JAMES GRASBY : We're having a short break over Christmas, but

we'll be back in the new year with the usual back when

stories. In the meantime, we wanted to bring you this bonus

episode, taking you behind the scenes on a cultural exchange

between two fascinating heritage sites.

And he was the first person from this part of the world to see

that iconic and now World Heritage Site and one of the new

wonders of the world that you are now custodians of.

William Bankes was an English adventurer who lived at the

National Trusts' Kingston Lacy. How did he become one of the

first people from Europe to visit Jordan's World Heritage

Site, Petra?

And what does the twinning relationship between the

National Trust and the Petra National Trust in Jordan have to

do with safeguarding the incredible history.

Have you ever imagined being a fly on the wall of history? Join

me for an inside view of the stories of people, places and

moments that made us.

I'm historian James Crasby. Lean in for a tale from time. Back

when.

Within the walls of Kingston Lacy lies a story of adventure

and discovery. How did William John Bankes, the man who

inherited a brick house and recast it in gold and marble and

fill it with treasure, become linked to one of the most

mysterious cities on earth?

He journeyed to Petra in Jordan, the city carved INTO the desert

rock, and traces of that journey echo today in artefacts he left

behind. Most importantly the relationship between Jordan and

the UK today are growing as the Petra National Trust has twinned

one of its properties with some from the National Trust to keep

heritage alive and fight climate change.

I'm walking up the drive at Kingston Lacy to meet Mirna,

Huda and Mo from the Jordanian Petra National Trust to reveal

something about William Bankes's connection with Jordan and to

learn more about the twinning relationship. Between the

National Trust and the Petra National Trust today.

How do you do? How do you do? Good, thank you. It's such a

thrill that you're here.

MIRNA: Yes, yes, we're excited.

JAMES GRASBY : Members of the Petra National Trust, here we

are at Kingston Lacy in Dorset, what we consider in the National

Trust to be one of the great treasure houses.

It brings a tear to my eye, seeing it again. I was curator

here for 25 years. It's called Kingston Lacy, Kingston, because

it was the king's place. The house was built in the 1660s for

the Banks family, who rose from relative obscurity to become one

of the most noble but untitled families in modern England.

For eight unbroken generations, they lived in it until it was

given to the National Trust in the 1980s. But the key to the

connection between Kingston, Lacey and Jordan lies with one

of the most extraordinary sons in the Bankes line.

Now, one of the quirkiest members of the Bankes family was

this chap called William John Bankes. Who was interested in

everything. He had a sort of delicious childlike attitude to

asking the question, why is the world like this?

Why do people in different countries believe things that we

don't in this country? How do they produce architecture and

civilisations in a different way to ours?

In the beginning of the 19th century, William Bankes went on

to study at Cambridge. He was particularly interested in the

Middle East and met other like-minded students, including

one who was to shape the adventures he was to go on.

Johann Burckhardt, the son of a silk manufacturer from

Switzerland, quirky and eccentric and like-minded,

William Bankes was fascinated by the world. He immersed himself

in the Arab language and Arab cultures and Muslim traditions

and couldn't wait to see the Middle East and Africa.

And he headed off and he travelled on his way really to

find the river Niger in Africa, but he went via the Middle East

and heard whispers of this astonishing complex of

buildings.

The complex was in fact the ancient city of Petra. Many of

its buildings were carved INTO the rose-red cliffs of southern

Jordan by the Nabataeans over 2,000 years ago. Once a thriving

hub of trade connecting Arabia, Egypt and the Mediterranean,

it's famed for its monumental facades, like the treasury and

monastery which survive to this day.

And he was the first person from this part of the world to see

that iconic and now World Heritage Site and one of the new

wonders of the world that you are now custodians of.

As it was before the days of cameras, Burckhardt noted down

as many details as he could about the location of Petra in

notebooks and aimed to publish them when he returned to Europe.

Sadly, he died in Egypt a few years after his visit. However,

while he was still alive in Cairo, he contacted William

Bankes.

Burckhardt sent a letter before he died to William Bankes,

saying, I hear, William Bankes, you're in the area, you're in

the Middle East.

Why don't you go and have a look at Petra? It is fantastic.

Burckhardt's letter included the details of his itinerary and how

to find Petra. And so in 1818, William Bankse found himself

with 11 mates in Jerusalem.

And they were dressed in local dress, they were acquainted with

the language, they understood to a degree the local traditions,

could navigate their way around the communities.

And with gold coins sewn to their underwear, with guides and

with pencils and paper, they found their way to Petra.

Bankes had travelled through Syria, Greece and Italy and were

skilled in creating technical drawings. They spent two days,

intense days, In May 1818, drawing at Petra. He returned to

the UK in 1820 and provided many keys for scholarship in Europe

to begin to understand Petra and its origins.

But the key thing when the Nabataean script, which he

recorded very accurately, that William Bankes, when he saw them

and compared them with other things that he'd seen, suggested

a date and also that they were Nabataean.

And also it takes credit for being the first person really to

bring to a scholarship in part of the world some of the early

images that were fundamental in the decoding, if you like, INTO

English, our culture. The heritage of your monuments and

your country, which created such an incredible excitement here.

There are a collection of William Bankes lithographic

stones still in Kingston Lacy today. These are smooth

limestone slabs that were used as early printing plates. The

images that Bankes sketched of Petra could then be easily

reproduced on paper. His work helped to stimulate a deep

appreciation of Jordanian culture in the UK and now the

team from Petra National Trust are here to further that

connection in the present.

So to have you here who are so deeply rooted not only in those

cultures but in... The day-to-day care and the

strategic future for those monuments in Petra is absolutely

thrilling.

MO: William Bankes went on an exchange at some point, exactly

like the one we're on.

We're going to be talking about Kingston Lacy, everybody, when

we come back.

It's very interesting to see that this kind of connection was

always there.

People were interested in this part of the world, we're

interested in this part of the world. This connection is not

new.

JAMES GRASBY : It's not new and it's cross-cultural, isn't it?

It's a human instinct and that lovely childlike inquiry.

MO: To explore.

JAMES GRASBY : To explore and to experience and to share in other

people's culture and to be gripped by other views. It's so

important, isn't it?

MO: It's literally how you grow.

JAMES GRASBY : Decades on from William Banks' historic journey

to Petra, the site has been designated a UNESCO World

Heritage Site. Featuring in the movie Indiana Jones in the late

1980s ensured its fame increased and millions of international

tourists now visit the site every year.

The Petra National Trust was formed in 1989 to protect it

from over-tourism, climate change and to keep traditional

Jordanian heritage alive. What does Petra mean to Jordanians

now? Mirna shares her thoughts.

MIRNA: It's very humbling to see Petra when you think about all

the civilizations that passed there. And it's really a

beautiful, beautiful sight to see. The most important thing

that I see in Petra and makes me so proud is built by an Arab

civilization.

And it represents me, my identity, my family, my history.

Jordan is in the heart of the world. That's how I see it.

JAMES GRASBY : Another member of the Jordanian team is Huda.

HARRY STOKES: I'm from a Bedouin tribe around Petra, and I've

spent much of my life deeply connected to Petra.

JAMES GRASBY : She is a Bedouin and grew up living a traditional

nomadic life, herding cattle and sleeping in tents near Petra.

HARRY STOKES: That experience gave me a passion for our food,

our songs, a tradition, and the historic links.

JAMES GRASBY : If you don't pass your knowledge on, what happens

to your cultural traditions?

HARRY STOKES: It will be lost, yes. And these days it's very

important to enhance awareness for the new generation how to

preserve and protect their cultural heritage by knowledge.

JAMES GRASBY : Huda has taught thousands of Jordanian children

the Bedouin customs that are so important to her. The Petra

National Trust. Wanted to use this experience and inspire

other young people in other sites around the country. One of

the projects they took on was the conservation and renovation

of a significant townhouse over a century old. Its name is Bayt

Al-Jaghbeer.

Mo, what's your role with the-?

MO: I'm the head of programs delivery and development at the

Petra-National Trust. My background is in architecture.

JAMES GRASBY : Do you ever see much water in Jordan?

MO: Rain is something that has definitely changed the way it

falls in some places in Jordan. Due to climate change, the

pattern is different. It used to rain a little bit throughout the

winter. Now it rains like three days, heavy rain, and then it

stops. And it's like the rest of this winter is just dry.

JAMES GRASBY : And the consequences of this are highly

significant, I would think. I mean, not only as humans.

MO: Of course, when you're looking at an old house that has

been designed to withstand rain over extended periods of time,

that is like a slow drizzle. And then suddenly just like give it

a huge amount of water.

JAMES GRASBY : The whole structure was at risk. Mo goes

on to explain the importance of the surrounding landscape and

how this exacerbated the problem.

MO: It's like this very intricate system of how the

water flows from the mountain to the valley and avoids those

places where people live and avoids the caves. So you end up

with flash floods, you end up with extra salt in the rock

which ends up breaking it.

JAMES GRASBY : So tell me what are the practical solutions that

you're looking at in order to manage this rainfall?

MO: You have to bring in experts in water and experts in heritage

and experts in architecture and experts in like

electro-mechanical systems. You all sit down on the same table

and you have a conversation. But at the end of it, you get out

with a solution that everybody can work with and everybody can

agree that this is the best way to go for the house. And so you

can maintain it for the following generations.

JAMES GRASBY : The team had to manage how the rainwater reached

the drainage, which meant excavating a floor to reach the

pipes.

MO: There was some cementious materials on the ground and so

they rubbed them off while they were like kind of removing them

they were like oh there's bedrock underneath this and so

they removed a little bit more and they were like oh the

original flooring is underneath the cement.

JAMES GRASBY : The find was hugely significant as the

original flooring had Jordanian designs from many years before.

The team had to carefully excavate 10 to 15 centimeters on

that whole floor before even beginning the work.

MO: Conservation is a process because it's not like a single

act that you do and while you're doing it you will discover new

things!

Like we were just supposed to show up dig five centimetres put

in like whatever we need to put in the tiles then we'll have a

beautiful new space with beautiful tiles that were

designed with like a local artisan and then we should like

they showed up there and they're like oh no this just changes our

entire plan now we have to do like now we have to excavate in

this part of this of the project what we're going to try to do is

to sample out different places where we're like okay we're

going to dig here see if the original flooring exists.

If it does, then we're going to have to excavate the entire

floor. If it doesn't, then great, we can start tiling. And

then we're going to go to the next room and kind of discover,

like we're going to discover things as the project goes.

JAMES GRASBY : That's wonderful. I mean, it's a wonderful example

of what one might describe as tangible heritage of something

dimensional in front of you. But there's a whole nother aspect of

your work, which you described as intangible heritage. What do

you mean by that?

MO: Intangible heritage is, for example, cooking and dance and

music and how these things have also been performed and done

inside these houses. I would say it is the stories of people who

lived inside these structures and these houses and these

cities or these spaces.

And whatever has happened inside of them, be that the actual

stories of the person, of their father and what he used to do

and the mom who took care of the kids and how they lived and

where they kept their kettle and how they slept.

JAMES GRASBY : The water management work at Bayt

Al-Jaghbeer has now been successfully completed with new

drainage systems.

The work has begun to use the space to share the intangible

heritage with young people in As-Salt. One of those

responsible for this sharing is Mirna. As part of the twinning,

she is working with Katie from the National Trust's Buscot and

Coleshill to see what they can learn from each other.

KATIE LAMB: I'm Katie Lamb and I'm the Senior Programming and

Partnerships Officer at the Buscot And Coleshill Estate and

also run the Children And Young People's Hub here as well.

JAMES GRASBY : Mirna describes the city in Jordan where the

team are based.

MIRNA: I'm from As-Salt. It's a World Heritage City. It's a

historical city that so many civilisations passed through

As-Salt. It's built on mountains and you see the houses like

they're on top of each other.

KATIE LAMB: The City Of Gold, am I right? It's beautiful.

JAMES GRASBY : The city is also famous for religious harmony.

MIRNA: It's well known for the Muslim and the Christian living

together in peace. It's a model for the world and we hope to

keep this heritage.

JAMES GRASBY : As-Salt sits on the old trade route between

Amman and Jerusalem, perched on three hills above the Jordan

Valley. And for centuries was a key trading and administrative

centre linking Bedouin tribes, farmers and urban merchants.

Hospitality was a key part of their culture.

MIRNA: The people, they're very welcoming. They are also very

generous. So if you happen to visit As-Salt, people will see

that you are coming from somewhere else. They will

immediately invite you for coffee or even a meal. Our

national dish is Mensaf. We enjoy it and we like to serve

it, share it with others.

JAMES GRASBY : Mensaf is Jordan's national dish, a feast

of slow-cooked lamb served on a large platter over rice. And

thin shrak bread, all drenched in a rich tangy sauce made from

fermented dried yoghurt. Katie was able to sample both coffee

and Mensaf on her recent trip to Jordan.

KATIE LAMB: It was fantastic. So the food while we were there was

absolutely exceptional and the coffee was very good. It was

very strong and had a smoky flavour which was really, really

lovely.

JAMES GRASBY : Katie witnessed first-hand the work the Petra

National Trust are doing with young people, highlighting to

them the value of their heritage and training them in traditional

skills and crafts.

KATIE LAMB: We had a fantastic evening where we went over to...

Yes, and we also got to meet a lot of the students that took

part and they created these beautiful ceramic fish which

they gave us which was really, really lovely and I've been

treasuring mine ever since.

JAMES GRASBY : Thousands of children have been trained up in

courses on the skills conserving heritage and even as

entrepreneurs working in the heritage arena. Many come from

challenging backgrounds.

MIRNA: We make sure that we include children with

disabilities. We work with the local communities that also

include Syrian refugees.

JAMES GRASBY : Jordanians of all ages travelled large distances

from around the country to meet Katie and her colleagues and

share their skills and Jordanian heritage.

KATIE LAMB: Within that evening, we heard about the amazing

people and their achievements within their time. It was

really, really inspiring. And their organisation is fantastic.

Thank you.

JAMES GRASBY : Now it's time for the Jordanians to meet a select

group of National Saturday Club students who have been on a

20-week course learning skills at Coleshill and Buscot, such as

blacksmithing, silversmithing and lime-plastering.

HARRY STOKES: My name is Harry Stokes and I'm a silversmith and

engraver.

I make boxes and I make vessels. There'll be some candlesticks on

the way soon. And all made traditionally, all made by hand,

by me.

JAMES GRASBY : Harry is in charge of a group of young

teenagers who are all learning the English heritage skills.

HARRY STOKES: Today they are working on chasing, which is an

ancient technique.... selectively denting metal to

create an image.

JAMES GRASBY : Chasing used to be on the school curriculum, but

it was cut many years ago and was a skill at risk of being

forgotten.

HARRY STOKES: Well, so chasing specifically, you're looking

back at ancient Egypt, as long as metal has been worked, it's

been worked by chasing. It's huge because within our culture,

it's become something which, for a very long time, we were really

revered for.

English silverware and English cutlery, especially hand-forged

in Sheffield, is the best. So to keep a part of that alive and

developing even more so is a huge part of our culture.

JAMES GRASBY : The cross-cultural conversation is

also alive in the skill of chasing.

HARRY STOKES: Chasing will be done in Jordan, so for some of

them this is familiar. We were talking about style and how it's

developed differently in different countries, so

hopefully for them they go back and say, oh, I know how that's

done, and that's strange, they do it slightly differently in

the UK, and it starts cross-pollinating.

YOUNG PERSON 1: I'm a historian, so all these heritage skills,

I'll carry along with me forever and I'll use them for the rest

of my life.

JAMES GRASBY : And the Petra National Trust team were

enjoying partaking in the silversmithing too. Mirna

reflects on the experience.

MIRNA: It was really wonderful. I just wanted to focus on the

work I was doing and enjoy it. Listening to the hammers takes

you back to our ancestors and it is actually really inspiring to

be able to practice such arts. I'm definitely keeping the piece

I worked on.

JAMES GRASBY : Katie and Myrna both expressed how much they

have learned from each other and are now making plans to further

connect the youth in Jordan and in the UK.

MIRNA: That would be really wonderful if we can implement

similar activities and also maybe do a little bit of

research about Coleshill. Maybe you can do the same about

As-Salt, a World Heritage City, and build bridges between youth

in Jordan and the UK.

KATIE LAMB: Yeah, that would be really, really wonderful to

achieve.

JAMES GRASBY : From William Bankes' explorations in the

Middle East over 200 years ago to the present day,

relationships between Jordan and the UK young people are being

empowered with a sense of shared history and the need to preserve

our legacy. Working together to adapt our heritage buildings and

crafts to deal with the effects of climate change.

Thanks for joining me for this special episode. Please do rate,

review and follow us on your favourite podcast app.

And why not check out our other nature podcast, Wild Tales with

Rosie Holdsworth. I'll be back soon with another podcast and

our usual series, Back When. See you then.