,766
then the government intervened because
there were protests across the newspaper

1154
00:32:04,766 --> 00:32:07,466
industry and from, journalists on
the Telegraph themselves saying we

1155
00:32:07,466 --> 00:32:10,676
can't possibly have, a fund, which
is backed by the government of the

1156
00:32:10,676 --> 00:32:14,726
United Arab Emirates coming in and
taking control of a British newspaper.

1157
00:32:14,726 --> 00:32:15,836
And everyone agreed
this would be terrible.

1158
00:32:15,836 --> 00:32:18,656
So the law, the, whole thing was frozen.

1159
00:32:18,746 --> 00:32:22,496
Ever since then, the Telegraph has been
effectively being run by some independent

1160
00:32:22,496 --> 00:32:24,926
directors who were the people brought
in by the bank in the first place.

1161
00:32:24,926 --> 00:32:25,646
So not people who

1162
00:32:25,886 --> 00:32:26,396
necessarily

1163
00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:29,156
know much about running newspapers,
which has effectively meant editorially.

1164
00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:31,946
They've been allowed to go completely
feral and do whatever they wanted

1165
00:32:31,946 --> 00:32:36,296
to do, which they have taken on with
great gusto under editor Chris Evans.

1166
00:32:36,566 --> 00:32:36,746
They've

1167
00:32:36,746 --> 00:32:38,996
been to my, my reckoning.

1168
00:32:39,071 --> 00:32:40,811
Helen: Not the Chris Evans, the

1169
00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:41,936
Adam: or the one who was

1170
00:32:41,936 --> 00:32:42,462
Captain America.

1171
00:32:42,686 --> 00:32:43,406
No, neither of

1172
00:32:43,406 --> 00:32:43,796
those ones.

1173
00:32:43,801 --> 00:32:44,131
Captain America.

1174
00:32:44,131 --> 00:32:44,451
That's,

1175
00:32:44,561 --> 00:32:45,041
Helen: Captain America.

1176
00:32:46,001 --> 00:32:46,196
Adam: they

1177
00:32:46,331 --> 00:32:46,421
Helen: might

1178
00:32:46,421 --> 00:32:47,081
have done a better job,

1179
00:32:47,951 --> 00:32:48,251
but this

1180
00:32:48,251 --> 00:32:48,491
is a very

1181
00:32:48,491 --> 00:32:49,301
interesting point that

1182
00:32:49,301 --> 00:32:49,661
we've made

1183
00:32:49,661 --> 00:32:50,171
somehow in

1184
00:32:50,171 --> 00:32:50,291
all

1185
00:32:50,291 --> 00:32:50,501
three

1186
00:32:50,501 --> 00:32:51,071
sections,

1187
00:32:51,071 --> 00:32:51,281
is

1188
00:32:51,356 --> 00:32:52,166
Adam: Telegraph have not

1189
00:32:52,481 --> 00:32:52,751
Helen: had a

1190
00:32:52,751 --> 00:32:53,171
leader.

1191
00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:54,596
Adam: they've run

1192
00:32:54,611 --> 00:32:54,761
Helen: lots

1193
00:32:54,761 --> 00:32:54,821
of

1194
00:32:54,821 --> 00:32:55,151
leaders,

1195
00:32:56,366 --> 00:32:56,816
Adam: over the last

1196
00:32:56,831 --> 00:32:57,701
Helen: two and a half years.

1197
00:32:57,851 --> 00:32:58,151
You've got

1198
00:32:58,151 --> 00:32:58,361
your

1199
00:32:58,361 --> 00:32:59,021
party thing,

1200
00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:00,416
Adam: you've got, we've

1201
00:33:00,416 --> 00:33:00,596
got,

1202
00:33:00,926 --> 00:33:03,476
this is your policy of actually,
you always come back to the Belgian

1203
00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:04,856
government having, they didn't have

1204
00:33:04,856 --> 00:33:05,336
one for three years.

1205
00:33:05,336 --> 00:33:06,716
Everything was fine,

1206
00:33:06,761 --> 00:33:07,871
Helen: we wasn't?

1207
00:33:07,961 --> 00:33:11,021
I used to say that, but then No, but
there was a terra cell in Belgium and I

1208
00:33:11,021 --> 00:33:12,521
remember thinking, oh, maybe actually,

1209
00:33:12,866 --> 00:33:13,736
Adam: a year and a half is

1210
00:33:13,736 --> 00:33:13,886
too

1211
00:33:13,886 --> 00:33:14,096
long

1212
00:33:14,096 --> 00:33:14,246
not

1213
00:33:14,246 --> 00:33:16,781
to and there's Alistair Heath and
Alice Pearson at The Telegraph?

1214
00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:18,026
I this is

1215
00:33:18,056 --> 00:33:18,346
Helen: Okay.

1216
00:33:18,886 --> 00:33:19,786
The rough equivalent.

1217
00:33:19,871 --> 00:33:22,541
But look, the ancient history is over.

1218
00:33:22,631 --> 00:33:24,851
Our slightly unstable
friend has finally found a

1219
00:33:24,851 --> 00:33:25,931
new man, and the

1220
00:33:26,156 --> 00:33:27,056
Adam: man she's found

1221
00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:27,596
is.

1222
00:33:28,361 --> 00:33:31,121
one of the old people who
were originally going to

1223
00:33:31,151 --> 00:33:33,551
Helen: bid for it in the first
place, VI Rother, who tried to

1224
00:33:33,551 --> 00:33:34,361
go out with our friend.

1225
00:33:34,361 --> 00:33:35,441
I'm gonna continue the analogy.

1226
00:33:35,441 --> 00:33:37,031
20 years ago, he tried to

1227
00:33:37,031 --> 00:33:37,241
buy the

1228
00:33:37,241 --> 00:33:38,891
Adam: papers, but didn't

1229
00:33:38,891 --> 00:33:39,461
manage to,

1230
00:33:39,671 --> 00:33:40,811
he's had two ghost so far.

1231
00:33:40,811 --> 00:33:43,871
He tried to buy them, originally when
the Barclays got them from Conrad Black.

1232
00:33:44,201 --> 00:33:45,971
that other, interesting businessmen.

1233
00:33:46,481 --> 00:33:49,241
in 2004 when he lost control of
the Telegraph group, he came back

1234
00:33:49,241 --> 00:33:53,291
for another go at the initial
auction before it went to, the UAE.

1235
00:33:54,041 --> 00:33:57,551
at that point, as I said, the
law was changed so that no

1236
00:33:57,551 --> 00:33:58,481
foreign state would be able

1237
00:33:58,481 --> 00:34:02,051
to take a stake in a newspaper initially,
at that point, the Daily Mail group,

1238
00:34:02,111 --> 00:34:06,221
Lord Roth ME'S Group, dropped out because
they were talking, to the Qatari and to

1239
00:34:06,221 --> 00:34:08,591
various other governments in the Middle
East about bringing some money in to

1240
00:34:08,591 --> 00:34:09,281
make a bid for them.

1241
00:34:09,281 --> 00:34:09,821
at that point.

1242
00:34:10,976 --> 00:34:13,976
that law has now been tweaked so that
foreign governments are allowed to take

1243
00:34:13,976 --> 00:34:17,606
15% of a British, newspaper group now,

1244
00:34:17,816 --> 00:34:18,326
But

1245
00:34:18,626 --> 00:34:22,736
Lord Roth me back, is saying
that he's not gonna need any

1246
00:34:22,736 --> 00:34:24,266
foreign state funding at all.

1247
00:34:24,386 --> 00:34:25,556
None of that will be involved.

1248
00:34:25,796 --> 00:34:28,526
which does beg the question, where
is the money actually coming from?

1249
00:34:28,706 --> 00:34:31,826
Because the other strange thing about this
is that he appears to be offering the full

1250
00:34:31,946 --> 00:34:37,376
500 million, which the current, impotent
owners who aren't allowed to do anything

1251
00:34:37,436 --> 00:34:39,776
for it, want to pay back what they paid

1252
00:34:39,791 --> 00:34:39,941
Helen: in the

1253
00:34:39,941 --> 00:34:40,151
first

1254
00:34:40,151 --> 00:34:40,361
place,

1255
00:34:40,946 --> 00:34:44,516
Adam: which in recent months, Even
the Telegraph had been admitting

1256
00:34:44,516 --> 00:34:45,566
that they are not worth that.

1257
00:34:45,566 --> 00:34:48,386
They've been saying that a more
realistic valuation of the newspaper

1258
00:34:48,386 --> 00:34:50,486
group is 300 to 350 million.

1259
00:34:51,116 --> 00:34:52,856
Why is your friend before whack then?

1260
00:34:53,331 --> 00:34:53,681
Sorry

1261
00:34:53,681 --> 00:34:54,321
to ask a really

1262
00:34:54,531 --> 00:34:55,201
basic question.

1263
00:34:55,486 --> 00:34:57,266
It is a very odd question, isn't it?

1264
00:34:57,266 --> 00:34:58,041
Most of asked ter.

1265
00:34:58,631 --> 00:35:00,416
Yeah, it, it does seem a odd one.

1266
00:35:00,746 --> 00:35:03,386
the Telegraph is profitable
if he's looking at a long-term

1267
00:35:03,386 --> 00:35:04,376
kind of investment in it.

1268
00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:08,576
there are ways of, making that money
back there will be obvious as we like

1269
00:35:08,576 --> 00:35:11,306
to call 'em in the business world,
synergies, or as we like to call

1270
00:35:11,306 --> 00:35:14,396
'em in the journalism world, lots of
people getting sacked, particularly

1271
00:35:14,396 --> 00:35:16,736
if I were working in the sort of
back, back room kind of things.

1272
00:35:16,736 --> 00:35:19,556
with, the IT departments Or HR

1273
00:35:20,771 --> 00:35:22,991
Helen: or, the business side of,
or, even the picture desk and the

1274
00:35:22,991 --> 00:35:23,776
subs desk, right?

1275
00:35:24,376 --> 00:35:25,151
that's the classic.

1276
00:35:25,151 --> 00:35:25,511
We let's

1277
00:35:25,801 --> 00:35:26,381
Adam: the Back.

1278
00:35:26,531 --> 00:35:26,981
Helen: backroom.

1279
00:35:27,431 --> 00:35:30,161
Adam: I was gonna CC come onto that
because the other thing that's been

1280
00:35:30,161 --> 00:35:33,221
going on at the Daily Mail Group over
the last year as chronicled in the street

1281
00:35:33,221 --> 00:35:37,211
of Shame pages since January is massive
job cuts at the Daily Mail, which is

1282
00:35:37,301 --> 00:35:40,254
Britain's bestselling Newspaper, still
sells an enormous number of copies.

1283
00:35:40,674 --> 00:35:45,054
so the Daily Mail, mail on Sunday and
the award newspaper for the newspaper

1284
00:35:45,054 --> 00:35:48,504
website, formerly known as the Mail
online, now known as Daily Mail Co

1285
00:35:48,594 --> 00:35:53,274
uk, was shunted together and, and a
load of, duplications and staff who

1286
00:35:53,274 --> 00:35:54,534
got rid of, at that point in January.

1287
00:35:54,834 --> 00:35:57,924
They've since made big job cuts all the
other places that they, own as well.

1288
00:35:57,924 --> 00:36:02,064
So that's the ie. Newspaper, which
people forget, is part of the mail group.

1289
00:36:02,064 --> 00:36:05,664
It's in a, sort of separate wing of the
company to be kept separate, along with

1290
00:36:05,664 --> 00:36:07,074
new scientists, which they also own.

1291
00:36:07,524 --> 00:36:11,214
and then last week, literally a day
before it emerged that he was offering,

1292
00:36:11,454 --> 00:36:14,214
hundreds of billions of hands for the
Daily Telegraph Journalists at the

1293
00:36:14,214 --> 00:36:17,484
Metro were told that an awful lot of
them were also at risk of redundancy

1294
00:36:17,484 --> 00:36:20,604
because they need to make massive
cost savings, across the board.

1295
00:36:20,994 --> 00:36:23,712
, again, those cost savings
probably still not quite enough

1296
00:36:23,754 --> 00:36:25,014
to raise that 500 million we're

1297
00:36:25,029 --> 00:36:25,299
Helen: talking

1298
00:36:25,299 --> 00:36:25,509
about.

1299
00:36:25,509 --> 00:36:25,659
Here

1300
00:36:26,109 --> 00:36:27,639
is the idea to try

1301
00:36:27,654 --> 00:36:28,584
Adam: and create

1302
00:36:29,469 --> 00:36:31,119
Helen: another massive media

1303
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:31,839
block in the

1304
00:36:31,839 --> 00:36:33,279
style of Rupert Murdoch's,

1305
00:36:34,749 --> 00:36:35,799
Adam: Times Sun,

1306
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:36,619
formally News of the

1307
00:36:36,619 --> 00:36:36,684
world.

1308
00:36:37,004 --> 00:36:38,139
This is the fascinating thing

1309
00:36:38,169 --> 00:36:38,619
actually.

1310
00:36:38,859 --> 00:36:41,589
It's gonna be much, much bigger than
anything Rupert Murdoch has ever owned.

1311
00:36:41,889 --> 00:36:46,419
Rupert Murdoch, was enormous first back in
the eighties when he took over the times.

1312
00:36:46,899 --> 00:36:49,359
and it was involved the Monopolies and
Mergers Commission as them because he was

1313
00:36:49,359 --> 00:36:53,799
gonna be taking over two, major, daily
newspapers and three Sunday newspapers.

1314
00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:56,559
This will bring together, when we've
just mentioned them, it's, gonna

1315
00:36:56,559 --> 00:37:00,099
be four separate daily newspapers
and a couple of Sundays as well.

1316
00:37:00,099 --> 00:37:02,919
So it in terms of a block and
in terms of circulation as well,

1317
00:37:02,919 --> 00:37:04,129
Prescott has done some calculations.

1318
00:37:04,869 --> 00:37:08,679
they're gonna be a million ahead of
Murdoch's titles in terms of circulation,

1319
00:37:09,219 --> 00:37:10,389
combined circulation of everything.

1320
00:37:10,419 --> 00:37:12,639
If this deal goes through And the
mail group take over The Telegraph,

1321
00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:15,519
and keep all of the titles they've
got at the moment, 2.5 million copies

1322
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:16,659
a day, they're gonna be selling.

1323
00:37:17,229 --> 00:37:17,769
The other thing.

1324
00:37:17,769 --> 00:37:22,149
that's changed enormously is of course,
is Paper circulation is a very different

1325
00:37:22,149 --> 00:37:23,589
beast now to what it was in the 1980s.

1326
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:28,269
These are all essentially digital,
operations, their websites and the

1327
00:37:28,269 --> 00:37:29,559
lot of 'em are international facing.

1328
00:37:29,859 --> 00:37:32,979
And Rod Me said specifically that
the Telegraph, that's the bit he

1329
00:37:32,979 --> 00:37:34,299
sees as ripe for exploitation.

1330
00:37:34,299 --> 00:37:37,119
They're gonna turn it into very
much an American facing thing.

1331
00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:39,999
They think there's a big market out
there for a slightly classier than

1332
00:37:39,999 --> 00:37:41,979
Fox News, kind of broad sheety type,

1333
00:37:42,429 --> 00:37:42,699
but

1334
00:37:42,969 --> 00:37:45,669
very, right wing coverage,
which is what is, the direction

1335
00:37:45,669 --> 00:37:46,419
the mail is moving in?

1336
00:37:46,419 --> 00:37:47,829
It's quite maga at the moment

1337
00:37:47,844 --> 00:37:48,024
Helen: under

1338
00:37:48,024 --> 00:37:48,234
Chris.

1339
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:51,549
but the telegraphs the sort of a,
b, c one version of that, isn't it?

1340
00:37:51,549 --> 00:37:53,349
That's the kind of heritage foundation

1341
00:37:53,589 --> 00:37:58,149
for the elites, for the kind of the,
the Telegraph always used to be known

1342
00:37:58,149 --> 00:38:01,689
as the paper for the sort of retired
kernel in the Shires, and those people

1343
00:38:01,689 --> 00:38:03,819
in the American context now are maga.

1344
00:38:04,149 --> 00:38:09,069
Whereas the American male is still
pursuing, it's it's very strongly aimed

1345
00:38:09,069 --> 00:38:10,659
at like middle, particularly lower middle

1346
00:38:10,674 --> 00:38:10,884
Adam: class

1347
00:38:10,884 --> 00:38:12,024
women, It's very, yeah.

1348
00:38:12,594 --> 00:38:15,744
I think they'd see their competition
as being things like, people Magazine

1349
00:38:15,744 --> 00:38:16,434
and Us Weekly.

1350
00:38:16,434 --> 00:38:19,584
they're much more kind of
celeb focused, on, on, on their

1351
00:38:19,584 --> 00:38:20,544
American kind of facing stuff.

1352
00:38:20,664 --> 00:38:20,814
So

1353
00:38:20,814 --> 00:38:23,244
I think they've got any sense,
and certainly Ron is talking about

1354
00:38:23,244 --> 00:38:26,214
keeping them as two, two very separate
and distinct businesses, although

1355
00:38:26,214 --> 00:38:29,754
obviously there will be those,
combinations to be done on, on, on,

1356
00:38:29,754 --> 00:38:32,514
staffing between the two of them
politically, they're coming from a, sort

1357
00:38:32,529 --> 00:38:34,089
Helen: of similar sort of area.

1358
00:38:34,554 --> 00:38:34,614
Andy: I

1359
00:38:34,614 --> 00:38:35,124
just check?

1360
00:38:35,394 --> 00:38:35,934
Is

1361
00:38:36,669 --> 00:38:37,749
Helen: Sir Herbert gusset

1362
00:38:37,779 --> 00:38:38,379
now Maga,

1363
00:38:40,389 --> 00:38:42,099
If he's retired, Colonel

1364
00:38:42,129 --> 00:38:45,369
Herbert Gusset, fifth Platoon
of the whatevers then Yeah.

1365
00:38:45,369 --> 00:38:47,769
he's got a massive American
flag in his driveway.

1366
00:38:47,829 --> 00:38:51,789
He's in an SUV, he's in the
gusset wagon, which does about

1367
00:38:51,954 --> 00:38:52,164
Adam: two

1368
00:38:52,164 --> 00:38:52,494
miles

1369
00:38:52,494 --> 00:38:52,584
to

1370
00:38:52,584 --> 00:38:52,674
the

1371
00:38:52,674 --> 00:38:53,064
gallon.

1372
00:38:53,454 --> 00:38:55,044
Oh, his grandchildren definitely
bought in one of those

1373
00:38:55,404 --> 00:38:58,584
red, mangar hats a few Christmases
ago and got him to pose for a selfie.

1374
00:38:58,584 --> 00:39:00,264
Wearing it backwards
awkwardly, didn't they?

1375
00:39:00,264 --> 00:39:00,954
Yeah.

1376
00:39:00,954 --> 00:39:00,964
Yeah.

1377
00:39:00,964 --> 00:39:01,299
That's so

1378
00:39:01,359 --> 00:39:01,579
sad

1379
00:39:01,804 --> 00:39:02,504
Helen: to love it.

1380
00:39:02,822 --> 00:39:05,627
Adam: of the sidebar of Shame
and the Telegraph website.

1381
00:39:05,687 --> 00:39:05,837
Yeah.

1382
00:39:06,287 --> 00:39:09,182
I don't think they're gonna
be doing than the economic

1383
00:39:09,402 --> 00:39:09,622
pba.

1384
00:39:09,952 --> 00:39:10,072
Andy: I

1385
00:39:10,767 --> 00:39:15,362
Helen: but presumably, when this was
first mooted, this merger, Lord Romy

1386
00:39:15,362 --> 00:39:18,482
wrote a piece in the Times, which
was a sort of weird thing to see that

1387
00:39:18,542 --> 00:39:18,992
happening.

1388
00:39:19,202 --> 00:39:19,352
or

1389
00:39:19,352 --> 00:39:19,472
was

1390
00:39:19,472 --> 00:39:19,862
interviewed

1391
00:39:19,862 --> 00:39:20,042
in the

1392
00:39:20,042 --> 00:39:22,772
Times saying, essentially his argument

1393
00:39:22,772 --> 00:39:26,192
was thing, no one reads newspapers
anymore, so it's fine if I own loads

1394
00:39:26,237 --> 00:39:26,327
Adam: of

1395
00:39:26,327 --> 00:39:26,507
them.

1396
00:39:26,747 --> 00:39:27,137
I think that

1397
00:39:27,137 --> 00:39:27,317
was

1398
00:39:27,317 --> 00:39:29,747
in fact, we've got a strange situation
where the telegraph is saying,

1399
00:39:29,747 --> 00:39:31,637
we're not worth all this money,
And the man who wants to buy 'em

1400
00:39:31,637 --> 00:39:32,627
is saying, oh, no one's interested

1401
00:39:32,642 --> 00:39:32,702
Helen: in

1402
00:39:32,702 --> 00:39:33,302
newspapers

1403
00:39:33,302 --> 00:39:33,512
anymore.

1404
00:39:33,812 --> 00:39:35,942
But essentially the argument was
like, but people are getting their

1405
00:39:35,942 --> 00:39:37,292
news from a really wide range of

1406
00:39:37,292 --> 00:39:39,272
sources like TikTok and social media.

1407
00:39:39,512 --> 00:39:42,962
So although this looks like it's
edging close, not to a monopoly,

1408
00:39:42,962 --> 00:39:45,992
but certainly to a huge
market share, it isn't really.

1409
00:39:46,022 --> 00:39:48,542
But those things are not
quite market in the same way.

1410
00:39:48,812 --> 00:39:51,062
That's the thing is
taken up with Lord Romy.

1411
00:39:51,602 --> 00:39:53,477
Adam: it's likely that Lisa and
Andy, the Secretary of State, for

1412
00:39:53,477 --> 00:39:57,077
cultural media and sport is gonna
intervene in this one And probably.

1413
00:39:57,932 --> 00:39:58,682
Helen: as happened with,

1414
00:39:58,832 --> 00:40:01,952
Adam: the last big takeover we had
was when Trinity Mirror took over the

1415
00:40:01,952 --> 00:40:04,622
express titles to create reach, PLC.

1416
00:40:05,762 --> 00:40:08,582
and she ordered, investigations
by the competition and markets

1417
00:40:08,582 --> 00:40:10,052
authority and ofcom into that.

1418
00:40:10,202 --> 00:40:11,552
and then the effect that
would have on the market.

1419
00:40:11,552 --> 00:40:12,242
That was way through.

1420
00:40:12,242 --> 00:40:13,862
Again, that was an enormous
share of the market.

1421
00:40:14,132 --> 00:40:14,582
That was way

1422
00:40:14,582 --> 00:40:17,192
through, partly because those
papers were at the opposite

1423
00:40:17,192 --> 00:40:18,242
end of the political spectrum.

1424
00:40:18,272 --> 00:40:21,662
Daily mirror, traditionally labor
supporting, express, traditionally very

1425
00:40:21,962 --> 00:40:23,582
traditionally old school conservative

1426
00:40:24,662 --> 00:40:27,242
hasn't really carried on that way, given
that they're sharing enormous numbers

1427
00:40:27,242 --> 00:40:31,532
of their pages now and have been shunted
together, in a way that, is not working

1428
00:40:31,532 --> 00:40:32,792
out brilliantly for all the journalists.

1429
00:40:32,792 --> 00:40:33,632
that reach BRC.

1430
00:40:34,142 --> 00:40:34,742
Very definitely.

1431
00:40:34,832 --> 00:40:35,012
There's

1432
00:40:35,012 --> 00:40:37,232
very few newspapers that
are particularly happy ships

1433
00:40:37,232 --> 00:40:38,312
at the moment, but, certainly the

1434
00:40:38,312 --> 00:40:40,862
ones owned by reach PLC are particularly,

1435
00:40:41,102 --> 00:40:41,672
unhappy

1436
00:40:41,702 --> 00:40:42,212
Helen: and slightly Quaye.

1437
00:40:42,367 --> 00:40:42,647
Saba: Quaye

1438
00:40:42,812 --> 00:40:43,352
Adam: at the moment.

1439
00:40:43,592 --> 00:40:46,562
Helen: That said, though, it is a good
sign about the healthiness of our press

1440
00:40:46,562 --> 00:40:50,162
and democracy that Lisa Nandy will refer
this to a kind of arms length thing.

1441
00:40:50,432 --> 00:40:51,332
Whereas if you think about

1442
00:40:51,332 --> 00:40:54,482
we've talked about this in the last pod,
one of the things that Donald Trump has

1443
00:40:54,482 --> 00:40:57,572
absolutely done is just blocked media
mergers that he doesn't like because

1444
00:40:57,572 --> 00:40:59,132
they've been mean to him personally.

1445
00:40:59,492 --> 00:41:02,522
So if this were America, Lisa
Nandy would be going, I think

1446
00:41:02,522 --> 00:41:05,462
we could hate to stand to hear a
few nice things about Lisa Nandy,

1447
00:41:05,552 --> 00:41:06,482
the Telegraph,

1448
00:41:06,572 --> 00:41:06,962
if you'd

1449
00:41:06,962 --> 00:41:07,322
like to get

1450
00:41:07,337 --> 00:41:08,147
Adam: approval for this.

1451
00:41:09,047 --> 00:41:11,957
Couple of things, just to add to that,
the, we've talked about how most,

1452
00:41:12,257 --> 00:41:14,657
readership as migrated online and the
difficulties of measuring that, which

1453
00:41:14,657 --> 00:41:16,397
is something that Lisa and Andy's
gonna have to get her hair read.

1454
00:41:17,252 --> 00:41:20,432
In terms of profits, an enormous
amount of it still comes from sales

1455
00:41:20,432 --> 00:41:22,412
of paper, copies of newspapers.

1456
00:41:22,442 --> 00:41:24,992
It's something like 75%
of the reach titles.

1457
00:41:24,992 --> 00:41:25,592
I think it's up there.

1458
00:41:25,892 --> 00:41:26,822
The Telegraph, I think it's something like

1459
00:41:26,822 --> 00:41:29,432
80%. it's enormous amount
of money still come.

1460
00:41:29,702 --> 00:41:32,702
they're quite expensive now, newspapers,
and you've got a kind of loyal readership

1461
00:41:32,702 --> 00:41:33,512
who are getting them delivered to

1462
00:41:33,512 --> 00:41:34,742
their door every day still.

1463
00:41:35,342 --> 00:41:36,542
they are an older readership.

1464
00:41:36,602 --> 00:41:39,902
They are, sadly, the, nature of
mortality means they're not gonna

1465
00:41:39,902 --> 00:41:40,712
be around for all that much longer.

1466
00:41:40,712 --> 00:41:42,962
So that is always going down, but that
is certainly what brings the money

1467
00:41:42,962 --> 00:41:46,892
in much, much more than any online
advertising in this country has ever done.

1468
00:41:47,132 --> 00:41:49,412
One of the reasons everyone is
keen on exploiting an American

1469
00:41:49,412 --> 00:41:53,852
market for British newspapers, and
all of them now have, certainly

1470
00:41:53,852 --> 00:41:57,577
all of the tabloids have launched
specific US facing websites, which are

1471
00:41:58,022 --> 00:41:59,672
separate operations to the British ones,

1472
00:42:00,362 --> 00:42:01,382
is that in

1473
00:42:01,382 --> 00:42:04,562
America there's some valuable
advertising out there which people

1474
00:42:04,562 --> 00:42:08,402
are willing to put on, on, on
newspaper and magazine websites.

1475
00:42:08,612 --> 00:42:10,652
you can actually make some money
off online advertising I hate, which

1476
00:42:10,652 --> 00:42:12,272
is a thing that no one has ever,

1477
00:42:12,272 --> 00:42:12,512
found a

1478
00:42:12,527 --> 00:42:12,737
Helen: way of

1479
00:42:12,737 --> 00:42:13,727
making work ever here.

1480
00:42:13,929 --> 00:42:14,109
It

1481
00:42:14,109 --> 00:42:14,289
is

1482
00:42:14,289 --> 00:42:14,649
also

1483
00:42:14,649 --> 00:42:14,739
the

1484
00:42:14,739 --> 00:42:14,979
case,

1485
00:42:14,979 --> 00:42:15,309
isn't it?

1486
00:42:15,309 --> 00:42:15,459
Adam: That

1487
00:42:15,459 --> 00:42:16,149
quite a lot of

1488
00:42:16,149 --> 00:42:16,719
Helen: people

1489
00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:17,409
in the

1490
00:42:17,409 --> 00:42:17,889
states

1491
00:42:17,919 --> 00:42:18,219
like

1492
00:42:18,219 --> 00:42:18,609
reading

1493
00:42:18,609 --> 00:42:19,119
about

1494
00:42:19,389 --> 00:42:21,759
Adam: rainy porridge Island, I think

1495
00:42:21,759 --> 00:42:21,969
that's a,

1496
00:42:22,299 --> 00:42:22,809
they like that.

1497
00:42:22,809 --> 00:42:24,339
and They like reading about doing that.

1498
00:42:24,339 --> 00:42:26,409
The hellhole that is London or
Birmingham and how we're all

1499
00:42:26,409 --> 00:42:27,729
living under Schreyer law as well.

1500
00:42:27,729 --> 00:42:30,819
There is a big cell, You know how
awful the old country has become?

1501
00:42:30,819 --> 00:42:31,839
and How terribly things are

1502
00:42:31,839 --> 00:42:32,109
going.

1503
00:42:32,109 --> 00:42:33,189
Still the rest of us after Dubai,

1504
00:42:33,374 --> 00:42:33,494
Helen: we?

1505
00:42:33,934 --> 00:42:34,174
absolutely

1506
00:42:34,174 --> 00:42:34,494
we are.

1507
00:42:34,659 --> 00:42:34,839
Yeah.

1508
00:42:34,869 --> 00:42:38,139
I'm really, you can't overstate
that, that there is a kind of

1509
00:42:38,409 --> 00:42:38,769
weird

1510
00:42:38,769 --> 00:42:41,499
place for Britain and the
American, like American Maga

1511
00:42:41,499 --> 00:42:42,459
Wright imagination.

1512
00:42:43,149 --> 00:42:46,119
to the extent that Elon Musk described
us as being like the hobbits in the

1513
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:49,179
Shire and we're like, and
therefore we didn't realize that

1514
00:42:49,179 --> 00:42:51,249
the, like the Arks were coming and

1515
00:42:51,579 --> 00:42:52,869
Sarai was coming, Yeah.

1516
00:42:52,899 --> 00:42:55,959
And they need to be defended by the
men of Gondor, which I think is him

1517
00:42:57,354 --> 00:42:57,504
Adam: With

1518
00:42:57,519 --> 00:42:58,089
Helen: Tesla.

1519
00:42:58,149 --> 00:42:58,359
With

1520
00:42:58,464 --> 00:43:00,744
Adam: Oh, he wishes he
was aor, doesn't he?

1521
00:43:00,744 --> 00:43:00,804
Yeah.

1522
00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:02,139
Helen: he's barely

1523
00:43:02,184 --> 00:43:03,444
Adam: Gimli man in charge of

1524
00:43:03,459 --> 00:43:04,389
Helen: Army of trolls.

1525
00:43:04,389 --> 00:43:04,449
Yeah.

1526
00:43:04,679 --> 00:43:04,959
Adam: Yeah.

1527
00:43:06,939 --> 00:43:07,629
Helen: Meets back on

1528
00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:08,319
Adam: the menu last.

1529
00:43:08,319 --> 00:43:08,639
Sorry.

1530
00:43:09,299 --> 00:43:12,204
And the other thing I
would just say is that, the

1531
00:43:12,204 --> 00:43:15,384
future does seem to be these
larger and larger media groups

1532
00:43:15,384 --> 00:43:16,524
and these huge use takeovers.

1533
00:43:16,704 --> 00:43:19,824
even to come back to Rupert Murdoch,
he realized a few years ago that with

1534
00:43:19,824 --> 00:43:21,564
Fox and Sky, he was just not at the

1535
00:43:21,564 --> 00:43:23,364
sort of scale where he could compete with

1536
00:43:23,364 --> 00:43:25,224
the really big streamers
and the really big studios.

1537
00:43:25,764 --> 00:43:29,364
Fox was, sold onto Disney, sky to Comcast.

1538
00:43:29,664 --> 00:43:33,384
Now we've got, sky as part of
Comcast looking at buying up ITV

1539
00:43:33,384 --> 00:43:34,524
that the broadcast side of thing.

1540
00:43:34,524 --> 00:43:37,584
So I think the future seems to be in
everything getting bigger and bigger

1541
00:43:37,584 --> 00:43:40,434
in order to compete with, those
tech giants like, kind of Facebook

1542
00:43:40,434 --> 00:43:41,574
and Google and people like that.

1543
00:43:41,574 --> 00:43:44,334
So we're gonna see a lot more,
I think, of these, this kind of

1544
00:43:44,334 --> 00:43:46,134
like consolidation and growth

1545
00:43:46,494 --> 00:43:47,364
of, media

1546
00:43:47,394 --> 00:43:47,694
Helen: brands

1547
00:43:47,694 --> 00:43:48,204
going on.

1548
00:43:48,774 --> 00:43:50,364
I for one, I'm just hugely relieved that.

1549
00:43:50,364 --> 00:43:51,414
the telegraph's gonna be owned by

1550
00:43:51,414 --> 00:43:52,564
Adam: someone, at least at Viant level

1551
00:43:53,274 --> 00:43:53,784
Helen: because that

1552
00:43:53,784 --> 00:43:54,444
feels like

1553
00:43:54,714 --> 00:43:54,774
a

1554
00:43:54,774 --> 00:43:55,014
sort

1555
00:43:55,014 --> 00:43:55,164
of, you

1556
00:43:55,284 --> 00:43:55,434
Adam: you're

1557
00:43:55,909 --> 00:43:56,189
Helen: by that

1558
00:43:56,209 --> 00:43:56,429
it

1559
00:43:57,009 --> 00:43:57,469
at a settled

1560
00:43:57,519 --> 00:43:58,239
Adam: feels right, doesn't it?

1561
00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:58,399
Yeah.

1562
00:43:58,689 --> 00:43:59,989
Helen: but I'm reassured.

1563
00:44:01,637 --> 00:44:01,877
okay.

1564
00:44:01,877 --> 00:44:02,057
That's

1565
00:44:02,057 --> 00:44:03,407
it for this episode of page 94.

1566
00:44:03,407 --> 00:44:04,967
Thank you so much for listening.

1567
00:44:05,207 --> 00:44:06,347
Thank you to Adam, Helen

1568
00:44:06,347 --> 00:44:06,737
and Saba.

1569
00:44:06,737 --> 00:44:06,857
If

1570
00:44:06,857 --> 00:44:06,977
you

1571
00:44:06,977 --> 00:44:07,127
would

1572
00:44:07,127 --> 00:44:07,367
like

1573
00:44:07,367 --> 00:44:07,877
more

1574
00:44:08,027 --> 00:44:08,717
private eye in

1575
00:44:08,717 --> 00:44:09,197
your life,

1576
00:44:09,407 --> 00:44:09,707
the thing

1577
00:44:09,707 --> 00:44:10,157
to do is

1578
00:44:10,157 --> 00:44:10,487
go to your

1579
00:44:10,487 --> 00:44:11,057
local news

1580
00:44:11,057 --> 00:44:11,387
agent

1581
00:44:11,507 --> 00:44:11,717
or

1582
00:44:11,717 --> 00:44:12,227
TG

1583
00:44:12,447 --> 00:44:12,887
Adam: Jones,

1584
00:44:13,127 --> 00:44:13,307
just

1585
00:44:13,307 --> 00:44:13,397
so

1586
00:44:13,397 --> 00:44:13,487
I

1587
00:44:13,487 --> 00:44:13,667
Helen: give

1588
00:44:13,667 --> 00:44:13,787
them

1589
00:44:13,787 --> 00:44:13,847
a

1590
00:44:13,847 --> 00:44:14,027
little

1591
00:44:14,027 --> 00:44:14,477
show of hand

1592
00:44:14,837 --> 00:44:15,047
and

1593
00:44:15,047 --> 00:44:15,527
buy a

1594
00:44:15,527 --> 00:44:16,037
copy.

1595
00:44:16,397 --> 00:44:16,577
if

1596
00:44:16,577 --> 00:44:18,317
you want, find out even
more, you can get a private

1597
00:44:18,317 --> 00:44:20,597
life nine.co uk and get yourself a

1598
00:44:20,597 --> 00:44:21,257
subscription.

1599
00:44:21,407 --> 00:44:21,707
What a

1600
00:44:21,707 --> 00:44:21,977
Adam: good

1601
00:44:21,977 --> 00:44:22,427
Christmas

1602
00:44:22,427 --> 00:44:22,727
present

1603
00:44:22,727 --> 00:44:22,817
it

1604
00:44:22,817 --> 00:44:23,087
Helen: would make

1605
00:44:23,087 --> 00:44:23,207
for

1606
00:44:23,207 --> 00:44:23,477
someone

1607
00:44:23,477 --> 00:44:23,657
in your

1608
00:44:23,657 --> 00:44:24,077
life,

1609
00:44:24,152 --> 00:44:25,187
or even the annual

1610
00:44:25,187 --> 00:44:25,247
are

1611
00:44:25,247 --> 00:44:25,547
Adam: here.

1612
00:44:25,637 --> 00:44:26,747
Oh, what a

1613
00:44:26,747 --> 00:44:26,927
good

1614
00:44:27,027 --> 00:44:27,167
idea.

1615
00:44:27,167 --> 00:44:27,707
If you have

1616
00:44:27,707 --> 00:44:29,687
two friends in your life, that's all your

1617
00:44:29,687 --> 00:44:30,047
Christmas

1618
00:44:30,047 --> 00:44:30,407
Helen: problems

1619
00:44:30,407 --> 00:44:30,707
sorted.

1620
00:44:30,707 --> 00:44:31,667
Isn't it easy?

1621
00:44:31,877 --> 00:44:32,387
Brilliant.

1622
00:44:32,627 --> 00:44:32,777
we'll

1623
00:44:32,777 --> 00:44:32,867
be

1624
00:44:32,867 --> 00:44:33,047
back

1625
00:44:33,047 --> 00:44:33,257
again

1626
00:44:33,257 --> 00:44:33,267
in

1627
00:44:33,347 --> 00:44:33,377
Adam: a

1628
00:44:33,377 --> 00:44:33,737
fortnight

1629
00:44:33,737 --> 00:44:33,887
Helen: with

1630
00:44:33,887 --> 00:44:34,247
another

1631
00:44:34,247 --> 00:44:34,697
of these.

1632
00:44:34,712 --> 00:44:34,802
And

1633
00:44:35,852 --> 00:44:36,272
the only

1634
00:44:36,272 --> 00:44:36,812
remaining Thanks.

1635
00:44:36,812 --> 00:44:38,972
I'll do Matt Hill of
Rethink Audio for producing.

1636
00:44:39,092 --> 00:44:39,362
Bye for

1637
00:44:39,377 --> 00:44:39,557
Adam: now.