>> Julia: Welcome to Things I Wish I Knew, the podcast from

Thinking Faith, a work of the Jesuits in Britain.

I'm Julia. I'm in my early 30s and I used to live

in a Jesuit young adult community. We all live

hectic lives and often don't get time to reflect

on what's happening both to us and around us. This

podcast is meant to help you to take a moment to

stop and think about where you are, where you're

going, and where your relationship with God fits

into it all. Every week, I meet a new guest who

tells me about something they experienced which

changed their life forever. By talking about the

things they wish they'd known, we'll explore the

idea that God is in all things. And we'll talk

about the part that faith plays in navigating

life's challenges. This week, we're continuing the

conversation with Lauren. Last time, Lauren shared

about her experience of addiction and her journey

to sobriety. Today, she explains how addiction can

happen to anyone.

I think I want to go back to the question I asked

earlier. We live in a society, and I know you said

earlier we change, this changing, and it's less

about drinking, but I, want to ask how challenging

is it to be sober in a culture where there's that

kind of encouragement of drinking?

>> Lauren: Yeah, it is challenging, but I've got a really

solid group of friends and I explain what I need

quite clearly. So, for example, if I say I'm

leaving, like a party or, you know, something,

with the, we're clear. They never do that whole,

oh, no, just stay for another half hour, whatever,

you know, which is always comes from a nice place.

They want your company. Right. I've said that is

not helpful for me. And they don't do that. They

just, okay, let me know when you're home safe, and

that's it. And little things like that, little

changes like that just allow me to socialise in a

way that takes the pressure off me. I often, if

I'm socialising, I'd say that there's three phases

to a night and I enjoy phase two only. And I leave

before, you know, anything else. So if I'm like at

a work Christmas do or, you know, something like

that, you really never know. You know, how messy

these things are gonna get. The first phase of the

night where you kind of end up, is all a bit

awkward and you're sort of pinned into sort of

conversation and you can't really move very well.

>> Julia: And I really hate that phase.

>> Lauren: That's the worst bit, isn't it, it's like no one's

really loosened up yet. Then there's a second bit

where people have kind of eased into it who drink,

have maybe had one or two drinks, but actually

there's really fun conversations, people are

laughing, maybe even a bit of dancing, whatever.

And then there's a third bit and that's where you

know, someone's gotten a bit sloppy. Someone said

they just love you. I can't believe you're doing

this without drinking. You're amazing. I'm gone

before that bit. You know.

>> Julia: That is good advice.

>> Lauren: I'm a phase two partier. only I turn up one hour

after the invite says and I am gone before

midnight because I don't. I like my sleep and I

like the rest. But actually, you know, no, I'm 37

now. So the sort of makeup of socialising, it's

far more dinner parties than nightclubs these

days. So actually it is a bit more manageable. And

most people know that I don't drink. So there's

often like an alcohol free option available. but

sometimes, sometimes it can be a little

uncomfortable. It depends.

>> Julia: I was just thinking about the alcohol free. I

think we've also got a lot more wide range of

alcohol free these days. Where I think it used to

be like you can have orange juice or water.

>> Lauren: Yeah, yeah, totally. And the alcohol free options,

Shloer. Christians love Shloer It's absolutely

everywhere. but often they're really sweet and

sugary and sometimes you don't really fancy that.

So then your option is water. Whereas these days

there are a few more options which like kind of

like grown up soft drinks which don't quite have

the same amount of sugar or like a really nice

flavoured water or something. So yeah, that's fun.

There's more to play with. It's not just like,

like you say orange juice or a can of Coke.

>> Julia: In my mid-20s I was reading an article that was

talking about addiction and how we've all probably

got a tendency to be addicted to something.

>> Lauren: Yeah.

>> Julia: And it was saying about, if you can't give up

alcohol for six months then you need to think that

you might have a problem. And so I like, I'm not

saying this is the right thing to do but at that

stage I was like thinking about it to myself. So I

was like, oh, I can give up alcohol for six

months. And then I actually was like, but then

I've got this social event and then I've got that

social event and things. And then at that point I

was like, do you know what? I'm going to do it for

six months and just prove to myself that I don't

have an addiction.

>> Lauren: Yeah.

>> Julia: So then how do you know if you do or don't have an

addiction?

>> Lauren: Yeah, that's interesting. I do often hear people

say, like, oh, I've done dry January. So, you

know, I've done a whole month. I'm obviously in a

really good place with alcohol, therefore, I

totally disagree. You know, I don't think that

that's really a good metric of anything. I think

measure is, is probably not a good measure. When

you, when you scale it up from one month to six

months, you are getting there. You know, when I

have people come to me and they have got a number

of signs that I would consider to, to indicate

that they're drinking in a, in a problematic way,

that suggests that they could be addicted to

alcohol, I'll say, do a year. I'm like, do a full

year from now and let me know how you get on. And

that's also what sort of the literature around

Alcoholics Anonymous would suggest. Like, just

give it a year, and, and notice yourself and see

how you're doing. I, still would say that using

one measure isn't particularly helpful if

somebody's concerned. There's a test online, it's

called an AUDIT test. A U D I T. I can't remember

what that stands for, but an audit test. And that

has got several questions, that looks at all the

different elements of your drinking in the way

that you consume alcohol, and then we'll give you

an indication. I think anyone who thinks they

might need to take it will probably be told that

they are drinking in a problematic way. I think,

you know, I think that deep down, you know, if

alcohol is causing problems for yourself, for your

relationship with your friends, with your family,

with God, with your community, with your work,

then it's a problem. If someone in your life has

suggested that alcohol is a problem that needs to

be taken seriously as well. I know, we can sort of

dismiss people they don't know. They're not here

the whole time. Actually, if someone who really

cares about you says, I'm worried doesn't mean

that you're drinking alcoholically, but it does

need to be taken seriously. I don't think people

do that lightly. I think if you're spending money

you don't have on it, if you're finding that

you're losing days, if you're finding that it is

becoming a barrier, if you're sitting at the

dinner table and you're looking at the one bottle

of wine in the middle of the table, and you're

thinking, that's not going to be enough. Where are

we going to get more alcohol from if it's

distracting from the time and the company? There

are questions to ask yourself around that, you

know, but I think that looking at all, all the

different questions together will help you build a

good picture. And to do that, I would suggest just

giving a Google to that AUDIT test and seeing how

many of those questions kind of raise a red flag

for you.

>> Julia: So since you've got sober you've done your degree

in neuroscience and your master's in addiction

studies, which I'm going to come back to, but it

kind of links to what you've just been saying.

For my next question, which is I once told

somebody or had an honest conversation where I

think they might have a problem with alcohol and

their. One of their parents did have. Does have a

problem with alcohol. And so then there was the

question, is, is it genetic or is it a personality

or some other trait? is. Is that more likely?

>> Lauren: Yeah, there's no question that addiction is

heritable. That is absolutely. No one, no one in

addiction research is still researching that

because it is so well established and agreed. And

it was in the 1970s. And it kind of blows my mind

that that hasn seeped out more. Some people seem

to know, but actually it's not common knowledge in

the public sphere in the way that it is in

addiction research. And it really surprises me. It

is 50% heritable. But it is important to note that

your genes are not your destiny. Right. But you

will have, or you may have a more of a

predisposition towards addiction if you're a

person who, who can see it in their family. Right.

And there's. There's conversations to be had by

people who are far better theologically trained

about sort of generational, sort of the handing

down of these things from generation duration in a

spiritual sense. And I, and I definitely think

that the praying and putting protective measures

in place and, breaking those kinds of ties,

there's spiritual work to be done there. But also,

you know, if you're just looking at the science

where obviously they don't talk about that kind of

stuff at all, if you're just looking at the

science, then genetically you can inherit genes

that make you, more vulnerable. and that is good

to be aware of because it means that you can put

more protective measures around yourself. And

basically, I mean, there's lots of research,

there's lots of science around, sort of the, the

things that will protect you. Going to church,

being an active part of a church community in

young adults is a protective measure. Not being in

a, in a family environment where drug and alcohol

use happens, where, you know, if you're in a

family environment, there's lots of arguing that

is, that's also, potentially damaging. Having a

peer group who use drugs is a big predictor of

later addiction. You know, ultimately, there are

lots of things that create a sort of unstable home

environment for you. this is in young people in

adolescence, that will. Could mean that you're

more predisposed to, to an addiction. And these

things compound as well because if you have a

family member who has got a genetic predisposition

to addiction and then starts drinking or using

drugs, of course they're creating an unsafe family

environment for you. So then you've got

potentially the genes as well as the unsafe family

environment. but I think, you know, it's when it,

it's when trauma and pain that is unprocessed,

unexpressed, and, and, and poorly understood,

meets, you know, potential genetics. But also

there are plenty of addicts who have no family

history of addiction. You know, it's not, it's not

a one size fits all situation. But there is that

element. Yes.

>> Julia: So going back to your own, your degree in your

masters

>> Lauren: Yeah.

>> Julia: Did you feel that God was using your experience to

lead you into supporting others?

>> Lauren: Yeah, for sure. So I, was maybe two, two years

sober when I set up a recovery, a Christian

recovery programme from, from my church in West

London. And that was for anyone who is struggling

with any kind of addiction. so we had a lot of

people come for sex and pornography addiction,

which we don't talk enough about, about as, as

Christians. I mean, we, we kind of talk about it a

bit, but we kind of focus on men. It's women too.

and we've got this weird sort of like ranking

hierarchy system where people kind of believe that

that involves more shame, which I completely

refute. It's just a different tool that people

have gone to. You know, fine, like I, you know,

anyone can end up with any addiction. You know,

it's not. There's no ranking system. And some

people, for some people, that's what. That's where

they found their comfort or they found their quick

fix. so there's some definite barriers for people

in that position to sort of seeking help because,

because of that sort of stigma which I think is,

is just so wrong. So we get those. We've got lots

of people who are struggling with that. We've got

lots of people, drug and alcohol, we've got people

who were struggling with food addiction, with

codependency, with love addiction, all kinds of

people coming through. And what I found was, I

understood the 12 step process very well and that

is steeped in Christian Christianity and biblical

wisdom and Jesus teachings, even if it's not

explicitly said these days. It was initially, but

it's not these days because it has to be open to

people regardless of their beliefs and totally,

totally see that. Um, but, so I'm very aware of

that, very aware of the stories I was hearing. I

could see patterns myself, but anecdotally and,

and, and through these connections and these

people I knew, but I just felt like if I'm going

to actually step up and help people, I've got to

understand this more, I've got to have a bit more

credibility. So that's when I went and did the

Masters at King's and learned more about the sort

of therapeutic response, about the way that drugs

work in our system, and a bit as well about the

sort of behavioural addictions. But it was mainly

based on the sort of chemistry of it.

>> Julia: So how do neuroscience and faith intersect in your

understanding of addiction?

>> Lauren: I mean, God created our brains, right? And I don't

think, certainly not in any of our lifetimes,

we're actually ever going to really understand the

interaction between mind and brain and thoughts

and chemistry. And it's like, it is just such a

spectacular thing. Like I, what I understand of

it, what people who've studied it for years and

years and years, their whole lifetime, more than

me, understand of it, is like the tiniest

fraction. But there are things that are really

quite spectacular, like, you know, in the Bible

and it talks about the renewing of your mind. And

we see that in science, we see that in

neuroscience, we see that, that you can create

these deep addiction pathways, this deep response

to these behaviours or substances in your brain.

But there is space for the renewal of your mind.

And God's built in, kind of like neural plasticity

is the sort of like the neuroscientific term for

it, where your brain operates based on what you

repeat. And he says, come back to me, pray, sit

with me, read the Bible, do these things. These

things are going to bring you peace. And that is

absolutely supported by the science, you know, so

what you choose, the choices you make, become the

way you think. Right? And the whole point, the.

reason why priests and your church leaders, they

want you to exercise that discipline is they know

it is shaping your mind in a way that will protect

you and bring you closer to God. And it really,

really will, y'know.

>> Julia: So, earlier you spoke, when you first got sober of

just making it through the day. And I spend quite

a bit of my time now talking about going on silent

retreats, because I love a silent retreat. And,

the first time I did it, I wasn't ready for, like.

Well, I was, but I was kind of that person. Like,

I don't want to sit in silence. How am I going to

do eight days? That. Well, six days? And that

actually wasn't my problem. And, it's now quite

often the problem that people bring up to me is

like, but how do you deal with not having your

phone? And I Remember on the six day retreat, I

had a piece of paper where I put a mark on each

day when I got through the end of the day of not

turning my phone on because. And I think that must

be quite a common addiction now that we will have,

like smartphones as well.

>> Lauren: Yeah, I. Oh, my goodness, yes. Um, if you want to

know what it feels like for an addict who wants

their drug of choice, leave your phone at home.

And every time you touch your pocket. That is an

indication of the physical pain that an addict is

in each time. And my goodness, do we all relate to

that. We are, you know, like you were saying

earlier, we are built to worship. Right? We are

built to adore, we are built to idolise. But

there's one place where that is supposed to be

directed. That is Jesus. That is God. Right. but

when you misdirect your attention, your adoration,

you know, that's in that idolatry space. Right. I

think right at the top of that scale of idolatry

is addiction, where it's completely out of

control. But then there's the notches in between.

Say it's on a scale of 1 to 10. If I asked you to

get, you know, draw that scale out on a piece of

paper and I'm like, right, money. Where's your

relationship with money? Is Jesus fully on the

throne? You are happy to give away, you know, all

of that kind of stuff? Or actually, is there a

little part of you that's still like, oh, can I

trust you with this? Alcohol, your relationship

with food, your relationship with people around

you, your relationship with your phone? I think

very few People would, in all faith, be able to

put lower than a seven on the relationship with

their phone. I know, it's grim.

>> Julia: I know, I know. I'm thinking I would have gone for

a five.

>> Lauren: You would have been a five?

>> Julia: No, no, no, I'm saying, like, actually no ignore

that. I realised my brain hadn't processed what

you meant. You're right. Seven. Seven.

>> Lauren: I think somewhere between seven and ten. For

phones pretty much universally, what we have in

our pocket is a weapon formed against us to

distract us from all that is good. And you can use

it for good things. You know, I've got my Bible

verse memorising app, which is so helpful. And

actually the gamification of that does, you know,

play into how I work best. And it means that I can

recite verses like never before. Because this app

is, like, designed. It's almost like the Bible

candy crush, like, giving me little rewards every

time I remember a verse. You know, you can find

good uses for it and there are amazing, you know,

resources that can go on your phone, but actually,

you know, it's only.

>> Julia: Adding to the use of your phone, which only adds

to the addiction they had.

>> Lauren: They, did a study with. With students and found

that, like, they were. I can't. I can't remember

the exact figures, but infinitely more likely to

pass a test if they worked with books and notepads

and pens than if they worked on a screen. You just

take things in so much more. So, yeah, lots of

churches now are really encouraging people to

bring their physical Bible back and not just grab

their phone to pull out the verse, you know,

during the service or whatever.

>> Julia: I. I found that when I was doing my masters that I

needed to print stuff off to, like, take it in.

Yeah, I can never read it on a screen.

>> Lauren: Yeah.

>> Julia: So are there any common misconceptions that, like,

frustrate you?

>> Lauren: There's an idea that an alcoholic is somebody

who's, like, on a park bench, rough sleeping,

hasn't shaved, smells terrible, got their brown

bag of booze, you know, and actually alcohol

addiction. But any addiction can affect anyone.

They can be incredibly well presented. They can be

wealthy, they can be. You know, it just. It just

makes no difference. It is. It's the great

leveller. You know, religion, race, culture, it

doesn't matter. We. We are. We can find it so easy

to slip into these patterns and sometimes, you

know, you're sort of just up that scale of

idolatry and you need to regroup and sometimes

it's absolutely out of control and I think that

people discount themselves and think like, well, I

can't be an addict. I've got this, this and this.

And really, like, really. I think that there's a

bit of a humility piece, like how easily it could

be you, and how. And how much care people. People

need. People shouldn't be dismissed, maybe because

it doesn't look like what you think. And actually,

you know, research suggests that one in 10 of us

are struggling with an addiction. So, you know, if

you go to a church with 100 people, there'll be 10

people there who are really battling something,

you know.

>> Julia: So what piece of advice would you give to someone

who's praying through about quitting?

>> Lauren: I think if something is really taking over that

much of your attention and that much of your time,

your money, your headspace, your relational space,

that you could be giving in good, positive places,

then you could give up one thing in exchange for

everything. And I have never. I've found it hard,

but there is not a moment where I regret making

that decision. It is. It is the proudest thing I

ever did in my life. And I don't live in shame

anymore. I don't live dreading challenge or

questions or wondering what lie I've told and how

to cover it up. I don't sit in church and think

like, oh, you know, that's for me. You know,

obviously I do. There are still things that are

for me, but not to that sort of deep. Like I'm.

I'm just so getting this wrong. You know, I get to

be proud of myself. I'm asked to be godparent to

people's children. I see the change that my storey

has in other people and I get to do that, and I

get to do that with God. And I think if you're

wondering about starting on that journey,

absolutely do it. Even if actually what you're

working with isn't an alcohol addiction, but just

sometimes it gets a bit problematic, your life

will not be better with it, you know, like, it

just won't. I'd so encourage you to take that

step. And I think particularly if you are dealing

with an addiction, you cannot do that on your own.

Reaching out, finding a support group, an

anonymous fellowship or a charity or something

where somebody understands what it is to go

through that and can and can be a support and to

have those conversations, I. I think asking for

help is the most powerful thing you can do.

>> Julia: So what do you wish you knew about sobriety and

addiction?

>> Lauren: I wish I knew that it's not just weakness And I

think when I was younger, you know, some, I had a

friend who really struggled with depression and I

remember thinking like, oh, just get over it.

Like, you've got, you've got both your parents.

Like, hey, they were separated, they were

divorced, but they loved her, they were super

present. She had a lovely house, you know, nice

food, she went to a nice school, she had friends.

It was like, come on, like, what's the big deal?

And then when it came to addicts, I would see

someone who was struggling and messing everything

up and I'd just be like, just stop, just pull it

together, just stop. And I wish I had understood

that. Whilst I completely acknowledge I'm the

person who made the decision to take cocaine the

first time I took it, right? And like, no one

forced that on me and there may be instances where

things are forced on people, but for me, no, I

made that choice and that is on me. But actually

by the time I realised how important it was to

make the right choice, my ability to do so was

gone. And I just didn't understand the absolute

desperation and lack of self control that comes

from addiction. And I've had people come to me

whose parents have died from addiction and they've

said, like, why couldn't he or she just choose me?

Why was it that rather than being my mom or dad,

they chose to keep taking drugs and now they're

gone and that is just not the choice that an

addict is facing. The choice that they're facing

is so, it's not that they go like, right, what do

I love most? Where am I going to invest? There's

no rationality about it. You are absolutely caged.

You're completely trapped, completely desperate

with vague understandings of the pain that you're

causing people around you, but actually just so

one track minded and the pain and desperation of

that is really quite extreme. And I didn't

understand that. I think that when people say

like, you know, or get it together or act as if

it's sort of a moral failing or a choice, while

there are elements of choice actually like these

people and I was just completely lost, and I wish

I'd understood that more and been more sympathetic

towards it before it happened to me.

>> Julia: So what are you grateful for?

>> Lauren: Gosh, do you know? I, obvious things like my faith

and jeez. And the fact that I understand, I

understand so much more about, about how to

healthily process things and how to be in a good

place and I've got amazing community and I feel

that through faith I've got purpose and identity

in a way that I didn't understand for. And I'm

super grateful for that. I'm super grateful for,

for sobriety. But even when I was saying earlier,

like the fact that people ask me to be a godparent

to their children, you know, like I don't have any

children of my own, but I'm, I'm godmother to five

boys and they're just like someone believes that I

am going to show up for them, pray for them, you

know, be a reliable spiritual guide and support

and fun on to, you know, like turn up and you

know, all of that kind of stuff and that and

someone's gone. Like that's someone I want my

child to be influenced by. Can you imagine a

greater accolade than that? You know, like I was a

drug addict, no one would leave me alone with it.

No self respecting parent would leave me alone

with their child. And now people are like, you've

got something that you can impart on my child that

I want them to have. That is like blows my mind

every time.

>> Julia: Thanks for listening to Things I Wish I Knew. I

know this episode is going to stay with me because

it made me think about how what we feed into our

brains is what our brains output. How about you?

We'd love to hear how Lauren's storey resonates

with you. And why not also tell us if you're

facing an experience you wish you knew how to look

at differently. It might just be something we can

help with. You can find out more about this and

other themes thinkingfaith.org. Thank you again

for listening. I hope you'll join me again next

time on Things I Wish I Knew.